A 30-Year Seminary Teacher Reveals Why Covenants Are Your Greatest Parenting Tool with Keith Harr

In this powerful episode, host Will Humphreys sits down with Keith Harr, a 30-year veteran of Seminary and Institute, husband of 45 years, father of 9, and grandfather of 38 for a conversation that will change how you think about covenant living, parenting, and the infinite power available to you through your sacred promises with God.

Keith and Will met on a service trip to Kenya, and from the moment they started talking, it was clear Keith carries hard-won, deeply practical wisdom about how the gospel actually works in real family life.

In This Episode, You'll Learn:

• Why covenants aren't just promises, they are conduits of power, and how to access that power daily
• The 5 levels of temple covenants and how they connect to the Abrahamic Covenant (posterity, land, and the priesthood/gospel)
• How the world's greatest crises: pornography, broken families, loss of identity are direct attacks on those same Abrahamic covenants
• The offense vs. defense framework for raising covenant-keeping children in the latter days
• How to build individual, one-on-one, and family spiritual rhythms that don't feel forced
• Why your child bringing their heart to you is like an offering on an altar, and how to receive it with tenderness

Connect with Temple Bound

• Instagram: @TempleBoundPodcast
• Host: Will Humphreys

Enjoyed the show? Please leave us a review and share this episode with someone who needs a boost of confidence today!

• The "secret handshake" principle: how to stay relationally connected to your kids as they grow and change
• Why parenting shame often comes from the adversary, and how the Atonement covers your imperfect parenting too
• The surprising connection between covenant living, service, gratitude, and anxiety relief
• How consecration isn't just giving everything away, it's accessing God anytime, anywhere

Transcript

Follow And Leave A Comment

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Before we start the episode, I have a small favor to ask. If Temple Bound has meant something to you, would you take a moment right now and follow the podcast and leave a comment on the app that you're listening to? When you follow and leave a comment, it helps the podcast show up for more people who are trying to learn, grow, and come closer to the teachings of the temple. It's free and it's simple, but it really makes a big difference. Are you a parent that has ever carried shame for the mistakes that you've made with your children? Today's guest is Keith Harr, someone I met in a bus in Kenya doing a service trip. He's a 30-year teaching veteran of Seminary and Institute, 45 years married, nine kids and 38 grandkids. He doesn't even pretend to do it perfectly, but what he does teach us today through our covenants is how covenants equal power and how we can use that power to impact the lives of our children to help them come into Christ. So we're going to talk about what it means to really come to the altar today in the temple and at your own kitchen table. Enjoy

Meet Keith And His Story

SPEAKER_01 1:05

the show. All right. Well, Keith, welcome to Temple Down. I'm so excited to have you on the show. Why don't you set the table a little bit for the audience about who you are and what you're passionate about?

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Thank you, Will. I appreciate it. Um yeah, I'm I have I've been married for 45 years now. And uh we have nine children, my wife and I, and uh 38 grandchildren. We just had two more born here in the last, just in the last couple of weeks. So it's it's exciting. Um the funny part is is I've lived in different states, you know, because of of my background. I worked for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for 30 years as a uh seminary teacher and an institute teacher and a coordinator. And uh just really loved that work. Um, I didn't always do that. I started out in the mortgage and real estate business, um, did that for nine years previous, and and just felt this desire to help youth. And uh I couldn't think of anything that would help them more than the teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so I I discussed it with my wife, and um we ended up, I ended up having to go back and get a degree. And so yeah, it it doesn't seem right that someone would go back and get a degree to make less by far. Yeah. But but that's what that was my path, and I wouldn't change it. I I will tell you that the experiences and the moves and every place we went and and prayerfully seeking those those things, as you look back, you see that tapestry being woven for your life. And um, it it's just been a it's just been a great experience with the nine children and and a teacher income. And we made a resolve, my wife and I did, when we first got married, we will live in a double in a single wide trailer to keep you home with the children and me at work. So whatever we have to do, that's what we'll do. So consequently, as a teacher's, you know, we didn't get a lot of pay. So it was fair for you know for what you get, but it's it's just hard to raise nine children on that. And we did some really interesting things to to make that work. And my wife is the hero in that in that story.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

That's so amazing. You know, this this legacy that you've left. And by the way, Keith, this is common for me when I talk to many of these uh institute or seminary teachers on the show, is that there is a consecration that goes on with that decision. And it's interesting to me too, because every single person I've ever interviewed for the show who's been in your position in that sense, they also have the most destroyed scriptures I've ever seen. Their scriptures are just highlighted and wrinkled and I mean, I don't even know how you read them, but I am I'm really excited to be with you today because all that time that you spent has given you a unique perspective as you serve the youth on the temple covenants that we make. So I mentioned consecration earlier before, and that's what we're talking about today, our covenants. So before we get to that, can you just share with the audience just one minute about what why you're so passionate about helping the youth?

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Yeah, you know, I I think um my background growing up was um I came from a great family. My my parents were married when they were 16 and 17 years old. And so they were really, really young. And most families, most marriages don't last. My parents had a love marriage all the way through for 50 some odd years, and my mom passed away at 68, my dad at 84. Great parents, they spent time with us, not real strong in the gospel. Neither of them had backgrounds from that kind of a background in in really, really learning the scriptures and learning that they didn't really have an activity strong strength in their uh background. So um yeah, I was first to go on a mission in our family line for a long time, and uh and it just there was something about it that just I just started discovering things and I didn't know that I didn't even know what really what general conference was because it was like a vacation for us. You know, we didn't ever see it until I got into Snow College. I took an institute class, and in that class, they they I did the teachings of living prophets, and that just turned on a light that has been going on for me ever since. And so I have this just this real discovery and passion for my own personal life and how it helped me as a youth and and uh as a as a as a husband and as a father. And I tried to carry that into my family, and then it just started to kind of grow from there. And I just wanted to be able to share that with the youth. And and I'll tell you that I was only one lesson ahead of them because I really did not know much about the gospel, except you know, I taught it for a little bit out in Japan, you know, on my mission. But um, you know, I you don't get into really Bible bashing there because it's like Buddhist, you know, verses.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Yeah, it's not they it's so different, it's not even close to the same.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Yeah. So um, you know, that that was that was quite um, I just really didn't know a whole lot. And so as I'm going through and teaching, and I come across certain passages in the scriptures, and I they just stand out to me like the gospel of Christ or the doctrine of Christ. When I would teach that and read that, it's just like, whoa, he doesn't say that about any doctrine except this one. And then it starts associating with covenants, and I start seeing this covenant thing coming up and and what's what Satan's trying to do with it and why it's so vital and so important. And so that becomes this just huge doctrine for me. In fact, if you asked any of my former students, they will, if you say, What does Brother Harsh say about covenants? They'll say, Because I

Why Covenants Equal Power

SPEAKER_00 6:40

said it so often, covenants equal power. Covenants equal power. And so um, so that's where that doctrine came, kind of came, became passionate for me.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

That's amazing. That's amazing. So the covenants equal power. I love this bridge into you teaching the youth. Let's get right into it, Keith. Covenants equal power. So let's go through what would what are some of the things that you go over with the students that you've done for 30 years? What how do you teach covenants to them and what does that look like?

SPEAKER_00 7:07

So many things, you know. I mean, um, even if you look back in the Old Testament and you go into the Abrahamic covenant, right? Um, there's there's three promises that the Lord gives to Abraham, and most of us are pretty familiar with that. But I remember thinking Abrahamic covenant, it was just this blah, this blur, you know, I had no idea what that really meant or anything. And then as I started teaching it, getting into a little bit, I started realizing that, you know, Abraham consecrated his life, and and even to the point that he was willing to sacrifice his son, right? After all of the he had gone through to get him here. Um, that's true consecration. And so he became the father of the faithful. And God promised him three things. He promised him his seed would be as numerous as the stars of the sky and the sands of the sea. He promised him power through the priesthood, and he promised him um that his uh, let's see, wealth, the land. Yeah, the land would be his, right? And so the, if you look at those three things, it's power, um, intimacy, which is you know, sexual intimacy bringing children to the world, and then also this wealth. Now, if you think of the three things that are destroying mankind more than anything else, it's it's those three things, right? It's how so I I got thinking about that. That's you know, we're here on this earth to learn and see and test us to see how you will do with power and wealth and you know, if I give you those things, and then the opportunity to be able to be a procreator and bring children, these spirit children, down to earth and um and raise them up, you know. So we're kind of being tested in those three things. And really, the way that we do that, if we'll continue on that covenant path, he's promising us that we can have all that he has and continue to have those seeds and to be priests and kings and different things with him in the celestial kingdom. So that that's where kind of that starts at, it originates right in the Old Testament. So with me.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

I I've never made that connection that, you know, the Abrahamic covenant being those three things. And then you look at the world today and where it's falling apart, it's around those three things. It's power, it's intimacy. You look at the plague of pornography, which is almost like it's so common that if you had brought that plague back to the Abrahamic days and people said, Wait, you could do what? It was, you know, Jordan Peterson once commented um that in today's world, a young man or young woman can access more explicit content in five minutes than the the uh previous generations have been able to do intentionally if they wanted to seek it out their entire lives.

Abrahamic Covenant And Modern Threats

SPEAKER_01 9:40

It was more in five minutes than people could see. So it's interesting. I never thought about that. These these covenants that we make are actually grounding us to be happy, and when we see the world unravel, it's around those same things.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

So good, Will. Well put. And you know, I I think one of the things that I've noticed as I've taught um, you know, the youth is that they do struggle with that. And it is a real struggle for a lot of men and some women, and and um, you know, Satan, of course, is is trying to take those things and exploit them and and to cause them so that we cannot have the blessings that God has in store for us. But I think about parents, you know, we're we're bringing these children, these spirit children from God into our families. Is there anything that even compares slightly to that opportunity and responsibility, right? And then we we go ahead and we give our our kids a phone, a cell phone that has access to everything. If someone had given me that as a youth, I mean, I struggled enough, you know, trying to get through those teenage years, that to have that in my hand would just have been devastating. And so uh we have, as parents, I that's one thing that was on my mind a lot is we just need to be more intentional as parents, recognizing the eternal perspective

Parenting Offense With The Holy Ghost

SPEAKER_00 10:55

that way in the bringing those children to earth and how we parent them. I I know that's a little off the subject, but no, I think this is actually very on topic.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

I know my audience would love to hear your thoughts on, you know, when it comes to that parenting element, when you think about raising children in the latter days and you have these attacks that the world has never been prepared for uh against these Abrahamic elements. What do you what do you said? I mean, I'm looking for two things, Keith. I'm I'm curious, like from a from an educational level, like what do you what do you think parents should know in in that perspective element of like what how do how should parents like think about these things? You know what I mean? That's not probably the best question, but can you try to help me?

SPEAKER_00 11:35

Yeah, no, that's a that's a great question. And so I what one thought that comes to mind is um Julie Beck gave a talk in conference once, and she said the single most important skill we can teach our children is to recognize, understand, and act upon the the Holy Ghost. And so, you know, as a parent, that that should be we should have two sides. We should have a defense and we should have an offense, right? And even in the armor of God, we have the offense as the sword, the sword of the spirit, the word of God, you know, being able to help fortify them. Um, uh Doctrine Covenants 45, 53 talks about the ten versions, the five that were wise, and then there were the five that were foolish. The five that were wise received the truth and took the Holy Spirit for their guide. Those are that's like this covenant thing coming up in my mind as I see it in the scriptures. That's a key scripture, right? How did they live? It doesn't really tell you in the New Testament, but it tells you right there in Doctrine and Covenants, they received the truth and took the Holy Spirit for their guide. That's a key thought. So as parents, we want to be able to help teach them that as one thought on the offense side. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Absolutely. I love this idea of offense and defense. And so the first like mindset that you just taught was this idea of the importance of helping the children feel the Holy Ghost and start to receive revelation and start to communicate. Because I think that's it's interesting how when I was growing up, I was taught these things and they felt true. And it I went I went about my life anyway. But as a parent, I it's almost like we have to instill it now. In a way that's that's actually applicable. And I guess there's lots of benefit to that for sure. But for me, it's it's almost like, well, it it it it almost challenges my faith a little, like, oh yeah, I've always hoped it's true. I I have to know it's true in order to teach my kids because it's the one thing. It's like on the offense side, that's one of the main things, right? Is that connection to the spirit.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

It really is. And and I think what you said is really key is that teach them now and have them experience those experiences on their own. We can we can undo all the check marks and go through and have scripture study and do, you know, family home evening and whatever it is that you know we're taught to do. We've got to get away from that check mark mentality into the transformational mentality where we really understand this idea that we have got to be transformed by the Holy Ghost and help our children understand that it's a process. We're all in it together, we're all have natural man tendencies, and we all struggle with those three covenants that we talk about and promises. So, but it is that process. And if we can teach them to understand that eternal prospect and understand it from that far out, and then start living it and receiving that revelation so that we don't give them all the answers, but we say, hey, maybe you could take this to the Lord and see what you find. Or in your scripture study, look for principles, helping them to find doctrines and principles. Those are the keys that the what the reason the scriptures are there. If they're just reading scriptures to get through it, you know, I mean, there's a value to that. But to really, you really mine out those principles and doctrines in the scriptures and then use those and and kind of run their questions through those principles on a regular basis and then write down and record those thoughts. If we can get them to do that before they leave our homes, they're gonna be fortified. If they have nothing like that, we're sending them out into a world that is gonna eat them up.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

Absolutely. I I think as a parent, I get when you said that I I was so inspired by what you said. And my next question was like, how did that look like in your home? How did you how did you help them learn to not just read the scriptures, but to really

Interviews That Build Trust

SPEAKER_01 15:10

seek out answers in the scriptures as at a younger age?

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Yeah, that's a really good good question. And and one of the biggest keys for me was there's a couple of things that were key in raising my kids. One was um we read a book called Um Raising a Family to the Lord, Gene R. Cook. Okay. I've tried to get my kids to read it too now that they're having their kids, right? I learned that you you don't say much about that after I leave home. But but it's a great book, and it taught us that you know, a couple of things that it gave us the habits of doing was to have regular interviews. And so we would we would take those areas of life that Christ, you know, the areas of social and and mental and physical and spiritual, and we'd have them make some goals and talk about those things in those interviews. And we would interview um our kids, when we got nine of them, it cut it got to be a little harder to do them every week, but we'd try to run them through at least one to two a week, okay? And so that was a big deal because we got those personal one-on-ones, and then we of course have our scriptures study time in the mornings, and some days, just like anybody else, they were horrible, and some days they were they were really good. But, you know, I think I think having a little bit of fun with it and you know, not having, you know, not forcing it. I think that's another mistake that we make as parents is we try to force things on our kids, right? But to be able to help introduce it to them and be empathetic and understanding when they come in. I remember talking to one person that said, Yeah, we have an interview like that, and we sit on our bed when we have that interview. And he said, What I we tell them this is the safe place. No matter what you tell us, right here on this bed, we will never be angry with you, you know, and we we just want to help. And I thought that was a really good metaphor for when you have those talks, and anytime we have our kids and they bring something to us, that's a sacred time, right? So I think that's a big part of it is building that trust. And I think you mentioned it already. They've got to know that you know, and so they know that you've been studying your scriptures, that you get revelation, that you and your your spouse, you know, are are guiding your lives and what you do as parents is based on revelation. And believe me, we didn't do it all just right for sure, but that you're trying, right? And that's what this whole gospel is about. And so when they see that, I think that's a big deal. And then and then help them to develop those habits and ask them when you're in that spiritual realm and saying, okay, on your spiritual goals, have you been feeling like you've been able to get revelation from Heavenly Father? You know, if not, what's what's your experience? And then have that conversation with them in those interviews. I think that was a big key for us.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Yeah, I love that. Let me read let me kind of process that in my mind. You know, I I heard first and foremost the example. I, you know, that that came up in the middle as you were talking, but I heard that as like foundational. We have to have our own testimony, we have to be seeking our scriptures ourselves. Um, and by the way, I want to I want to preface everything I'm summarizing from a place of like the thing that meant the most to me was that you're just trying. This isn't perfection. This isn't like, you know, Keith is there 98% of the time. It's just that every day he's doing the best he can with what he has. And um, I love that. So we're trying to create our free nation, we're trying to help them have these experiences. But it starts with our example, and then you talked about creating um patterns within the home. And I've I've heard Michelle uh Bentley say it, like learning heaven, these celestial patterns of like um creating space and making it safe individually, you know, the best we can, maybe once a week or once a month, um, once every couple of months, whatever that is. And then um, and then also having those connections to the scriptures and the Holy Ghost as a team, as a family team where you're coming together. So I see this as like individual, and then I see that as like one-on-one, and then I see that as a group, and that all these things. The thing, the last thing I wanted to say, and I'm saying all this for my benefit, but I'm hoping my audience is getting value of just me recapping is the other thing I wanted to highlight was this idea that you said that um you're you're not forcing any of it, but you're asking questions. Like there's almost this sense of like you're being curious with your kids so that when they pres and you're smart enough to know that when they bring something from their heart to you, it's an offering on an altar, like in the temple. Like this they're they're bringing their heart to the temp to the offering of the family, and you as a patriarch or matriarch are able to be in a position to where you receive it with with tenderness, and then you remain curious with them around it, and you're asking questions that will actually guide them to like, hey, have you received revelation? What's your experience with that? Is that pretty close to what you you were you were communicating?

SPEAKER_00 19:56

It really is. Well, and and I loved what you said about bringing an offering to the altar because what is it that we sacrifice now according to the Temple Covenant? It's a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And when that kid brings that to you and they're broken in their hearts, that's a sacred, sacred time and an opportunity for us to be able to help turn them to Christ and help them feel his peace and understand that covenant relationship, that he doesn't expect perfection. And by the way, I just want it to be known and heard that I had arguments with my wife, I yelled at my kids, I did the wrong things a lot of times all the way grow up, you know, taking this family through you know this process. But we tried, you know, like I said, and that that is the key word. I really like what you said. Um, you know, if you follow me around every day, you'd go, wow, that guy taught seminary.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

You know, um when I do the podcast are like you? I'm like, uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Anyway, I'm as human as they come, you know. Every natural man thing that is there, I've, you know, experienced and and had to struggle with. But but I also through that experience, and that's why we're here, right? That through that experience, I've come to know Christ. I've come to know his love. I've come to know it's infinite, that there is nothing that I can do or you can do that will ever stop that love from being there. And that's so important for us to understand. I I think growing up, I I had that feeling that you know God was maybe you know unhappy with me a lot of times, and I felt a lot of shame. And I think that's one of Satan's big tools is that shame idea. Yeah. And so when we when we understand the covenant relationship, what we're we're really understanding is, and he says, I told you this before, I've talked about this before, the gospel, my gospel is faith in in Jesus Christ, repentance, entering into a covenant, and receiving the Holy Ghost, right? And and we renew that covenant. That's the baptismal one, and we renew that every time we take the sacrament. So if we can understand it, it's like this perpetual. Grace to grace growth that we repent, we have faith, we enter into this covenant to always remember and take his name upon us and keep his commandments. And then we we we get the spirit, we get sanctified, and then we mess up again. And then we then we put our faith in him. And we don't have to wait till the sacrament. We can renew that covenant all the way through the week and just keep that perpetual cycle going. And that's why he called it his gospel, because it is the heart of coming to him, connecting with him, and being connected, as it says in John 15 about the true vine, right? But you have to keep that connection to it to be able to receive that nourishment and that strength. So covenants are so vital in that way.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

It feels like the covenants are healing in that process. It's interesting to think about these fallouts that we have as parents, these imperfections. It means so much to me that you were authentic and talked about being an imperfect parent and losing your temper or fighting with your spouse. I think for me, um, that was a real burden I carried for the longest number of years. I was okay being imperfect and I, you know, had sins and these things that I would repent of before. But when I was a parent and I would lose my temper at a child, the shame that I put myself through, and to some degree still do, but there was something that shifted because of the temple and because of the understanding of how covenants work, that I stopped thinking about these mistakes that I was making as deviations from the path and started thinking of them more of as part of the path when my intentions are to keep pushing forward. And I I want every parent to hear this, if you've never felt this before, is that it's okay that you are imperfect. Like those things that you do as a parent that you shame yourself over if you're one of those like me, the things that you beat yourself up over, first of all, a lot of that shaming and beating up, well, all of the shaming is from the adversary. You have to recognize those thoughts are not coming from you, those are coming from the adversary. And that that's the reason that Christ had the atonement. Even for you, even for me. The the these mistakes we make as as parents, uh, I think that's a hard thing for me to think about for me, Keith, is as a parent, when I make a mistake, it causes hurt to my child.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

And and that's that to me is for years was unforgivable because I've never loved anything more.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

I can feel that same, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

And so and and we can't grow as people unless we had that experience. So if we can trust the Lord and go to these, this is this is the reason I started the show, by the way. It's like I was looking for this healing as a parent and I found it. And it's like I want everyone to know that like this is it's part of the path that you were gonna mess up with your kids. It's part of the pain and the hurt that we cause and their mistakes are what they bring as an offering to the savior, and that's how we become like him. It's a very, it's a very um tender process, and it all boils down to the covenants and the power that you keep talking about.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Yes. Well, well said, and and I I really liked what you said about you know, Satan, he he really wants to keep us away from that covenant path. And so when we feel that shame, we don't feel like we can approach him, God and Christ. Um, I felt that shame so many times of, you know, how could I how could I, you know, approach him or ask him to forgive me again? You know, yeah, so many times the same thing. Yeah. And and knowing that I've I've caused him this pain, you know, and that that's all been paid for. It's all done. There's nothing we can do that is gonna add any more to it. It's just there. And so so we can draw on that at any time. I love that. And and one of the other things that you said, and I and I I really feel this too, because I've you know broken the hearts of my children at times, you know, and just by you know, getting angry or whatever. And but if I can go to them and apologize, right, and tell them, look, you know what, I was way out of line here, and you know, you didn't, this is not as big a deal as I'm making it to be. Will you forgive me? And let's go move on from there. Kids are so forgiving. And I think that helps them to see that, you know, they're gonna make mistakes and they can apologize and they can, you know, kind of regroup and and start again when they've messed up too. So I think that's a big relational relationship um part of building that trust with kids. And another thing is they're not gonna care what you say to them in that interview if they don't feel like they have a relationship with you outside of it, right? Got it, got it. And so so one of the things that um Gene R. Cook in his book talked about was having uh one-on-one times with those kids. And so that was the other thing. My wife and I, every week we'd have this planning time on Sundays and talk about which kid we were gonna have a special time, we call it special time with, and which ones we'd have an interview with, and then just plan you know, our week. And we we this we always have this promise that this week will not pass except these things happen. Everything else can go to pot, right? My job, my calling, my whatever else. But the this week will not pass without, and we try to keep that as the foremost, you know, forefront of what we would plan every week. And so those relationship builders with the special times, and we would ask the kids, what is it that you want to do? And then try to do something with them that they liked, and sometimes it was just a ride on the bike, or sometimes it was a wrestle or jumping on the trampoline or whatever it was. But those are bonding times that now allow you to be able to be more in that sacred time and allow them to feel a little bit more of that trust when they come to you.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Yeah, I think that's I think that going back to my summary that I gave earlier of that wonderful description of offense, I think that's something that is great to add into that because that special time that we have with our kids is relational. And it's interesting how that evolves over time. As you were talking, the two things that came to my mind was first, how that's such a beautiful actual demonstration of covenant living is that time we spend with our kids and then all those other things teaching them offense and defense. The second thing I think I thought about was how quality time with my children evolved as they grew. And I learned something that I would love to share just real briefly, was that my oldest son Ethan, when he was little, I could just this is true for all my kids at certain ages, just showing up. That's all I needed to do. I just show up, I could literally carve out time and just be like, hey, what do you want to do? And I think that is a key thing, doing what they want to do. Yeah, if you can find something you're both excited about, then it becomes easier. Yeah, but the tr but the trick is is that they they do it. So when you're when you're little, they just want to show you things or to play toys. And then he became a teenager, and he and like I would want to hang out with him, or I would like schedule that time. Like, what do you want to do? And it was like, not be with you, man. Yeah. And here's the trick I learned. Here's the trick I learned. This came from Revelation is that when he was little, it was easy, and we used to have the secret handshake, he and I. And it was so like every time we'd do it, it just warmed my heart. He could see he thought it was so cool. When I was older, I had to do more work. It was like I had to research like what he was into. And at one point it was video games. And we had some contention around the video games. And we ended up, I ended up realizing that the video games could serve as some quality time for us. So I started getting involved in his world in that way. And it and it was funny because once we were like at first, he always, you know, as a teenager, they tend to be a little defensive at first, but when you just keep showing up and you're like, you're sh you're sincerely interested in it, and they can perceive authenticity around it, over time it softens his heart, and we would play some games together. And it was like we rediscovered the secret handshake. So now he's now he's turning 23 next month. And I've and it's getting easier again. But what I've learned for me is that that relationship building is this is the key is finding the secret handshape with each of my kids. And it's baked, it's baked or hidden in their interests and their hobbies and what their passions are. And if I can be useful and excited in that space, it's it becomes he become it almost unlocks his heart to wanting to be with me. And um, that has been uh one of the hardest and greatest things I've ever like done over my life is figuring those handshakes out. Well said.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

I like that analogy. Yeah, very well said.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

I and I usually don't talk this much. I really, Keith, I would love, you know, we talked about defense with covenants in covenant living and teaching them out. Let's talk about, or no, we talked about offense. Sorry. Offense.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

What would you say is the defense

Parenting Defense With Faith And Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 30:25

side of those things when you're helping your kids?

SPEAKER_00 30:26

That's a great question. And I I think probably um, you know, staying prayerful to God and and receiving that revelation, asking him for help when you you you face those things that you don't really know what to do because Satan is on the offense attacking us, right? So we have to have that shield of faith, right? That's the defense side, right? And so um how do we how do we approach that? Well, I really think that you know we we really need to stay prayerful with with the Lord and receive that revelation and direction that we need for each individual situation and each child. And so when it comes to like your phone and and that type of thing, I know our world is just so centered around that. Um, our kids always used to make fun of us as parents and said, Well, dad, we're Amish.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

You know, we got abusing them from your restrictions, yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

Uh-huh. The restrictions, yeah. And so I really believe that's a big off defense for today is to be able to start out when they're young. It's a lot easier if you can start out when they're young and and help them to understand that this is why we're doing this, is because there are things that Satan is trying to attack us with. And here's the defense. We we until you're prepared, we're gonna give you a little more freedom as time goes on. And and I think each child, I tell my kids all the time, you can have all the freedom that you are prepared for, you know. And if you're younger, I don't care if you're younger or you're older, if you're prepared for it, I'm gonna give you more of it. And and I think that's a good helpful thought for them. And that's what kind of what the Lord has done with us. In fact, if we want to take that covenant thing to the limit and and see how that works with with us and and how he's worked with people in the past, if we take Nephi, son of Heloman, right? Um when he when he met with or talked to Nephi, he said, Nephi, I know that you will not do anything contrary to my will. Therefore, I'm giving you the sealing powers. You can say whatever is said on earth, sealed on earth is sealed in heaven. And so he knew and trusted Nephi to that level that he could give him all the power and whatever he said God would do. That's a pretty high level. And I really believe that we live beneath our privileges when it comes to power. I believe that the higher that we can keep those covenants and understand them and transform with them and ask for that transformative power to become more charitable and more Christ-like, and the more that God can trust us with the three Abrahamic things, but also with you know his spirit and with doing his will over our own. That's where that sacrifice and bringing that to the altar of um, I'm I'm willing. I've got a heart that says, I will give everything that I have. I'm consecrated to you and I want to be. Now, I say that all the time, and I truly feel it.

unknown 33:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Like myself in my Sunday school class, I teach gospel, gospel doctor right now. And, you know, in the morning, I have my routine. I am really good at keeping all my covenants and staying Christ's life. About three, four hours into the day and dealing with you know different things that hit you, I kind of lose it. And so I've really realized that I just seem to be more consecrated. That's all it takes, is more consecrated by inviting more of the spirit in, taking time and having a short devotional, maybe in the middle of the day as opposed to just in the first of the day, trying to remember Christ. That's the idea, right? Is that we remember him always and take his name upon us. How am I representing his name? And how am I remembering him when I'm talking to somebody that's attacking me? And I don't do that well, honestly, but I I'm aware and I start to learn, and it's just that migration, that slow process, as Joseph Smith said, that the stone that's become smooth as we go through those processes. I kind of go off everywhere, don't I? I'm so I love it.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

No, I'm so fascinated. If you're talking about defense, I'm hearing, I'm hearing, you know, faith. I'm also hearing covenant living. Like there's there's tactical things that you weaved in there like cell phone access. Like I think there's free, like you said, that whole thing about freedoms. I think that's a beautiful parallel into the covenants that you that we're talking about today. Because um, you know, I think that if there's a theme for today's show, it's literally covenants equal power. I think that's the thing I want people to realize. Yeah. So as you're talking about this, what you're saying is, you know, you get power in your covenants to be offense and defense, and defense looks like greater faith. Defense looks like having wisdom, following God's guidance on tactical things like when are the when's the child able to receive freedoms like cell phone usage? And it's also this thing about like consecration. Like you, it's I think we feel I I know for me, I think about temple service, Keith, as like I'm ascending the mountain, I'm getting revelation, inspiration, and I'm coming back and I'm applying it. I don't think I've really understood the power until today of I can access that all the time. Like I can I can choose right now to create some consecration in my life right now. Like I can, I can well, we're doing something, we're we are doing something consecrated right now. But if I was working and getting frustrated or feeling emotional or overwhelmed, I can stop right then and pray, which is a form of consecration. Yes. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. There's so many things that, like a devotional, like really intentionally creating space to offer my heart, like our children did to us earlier in our stories. Taking time to offer my heart back to the savior on the altar doesn't have to be within the walls of the the house of the Lord. Because I've been and I've made those promises, I can do that anywhere, anytime. And that's the power of that fifth and highest level of covenant that we make is that consecration is like, I think we think it is like we're supposed to give everything to him and there's blessings behind it. It's like, no, we can give, we can, we can access him anytime.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

I I love that. And in fact, you can actually bring it into your prayer, right? That and I think that revelation will come regarding those those um covenants as you do bring them into your prayer.

Praying Your Covenants Into Real Life

SPEAKER_00 36:30

And so I usually try to say, because I know that the covenant relationship and being on the path is just being having that broken heart and contrite spirit, being willing to know and act on that covenant. So you can review the five covenants in your prayer. Heavenly Father, I covenant and I promise with with you that I will live the law of obedience and sacrifice and offer you my will, and that I will enter into that the gospel, the gospel covenant of faith, repentance, baptism, and renewing that on a regular basis, that my heart is there to take his name upon me. And they help me to do that. And I'll talk about this a little bit, but I will love you and love my fellow man. Now he mentions that in the Temple Covenant, that in order to help us to stay on that covenant path, that was baffling to me. What does that mean? It helps me if I'm here. I'm trying to live this covenant of what I've made in baptism. How does that help me to love God and love my fellow man? You know, and then you start thinking, and then all of a sudden, some revelation starts to come. Then Elder Bednar gives a talk in conference that goes the idea of charity is endurance. It's it's in order to endure to the end. Well, that's part of that same gospel covenant that we make that will endure to the end. And here he's telling us to love God and love our fellow man. And Elder Bednar saying those two are connected. The the law of chastity, of charity, I'm sorry, um, the ability to obtain charity is related to this idea of endurance. And I just got thinking about how does that work? I just, you know, but but thinking about it and then making those covenants in the prayers and whatever else you're doing helps to gain more revelation. And then and I was reading in the book uh by, let's see, it was uh Brother Wilcox um The Continuous Atonement. And uh let me see if I can find the quote here. Yeah, here it is, right here. And he says, Um, why did the Savior atone for us? What was what was it a requirement? After all, he'd been promised all the Father had. Was that reward what motivated Christ to atone for us? No. Was it a fear of punishment, the threat of endless torment and outer darkness? No. Perhaps it was out of obligation. He was the oldest. It was his responsibility. Everyone expected him to do it. Was duty the only thing on the Savior's mind as he made his way toward the Garden of Gethsemane and the cross? No. Did he avoid eternal punishment? Yes. Did he receive eternal rewards? Yes. But those were not his motivation. They were simply natural consequences that followed his choice at a higher level. Did he fulfill his birthright obligation? Yes. Did he please the Father? Yes. But those were natural consequences as well, not motives. What motivated Jesus was the greatest motivation of all: pure, perfect, infinite love. That's powerful. That's the heart of all the gospel of Jesus Christ and the covenants and coming to him is all about. It's about knowing his love. If you don't know him, you don't have eternal life. This is life eternal, they might know thee. John 17, 3, right? And knowing him is knowing his love, and then developing that love and being changed by that love and being changed by his grace and things enabling us with power that we don't have to ourselves. The heart of it is love. And the more I change, the more I become like him, and use those covenants to do so, the more I can experience joy myself and bring others that joy. And that's what we're preparing for is that eternal life with our Heavenly Father in that joyous realm, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:08

So anyway, absolutely. I love that so much. The what I felt as you were talking was this like vision of living those five covenants that allow us to prioritize Him in a way that isn't restrictive. I one of my previous guests did actually she doesn't like to use the language of you know the uh law of obedience. It was the love of obedience. It was the she uses love in replace of law. We use law like gravity, you know, law, the law of gravity. It's not it's not a for, it's not like this like rule, it's just it's a force. It's an it's it's an actual like just metaphysical experience. Same with these these laws, they're just love. But there's they're all like, and so when you talked about how we live those covenants, how we feel we get to know our savior, and in knowing him, we it's impossible not to feel and know of his love. And I think you said this. Are you saying that that knowing of that love and feeling his love is the source of the covenant power?

SPEAKER_00 41:08

It is the source to give us the endurance to be able to do all other things, right? That no other motive. I mean, I know my motives sometimes have been, you know, I gotta have more money or I gotta have this, or my motive is to look good, or my motive is to have, you know, recognition or whatever it is. You know, my motives are always messed up. But if I can get it to the heart of the of the right, right, the best motive, which is love, which is the the motive of Christ, and I'm becoming, and you know, you that's kind of a that's kind of a grace thing. I mean, I don't earn that, you know. He he gives me that if I bring to him the on the altar a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And it's a process, it's not gonna happen all overnight, but I I know that I'm you know making progress, and that's the whole part of it, you know. But yeah, I think you do derive power from it.

Gratitude As Power Over Anxiety

SPEAKER_01 41:59

Absolutely. You know, I want to I want to talk about just one application of the power that I've I've learned over the years of covenant living. And because we talk about power to endure, you know, the power, um, but the power is so significant. I think oftentimes we don't understand how tactical and applicable that power really is. And and what I experience in my world, um, I used to suffer from intense anxiety, and I still have anxiety, like anxiety is part of life, but I mean crippling anxiety, like medicated, yeah, just horrible, horrible anxiety. And um, and what I learned over time, this was this was a big part of it for me. I learned from a a professional a medical professional, mental health professional, how it's impossible for us to feel anxiety and gratitude simultaneously. And so it was like this idea that like you you can shift between the two very easy because our feelings are just derived from thoughts. The thoughts that we have are what derive the feelings that we have, and the feelings we have are what motivate us to act, and so we can take the same action and have totally different outcomes because the emotion that's driving the those actions will produce completely different results. And so I was doing a lot of the right things, but I was still suffering from anxiety, and I learned that concept, and it was something that I had to I learned in reverse. As my anxiety improved, I found that living the example of living the law of sacrifice, sacrifice required me to serve in callings. Sacrifice required me to be more service-oriented. Service for me unlocked gratitude because when I was serving other people, and I never want to, like I don't know if I'll ever get to the point where I'm like, a church meeting, hooray. I honestly am like I don't dread them as I used to. Sometimes I might still, but like, but like I just I know it's the right thing to do. And when I'm in that space, and then my heart unlocks because I hear something special, or I'm serving someone as a ministering brother. I am so much more the beneficiary because what unlocks for me in that covenant living of sacrifice. Is perspective of what I have. And in it, or and or I feel the savior's love for the person I'm serving. It's easier for me to feel the love of God for another than it is for me when I'm stationary. Same. And so when I feel that love, I'm grateful for it. Or when I have that perspective, I'm grateful for it. And when I'm grateful, my anxiety shifts. And so literally, like I just think that's just one micro, micro example of how we can unlock all the different infinite power. I think that's what's hard is we know there's power, but like, what does that actually mean? For me, that's just one micro example. What experiences have you had, Keith, of power from your covenants that you've experienced or learned or felt?

SPEAKER_00 44:46

Thank you. Good, good question.

A Faith Story About Family Provision

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Um, one of the first ones that comes to mind, and I think it's one of those um reservoirs of faith, right? When you collect it, when you're kind of down the road and you're it's dry out there, you need a little bit to draw from, you can go back to that reservoir. And uh so my wife and I um we had at the time, this was when I was doing real estate before I started to teach. We had four, let's see, one, two, three, three children at the time. And I was self-employed working as a real estate agent, and I had three knee surgeries, ankle surgery, appendicitis, and a heart attack. I was 27 years old. Oh my word. All with all within a like a two-year period. And you know, we had no insurance because I was self-employed, and so we just plummeted financially. And so we're like, I don't, uh I mean, I'm I told Carolyn, we're done having kids because we can't afford the ones we have, you know. And she's like, Well, well, what won't you think we ought to ask the Lord? You know, and I'm like, Yeah, but he's gonna agree with me. I mean, this is common sense, right? So we decided to have this fast and this prayer. And so we we pray and we we fast, and it's a Sunday, and we we go to church, we come back home, and she's been in Relief Society, and she brings this brochure that she received in Relief Society, and she says, Look at this. And I looked at it, I can I can't remember if it was President Kimball or one of the former prophets that said, Do not hold off having children for financial um school or other reasons. Now, could you have a more direct answer than that, right? But but now I I'm in Abraham's position, not not nearly as much of a sacrifice, but I have a choice. I a choice, yeah. Do I trust? Do I have faith? Do I believe? And we decided, hey, it couldn't have been a more direct answer. We went forward and and um I was working at the mortgage company at the time. I had um I was very limited in income. And during the time that she was pregnant, they promoted me to a branch manager and sent me to Colorado, tripled my income, paid all the debt off before the child was born. And, you know, to us that was like, you know, there is no question that God heard our prayer, he gave us the answer, we acted on it, and and received this great blessing. Now, how does that apply to temple covenants? Well, I think again, we go back to that broken heart and contrite spirit, a willingness to, and like I said, I'm not I'm a stubborn guy. I'm I'm sometimes hard to get down to that broken heart, right? And I've had to be compelled many times, but but um this was one of those times when you know I brought to him what I could offer on the temple. And it and it required a sacrifice. And I think one of the questions that we get asked is what's the difference between your church and another church? Well, the answers come, I think Elder Oaks has said this, it's the priesthood, and it's the priesthood keys. And when you think about that, he says in Doctrine Covenants 84 that the ordinances is the power of the priesthood is manifest in the ordinances. So we have priesthood, then we have ordinances, right? Ordinances, every ordinance has a covenant associated with it. Every covenant requires a sacrifice of a broken heart to live it. And then when we live that sacrifice and we obey and follow it and do actually act on it, then the power comes into our lives and we see those things and we experience them, and then all of a sudden our faith is at a higher level and we've progressed from grace to grace.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

That was a beautiful

Ordinances Create Applied Knowledge And Power

SPEAKER_01 48:22

story. You know, one thing I felt inspired from when you said that, Keith, was this idea that I think a common misunderstood concept of the temple covenants is that they think people think, I know I have, that like I have the covenants are in the temple, and that's where you make those, and I live them in my life, and then uh what I do at church beforehand isn't connected. And I think what we want to, I like I want to think about the covenants and challenge the audience to think about covenants as an umbrella. When we are when people are progressing on the covenant path and they're getting baptized in faith, that those are the foundational elements of the covenants. It's not different. They're all that's it's all one thing, it's all one path. When we talk about covenants and like you know, the washing and anointing, the relationship between the washing and anointing and being baptized and receiving the Holy Ghost is very similar. And the way we want to, I I heard one of my guests describe it was like a connection. All these promises we make to the Lord are connecting, bonding ties to the savior, so we can feel his love and have more.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

Putting on the garment, you know, exactly. Putting on Christ.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

Yeah, putting on Christ. And as we do those things, those things aren't different, they're just deeper and stronger. So those cords get bigger and stronger, and our connection to the savior gets bigger and stronger. So that experience you had where you felt like you weren't able to afford children, you know, that was a I can see the connection because all of those things go to consecration, all of those things go to sacrifice. Anytime anyone does any of those things, in or out of our faith, by the way, they are communicating. We don't have a monopoly of relationships with Jesus. We just have the path that ties us in a way that is so special we want all to have because it's this complete restored truth. So I love that description because it it teaches me that um, again, I don't want to separate going to the mountain of the Lord, doing receiving revelation, coming back. It's like that is true, but every time I'm taking the sacrament, I am also living my covenants. I am building that relationship, that strength of the Lord. And because I've been to the temple, I have a greater depth of result because of it.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Absolutely. Absolutely. And and I really think there is kind of a progressive, you know, kind of process in all of that, you know, that we all are given the light of Christ. It allows us to kind of accept or reject, you know, the truth as we feel it. All man, all mankind has that. And if we accept it, we enter into a covenant of baptism, and then we make these promises, you know, that we'll give ourselves to following Christ and that he gives us his spirit. And we go into the temple, and like you said, we put on Christ with the garment, we put on Christ with the connections. We're really yoking up with Christ in every covenant. It just gives us a little higher level. So first we're we got this power to discern truth. Then we have the power of the Holy Ghost, the gift of the Holy Ghost. Now we're endowed with greater power because they're a little higher covenants. We're in this progressive path, and um, we're qualified for actually receiving more. And, you know, I love what it says in in uh Alma 12, where it talks about those that are, you know, that reject the light and truth receive less and less until they know nothing. And those who accept those, the light of Christ and follow the truth receive more and more until they know all things. Doctrine Covenants 93 tells us the same thing. And so it boy, when we understand that, that's very motivating for all of us to be able to keep that eternal perspective and keep moving. I keep saying eternal perspective because I think like anything else, if you were able to see 10 years down the road and say, what's going to happen with, say, real estate, because that's what I'm doing now, um, you know, in Utah it's predicted to double in the next five to seven years. Yeah, it's power. If you can see eternally down the road, your decisions are going to be so much better. And the other stuff that just kind of doesn't matter, kind of falls off to the sides. And so that covenant relationship helps us to keep that eternal perspective and see down the road and you know, make those decisions on a daily basis with our family, with our children, with ourselves, with overcoming and and you know, all of those things that we have to deal with.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

That's such a cool example of how knowledge is power, which I think is the key way that the Savior, through our temple covenants, uh administers power to us through knowledge, light, revelation, perspective, it's you know, eternal perspectives, like you mentioned. That is the most powerful. It's funny because you know, there's that common phrase knowledge is power, but I had someone once tell me, it's like, no, that's not true. Knowledge is power potential, applied knowledge is the power. So it's we it's in the living of the knowledge where the power is manifest in our lives. And so when we go to the temple, you know, we've all had those experiences where we're we're in the a dark night of an experience and it's horrible and we're on our knees and we're begging, and a thought comes to mind, and and the thought brings us peace. That's knowledge, or a thought comes to mind to do something, and then you act on it, and that's where the miracles in my life have occurred, is as I have these like thoughts. And if I'm if I'm not paying close attention, I'll think they're me. And I'll give myself the glory for having been a vessel for the Lord's thought. But it's true that it's it's in the end, no matter how we shake it down. I when you when you taught those those uh institute kids all those years, those seminary kids, covenants equal power. I think what I'm really learning for me too is it's covenants equal knowledge and applied knowledge equals the power. And it it's it's infinite.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

Very good. I love that. I would I do want to throw one connection in there with it, and that is the grace of Christ, right? With that, with that um connection. Because I liked what you said about, you know, I'll give myself the credit. Well, God's pretty smart because he'll give us a hurdle that we cannot jump over. If we got hurdles that we can jump over and we pray about them and we jump over them, we're still gonna give ourselves the credit. But if we get a hurdle that's a wall, you know, kind of like what I ran into with, you know, all that had happened to me physically and and going into debt and all that kind of stuff, I couldn't see how I could get over it. I had to make a decision that was just based on knowledge, which was what I knew temporally. But when I would expand that to the covenant relationship and that Christ's grace can do all things. And if he wants me to have more children, interestingly, we went from three to nine. And you look at that and it's like, you know what, what would I do without him? You know, it's just been the greatest blessings of my life is to have this family and these children and this relationship and watching them grow. And and that's that's what God sees. He's he looks down at us and his work and glories to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life. And we always go, well, what's that ethereal thing up there? It's eternal life. Well, it's life with God and life like God. But oh well, who cares about that, you know, and and I don't really want to be with my family anyway because we don't get along and whatever.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:13

But what it really comes down to in the very end, the most motivating of all things is the love, but it's also the love that's associated with joy. You can't interview anybody that's in that's sane on the street and ask them, would you like more joy? And then say no. It's always going to be yes. And the eternal laws and these covenants and this restored gospel of Jesus Christ, the whole design of it is to help us to be able to experience that joy. That's his work and glory, is to watch us be happy. And our children, that's all we want for them. We he's giving us a little mini-God experience here on earth to be able to kind of, you know, see how we navigate and use his power and his grace to be able to help them. But our joy comes when our kids are full of joy. I don't care what they accomplish. I think it's that's awesome too. But if they're full of joy and they're happy and at peace, that's that's what I that's where I find joy.

SPEAKER_01 56:09

Man, and that just goes right back to the Abrahamic covenant. What a beautiful tie-in at the end to the temple um and those covenants that we make. Because in the end, it's about joy and what's the greatest source of joy, but those descendants that that make us just so happy. So, Keith, this has been such a great discussion. I have so many things um I'm gonna go think about right now.

Africa Consecration And A Family Legacy

SPEAKER_01 56:30

I but I want to I would love to end our show with a rapid fire questions, um, just really off the cuff, kind of random direction type of elements. Okay. Uh let's start with um let's start with your favorite temple. If you had to pick one, what's your favorite temple?

SPEAKER_00 56:46

Oh, let's see. I guess Salt Lake. That's probably a lot of people's answer. I was I was sealed there with my wife, and uh my parents were, and and and it's being renovated. It's just it's just got great history, you know, and I live by it kind of so I love that.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

I love that. Um, what is um somewhere in the world that you've been that you've loved, or somewhere you want to go?

SPEAKER_00 57:08

You know, our trip to Africa, I I it tend it makes my heart tender every time we talk about it. I have never seen more consecration in my life than I did while we were there. That changed me. That made me realize how little I am consecrated. I have so much here, and they have so little there. And they struggle just to find something to eat and shelter to live under. And those women that were taking care of, you know, Vanessa taking care of, now she's got 200 and some odd 70 kids or something, and she's over them, and they don't even have a meal a day to eat. And she and she's 24 years old, and she is running that whole thing. That's consecration. Molly, you know, and giving his life and giving up the wealth and everything and coming back and taking these kids off the streets. That's love, that's that's Christ. That you see him in him, and that's consecration. Um, the people at the handicapped place where we went, and they they just had the time barely to get them up, change them, feed them, wait till the next meal, feed them again. You know, I I don't know how they rest. That that's consecration. And I'm I'm in the little league here in in comparison. It's just so that trip was probably one of the most um influential trips I've ever taken, and and uh, you know, hope to be able to help somehow out there.

SPEAKER_01 58:30

Yeah, I felt the same way about that Africa trip. Um, I so I it's interesting you mentioned that because I was talking about how we don't have a monopoly of the Lord's love because we're members of the Church of Jesus Christ. Molly. And the yeah, Charles Moley, for those of you who don't know who we're talking about, go watch Molly. It's a documentary on Prime Video, it will change your life. Keith and I had the privilege of spending time with a man who gave up everything, everything to serve God, not a member of our faith. For him, baptism in our church and the and the temple will be a formality. And I believe that's true for all of the so I that's another thing I love about the gospel of Jesus Christ is that it is a straight and narrow path. And you know limiting. It's not limiting. Most religions that don't have the fullness of the gospel. It's like, well, if you don't believe this, you're going to burn in hell. Whereas in our case, we got served by people who don't have the fullness of the gospel, who are celestial beings, who are so consecrated that that that that was our common discussion on the bus was they're just this is a for them, all these decisions after they'd pass, if they don't accept them here because they don't have an opportunity, those will just be formalities. They're so consecrated. These women, these mothers of many, these these kids who've gone through absolute hell. It took me, like you, like you said, I think there was something about witnessing hell firsthand to also be able to be on the front row of heaven simultaneously. They had been or were going through a hell, but yet the grace of our Savior Jesus Christ was so evident that you couldn't help but see in their eyes whether it was their suffering or or their healing from their past traumas, that they knew who their savior was. They could sing the song of redeeming love in a way that I couldn't, even with all and and I and so because we've hit this financial lottery, this zip code lottery, I call it, where we were born in the right zip code and given what we were given. We I think that's where going back to the law of sacrifice again in the temple. When we sacrifice, in air quotes, sacrifice. Like for me, it was really hard for me to get financially and time-wise over there with you. But when we were there, the healing was so exponentially more in my favor. I got on the plane with my wife and I said, I don't have any problems, I don't have a single problem because I've seen worse than I've ever experienced. And they're and they're happy, they're choosing Jesus, they're choosing happiness, and they're okay. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:55

Well said again, well, well said, just so well said. It's just an amazing thing to watch. And anyway, uh, it will affect it will bless my life forever just having been been there.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

Well, come back with me. We're going back. We'll talk about that another time. Temple Bound is gonna be going back, and I would like anyway, we'll talk. Last question. What this is you know, this is about Temple and Covenants, but the last part's family history. I it's not lost on us that you're gonna have your kids, your grandkids, your you're probably 340 great grandkids at some point. What would you want them to know? Like we we talked about covenants and power. What would you tell them directly as they're seeing you now? What would you want them to know about uh covenant power?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:37

I guess this is it, is in in a nutshell, and you you know, it doesn't come all at once that there is nothing that you can sacrifice on this life in this life that would be too much to pay of a price to pay to be able to receive all that the father wants to give us. We we talk about the oath and covenant of the priesthood, and in the end it says, and all that the father hath will be those who you know accept these priesthoods, in other words, the the ordinances and covenants that associate with them. And so stay on the covenant path. Um, if you get off, don't let the shame and the guilt and that those feelings affect you. Just just learn from them, write down your thoughts. What can I do different? And and that's why we have them, and that's why we're here, is to be able to experience you know this life and and all of the things that go with it, the good and the bad and the ugly. And uh, you know, the fact that we do have a lot and we are in an affluent country. Don't let the affluence of people around you, of, you know, the the kind of the this this grasping for wealth and grasping for money and grasping for the things of the world and the notoriety that comes on social media and all of those things. You have to be protected from that. You've got to be able to have a space where you and the Lord are able to communicate on a regular basis that keeps you on that covenant path. And that's a difficult thing. So I we talk about we have so much. That's kind of our our covenant, our our challenge, right? Is to have a lot and to know what to do with it. And so look for ways to be able to consecrate and focus your what we do have and what the blessings are to be able to give out to the world. That's where the joy comes. It's not going to be in a big house, it's not gonna be in a nice car. It's it's gonna be in in what we're able to give and what we become.

Closing Message And Credits

SPEAKER_01 1:03:31

So thank you, Keith. This was such a great show. Thank you so much for taking time to be with us.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:36

Well, thank you, and thank you for doing this podcast. Um, that's that's an awesome thing. It gets out, uh the word gets out to people, and I I really appreciate the opportunity to to visit with you and the way you are able to pull thoughts out. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:49

That you are awesome, and I'd love to have you back. And thank you to all of you who are tuning in to today's episode of Temple Bound. We are so grateful that you took this consecrated time with on a walk or on a church day when you're just getting ready, whatever it is. Thank you so much. It means so much to me. And we just want to remind you, as always, that you are loved. You are you are special and you matter for one reason and one reason only, because you exist. So never give up. Until next time. Temple Bound is brought to you by the Light on a Hill Foundation, a nonprofit aimed at building and strengthening families across the globe. Produced by Heather Humphreys, edited by Seth Patubo, with show notes and social media managed by Isabel Dizon and Kimberly Simvahan. Wardrobe by Anne Collar. These views and opinions expressed by the host and guests are on their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. Thank you for joining us today as we continue learning, growing, and striving to bind our lives closer to Savior. Until next time.