LIFTOFF: The Art & Science of Conversation

5. WHAT Part II: We Can Laugh About This

• Ilana Gilovich • Season 1 • Episode 5

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LIFTOFF: The Art & Science of Conversation
Episode 5

In Episode 5, host Ilana Gilovich learns how humor informs conversation: by putting people at ease or by putting them on edge.

Featured Guests:

Mentioned Morsels:

Transcripts for all LIFTOFF episodes are available on Buzzsprout.

ILANA GILOVICH: [00:00:00] In this episode of Liftoff, we continue our two episode exploration of the what in conversation key components that make conversations sizzle. When I envision what I mean by conversational liftoff, I picture a group of people talking and laughing excitedly, building on one another's remarks, and collectively feeling the giddiness of the exchange.

But that ideal instance of shared laughter can be tricky to achieve. How can we encourage levity and conversation without making it feel contrived? In this episode, we explore when humor can help a conversation, and when humor can derail great conversation. Most importantly, we'll learn how humor it. Self can be used as a kind of diagnostic mechanism to determine what's happening inside the person across from you.

I spoke with Alison Wood Brooks, the conversational expert from episode four about the importance of levity and conversation. 

ALISON WOOD BROOKS: For me, laughter is so, um. [00:01:00] It's such a sign of trust and connection and joy and surprise. So there's sort of like learning built in there a lot too. Yes. Um, for me, I think a conversation devoid of laughter is, feels like a, like something went wrong.

Um, if you wow, don't feel safe enough to laugh, then we need to do better next time. I think that's how I feel. 

ILANA GILOVICH: How do you think about the optimal amount of humor in a conversation? 

ALISON WOOD BROOKS: Totally. There's so many ways for humor to go wrong, right? It's very risky, right? It can fail by not being funny. Right. Being too benign.

ILANA GILOVICH: Yeah. 

ALISON WOOD BROOKS: Fail by being too aggressive or too much of a violation, and that's when we get into like, cancel world. Um, it can also fail if it's just like not. Tailored for your partner in a way that's like they find amusing. Right? Um, and, and so it, there's just a [00:02:00] lot of directions for humor to fail. I think something that my research on levity and conversation has highlighted that can be very comforting to people is like, when we think of funny people in conversation, I think who we imagine are like comedians or like the funniest people in our lives.

Hmm. And trying to emulate that is quite misguided. Certainly you don't need to be like a standup comedian to make other people feel happy and, or, and laugh. Yeah. Uh, in conversation, in fact, standup comedy, that's like one way public speaking is, is not at all how conversation works, right? Hmm. Conversation is quick, back and forth.

Sometimes there are little opportunities for you to, um, bring humor or levity because of the sort of back and forth, uh, nature of it. Yeah. Um, so thinking about, I'm gonna have these hilarious stories to tell, or like these planned jokes or like these funny, Hey, everybody look at me. Let me tell [00:03:00] my like, funny jokes is like, not, doesn't work.

And almost always people aren't gonna find that particularly enjoyable to engage with. So letting go of trying to be a comedian is, is, is I think, quite important. And then what I've learned from studying this, there was this amazing, um, psychologist, um, named John Provin, who I. Had a team of RAs who went all over, uh, he was at the University of Maryland, so he, they went all over Baltimore and they were studying real conversations between people, like on sidewalks and in little grocery stores and in the library.

And they were writing down like what happened in the conversation that made people laugh. So much of the time, 70% of the time it was not humor. It's something else. It's like know something that's like surprising or people are laughing to be polite and like something awkward happened and Right. So it's not always like these [00:04:00] killer, amazing jokes that are eliciting laughter and conversation.

It's more like we're taking turns talking. Listening and these weird, funny things are, are gonna happen. And do you point them out? Do you sort of live on the precipice of a smile? Are you ready to enjoy them? Mm-Hmm. And help your partner enjoy them? Or are you sort of coming with this mindset of seriousness?

So I think, I think levity is almost more of a, a, a mindset and finding those sort of quick moments of opportunity rather than, Hey, I'm gonna be like right eating with all my jokes, you know? 

ILANA GILOVICH: When considering the artful application of levity, I knew I had to consult Max Stossel, an award-winning poet, filmmaker, and speaker named by Forbes as one of the best storytellers of the year.

Max's poetry is an astonishing fusion of profundity and playfulness. In fact, he often incorporates humor into his existential explorations as a way of taking the playful seriously and the serious playfully [00:05:00] 

MAX STOSSEL: and performances and poetry performances. There is, uh, I find as a listener to certain amounts of poetry that it's hard for me to stay fully focused throughout a message when it's really intense or really serious all the way through for a long time.

And so I like to add jokes or lightness at the places where if I were in the audience, I might start zoning out or like just being too intense for my own system. And so I really like also sometimes, especially in a very deep moment. Just totally branching off into something funny or something that gets laughter, which is like also like a nice system reset, um, to keep focus.

But the having laughs at the right time feels very important to helping people listen all the way through a message. 

ILANA GILOVICH: Do you think you do that in conversation subconsciously? Like when it's getting quite heavy, would you instead of joke, just to let some air out of the tire? 

MAX STOSSEL: Totally. And some of that is also like, I think a [00:06:00] result of my own.

Anxiety of like liking a conversation to feel a certain way. And if I sense that it's starting to feel at a sense of heaviness, then really enjoying adding levity to it. And I also, I happen to believe and see I. Beauty and everything and like levity and everything and this great cosmic joke that is existence.

So I also do enjoy like in really dark like intense places. Even like, okay, like let's like hey, let me show you that we can laugh about this too. And it doesn't diminish what's here or the seriousness of it at all. And like also, this is funny, like let's laugh and be present with this at the same time.

ILANA GILOVICH: In his reflection, max illuminates how humor intersects with anxiety and tension, as well as beauty, a conversational crossroads. I was eager to explore. Enter Will Boyajian, an actor, singer, musician, and improvisational comedian. Will and I met performing in the off-Broadway show. Sleep No More, and to this day, I have difficulty maintaining my professional composure whenever Will decides to [00:07:00] unleash his comic genius on the room.

I asked Will if I could interview him for this podcast to discuss both his philosophy on levity and his experiences in conversation. As a neurodivergent person, 

WILL BOYAJIAN: when you're someone who is acutely and constantly aware that you might be ruffling feathers around you, which is really common with the ADD person there is like when you're held together with scotch tape.

Memes, it's, you are constantly aware of the mechanics of conversation because you have this fear that like you will become undone in public. You're barely held together 

ILANA GILOVICH: to consider how a wide range of minds receives conversation is to address a critical lacuna. And the current research on conversation.

In fact, Will's, ADD contributed a refreshing sense of levity and authenticity to our dialogue. 

WILL BOYAJIAN: But uh, it's. This whole thing of like, see, [00:08:00] I, I literally just went on a tangent. What was the question? 

ILANA GILOVICH: It turned out that Will had very particular opinions about levity in conversation. 

WILL BOYAJIAN: That's the, that's, I've always said there's two approaches to like, and I, I think for this conversation we're talking about levity in conversation and not like, yeah.

Standup or performative comedy, but like, and that's another conversation. 'cause that's the, the thing we hate is performative com comedy in a. Social situation. 

But I think I've always said if there's like two approaches to levity and conversation and you can be like a sniper with an A, like a sniper and you're waiting for that and you're taking an information, you're observing and then you go, here it is, boom.

And you hit him with that, with a beautifully constructed joke that calls back what we've been talking about and it has a reveal to it. 

Magical. Flip of what you thought was gonna happen. Or you can be like a drunk henchman with an ak you can just be like, I hope one of these hits, which is my approach.

Um, that's like kind of how I do it. Um, 

ILANA GILOVICH: [00:09:00] and how does it go for you? Does it feel successful? 

WILL BOYAJIAN: Yeah. Well, I'm, I have really good aim. Um, I'm really good. 

ILANA GILOVICH: What do you think regular conversation is? 

WILL BOYAJIAN: I don't think that it can be a thing. I don't think there's any such thing as like, so like when I go into my bo, like my first thought with just now is like, I go into my bodega and I don't go like, Hey boys, I, I walk in and I do, and I would say, oh, that's regular conversation, but no, I'm putting on.

A thing. I'm acting a little tougher than I am in my bodega. I'm acting maybe a little more blue collar in my bodega. I go my bodega, I'm much more blue collar. I'm like, oh, well work day man. Ugh, 11 o'clock at night, you know, how's it going another day, another dollar. I'll say shit like that. That's shit that'll come out, dude.

You know? Double worked at double. I'll say like, I worked at Double As if I was doing. Like I was like a nurse Labor. 14. Yeah. I've been laying bricks. My guy. No, I've been doing, it's not my double's not a real [00:10:00] double, but because that is your testing, you know, that's, that's the language I'm gonna use there.

Um, 

ILANA GILOVICH: what conversation is, is deeply contextually contingent on who and where you are. 

WILL BOYAJIAN: Oh, of course. Of course. 

ILANA GILOVICH: As you'll hear our conversation about levity evolved into a poignant discussion of mental health will identifies the ways in which humor can enhance human interaction, as well as the ways that humor can thwart earnest, authentic interaction.

I was sincerely entertained more than entertained, engrossed the entire time. In these first minutes, you'll hear an opening monologue from Will that I believe is worthy of a Broadway show. What are the kind of conversations that you seek out? Because they feel like an art form and they feel like flow. 

WILL BOYAJIAN: I love to.

So I'm very much from the school that like everything is, and this is gonna sound so pretentious, but like everything is everything, everything. 'cause we're all from the, like we're all from the earth. Everything developed from everything around it. [00:11:00] There was always zeitgeist. It was always like what was going on in science was affecting what was going on in literature, what was affecting what was going on in music.

There's a framework of just how the natural world works when you pick any subject and we break down what that is, that to me is like, I could do that all day. Hmm. How, like if we start talking about soccer and we end up talking about like, I. The plight. A scene in Africa that is like, and then that's a conversation that can happen organically and without, like artifice.

You can get there, everything can be boiled down. Any type of like boiling down conversations. I love, I love, I love, love, love science. Um, and everything is like, everything eventually is physics at the end of the day. Mm-hmm. Um, and physics is, is eventually chemistry and then like the chemistry is biology, and then biology is life.

And then life is the animal kingdom. And then the animal kingdom is culture. And then culture is [00:12:00] language comes in and then language becomes like tribalism, and then tribalism becomes social structures. And social structures becomes. Like governments and then what politics is, and then like pseudo tribalism and then like art and culture become a thing because we have like a social culture and now you have art and now you have, I.

Sub genre like, like what subculture? And then you're like, oh fuck, everything's a subculture. And then you're like, oh, we're compartmentalizing stuff to make it easy to navigate this world. And then you're like, oh, it's hard to navigate. And then it's mental health. And then it's like, what's the whole point of all this?

And then you're like, oh, I'm just a meat protective layer for my jeans. Like that's like you can spend, you can spend the day. And it's weird that we don't spend the day because it's not like anyone's figured out what that is. Like, there's no one who's like, Hey, you wanna talk about something? He's like, no, I, I did it.

I got it all. I did it, figured it out. You know, it's like, uh, those are my favorite [00:13:00] conversations. I. 

ILANA GILOVICH: I love that. Will, I love that. Because it also feels, like you said, boil, boil down things to their element, but it doesn't feel reductive. It feels interdisciplinary and associative. And going back to what you said about having ADD, it almost feels like your ability to connect and to jump from topic to topic has a coherence in that framework that you described.

And so it's a way of, of finding the interconnectedness of things and insisting upon a connection. Between seemingly disparate topics. 

WILL BOYAJIAN: Yeah. And through that, I think the, the color on all of that is, so, while it may seem it's rough on the edges, it's, it's almost like that, uh, that like notion of like Wabi-sabi, that this, like, that you can, like the act of messiness and repair and rough edges is really beautiful.

And like that conversation that you could just have is like. How beautiful, [00:14:00] how beautiful to discuss the life works and utter devotion and fascination that hundreds of thousands of people have had. To take that and weave that all together into this, like, what is this? Like what is, what is this? 

Because like, like what, what is all of it? You know? It's like, and that's like, that's the, that's like the. Question. 

ILANA GILOVICH: It's the only conversation really, and we're just having offshoots of that same essential conversation. You like the journey just as much as you like the destination. So it almost would feel counterproductive to jump right in and say, what's this all about?

It's more about this meandering, deeply enriching journey of association. 

WILL BOYAJIAN: If I'm making new friends. If I'm making new friends, I want the journey. If I have old friends, I'll say, what, what season were we on? Oh, we're on season six. Cool. Let's go right to season six, episode five. That's where we left off. [00:15:00] 

ILANA GILOVICH: If, um, you, if for, for listeners of this podcast who want to introduce more levity and more dynamism into their conversations, what would you suggest?

What are things that you've learned in your long career as an improviser and as a, as a hysterical person? 

WILL BOYAJIAN: Um, see, because I don't know if I would want them to, I don't know if that's a good thing. Okay. If you're like, if you're cool, if you're cool with where you are right now in your conversation, that's awesome.

Because I'm not very comfortable with where I amm in conversation. Oh, I don't like the way I am. I also wish that I was not making as many jokes as, but it's, it's, it's almost like a tick for me. 

But I think it's, um. It is fun though. But, but, but then when you get into the volley match, try to vol, try to set other people up.

If you wanna really try to set them up for the slam dunk, you give 'em a little bump set joke, and [00:16:00] then you let them spike it down. They, they love it. 

ILANA GILOVICH: When you say you don't like yourself in conversation and you, you wish that you made fewer jokes, what do you think the optimal. Way of relating is in terms of how someone can, can inject levity into a conversation without feeling like they're taking up all the air in the room 

WILL BOYAJIAN: by letting jokes happen.

They happen. They, they just happen, and then we all find what just happened. Funny. That's, that's the perfect, pure, unadulterated form. Now you can. Now what you're doing is forcing it and now it comes down to how artfully are you forcing it and you can force it if you're really good. 

So like the one, this is gonna be the cockiest thing I've ever said.

Great. Let's get all, I talk way too much. I know that I do it. It's, it's what I'm most self-conscious [00:17:00] about. I'm thinking about it constantly. This is really embarrassing before I go into like. When you see me in the dressing room, when I leave my house, I have like a minute of reflection in the mirror where I'm like, okay, dude.

Chill. Just be chill. Go in and just be calm and listen like everyone else. Just like don't talk that much. Just like breathe. But then I like forget it. But if you're gonna talk a lot, which I do and I hate that I do, but I do, you better be like, if you're really funny, it's a little bit okay. Like if you're, if you're like really adding to the conversation, which I think I have a, I think I am comfortable saying that I do.

Um. But like, don't do that. Listen, you should listen. I should listen way more, but I don't, and it's too late for me, but it's not too late for you. Don't I ask 

ILANA GILOVICH: when you do that reflection, which is like deeply touching and makes me feel closer to you hearing that. If, [00:18:00] if you feel that you've quote unquote failed or you've talked too much and you, you leave the end of the evening feeling like, oh, I really should have listened, what is the regret there?

Are you aware of something that you missed out on or you're not even sure exactly what that is, but you just have a sense socially that you ought not to have talked so much? 

WILL BOYAJIAN: Well, both. Both simultaneously. The regret is that now conversation I thing I love so much didn't actually happen. 

There, there wasn't any organic flow because there was someone steering the ship and the way that they wanted so that they could do the stuff they wanted to talk about and maybe make you do a laugh, which is gonna be like a, you'd be like, ha, that's the regret socially. Oh no. Yeah. I also go like, oh, I was completely oblivious or apathetic to like the needs of other people and what kind of day they were having.

In favor of maybe making you laugh. So I feel good about me. That's what I mean. That's a big part of it. 

ILANA GILOVICH: Wow. 

WILL BOYAJIAN: I feel good about me 'cause you laughed. I'm good. Okay. Rest of [00:19:00] the world. Good luck. Is kind of what you're doing, 

ILANA GILOVICH: are there that you recall transcending that, that you can think of where you were really able to listen that felt I.

Felt expansive and, and nourishing for you? 

WILL BOYAJIAN: Oh, for sure. When I'm in a, when I'm in, when the group is, right, when I'm in like the, the carefully curated circle of friends that we all do, that's why your friends feel so good when you're all together, because it's, you don't have to, you're, you don't have to do any of these social safeguards.

You can just be as messy as you wanna be in reason with, you know, because you've assumed that your social circle is all. Compassionate, empathetic humans, you know? But you can like, you can let that go. That's what family is. They know you. They know you mean well, but you're trying your best and you're not.

You can be yourself. That's why we love family. That's why we love our close friends. But you put me in a work setting. Ugh. So like fulfilling. Yeah. Like when I'm medicated, I'm not medicated right now, so. Mm-hmm. Not like long [00:20:00] term, just like, 

ILANA GILOVICH: but that makes a big difference. You feel like in your ability to regularly 

WILL BOYAJIAN: end oh 150% 

ILANA GILOVICH: with your like friends or chosen family, you can cast off the tendency to speak more.

Um, because you can be completely yourself. You also feel that the tendency to speak more may alienate people. It's almost like you could cut out the middleman chill and not feel right and chill. I mean, I I know it's easier said than the be 

WILL BOYAJIAN: chill. No, no, no. I, I, I wish I was chiller. Yeah. My like, like I've said the sentence often be like, Hey guys, I also don't like what I'm doing right now.

Like, I also do not like that the volume at which I'm speaking. I we're equally frustrated with me right now. I'm just as frustrated as you are. Um, I too wish I could take a breath and chill out, but I'm [00:21:00] trying my best. 

ILANA GILOVICH: I'm, I'm trying my best. I think it would be hard to not endear someone to you with those words actually.

WILL BOYAJIAN: Wow, this, this, this podcast is gonna cause a whole, this is gonna be a whole day today. I can tell. I'm gonna be like, oh 

fuck did I did. In what way? Oh, I just know. 'cause these are things we all should be thinking about, but we probably aren't thinking about, 

ILANA GILOVICH: it's why I'm making this podcast. Oh 

WILL BOYAJIAN: no, it's great.

I mean, these are all, and there's no answers here. We can do this to be ad nauseum. You can get to the. What is conversation? Um, 'cause it's all signaling is really what it is. I mean, like, it's conversation in the sense of like, when you're meeting a new person, 

it's, you're sniffing each other's butts.

You're figuring out what is okay, um, what are my boundaries, what type of person are, and, and that can be done very quickly with a joke. Mm-Hmm. Um. That can be done very [00:22:00] quickly. I can say, are you, did you a, like this joke B, did you get this joke? Did you respond with a joke back? Oh, yes. To all three. We probably are in the same clade, you know?

ILANA GILOVICH: So you've, you've kind of delineated a several different types of humor. One is like information assessment. And two is a sense of clan ship or like-mindedness, which could be a sub genre of information assessment. And then also deflection. Yeah. And then comedy 

WILL BOYAJIAN: as a mechanism. Yeah, I think is for sure.

ILANA GILOVICH: And then a sense of reward, a sense of affirmation, 

WILL BOYAJIAN: which I would put into the same i'd i'd, I'd put those two. In the, as the me the mechanism of comedy Yeah. Can exist as a, um, or I guess the byproduct can exist as, as affirmation [00:23:00] or deflection. 

ILANA GILOVICH: I really appreciate. All the different layers of sediment that you've brought to this conversation about levity.

And one of the things that I've loved about talking to you over the past, I don't know, 90 minutes, is like you have shown me that a dialogue about levity doesn't always contain a lot of levity. It can, no, it can be very funny, but it, it very quickly excavates to these deeper layers of things that are, are both serious and painful and profound.

So I really appreciate all the. The dynamism and the authenticity from this conversation. Oh, thank 

WILL BOYAJIAN: you. I mean, I think this conversation by, by the virtue of having this conversation means like it won't be funny. In fact, I was so nervous for this. Hmm. Because 

I was like, is she gonna be like, Hey everybody, this is my podcast.

Will's very funny. Go do it up be. And I was like, oh. 'cause it won't be because I'm actually Yeah. And funny people tend not to be funny when you're by yourself or when you're in small one-on-ones because you're, we're talking now. Yeah. It's not time for [00:24:00] funny. Um, I had a great time.

This is the kind of conversation I enjoy and I could do this quite literally. I could do this shit all day 

work. 

And that I have a big brain. 

ILANA GILOVICH: Yeah, big. You have a big brain and you have a capacity to be vulnerable. Yeah, but I'm not a scientist. I'm glad you're not, because this is who you are and I like you. Levity contains so much information. It serves many diverse functions while executing its frenzied tap dance.

Fostering an awareness of an appreciation for levity allows us to notice these functions at work in real time, to detect when humor might be serving as a shield for emotional intimacy, or perhaps as a bid for interpersonal connection. Above all, levity underscores how conversation like all art forms can manifest as a divine form of play.

Playful doesn't always mean upbeat. In fact, one of play's linguistic roots stems from the proto West dramatic verb that roughly translates as to occupy [00:25:00] oneself about. In your next conversation, consider asking your conversational partner when they laugh and why and whether the answer is silly or substantive, you'll get to occupy yourselves together.

Liftoff was created and directed by Ilana Gilovich and produced by Greg Hanson. The featured guests on this episode were Alison Wood Brooks, Max Stossel and Will Boyajian. If you like liftoff, please share it with your friends and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, so the power of potent and playful conversation can continue.