LIFTOFF: The Art & Science of Conversation

4. WHAT Part I: From Small Talk to Tall Talk

• Ilana Gilovich • Season 1 • Episode 4

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LIFTOFF: The Art & Science of Conversation
Episode 4

In Episode 4, host Ilana Gilovich learns about the conversational pyramid and contemplates the optimal level of depth in conversation.

Featured Guests:

Mentioned Morsels:

Transcripts for all LIFTOFF episodes are available on Buzzsprout.

ILANA GILOVICH: [00:00:00] On the last episodes of Liftoff, we pursued the who and where of artful conversation. Now we're launching a two episode deep dive into the what of conversation to explore the core elements of dynamic dialogue. In this first what episode, we'll explore the merits of what is known as the conversational pyramid.

When I ask people about their apprehensions in conversation, many express confusion or anxiety about how deep to go, as in when to keep things light and when to court deeper emotional intimacy. As you'll hear in this episode, it turns out that people are keen to go deeper, more often than you'd think, but a source of great relief is this, all stages of the conversational pyramid are appropriate and useful at different times.

To learn about conversational range, I spoke with Alison Wood Brooks, a behavioral expert who taught an award-winning course at Harvard Business School called Talk How to Talk Gooder in Business and in Life. Alison was [00:01:00] named a Best 40 under 40 business school professor and her first book Talk, the Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves will be released in early 2025.

ALISON WOOD BROOKS: I don't mind small talk. I don't know about you. I don't mind that. I kind of love it. I've always, I've always thought of it as this like necessary ritual. We have to do it. And the point of it isn't to like talk about the weather or like hear how their weekend was. It's like a treasure hunt to find something better.

Mm-Hmm. So that once you find it, then you can get to that fizzier more exciting place. Yes. And go there. It's like a search. It's a search. It has a search function. Um, what I learned by teaching this course at Harvard about conversation is there are a lot of people out there that really dread small talk.

Yes. A lot. Like it's all they do and they hate it and they don't wanna do it. I think the mistake that they're making is that they stay on those sort of shallow [00:02:00] myth topics. Yes. For too, for too long they get stuck. So we talk about this pyramid at the base of the pyramid. These are sort of small talk topics.

These are things that anybody can talk about with anybody. How was your weekend? Um, it's warm outside today. Where are you in the world? Um, you know, what are you excited about lately? You could ask those questions to anybody. So you're at the bottom of the pyramid. You can't avoid the bottom of the pyramid, right?

You have to start somewhere, and those questions work well for all people. The, the key is as soon as someone says something like interesting or fizzy or like in, you feel curious about, or they seem excited about, you have to move up the pyramid. So you, the middle part of the pyramid are these sort of slightly more tailored, more personalized topics.

That only you two can talk about. Um, not, not only you two can talk about, but that are personalized to the people involved in the conversation. Yes. And then at the very [00:03:00] peak of the pyramid is this very unique shared reality that you have together. So let's say that you've been in a relationship for a really long time with your sister.

There are these things, there are so many little experiences and memories and topics that only the two of you could talk about in a certain way. Yes. And it might involve. Calling back to experiences that you've had from the past, or, uh, people that you both know, or a problem that one of you is struggling with, and the other one is uniquely positioned to help with.

So where the point about cadence comes in is knowing that we are constantly climbing up and down this pyramid anytime we're talking to anybody. Um, even though small talk lives at the bottom, and usually that's where we start our conversations, you're probably gonna like circle back to the bottom at some point when you need to switch to a new topic, right?

Yes. Like you're gonna talk about one thing the whole time, and so as soon as something starts to feel boring or like you've just like. Gotten all the juice outta that orange, like you might need [00:04:00] to come back down the pyramid and start over and then find a new topic, dive deep, and then climb up the pyramid again.

ILANA GILOVICH: All altitudes of the conversational pyramid are welcome and useful. However, studies show that emotional depth serves as a consistent heartbeat and the conversations we enjoy most. I chatted with Amit Kumar, an assistant professor of marketing and Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin. Amit's Research focuses on the scientific study of happiness and has been featured in numerous popular media outlets as well as respected scholarly publications.

Amit, along with psychologist Nick Epley, who will hear from later in the series, has studied conversation in depth and urges us to go deeper than we might otherwise in conversation. 

AMIT KUMAR: We have participants kind of report of how they felt after really having a deep conversation. That's the beauty of running, um, experiments.

You can randomly assign people to like, do the things that they might not [00:05:00] naturally do, uh, and then see how they feel when, uh, when, when they do them. Um. And so what we find is that these deeper, more meaningful, more intimate conversations feel less awkward than we, uh, think they will. And they actually tend to lead to stronger bonds, to more liking, um, and to greater sort of happiness and enjoyment than we.

Anticipate, um, it's kind of striking how much people overestimate how awkward and uncomfortable these interactions are gonna be. Uh, and they underestimate how connected they'll feel to someone when they, um, engage in these conversations. 

ILANA GILOVICH: Amit expresses a positive outlook on the potential range available to us as conversationalists.

AMIT KUMAR: One of the ways that I think about this is like, basically everyone that you're. Close to, uh, that isn't like a blood relative or something like that, was sort of a stranger at [00:06:00] some point, right? And so the question is how did you become close to them? And it's by having these more meaningful interactions.

And so if you wanna turn your strangers into friends, it's probably a good idea to talk about some of these, um, uh, more meaningful, uh, topics. 

ILANA GILOVICH: When seeking a Peerless conversationalist capable of exhibiting a great range, I chatted with David Pizarro from episode two, Cornell Psychology Professor and Co-host of the Very Bad Wizards podcast.

DAVID PIZARRO: The podcast that I do with, uh, Tamler Summers, who's a philosopher, I. That we've been doing for 10 years. We've recorded so many hours and hours and hours and hours of conversation that I have. Kind of like a natural experiment there. Yeah. Right. Where like I'm controlling, like I'm keeping my conversation partner constant.

Right? It's with him all the time. Um, and then you have conversations that sometimes go on for two, two and a half, three hours [00:07:00] that, um, that I feel energized at the end, or ones in which I feel drained. I. And for me, there is this way in which when we talk about a work of art where you get, this is gonna sound new age, you get like on the same, you're vibing in the same way.

You're on the same page about something and everything that, that I say he'll build on, right. And what he says I'll build on. And the insights of two people talking about something. Are are greater than just the sum of the insights he would have alone. And I would have, yes. 'cause we take each other on this sort of journey and by the end we've discovered things that we didn't know we had discovered and, and we're in this, um, symbiotic kind of like back and forth where at the end I'm just like, actually have more energy, [00:08:00] which is rare.

ILANA GILOVICH: It is a truth. Universally acknowledged that David is one of the most charismatic people on the planet. You'll hear in our conversation how humble and solicitous he is of others. Two things to notice throughout our exchange. David often says his conversational partner's name, which is always an affirming practice.

He also dramatizes the experience of revelation and conversation. Making remarks like you're making me think about which underscores the notion of conversation as a space for co-creation. He's a whip smart human, and yet for some alarming reason, he often defers to me throughout our dialogue. He's also naturally curious, an essential characteristic of great conversationalists.

DAVID PIZARRO: To me, one of the things that I think has been the, the best in terms of my ability to talk to other people has nothing to do with anything I've ever tried or like effortfully, like made some conscious attempt at like being [00:09:00] good at, it's just curiosity about other people and what they have to say. Hmm.

Like I find that I'm just. Fascinated by other people. And if I'm, I don't know, like it's not, I'm not striking up conversations in on airplanes, like I'm not that kind of person. Right. Um, who does that all the time, but when I do, I. I find, like I just have question after question about like what they do, what interests them.

Like if somebody Mm-Hmm. If somebody tells me that they, I don't know, they just, they, they study insects for a living. Like, I'm like, really? Like I just want to hear, uh, about that. And it's again, just a genuine fascination. I feel like you have a strike against you if you don't have that, if you genuinely don't care about what other people have to say, yeah, then it, it [00:10:00] probably is the case that you're having to force yourself to listen rather than just wait to speak.

Um, yeah. And yeah, and, and because I think it just comes out like I really, I rarely want to talk about myself. Like I'd much rather hear somebody else tell me about. So I would rather spend the time that we're talking, like, I haven't caught up with you in so long.

Like I wanna know all about what you've been studying like, but yeah. 

ILANA GILOVICH: David and I chatted about the optimal levels of depth and conversation. In this excerpt, you'll hear David ponder whether his resistance to going deep in conversation is a defense mechanism, which ironically is a bid for deeper emotional intimacy.

Listening back, I wish I'd seized that opportunity to ask him more about his hesitation to reveal those depths. Because I believe it would've led somewhere conversationally juicy. But that's what this podcast is about, exhibiting the promise and the pitfalls of meaningful conversation, both through my guests conversational prowess and my own communicative clumsiness.[00:11:00] 

DAVID PIZARRO: What do you think is the right level of depth to get to in a conversation? Right, you know, do, when do you like ask? The when do you just try to get below the surface? Like some people I can tell are bored by surface conversations, right? Or whatever. They define a surface conversation. So they want to get to like, what are your hopes and fears?

Right? And I find, I find that like I'm actually a very less, I sound like I'm feel like of my, like I feel like I'm great at all this stuff. I actually shut down very quickly, right? When I feel like people are, are getting. To a spot that I like, find, like is too personal, too intimate. Mm-Hmm. Um, I'm, I just kind of turn off at like, I, I don't know what it is.

I, I don't think it's a good trait. I just sort of like, am like, eh, let's talk about, let's talk about like what you did [00:12:00] yesterday. 

ILANA GILOVICH: And I think, do you, do you feel like there are certain people that you would be willing or even enjoy going there with, but the majority of people you wouldn't? Or in any context it feels like, Ugh, I don't wanna go there.

DAVID PIZARRO: It's funny because I've been accused of before, of, um, being a bit hard to get to know. I think what they meant by this was that. Because I'm so open about so much. I think they have the, the sense that I'm being, uh, very open about my personal life.

Mm-Hmm. But then they realize I haven't actually, and so there is something about somebody who's willing to say like crazy things like, you know, make, make like crazy jokes about all sorts of things that people wouldn't joke about or, um, and, but that is not. You know, like if you listen to my podcast, you know a whole lot about my cohosts family, but you probably wouldn't learn very much about me [00:13:00] personally at all.

So you get the sense maybe that you know me, but you don't really, and I, and I, that makes me a bit sad because I, it's just like a, a particular area that I don't, don't want other. People, unless you're close to me, I just don't want to bring people into that, um, inner circle or whatever. Yeah, yeah, 

ILANA GILOVICH: yeah.

I've heard people, uh, a ffr, a dear friend of mine, he says, I'm really good at getting to 80% with people. I'm really hard at getting the global last 20 is very difficult for me, and that makes so much sense. 

DAVID PIZARRO: Yeah. Um. I think it's a defense mechanism on my part. Like I don't, um, maybe or may, maybe it's that I don't find, I think also deeply, I don't find any of that stuff about me that interesting.

Right. But you know, you, you make me think that that, uh, one of the things then that's valuable about the curiosity part is, is [00:14:00] that. If I'm genuinely curious about somebody and I, and I'm talking to them long enough, you're giving yourself a shot to find common ground even in somebody who you may. Never think there was some commonality.

And I think it will happen in conversation where with a complete stranger, where after a while they say something, I'm like, oh my god. You know? Yeah, totally. Yeah. 

ILANA GILOVICH: Yeah. I love it. It makes me think of that. Um, in 1984, George Orwell says the best books are ones that tell you what you already know, huh? 

DAVID PIZARRO: Yeah.

ILANA GILOVICH: And I feel that there's something about a good line of poetry where you're like, yes, that thing, thank you for putting words to the thing I already knew, or like, thank you for creating this, this music that puts, puts an experience on an experience I've had, but that I couldn't articulate. And like there, there is some element of recognition, kind of like you said, common humanity.

You may not have a lot in common with that person, but you are a being on this earth. Yeah. [00:15:00] I love the idea that a conversation like a story is a pretty generous and elastic medium in that it can, it can stretch and accommodate whoever happens along, and there's room for everyone in there. 

DAVID PIZARRO: Yeah. Yeah, it makes me sad for all the conversations that didn't happen because they got, like, they got thwarted by some early source of friction or a bad, you know, some, some comment that shut it down and that could have happened.

You could have had this moment of humanity between two people. 

ILANA GILOVICH: The etymology of the word conversation stems from the old French and Latin, literally meaning a kind of inhabiting dwelling within keeping company with. Throughout our dialogue, David takes up residence within an idea and explores its many nooks and crannies, inviting his conversational partner to do the same.

In this episode, we learned that each step in the [00:16:00] conversational pyramid has a meaningful role to play in communication. However, we rarely regret going deeper when we take conversational risks with our partners. In your next conversation, consider asking your partner a slightly deeper question than you otherwise would or perhaps reveal something vulnerable yourself.

You may be surprised where such a revelation takes you both.

Liftoff was created and directed by Ilana Gilovich and produced by Greg Hanson. The featured guests on this episode were Alison Wood Brooks, Amit Kumar, and David Pizarro. If you like liftoff, please share it with your friends and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, so the power of potent and playful conversation can continue.