LIFTOFF: The Art & Science of Conversation

2. WHO: Is Everyone Here?

• Ilana Gilovich • Season 1 • Episode 2

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LIFTOFF: The Art & Science of Conversation
Episode 2

In Episode 2, host Ilana Gilovich explores how to build conversational environments in which all participants feel empowered to take creative risks.

Featured Guests:

Morsels Mentioned:

Video Interview:

  • The full video interview with Brandon Kazen-Maddox is available here with subtitles, so podcast audiences can both see and hear the conversation. Transcripts for all LIFTOFF episodes are available on Buzzsprout.

ILANA GILOVICH: [00:00:00] Welcome back to Liftoff. Last episode, we learned that an adept conversationalist makes their partner feel comfortable by providing enthusiasm, attentiveness, and reassurance. On this episode of Liftoff, we explore that notion in depth through the WHO of conversation. So much of what makes conversation memorable, laughter, mutual vulnerability, even friendly and respectful disagreement happens only when all parties are at ease.

So in order to coax out that feeling of collective, joyful abandon and conversation, we must create conversational environments in which all beings feel safe, free, and empowered to take creative risks.

For those rolling their eyes right now. Hear me out. Establishing a welcoming conversational environment does not mean simply paying lip service to the notion of inclusion. By designing an inclusive conversational space, we are already seeking out an aspect of great conversation, the expansion [00:01:00] of our minds through novel ideas and new ways of seeing the world.

Here's an example. As I embark on my quest to discover what makes conversation great, that quest is already framed by my relatively narrow life experience. As a 33-year-old white female identifying person raised in New York, the more I seek out other contexts for conversation. Why silence might be more welcome in some cultures than others or how the familiar and formal versions of the word you in other languages can text your conversation.

The richer my own conversations and my understanding of what conversation is can become. For this podcast, I had the opportunity to chat with the brilliant Brandon Kazen- Maddox, an artist, choreographer, director, actor, acrobat activist, and ASL artist, performer, and interpreter. Brandon creates work with and for the deaf and disability communities and highlights and empowers Bipoc and L-G-B-T-Q-I plus artists [00:02:00] building bridges of collaboration and community among people of all backgrounds and abilities.

To converse with Brandon is to participate in what feels like an exquisite, interdisciplinary art piece. One that offers nourishment for both the eyes and the ears. Guess what can happen in conversation? Brandon's vast dimensional perspective fundamentally altered my perception of this podcast. In the show notes, you'll find a link to a YouTube video of our entire conversation, which showcases Brandon's braiding of visual and oral communication, Brandon's awareness of various perspectives and flex how they converse.

Take for instance, this moment they provided a visual description for listeners. 

BRANDON KAZEN-MADDOX: I didn't do an image description, which I feel like might be a good thing. So my visual description for myself, I am a caramel skinned black person, non-binary. Um, I have [00:03:00] dark brown. Black locks that are about shoulder length.

Mm-Hmm. Um, right now I have braided into my hair, the colors that are like deep red, golden rod. White and turquoise dark blue and light blue. And I'm wearing a turquoise, uh, kind of silk shirt and I'm sitting in a room with a white background with books on shelves, um, and some other pictures. Um, and my fingernails are painted like a nude pink super glitter.

ILANA GILOVICH: These conversational considerations may not occur to some of us, but they clearly add dimension and texture to an interaction. Imagine if describing our physical presentation was a regular part of conversation, we would consider ourselves and one another in a more whimsical, descriptive fashion, while also including those who might not be able to visually see.

Listen to this [00:04:00] next excerpt with Brandon about our conversation across multiple languages, including a SL, and consider how it might expand our understanding of what conversation can be. 

BRANDON KAZEN-MADDOX: I was very blessed to be born into this family that is a deaf family. And so what I mean by that is that my grandma and grandpa are both deaf on my mom's side and um.

And so that means that my, my mom and my two aunts and my uncle, um, who were all born two years apart from 1970 to 1976, um. Are all CODAS and a CODA is a, an acronym for a child of deaf adults, CODA. Everyone has their own unique experience with sign language from deaf people to hard of hearing people, to CODAS to SODAS, which is a, a sibling [00:05:00] of deaf, of a deaf adult.

Um, I'm a GODA, so I'm a grandchild of deaf adults, but I'm also a CODA because I was raised in the same home. For my whole life from birth to like, I don't know when I could drive. And I was like, bye, love you. Um, you know? Yeah. But that's where my communication system comes from. Mm-Hmm. And, um, and yeah, I, so right now I'm using simultaneous communication or I'm talking and signing at the same time.

And it's interesting because interpreters are cautioned to not do that, to not. Talk and sign at the same time. Because ASL itself is its own language, it's, it has its own grammar. It has five grammatical parameters of like hand shape and location on your body and movement of how your hands are moving, your facial expressions and your palm orientation, like where, if it's yours or mine or theirs.

So those are [00:06:00] like. The basics of the grammar of ASL. Um, and oftentimes deaf people want us who use our voices to turn off our voices and to just use those, those grammatical parameters and sign. Um, however, I mean, I grew up. Simultaneously signing and talking. ASL is my first language before I could speak.

You know, it's a physical communication language, um, visual gestural language. So when I communicate, I, it is natural. It is my first instinct to use my hands, and I always say that my hands. Doing the thinking and my words just follow what my hands are saying. So it is, it's fascinating, and I realize my fullest personality is this one, the one that you see with me talking and signing.

Another personality is me just talking because then I have to put [00:07:00] all of my hands and my face and my shoulders, and I'm not using my hands. Another personality is Spanish, which is like. How you even use your body. You know, your, the roundness in your throat, in Spanish words and phrases is, is so beautiful and romantic.

Mm-Hmm. And then in French you have like the, the words your tongue. Works differently and like the R of French and like it's so much smaller and it's like a war language. It is. It's like you can speak it really quietly and no one can understand what you're saying. You speak it really best and it's so fascinating and it's like, ah, the culture that is mixed with the linguistics.

ILANA GILOVICH: It's fascinating to think that when we chat with multilingual conversationalists in a given language, we may be experiencing only a fraction of their fullest expression or personality. Enter David Pizarro, professor of Moral Psychology at Cornell University and teacher of Cornell's largest [00:08:00] class, psychology 1 0 1.

David is also the co-host of an excellent and deservedly popular podcast on the science and philosophy of human morality called Very Bad Wizards. I asked David about the facets of his personality that emerge through English versus Spanish conversations. 

DAVID PIZARRO: You're the only person to ask me that question because, but I, I love it because I feel that yes, I mean, in some ways it's, it's always me, but, um.

You know, like for somebody raised in a bicultural setting like I was, where I'm speaking Spanish at home, um, and really Spanish at home to half of the people. Hmm. And then English everywhere else. A lot of me speaking Spanish has, like the way that I talk to family about it, like I've never been a professional in Spanish.

So I think my sense of humor, like there are also just cultural stuff, like my sense [00:09:00] of humor and my joke telling is different in Spanish, I think in English. Yeah. There's something that's still there. You know, I'm still a little bit off color. Um, but, but I always do feel that way. And there's even some evidence that when bilingual speakers take personality tests in their native, uh, or let's say in, in their home language, say, versus the culture in which they're residing, um, that they get slightly different results. Um, so, so yeah, I think this is all pointing to something interesting that I hadn't thought of, which is about identity. Yeah. And I think that. The resistance that maybe some, sometimes we have or people have to being a chameleon and saying, I'm, I'm different at home than I am at school, than I'm at work, or something like that might be because we have some sense that we ought to be the same person. And I think there's a very western thing that like there is a true self. Right. [00:10:00] That true self is like inside of you. And so much of life is about finding that true self and letting it be expressed. But I, I have always felt that myself is identified so strongly with the relationships I have and that I can't have an identity without. Those relationships, like when you think about it, the only way that you can really express yourself is through your relationships with other people. Something, at least my favorite works of art are things that, that tell me something about the human experience. Something that I kind of know already, but something that I hadn't felt so sharply and something that gives me some sort of insight into the human condition in general. Hmm. Or, or people's experiences that I, um, that. You know, I can kind of relate to, but not fully. So I've learned to relate to somebody else in this, in [00:11:00] this parasocial way. It's, it's like feeding you in the same way that a good conversation you come away feel, even if you're tired, you feel energized. 

ILANA GILOVICH: We want to feed ourselves and one another through mutual understanding and revelation. In order to do that, we must acknowledge and embrace the mosaic of life experiences that each person carries with them into conversation.

For the best advice on how to authentically create inclusive conversation, I spoke with Alejandro Rodriguez. Alejandro is a writer, director and founder of Alejo Communication: an arts based consulting firm that works with growing companies to develop inclusive, dynamic and prosperous work cultures, surgeons general warning.

I dare you to listen to this episode and not fall in love with Alejandro. His is the kind of soul that reaffirms one's faith in humanity. And as you'll hear, he's a stalwart champion of difference. 

ALEJANDRO RODRIGUEZ: There were lots of languages being [00:12:00] spoke. There was lots of folks who had come from elsewhere. Um, in my house, there was two languages.

My grandparents never really picked up English. Um, and so there was a lot of in between. Going in between for me that I didn't name that way until many years later. But I was translating. I was, um, I was sort of listening to like hip hop music, but, and my earbuds, but when I'd take them off, there'd be Celia Cruz in the living room.

I was translating for my grandparents at at school functions. So I've learned to. Not try to immediately collapse difference. To honor it the way that we feel in a room profoundly affects how we're able to play and take risks. 

ILANA GILOVICH: When listening to this excerpt from our conversation, you'll hear Alejandro's sincerity, his innate curiosity, his [00:13:00] eloquence, and his gift for toying with ideas.

Like many of my favorite conversations, it all starts with a book. Thank you so much for bringing up that book because even earlier, as I was saying, watching your facilitation, you are walking the talk, you are embodying the kind of world you wanna live into. I think Pleasure Activism does that inform and content in such a breathtaking, stunning way?

The idea that it's written and gathered. And it's this beautiful parade, this bouquet of voices in this, in, in this incredible collection, and that she is standing for something rather than against something. It's a very incisive critique, but it is so positive and so galvanizing and. The idea of the warmth of her voice and the optimism of her perspective, reflecting the idea that pleasure can be a [00:14:00] radical political act was beyond 

ALEJANDRO RODRIGUEZ: 1000%.

And you said something that I really want pick up and run a little bit with. Um, you said she stands for something which makes her a, a, a truly um. For me has been a, a profound, and I would even say transformative voice in my life, right? Um, but through Adrienne and actually through, uh, a, a community of folks that Adrienne is, is a part of that.

I met through some work I was doing in Durham. I was in two, two years I spent in the, the triangle region. I made a lot of friends in Durham where, where Adrienne came and did some work. Um, but she's not alone in this. Larger fabric and she calls in through her books a number of the people, um, that she's in conversation with and names people who are no longer with us on this plane that she's in conversation with.

Yes. [00:15:00] And one of the things that they have in many of them have in common, the ones that have. Really, really been teachers of mine in this work, um, is that they speak about difference and even identity in ways that I feel like a lot of my colleagues, um, I wish they'd get, I, I wish they'd, um, access to, because I find.

Certain, um, certain folks are only part of conversations around identity and diversity in terms of what they're against. 

ILANA GILOVICH: Yes. 

ALEJANDRO RODRIGUEZ: And it feels very charged and divisive and it feels like a, a blood sport, you know? Mm-Hmm. And I listen and I think I, and I feel like a sadness because I'm just gonna name one and I have a quote.

The only thing I brought in preparation for this conversation was a quote of Audre Lorde, who obviously is a, um, is a. A, a, a godmother, uh, a a uh, sort [00:16:00] of a a, an ancestor of this conversation. Adrienne names her all the time in her work. Um, but when I finally had a, a, a, an intimate relationship with her actual writing, I realized how yes, she, she was naming a lot of harmful systems, a lot of, um, places of violence that she was naming, but all of it was motivated by this.

Um, desire for life and joy and pleasure and, um, connection and human connection. Human connection across difference. She was in deep, intimate relationships with people of all gender. She, she had a child with a man. She was a long partnered for a long time with a white woman. She, um. Understood difference to be a source of texture and intrigue and mystery and, um, and yet.

It was weaponized against her, so she also had to name that. You know [00:17:00] what I mean? Yes, yes. And so one of the things that you got me really excited when you said that is that I call my, the folks who, who wanna be part of this conversation and not feel shut down by it, to find the voices who are, who are speaking in this conversation, um, but are painting pictures of future possibilities in ways that are really compelling.

Mm-Hmm. Um. I can, I find it incredibly motivating, incredibly inspiring, even as it makes me aware of the systems that need to go, you know, that need to be yes, dismantled, and it, it, it doesn't zap me of energy. It, it just fills me with, with, um, yeah, with motivation for the road ahead, you know? Um. 

ILANA GILOVICH: I think energy is a really important word there.

And which ties back to your idea, the only constant is change. Mm-Hmm. And I think acknowledging the Alejandro ing, the Ilana ing, the idea of [00:18:00] constant movement is so essential because I think standing. Against something is so static and loses its energy, it loses its kinetic momentum and I feel that so deeply.

Speaking of Audre Lorde, like I reading her writing, I felt the critique of white women and I also felt the invitation yes to, to sisterhood. The calling me forward in a. You can be this, help us transform this. And I think there, this is, this is a longing, a deep yearning that I have. Um. Because I think right now, at least in the United States, there are entire political platforms that are only built on standing against, right. Different things. And I feel like if we had the humanity and the compassion to meet those people there and just ask for a rhetorical shift in terms of, wow, I'm hearing that you feel really afraid of in immigrants, which is [00:19:00] being translated as you hate immigrants. Let's try to just change that into what, what do you stand for? Are you for American jobs? Because those are not the same thing. And I think creative energy is something that can alleviate so much of the depression, the vitriol, the static energy that everything that people say they're against. I think if we have a way to say there's some kernel of something good in there and it's wrapped in all of this sort of hateful rhetoric and belief, but if instead we can kindle that small seed of what you do want to create mm-hmm. I think the movement of creating something will actually make you see, oh, these two concepts are not linked at all. 

ALEJANDRO RODRIGUEZ: No, no, no. And, and in some ways I, I, I really appreciate the word invitation. I do feel that in, in her writing. Um, I. Because in some ways what she's so deeply aware of is this is the stuff that's getting in our way towards [00:20:00] where we ultimately want to be, which so many of us share, which is safe and loved.

Yes. Loved, and loved and known, safe, known, seen, loved, right? And so what she's aware of is supremacist ideologies. Hurt all of us, right? Because some of the people who are the most passionate about those stand against platforms are not, and I think they share that they're not terribly happy right now. No.

For the, for either, you know, and I, again, I, I'm, I recognize I'm sweeping thousands of people into this category, but in my, I'll say it, in my lived experience, some of the people who speak with the most. Vitriol against, um, what they think is wrong with this country or this world aren't doing it from a place of, um, satisfaction and poison compo composure.

And so I [00:21:00] think your your sort of like approach of curiosity, like what are you after, what are you missing that you don't have, you know. Um, might allow us to start unraveling. And I think, I think if folks are in that, in good faith, they'd recognize, oh, um, needing to be better, needing to be above others isn't actually serving me.

Mm-Hmm. Um, needing to occupy center at all times is actually, um, is actually a losing game in the end, you know? 

ILANA GILOVICH: Yes, and I think there's some, um, some idea that difference resolves, dissolves the self or threatens the self. I think when people have a, a fear of difference, it's about that their, their own sense of self feels so destabilized that.

This could be a threat to me if this other [00:22:00] entity exists, but there's a sense to me that your conversation about difference and also the conversation we've been having about movement and identity, as always, protean always shifting, always becoming, makes me think, God, I want as much input as I could possibly get into this, this perishable structure that I'm ferrying through the world.

Like I want to know you. I want to know all the people that know you. I wanna continue to. Amass this mosaic of lived experience and like, how can you do that? Just surrounded by, as you say, our deeply ingrained biological urge to just know, rather than to learn. 

ALEJANDRO RODRIGUEZ: That's right. And and I, I, I appreciate you brought in biology because we now have study after study that, that shows us it's connected to longevity and health.

Right. Um, the, the health of brains as they age, that are exposed to novelty, to discovery, to who are learning, who are picking up languages, learning instruments, [00:23:00] um, getting into new, they. The science is some somewhat unequivocal at this point. They last longer. Those brains are healthier in general, um, because you, you, as you say, they're embracing all of those particles that are crashing against them and helping them define and redefine and redefine and redefine and expand the borders of who they are and what's possible for them.

Um, so there's a real. It could not be more practical, you know, embrace difference, live longer. You know, like you can grow bold as you develop that elasticity. I, I, I think so much about. Trust I, there are these words that are quite conceptual and that often for me can float away into the ether. Like, uh, the people in my line of work are always talking about trust building or relationship building.

Mm. You know, oh, come in and do some team building exercise. So I see that on a mandate, like a [00:24:00] proposal or an invitation, and I wonder what is actually, what does that mean? What does that look like when it's happened in my life? Um. There's something that for me, that it happens across time. There is something that repeat exposure or prolonged exposure allows you to, so there is a, a temporal kind of variable to it.

Mm-Hmm. Then there is that desire to move with care, but to move forward with care, to sort of grow our level of intimacy, if, if that's the right word, and maybe it isn't always, but it's the one that comes to grow it together based on what that container and that relationship can hold at that moment. And then suddenly over time we realize like, oh, this holds a lot, it even holds some grave mistakes that you or I might make, you know?

Wow. It even can survive that. And I think in the field of, you know, d diversity, equity, and inclusion, [00:25:00] oftentimes we get trapped into to, to, to being prompted to give formulas and techniques and methodologies and stuff that, as you said earlier, is very static. You know, say this or don't say this, or Here's a way to approach this or, and it misses the larger and more profound point of like.

What's possible in a trusting relationship and how you might develop that with somebody or a group of people. Um, and I just don't think there's any straight path to it. You know? There's nothing Yes, no trainer can shortcut you on that road, you know? 

ILANA GILOVICH: Which I think connects to what you were saying earlier, which is whether it's a human being to human being relationship or an entity relationship, um, what is the why?

Why are we coming to the table? And I think often if the why can be parsed out of standing for standing against it often [00:26:00] does dictate how that interaction goes. So I think sometimes when companies have a mandate or an invitation for DEI initiatives. I can always sense if it's an aversion to getting canceled and a, a checking the box, a feeling of avoiding, you know, any, any type of danger, perceived danger.

And then you can also tell when A DEI initiative is about embracing and creative and inspiration, and that feels so galvanizing and it's. So decisive early on about what do you want to avoid versus what do you want to create, and you do have to outline what you want to avoid, as you've said, in order to create.

But I think the primary motivation has to be something about. Not protecting people by certain strategies and saying the right thing, but instead including everyone by creating this most dynamic space [00:27:00] possible. 

ALEJANDRO RODRIGUEZ: Fear, fear-based. Yeah, absolutely. Fear leaks. Right? You you can smell it in an email. Totally.

And, and, and you're right. I think this ha this moment has, um, has. Knocked some people into that posture that, that fear of whatever posture. Um, and yeah, and, and I think it's, it's most, it's most extreme in folks who have never, I. Had to navigate fear and risk. Um, I, I, I think it's worth saying that there are those among us.

Um, and this is true in different ways for, for you and I I am sure, but, and, and much truer for others, um, who that like watching what they say and Yeah. And being aware of landmines and trip wires in every room they're in has been a daily. Part of their lives. [00:28:00] Yes. And so they're not necess, they're not always the ones who are thrown by this moment.

It's the folks who are like, wait, I used to just say what came to my mind. It, it, it, it's so much, it's, it's harder now. It's less fun now. And you know the words like politically correct, which often. Really just mean like consideration, you know, for what, what you're saying and who you're in the room with.

And, and then, then the, the other misunderstanding of that it be that it is a conversation based, as you said, on what you're against and what you ought to avoid when. I think it is a, a source of such energy. Um, and you're right. When someone's inviting you in with that understanding, it becomes like a, a great, um, a jam.

It becomes a jam. Yes. It actually makes me, if I'm, if you're okay with it, read that quote that [00:29:00] I brought because I think please speaks right to this whole conversation. So I'm drawing a couple of sentences, um, from a book of essays called Sister Outsider. Yes. So she's, she writes difference must not merely be tolerated, but seen as a fund of necessary polarities.

Between which our creativity can spark like a dialectic. Hmm. Only within that interdependency of different strengths, acknowledged and equal can the power to seek new ways of being in the world generate difference is that raw and powerful connection from which our personal power is forged in our world.

Divide and conquer. I. Must become, define and empower.

ILANA GILOVICH: Got me good. [00:30:00] Oh, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And thank you for reading it and the way that you did. Oh

yeah, it just, it makes me think about we are. We are beings in relation to that is our fate. That is our lot in life. That is the greatest gift we've been given, that none of us can live in a silo. And what a, what a ma. If we go back to translation, all the best art is translation, is trying to put words and art, music to the in effort.

Ineffable. Mm-Hmm. And it's like the, the, the idea of translating for and alongside one another necessarily embraces failure and mistake and misunderstanding. And that the beauty is trying to get to that place where we most can understand one another. [00:31:00] Yes. 

ALEJANDRO RODRIGUEZ: Because what does, what do, what do our particles know of?

Mistakes. Right? We, we are in tension, in, in expansion and contraction. There is dissonance, there is harmony. We are just these contexts meeting each other, you know? Yeah. These two contexts meeting each other. And it, and, and as I talk to you, Ilana, it makes me realize like. A joy ride. It could be to admit to that and then like surf that with another person, you know, fall falls and all falls and get back up and, you know, um, let me share this from my, from my, you know, context, from my wor my cosmos over here.

And let me hear from you and, and, um, it's all motion. [00:32:00] So emotion, our, our ability to feel safe within all of that, to find safety with on within all of that makes, makes that joy ride possible. 

ILANA GILOVICH: Yes, and I, I appreciate so much you bringing in that quote because Lorde stresses that kind of equally recognized difference as imperative to the future of our species.

I mean, it really does feel like you can't exist and we've, again, one of the systems or the frameworks we've inherited without interrogating it is this idea of. Of Darwinian competition. 

When in reality there's so much of species are constantly in collaboration and in conversation with each other, and as long as each species isn't taking more than they need to survive, the most incredible diversity and interdependence flourishes 

ALEJANDRO RODRIGUEZ: indeed.

The edge effect, as they call it. The, [00:33:00] uh, I once heard, I, I actually heard this, that I think it was this, uh, uh, lecture of Yo-Yo Ma, he talked about that very phenomenon and he explained it as in the place where two ecosystems meet, let's say like a marsh. I. And, um, uh, a marsh and a, a forest or a, a beachhead and, uh, some woodland, you know, um, anywhere where two different bio regions but up against each other is always the most f Um, yes, it's always, um, the one that presents that, that produces the most diverse forms of life.

Um. So, 

ILANA GILOVICH: which is talked about in breeding Sweetgrass too. Robin Wall Kimmerer talks about this and that. It's, I mean, the, the poetic system of that concept is so profound that on the margins where diversity exists 

is the most fertile. And I think about your, your explanation of rap taking off your headphones, and [00:34:00] Celia Cruz being like that is that fertile Crescent.

ALEJANDRO RODRIGUEZ: Yes. Oh, thank you for saying that, that my, you just made my spirit somersault. Um, because just I can say personally, I, I did, I, I trained as an actor and I came through this, I would say through a side door. And there are moments where I, I suffer. I, I, I. I have to endure a bit of, uh, imposter syndrome, or endure is not the right word, but I have to face a little bit of imposter syndrome because now there's a field and there's accreditation and there's, um, uh, credentializing that can happen.

And I, I've done some of it. I haven't done all of it, but I, I, I, I sometimes wonder, um. What legitimizes me in this conversation, and when you say that, I realize my lived experience does, you know, my, having been on those, those, um, borders for all of my life before I knew that I was [00:35:00] chasing a sense of belonging or helping others find it and, um, trying to.

Fertilize inclusion for people like me and people very different from me. And, um, anyway, this is a long-winded way of saying thank you for saying that. It's made my tummy smile. 

ILANA GILOVICH: Oh, I've always, I'm always endeavoring to make tummy smile. We humans have difficulty allowing breathing room for us to be both separate and connected.

We are oneness, fractured, and perfectly finding our way back to one another. Again, can we hold both the human legacy that we share and the infinite variety that makes that legacy beautiful. Conversation. Like all robust artistic mediums has the capacity to expand our perception of the world. When we hone our awareness and appreciation of difference, we augment our aptitude for harmonious scintillating and mind altering conversation.

So in your next conversation, consider what you might not know and what [00:36:00] someone else might be able to teach you, and most importantly, how you might be able to leave your conversation having recognized something unique and radiant in one another.

Liftoff was created and directed by Ilana Gilovich and produced by Greg Hanson. The featured guests on this episode were Brandon Kazen- Maddox, David Pizarro, and Alejandro Rodriguez. If you like liftoff, please share it with your friends and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, so the power of potent and playful conversation can continue.