Let's Talk About the F Word!

In this episode, Penelope and Elizabeth discuss feminism, and what carrying the “feminist” label means to them.

Transcript

“Hi, my name is Penelope Sanyu, and I am welcoming you to the Hall of Femme. Here we imagine, we create, and we teach. In imagining, we are helping young women and girls to imagine brighter and better feminist futures.

We are creating a brave and safe space for them to explore and voice, and we are allowing them to teach other young women and girls around and about these feminist futures. And today, in the Hall of Femme, I'm hosting one of my favorite people in the feminist movement. Welcome with me, Ms. Elizabeth.

Hi Penny! Hi! Hi! How are you, Kemi? (Sigh!) I'm doing great, how are you? So I said, you're my favorite feminist.

There are so many other people out there who will kill me for saying you're my favorite because I keep telling them they are my favorite. I was also wondering. So what's the truth, Penny? The truth is you're all my favorite.

You're the parents. You're all my favorites. All my children are my favorites.

Then she goes ahead and holds this one’s hand as we watch TV. So what's the truth? The truth is I love all of you.

“Who is Kemi? Why do you identify as a feminist? Right, my name is Elizabeth Kemigisha.

I am a lawyer. That's my background. I like to call myself an organizer, right?

Campaigner, a yappist, I love to tell stories. So I really associate a lot with the work that Penny does with the many amazing women that she does this work with. I'm a mother to 74 plants.

Woooow! You counted them. I count, I count. I do count.

I need to count my plants. Yeah, I am a sibling. I am an auntie to a few people. I am many things.

Yes, I'm also a budding writer. So yeah, many, many things. Nice.

So today we're talking about feminism. And feminism is broad, really. I just, I never used to identify as a feminist.

Why Penny? Like when you, I didn't have the language, right? I knew deep down there was this thing that I am attracted to.”

“I am strongly believing in all these things. But if you asked me, are you a feminist? I'd be like, what's that?

Like I didn't have the language. I didn't know that everything I was doing was called feminism, that there was a bracket that it falls under. And today, looking back and seeing how all these things connect, I identify as a feminist.

So are you a feminist, number one? I do identify as a feminist. And I think I'll just really quickly tell you why Penny.

Because I don't think there's any other way. That's one. I've lived my life, all my life as a woman, as a girl, I was born a girl.

“And therefore, my life experiences have all been around me being a girl. So I don't think there's any other way because for me, it's been my experience, my every day, how I navigate waking up to go to school, what kind of subjects I do, how I get cared for at home, and how I'm caring for other people, my siblings, my peers, those that are older than me in the context of family. So because of that, I just felt like there's just no other way that I could identify as because I just felt like there's always something wrong with the way things were done.

But also, there were some very nice ways how things were done that needed to be spotlighted, right? So for me, I'm a feminist because I really think women are not second class citizens, girls, and I really think there's another way we can do things. Another way we can socialize ourselves without having to promote domination by one sex, by one class, by one.”

“I think there's another way of doing things. And then maybe another thing I'd like to share is I'm a feminist, I think because of how I was also raised. I come from a very humble background.

My sis, the other day, and I were talking and laughing. What do people mean when they say humble? But yeah, but I mean that in the sense how you read it in the blogs and magazines.

Right. And a lot of the difficulties of me navigating life, either going through school at university or selecting what subjects or care from those that were either my parents or guardians or caretakers for me at that time. So a lot of my experiences made me question, made me recognize, made me appreciate, but also made me mostly ask myself, what can I do to have a girl grow up in a better environment?”

“Not worried, not anxious, being seen as a full human being that can make decisions, that has autonomy. I think for me, those are some of the reasons that pushed me to be a feminist. Actively to doing the work I used to help my mother.

What do they say it in English? Balance books for a SACCO when I was younger. Oh my God.

Right? And I think because these women were really just women in the informal sector, business women, so not many of them really had experience with running businesses and all that. And a lot of the work that I used to do and the conversation I used to hear in there for me, even without her knowing, and I hope she can see this framed a lot of what I think about women today, some of the challenges that women face as they do business.”

“And that's why a lot of the work that I do right now is around economic justice and addressing the vulnerabilities that women face, participate in different economic activities at whatever level they are at. So for me, a lot of the things I used to hear, the stories from the women that experienced violence. I remember vividly, I think one of the group members of my mother's SACCO then was experiencing domestic violence.

But the way they used to casually talk about it, amused so much. Like, how can you talk about it? But why are you still there?

Why are you there? Why are they? And then so many years later, I get the answers to these questions, either through education or my own life experiences through the relationships that I nurture and etc.”

“So for me, my journey of what really has formed my feminism, why I'm a feminist, has really been a long journey from when I was a child, of course, like you, when you are a pre-teen or a teenager now, campus, you become more serious with how am I positioning myself? Because now you're being told to write things about things, things you used not to pay attention, right? But you also need to use the right words, right?

For the right things. And I didn’t also have the word feminism in my vocabulary, I didn't, but I knew, I saw there was a way boys got treated that was different from girls. But I thought it was problematic, right?

And for me, I feel like that's easy to get words for. But for things that we haven't experienced individually, I know that many times we may not be deliberate about finding those words to describe them. So for me, because I also didn't have the words to describe what to call myself a feminist and you know, understanding all this theorization and why it's important.”

“I think I began now to read. So I'd also like to add that a lot of African women that are doing this amazing work, Sylvia Tamale, Stella Nyanzi, Akullo Godiva, Maria Alesi, all these women that are writing, Rosebell Kagumire, you know, all these Ugandan feminists who started to organize them and write, to theorize these things, to say these things happen because of domination of one sex, right? And these women I know were also inspired by many other women who understood these concepts before them.

So for me, I'm a feminist because I'm a, but all that, yeah. No, I love everything that you say. I was reading an article today morning and they were talking about why African women don't quote African women when they write.

And I was like, wait, what? Who are these women who are writing and not quoting African women? Because I try to deliberately look out for African writers, African feminists that are putting a lot of good work.”

“The list is endless. You've mentioned but a few. But I try and deliberately make a conscious decision to quote people who are writing from Uganda, from Africa, from.

So it's good to know that the journey is also about reading and educating oneself. I want to take you a little back, because you said, you know, your mom shaped a lot of what you know. So when I said I didn't have the language of feminism, for me, even today, when you ask me, my mother asked me what is this feminist thing and what does it mean?

And I was explaining to her for me, I practice my feminism the way my religion has evolved. When I was born, I was born into something I didn't know, and then they baptized me in the Anglican Church. And then I studied Islam for six years.

And so I practiced Islam for a while. And then I became born again. And then I went to a Catholic school, and we were made to do the whole Catholic Mass, and I know everything around.”

“I was two, for about two years of my HSC. So in all those things, I have made a decision to say, this is what I want to practice, this is what I believe in. Yes, I've gone through all these things, but this is what I believe.

This is what I know is good for me and right for me, and I'm going to practice that. And so I was explaining to my mom that there are so many ways that I can explain this feminism thing to you. But I want to make it simple for you.

Do you believe that women are human beings? Yes. Do you believe they should not be segregated and put back?

Yes. Are you doing something about it? Then there's no other matter to resolve this.

You're done. On top of that, are you reading? Are you adding value to yourself?

Are you adding value to other women? Are you creating spaces for women to coexist? Are you doing all those things?”

“And so I want to ask you about your relationship with older feminists in the movement. What's been your experience in the feminist movement? Because I know that also on our journeys, some of us joined the movement as a women's movement.

Then we found out we are in the feminist movement. Then there are other movements. There's the SRHR movement.

There are so many other movements. Disability rights movement. Queer rights movement

How have you evolved in all these movements and what's working for you? I'll begin from your last question, Penny, to say, I think for me, what's working for me at the moment is recognizing the differences that we each have. I think… writes about that.”

“Recognizing and celebrating the differences that we both have. Recognizing here, I mean not just knowing that perhaps Penny is differently abled, so ABC is bound to happen, or she needs ABC protection to be able to participate in trade, or to do her usual carrying her body from one place to another. I think for me, I'm being guided by that.

A recognition that we are not similar. Men are also not similar to women. And I'd like to just mention that no one, or at least my feminism, let me speak for self, is not looking to have women be like men.

We are unique in how we are viewed, in how we do things, and no one is looking for that. So I need for men to rest assured, no one is trying to be a man. We are trying to be treated like human beings with full rights.

That while, what's surprising is that even before when we were dealing with slavery, there are many people who did not see a problem with owning a person. Right now, when you talk about owning a person, you've had people say, as if I'm a slave. “Shaaaa! when you feel you're being controlled, how you move, where you go, how you...

As if I'm a slave. Like, don't police me. There's a recognition that what?

That was extreme. But all these things keep like evolving, in how they show, if I could say, how they are manifested in our communities. Domination of males over females in many of our communities is no longer having James have a whip and whip you.

And chaining you physically. But we have James making sure that you're not voting. Meanwhile, James is making sure that there's a law that says even you, Penny, you're supposed to vote.”

“But if I put security, if I put an army at the particular points where you're supposed to vote from, then how am I supposed to vote? Knowing that Penny, a regular citizen in Uganda, has a very tricky relationship with military or with police, you get. So these things, the way they manifest need for us, and that's why I think I like that you talk about theorizing, writing these things, researching, asking the why, how, what, where question all the time.

I think for me, it's extremely important. So for me, my feminism is one like where I began from. It's informed by that.

The fact that I recognize that there's a difference between all of us, between women and men, between the different women. I'm not the same as a 30-year-old girl in Karamoja right now. Right?

I was telling someone, I met 12-year-olds. We are all girls. We are all in our 30s, but we are not the same.”

“We all know about that strategy to keep girls in school. I know about the Children's Act that makes sure children are protected. We all have those equal rights that are enshrined in our Constitution.

And we are all existing under the same regime of government, under the same resources, but we are all different. And we are both, we all have different strengths, but also we are incapacitated by different things, which brings me to my next point. Class, the different things that differentiate us.

Our struggles are not the same, but there is also no one single struggle for one person. You get, you see right now, Penny, I think before you are doing work to make sure that women are able to use perhaps the public space freely, let no one make it difficult for women to use the public space. But right now we are also thinking, I know you're organizing with feminists that are thinking this digital space, how do we make it safer?

Before you even all that, then AI generated nude pictures are in the picture. But then my clients in Bundibugyo do not know AI. That is not a problem that they experience.

So for me, a lot of those differences made me realize, that indeed we must suffer these different things, but these things affect us all differently. And recognizing, like I said from the start, Penny for me is where it begins. If we do not recognize our struggles, then we are not going to work together.

And that leads me to the, where you began from your question of what is my relationship, or broadly what is the relationship of younger feminist women right now, organizing with older feminists, right? So I'll use myself and several other women I'm organizing with at this point. I think one of the things that older feminists, or senior feminists have done is really prepare the space for us.”

“I think there's been space. There's so much work that has been done to ensure that we have, even affirmative action in parliament. These were feminists, Ugandan feminists, right?

Doing this amazing work of ensuring that there's representation of women, that women have voice, right? From the conversation on voting, where the first wave of feminists began, now women can vote. But what are the additional challenges that make it difficult for them to work, right?

So older or senior feminist women in Uganda have done that. But we're not beginning from scratch. But currently in the institution where I'm organizing the work that I'm doing, which is an association of women lawyers (FIDA), that I'm doing work right now on the marriage bill, which began as a marriage and divorce bill over 50 years ago. Right?

Women like Rhoda Kalema were here. And they have put a brick to this. A brick.”

“Women like, I'll come to the next, I'll come to Solome Nakaweesi, she has been there. Women like Professor Nassali has been there.

Women like Professor Tamale have been there talking about this thing. We have many other brilliant grassroots feminists that have been on this journey of saying, this thing needs to change, it's not working. It does not represent the lived realities of many women and men in this country.

I am doing that work. And currently, I'm actually using justifications that women like Rhoda Khalema. Put down.

Put down for me. To say women are equal to men, and the Constitution says that. That the Constitution says, while you get into a marriage and while you exit, and during it's, you know, that you have equal rights for both of you.”

“And I believe that those things that they did to make sure they were in the Constitution, to make sure that we had a marriage and divorce bill then, to make sure that we have a bill right now, it's been some of the older feminists doing that amazing work. Secondly, I think some of the things that I'd like to appreciate and the learnings that I'm getting from older feminists is the importance of theorization. I don't think I've been in a feminist space before speaking about the movement, growth, the challenges, and women have not talked about, the importance of theorization.

I'd like at this point to mention that theorization is not a classist move, guys. It's not classist to ask that we read. I was just going to ask you who theorizes, because there's also this narrative that theorizing is for the likes of Sylvia Tamale.

You need to be a professor, you need to have a law degree, you need to have... Me, I'm not feminist enough, I can't theorize. Also, what is theorizing?”

“What are those things? Omanyi you feminists use big words. Not at all. I know that that's been a huge challenge, I know, and when we talk about theorizing, people are like, why are you bringing in that luzungu?

For us, I'm living this thing, and I'm doing the actual work to address the problem that I'm facing. And rightfully so, I think different things from where we began, from our forming and influencing our feminist journeys. Right?

And theorizing is basically putting something in theory, that asking the question. Academia, the other day I was having a conversation, someone was saying, Academia is such a messed up space. Someone will say, in this paper, I'm going to break down, I'm going to...critique

Like, for the first four words you've never had in your life, you need to go to a dictionary. How are you breaking this down for me? But away from that, theorizing is really putting things in theory, writing, asking the important questions, right?”

“These days when I do not write something, I'll forget it. I need to calendar, I need to write it in my notebook, I write it in my notes. So when I wake up in the morning, it's the first thing I see.

So I think that goes for also any politic, right? That's why we have these, what do they call them? Not resumes, these things that political parties, like...policy briefs?

Yes, those that say this is what we aim to do, and NUP comes from a background of this nature. And we are using this form of organizing because we believe young people need to be represented. Feminists also do that, and it's not a thing that only elites do.

Because writing can happen in many languages, right? Many grandmothers, many mothers, many other feminists outside the elite space are writing. But are we recognizing that?

You ask an important question. Who is doing the writing? Who is doing the documentation of our lived experiences to inform policy?”

“Because one of the things as feminists we are interested in is changing policy, right? Because in policy is where we find our responsibilities and what the law guarantees that we are supposed to have, right? And that's where the most higgie-haggers lie because in not understanding the policy, then people get lost there.

Because if I don't have a law saying that I have a right to vote, it means that it's not anywhere that I should vote. So I can work up one day and say, I don't have money to make sure I vote, and you won't vote. So same to the feminist movement, theorizing, writing these things, asking those important question of why.

Why is it that the organizing of women that were affected during the war in Northern Uganda is different from what is happening in Bundibugyo or Kasese, where we know there is also conflict happening? Same conflict areas, but organizing is different. It's important that we are theorizing because we ask why we are doing the work we are doing.”

“It's important that we ask this question. The moments when I feel that it's working. Even to check one's self, to check your privilege, to check your...

Why am I in this thing, really? Why am I annoyed when I see Stella Nyanzi and she's undressing? Right? Is it because I don't recognize the.

There are many other women that have undressed, the women in Apaa undressing for their land, right? But why do you have a problem? Even the late Barbara Allimadi, when they undressed and took off, you know as a protest.

I think these things have happened. You ask yourself why. So we theorize to ask ourselves the why questions, and then the how are we doing the work.”

“And I think the important of also theorization is visibilizing some of the work, some of the issues that some of the older feminists have done, right? And this is really, I don't know if I'll be stepping on some fingers, but I think it's important, and it speaks to a current campaign that I've spoken about, Penny, on the marriage bill. That I remember that a lot of presentations, a lot of recommendations that have been made, there are questions like, but I remember there's this day in 2000, so and so we sat at Grand Imperial, and we agreed, where was this?

Where is this thing? Hon. So and so. What's different now? What's different?

And this is really a critique to all of us that are organizing around this work, that we must write, we must document. And it's important who is documenting, who is being documented, who is speaking, who is financing this work. All those things are important.”

“So in regards to your question, Penny, and rounding this one up, is I think a lot of senior older feminists have done a lot of theorizing for us to understand why they were doing the things they were doing, the way they were doing them, why it's important that we recognize these things. So yeah, I think that, so I'd like to say with those two pointers really, and broadly to say, I think a lot of the work I'm doing right now is premised on a strong foundation that was formed by those feminists. And that's not to say that everything they did, they did so perfectly.

And a lot of the things that they were theorizing, then they were the first people to write on about here, in the context- and I am sure they are still retheorizing. You get it. Right now, I could say marital rape is a major issue because police crimes reports are showing us that sexual violence between partners has increased.

Perhaps it was there then, but it wasn't. Yeah. You see, it wasn’t perhaps as prevalent as it is right now.”

“So there are a few weaknesses here and there, right? And I will speak about them if you give me an opportunity. But I think a lot of the work that I'm doing now is premised on the work, on language that has been created and thought about and explained by older feminists.

So, Kemi, I love where this conversation is going because I am going to speak for the younger, younger. I am not young in any way. Me, I am young.

The definition of young can also be a whole conversation here. But I am going to speak for the very, very young people that walk into my space or our spaces as people who are organizing right now and ask the question of where is this feminist movement you people are talking about? Where is it?

Where can we find it? Where can we touch it? How do we become a part of it?”

“But also, how do we contribute to what you're talking about? The theorizing, the organizing, the thought-provoking processes, how do we get to be involved in these spaces? Because it also feels like there's, I don't want to use the word gatekeeping, but it also feels like there are spaces we can't enter because those are the Matembe spaces, those are the Sylvia Tamale spaces, and then there's the Penelope generation, then there's the Kemi’s, then there's the younger ones who are, we don't know how to use Twitter, us, we just see them on Twitter.

So how, where can people find this movement? You've told us what the journey has been. But where is this thing you people call the feminist movement?”

“And yes, whereas I can read about decolonization from a book I have bought about Sylvia Tamale in a bookstore, all these organizing spaces, how do I get into them if I am new to that space? I agree, Penny, I think there's been so many conversations around. And I also just give you like experience from the institution where I work, where we see many younger women, we do have programs that are targeting, bridging that gap between organizing of young people and then the older people that have been there before us.

And a lot of what I'll share is from that, from my learnings of that. And true, it kind of feels like gatekeeping sometimes. But it's also because we imagine, and I don't know if that's what other people also do, there's an imagination that there's this particular, like it's like education.

That you go into Makerere, you study feminism, you go S3, S4, S6, then Makerere, then yeah. Feminism is a belief, right? In a belief in inequality and equity of all genders, right?”

“In uprooting of a system that contributes to domination of women, a system that is dominated by mostly men, right? And takes away the autonomy of women. So we are all interested, I want to believe, all feminists are interested in liberation of women, right?

Addressing the different isms, those ones that you hear those people talk about, capitalism, classism, tribalism, ageism, you know, heteronormativism, all those things, to address all those things that make it difficult for women to enjoy their freedoms and liberties that are enshrined in constitution and all those other things, right? Or those that are inherent to us as human beings. So it kind of sometimes feels like that, but it's not.

So, feminism is a belief. So there are different groups of feminists organizing. Earlier when we were preparing for this, I was chatting with Penny about how there are so many movements that you never know where to begin.”

“But I think for me, how I'm handling this is recognizing where my strengths are, right? Letting my life experiences inform what I invest in. I'm privileged, I'm not going to say lucky, I'm privileged to have a job that allows me to do that.

That allows me to contribute to that. That women need to have equal rights in different places here and there. However, I know there are a lot of women that are not in the NGO space or any community-based organization.

In fact, the only organizing they might know of is perhaps Mother's Union and your SACCO that you save money. And the things they are telling you, you also have many questions around them, right? So we have those issues.

We have those, right? So it's important for you to recognize that there is no class, there is no particular room, there is no particular district, there is no space where you will go that you walk into. And they'll tell you, now here you've entered the Ugandan woman feminist movement.”

“A movement is made up of people. For those that may not know what a movement is, it's made up of people that perhaps share a goal. They are working towards something.

And for the feminist movement, like I've mentioned, fighting patriarchy and fighting for liberation of women in all their diversities. So different groups form, depending on what works. How women in Pader are organizing is on the same as how women in Kikoni that happen to be at the university are organizing.

So there is no particular place you're going to walk into for someone to tell you, here is the women's movement, and this is what you're going to take as class one, begin here. However, there are different groups organizing, and I'd like to encourage anyone that is watching this, organize with your people. And organizing means different things, but is supposed to be done a certain way.

Do you believe in the same thing? You may not, but you have a broad idea. Or for us, we would like for girls to stop being bullied when they use public transport.”

“For you, perhaps that's your issue. You organize around that. You know, sometimes when you use the word organize, people think about hitting the streets, doing what?

Organizing is many things. It could be doing research. It could be you supporting Penny.

You are not in the NGO space. And I'd like for us to not conflate the two. Feminism as a movement and then NGO.

Feminism is not only practiced by NGO women. I have a bunch of friends who call women in the NGO space NGO women, and we are described bitenge, we tie on our heads. The headgear.

You NGO women, but yes, NGOs are not the feminist movement. Movements are made up of individuals that agree or believe in a particular goal. I hope that gives you a picture that there is no particular room you are going to walk into at Femme Forte, at FIDA, at Akina Mama, at UWONET or wherever.”

“And then you will find a room where there is a women's movement stationed there. However, I would like to also speak about your question, Penny, when you ask, where does someone start from? Begin with you.

I think the self, and I like how Bell Hooks writes about the self. Self-versus community and etc. Begin with self.

Self-reflection for me is, I think, a very important thing before you're involved in any active work with community. I call myself an organizer because I believe in Bell Hook’s feminism that believes in community, love and community. There's a lot of healing there.

There's a lot of liberation there. There's a lot of exploration of the differences, the similarities, how we can grow each other. So for me, I believe in that.

But I think it begins with self, a reflection on what you see as unfair. If you do not see something as unfair, I do not think you're going to be engaged. I was telling someone the other day, we invest in what we are interested in.”

“I know people who do not know what's happening in the Premier League. They've switched off. Because it's not of interest.

Football is not of interest to me. So I will not invest in that. Right?

So if you yourself, you've not reflected and said banange, I need to know this thing. Or because of the way I've lived my life, I recognize that thing ABCD is not right. That there's something that someone can do.

This someone may not be me, but I'm going to do ABC towards that. Which begs the question, and maybe to even reflect with you, Penny, should every one of us be doing something? Should everyone be doing something in the movement?

I believe so. I believe so. And I'm not saying that if you're for you in a particular movement, hit the streets.

There are many other ways, like I said. It's not one thing. I think one of the things, Kemi that also has shaped my activism is understanding, again, the self-reflection, but also understanding that we all contribute at different levels.”

“They are mobilizers. They are organizers. They are people who will just...

They are negotiators. They are diplomats. They will just make a phone call.

Things will happen. They are people who are thinkers. And for me, I don't need to be anywhere.

I will sit down and think. And I've asked myself, where do I... Where's my strength?

If Kemi will just snap and 1,000 people show up, that's not my strength. Maybe my strength is in making sure that when these 1,000 people show up, this is the order in which they are going to be, you know, putting themselves together. And then maybe mine is to think through if we are now together, we are organized, what are we going to say?

How are we going to say it? We all bring different strengths to the table. And for me, it's in understanding that, one, the difference you talked about, but also in understanding that, I don't have to do it all.

I don't have to do it all. I can bring my little contribution and that's it. That's my win for the movement.”

“And I think the failure for us to recognize that everyone has a different role to play is also a problem. So that's why you went for saying, why did they hit the streets? These people, they are telling the government badly.

These traders, for them, they've talked badly. Why are they closing the shops? Because we are not thinking very well many times.

We are not internalizing these things. We are not doing the active work, and it's not for you to do all that time. So to respond to the first part of your question, Penny, where you asked the younger feminists feel like there's a lot of gate keeping.

And I want to say in addressing the problem, is recognizing what your strength is. And also for the senior or older feminists, recognizing what are people bringing to the table? How are you communing with people that are not agreeing with you?

Right? I know that many times it's difficult for younger feminists to organize with older feminists, because we believe or they believe. Ideologies are different.”

“We believe we need a shift. The other day someone asked me, so what is currently the concern of the women's movement or the feminist movement in Uganda? Is it voting rights of women?

Is it sexual violence? Is it education? Can it ever be one concern? What is it?

And I was also thinking, do we have a portfolio somewhere as a movement where we would say, this year... What's our manifesto? What is our manifesto saying?

And where are we coming from addressing that? Are we addressing issues of sexual harassment in politics and etc? So that's also important for us to think about.

What are you bringing? Is it important that I'm bringing something? And numbers are important because I do still believe numbers are important.

What is the person bringing to the table? That is one. Then secondly, a recognition that the space is for everybody.

I think those are cores. Feminism 101, right? Where we began from.”

“That we are different. Our paths are different. Our discrimination is different.

How I'm discriminated against is different from how my mother will be discriminated. Or from how a girl that has not gone to school is being discriminated against. A woman who is going to university but is not a lawyer is getting treated in certain spaces.

So while we are suffering all this discrimination, recognizing that we are all still suffering in one way or the other. And also going back, there is no single struggle. Your struggles do not have to be the same as Matembe’s

I promise you. They do not have to be the same as Winnie Byanyima’s. And they could never be anyway.

Also, I know a lot of what we do, a lot of what to say. Our behaviors are influenced a lot by how we are raised, the spaces we are existing, the work that we are doing now. So I'd like to say that.

Then fourthly, allow me to sneak this one in Penny. And because many times when you talk about feminism, the women's movement, a lot of people run to NGO. The NGO is a very limited way of organizing”

“That's just a vehicle. Femme Forte came to say, let us go and look and beg for money from people that associate with our cause to give me money to be able to do this work. FIDA will go, UN Women, and say, give us money for this thing, because we believe in it.

And if we got a team of 10 in Karamoja region, they're able to respond to these problems. It's just a vehicle through which we are organizing. Right? But different individuals in our communities, in the circles where we belong, in families where we belong, friends, in the online space where you have a thousand followers.

There's a lot of work that you can do. So you don't have to walk into a room as a young feminist. But I'd like to say that I do recognize those challenges, because as we grow, our priorities become different as feminists, right?

And as also younger feminists are coming up, their struggles seem to be a bit different. But all the same, meanwhile, with what many of those women have suffered. So I think for me, it's going to come from a recognition of everybody's contribution and “where we are at the moment.

We cannot speak in a vacuum, recognition of the context within which we are organizing. No, my mind is going back to your community and individualism because I'm also very aware that today, things have shifted. Community, the way we were raised in it, is totally different.

And evolution is okay. It's just that right now, with the whole narrative around self-care and things have changed, everybody is Penny for Penny. And then, yeah, you can come in later, but so that I want you to talk about, because you organize, you're into organizing, how are you building community vis-a-vis individualism?

And what are the challenges you are experiencing as you organize in the feminist movement, as we bring this to a good packaged wrap up? What are those challenges that…you've mentioned some. But for me, the biggest challenges is how we are organizing as community and how we are organizing as individuals and how that two are refusing to marry.”

“Yet they should, because the individual is a person that you are communing with. But we always say the person is political, and yet in politicizing the personal, we are not involving community. I'd like first to say, Penny, and as we wrap up, that I think for me this, and well, we may not have the time to get into it, the difference between Western feminism, and without confusing anyone for them to start saying, is this radical?

There are those that are radical, there are liberals, there are those that say beat boy children, there are those that say all those things. Without that whole confusion, Western feminism and African feminism, and that was bound to be there, because different histories. And I think one of the things that African feminisms have done for us was visibilizing the role of community, the role of community, the specifics.

You know, we have a context that is different from the West. We experienced colonialism in a different way, right? We have things to do with ethnicity, and we know that community is an important part of African culture, right?”

“So that's one, I just wanted us to begin there, that there's already a recognition that Western feminism, for example, is totally different. And one of the ways in which African feminisms are different is because they recognize the individual, the self, but also on how we deal with community, how do we build community to address these things and all those things that are specific to our African history and as African women. So one is, I think, where do I begin?

I think, yes, Penny, the whole talk of self-care, but also recognizing that we need to step back, rethink all the time, have a break, get back into it, and etc is one of the reasons why we see the failing of those two to gel. But I'd like to say that it's a wrong thing, it's a wrong way of doing things. When Bell hooks talks about love of community and the belief in accountability, and that's one of the things-And we don’t even talk about love. 

Love is a taboo. When you talk about love, we say why are you talking about love at the workplace? Are you mad?”

“Yeah, you get it. That's community you're dealing with. So love and accountability are a major part of community, which are also a major part of the feminist movement.

And also another thing that the movement brings into play and takes away from it is accountability. The way Bell hooks explains it. To be accountable to somebody, to other people, to be contributing to the growth of this whole huge thing beyond yourself.

And the failure for that is I think patriarchy, and that's my opinion, a combination of patriarchy and capitalism. A lot of capitalist practices are very individualistic. We are pushing for profit over life.

I am pushing to be the wealthiest woman from Kabale right now. I'm pushing to be the only woman. Like so that what?

When you're the wealthiest, then what? How am I getting that wealth? By getting cheap labor, probably from Bakiga, in the village.”

“Who are not going to negotiate because they don't have the power to negotiate? Thank you. So are we making this analysis to realize why we are in this place?

That when we speak about community, we talk about accountability. Accountability of self, first then to community. So I think for me the failure of recognizing that the individual and community comes from still forces of capitalism and patriarchy.

When those two meet, it's a whole dangerous affair altogether. Because there is this push that I want to be the only woman in this, and to be the first woman to be at this. It's a very good thing that you are the first woman there, then how about more?

Then what? So I think it's important for us to see that. So what brings the challenge in organizing because of the failure and because of those challenges that you also bring, individualism and etc, I think is one is that we are not moving together.”

“We are not, there's a lot of difference, right? That we are failing to use to our advantage. The anti-gender movement is strong.

The push back is strong. It's organized. It's financed. It’s well-funded.

Meanwhile, as we are failing to agree, even on the smallest of things, the smallest of things, that marital rape is actually a big problem. That actually, girls should be able to get free pads in school. That when we have companies that are selling, their idea is profit.

And it means they will not care that a child in Napak has pads. So because of that, there's difficulty of organizing because if we don't agree on what I believe is important, then we won't do. So we are all failing to communicate at that front, failing to recognize what my priorities are, what the priorities of particular communities are, and creating space for them.”

“Then secondly, I think also, and in closing, the other day someone asked, how come we can collect money for a baby shower? And we get all the money we need for the cake for the what, for the what. But how many times do we have causes to collect money to finance these things that are successful?

Not very many. And that's for us a reflection you get for us. How are you talking about community if you're not financing?

Someone may say, shaaaaa, we can't be collecting money for pads, the government should provide. It's not providing now. That's why there is period poverty, there is all these problems, and there are institutions and individuals and groups that are doing something towards that.

So I think for me, if we address that, and if we deliberately thought about financing, our things, right? And this one, we can, it's a whole discussion. If we think about local solutions to local problems, which I think feminism really does, addressing the problems in the context, recognizing the context, I think we'll be able to go far.”

“Then lastly, careerism. The fact that a lot of feminists actually, all the feminists are getting into careers, I also want to retire as the UN rep. Of course.

So a lot of feminists that are older, are getting out of the system and stepping back. NGO, putting, organizing within the NGO, is also another challenge that we are facing.

So if it's not an NGO, if you don't have a structure, you don't have an MOU with a donor, if you do not have these particular, audited accounts, you don't have structures, you're not getting money to do the work. That's also drawing a challenge to the feminist movement. Innovation is one of the ways we can fight this.

Let's innovate. We can never stop innovating. And that's why you see there are many feminists online right now, organizing across Uganda.”

“This conversation mostly touched Ugandan feminists, because we're talking about this context, but so many things are happening, of course, using the digital space. So that is important. So we must innovate.

We must go back to basics. Why are we here? How are we here?

And why is the context like this? Then I think we'll be able to create some change. Interesting.

So finally, finally, we're going to wrap this up, because I know feminist conversations are dope. You just don't want them to end. And I know that so many of you out there have been tickled both by what Kemi is saying, but also the things that you're witnessing in your lives and the questions you've been sitting with.

What's your final say on this feminism thing? What do you want people to take out? But also for me, what resources are there that we can go to and learn about all these things because you've said many things, and people are tickled.”

“They're like, wait, wait, wait, I know that thing, but where can I learn more about it? Where can people go? And also your parting shots as we close.

Yeah, one, I'd like again to encourage us to read, guys. And you don't need to read big books, by the way. Not those big, big books.

A quick Google search, African feminism and sexual reproductive health rights. African feminism and abortion. And they will tell you what they believe, what's the stance, why do we say abortion rights are part of sexual reproductive health rights.

So for those that are able to, and I know this is very elitist when I talk about reading and the digital space using it to your advantage. I'm speaking to a particular demographic of women or men. But going back, also conversations with people that came before us.”

“Your mother may not be a feminist, your grandmother may not be a feminist, but there are things they are going to tell you that will inform you. They will change your perspective about things. The fact that there are things that our mothers use not to eat, that we eat now, that's a shift.

But it did not shift in one day. And one family, it began with one family and another and another and another. So I think that will be important.

Secondly, I think it's important outside the reading and outside what the online space is giving us to physically be touching base with who we are within communities. Guys, I don't know why we are priding ourselves in not knowing who our neighbors are. Man, I don't know.

My neighbor has not been there for two weeks. Man, I don't know. A guy could have died in his house!

Right? There's a lot of individualism. And for some people, there are many reasons why.”

“But I think we need to go back to thinking about community. And I don't mean community in the sense of how it was before, but in the sense that makes sense now in the way we have all evolved. I think that will be important.

And then in terms of parting shots, I really think that each one of us has something that they can do. You don't need to get on Twitter and tweet. That may not be your space.

You may not need to come to FIDA, to go to parliament and say, this thing will not work for us no. Where you are. Even changing your thought process is part of your feminism journey. How are you thinking about children that are less privileged?

How are you thinking about your domestic worker at home? What questions are you asking yourself? What question are you asking them?”

“Are you asking yourself why we are dealing with such a place where there are prices that are continuously going up? Are we asking ourselves why we can no longer, for example, export certain raw products? All these huge questions have answers at our level where we are, and it's important that we are reflecting.

So for me, as a parting shot, self-reflection. Find out what your contribution is, and let us begin there. Yeah.

Don't you just love Kemi? One of her biggest strengths is making complicated things very simple and down to earth. I hope that in all these big feminist things you've been encountering, she has brought it down to a space where you can relate with feminism, understand it, and also be challenged to go and read more, interact more, and spend more time with feminist theory, feminist theory, and that you can form your own thoughts and write them down and share those thoughts with the world to also interact with, or with your friends in your small circle at home, to interact with and learn more and grow.”

“So thank you so much for walking with us in the Hall of Femme. Until next time, bye-bye.”