Sexual Assault Awareness Month: Power, Consent and the Reality of Sexual Violence

Sexual violence is more than what we’ve been taught to recognize. In honour of Sexual Assault Awareness Month, Femme Forte's Samantha Agasha sits down with Kamagara Editah, a human rights defender and legal advocate, alongside Tracy Ivy Nakayenga from the Human Rights Awareness and Promotion Forum, to unpack consent and how power, patriarchy, and institutions shape harm and silence, while grounding the conversation in accountability, belief, and where support begins.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi, and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Hall of Fame podcast by FEM40 Uganda. My name is Samantha Agasha. With me today, I have two amazing ladies, and we are going to be having a conversation around Sexual Assault Awareness Month, and I will let them introduce themselves briefly. But, ladies, um, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Thank you. Um, I think both, not I think, I know that both of you are first-time guests. So on this podcast, we do three things. We imagine, we create, and we teach. So we imagine better and brighter feminist futures, what they look like, and then we create a space for young women and girls to voice their opinions and to have conversations that contribute to wider conversations around the women's rights movement, the women's rights movement, and the feminist movement, both in Uganda and globally. And then we also teach and then train these young girls how to teach uh their peers, um, all the things that they have learned along their feminist journeys. And yeah, so basically that's what all of them is. So I am so excited to have you to have this conversation really because it's timely. Uh yeah, I think let's get into it. I will let my immediate neighbor introduce herself first.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Um, hello everyone. My name is Tracy Ivina Kayenga, and I work with Human Rights Awareness and Promotion Forum, IRAF. I am a feminist, I'm a human rights advocate, and yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

Hello everyone. It's exciting to be here in this month because it's an intriguing month. Um, Kamagara editor, I'm a feminist and I'm an advocate of a high court. Um, I work with Vista Foundation Uganda, and I'm so glad you invited us on that ship.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Okay, thank you, ladies. I guess uh we'll just get into it because there's a lot to talk about. Um, but I guess let's start by grounding our conversation on why we are having it now. I know I mentioned in the introduction that that um APO is Sexual Assault Awareness Month. So let's just try and unpack that a little bit. Um, for the listeners or watchers, wherever you are catching this podcast from, Sexual Assault Awareness Month is basically a time where um everybody that's advocates, that's survivors, that's um loved ones of survivors, that's communities come together really to raise a to raise awareness around um the topic that is sexual violence, to um raise resources and pool um talent and all these things, and really with the focus of being, uh being how do we uh prevent sexual violence, how do we bring the numbers down, looking at what the global numbers are and what um continental and eventually Uganda numbers are. So uh for our listeners and watchers, that is what uh basically sexual assault awareness month is about. Um the first question I think I would like to ask so we can break it down for uh the people watching us is what does sexual violence look like? What does it mean? What's in the word?

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Okay, um, thank you. So sexual violence, um, maybe let me first speak to sexual assault and then sexual harassment and the quantinum that is sexual violence. So sexual violence refers to any violence or violent acts that happen, but that are mainly skewed towards a sexual manner. So this can be either assault or harassment. And when we are speaking about sexual assault or sexual harassment, sorry, yeah, sexual harassment, we are speaking about the any unwanted, um, unwanted uh behavior of a sexual nature that occurs without explicit uninformed consent. So that can be sexual assault. So this can be unwanted touches, it can be indecent assault, it can be rape, it can be attempted rape, it can be defilement, anything that happens without the other person's consent and that is unwanted. Then with sexual harassment, um assault usually is action and harassment too is action, but with harassment, it's it's unwanted behavior that makes someone feel uncomfortable. Someone feels uncomfortable. So it could be those jokes, you know, all of us who've engaged with border-border men in Kampala. You're just minding your business and walking, and you know, someone says something inappropriate to you, they cut call you. Um, it can be online, you know, some a person, a woman posts a picture of herself, and then people are in the comment section are making all manner of inappropriate jokes. And the continent has even changed now, especially with the advancement in technology. We have technology-assisted sexual violence, where you find that people are now prompting AIs, for instance, to undress women. I think there was a time on Twitter when or ex when people were, you know, a lady posts a photo and someone prompts and says, um, undress this woman, you know. So that can be though that is sexual harassment. So yeah, that's what I can say about it.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Okay. Um, so uh you mentioned something in your introduction that I think would be nice to shed a little bit of light on. Uh, you mentioned something um uninformed consent, and I thought um we should talk about that because uh I feel like people like to act that it is this big um complicated um word, which it is not. So I think uh it would be very important to first of all um define what informed consent is so that uh people watching us can understand.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Okay. So informed consent is um I I would break it down into the acronym PRIS, which if you've engaged in any conversations around consent, you know what PRIES stands for. So it is freely given, meaning that somebody is not coerced, someone is not threatened to be able to consent, which is basically agreement. Consent is agreement, right? Then reversible, that it can be taken back at any time, that I could consent to any sexual act on Monday, and on Tuesday I change my mind, right? Or I can consent to it, and as we enter the room, I say, you know what? No. So it can be reversible, then it has to be enthusiastic, meaning that someone actually wants to do whatever is intended to be done to them. So if you see someone um hesitating or they say yes, but it's like you know, it's it's not yes, it's not enthusiastic. Then there are there's issues around consent, then um uh fr i informed. Informed, I spoke, I spoke about informed. But informed, it has someone has to know what exactly is going to be done to them or what exactly is going to happen to them, right? And then um it also has to be specific. So just because I've consented to a specific act doesn't mean that I've consented to all acts, right? So if I consent to a specific thing, it is not on you to then think that because I've said yes to this thing, I've said yes to everything, right? So at every stage, at every level, when the contract that we agreed on at the beginning is going to change, the person then has to inform the other person. So that is what I can speak about consent. So if any of those things are missing, if it's not freely given, if it's not enthusiastic, if it's not informed, if it's not specific, then if it's not if the person does not have an opportunity to reverse their decision, then their issues around uh violations are introduced.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Um, this is a good breakdown, and I think it brings me to the next question, which I think I will direct to a editor. It's not, I don't want to say it's specifically a question, but you've seen um from what uh Tracy has introduced, people online are always talking about oh, women are now complicated these days, you have to make them sign Simanya B Siju before they come to your house, and da da da. And so I think she spoke to something that was very important that even if I've agreed, I can change my mind. So uh these because we remember we talked about like the jokes that normalize uh this kind of violence and things like that. How does that work? I don't know if uh you are able to if you get uh what I was trying to okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Yeah, I think we are going to look at it in a perspective of the current society we live in is in denial of what sexual assault, sexual violence or harassment is, yeah. They have normalized conversations of sexual assault towards women, and it has been for a long time uh supported in society. But culture-wise, uh with the patriarchal system we are living in. So if you on the level of what she has said online and you look into the comment section, you're having people pull down someone's right to their body autonomy. However, it's facilitated by the owners of the tech company because they're allowing anyone to use tech as they would wish without giving basis or fallback for those who are survivors or for those who may fall victim to these acts of these different people. So that goes back to how normal society sees sexual violence. It is a normal conversation, which should not be a normal conversation. It should be an everyday conversation, but showing awareness and trying to end it. However, they are perpetrating it like it's something or an achievement or an everyday brush of comedy, which is wrong. And that's why it's very important that we have a man that greatly focuses on it and then reminds society and the institutions, the cloud states, judicial bodies, the enforcement officers to wake up and do their job actually. Because we have some basically fair laws that meant act, but we have those that might not act, and then also put on a pedestal these people who are perpetrators. So that's how we should look at the conversation. How normal should it be? It's an everyday conversation, it is something we should keep talking about every day. However, we should not joke or make the subject um a center of a symbol of a joking subject to the patriarchal society. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Thank you, Editor. Um, so I think um all the knowledge that was being shared excited me, and then I forgot because I'd initially planned, I'd written down to um share with the people that are watching uh the recently released annual crime report from Uganda Police for 2025, uh, just to sort of ground the conversation and to see um what the prevalence is. And the report talks about uh 12,606 sex-related, I put that in quotes because that's how it's written, uh, sex-related cases that were reported uh to Uganda police. And of those, 10,654 were juvenile girls and 1,794 were adult women, uh, which is I've if you add my math is terrible, but if you add this up, this is almost like it's it's almost totally because this is 1,100 something. This is almost the total number of all the cases that were reported. Uh, I think it said only 98 of these total were men, so the rest were all women. And then of these cases, 12,606. So of those, only 5,844 went to court. And of those, only 790 secured convictions. So that's uh if you do the math at home on your calculators, um, that gives you the amount of people that either I think had their cases dismissed or they never made it to court, or even if they made it to court, they never got justice. So they're just um going about life despite having this big thing that you know was done to them. So I thought we'd have a conversation about um what survivors should do, first of all, and what kind of help exists uh both uh policy-wise and then um in the communities. So I think we can start with uh Tracy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

So um going to speak to the available services or you know, help to survivors of sexual violence. The first one, of course, is law enforcement, that sexual violence or sex-related crimes are actually crimes. And then, and therefore the first space or um the first space of help is actually law enforcement, that is police, and then you bring in the judiciary um and prisons, you know, and spaces like that that are law enforcement agencies. The unfortunate bit is um I think many of us Uganians have lost hope in the formal justice systems. Um, this is because of so many issues when it comes to sex-related crimes. Um, the trivialization that happens, for example, um, at police centers, that people don't, like editors say, people don't take this as a serious issue. And then, of course, secondly, the issue of um evidence. That for instance, when someone is violating you, you're not pulling out a phone or a camera to record them and say, hey, hey, hey guys, this is the evidence, right? And so because there's no evidence, even in the courts of law, it's really hard to prove because you know the justice system works with evidence. And then I also think it's around misinformation of how to report sex crimes because you find that um many people who are violated, for instance, uh they tell you that if you've been raped, the very first place you should go to should be actually the police station so that they can get your clothes. If there's any DNA on you, they can pick that and that will serve as the evidence. But you find that for most people, when such a heinous act happens to them, they run home to maybe shower or to bander clothes and things like that. So, you know, that is a bit difficult. But law enforcement, of course, is the first um space. If you've been raped, if you've been defiled, if you've been violated in any sort, please go and report the case to police. And then, secondly, um, I'll speak to maybe the mental health services that are available, and these are mainly provided, especially by non-government organizations, so CSOs, who provide uh mental health services to survivors of sexual violence. And many, especially women's rights organizations, have taken this up and added it into their programming around offering mental health support to survivors of violence, so that is also one of the um instances. Then maybe back to policy. Um, I'll speak to like teenage pregnancies, so the girls who, you know, have the unfortunate burden of carrying teenage pregnancies. There's uh policy and there's guidelines and initiatives to ensure that those girls are actually able to go back to school. Um, yeah, I think those are the policies I'll speak to. Maybe also I'll speak to post-abortion care. That you find that some girls who have been or who have experienced sexual violence um, you know, end up trying to uh have abortions, which more often than not are unsafe. So they are there's post-abortion care that's available at different health centers, and those are the services that um those survivors or people who have uh done unsuccessful abortions can actually um access. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Over to you, Edith.

SPEAKER_03 16:48

Um maybe to take you back a bit. When you read the numbers in the annual police report, there is something it really brings out very well. The systems are overwhelmed. The systems are overwhelmed because you read over 2,000,000. 12,000 cases. However, you only read how many convictions?

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Uh the convictions were 790.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

That is not even half the number.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:18

So where does that leave the survivors who are seeking justice? Should be a big question for us. Where does that leave the survivors who are seeking justice? That should be a question we should all look at. How are they going to fit uh get the justice if the system that is supposed to provide it is overwhelmed? That's uh both the police officers where your reports, yeah, and then the judicial system that is handling the case, uh scrutinizing your evidence to convict the perpetrator and all that. That also comes back to what we look at as a system that is not ready to change. It's so conservative that it's not working to the current growing society. If you look at victims of sexual violence online, they don't have a judicial framework that strictly speaks to that kind of violence, AI defects and the like. So, where does that leave the judicial system? Is it growing with a growing society to help the survivors or is it still not growing and aiding the perpetrators because they basically in criminal law, if something is not an offense, they can't try on it. So people should think about that. The states, the societies, and everyone. Now we go back to our survivors, how they would get help. As this is narrated, your first point of help is a police station. And I believe they have the Mama police office in most police stations we have. However, they have few women officers. So you have been victimized, sexually uh violated, you walk into a police station, the way they collect that evidence is traumatizing itself. But now imagine it's a man who is collecting that evidence. So, how safe is our first uh aid responder for the survivor? We should have that to think about because you're telling this young girl to go to the police station. She's been traumatized, she has been abused, but the person going to collect her evidence, tell her to change, talk to her. He's not trained into canceling trauma cases of that kind. He's just going to go direct to collecting evidence. Where does that leave a victim? And that's why you see most cases go unreported.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

That's true.

SPEAKER_03 20:12

So we have to think of that as a community and as the policymakers also back in parliament sit and think through. And people who are very resources, government at large, how have you supported the enforcer, the police stations, to have a therapist on ground, to have someone who would first talk to the victim before you come to just collect evidence and make it all about, oh, this is the evidence we need for us to open a file. So we should revise those procedures because most times they are not helping the survivors. They are actually victimizing them more, and that reduces response to justice at the end of the day. And then also the judicial system, as I said, it's overwhelmed, but also open court cases sometimes are very hideous to watch because you relive that experience, you relive that trauma. So, how best can we handle survivors in such an environment? Um, now we have survivors who have disabilities. These are totally ignored, and that's why I have a problem with the police report. It generalizes these cases, but there are cases that I won't say need special attention, but need a kind of extra attention because uh if I'm living with a disability of hearing impairment or speech impairment, what comes next? How am I going to explain what happened to me without an interpreter or sign language interpreter on the spot? What happens to me? That means I need to die with my case or it's going to be misreported. And that's why you see. We have many cases, less convictions, and few perpetrators in police stations. Because you can't cover the system just vaguely. And that's what's happening. We have a lot of women facing these issues, but they have other special needs. So we can't cover these issues in there.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

So to me, we is the system really growing with that growing environment, or is it a system that is in place trying to look like it's clearing that passage, but it's actually sitting on the perpetrators and protecting them in a way?

unknown 22:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Oh wow. You've given us a lot uh to think about, but uh I think the thing that stood out um or rang some bells was the question on whether the justice system is evolving um at the same pace as the society. Because I I ask myself that a lot, because the thing is people look at technology-assisted um sexual violence and assume that it stays online. Like, so when you complain, people will just say, Oh, like then don't post your pictures here, or like, oh, the overtake your in photos to Instagram or da da da, all these things. They assume that this it just happens in that continuum and then it stays on there, and they forget that it carries sometimes uh onto the offline space. For example, I think there was a conversation on X, uh, where I think a number of girls were saying there was a gentleman if he tries to um like establish a relationship with you and then you refuse, then he makes it his life purpose to harass you on X. Like everything you post is there, everything like misinformation, da da da, everything just because you refused his advances. So if you look at something like that and you assume that it only stays offline, but in some real cases, these people are actually taking their harassment offline, and this is trans translating into sexual violence. So if I can't report at the point of this person is always in my mentions harassing me and bringing information that's not right, and if I can't report at that stage, then by the time it escalates, like I could have, like this could have been prevented if I was able to report at that stage, so that you know this person is like there's some form of justice or like a season resist, I don't know what the language is. So I think uh that's a very that's something for us to think about, um, and for the policy makers to really munch on um and see where those gaps can be filled. Um, yeah, and see where those gaps can be filled. So, do you have anything? No. Okay. Um, yeah, so I think you also touched on what I was going to ask about next, which is um for us to have a conversation on how um power and patriarchy and institutions kind of shape how people understand violence and how like the believability of who the victims are and how uh like violence is dismissed. So, yeah, let's try and unpack that. I know you touched on it a little bit, especially with the institutions, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Um maybe in speaking about patriarchy and sexual violence, I want to mention that sexual violence is not about sex. Like rape, defilement, etc are not about sex. Like if people wanted sex, they could easily get it from people who would be willing, you know, subjects. But whenever someone violates another person sexually, it's about power. It's about the fact that I can exert power over you, I can do whatever I want to do to you, and nothing will be done to me. Yeah, and I can get away with it, and you know, I'll keep doing it to you, and you know, you just have to take it. So sexual violence is really about power. So that's where patriarchy comes in. That it it assumes that women are subordinate, that women um men are entitled, that men are entitled to our bodies, and so they have to do whatever they want to do with them. And so I wanted to just make that clear. But also another thing patriarchy does is that it fuels the culture of silence. That you know, in patriarchal societies, women shouldn't talk. One, like how how dare you question what has been done to you? So it perpetuates the culture of silence, but also uh in speaking about culture, that you find that many of our cultures pit women as the subordinate actors in society. And so there's these sayings in cultures, uh such as Taiangwa and It C and even the myths that we have about certain women in certain communities, that for these ones they don't refuse, these ones they lose, uh-huh. Yes, and those are all perpetrated by culture, which you know, patriarchy stands firm on. So that is also one of the ways in which uh patriarchy can um, you know, perpetuate violence, but also um victim blaming, you know, things like blaming someone for their dress code, or she was in a short dress, so she wanted it, or she was in a bikini, so definitely she was calling for attention from men. Things like, you know, there's this whole saying where, you know, if a girl goes to visit a guy, somehow it is assumed that it means she has consented to sex, and you know, so those things and those utterances are all fueled by patriarchy of thinking that you know, why can't girls and boys actually have, you know, normal healthy friendships, right? Yes, why why isn't it a show that women have agency over their bodies? You know, there's this uh even in speaking about victim blaming, for instance, sex workers, I'll speak to sex workers and how when they go to police stations, for example, to report abuse, to report sexual abuse, police officers are like, but that's your job. That's what you'll be doing. So if this how how dare you claim that this man then raped you, you know, and that goes about uh goes back to autonomy of women's bodies, that it's like your body is just a shell, and everyone can use it the way they want. You cannot speak about your body, you cannot say no, you cannot say yes. And even, you know, this whole culture around slut shaming, you know, that uh for you've slept with so many men, so definitely you cannot claim that you've been raped, right? So all those I think are really harmful and are definitely perpetrated by um patriarchy.

SPEAKER_03 28:36

You've seen where women are harassed by their bosses or people in higher hierarchy, and they can't report to the HR because who is cutting your paycheck at the end of that day?

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Yeah, and people always tell us the HR is not your friend, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 28:53

So before you even go to the HR, the HR is also answerable to the executive director of that organization or body where you work. So the system has created an environment where the survivors have less options of help, yet the perpetrators have a whole added advantage of the structure building of the system. And it's something people don't want to do away with, they're still holding on to. So, what happens thereafter? You don't want to quit your job, you need it, you need the money. Uh, you have no one else to tell. If you're to tell, you're going to be told, accept his your boss. That's your boss, yeah. You know? Most people are going to say, Why are you hesitating? That's your boss, accept. So, where does that leave the survivor, someone facing the harassment? And that's where mental health comes in because she'll be depressed, she'll be stressed, she needs that job, but she's not happy at that job, and she has nowhere to get help. There are civil society uh uh that are helping people in these cases, and they have really played a big role to fill in what the government can't fill in currently. And uh I think people should have uh a normal conversation every day saying if you ever face this situation, there are people who can help you. Just start small. You can start by going to therapy, you can eventually open up, you can eventually come up with a solution. So if we accept that once you face a problem, you need to get help because most survivors don't think they need to get help. And that's something we need to implant or create awareness on. Everyone deserves to be helped. And you deserve the help. You are actually entitled to help. So once we normalize that, then I think survivors will come out more.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

I think you I just wanted also to speak about um is in speaking about patriarchy, the issues of of money and class, that you find that uh poverty, it's it's it forces victims to stay in abusive environments. Uh, we were speaking earlier about the fact that what happens if the person abusing is your boss? What happens if the person abusing is your dad? What happens if the person abusing is your husband and he's the breadwinner, right? So you find that because many women don't control money, many women are not in income-generating um spaces or they don't have economic autonomy, that they find themselves staying, continuing to stay in those abusive relationships because actually they have nowhere to go. So I think it's also important for us to understand the cycle of violence because then you who's looking from the outside, like, but why don't you just leave? If the man is beating, if he's raping, if he's doing all these things, leave. But you know, leaving is easier said than done because again, the human instinct is survival. Above all else, it is survival. Yeah, and I also wanted to speak to uh another thing patriarchy does is it trivializes sexual violence. I think editor hinted upon it that women are somehow supposed to be grateful for any attention from men, wanted and unwanted, right? That if you tell someone, do you can you imagine that man tapped my ass? It's like be grateful. At least you're getting attention from men, you know. Yet it it really me, nobody's talking. Yeah, you see, me, nobody's talking to me. And for you, they are telling you, you know, yeah, like what uh was done to that MP in parliament, I think we all know about her. They just told her, be grateful. You see, other older women like you are not even being talked to by anyone. But this guy is young, he's handsome, he's saying all these things to you. And I was in that court session when, you know, the hearing for her case came up, and I just couldn't believe the things that people were saying, right? And then also in speaking about patriarchy, that you see patriarchy makes women enemies of each other. And you know, studies show, or you know, there's been a lot of literature around the fact that women actually uphold patriarchs. Patriarchy, yes. And you find that there are some women who shelter abusers, who make excuses for abusers. Yeah, and there's this whole thing of believe, believe survivors until it's someone that you know. Until it's someone else. Some women are like, ah, if if X, Y, Z design who rapes the girl, lynch him. Yeah, but if it's your friend who has died, then are you willing to also take that same stance? So you find that um sometimes also us who are the ones who are upholding the patriarchy are the ones perpetrating violence. That you know, it's you're you're on every survivor's side until it's someone that you know. So you don't keep the same energy for every you know survivor that you keep sheltering these uh these known abusers. So I think that's also something I wanted to speak about. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Okay, thank you. As we um attempt to wrap up, I don't know if you ladies have seen um the CNN report that talked about. I forget whether it's 62 or 82 million men that visited an online rep academy in Feb. Is it 62 or 82? I forget the numbers, but if you look online, the story um has been making rounds. And it's there's a platform which I will not share, where men, a lot of them married, go on there to give each other advice on how to sexually um violate their wives while they are asleep. So um there's like a couple of screenshots on them, like someone would be like, Oh me, I use this, and then they put like a dosage of how what's the word, like the drugs they're using to knock them out, and then um they're filming, like doing they call it high test, where like you open to see if she's actually awake, and all these things are on a free platform that was visited by that million men. And so, in having this conversation, I thought it was timely for us to you know have a conversation about that because I'm I bring I bring this up because you mentioned what happened, what happens if your abuser is a man, sorry is your husband. Um, and if you take time to read through that story, there's a number of survivors talking about when they actually figured it out and how their world shattered because this is your husband, you some of them have children together, and you know, like what was heartbreaking was you know, that there was a man saying, you know, you you aim to do this in this number of doses because you're thinking long term. I was like, Wow, yeah, like you're thinking about you you should be thinking about doing this long term, so like just a little bit of this just so that it's a long-term thing. So I thought that was really something that we needed to shed uh yeah, to shed a light on.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

This is uh a very, very interesting conversation now, especially like earlier I spoke about technology-assisted sexual violence, and we are finding that more and more, especially with the red pill movement and all these hateful men online, they it has created a space for them to wander in cells, exactly, to wander and enjoy themselves, right? And you know, the undertake of this world and uh, you know, very many other traditional quote-unquote men are existing on these online spaces and continuing to perpetrate violence. What you've shared has reminded me of the story of that lady in France. I forget her name. Is it Penny Penny Court? I don't know what her pronunciation is. Forget her name, but we know that lady in France, Giselle, yes, whose husband had been raping her for years. Yeah, yeah, and inviting strangers and inviting strangers to the same and feel me. And this is her husband. And when they brought her before court, she she first he was in denial. Like, no, it can't be. Me and this man have been happily married for X number of years. It can't be that he's the one who's actually doing these horrible things to me. And I maybe also wanted to mention that um in sexual violence, most of the violence done to people is by people they know. They know. Yes, usually your first instance or most of the instances of violence you find are done by people that the the victims know or the survivors know. So either your your immediate family, your dad, your brothers, your cousins, or your friends, or your workmates, people who are around you. It's like it's it's it's I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's rare for men who don't know you to violate you. But it's usually starts at around the people that you know. So it's no wonder that there's husbands who who are on online platforms and advising other husbands on how to rape and violate their wives. It's really absurd. But it goes back to I think what Edita was talking about around um those platforms and how I how how are we making these platforms safe for everyone? What is the regulation of platforms, right? There are some, I think it's Gmail or YouTube, where there are some videos you can't watch if you're not, if your account is not registered up to a certain age, right? Can't we do that too? Can can't we have filters on online spaces that filter out sexual violence that ban people from accessing platforms if violence is detected? There are some times when you report abuse on X and X will write an email back and say, We reviewed your report and no harm was done. But you understand like how far or how sophisticated are these systems that that you know uh filter out what online violence is happening, you know, when someone's new pictures are leaked, why can't X or Instagram or whatever take that picture down? Yeah, why must it stay online until the person who has posted it can take it down, right? Like I think there needs to be a lot of regulation around um filtering systems online. Um, because you know, even AI and all these things are made by humans. And so humans, because of the information we have, we can be able to put some keywords, some things, like to be able to, you know, fish out those people are yeah. Um that's what I can say about that.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

So uh this is a very interesting conversation that we will probably not finish. Um I say interesting because I've been thinking around uh the point you just brought for a bit now, and I think that not I think I know that the owners of these platforms and all the brains behind them just really don't care. I think they are being um what's the word? Um lazy with our lives, or obvious, okay. The word is that they are capitalists. So it's about so if you're telling me I can make a site where 82 million men are going to visit in one month, I'm making funds. So I don't care whether some woman in Uganda is her husband is going to, yeah. So they just don't care um about what that happens, and then also in these rooms, it's like I'll give an example. If the three of us try to plan a program for that caters to a woman in Karamodra and she's not here, can you imagine the rubbish would come up with? Like would come up with generic things and say, oh, like she needs what bids you like would just come because we don't have her lived experiences. So if they are crafting these platforms and they say, say grok, and there's no feminist in the room to say, ah, have you guys thought that if you launch this AI, someone might use it to undress women? And it will be like a bunch of guys, or even sometimes women, like we said, and there will be this oversighted, and you end up with up launching um an AI that people can just say, Hey Grok, undress Samantha. And it does. Because you're thinking, how do we roll out Grok so we can make money as ex. You're not thinking, they're not applying this, or they just don't care to apply the thinking that a feminist would do and say, This platform may be. So I think um we I like I said, there's a deeper conversation to have about how to hold these people accountable for there to be consequences to them putting up, like the person who owns that site that was visited by 82 million, or the person or the board of I don't know, whatever brains are behind the site, there should have been consequences, or there should be consequences, but I'm sure they're going to get away with it on some what's the word, use agree, uh, what are those called? User agreements, and uh, they'd be like, oh, for us, we didn't know the user would use it like this. But if you're sitting down to craft something, to train an AI, to give it all these things, surely you can trade it to say no when someone says and dress someone, like it's it's that easy, really. Um, so yeah, but like I said, this is a long conversation that we shall maybe come back another time. Um, so parting shots, what do you think a truly survivor-centered um what do you think that survivor-centered responses look like?

SPEAKER_03 42:18

Okay, to me, um, I would think a survivor-centered approach one, safety should be the first thing. If I'm coming to a place, I need to feel safe, then accessibility. Uh, we have few health center force in our rural settings, and then they beat further away from the people, from the community.

SPEAKER_00 42:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:48

So imagine you're not supposed to undress, you're not supposed to take a bath. How are you moving from where? Let me say it's home. How do you get out of the home, set yourself to the police station, have yourself taken to the health care facility, because uh most police posts may not have a doctor on ground immediately. So they will take you maybe to a facility, but all through that period you're moving within people you're not comfortable with and you're exposed. So safety should be very important and accessibility should be at the forefront for victims to get justice, then the system or the institutional systems should grow with a growing society because they have empowered perpetrators more than they have given justice to the survivors. So they should grow with the society. If the law is evolving, they should evolve as well because the idea of DNA testing, how advanced are our DNA testing machines? Because I can take a shower and they can still get a DNA off me if I had sexual intercourse with a person. Then for issues like harassment, it might be attached, it might be forced into any sexual act but not penetrated, you would not need DNA. But I would need to report. So how are we collecting that evidence? Are you going to ask me did you take a picture at that time I was maybe fighting the perpetrator of me? Well you just think about it. Why would I think of taking a picture? And then community centered approaches communities should be aware that violence is violence in all forms. You don't see someone being harassed and you're taking a TikTok and then you're sharing that TikTok and then police are asking me for evidence but they can't even get you to say you violated my right because you shared me on TikTok without my knowledge without my consent. In all this we should learn that consent is very important but also police should or I'm insisting on police because it's the first point of contact point of contact after you've faced a violation. Police is a community force. So they should improve it how best it can collect evidence, how best it can handle survivors, they should have therapists on ground, they should have sign language interpreters on ground, they should have uh extra support personnel for people who have extra needs or unique needs. Because not all survivors are the same. And not all sexual violence cases are the same and not all of them should be treated the same way. That is something we should all learn. And that's the only way we can best approach sexual violence issues.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

And then lastly also around victim blaming that no there is no one who calls sexual violence to themselves right no one is standing on the street somewhere or online and saying come guys come and violate me right there's this whole thing of what was she wearing? If she was in a mini scat it means she called it but we've seen kids and women getting harassed wearing hijabs. Yeah right so it's not about how someone dresses babies who can't even talk who don't even have breasts or any other sexual parts being violated. So we should also take very very keen um consideration around victim blaming right there is no one who calls violence to themselves. No one wants violence to have to be done to them right so that is also something that's important.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Thank you. Thank you thank you that's a good note to wrap this discussion I think um it's very important to rather than say what was she wearing just tell direct all your curiosity and your anger and all your question onto the people who are violating. Just say don't violate women don't rape women don't harass women instead of asking women what they were wearing did she maybe eat his money da da da all those things. Yeah let's not be those people anyway uh like I said this is a very high note on which to close the conversation um I hope that the people will watching will join us in the comment section and keep the conversation going. Otherwise thank you so much for hanging out with me Samantha and Tracy and editor editor in the hall of fame and if you're looking for um a related podcast uh we did one uh under 16 days of activism uh around online violence so I think if you just go to our YouTube channel you'll be able to see it is called I think unpacking violence against women it has some of the conversation we touched on in regards to tech first tech assisted sexual violence uh yeah so if you're looking for more information there I think that's an episode you can watch otherwise thank you for hanging out with us and bye bye