8. WHY: Art Loves Mess

LIFTOFF: The Art & Science of Conversation
Episode 8

In Episode 8, host Ilana Gilovich muses on the courage and authenticity summoned by all captivating art... including conversation.

Featured Guests:

• Nicholas Epley: Professor of Behavior Science and Director of the Center for Decision Research at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business
• Amit Kumar: University of Texas at Austin assistant professor of Marketing and Psychology
• Mallory Gracenin: Actor, writer, consultant, and producer
• Andrew Horn: social entrepreneur, writer, speaker, executive life coach, and creator of Social Flow
• Max Stossel: Poet, Filmmaker, Speaker, and Founder of Social Awakening
• Francesca Harper: Artistic Director of Ailey II, Dancer, Choreographer, Singer, Producer

Transcripts for all LIFTOFF episodes are available on Buzzsprout.

Transcript

ILANA GILOVICH: [00:00:00] Throughout this series, we've explored the who, what, where, and how of conversation. In this episode of Liftoff, we penetrate the why of conversation. Why does meaningful conversation matter? Why should we strive for artful flowing conversation in our daily lives? As you'll hear in this episode, I believe the great conversation asks us to be courageous.

The result is that through conversation, we discover more about ourselves and others. We take risks, we uncover truth. In this episode, we'll learn about the benefits of making a mess and being silly, and how our own courage can inspire courage in others. After conducting numerous interviews about conversation, I discovered that part of being a great conversationalist is just showing up courageously for whatever the moment holds.

This finding is a reassuring one. We don't have to wield dazzling wit or dizzying intellect, or a wealth of obscure knowledge. We just have to be brave and be ourselves. I discussed [00:01:00] conversational authenticity with psychologist Nick Epley. Nick is a professor of behavioral science and the director of the Center for Decision Research at University of Chicago's Booth School of Business.

He studies social cognition, how thinking people think about other, thinking people to understand why smart people so routinely misunderstand each other. Nick is currently designing studies and writing a book about conversation, and he perceives conversation as a limitless sandbox that will give to you as much as you're willing to give to it.

NICK EPLEY: One of the key features of conversation that I think people really miss is that they're reciprocal. That they, they genuinely go back and that people tend to copy each other. That is. If you open up to another person, they tend to open up back to you. Um, if you say something interesting to another person, they'll tend to grab onto that and go somewhere interesting in return.

Mm-Hmm. And, and conversations and have this [00:02:00] back and forth quality, which means a couple of things. One is they build connection 'cause you're often going back and forth. And second, they often go to places you can't possibly imagine. Like, you know, you start a conversation with somebody, you don't, you don't know what experiences they've had.

You don't know, you don't know where they've been or what they've seen or what they've done or, or that they happen to know your best friend too, right? There's. There's so much there that you don't know. It's kind of hard to anticipate where a conversation's gonna go, but what people seem to think is that it's not often gonna go anywhere.

And that's what they just seem to, to kind of be wrong about. It often goes somewhere, somewhere, um, and often that's to a place of mutual interest because you're going back and forth. That's the way it works. The research also makes it clear that we've got a huge amount of agency, huge amount of agency over our social [00:03:00] lives.

Are, if you, if you don't like where a conversation is going, well change the topic. Yeah. About something else, right? Yeah. You're feeling kind of disconnected and lonely. Well say hello to somebody. Right. If you know, if, if you're doing nothing and wanna do something else, pass along a compliment to somebody.

I mean that you just have a, you have a huge amount of power to affect other people in positive ways, which then in turn can make a lot of those experiences more positive for you as long as you're willing. Start as long as you're willing to give it a try. And I think all of that, I think is an underestimation too, of just the power that we have to engage other people if we reach out and try.

ILANA GILOVICH: I spoke with psychologist Amit Kumar from episode four about our fears in conversation. Amit offered a helpful framework from the field of social psychology to illuminate how our skewed self-perception doesn't serve us. 

AMIT KUMAR: The basic [00:04:00] idea here. So sometimes there's a distinction made between and competence.

So is, um. Kind of like your, your sincerity, your pro-social intent. Like, are you doing something for the purpose of making someone else feel good, perhaps without any expectation of, um, uh, you know, expect you don't necessarily need to get something back in return. Um, that's kind of what warmth is.

Competence is more about how. Sort of effective you are how you know as the word implies, how competently you'll be perceived when you're agentic in this way. Your perspective kind of tends to focus less on warmth and more on perceived competence when you're considering your own behavior. So you are thinking about like.

How do I do this thing? Um, but uh, the person on the other end, a target is gonna be more focused on the warmth or pro-social intent that's conveyed by [00:05:00] the thing that you're saying or doing. Um, and so, you know, you might be thinking about things like I. Is this, you know, is this the right thing to say?

Mm-Hmm. Is this like, just, are these like just the right words to use to really express how I'm feeling? Is this what I should be saying to this particular person in this particular situation? Right. In this particular moment and time? Like those are the thoughts that go through our head when we're deciding whether to do something.

Mm-Hmm. The person on the other end has no idea what words you could have used. Instead, they're, they're thinking about, um, the fact that you said anything at all. I think a really fundamental point is that social interaction is better than no social interaction. So if the alternative is that like, ooh, this is gonna be weird, this is gonna be uncomfortable.

Maybe I shouldn't say anything right now that, um. You know, this is sometimes referred to when you're a [00:06:00] writer as like, perfect being the enemy of good. Yeah. Uh, and so if you don't, um, you know, if you're so worried about getting things exactly right, you might not say anything at all. And then you're really missing out on an opportunity to make both yourself and another person, um, feel a lot better.

ILANA GILOVICH: Performer. Mallory Gracenin from episode seven presented a potent tool for dispelling anxiety. It may seem counterintuitive, but they argue that actually naming our anxiety can dissolve it 

MALLORY GRACENIN: in performance as well as in real life. Sometimes naming it right out loud kills it. Wow. And so even if I am in performance as a glamorous person who looks like they have all the confidence in the world.

I can say, woo, I am so nervous. And for some reason, when you name that small bit of anxiety, it kind of shrinks it. Mm-Hmm. Yes. Because when you're trying to hide [00:07:00] it, it exacerbates. It grows a bit and then you think, oh, they're, they're seeing it and I'm not, na, I'm not naming it, but they're seeing it and they know that I'm nervous.

And then before you know it, that small thing that is very human to feel. Grows into a bit of a monster. 

And so I tend to alleviate myself in conversations. And also it's, it's vulnerable to say that. Yeah. Um, but in conversations, if I don't have all the answers or I feel overwhelmed, and I'm not perfect at this by any means, I'm learning as I go, just like all of us.

But. In the middle of a conversation, if I feel overwhelmed or that I don't have the answers or I'm nervous or I'm underprepared I'll say, oh, 

can we actually pause on this for a second? Because I don't think I, I'm gonna be able to articulate it the way I want to right now. 

Um, and I think it takes vulnerability and confidence to do that, and I think it's important.

And I, I've seen so many people use that tool Yes. And [00:08:00] immediately been relieved of additional stress. Um. As a performer, I've learned that sometimes you can just say it. Mm. And that's bled into my real life too. Yeah. That you don't have to be speaking from a place of authority or you don't have to be in costume to be confident.

Yes. You don't have to have all the tools. Um, you can just say what you need to say. Yeah. And. The courage to do that is really enriching in real life too. Saying something that you mean unapologetically is really lovely 

ILANA GILOVICH: when considering people adept at naming their own discomfort and transmuting that expression into something powerful and generative.

I could think of no better alchemist than Andrew Horn from episode six. Andrew's previous experiences with anxiety have empowered him to dance with it in conversation. 

ANDREW HORN: I oftentimes say that the difference between anxiety and excitement is the story that we attach to the sensation. [00:09:00] You look at anxiety, so much anxiety is, is correlated with not knowing.

And so in this place, I fundamentally, in any transition, right, you're going from one state of being one state of knowing into something that you don't know or that you haven't experienced before. And so there is some anxiety in there as well. Which has its own wisdom. Right? And I think that, you know, even when I think of social flow, so much of the resistance that we experience in social situations is our unwillingness to be with our experience, to validate it as real and deserving of a voice.

And so for me, even right now I'm on a podcast and I'm talking about my anxiety, which so often we just throw off as something that is to be withheld, that is something to be hidden. 

I think the more that I can just talk about my anxiety openly and say that, well, actually there's, there's a message in there.

What is that trying to teach me? And it's trying to show me as I navigate it in this moment with you 

there's something that I don't [00:10:00] know, what is it that I need to know right now? Right? It's not a bad thing or anything, it's just a messenger. And if I'm willing to be with that and to talk about it, there's some wisdom in that exploration that ultimately is gonna help me down the path of whatever I need to be doing next.

I. 

ILANA GILOVICH: According to Andrew, acknowledging and exploring our anxiety can usher us into truer, fuller versions of our own experiences. 

ANDREW HORN: If we're unwilling to be the full, imperfect version of ourselves in the world, how can we expect any of the people that we care about, whether those are our friends or our family members or our employees, to be able to do the same thing?

And I think that what's so helpful about this frame of our authenticity as service is that for most of the people who deal with social anxiety, shyness. They're people who probably have some level of codependence. It's that they're externally validating their self worth. They're people pleasing. And so what becomes so helpful about this [00:11:00] frame is that we realize that my authenticity is not just a vehicle to my own growth or kind feelings or confidence, but that truly for the people that I care about, that I surround myself with, if I want them to feel like they can be themselves, 

I have to do that first. By doing that for myself, I'm also creating space for other people, and I believe that oftentimes our desired behaviors are so much more available when they're couched in that fundamental act of service and benefiting other people as well, which I believe they are. 

ILANA GILOVICH: Andrew recalled a social interaction in which he initially attempted to convey a veneer of confident self-possession, but then dropped it in favor of a much messier and more authentic truth.

ANDREW HORN: How important are the external results? If your internal experience sucks, doesn't feel good? And so what I did is I, I dropped the performance and I came back into what was real for me and how could I just get out of the way and let that happen. [00:12:00] And what I noticed is that it was in the absence of trying to be somebody and being who I was, that not only did I feel better, but fundamentally I was also impacting people the way that I wanted to.

People felt safe with me. People gravitated towards me. I felt like we talked about that. Moment to respond to life. When I wasn't constantly processing the story in my head of how I was being perceived, I felt like I had more space and clarity to respond and articulate my ideas. 

ILANA GILOVICH: As I pondered the medal of messiness, I immediately thought of Max Stossel from episode five.

Max's confidence is a public speaker, and conversationalist stems from his willingness to be vulnerable and unpolished. When a friend shares something tender and messy, max usually responds by saying, beautiful. He has helped me as well as many others, become a and truer version of myself.[00:13:00] 

MAX STOSSEL: That level of just straightforwardness and 

honesty I think is refreshing and. And I think it's usually, it's not as scary to actually do as we might think it is. Like there's an idea that if we do that, if we say the incorrect thing or the impolite thing, it's gonna be so awful. And this is also where, when people ask me about like getting better at public speaking.

I think one of the best things you can do are sort of like improv games or just like getting comfortable. Making a fool of yourself I think is one of the best ways that we can improve our, our public speaking. Just because if the worst thing that happens is like, I get up here and this is a disaster, and like if I can be okay with like, wow, everybody out there just like absolutely just hates what's happening right now and what I'm doing and that's a possibility and maybe that will happen or like I will say an awful thing and everyone's gonna be mad at me.

Like if I can just be with that reality, [00:14:00] then it's like, okay, then what? Like what could really, like I'm comfortable on stage 'cause that's the worst that could happen. If that happens, that happens. But similarly in conversation, it's like, oh, if I really said what I meant, but like that would be so awkward in the room.

But like, yeah, okay, maybe, and then maybe it'd be different. Maybe it'd be fun like. I, yeah, that can be, I think that's, that's a less scary thing than people think it is. And also easier said than done. And certainly in my own life, some conversations, it's still very hard for me to say the real thing that I mean.

Um, but it's, I think it's often less scary to actually 

say the thing than it is that we imagine it's going to be.

I like the idea of 

ILANA GILOVICH: if as humans we're so fixated incorrectly on being perfect and we don't give ourselves enough permission to mess up, what a beautiful thing to, and you'd have to be careful not to make [00:15:00] this too contrived, but like I. Introduce some of these games and thought exercises where messing up is baked into the recipe, and so you sort of get that out of the way.

Like, let's try an opener in which like you're supposed to sort of flail around and be clumsy and weird. And if the, if failing is succeeding, then. That sort of, it reminds the top of any anxiety jam before going into deeper conversation a 

MAX STOSSEL: couple of weeks ago of where like, at the beginning of it, it was feeling just like, like it is nerve, it's nerve wracking to sing in front of people.

Like we're making music, we're starting out, we're getting a feel for each other, and like it was just feeling stuffy. In that it felt important for me at that time to just like do bad singing, like do bad singing, make bad noise, like make noises that are not gonna sound good. Like to really get outta like, yeah.

And for us all to kind of get some of the gunk out of the way of like, and some of the fear [00:16:00] of failure out of the way. Like, yeah, great, let's fail. Let's just fail really intensely and then sort of work backwards from there to ease some of the nerves. And that also, yeah, that, I think that creates a comfort, which is also something that I see in, in conversation.

New conversations with strangers can be quite uncomfortable, and so the faster that we can get to like comfort or something different or interesting. Yeah. I'm, I'm happy with that. 

ILANA GILOVICH: Mm. So playing the Fool is a way to be a great conversationalist. 

MAX STOSSEL: I do like, I do like playing the Fool

and I like that. 

ILANA GILOVICH: Um, philosophy of sometimes maybe what it means to be a great conversationalist is to declare yourself imperfect. I. Triumphantly and unabashedly for in depth discussion of conversational courage. I sought out one of the wisest and most heart-centered conversationalists. I know Francesca Harper, a dancer, actor, singer, choreographer, movement [00:17:00] director, and producer.

Francesca is the founder and director of the Francesca Harper Project and is currently the artistic director of the Ailey two Dance Company. I wish listeners could see Francesca in conversation because her radiance and innate effervescence puts any conversational partner at ease. When I'm with Fran, my nervous system slows down and I remember that I can really take my time to feel my way in conversation instead of feeling compelled to frantically jump to conclusions.

In our interview, I asked Fran about the kinds of conversations she likes to conduct. 

FRANCESCA HARPER: I mean the, you know, just dialogues around the truth and where I think also that safe, creating this safe space for the vulnerability for people to share what they're, uh, fearful of. You know, I think that's where, especially young people who have not had much experience in the world and people, you know, I mean, that's really the important part of a [00:18:00] job as an educator or as a mentor.

To really create that moment that they are sharing, you know, um, where they want to grow or where they feel, um, less than or where they, um, I think fear, right? What they're really, you have to talk through the, I think it's really giving space. To discuss and deliberate around what we don't know perhaps.

You know, I think that really might be it, Alana. I think that's really it, right? Because the unknown and change and what you don't know and we work so, so. Um. So rigorously as artists to improve and have an arsenal of technique and [00:19:00] approaches and, um, but then there's just, we're constantly hit with moments that we are just, I don't know what this is and I have to improvise.

Right. I trust I'm going to right. Follow my intuition. But those moments. And I think about that as being a mother too. My daughter is 12 and I remember watching her once and thinking, oh my gosh, she just doesn't know. 

And 

I could feel myself, you know, at some point you're working with your children, you've gotta stay strong, you gotta stay disciplined.

And I just looked at her and I was like, oh my gosh, she doesn't know. And it really melted my heart. And so that. Awareness, starting a dialogue from that place to give that space for someone to offer, you know, what they need help with or assistance with, or to give insight, [00:20:00] um, into something you may have experienced.

Um, yeah. Does that make any sense?

It makes so 

ILANA GILOVICH: much sense. And the beauty that I feel from what you're saying is when I've been having these conversations about conversation with people who I admire and people that I love talking to, a recurring motif is this sense of let's make something together. Let's get curious because I think conversation, the, the whole philosophy behind this podcast is conversation as a lost art.

And we use it as this very pedestrian means of exchange. But actually when it's elevated, it is like an art form and it can be something that is created and made together. And something I, I hadn't considered before, but I'm now thinking about based on the, what you just said, is you cannot make from a place of knowing.

FRANCESCA HARPER: No. Right, [00:21:00] 

ILANA GILOVICH: and love that. You know, you're saying that, that you have to create the space to not know, and that grand mystery is the place from which all art springs, because I'm thinking Pol specifically with political debates, I. If you are not open to having your mind changed and just seeking to reify your perspective, then can't anything.

I think that's where I talk 

FRANCESCA HARPER: about, you know, that's where we were discussing before, if you think of when I think about progress, right, and change, which I'm an advocate of and being a progressive thinker. 

Yeah. 

You know, I mean that really for me is synonymous with what you just said. Like, you know, we have to be courageous.

In order to make progress as a society, right, we have to like dive into the unknown because we're defining new, uh, laws, defining new guidelines, defining new parameters for ourself or, and support systems [00:22:00] that we don't know, we haven't dealt with. 

Or 

managed before. Right. And yet that takes a certain amount of courage.

ILANA GILOVICH: Yes. 

FRANCESCA HARPER: With a human being. Uh, 'cause that's really for me, I think, you know, if we think about, 

uh, 

I mean I, and I don't know, conservative is such a charged word, right? Right. We think about that for me, progress versus more of a conservative or measured mentality. Um, I think that's. You know, I've been kind of a victim of, uh, that mentality in many ways 

as a woman.

Yeah. As a minority. And so for me, you know, I think that's also when I talk about, like, I'd rather dive into what I don't know. Yeah. And knowing that, right. That on the other side, that we will grow. I mean, I think that's what you're alluding to. It's like, you know, that's, we, we have to, the [00:23:00] only way we can grow, I think is by, um, venturing into these unknown territories.

So, Hmm. I mean, it's so, it's so much in alignment with what my, my, my ethical, my, my, my ethos. 

Yeah. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.

I love thinking about this 

ILANA GILOVICH: idea of 

when I think of to conserve. There's a lot of wonderful things that I want to endure, and yet the things that I think really do endure, endure on their own. And I think if they're true enough will last. Whereas like the things that we are conservative about, I think we tend to actually be covetous of and clinging.

So there's part of me, I mean, I want to conserve natural resources, for [00:24:00] example, I like. I like where you're going with this, which is like, if we are so insistent upon preserving something, are we honoring the natural way when you talk of things or isn't human nature? I realize that when 

FRANCESCA HARPER: I work with these young people or I work with other artists, like curiosity is really like it's an or it's, it's an organic intuitive.

Uh, feeling or emotion, right? Yeah. Oh, what's that? Look at that. Beautiful. Lemme walk over there. That's great. You know, I mean, it's like there's such a beautiful kind of, uh, natural, um, intuitive response when you talk about curiosity. 

Discover something. Oh, I don't know what that is. Let me, right. Or things, you know, I just think it's so, I love curiosity.

I talked to the dancers today. We were in rehearsal and I think, you know, playing that, you know, is, it's a wonderful also to [00:25:00] kind of, um, it's a wonderful, um, it's a wonderful, um, I dunno color. Hmm. Yeah. I think it's right. I think when we talk about, um, you know, launching forward into the unknown or things that we don't know, uh, know, I mean, it's so much harder if there's like a severe approach to it.

Yes. You know what I mean? I think, you know, it's like the curiosity has that delightful, joyful, um, attitude or, or I don't know, you know, demeanor that I think is so, um, you know that that's, there's momentum in that Yes, 

there's momentum in that approach.

ILANA GILOVICH: I [00:26:00] don't, I I'm thinking of, there's a, a Nietzche quote where he says, I would only believe in a God that knows how to dance. Oh. And there's, I know, bless, bless him. But there's, there's something in that, to me, that feels, I. Palpably true. Which is I don't think anything is ever in stasis and so, 

FRANCESCA HARPER: right. I don't think so either.

ILANA GILOVICH: Yeah. Growth is dance growth is that that kinetic tongue fr and I discussed in which she identified that's how truth, I think you're right. And raw vulnerability created art. Listen to how she asked me this next thought provoking question. With such comradery, she's extending an invitation to swim around in an idea together.

FRANCESCA HARPER: I. I was studying acting, and I created a solo for Erica Isaka, who I was working with for many years. And we went through that piece and just add, it was a true story. Like we added real stories that from her experience in that solo, she [00:27:00] performed that piece and people like standing ovation every night.

So I was like, oh my gosh. So that is what that secret is. It's the truth. It's the truth After the truth, after the truth, after the truth after. Right. Real stories. Yes. It was very contemporary language. I mean, people, you know, if you looked at it, you'd probably be like, what the hell? What is the movement?

It's like abstract, right? Yes. But even with the abstraction, having that human story. Yes, live really clearly and honoring that was just, I mean, so that is really for me now in creating works. You know, just having those stories, those, the living at the foundation just have to be there for me. 

ILANA GILOVICH: Yes. I think that's so beautiful 

because.[00:28:00] 

That's what all 

great art is. I think of when I respond to, I mean, Anna Deavere Smith is one of them, but when I see any great art piece of art or artist, I. I'm responding to a sense of recognition of truth. And even when something's utterly novel, it's something that is deeply known to me in its divinity, in its humanity, in its truth.

And so there's something about that idea of stepping back and allowing truth to emerge, which can't be done without vulnerability in any art form, be it go theater conversation, anything. I love what you're saying, which is, wow, PE people respond. I wanna ask you, do you think to 

FRANCESCA HARPER: what's, when you talk about this openness, this is of my own curiosity, yeah.

Do you think that the openness is synonymous or related to vulnerability? [00:29:00] Maybe not. I don't know. I'm just trying to. Unpack, you know, because I know for a fact, like, I think, I think living in Europe for me was helpful. Just, um, I do find that there's, because, you know, my experience there, there was just more time, they create more time for, you know, talking and listening and dinners and um, which I didn't grow up in New York.

Experiencing as much. So I wanted to keep it live a little bit when I came back to New York. 

Yeah, 

just creating a little bit more breathing room and space and time. Yeah. Live so, but that openness,

I do think I. Probably knowing you, you know, in our, in our connection. I do think there is something to that. Yeah. Uh, and I do think that not everybody can [00:30:00] do that, you know, or it recognizes that as a possibility. And sometimes I feel like it has been taken advantage of sometimes. Like I feel people will see it as a weakness.

I don't know. 

It's a strange, I'm just opening up conversation.

No, I mean, 

ILANA GILOVICH: listeners take note. This is why Francesca's such a good conversationalist, I think because you're posing something really provocative and and fruitful, which is, and I, it's an amazing question and I'm not sure, but my gut reaction is. An agenda would preclude that sense of exploratory openness.

That if, if in any way, and I'm thinking of the acting techniques you're talking about, but. If you have an objective in a scene, if your objective is to protect or guard [00:31:00] or preserve or conserve, there's something about that that prevents you from being completely surrendered to the unknown. So I would imagine that openness.

Necessitates vulnerability, 

FRANCESCA HARPER: but I, I like that. That's the way. 

ILANA GILOVICH: Mm-Hmm. Yeah. It 

FRANCESCA HARPER: necessitates with the vulnerability. 

ILANA GILOVICH: But I think you're right, and I think you said something so profound at the very end, which is like people will, will exploit the openness because they perceive it as weakness or softness, and that's precisely the kinds of.

Stories. When we're talking about stories, I wanna subvert because I think of our, our sense of quote unquote strength that's, um, typically very masculine and very brittle and very Right. Ancient. Ancient. Not in a good way. 'cause I think there's a lot of ancient stuff we're reclaiming now, but That's right, yes.

Like there, there's something about [00:32:00] something that fragile. It is actually quite weak in its perceived strength and there's something deeply supple and elastic in like softness, you know? No, I do. 

FRANCESCA HARPER: It's very interesting. I will tell you. Yeah. Um, I don't know. What do you think? Because my husband came to mind and I was always so moved.

He's really a. A gentle soul. It's just innately who he is. 

Yeah. And 

have such admiration that he really lives that way. Very much. Um, you know, he truthful, you know, if he's given his word, he will follow his follow, follow up. And I think also too, um. My mother, when she met him, talked about like, still waters running deep.

Oh 

my God. And I 

thought, that's right. You know, he has this stillness and this listening and this sense of [00:33:00] ease or sense of, and and of being okay with being open and vulnerable. 

Mm-Hmm. Um, 

and I remember one of our conversations, I was at a party with him once. And I think I was the only African American at the party.

Mm. 

And he could tell I was nervous and just came and was just kept talking and Mm. You know, just made me feel seen. Yeah. And important. And I don't know if he even recognized 

it, you know, he might have just wanted to talk to me.

Uh, 

he was flirting. There we go. But I just think dual objectives in that scene. I'm so aggressive and I'm so, you know, I've been working, I think as, as a dancer, it's just like, and I kind of an aggressive, I. Physical pursuit, you know? And so I think the [00:34:00] softening and the allowance and the permission and the, like you talk about this, um, fluidity and, um, is such a lovely experience, 

you know?

Um.

And you personify 

ILANA GILOVICH: that. I think like you are relentlessly vibrant and relentlessly. I mean, it's, it's crazy because you're so strong in your openness and I think that you give me immense amounts of hope for the world that I into truly. And. And I asked Francesca Yeah. About why courageous art matters. I that too, both in conversation and in other artistic mediums.

FRANCESCA HARPER: Just making sure that my work would speak for itself and that my work would move others to open their hearts Ilana. Mm-Hmm. And you know, just like, I think that's the gift of what we do. We can really have people open their hearts and [00:35:00] reconsider their humanity. And I think that that for me was just. You know, I thank goodness I've been in the arts for so long.

'cause now I know the recipes, you know, to, you know, right. I do. I have the recipes to like melt, you know, melt people's heart to start to soften them or. Make them feel seen or relate to them. Like that's a big one too, is to, you know, right. I to really relate to someone. Mm-Hmm. And make the effort to relate to them.

So I think that all of those, I think we're so fortunate to be in the arts because, you know, we're constantly making these works that can provide that and illuminate and. And help us, help others act more humanely or react more humanely.

ILANA GILOVICH: [00:36:00] Conversation works best when we summon the courage to get out of our own way. The most beautiful, artful human practices, I'm thinking about meditation, theater, poetry. Take a slice of life and frame it, holding it up to the light to sweep us beyond ourselves. The art of conversation emerges from our valor, from our ability to be real and raw, from our willingness to take a stab at something greater, more transcendent, more re respondent in conversation.

Risk is just another word for trust. Liftoff was created and directed by Ilana Gilovich and produced by Greg Hanson. The featured guests on this episode were Nick Epley, Amit Kumar, Mallory Gracenin, Andrew Horn Max Stossel, and Francesca Harper. If you like liftoff, please share it with your friends and be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, so the power of potent and playful conversation can continue.