LIFTOFF: The Art & Science of Conversation

3. WHERE: Setting the Mood

• Ilana Gilovich • Season 1 • Episode 3

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LIFTOFF: The Art & Science of Conversation
Episode 3

In Episode 3, host Ilana Gilovich learns how to design conversational environments to encourage vibrant conversation.

Featured Guests:

Morsels Mentioned:

Transcripts for all LIFTOFF episodes are available on Buzzsprout.

ILANA GILOVICH: [00:00:00] Recall one of your most invigorating conversations. Now, if you can visualize that conversation in detail. What time of day was it? Where were you in space? What did your surroundings look, sound and feel like? Last episode, we explored the who of conversation in order to welcome all kinds of conversationalists, and in doing so, expand our understanding of what conversation can be.

This episode of Liftoff is all about the where, how to approach conversation. From a design perspective, we rarely contemplate our physical context for conversation, but as it turns out, we can court fulfilling conversation just like we would a timid house guest by mindfully designing an inviting environment that might entice great conversation to occur.

Alejandro Rodriguez, our guest from last episode, offers proposals as a way of pairing a specific kind of conversation with its ideal environment. 

ALEJANDRO RODRIGUEZ: I embrace the language [00:01:00] of proposals a lot. Like if I, I, I, if I hear someone say, Hey, I want to catch up, you know? Yeah. That's such a simple offering, but they're telling me something about why they wanna put some time aside on Zoom or get lunch.

Right? That might inspire an a follow-up question that might inspire a proposal. Hey, you wanna go on a walk? You know, um, there's something about being shoulder to shoulder that might facilitate a, a session of kind of sharing and dreaming and, um, but if someone says, I've gotta get something off my chest.

Hey, can we talk? I've gotta get something off my chest. Right? That's going to. Inspire a whole other set of proposals. And why I use the word proposals is because it, it invites a little spaciousness for us to potentially co-author because if I, if I share something with you as a proposal, you then feel a little invited to say, actually I'm thinking a walk is not so good for this [00:02:00] conversation.

I'm, I've been running around, is it okay if you come to my apartment or I actually think, you know, might be good to. To sit and face each other in a still place, you know? Mm. Um, but I would say that's kind of the beginning. A two part is sort of try to try to co-sign on a why, and then offer each other proposals.

ILANA GILOVICH: The context and conditions in which we conduct conversation are decisive in how those conversations evolve, but we're often unaware of that fact. If we're anxious about navigating awkward silences in conversation with someone we don't know too well, we can actually feel empowered to propose a conversational environment that accommodates these stretches of silence.

I spoke with my dad, social psychologist, Tom Gilovich from episode one about different conversational environments. 

TOM GILOVICH: What's nice about the hiking environment is there's no pressure to have a conversation. We talk richly for 15 minutes and then we get [00:03:00] distracted and we look at some awe inspiring part of nature, and that drifting in and drifting out allows you to, I.

Drift in and out of a particular topic. We talk about one thing, it seems to be exhausted. Um, and then, oh, some second thoughts about that. And we go a little bit deeper and, uh, I. Contrast that to the dinner party conversation where we're right across from one another and whatever we've got to say, we've gotta say it right now, and there's no drifting out.

We're each at the cocktail party just being silent looking at each other. That doesn't work. But on a car ride, on a hike, uh, you're side by side and that makes the whole conversational enterprise in a certain way easier. Um, and that's given rise to the, the revisiting of a topic that stretches out over several hours.

Those are some [00:04:00] of the most gratifying that I can recall. 

ILANA GILOVICH: I'm so glad you raised this because it was on my list of bullet points to address with you is the idea of the hiking conversation. 'cause that's one that I've relished so much with you and with other people, and I wonder if it's. In addition to feeling like you're facing forward, is there something about diverted attention that you're able to, because you're in your body and you're moving and you're taking in these sites that you're not, you don't have any excess space for that anxiety that seems to hover over a lot of these other more face-to-face conversations.

TOM GILOVICH: Yeah, I think that's right. And what is the nature of that anxiety? Um, we've asked people when you're concerned about a conversation not going well, what, what springs to mind and what, uh, a vast majority of people say is, oh, there would be some sort of awkward silence. Uh, and that's [00:05:00] easy. Relatively easy to experience when, again, we're at a cocktail party.

It's we're face-to-face with one another. We hear other people laughing and, and we compare our conversation with theirs. Notice how difficult that conversational environment is to the context where we're walking through nature and, uh, we have great things to talk about. We share them. That's gratifying.

And then there's a little lull. We don't even think of it as a lull. We think of it as, oh my God, look at that part of, you know, the meadow, look at that cliff face, uh, look at that waterfall. Um, and so, uh, it's just easier in that kind of environment for a great many people. Um, if you're a afraid of nature, not too many people are, but some are.

That's gonna make it a more challenging environment. But for most people, um, I think that kind of situation, uh, makes it easier. [00:06:00] It gets rid of the fear of the awkward silence. 

ILANA GILOVICH: Totally. And I'm actually thinking about other non nature for the people that are afraid of nature, I guess hypothetically. Um.

Different, different options for that. And one thing I'm thinking of is a museum walking with someone in a museum where you feel like each person has autonomy and it's okay to be by yourself and be silent and be gazing at this other object. But then it's okay to come back together and have some sort of ideally hushed commentary together.

Um, and the other one I'm thinking about is our card games. For listeners, my dad, it's a, it's a family tradition actually inherited by my mom and my dad. But, um, we play a two person game of solitaire because clearly we don't want solitaire to live up to its name and it's one of my favorite family pastimes to be you.

You're sitting on the same side of the table. So it's a very similar visual setup as being in a car. And we play the card game and we talk, but we can also attend to the game. So I'm almost wondering if, [00:07:00] for people that. Want to have good conversations but are afraid of those awkward silences if they're on a first date, or if they wanna be with a friend or a coworker, but it's in a more casual environment.

What's something that you can do that you can both be interfacing with an object of note with spaciousness to also interact with each other. 

TOM GILOVICH: Yeah, I think for a lot of people that's consuming media. Um, you know, in a prototypical, uh, male environment, it doesn't have to be male. Uh, two guys or several guys watching a football game.

You then your attention's drawn to the football game and at various times you can withdraw that attention from the game and. Talk to each other. And that happens during commercials, especially timeouts, et cetera. Uh, but that takes some of the conversational pressure away, uh, much like hiking does. 

ILANA GILOVICH: And do you think, this isn't necessarily so [00:08:00] scientific, I'm just curious about your opinion.

Do you think that that's a good thing? Do you think kind of massaging those awkward pauses. By getting fodder from somewhere else is a nice thing, or is it, um, kind of accommodating our intolerance with silence in a way that could be detrimental? Would it be better if we kind of worked that muscle a little more?

TOM GILOVICH: I. That's a hard question. I don't have an answer for that, but I'll go out on a limb and say, I, I think you're onto something that, uh, this by making. Some conversations too easy. You might also be dumbing them down.

And, uh, when I invoke these two comparisons of the long day long hike versus watching the football game, I have the feeling on the long day long hike that the drifting in and out [00:09:00] of talking and not talking. The feeling is that we're going deeper and deeper. I don't get that feeling from watching the football game.

It might be comforting, oh, we're now distracted. We don't have to worry about, uh, awkward silences. But I don't get the same feeling of we are going deeper. And sometimes that's a problem. If you, you know, we, we, I think we all like having. This sounds like a pathology, uh, richer social connections than poorer ones.

And if the football game is impoverishing your connection, you probably should think of different ways to talk to each other 

ILANA GILOVICH: for advice on designing friendly conversational environments. I consulted Tessa Velazquez. I. Tessa is a chef, restaurant owner, founder and writer of the Cooking Newsletter, the Sobremesa and Co-founder of Women's Culinary Collective.

Yes, babe. Tessa believes that the best moments are created around food in Spanish culture. This is called the Sobremesa. That [00:10:00] magical time at the dinner table where the inside jokes are formed, the deep conversation occurs, and the real human connection begins. Tessa's passion for the food and beverage industry is rooted in helping to make those moments happen.

I. 

TESSA VELAZQUEZ: I put a lot of care and intention to it, so none of it just happened. I'm really. I am careful with the setting because I want people to feel that way. And I think that's our job as, as hosts or people who are in service. And that's just years of doing it is the type of music is important, right? The type of music you're gonna have is gonna actually evoke certain feelings.

The lighting is important. Don't even start it online. And when I go into like the big bright, I'm just like, what? Or if it's too dark and there's like one candle in, you know. Lighting is important to set a mood like this space, like I'll clear out my apartment and design it in a certain way to kind of have big open space so that it's not actually just like little chairs and pockets and couches that are gonna promote more like sitting down and talking to just one person.

You have to stand and kind of interact with everyone. And my kitchen is set up that it's a big [00:11:00] island, right? So you're kind of seeing into the kitchen and you can even go back there and say, Hey, and like grab a drink. You know? Those are ways for us all to like break down those barriers too. 

ILANA GILOVICH: How Tessa establishes a space is critical in encouraging fluid and easeful conversation.

TESSA VELAZQUEZ: Serving the food is I purposely, you know, I don't have big bowls and big serving things. Part of that's 'cause I'm lazy out, wanna clean. But really I think it's more communal and interesting. If I put out the board, I put out the butcher paper and we all eat on one surface, which, you know, I didn't invent this.

Cultures have been doing this for thousands and thousands of years. It's only pretty recently we've been eating out of these like big bowls. Putting onto the plate with a, with a fork. People eat with their hands, people eat with chopsticks. You know, people have been doing this forever. So I'm kind of just going back to that idea, which I think breaks down barriers already.

I wonder and allows people to have a more organic conversation because those barriers of dining have also been broken down. 

ILANA GILOVICH: I love this. And I also think, [00:12:00] um, one of the, the fears that have been expressed about conversation in a cocktail like setting. How to start a conversation and how to end one. 

TESSA VELAZQUEZ: Ooh.

ILANA GILOVICH: If you feel that it's so open-ended, and you imagine that you're getting quote, unquote stuck talking to someone, either you want to leave in a graceful way, you're maybe wondering if they wanna leave and they don't have an out. And what I love about what you're saying, that every course comes out. Every 30 minutes or an hour or so, and it's a deeply participatory act where everyone needs to come together and eat on this one surface.

It seems like that's a very organic way to potentially move out of a conversation and and move into a new conversational partner. 

TESSA VELAZQUEZ: Exactly. That's so true. So I have witnessed that and I felt that myself, even if I have like something to do, I have to go cook. Even me and it's my, my friends, like I kind of wanna get outta this conversation.

Like I need to go put something in the oven. That's the other thing about being a host, like I actually do that sometimes, or like I [00:13:00] really do have to go put something in the oven, but it's kind of a nice break and so I hope Yeah, it gives people that permission if you need to, you know, not just negatively get out of a conversation, but you just excited to talk about someone else.

Yeah. It's like, okay, the fish is out like. Talk to you later. I'm gonna go see someone else. So, yeah, exactly. It does promote that. That's such an interesting observation. 

ILANA GILOVICH: A clear theme is emerging here. Great conversations are, yes, spontaneous, but they often arise in environments that are consciously and meticulously designed for a leading expert on conversational design.

I interviewed Fred Dust, a superlative, conversationalist, and designer. Fred is the founder of the consulting and design firm, Dust & Co., as well as the author of Making Conversation the Seven Essential Elements of Meaningful Conversation. During his time as a global managing partner at the internationally acclaimed design firm, ideo Fred developed what's called Creative Tensions, a format for collective conversation expressed in movement [00:14:00] wherein participants reveal where they stand on an issue by where they stand in the room.

I can't wait for you to hear this interview. Fred is a phenomenal conversationalist for many reasons, one of which is he allows his innate creativity to suffuse his thinking, speaking and interpersonal relating and conversation. You'll hear how nimble he is at drawing connections between ideas and how game he is to perceive all conversational elements as inherently linked.

Because you talk a lot about design and space. I would love to inaugurate our conversation by talking about the space we're in and how that might influence this conversation that we're about to have. So where are you? 

FRED DUST: Uh, so I am in, um, we live in a 200 year old farm, upstate New York. And, um, so I'm in a office that is beamed and is like, it can look no different than it actually is.

It's like a, it's, it's just a, it's, it's. 200 years old and kind of a, um, [00:15:00] and I have to say it's been where I've been since the pandemic, you know, most of my work up Wow. Up until would've been out in the world thinking about space and the way it impacts design. But, um, it's fascinating how quite comforting it has been to have been in this same space for really the, the period of time that we have been in.

Surprising also how given the fact. We often think that like Zoom space doesn't matter as much how often people respond to the space I'm in. Get a sense of kind of what the conversation is based on on that. Yeah. It actually does matter. What about you? 

ILANA GILOVICH: I'm in my home. I am in front of my, my bookshelves, which my two favorite things, books and plants.

And feeling them together feels really wonderful. Um, but you're right, this is, I'm at my dining room table, so there are a lot of wonderful conversations that take place here, but I'm also used to sitting in this particular seat for Zoom conversations, so I've had a lot of those there. And ideally. [00:16:00] If we weren't worried about the mic picking up, I would want to have this interview over a breakfast spot.

Because one of the things you say in the book that I think is so fabulous is the idea that breakfast places, if you look around, the best conversations are happening there. 

FRED DUST: It's true. It really is true. It's funny because, uh, um, I, the way I got to understand and know New York well is like for the first five years I was there, I would have breakfast with somebody four days a week, like in a.

You know, it's like there's so much about breakfast, which is that it's like, it's so simple. It requires, mm. So little overthought. It's also pretty time bound. Like you're not gonna have a four hour breakfast, you know, during week. Um, which kind of releases some of the stress and energy around it, but it's also just, we know, um, physically it's like the best time of the day for us to be having conversations.

You know, it's like we're, our minds are more expansive or thinking is more expansive. Our bodies feel different. It's just, it's the, it's a really lovely, lovely time to be meeting and talking. 

ILANA GILOVICH: I [00:17:00] think there's something. So whimsical breakfast is my favorite meal of the day. There's something so inherently whimsical about it in the way that people can mix sweet and savory with abandoned, and there's lots of options for people.

But I also love what you talked about in terms of our own biology that many times meetings are scheduled for 2:00 PM 4:00 PM and, and that that's the worst time of the day. That's siesta time. And that's the idea that if I have a meeting, then I'm pounding a coffee. Right? But why do we do that? 

FRED DUST: It's so funny.

I was at a, I was running a board meeting or a part of a board meeting last week where they had run late up until my session. And so it meant that they were actually, they put all of their key decisions at a six o'clock slot in the evening. And, um, I, I left and I was like, you're about to make your budget decisions at the very worst moment you've all been.

In a room for, you know, nine hours and now you are gonna be sitting and going through this really hard conversation at the time that you're the most grumpy. Um, it just, it doesn't make any [00:18:00] sense. I mean, you know, it is really funny, IANA, that we, we don't pay attention to time and what we know and what we feel about our bodies and the ways that actually affects, the ways we engage with each other.

It's like it's one of the most critical components of how we engage, and yet we. We consider that like light or trivial stuff and it's really not. It's really significant, so, yeah. 

ILANA GILOVICH: Yeah. And a lot of, I, I'm so excited to dive into the, to the meat of the book, but one of the things you talk about initially is all parties committing to the concept of having a conversation.

And obviously we did that here 'cause we scheduled this time to speak to each other, but. I think there is often a lack of awareness or consciousness of like, what are the conditions around having this conversation and are all parties committed to it? And if I think I brought thought to the idea of, I.

Having a budgeting conversation at 6:00 PM If I took even one moment to scrutinize that, I'd go, I've not committed to this. I think it would be better to do it at a breakfast 

FRED DUST: I think that's totally right. [00:19:00] Well, it's funny 'cause then when I think about like committing to a conversation, one of the things I write about is like, um, setting the table for the conversation you want to have, which is kind of what we've just talked about, right?

Yeah. Which is like establishing the place that you want to have the conversation, but you're right. And the other aspect is. Often our conversations, we establish principles, like things we want people to kind of hold to while they're in conversation. Yeah. Again, really hard to do when you're like hungry and angry and you know, it's like, it's like you, you, you can hold you, you can't hold lightly enough, um, uh, things to actually kind of just hold principles.

Um, so, so yeah, there's, there's a lot, a lot in time of day and, and when we do things, for sure. 

ILANA GILOVICH: In Fred's book he writes, approaching dialogue as a designer means that you treat dialogue as something that you create, something that you design, not something that you facilitate. It's tremendously liberating.

There are new possibilities. If you can begin to think about how you influence the structure and feel of a conversation by design rather [00:20:00] than by pure force of will. It relies not on your interpersonal skills, but a different skillset. The ability to spot opportunity and design for it in order to shape outcome and impact.

FRED DUST: Life is full of remarkable props to help us unlock the most amazing conversations and what shame if we end up having it located around a desk. A table. Table. You know, a, a boardroom table, a podium, a classroom seat. I mean, these are like the least imaginative ways for us to imagine, for us to have the conversations that might matter the most in our lives.

ILANA GILOVICH: Fred also likes to employ design thinking within the structure of conversation. In his book, he describes what he considers the most effectively designed form of a story called an illumination. According to Fred Illumination, quote, don't recount every moment of an event in chronological detail. Instead, they are concise, [00:21:00] compressed, and highly concentrated narratives that capture the essence of a memory or an experience.

A story needs to end and an illumination ends when you discover the insight, not when you finish something. End quote, Fred advises conversationalists to find the truly revelatory piece of your story and stop your story there. 

FRED DUST: I go to this realization that had to do with like the best storyteller in my life, who's my great-grandmother, and like the stories she would, which were very short, you know, 32nd stories.

Literally on the back porch, um, swing like in the evening, every night, often picking up a story, picking up from the night before again, no, no more than 30 seconds. And I realized so much in what she did, which were kind of, was like the perfect com components of a, of a, of a, of a remarkable illumination.

And the reason I call an illumination is that. You expect to a story, you expect it [00:22:00] to kind of like tell you a little bit like, and this is kind of how it all worked out a little bit. Mm-hmm. And illumination to your point, works best because it doesn't give you the, well, what happened next? It just gives you the pervading feeling and the emotion.

How do you create stories that are gonna be catchy so people are like, I remember this, I wanna buy into this. I believe it. And we started to really get good at cutting stories so that they were like, just the moment where you get the realization and everything else is the. Then you wanna see what happens to go look at what the design work does.

ILANA GILOVICH: For some strange reason, I've been so preoccupied by death and have been writing a lot about it lately. And the reason that I love the concept of illumination in lieu of story is because we don't often get a denouement. We don't often get a resolution. Nothing becomes a tidy conclusion. And so the idea, and it's like it's.

Making me emotional, actually thinking about it like the, the spiritual arc of our lives. Being one of illumination rather than complete story is so [00:23:00] beautiful because it's like, was there a revelation in there? Was there a high point at which you felt alive and that you learned? And it doesn't necessarily mean that all the plot points in your life resolve, but did, did, was there a swell?

And to me that, that's so reassuring in a way. 

FRED DUST: I just wanna build on what you're saying. It's like, I think what's interesting, I, I'm a, I'm an avid journaler, um, like I, I, I write on a journal like multiple journals every day. And it's like a, um, you struck me from, because I was realizing it's like sometimes what's so unsatisfying about that is that it's like there is no arc right there.

There is no, there is no end. There isn't like, oh, I had this triumphant moment and then the evening was triumphant as well. I like, oh, that triumphant moment and like the evening really sucked. It doesn't all add up to being like, and then it all works or doesn't work. And so, yeah, it, it's, it's something that you kind of struck me with, which is like thinking about your day in like terms of little illuminations is actually kind of more, um, frankly, uh, [00:24:00] helpful way perhaps of understanding the way to parse our time or parse our learnings or parse our thinking.

Um, it's so counter, uh, to, to what we want, especially when we're thinking if you're thinking about death, like in the arc of a life. I know that you've done, um, work with sleep No More and, and understand like, and like if you think about even pieces like that where it's like all it is is small illuminations that if you're lucky, if you understand it enough or over, over time, you get to map it together.

And what I, what I actually have always loved about that show is how I. You can only see it in pieces. And so it's only in the collective conversation that happens afterwards that you might begin to map out what the overall meaning is, which again is an interesting reflection on conversation in our lives.

You know, it's like we only see, and so it's only when we collectively can map, but we've seen that we get to sort of perhaps make sense of, of what, what we're grappling with. The only work that. We need to be, I mean, not really. We need to do other things, [00:25:00] but it is sort of the work of our lives is to kind of hold these conversations and find the uplift and understand what made it lift and, and what did we learn from that.

Um, and, and what do we take forward into the, into the, the next day From that, that moment. 

ILANA GILOVICH: Before we conclude, I would love to know if there's anything you would wanna share with listeners. I hope that they all go out and buy your book and read it and note it as obsessively as I did. But is there anything in this moment that you wanna share about the kinds of conversations that we could be having any tips for?

Like really thinking about how to stage these beautiful, transformative conversations? 

FRED DUST: One thing that like I feel like I have to remind organizations that I work with or people that I work with, is that it's like. Because they'll go through these kind of cathartic conversations. Um, in, as part of the process that, that I'll work with them through is that they're like, we did it.

And I'm sort of like, you did it once. And the problem [00:26:00] is that it's like, it's a lot of practice. Um, and I think it's sort of. Hard to remember that actually, in fact, you do have to practice and that you do have to practice in different ways. And you do have to like, you know, in this case we were working with, in, with tensions and it's like practice using tensions and understand kind of like how, how that plays out.

And so that's one thing, um, that I would just sort of say to your listeners is like. It's wonderful when it happens once. It's, um, it's laborious for it to happen all the time, but the work is really worthwhile work. And so it's like, it's like do practice. And then the other thing that I would say is that I think is a little active, I I call it kind of like everyday bravery maybe in, in my book is, um, is, um, getting good at starting to ask for the kinds of conversations you want to have, recognizing when you're in a conversation that might be.

Alongside of a conversation that you wanna have or, or [00:27:00] near one, or might be in the kind of tone of a conversation you wanna have or not in a tone. Like, it's like getting good at being like, wait a second, um, this is the kind of conversation I wanna have. It doesn't mean you get to have that conversation.

Yeah. But it's like, I think that we as people could get better at identifying the conversations that we feel like we want to be having or can be having, only because if we all do it, we're all gonna get to a better place where we can understand the conversations we're needing to have. And so, yeah. Many of us are not taught to ask for the conversations we want to have.

A lot in the book is about scripts and how we fall into these scripts where certain things happen over and over again, and we need to start to recognize when those scripts happen. Mm-Hmm. And start to say, wait, I don't need this. I need this kind of conversation. Again, recognizing you may not always get it or you won't.

99% of the time you won't get it. But the work is to practice asking for the conversations you want to have, I guess. 

ILANA GILOVICH: I love that and it feels so beautifully meta in the idea that can, can the act of creating a conversation itself be a conversation? [00:28:00] Can it be something that ra, rather than being scripted, consciously or unconsciously, can it be something that is reimagined?

I.

Fred reminds us that conversation truly is an art form. We can increase our chances of experiencing the kind of conversation we most enjoy by applying an artistic designer's mindset to our conversational environments. So before your next dialogue, discover your own hopes for how that conversation might go.

And then try to design a conversational setting best suited for it, A walk in a park, a candle at dinner, a game night, or a cozy breakfast spot with a light hum of background noise. On the next episode, let's dive into the meat of conversation.

Liftoff was created and directed by Ilana Gilovich and produced by Greg Hanson. The featured guests on this episode were Alejandro Rodriguez, Tom Gilovich, Tessa Velazquez, and Fred [00:29:00] Dust. If you like liftoff, please share it with your friends and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, so the power of potent and playful conversation can continue.