The Hotel Investor Playbook
Welcome to The Hotel Investor Playbook, hosted by real estate investor and hospitality operator Michael Russell. Michael is the co-founder of Malama Capital and Howzit Hostels, and has built a personal real estate portfolio exceeding $20 million.
With an operator-first mindset, Michael brings a practical perspective to hotel investing. On the show, he breaks down what it actually takes to scale from short-term rentals into boutique hotels, covering deal sourcing, operations, capital strategy, and risk.
Each week, Michael shares real lessons from the field as he builds toward a $400 million real estate business, giving listeners an honest look at the decisions, challenges, and strategies behind the growth. Subscribe and follow along as he documents the journey in real time.
The Hotel Investor Playbook
How to Craft a Hotel People Will Actually Remember | Bashar Wali E49
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
The most powerful part of a hotel stay isn’t the design or the amenities, it’s the feeling guests take home.
That’s the philosophy of Bashar Wali, one of the most candid and creative voices in hospitality, who's spent 30+ years building, operating, and reinventing hotels around the world.
In this episode of the Hotel Investor Playbook, Bashar shares:
- Why “give-a-shit-ability” beats corporate playbooks
- The power of emotional intelligence in hotel teams
- The biggest mistakes first-time owners make
- The difference between the three types of hotel deals (core, value-add, and opportunistic)
Bashar doesn’t hold back. Whether you’re an operator, investor, or aspiring hotelier, this conversation will reshape how you think about hospitality.
Follow and share the Hotel Investor Playbook so more people can learn how to invest in hospitality assets the right way.
About Bashar
Bashar Wali is a seasoned hotelier, entrepreneur, and the founder of This Assembly and Practice Hospitality, with over 30 years of experience leading and scaling some of the industry’s most innovative hotel brands. In this episode, Bashar shares his playbook across acquisitions, funding, marketing, and operations, revealing how emotional intelligence, design, and culture are just as critical as deal structures and NOI. From building authentic guest loyalty without points, to structuring creative capital stacks, to “making the magic” in operations, his insights are both tactical and timeless. Whether you’re a first-time hotel investor or looking to scale your portfolio, this conversation will give you actionable lessons to apply in your own ventures.
Connect with Bashar
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/basharwali
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/basharwali
Website: https://www.thisassembly.com
Connect with Michael on Instagram or LinkedIn.
Email Us at info@hotelinvestorplaybook.com
Visit the Hotel Investor Playbook Instagram
Most hotels are playing the wrong game. They obsess over trendy design, scripted greetings, and cookie cutter playbooks. And guess what? Guests forget them the second they leave. Enter a Shah Wally. Now he's here to blow that up. With 30 years of experience and absolutely zero filters, he's gonna tell you why give a shit ability beats the Marble lobbies and how emotional intelligence is the ultimate competitive edge. This conversation is bold. It's funny, it is refreshingly real. Part masterclass, part roast of everything broken in hospitality. Just trust me, you're gonna laugh and you're gonna think differently about investing in hotels. Let's dive in. Welcome to the Hotel Investor Playbook, your guide to building wealth and freedom through boutique hotel ownership, hosted by Mike and Nate.
Nathan St Cyr:Get in the game.
Michael Russell:On today's show, we're joined by none other than Bashar Wally, who is not just another hotel exec. Look, he's someone who's built, operated, and who has reinvented hotels with a unique point of view. He's got over 30 years in the game from being a GM at Starwood to scaling Providence hotels to now running this assembly and practice hospitality. Bashar Wally brings a fire, I'll tell you that much, and a philosophy that's rare in this space. So he's candid, he's creative, and he's sharp, and he's here to tell us how to make hotels memorable, not just profitable. Bashar, welcome to the show.
Bashar Wali:Thank you guys for having me. I'm here to learn how to make money in hotels after 30 years. So I'm hoping to learn from you. But let's figure it out together. 30 years in, I haven't figured out how to make money. I know how to have fun, but not how to make money. Thanks for having me. Delighted.
Michael Russell:Yeah. Well, let's rewind a bit. Okay, before we get into all that, I've heard you say before that hospitality isn't something that you learn, it's something you feel. And I know that your roots are in Syria. Can you share how growing up in Damascus has shaped your view of hospitality?
Bashar Wali:Funny, I often crap on my Ivy League brethren from Cornell, and I say, I'm going to save you half a million bucks and give you a degree right now without even going to college. Hospitality is not rocket science. We all have it, and that's one way or another. And the connections to my roots with it goes to a quote, a single quote that I think really is the master's degree in this industry. And the quote goes When a stranger shows up at your door, feed him for three days before you ask him who he is, where he's from, or where he's going. Because by then, he'll either have the strength to answer, or you'll be such good friends, it won't matter. And I literally drop the mic. What we do is not rocket science. Someone shows up at your door, they need shelter. Anyone can provide shelter. Shelter is the basic table stake, it's the commodity. That's what gets you in the game. You can't have a hotel without beds and showers and Wi-Fi. And by the way, now, good design and good music and good food and good scent and Instagrammable moments and shazammable moments and vomit, vomit, vomit. Everybody needs that. That stuff is no longer unique. It is the table stake. By the way, I talk a lot about farm to table. Imagine going to a restaurant that says we use frozen Cisco shit, can't eat here. Like farm to table has almost become a table stake, right? Like you have to have it. So when hotels talk about all these things, I'm like, those are table stakes. They get you in the game. What wins you the game is how I feel when I walk into your hotel. And the quote I gave you is fundamentally that is if you make me feel welcome and make me feel like I matter and make me feel like I belong, you've got me. Like it's really not that hard. Don't screw it up. Be nice. And by the way, be nice isn't a function of script. Like this isn't about memorizing script. Hotels back in the day, still to this day, brands, with script how you say hello and how you say good afternoon, how you answer the phone. And I say, Mike, just make me feel welcomed. I don't care how you do it. You could do it in Spanish, it doesn't matter. And I think we've fundamentally lost our way because our business has become more focused on things than on feelings. And the things are important, but the things do not win you the game. So that's sort of what really ultimately I think about hospitality. And back to my upbringing. Like I tell people, I literally do not remember ever eating a single meal at home alone with just my family. A lot of those cultures are very focused around food, and food is such an important part. And it's not the quality of the food or anything like that. It's just the communal nature of food. So you end up being, I tell people I'm the host of the suari. It's my job to make you feel a certain way when you go somewhere. And that's my job as a hotelier. Revenue management and accounting, again, table stakes. It's that nebulous, intangible thing of how I make you feel when you walk in my door.
Nathan St Cyr:Okay, I love that. And from my understanding, you've held every single position in a hotel, all the way from the very bottom all the way up to the very top. So when I think of that experience, how has that shaped now the way that you view that simple end feeling having worked in every one of those positions? Invaluable.
Bashar Wali:It is absolutely invaluable. And I want to be clear, I wasn't fortunate enough to be in a management training program where I spent a week in housekeeping or a week here. Like I actually worked this job for a living because I had to sort of work my way up. I graduated at a time where the economy, I went to hotel school, spent four years of my life in hindsight. I wouldn't have done it. I'd still be doing what I'm doing today. But I think having had a finance background would probably been more accretive to my career than having a hotel degree. Nothing against hotel schools. Love them, went to them, they have their job. But I'm trying to make the point of oversimplifying what we do. But having worked literally every job, and I mean literally every job, first of all, gives you a whole different appreciation to what happens behind the scenes and what it takes. But the simple example I'll tell you if you're a room attendant, generally immigrant, generally non-English speaker, the only training you need to give that person beyond cleaning the room, which again is stable stake, is hey, when a guest walks by in the hallway, stop what you're doing. You don't have to say anything. Stop what you're doing, put your hand on your heart and smile. That's all you have to do. Or just smile, or just make eye contact with them. Don't make it uncomfortable. Don't force them to say good afternoon. They don't know how to say good afternoon. But what you need to instill in them is this idea that when someone walks by, acknowledge they exist. That's it. The bar is so low. And those are the places and the moments where it actually matters. If you're a bus boy cleaning a table, acknowledge the people at the table that they exist. And I think ultimately, no matter who you are, billionaire or a bus person, we're all humans and we want that thing. And I get very geeky and scientific here, but this idea of we're packed animals, going Darwinian on you here for a minute. We need each other to survive. We need to know we're in our village. I've, by the way, trademarked the term longing for belonging in hospitality with the idea that we're all desperate to find a home. Whether you're a teammate, whether you're a guest, we want to feel like we've arrived and we belong. Because once we do, everything changes. Because now I feel like I belong. This is my place. My enjoyment of everything's high. So I think having worked on the ground has informed my thinking about how to really craft an experience for a guest that is holistic beginning to end. Not just at the front desk where someone is trained in English speaking and has memorized, I say good afternoon and good evening, but how to do it at every touch point. And I've seen it done in other places where it feels robotic. Again, to call people out, Palmia and Cabo, part of the one and only group, part of their thing is anyone who you walk by, anyone, landscaper, janitor, whatever, will stop and will do something to the effect. I forget what it is. And it almost feels a robotic, be rehearsed and subservient. And I don't want you to feel subservient. You and I are the same people. I just want you to acknowledge that I've walked by you, that a fellow human, it's it's I don't know, like in the forest, if two monkeys walk by, I don't know. Hey, are you monkey? I see you like we're the same people. It's that simple, and we fail at it miserably because we're more focused on throwing Instagram bullshit in your face and throwing signs that say, hi, we're cool in your face. But that's really the part that matters. So having been in the bowels of the building gives you a different appreciation of how to craft an experience that is holistic beginning to end.
Nathan St Cyr:When I'm hearing you say this, I can picture a hospitality experience that is from an unbelievable, incredibly high ADR. But then I when I turn back and look at the business that we developed, Mike and I really knew nothing about this. We were investors first, saw an opportunity with developing our hostel brand, but we went in there knowing human nature. And so when we built all of our processes, everything that we built, we built around this human experience. The simple things that you're talking about that you could just take for granted. Anybody that's working housekeeping, literally just when someone walks by, give them a little shotgun, aloha, no big deal. Go and make a phone call before people come three days out. That's like, hey, aloha, we're so stoked. We're a hostel. So we can be just our present, like no big deal. But these little human touch points that really do differentiate the way that that somebody ends up when they leave, all they're leaving with is a feeling.
Bashar Wali:100%. How about Airbnb for a minute and the genius of Airbnb? I go to pick a brand to make a reservation. And I feel like I'm going into this dark, black, deep hole of corporate America. And Betty, the person who's talking to me online, I already knew before AI, Betty wasn't real. She was a bot, right? Airbnb says, no, no, no, no, no. When you decide to book with Airbnb, the person you're dealing with is a host. Like host is such a warm, fuzzy word. Like I feel like I already got a hug from someone. And for all I know, that host is Betty, the bot. But that very set, that very term they use, host, gives you the warm and fuzzies. This idea of acknowledging and seeing people, by the way, goes deeper than just the customer, the guest. What about your employee? I think the employee, the teammate is more important than the guest, because without them, it doesn't matter. Nothing will happen with the guest. And similarly, what message do you send to your teammates when a homeless person walks into the lobby? How you treat them and how you engage with them, a stranger, a local, a vendor, right? I think this idea, people ask about, well, how do you train for this and how do you do this? And I say, this isn't training, this is about setting the example. How do you feel about telling your employee the public bathroom better be spotless, but your bathroom could look like a war zone? What message are you sending? You don't matter, they do, they're more valuable than you. And how do you expect them to behave? Now, I want to be clear by the way, I say this often. What I describe is the nirvana state that I want to be in. I'm not saying my hotels are perfect. Far from it. Far from it. It's hard, it's complicated, but I'm constantly preaching this gospel that that about what's important to what matters most. And in many cases, many operators, and I give a lot of my operator friends and colleagues a little bit of a lot of leeway because it's not up to them. Often it's the owners who don't see the light, a lot of big institutionals who are in and out. I don't care. Let the next guy worry about it. I want to get in and get out. I'm focused on my IRR. But if you really distill everything down to its very basics, what we're talking about here, it's really simple. And we talk about loyalty a lot, talk about building loyalty by calling the guy three days in advance, saying, Listen, what can we do for you? Oh, thanks for calling. I'm coming with my girlfriend, it's my whatever anniversary. And what's interesting about it is you say hostile. I think this idea isn't exclusive to any class. Like it doesn't matter. It's not luxury or or hostile. It could be applied the same. And the example I use is imagine I'm going to a day's inn checking in with my wife. And we mention to Mike, the guy checking us in. He overhears us. We don't mention. He overhears us say that it's our daughter's birthday today. And Mike out of his own pocket takes a dollar, sticks it in the vending machine, buys a bag of NMA MMs on a sticky note, writes happy birthday and delivers it to the roads. Well, you've won me for life. You have won me for life. So this idea that this is luxury and it's ladies and gentlemen serving, ladies and gentlemen, is flawed because we always want to do such heroic acts to deliver this when at the end of the day, it's not the thing you're delivering. Whether it's a bottle of chateau lafite that costs $2,000 or the dollar MM, the end result is the same. The item is inconsequential. But again, we fail miserably because we are more focused on the things that don't matter that people don't take home with them rather than the same things that do matter.
Nathan St Cyr:Mike and I were just discussing this. He just went out and viewed this two hotel package. And we're talking about economy-based brands. But when we look at the reviews, Mike is like, you gotta check out the reviews. He's like, look at what they all say. And when we look at them, it's like the staff is actually mean, not just not nice, but like the staff is actually me. And then we go and look at the same economy-based brand 10 miles away, same tertiary market of a great destination. And it has a $30 higher ADR, same same brand, same distance from this destination. And we're like, okay, but you go and read the reviews, and it's like the experience that the people are having with the same economy-based brand, when you really look at the hospitality being delivered, there's this major difference. And I think that what we're figuring is it really is the center of the value and can be the differentiator and can have an economic impact, even if you're talking about an economy-based brand. 100%.
Michael Russell:Okay, but I want to jump in here though. I need I gotta ask this. So what you guys are describing is very much in alignment with the book Unreasonable Hospitality, which I've read. Everyone on our leadership team, I said it's mandatory reading. Go out and read this. And there's all these moments that are very similar to what you're describing with these dream weavers who the little things doesn't have to cost money. It could be like overhearing that someone had a great time in New York and they're dining at this fabulous restaurant at 11 Madison Park, and they just had wine and a five-course meal and they had all this great stuff. But the waiter overhears that the only thing they didn't check off on their trip to New York was they wish they would have gotten a New York hot dog. And the waiter then goes outside to a street stall, buys a $4 hot dog, brings it into the kitchen, they plate it, they cut it up, and they serve it into four bite-sized pieces of plate it in this fine dining establishment, and they give it to the guest. And that was the moment. It wasn't the wine, it wasn't the service, it wasn't all the other little things that go into fine dining. It was the hot dog that took them to the moon. And so these moments where you're describing, you don't have to be at the four seasons. You could be at the Motel 6 and put the little sticky note on the MM. So I get that. But here's the crux of what I sometimes struggle with. You've coined this term give a shit ability. Right? How do you actually build that into the hotel's culture, especially when staff turnover is high and budgets are tight? How do you get people to really own what we're describing and want to do it and actually execute it on a regular basis?
Bashar Wali:Great, great question. And the regular basis part is the hardest part, obviously. And we'll talk about that in a minute. And the example you gave from Will's book. And listen, I will say this to Will's face. He's not a genius. He doesn't claim to be a genius. He says, listen, I'm just human and I am emotionally intelligent, and I hear people and see people, and I do what I can in my power to attend to those people because that's a business I chose. I chose to be in the hospitality business, right? By the way, the DMV needs hospitality training. There's no reason why the DMV can't be emotionally intelligent. It's not a cost issue. And to your point about low end and high end, I have this thing we didn't talk about. I have a one-night stand relationship with hotels. I travel a ton, and I only stay in hotels one night, one time. So New York three nights, I moved three times. Last week I stayed in my 260th hotel in Manhattan. And I'll stay anywhere from the Carlisle, the Mark, the St. Luigi's, the whatever. And I'll stay at hostels and share a room with sketchy people doing sketchy shit in the middle of the night. And literally, I often learn more from hostels than I do from ultra luxury. Because ultra luxury, all they know how to do is throw money at the deal, right? Just throw money at it. More money, more money, more people, more money, more people. The hostile guys are scrappy. Necessity is the mother of all invention. If they can't find the money to fix the problem with money, they become innovative. So you learn more from them. So it is truly fascinating to watch sort of the learning curve, how the scrappy guys, who used to be the independents back in the day. Now everything's become ubiquitous, but hostels are super innovative. The issue with what you're describing is you can't train people to give a shit. You can mandate it and force it. And anyone can do that, but it will never be genuine. Because the hot dog example you give, or the MM example that I gave, if you made it mandatory, it loses its effectiveness in a way. The only way I can describe it is what we do, every brand we know and love is a cult. People don't like the word cult because it has negative connation to it. Cult is part of culture. If Apple tomorrow, on the 9th during their conference, announced that they're selling toilet paper for $50 a roll. I will literally go and buy that toilet paper because I subscribe to that cult, I'm a member of that cult, I drink the Kool-Aid of that cult. Now that toilet paper better deliver, better be worth my money. But you know how it delivers and it's worth my money? It makes me feel a certain way. Because now I walk down the street bragging, I'm holding that Apple toilet paper. Think about that the handbag industry. A Birkin and a coach are basically at the end of the day the same bag. They do the same job. They hold, they carry your shit in it. But the Birkin is a status signal for you. It makes you feel like you belong to that tribe. You belong to that private member club, etc. etc. etc. You've got to create an environment where people, employees more importantly than guests, feel like they belong. They need to drink your Kool-Aid. And the only way to do that is to have conviction yourself, A, and treat them the way you want them to treat others and do up onto them what you want them to do onto others. So the example we we use again back to the hot dog example. If I do that to the guest, but then I hear Nate, my employee, mention something and I don't act on it, I failed miserably. Because if I do it to Nate, my employee, who sees me do it as his boss, he's then gonna feel empowered and naturally wanting to do it for others. I'll give you an example. Nate works for me. I know how much Nate makes. And Nate mentions, oh my God, I am going to Hawaii for the first time ever. I'm taking my wife, my fiance, my husband, my boyfriend, whatever. And they say, Oh, interesting. Nate, you're going to Hawaii first time. Amazing. Where are you going? Oh, we're going to Maui. Where are you flying? Oh, we're flying from Portland to Maui on the on the Hawaiian Airlines flight. Oh, great. Okay. Got it. Not a word. Pick up the phone, call Hawaiian Airlines, get him upgraded the next day. He shows up to that airplane with his girlfriend, wife, whatever, and he's been upgraded to first class. Think about the message I'm sending to him. So now I've bought I've earned his loyalty. I haven't bought his loyalty. I've earned his loyalty. Not because of how much the thing costs, but because I heard him and I acknowledge that he's a person that matters to me personally and have taken that action. So the very long answer to your question, Mike, is it's impossible to standardize this. It begins with hiring the right people, the hardest thing to do in an industry that's very transitory to your point. I've been working with the dean of a hospitality school about the following. For me to hire you for any job, I literally don't care any job. I want two things for you. I want common sense, exceedingly uncommon, as you guys well know, and I want emotional intelligence. Because if you find someone who has emotional intelligence, they don't need training to know, hey, Nate said he's had a really bad day. It's two o'clock. He just checked in the hotel, two in the morning. He's starving. Nothing is open. My emotional intelligence will drive me to say, you know what, Nate, they make us a handful of sandwiches in the back for us employees. It's not much, it's a tuna fish sandwich. Be happy to offer you one. We have an extra one. That comes from emotional intelligence, not training. So it's impossible to do on every with every employee at every occasion, but you do enough of it. You set the example enough back to cults. The cult leaders, if you don't yourself, if you're sitting in your ivory tower pushing orders down, well, that's that then people fear you don't follow you because they love you. But most of the successful ones, I'm sitting with you on the ground. I'm not in my ivory tower. We're eating the same food, we're going to the same bathroom, we're using the same things. So I think fundamentally it's a way of life, it's it's a vibe you create that people then subscribe to. You cannot, you can try to hire the right people, you can explain it to them, but I can't give you a sheet that can anticipate every question Nate may ask you as a guest. I need to trust you that you're emotionally intelligent enough and empowered enough to act upon what you hear and see. And again, not every employee is going to get it perfect, and not every guest is going to experience it. It is unreasonable to expect that, but you do it for enough and it becomes sort of inertia. And I've seen it become like competitive, right? Like employees want to outdo the next person. Now, if Nick comes in and says, Oh man, I've been working my whole life so hard because I've been wanting to buy that G Wagon. Well, I ain't buying you a G Wagon, buddy, right? But there's a lot of ways you could deliver. The hot dog example again is a great example. It cost them, I don't know, five bucks to get somebody a hot dog who has now become part of their book. They tell the world about it. And you don't need to do it for every single one. That's the important part. You need to do it for enough people that it becomes your mojo, your thing. Yeah.
Nathan St Cyr:You're I'm feeling a little emotional just hearing you talk about this and thinking about our team and the leadership that we put together. And you're creating in my mind kind of what we have and what we built, and because of our leaders, because of what they built and because of what they're doing.
Bashar Wali:It's so simple, right? I'll give you another example. It's so simple. And this applies to everything in life. This applies to family. I have a daughter who's afraid of spiders. She sees a spider, she freaks out. My natural reaction is to walk up and kill the spider. My wife says, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Why pick up the spider and put it outside? Think about the message that sends to the kids. Now, you don't need to beat it in their head or train them or say you can't do that or lecture them, but your actions are what informs their behavior. And you kind of, again, back to the cult or the work. You as the boss, how you treat other people, how you treat outsiders, how you treat the vendor, how you treat colleagues, how you treat bosses, workers, it's all a reflection of the environment you create. We're so blind to it. We want you to we want to tell you to take care of the guests, but we go and scream at you, the employee. Again, like it, it just, it's we are all humans and you have to think about it from that lens.
Nathan St Cyr:Hey guys, if you're excited about investing in hospitality, but still have a few question marks in your mind, you're not alone. Maybe you understand the potential, but you're not quite ready to take down your own deal yet. Look, earlier in our journey, both Mike and I invested passively alongside seasoned operators, which gave us a behind-the-scenes view and showed us the playbook while our money worked for us. That's what we offer our capital partners a chance to be a part of real deals, see how they come together, and start building the confidence to do in yourself without carrying all that risk on your first go. If you'd like to know what that might look like for you, click the link in the show notes. Now let's get back to it.
Michael Russell:All right. So you've been talking a lot about team culture and to a degree operations, but let's talk a little bit about brand building and differentiation, marketing, identity. I know that you've been critical of hotels that copy and paste trends that they put up the plant walls or they've got curated art or whatever cool vibe is that it doesn't really mean anything. So, what makes a hotel truly memorable in your eyes?
Bashar Wali:Well, the memorable part is easy. I I sort of describe it out of the 260 hotels in New York. I say, I only remember when someone goes out of their way and genuinely gives a shit. That's the bar. It's super low, right? Again, the hot dog example, the MM example, all these examples that shows that someone went out of their way. They didn't have to. It's not expected. And they genuinely, because they cared, or at least convinced me enough that they cared. I don't care if they actually care. They have to convince me that they care about whatever it is that I have my problem, my desire, my issue. That's what makes a hotel memorable. Outside of that, the problem has become is that everything is so ubiquitous. Early on in the independent hotel days, you have local coffee in the lobby and you blew people's mind. Oh my god, they have local coffee in the lobby. Well, now a hyat has a tattoo artist in the lobby. Cool has become ubiquitous, and we all follow trends. And the very definition of the word trend is it has a shelf life. I say let's focus on human behavior, which takes a long time to change. So I sort of like the word trending, not trend, right? And what that means is how do we interact with the room? Do I need a desk or do I not need a desk? Is food late availability? Those are the things that are thoughtful and intentional that you do because they mean something to me. Again, I don't know anyone who goes to any hotel who says, I really want to go to a boring, ugly beige hotel. Now, cool has different levels, right? It's all relative. What's cool to you may not be cool to me, and vice versa. And what's affordable to you may not be affordable to me. So forgetting all of that, distilling all of that down. I think what makes a hotel memorable is a place that makes you feel. I'm not gonna say feel what? It's the word feel. And the word feel comes from something that you've done that's thoughtful, something a surprise and delight, like we talked about, that you've done for me. I the analogy is it's to say, look, I go to a hotel, I spend $1,000 or $100 a night. It doesn't matter. I take home nothing with me. The only thing I take home with me is maybe a stolen towel. That's the extent of it, right? You fail if I don't go home and have a reason to talk about where I stayed and why, right? And by the way, saying you have a Picasso in the lobby just because you're rich and have a Picasso in the lobby doesn't mean shit. Like, why is there a Picasso in the lobby? What's the context of a Picasso in the lobby in Cleveland? It has zero context. It wasn't intentional, it wasn't thoughtful. Someone said, I'm rich, I own a Picasso, I'm gonna put it in the lobby. Fantastic. Now, if you tell me a story about the Picasso and how the owner of this hotel came from nothing and worked their entire life, and now it has some context, but just throwing stuff and money at things doesn't mean anything. So what makes a place memorable are the people that are in that building and how they make me feel. Because what I take home with me at the end of the day is the feeling. I use the analogy of theater. People say, What business are you in? And I say, I'm in the theater business. I can go buy the best piece of dirt on Times Square, build the most spectacular theater ever built on this planet, dripping with gold and platinum and hand-carved and picassas and everything in the world. Have a mediocre story and mediocre actors, and no one will care. People do not go to the theater to admire the building. A beautiful building is accretive to the theater experience, but that is not why I go to the theater. Adam, go to a gallery to admire the gallery. I go to a gallery to admire the art. Go 10 blocks off Times Square, buy a good enough building, focus your time and energy on hiring, training, and retaining an amazing cast. Build a set that's accretive to telling the story, whether it's found objects, garbage cans, or golden plan them. It's whatever the story deems is necessary, and the world will be talking about your story, about your theater, because I go to the theater for the play, and I bring that memory home with me. So that's really the nuance is we focus more on the building than we do on the store. That's gold.
Michael Russell:And that hits home. Yeah, I'm reconciling because you're talking a lot about this experience. And in my mind, it suits, it fits very well. It aligns with independent hotels. But you started off this episode talking about how hospitality has been it's becoming grained. Well, you've got to follow the script, you got to follow the protocol, you've got to follow so much of what is just the standard is. And to a degree, that bleeds into the personnel. So the overwhelming majority of hotels that are out there are branded. They have standardized facilities. And what you're describing runs contrary to that to a degree. And I'm wondering how, as a consultant, do you reconcile that, whether it's through property management or through principal consulting, to say, hey, look, you've got this beautiful Mary, you've got this Hyatt, you've got this whatever hotel that's a brand. How do you inspire the staff to be different than just the everyday ordinary branded hotel and go and be special when the protocol is to be the same and consistent?
Bashar Wali:Great, great point. Great question. Someone who works at McDonald's cannot decide to add barbecue sauce to the burger because that's not consistent with the bread. That would be even if they heard you say I like barbecue sauce, they can't change the burger. They can offer you barbecue sauce on the side, but they shouldn't change the burger. But that same person can be emotionally intelligent by greeting you a certain way or talking to you a certain way. Like I use this example, I show up at a hotel. My last name is four letters. I'm holding my credit card and my license in my hand, and I'm spelling my name as I walk up to you at the front desk. Even if you're if your protocol is to ask me if I'm checking in, please don't ask me if I'm checking in. What the hell do you think I'm doing? I'm literally handing you my credit card and my license. I get the brands, the big brands, desire for consistency. And that is that's that's that's their magic, is they're consistent. What I get at the Marriott in Cleveland is the same as the Marriott in Warsaw, right? But the people and how they treat me, there's not a necessarily consistency for that. It's not necessary. It's about understanding how to agree. So the example I'm using again, if I show up to you with my credit card and my license in hand, please don't tell me about the spa. I'm staying there one night. It doesn't make sense. Don't tell me about the brunch. I'm staying one night and it's not the weekend. But Nate shows up fumbling through his wallet, bitching about his flight, complaining about whatever. He clearly needs to be talked to. So again, back to this idea of emotional intelligence is emotional intelligence does not make you deviate from the goal. It makes you approach getting to the goal in a different way. If Marriott's goal is to be nice to their customers, I guarantee you that's what they say. It is not about saying good afternoon, good morning, good evening. It's about make sure the customer feels welcome. How you choose to make me do that is up to you, should be up to you, as long as you don't deviate from the goal, right? I mean, that's the point. You can't deviate from the goal of the brand. Now, the brand conversation is a much bigger conversation. Brands were once the certainty of execution pre-internet, right? If I wanted to go to Warsaw and I knew nothing about Warsaw, my flight, my travel agent or my secretary at the time said, Marriott, I know what he's gonna get. It's gonna look exactly the same, same, same, same, same, same. Well, that has been now democratized because of the internet. Why would I stay at a Marriott in Warsaw before learning more about it and deciding to choose it because it's unique and special? So the proposition of brand in hotels has been diminished. And the case in point for that is the fact that every brand has been ferociously anxious to get into the independent space by offering collections because they realize I no longer need the Marriott in Warsaw, but I will take the autograph in Warsaw that has a unique personality that gives me the certainty of execution of Marriott. I sort of describe it like the last name. I don't need everyone to be called Bob, Bob, Bob, Bob, Bob, Marriott. The siblings have their own independent names and personalities, but knowing that they're part of the Marriott family gives me comfort that they come from a good family. So again, the proposition of brands has completely diminished the value proposition in a world that's been democratized by the internet. Different for FB, because McDonald's, although, as you know, you go to McDonald's in France and they have beer and they have different things and they have specialty menu items. But I usually will go to that place because I don't want to think about it. I want to know what I'm getting. And the big brands have managed to do that through the soft brand.
Michael Russell:Let's shift gears a little bit into that ownership side if you're considering which route to go here. I've heard you say that hotel investors can fall into the trap of building something for themselves, not the guest. So I want to know from your perspective, what what mistakes do you see first-time owners or developers make most often?
Bashar Wali:I mean, you just hit the nail on the head. This business is prideful, it's sexy, it's good bragging rights to your friends at a cocktail party that you own this cool hotel. If you're a 60-year-old white dude, and when you travel, you always stay at four seasons. And you decide you want to build a cool, four-star lifestyle, funky hotel. Don't make it for you. It's not for you. In fact, if it became perfect for you, I failed miserably. Because you know what I've done now? I've built you a four seasons under a different color because that's what you know and that's what you love. So taking your ego out of the equation and saying, who is my customer? Who am I coming after? And how do I deliver a product they want? And by the way, we all have egos, right? Without egos, nothing gets built. But you have to know where to check your ego at the door. A lot of these same guys that I'm describing think they're cool and they're in the know. Sadly, they're not. And they end up making these decisions and the yes, men and women around them nod and smile and they say yes. And they both end up building these things that make no sense, that have no context, because they're not keeping up with what's happening. So either know that you know what you're doing, not by your own opinion, because I'm a legend of my own mind, right? You need people around you, you need to surround yourself with people who are going to push back on you and say no and say, Mike, you're out of your mind. This makes zero sense in this market. What are you thinking? Let's talk about it. But I think you have these people who think they have good taste who don't, who surround themselves by yes men and women, and you end up getting the sort of same copy. Oh, I stayed at a great Thompson the other day. I think we need a Thompson in Pick a City, and they stick a Thompson and pick a city. That's not because it makes sense. That's not because it's seeded, that's because they thought that's what's cool and that's what that city needed. So ultimately, it really is about ego and taste. Nobody wants to admit they don't have good taste because they don't know they're how they have good taste, right? But I think it's about the people around them and it's about building something. I hate this word authenticity. Authenticity to me means an unapologetic point of view. That's how I describe it. If you want to build a maritime-focused hotel, go all in on it. Don't deviate from it. That's what you're gonna do and own it. But what ends up happening is you dilute, you dilute, you dilute, and it ends up being nothing. The concept ends up being nothing, ends up being Mr. Potato Head with all the things in the wrong places because you're trying to hodgepodge a bunch of things together that don't belong together. So I think intention, purposefulness, thoughtfulness, and making sure you do something with soul and authenticity. Don't copy paste because it all looks the same now. Listen, I play in that four-star space, the independence. I can't tell you one from another anymore. They literally all look the same. So, how do you create something unique and different? You have to be authentic and say, This is what I'm doing. I don't care why. Ace Hotels, this is Alex Calderwood. May he rest in peace. He was a genius. He literally went, everybody was chasing the other thing. He goes, he said, You guys can have the next thing. Everybody's chasing the next thing. It's like you can have the next thing, I'm gonna go do the other thing. And he crushed it. And Ace was a disruptor, it was one of a kind. There aren't that many more of that brand nowadays because everybody's following the same formula. If you want to make money, find a problem to fix or an underserved market to serve. So if you show up in a market and there's a hundred of the this and you just do a hundred in one, what do you expect? You're not getting anything, you're just adding more inventory of the same to a market that has the same. If you can figure out how to find a problem to fix or how to provide something that's missing in that market, that's how you're gonna make money. That's how you're gonna carve your own pie, not just share carve in a slice of the same pie everybody's trying to slice and piece of. Go ahead, mate.
Nathan St Cyr:Yeah, well, I just I want to push back on something for a second because you're a freaking hotelier. You're like, you're the hospitality guy, you're the freaking experience, you're someone that has this deep care for that experience. Now, if we back up from that though, and go, there's a lot of people that aren't you that are like just tomdrumming their way through life that literally just need to stop on their way somewhere. They don't care so they want to be treated well. So when when we're looking at this space, we're not in this because hotel ownership is sexy. We're not in this, we don't really have the ego-driven. I mean, dude, we went in and created hostels, like right. It was very contrary, and but we went and did things to our standard, we did our deal. But now we're in this place where we're we're seeing that there is need, and what a brand can provide is simply exposure. And if we can go and do that really well.
Bashar Wali:My ad my ad is kicking in. I already have your answer. I already finished your question. And my mic go okay. All right, okay. Shoot. I like cars, I like gas bezeling cars. Please don't judge me. I'm I'm waiting for the G-Wagon electric and for someone to buy it for me. So, Mercedes, if you're listening, I'm in. Let's go. When I go to get gas, a gasoline is a commodity. I only care about two things. I care about price and location. I don't care about your logo, I don't care about your tagline, I don't care about the dancing cars that are doing a car show. I could care less about any of that. It is price and location. The person you're describing who cares only about hotels as a commodity, love them, they exist. We need all walks of life to make life go round. Those guys exist, and that they like, dude, stop smoking crack. All I need is a bed and a shower, and it better be clean. I don't give a shit about my birthday, don't emotional intelligent me. I'd rather check on an app and not see a person anyway, get me to my room. That person is looking for a commodity. The commodity business sucks. The margin is nothing on it. Gas, right? And you're not fighting, I need to find the best location and be the cheapest price. That's not the business I choose in. Nothing wrong with that business. Back to McDonald's. Do you want to sell one hamburger for $20 and only send 10 hamburgers a day? Or do you want to sell a thousand hamburgers for a dollar? Same end result. One may be harder to get to. There is nothing wrong with that. But generally speaking, today, when people are talking about hotels, everyone is talking about experiential, another vomit inducing world. And like I told you earlier, do you know anyone who says, Honey, I'm going on a road trip today. I'm gonna look for the most boring beige hotel ever. That's the problem, is all of them want it. They want more than just A bed, all of them, including the guy we describe who just wants a bed. No, no, no, he wants more than a bed. Where's the beer hour in the lobby? Why don't they have the waffle maker in the rock? He wants more than just a bed. Even though we may say that, at the end of the day, that's not what they want. A and B, how do you compete in a market unless you say to me, hey, I found the most perfect spa on Maine and Maine. And by the way, we'll talk about Brandon in a minute. Also, you could say, Listen, I found if you can call me to help you and you say, Listen, I found this piece of dirt, it currently has a whatever on it. I can buy it super cheap and I found a way to get it entitled for a hotel. What should I build? My answer to you may be residence in, because that makes the most sense for that corner for that market. So I'm not suggesting that the only path forward in this commodity business of shelter is ulala every time I walk into a lobby because all my senses are so intrigued. You're absolutely correct. But the problem is in a commodity world, the only competition you have is price and location. Having an angle allows you to be in a lesser location. And maybe Mike, who also just wants plain vanilla, he's like, vanilla, vanilla, vanilla. Oh, this vanilla has some chocolate sprinkles on it. I'm getting that one. And remember, how do I get your attention? The biggest problem in the world today is attention, right? Nobody can give you any attention. I'm going to get your attention online for 30 seconds, maybe. How do I get you to pick my vanilla over his vanilla and his vanilla and his vanilla and his vanilla? And my proposition to you is you can still serve vanilla, but throw a couple of sprinkles on it because that hopefully will make Mike notice you more than all the other vanilla cones. The problem then becomes if everybody adds sprinkles, now you're back to square one. And now you're like, shit, I gotta put a cherry on mine. Then everybody puts a cherry. And before you know it, and this has been the problem with big brand, what was once the commodity brand, they've all become lifestyle, and the bar keeps getting higher and higher, and the owner has to spend more money, lose more margin for the customer who still wants to pay the same price because they're after a commodity.
Nathan St Cyr:It's like you're back to your concept of trend versus trending. The sprinkles are the trend, and then everybody has a sprinkle, so now you need the cherry, and then everybody has a cherry. So, so what are the things that are going to stand that test?
Bashar Wali:What exactly? And my proposition is the thing that will stand the test of time that costs no money is back to what Mike was saying. You have two hotels of exactly the same brand. You look at the reviews at one, at the reviews at other. The only thing this guy's doing different is he's found the formula to make sure everyone who walks into that building feels a certain way, which now, if I'm looking at vanilla, vanilla, vanilla, and the sprinkles and the cherry because everyone has them. My only next option to make a valid choice is to look at the reviews and say, Oh, well, this guy says this place is epic. I'm going to this place. But see, that's the issue with commodity, right? I mean, that's the problem with gas. How many more gas stations do you need? And if a market is already saturated with commodity and you still want to penetrate that market, the only way you can penetrate it is by being the uncommodity of the commodity.
Nathan St Cyr:Yeah, no, no, totally makes sense.
Bashar Wali:By the way, food, I talk a lot about Maslow's hierarchy of need, and I say the business we're in is at the very bottom of that need, human need. It's shelter. But nobody says I want shelter now. I don't go to eat at a restaurant because I need to survive and I need food. I go to eat at a restaurant because I'm looking for an experience. I don't go buy my $8 latte because I need the caffeine. I can get caffeine at home. I go for that experience. So that's the idea. Is if if hotels become a commodity, I think we're dead. That's the issue because we're not a commodity. So you guys are looking, you guys are looking in tertiary mostly, and obviously tough competition for those, depending on what location you're in, right? Yeah. Yeah. I've got something on the Oregon coast that's obviously tertiary and seasonal. I've got something in Flagstaff, Arizona, tertiary and seasonal, palm desert, tertiary and seasonal. Flagstaff was one of our potential markets. By the way, it's really tough right now. Like you want to talk macro and even microeconomics, it's stuff out there for travel. But we're hitting bottom, I think. That means I'm not smart enough to tell you. So you should have some buying opportunity.
Nathan St Cyr:Yeah, that's what it feels like. We are unearthing a lot more opportunity right now, but it's also we are experiencing what we're experiencing, but we also are have a lot of international travelers. You're familiar with Kex, right? The hostel out of Iceland.
Bashar Wali:No. Kex K-E-X, uh Reqex. They came wanting to take over the US. They opened one in Portland, Oregon, right before the pandemic. Not exactly the right timing, and it has not gone well. And then obviously, Generator, you're familiar with, which sold for gazillion dollars, and you're familiar with freehand. And what they've done, the problem with hostels in the US is they became, as you know, postals. So they all of a sudden back to that vanilla, they all added the sprinkles and the cherry. And before you're now you're like, dude, you're selling full-on Sundays. Why are you calling it ice cream? It's a Sunday. But you're not getting rewarded for it because the word hostel creates a rate ceiling.
Nathan St Cyr:Yeah, we've done well with our hostels, but the challenge there is that you have to have volume of traveler to purchase the asset necessary in these high demand locations.
Bashar Wali:Let's focus on the investment part for you guys' sake, yeah? Because everything is very philosophical. So maybe move to more capitalist pig dollars and cents.
Michael Russell:Yeah. Can we talk about what we're working on right now and get your way in? We've talked about these commodity hotels and you said location, right? These these things that you just said, like you, you just if you really want to compete in that market, and you got to decide. But we're looking at, yes, we we might want to do that. We've got a couple of hotels that it's a package deal outside of Bozeman, Montana, about 30-minute drive away in a town called Livingston. And this is a commuter destination. People are on their way to and from Bozeman, and they're also headed to Yellowstone National Park and they break up their trip. They stay at these series of hotels. But you mentioned earlier, it's like, okay, if there's already a bunch of hotels there and there's already supply, do you really want to just add more supply to that? And really, there's there's no distinction with these hotels other than the fact that they do get really busy during the summer months. People stay there, they are packed, but they're economy-scale hotels. So, from that perspective, we're not going to turn these into any kind of unique experience. There's not really going to be any like real reason why they're going to choose our hotel over others in terms of the way it's presented with just having a brand or a flag. Of course, reviews can help. And maybe offering chocolate chip cookies or something, people will be like, oh, that's different. Maybe I'll stay there. But what if everyone starts offering the chocolate chip cookies? You talked about the sprinkles, right? So all of a sudden my mind is racing. I'm going, okay, from a value perspective, on paper, the cost per unit is low. It's a good value. We could buy these things at a very low price and predictably be able to sell it five to seven years down the road at a much higher price, provided that we go and just perform. But the question is, are we, is this where really where we want to put our bandwidth and our focus? Because it's not unique, it's not novel. There isn't really anything that we're manufacturing that is going to drive people specifically to us or just offering convenience at a reasonable price.
Bashar Wali:Great question. And there's nothing wrong with what you're describing. The question is, what do you view yourself as? Are you a core buyer? Are you a value add buyer? Or are you an opportunistic buyer? What you describe to me is a core deal. I'm buying a deal for a good price that's doing fine. It needs nothing. I'm going to do nothing to it. I can't change anything to it that would make a difference. I'm going to buy it, sit on it, and hope that the market rewards me. Because you don't control that outcome. The market does. You control the time, perhaps, right? Because you wait long enough. But as you wait, you're adding more basis to your deal, whether it's preferred return or whatever, making the exit having to be better to accommodate the return you promised. Nothing wrong with core assets. I describe that. Someone calls me and says, Hey, the four seasons Boston is on the market. Okay. I'll buy the four seasons. What can I possibly do to the four seasons to make it any different or any better? So I buy it and I say, I think I'll buy it for a good price. And I know that in five years the market would have matured more. I'm counting on the market. I have no control over the market. No one does. There's the value add buyer who says, Okay, I'm going to buy these hotels. And I think I can, with a sprinkle of renovation and a little bit of better operation, I can improve the results to not only so now core, but now I'm also going to add a little sprinkle to it. And others won't add the sprinkle, is what I'm counting on. So that by the time I'm ready to exit, my exit is going to be better than somebody who just buys it and sits on. Then there's obviously the opportunistic, you know, which this thing needs to be completely gutted. It's currently playing an economy, but if I do the work on it, I'm going to take it three levels up and my exit is going to be spectacular. Those are all sound strategies. It's just a function of what is your strategy. Generally speaking, guys like you that I come across are usually value add guys or opportunistic guys. They're not core buyers because the core buyers tend to be big institutions who want to balance their portfolio because a core buy generally is lower risk but lower return, right? So they balance their portfolio between core value add and opportunistic. If you're a core buyer, you're buying a market. The argument goes go buy bonds, go buy stocks. Like, why are you buying a core asset for someone like you whose capital is precious and whose investors don't want core investment level return, they want opportunistic investment level return. So it really is a function of who you are, who you choose to be, and who are your investors. Because ultimately you don't serve me or the guests, you serve your investor as an investor. You're serving your syndicate and your investors. So if you're promising them a 7% return, then yeah, a market deal might be interesting. But if you promise them a 15% return, then a market deal isn't going to get you a 15% return. You may be lucky and get it, but it won't happen by itself. So nothing wrong with buying a portfolio of Hamptonins that all look the same across a bunch of markets that have zero plan of doing anything. You don't manage them. They're managed by Hilton, you're going to asset manage them, but you're not going to be any better than the asset manager who managed them before. Nothing wrong with that. If that's the path you're choosing and that's the investment that you're choosing. Yeah, that's helpful. I will say, Bosangelis, as you know, I am betting long on that market. So anything in the vicinity is definitely interesting. I will say, however, a point of caution would be in that case, and I've seen it in some of my hotels that are in drive-to markets and national parks. If I were to grade the national parks pre-pandemic, I would say they were a 7 out of 10 in terms of how people viewed them. During the pandemic, they were a 90 out of 10 because they had no other choice. They couldn't go anywhere. So anything you're buying on a cap rate basis, if you're looking at the trailing, I constantly say the trailing is inflated by this euphoria revenge travel 1.0, revenge travel 2.0. We are watching drive-through market today subside meaningfully. So I would want to take those numbers and normalize them. I assume that the bases you're buying these deals for are reflect. I don't, I never think anyone is stupid. Not the buyer, not the seller, not the investor. No one is stupid. You're stupid if you think they're stupid. Why are they selling them for that low? Unless it's truly a distressed deal, a bank sale or whatever. Why are they selling them that low? And am I counting on the trailing history since the pandemic? What happened before the pandemic? So I'd be normalizing some of the results before I pull the trigger.
Michael Russell:Yeah, that's very sound advice. No, that rings true. That that resonates. And we're gonna we're gonna look at this a little more carefully under that lens, but I totally get that. I I'm curious, I want to double-click on what you just talked about. So you said that was it Los Angeles that you're zoning in on.
Bashar Wali:So the the real estate in in Bozeman, as you know, has been ridiculous. So I think by adjacency, if you bet on that trend continuing, and I do, right? Like living on the coast is becoming more and more and more expensive, and taxes and regulations and all of that. So these wild mountain states are going to be more attractive. So I'm betting on your location long term because of that, more so than the national park and the people driving by, just sort of expansion of Bozeman. Yeah, if you tell me you're 30 minutes out, I'm a betting man on that.
Michael Russell:Okay, that's helpful. That really does. Yeah, that helps. I I'm curious about your own investing interest. Where's your sweet spot, these deals? If you're looking at a size or a market or format, what gets your attention?
Bashar Wali:I'm a value add guy. I don't I'm I'm not smart enough to be opportunistic because I think that's mostly luck. And the core investments or core plus are not for me. Those are for institutions. When I go to raise money, my investors are betting on the jockey, not the horse. They don't care what the deal is. They're like, okay, if that guy is in it and he's investing, we're counting on him. He knows what he's doing in a space we're interested in and know nothing about. And that's the advantage you guys bring. Generally, for me, though, I've found that a deal that's 15 rooms is harder than, more complicated than, takes more effort than a deal that's 300 rooms. And as you know, more zeros, same amount of work, same, same, same, same, just more zeros. So I would say my sweet spot are 150 to 300 urban. I have some exceptions, like I'm doing a resort in the U.S. Virgin Islands, not what I do typically, but that's a partner. I'm not invested in it. But my sweet spot is 150 to 300 urban, primary, secondary. I'm loving on tertiaries because anyone who calls those flyover states haven't been to them recently. Kansas City, Missouri, Tulsa, Oklahoma. I'm opening a hotel in Bentonville, Arkansas. There's some amazing cities across the country that deserve the kind of things that the coasts have seen, but the big institutional snooty guys don't pay attention to them. And the bar is low because there's not a lot of supply and not a lot of cool. So what you have to do to hit that number isn't as high as you'd have. What would you have to do to stand out in New York? Good lord, right? Good luck or Miami or Los Angeles. So 150 to 300 urban, primary, secondary, tertiary, business-centric hotel with some leisure component, but like not Orlando. I don't want to be all leisure. I want to be mostly business with leisure. Incredible FB. We used to say we have a we're a hotel with a restaurant attached. No, no, no. I want a restaurant with a hotel attached. And I want to be able to give people a reason to come there beyond needing gasoline, beyond needing just the commodity, because that back to the bag example of the coach and the hermez, they'll pay you a lot more for it. I mean, that's the thing back to commodity, by the way. I think, Nate, were you pushing back? Yeah, you were pushing back on the commodity. Do you say to me, listen, you're going to, I don't know, you're going to Fort Lauderdale and you're a commodity buyer and you're going to buy a Hampton Inn. Well, in my mind, there's a price that pops in my head. No matter how great the Hampton Inn is, no matter what's happening, the price is, I don't know, $150, $120 a night. But if you say to me that's it's not a Hampton Inn, it's the same exact building, same, same, same, same, but it's the Michael Hotel. I'll say, tell me more about it. So the issue of brand and commodity is a rate ceiling. Again, think about gas. I'll drive around town all day. I know gas where I live, sadly, very expensive, is like $4 a gallon for regular. If somebody wants to get sell me gas for $450, they're never going to get my money. Impossible. Because gas is gas. But hotels aren't hotels. That's why this idea, if you say I'm a commodity, providing you a bed in Fort Laurerdale, Florida, a bed has a price in my head. If you add more to that bed, all of a sudden there is no price in my head. I don't know anything about it. So that's that issue. So I don't want to be in the commodity business. That's not the business I choose. Some people choose it and they do well with it. And I want something that's memorable, whatever that means. However, I accomplish that. Now for ego, remember, sure, I love what I do. It's my passion for me. But at the end of the day, I'm doing it on behalf of my investors. I want to make them the most money. I know how to make them. And I think having that memorable component allows you to get far more rate than you would if you said, hey, I'm just a good hotel with clean beds and comfortable and good working life for sure.
Michael Russell:That's so good. I want to ask you one more question, one last topic before we kind of wind this down, which is all the rage these days. Everyone's talking about it. But I want to know your take on how it affects hospitality, which of course is the impact of AI, robotics, technology in general. How do you feel that AI is going to affect hospitality and in what ways?
Bashar Wali:I'm a huge believer in early adopter. And I am the guy who will tell you that I believe someday we will not need to travel. We will lie in bed, put a pet set on, and we will feel the sand between our toes and we will smell the ocean air. It's coming. Maybe not in 10 or 20 or 50, but it's coming. I never say no. And we currently, because we're romantically, our generation says, Oh God, I would never want to do that, blah, blah, blah. By then, it may be the way to do it. It may be the best way to do it. Back to personalization and emotional intelligence and all of that. Technology is going to change so much because what I want technology to do is to remove all the friction out of everything and allow me now, when you come to check in, to give you a hug, basically. Not tell you to sign here and initial there and swipe here and insert there and tap there. So at the end of the day, if we use technology the right way, it will remove the obstacles, it will remove the friction. And the beauty of technology today, what excites me is the following I go to buy a latte at 9 a.m. The latte is $8. That latte should not be $8 at 2 p.m. Think about it, like it shouldn't be. So if all of a sudden now I have the systems and the technology to allow me to adjust my dynamic pricing by the minute, by the day, by the season, by the month, by the occasion. Bashar who can afford a latte at 9 o'clock wants his latte at 9 o'clock. Michael, who can't afford it, says, Well, I really want a latte, but I can't afford it. But I know that if I go at 3 p.m., the $8 latte will be $4. Guess what? Mike is happy he got his latte. Bashar is happy he got his latte. But Nate, who owns that establishment, is thrilled because he wasn't selling any lattes at 2 p.m. or 3 p.m. Now he's selling a lot of lattes at 3 p.m. Nate, who wants to sit by the window in the restaurant with his wife on Saturday at 7 p.m., is going to see a menu which pricing is completely different than the menu Mike and his wife will see sitting by the bathroom at 5 p.m. By the way, Mike shouldn't feel bad. Mike should be thrilled because Mike has wanted to come to the restaurant with his wife and he can't afford it. Well, now he can't afford it because he's willing to go at 5 p.m. on a Monday. Establishment is happy, Mike is happy, Nate's happy, everyone's happy. So I am thrilled to see us go towards removing friction. I am thrilled to see us go to dynamic pricing that pleases everyone and helps us hoteliers and owners, investors, maximize our returns to the satisfaction of everyone. And this idea of removing friction, think about it today. I go to I go to a hotel's website to book a reservations. By step 72, I'm in the zip code field and they're making me change my keyboard from alpha to numeric. Now that's laziness, that's not AI. But think about the exponential now of what can be done. There's this company called Getty's, they do design out of Chicago. Their CEO is a dear friend, and he's working on a project called Hotel of Tomorrow. And he was working on it long before AI. And the proposition goes as follows again. We talk about personalization. I like my room super cold year round. Nobody ever does it for me. Even though I'm status on a lot of hotel companies and they know me and they're I like it, they don't do it. The theory now is my phone is in my pocket. When I come off the elevator, the hallway should know that I'm in that hallway now by virtue of proximity. The lighting level should come down or up to what I like. The art on the wall should change to what I like. The scent in the hallway should be straight from what I like. And when I open my door, my room knows I'm coming. The TV should be on the channel I like, the shot, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I think technology is gonna get us there with the ultimate goal of removing friction. I shouldn't have to walk in and turn on the light and lower the thermostats and turn on the TV. It should all happen for me, right? Automatically. And then all the extra from there, by the way. Again, how I like my coffee. The coffee goes off in the morning, the TV goes on and off, la di la di la di la. So I think the the possibilities are endless. But the most exciting thing today that I'm thinking about, removing friction, I've been always excited about the internet removed friction systems or it's not AI. AI to me opens that whole dynamic pricing thing to the next level and getting to personalize the service based on what you choose to share publicly. Because right now, for me to share to do that for you, I have to go and Google you and look for you and all of that. I can have a system now completely tell me everything that exists on you publicly in the world could be printed. And a system could say, hey, Mike is checking in. We we queried his his entire history, and we think the thing you can act upon the fastest, the easiest to make him happy is he likes, I don't know, he likes bourbon. So when he checks in, have a glass of bourbon waiting at the front desk. Easy. And robotics, by the way, play a part in that because now you know you sit in a restaurant and a and an R2D2 thing can deliver your food, or I've gotten towels delivered to my room with an R2D2 thing in a hotel. So so many possibilities, but we need to make sure we use it correctly. We as an industry tend to be late adopters. I hope that we are not late adopters to AI because I think it's a game changer. Dynamic pricing, the most important to me. Excellent.
Michael Russell:I love it. Cool. Well, Bashar, this has been amazing. For our listeners who want to stay in touch, maybe learn more about your businesses or just follow your journey. What's the best place to connect with you?
Bashar Wali:I am literally everywhere. TikTok, Snapchat, whatever you want, I'm there. I would say the best place is probably LinkedIn. If you want all things hotel hospitality, I post a ton and I'm always sort of rocking the boat, as it were. And then for fun and giggles, Instagram similarly. I sort of share my travels and my muses, as I call them. What gets me sort of excited? There happens to be a lot of beautiful ladies and cars and watches and things like that. But it's all really for inspiration. At least that's what I tell my wife. So yeah, Instagram and LinkedIn. Otherwise, I am literally everywhere. Awesome.
Michael Russell:All right. Well, for our listeners, thanks so much for tuning in. This has been another episode of the Hotel Investor Playbook. We are Mike and Nate. He is Busharwali, and we are signing off. We'll catch you again next week. Aloha