Unveiling Human Trafficking: Myths and Realities

In this enlightening conversation, Alexandria Wall, Director of Human Trafficking services at Safe Harbor, discusses the complexities of human trafficking, debunking common myths and shedding light on how victims are targeted. She emphasizes the importance of community involvement, education, and the long-term support needed for victims to recover. The discussion also highlights the various forms of trafficking, including familial trafficking, and the critical role of partnerships in providing comprehensive support to victims. 

As with every episode, the group dives into the question on everyone’s mind: what can ordinary people do to make a difference? The number one way to help is by donating through the link below. Tune in to hear more practical ways you can support this extraordinary cause, and follow Safe Harbor in your socials.

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Transcript

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Hi everyone, and welcome to Ordinary People. Where we explore some of the biggest humanitarian challenges through everyday conversations. I'm Hannah and I'm Nayeli, and today we're diving into a heavy but necessary subject. Human trafficking. It's something that often feels like far away or hidden. But the truth is that it's happening all around us, and often in plain sight. Exactly. We want to talk about what human trafficking really is, who it affects. And what ordinary people like you and us can do about it. So let's start with the basics. What is human trafficking? You know. Let's I'm gonna start with, international definition. And that's why the United Nations. So they have a definition that says that human trafficking is the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harboring and reception of persons for the purpose of exploitation in the US. Human trafficking is defined, when someone recruits or transport another person, uses force or fraud, and then exploits them for sex or labor. If that is happening, that is trafficking. This exploitation can be sexual forced prostitution, but also includes forced labor, slavery and slavery like practices, and even organ removal. It's very important to highlight that when, children is involved in any of these practices, consent doesn't matter. They are considered trafficked no matter the circumstances. You know, Nayeli, even though I hear about human trafficking a lot, I feel like I don't really have a good grasp of what it really means. I've been following the trial of Sean Combs, who's a very big music artist for decades now. He is being charged with a lot of things, but one of them is sex trafficking. And there have been other high profile cases. Jeffrey Epstein was one, and he had a female who was accused of recruiting girls into his sex trafficking operation. So I feel like I get bits and pieces of what sex trafficking is, but I don't really have a good understanding of what human trafficking is. It feels like it's an invisible crime that's really hard to identify. Yeah. I'm so glad we will. Later today, we are going to have our, special guest, and she will definitely clarify for us what is considered human trafficking, because this technical definitions sometimes leave the boundaries a little bit blurry. And, some other crimes can be confused for human trafficking. One story that I watched on frontline really touched me was the story of a young teenage boy who I believe was from Guatemala, and he there was someone in his town who offered his parents and him a way for him to get to America, to get a job and send money back to his parents. And he would have the opportunity to make money and also get an education and help build a better life for himself in America. And the parents gave the deed to their home, to this person and trusted him because he was a local to get him get their son safely to America. But unfortunately, that young man became a victim of labor trafficking. He was sent to an egg farm in Ohio and had to live in deplorable, living conditions with lots of other victims. No running water, no flushing toilet, working 15 to 20 hours a day, often not allowed to go to school, isolated on a farm and giving the vast majority of his paycheck to the trafficker until his debt was paid off. And if they tried to leave, their family would be threatened. They would be threatened with losing their home, they would make threats of violence against them and the young man. And so many others were tricked and deceived into the situation of modern day slavery. It was heartbreaking for me to, to watch. That was, a part of human trafficking I didn't really know existed today. I knew it, it had existed in throughout history, but I didn't realize it was going on in America, on farms and other businesses still today. But this person was deceived by someone in their home town that the family knew this was not a stranger. It unfortunately, is not uncommon that the traffickers are people that they know they trust. It can be a family member, a partner. It can be someone from their own community. That's why sometimes it's so hard for the victim to recognize or to escape trafficking, because it's is is hard to to comprehend how a person that you trust, the person that you knew or you saw, you knew, is now using you for trafficking thing. That kept popping up over and over again was vulnerability. A lot of the victims have some vulnerable bility that the traffickers are targeting. Poverty is one major driver. But it's not the only one. There are a lot of other different types of vulnerabilities that traffickers are looking to exploit. Yeah. That's right. Like parts of the world that are in conflict or that you see displacements, they can be regions that are forcing people out that actually make those people vulnerable for human trafficking. They know what to exploit, and they use deception to trick that person into becoming a victim. But then once that person has been victimized, different types of manipulation and exploitation come into play to keep them victimized. Testimony that was very impactful for me, that a woman stay, in the situation for over a decade because her kids were her children were taken away from her, she says. There was never a lock. There was no chains. She could have walk away at any moment, but she couldn't because she was being threatened all the time that her children will be using in trafficking if she left. So she never saw she had that option to leave. She was like, I had to stay because of my children. So they they are being used to keep this woman in this situation. So it is more than the physical. Like what we could imagine that is like world of this woman or men are locked or chain know. Sometimes they are free to walk around the neighborhood. They are free to go to the store, but they know they have to come back because there is some other, things that are keeping them there. For me as a mother was very impactful to see because you'll do whatever for your kids. So she stayed in that situation for ten years because she believed that threat was real. Yeah. It's amazing how calculated the traffickers are. They know what they're doing. They are targeting people's vulnerabilities and people who feel insecure. They are isolating them away from their support system. So, it's no wonder that it's difficult for the victims to escape. Yeah. Or even realize they're being victims. You know, it's the boundaries are so blurry in this book. Feel like. No, I own something. I we heard many testimonies, especially women feel like they owed something to. But something has been done. So what has been done in the world about this? Yeah. So globally, the fight against human trafficking has been built around something they call the three P's prosecution, protection and prevention. But I know that you and I both, so, so researched a little bit about this. Talk to me a little bit about what you learn. Prosecution is about holding traffickers accountable. And this is a lot about law enforcement and the laws that every country has. So it's not the same for every country. Is it diverse among international laws, protection is more about supporting the victims. The victims will need housing, they will need therapy, they will need legal help and many more. After the rescue of they escape this situation and the third P is for prevention. Prevention is all about education, outreach and especially fix the system that is allowing trafficking to thrive. Yeah. So I know in the US we passed something called the Trafficking Victims Protection Act, which was a major step forward for us, and organizations are working really hard to train law enforcement, healthcare workers and even hotel staff to recognize signs of human trafficking. So there's been like a major marketing effort going on to raise awareness. Yeah, I, I share with Hannah that a few months ago, I was in the Orlando airport and for the first time, I noticed all the signs about human trafficking and how the victims can contact authorities and some signs that we can recognize on the victim. So I was very pleased to see that there is an active effort to educate the general public and to give the victims get to the victims. That is it's a very important part of this. Yeah. I hope we're putting those signs everywhere now. Right. So gas station bathrooms and rest area, bathrooms and bus stops and train stations. So it's it's great that there's a marketing effort going on because that helps raise awareness. And it lets victims know that, you know, they are seen and heard and, that there are options out there for them, to hopefully escape. Yes, we live in Virginia. I find out that all the hotel employees in Virginia are legally required to go through training to identify sex trafficking, and I think that's huge because hotels are a hotspot for exploitation. Maybe this is this is the perfect time to introduce our guests. Yes. We're very excited to have Alexandria Wall with us today as our special guest on this episode. Alexandria, who goes by Ali, holds a Bachelor of Arts in both communication and sociology from George Mason University and a master of Arts in Clinical Mental Health Counseling from Walden University. As Director of Human Trafficking Services at Safe Harbor, she oversees the human trafficking Survivors Program. She works with minor victims across the state of Virginia and trained service providers. Previously, she served as a human trafficking case manager for the Virginia Attorney General's Office and has developed a clinical program for minor victims of exploitation and trafficking, which is utilized in two juvenile residential facilities in the state. Her experience includes roles as an autism clinician, mental health counselor, and counselor in foster care programs. Ali was appointed by Governor Youngkin to sit on the Advisory Committee on Juvenile Justice and Prevention, and was recognized federally for Outstanding Victim protection and countering human trafficking. Ali, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. Yeah. Thank you, Ali, for accepting our invitation. There is a lot of misconceptions about what human trafficking is. My social media has flowed it with all these believes that human trafficking is just girls being kidnapped with a in a white van, in a mall, or on streets. But can you tell us really what human trafficking is and how human traffickers normally target their victims? Absolutely. So you're right. Society has definitely, you know, sent the image that human trafficking is like the movie taken, and the whole kidnapping in white vans. And it very rarely happens that way. I don't think I've actually had a case in which kidnapping was involved. I always like to say that it's a kidnapping of the mind, not a kidnapping of the body, because the number one technique that's used is manipulation. So it's much more utilized in the form of love. And a boyfriend, like we would call a boyfriend model, where someone would reach out, and say, and target somebody the very nicely at first, right, pretending that they wanted to be in a relationship, that they cared about them, maybe commenting on something that they saw on their social media and reaching out, and then they use all the things that they've learned about that victim to keep that manipulation and control over them. So it's definitely much more when we have victims, they think they are in love, they think they are in a relationship and that they are doing these things because of that relationship. So it definitely does not look how television displays it. The targeting of the victims. Do you think that is more like right now on social media? Do you think it's still on the streets, how it's like operating right now? I would definitely say that the majority is on the internet, right? Technology has definitely increased the ability to reach more victims. And and, you know, and even in a different way. So it's a lot less of street recruitment. The victims that we work with were typically recruited on a social media. And I kind of I mentioned before, traffickers will search social media platforms. There's so many right. Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and the list goes on. I don't have them all, but and they will look for posts that might say something like, I just broke up, you know, with my husband or my wife. I, I'm sad, I'm lonely. Any signs of mental health, any signs of wanting to leave a situation or place that you're in? Any signs of like abandonment or need for love? A trafficker will fill whatever role a victim needs. Sometimes that's a father role, sometimes that's the boyfriend husband role. It will depend on what that victim needs, and they will message that victim or this person and say something like, I'm so sorry to hear that you're going through that. And I've had victims tell me that their trafficker was the first person to apologize to them for the trauma that they have experienced, and that goes a long way. And so when they say, I'm so sorry to hear that you're going through whatever it is, a lot of times people are in a very vulnerable state. That's why they posted those things and they just start to pour out what's going on. Because finally somebody is listening, right? And pretending that they care and the trafficker will respond, you know, with, I'm so sorry that this is happening. I would never do these things to you. I would take better care of you. Why don't you come here? I'll keep you safe. You don't deserve those things. All the things that somebody wants to hear in a bad situation. Hearing that someone's going to remove them and take care of them and love them is is magic to their ears. Sometimes traffickers will spend time building that relationship, maybe taking them on dates, maybe buying them nice things, and put that time and effort in to that manipulation. And then all of a sudden it becomes, well, I've been spending money taking you on dates and spending money doing this and not on you. So now it's time for you to contribute. And in order for us to continue this lifestyle, we're going to have to make some money. And I've got some friends, you know, and they use lingo language like, dates, because that sounds nice, right? Going on a date. And then they will use all those things that they learned about that victim prior against them. Right. Where are you going? No one else cares about you. No one else loves you. You left because it was bad. So they used all of those things to maintain control. And they know all of their vulnerabilities that they can use against them. And so they will threaten to abandonment and they will threaten those types of things. And victims people, we all want to be loved no matter what anybody says. We want to be loved and we don't want to be abandoned. And that's probably the biggest thing. When we started to do this episode, I felt really overwhelmed by just the words human trafficking, because I feel like it's so broad. And, when I was growing up, I was used to hearing the word like, pimps or, sex trafficking. And now we've sort of encompassed a lot of different things and to, to these two words, human trafficking. But again, it's very overwhelming. Could you really explain what is human trafficking and an easy way for someone who's like me and wants to know what is what are we calling it today? What does that really mean? Right. So human trafficking is the umbrella word, right? And then you have sex trafficking underneath it and labor trafficking underneath that too. And then also and we can go into this a little bit later. Also, it's familial trafficking, which can be both labor or sex. It's just based on, you know, the family, trafficking the child, the juvenile. But a way that kind of I try to explain it to people because I could give you the federal definition, but you can Google that. The truth is that force, fraud and coercion are the three important words right in the definition. Those things, one of those things have to exist in the situation because, yes, there absolutely are people that make the choice to live this lifestyle on their own and that this and nobody is controlling it. Right? So just the exchange of sex for something of value is not trafficking. That's engaging in commercial sex, right? There has to be a third party present. So I sometimes get calls where people are like a husband is forcing his wife to have sex with her. I mean, to have sex with him all the time. And he's like, that would be sexual assault. That would be intimate partner, you know, sexual violence. So there has to be somebody profiting. So three parties, your trafficker or your pimp, like what you said is the person not in charge is in control. And then you have your victim under and then you have a buyer or a John. That's what they would call a John or a trick. That's another word for it too. So the trafficker would either be forcing or coerced, coercing their victim to engage in sex with John for something of value and that's something of value would be going to the trafficker. So to break that down even a little bit better, it would be that a victim is engaging in sex with, another person, and that person is providing the pimp with something of value drugs, cash, hotel room, anything of value does not always have to be money. And the victim is not profiting from the work she is doing. There might be times where they are given a little bit of it, or some of it that is rare. Does that help? Yes, totally. I think you say something very important. It's like it's force is not voluntarily. It's not people. Their desire to do that, they are not willing to do that. Or maybe they will at some point, but it's been a long time into this, process, as you mentioned before. Like sometimes I saw it was their boyfriend. They saw it was there. Even their husband. I don't know if they get to those degrees. It evolves into this. So when you were telling that they, the trafficker, might spend a long time grooming or convincing the victim. My first thought is like, this should be a big business, because why are they going to spend so much time? Like on what? Just one victim, you know, like it should be profitable for them in this case, is it correct? Human trafficking is definitely a business. It is the number two money making crime in the world. It makes more money than the sale of illegal weapons. Currently, the sale of drugs does make more money. I do believe that there is a high chance that that could change because you can sell a drug once. You can sell a body as many times as you want to. So absolutely, they are doing this because it is a business. They are making money from it. It's very profitable. They can pull in a lot of money every single day. So, Ali, can you tell us what does human trafficking look like in the greater Richmond area? And what does Safe Harbor do? Sure. So, there is a lot of trafficking in Virginia and definitely in the greater Richmond area, but I would also say that there's a lot of trafficking across the United States in general. Right? People think that it's just the big cities. And yes, because there's a larger population and there are more people there might be more of it occurring, but it is absolutely happening in every state and in every town that has a hotel or a motel. And in the Henrico area, it Henrico actually holds 85% of the greater Richmond regional areas hotels. A lot of people don't realize that. So the majority of the hotels are in Henrico. And so there is a there's a lot of, you know, trafficking that happens in that area. There's many different reasons. One, we are highways. The 95 runs right up and down the East coast. And that gives us, well, gives traffickers easier access to other popular trafficking circuits. So easy for transportation up and down the highways. We're also a tourist location, right. And a lot of people think that buyers are just the skeezy men that are portrayed on television. They are regular men with regular jobs, with wives and kids at home. And so if they're here on a business trip or a vacation or things like that, we also have a large, military presence in the state, which plays a role as well, large air and seaports. So there are many reasons that make us, you know, a high area. We also have a very large homeless and at risk youth population. And our kids in foster care are targeted, for sure. A kid being on the street, running away from a foster home, a home, a group home, whatever is very likely to be picked up by they need somewhere to stay. They need some something to eat, someone to take care of them. And that's a perfect victim for them. So in this area there, there is definitely a lot of trafficking. And it doesn't mean that the victims are always from Virginia either. The majority of the adult victims we work with are not from this area. They have been transported here because there's money to be made here. In terms of what Safe Harbor does. So we're a nonprofit organization that works with domestic violence, sexual assault, and human trafficking. I'm on the human trafficking side, and in terms of our human trafficking services, we run an adult comprehensive residential program, which I think is vital for recovery. And transforming victims lives because after recovery or after coming forward, then what? Right. They need help. They need guidance. There's not typically somewhere to go back to. So we run a program that allows women to stay in our house. It's a regular house and a regular neighborhood. We want them to feel normal. And we are staffed 24/7. for support because they really need it. This is a different kind of trauma than any other trauma, and we help them with getting all their documentation that probably was taken from their trafficker. We help them get all the doctor's appointments. They weren't allowed to go to. We help them with education, whether that's getting a GED, whether that's going to college, whether that's been a certificate. We help them with their financials and budgeting. We help them with, getting a job. There's parenting classes, groups, therapy, anything you can imagine that they might need to transform their lives. We provide in our program. And we also provide services for community clients. So even if you don't live in the house, we can still provide case management therapy and, other services. We also provide services for minor victims across the state of Virginia. And all of our services are free. That's great. We have a lot about the three piece, you know, prosecution, protection, prevention. You mention a lot about what safe Harbor does with their program. But from your experience, especially in the protection area, what elements are important to be taken to make a successful program? Asking this for other programs that are around the country. Like what in your experience, they could be looking at, or they can take from your experience to make their programs more successful. So what I will say is that the number one important thing to me, to having a successful program is one is always putting the victim first, like they are at the center of their treatment. Voice and choice is huge. They have had so many things controlled. So while safety is paramount because when you remove a victim from a trafficker, you remove everything. They they represented everything in their life. So you have to put that stability back into their life. They don't know how to keep themselves safe. They don't know what safe is. So it is important for us to, you know, really keep them safe and supervised as as we teach them what healthy relationships look like. Healthy communication looks like, you know, things like that. And then partnerships are huge. We would be nowhere without our partnerships. Truly, we have partnerships to help them go to school. Like with GED, we have partnerships with like driving schools to help them get a driver's license. We have partnerships with, car places that fix their cars. We have partnerships with law enforcement and victim witness and other, other organizations. Truly, that is what helps us get all the things that are needed for our clients. So finding partners who believe in the same mission and can help your victim is is everything. Because they could just sit in the house and like be with our staff all the time. But that that doesn't do that does not do anything. They have to learn how to socialize, integrate into society, overcome addiction. So the number, the amount, the more partners we have, the better, success rate we have. In terms of our victims transforming their lives, truly, the increasing partnership has increased success. That's a great segue into my next question is how can ordinary people help? So just imagine, Ali, that our listeners are police officers, teachers are they work for corporations who have money to donate or, you know, whatever you could imagine, you know, how can ordinary people help with this issue that seems so overwhelming, right. And a lot of people, a lot of people want to know, like, what can we do? How can we help? There are so many things. Obviously, I'm going to say money and donations is number one. As a nonprofit organization, we survive off of grants, but mainly off of donations from our community members. But I know that everybody doesn't have the financial means. There are other things like volunteering. We have a volunteer program where if you go through our volunteer training, you can come and help. That might mean helping stock our pantry. That might mean helping deliver items for victims that don't have cars. There's, or manning a booth at, at an event to provide education to the community. So there's different ways that you can get involved in our organization, even if it's not financially. But everybody also has a skill or a connection, right. And anything you can imagine these victims need. So if you have a skill that you can offer or a connection, whether it's, you know, you work at a gym, you know, anything that you could think of could potentially be helpful, even if you could offer, you know, a one day, like they like to do yoga, you know, like a yoga class. a one day, like they like to do yoga, you know, like a yoga class. a one day, like they like to do yoga, you know, like a yoga class. a one day, like they like to do yoga, you know, like a yoga class. a one day, like they like to do yoga, you know, like a yoga class. a one day, like they like to do yoga, you know, like a yoga class. So truly, anybody that has a connection or something that's helpful, helpful to us for them to be able to do things, but also spreading the right information. We cannot spread false news or false images of what trafficking looks like, what we say and how we describe trafficking matters because victims do not realize they are in trafficking situations. If we continue to describe it with kidnapping, white vans handcuffed in the room, that's not what it looks like. So then they do not think they're victims. We have to talk about it right. We have to spread the right education to each other, to our kids, to our families, to society. So I would say that those are the most important things. Okay. There are many times that I, I have seen people trying to just to play heroes and say, oh, if I see something in a hotel, I'm going to intervene. I'm going to get into the situation. So does does that help the victims or does help, really? And then this is, you. Know, and I it would be very a rare occasion that I would even do that. Like as an expert in this field, I'm not law enforcement. And it could be very unsafe. So if you see a situation, you should not intervene like you should not. You could get that victim hurt. Get that victim punished. That victim does not probably realize they're in that situation. So they're probably going to be like who do you think you are to begin with? And that could end badly for you could put you in danger also. So if you are concerned, you can call the national human trafficking tip line. There's also a local one for our area, for the state. The Virginia State Police does have a task force, for human trafficking. I sit on the advisory board of that, and they listen to all the tips, and they do generate cases from those tips. So it's not just something you're just, you know, leaving a voicemail or something and nothing is done about it. They will investigate those tips. Other things that if you have a business card or a phone number and let's say you're in the bathroom with her and, you know, you could pass it to her and ask her if she wants it, she can choose to throw it away or keep it so that she does know resources are out there. There are things and places that can help when you're ready, so that would be my best advice. I have been in situations where I just knew, like at a gas station when I'm getting gas in my own car, that this is that situation. I'm not going to intervene in that moment out of safety for myself and for the victim. Okay, so it's better to, dial the number. Dial. Look at your your own states. Probably. They also have offers. We are specifically talking about Virginia that they do, but I yes, I bet many of the other states have it and find that number. I maybe have it with you. I, I don't have it in my, in my phone. But now I will keep it. And in case I came across the situation, I know what to do. Tell us a little bit more about the specific partnerships that are so valuable to your work. Right? So Bon Secor Hospitals is a huge one for us. So having, sponsorship within like the medical field there always been helpful from helping us get appointments to if our clients have to go to the E.R., maybe to, putting a victim advocate if our clients have to go to the E.R., maybe to, putting a victim advocate to sit with them while they're waiting. I can always call them and ask them, like, hey, one of my clients was here. Like, I need some, you know, assistance there. Very helpful. Financially and with working with our victims in general Henrico GED is another big one. They have helped us get several of our girls GED test pass and graduations. That has been huge. Education is so big. We also work with, like mechanics of faith. They do. They help our clients with, cars, getting cars, other cars fixed and things like that. There are so many. There are so many. like the list goes on and on and on. So I hate not listening to everyone, because I know I'm going to think after, oh my gosh, this person was so, so important and I should have listed them. But when we're asked, like, I could write two page, two pages at least full of people that support our organization, we have parenting coach from Progressive, outreach that that's a huge one to help our women, you know, work towards reuniting with their children if they have a child. That's huge. We work with Healing sound and Art stone counseling that provide group therapy and therapy for our clients. So I will stop. But the list for anything a victim needs, we have figured out how to partner with somebody to get that need met. I was just going to mention that we have a previous, conversation with Ali. After we have this conversation, Me and Hannah were very surprised. On the way back home, we were very surprised of the amount of time that takes to rehabilitate a victim, truly. Because in our minds, at least in mine, I think many people out there might feel the same that do intervene. Like police intervene, rescue the victims. That was it for me. That was the end. Maybe they might need help 1 or 2 nights to spend the night somewhere. And then from there, they will go back to their families or do they will find a way to leave? Like that's how I was thinking. Things work. So I was more focused about like that part of like, you know, find the victims and, get them free out of the situation in captivity. I will have to say, that was it. So when we after we have that conversation, I was truly impressed on how much support the victims need. For how long that support needs to be. Hold. Oh, for sure. I think a lot of people think that, like, the the hard part is over, right? But it's not. I always tell my women that or men, because men absolutely are victims. Also, let me be very clear, but that it is hard to be a victim. But it's even harder to become a survivor because it takes so much, so much. You need therapy. Because a lot of them, if not every single one, has like PTSD and other mental health concerns and trauma from this intense trauma. Like there was a study done that looked at the brain scans of Holocaust survivors and the brain scans of human trafficking victims, and the damage to the brain matched. It's an extreme trauma. And so it takes a long time, and sometimes it doesn't work the first time. Right? On average, I'd say the women stay between 8 to 10 months in our residential program, and we have a transitional house, that they can live in after that's not staffed 24 seven, but that we still, you know, monitor there's case management that they get therapy, that they get, and they're still within our program and they can stay as long as they need their, while they're working, saving money, going to school, things like that. But it's not it's not a a quick thing. What whatsoever. It takes a a long time. And sometimes, like, I said, it doesn't work the first time we've brought clients back, two and three times if needed, because we relapse. And recidivism occurs in this, in this work. And so I always say to my staff, it's kind of like trying to hit the bullseye, like the first time. We definitely still hit the target. They remembered something. That's why they called back. Right? But it might take a few times before we hit the bullseye, and that's okay. Yeah, it sounds a lot to me. Like there's a lot of similarities between, the human trafficking victims and domestic abuse survivors. That is something I wasn't really aware of until we, you know, had this discussion that how difficult it is to get away from their abuser and how long it takes to recover after leaving something like that. 100%. There's definitely a lot of similarities, but also enough differences where like we learned it wasn't beneficial to mix them and programing that their needs were different. And that's one of the biggest differences, is that their needs after, leaving the situation look a lot differently. Because a lot of times while the victim is trauma bonded to their trafficker, right, the trafficker just sees them more as another body, another person that's making them money. When you're talking about domestic violence, that's like a boyfriend girlfriend, like husband wife situation and that dynamic is different in terms of the victim, the victim and the abuser. Where traffickers will threaten, you know, to find them to do all those things and sometimes they will. Right. But what we've seen more frequently is they will just replace replaceable in that intimate relationship. That target is like, is that person almost always. So that's a little bit of of the difference. But there's definitely a huge difference in the need. After we learned, we learned that, truly that there's a big, a big need. But yes, the cycle of abuse where like the I love you, I love you, but then you don't meet your quota, which is how much they have to make an A night. Then I'm going to beat you, you know, so those types of things and the level manipulation, those are very similar. No, we were when we were trying to research the subject, we find a lot of, things referring to the word shame to say like the victim feels sometimes shame. So that's why they don't go back to their family. Right? I think that will make a difference with, domestic violence, because it's like you take something wrong. The stigma. So is something you see constantly. Yes. And that's another thing I'm glad you brought that up as another difference is the social stigma that exists while there's still this stigma. Well, why didn't you leave from the domestic violence situation? Just like it's the. Why didn't you leave in the trafficking situation? The stigma is different because they still can see them as promiscuous, where that doesn't typically exist in the domestic violence cases so society can see them. And a lot of times addiction exists in, human trafficking because they might have been forced into addiction. So yes, it 100%, it is different. The social stigma. Is. Huge. So I was wondering, Ali in the Richmond area specifically, do you see any other types of human trafficking, or is it primarily sex trafficking? So we actually recently opened a male labor trafficking house. So there is definitely labor trafficking. And that can be in many different, industries, construction, sometimes, farming, especially when it comes to like the male victims that we work with, female victims, that might be more massage parlor work, nail salon work, that the nannying, that kind of thing. Cleaning crews. Because a lot it's not the hotels that are necessarily employee that are doing the labor trafficking. It's they're contracting with the company that's sending the like the housekeeping team. And that company is who is doing it. So yes, and in some industries, both can overlap. Right. Like the massage industry, strip club, places like that. It can be both sex trafficking and labor trafficking, forced to do the work, forced to engage in the sex. And another thing that people don't talk about enough, in my opinion, is familial trafficking, because it looks different. And familial trafficking is specifically the trafficking of a juvenile by a family member. And it can be a mom, a dad, a grandparent, a sibling, an aunt and uncle. It could also be someone like an auntie or an uncle that's been introduced into your family as like in that aspect. But it looks differently because it typically starts at a much younger age. It is normalized. They don't typically, have to even leave the house to be trafficked. The kids don't typically see the exchange of money, right, like you would in the boyfriend model. So there are many things that look different. And it's even harder to prosecute because with family comes more loyalty comes, more fear, comes the fear of being ripped from your family, being put in foster care so it looks differently, for sure. And it gets overlooked as more like sex, child sex abuse or things like that that don't carry the same weight, the same consequences. And then they're forced to still be in the environment where this was occurring. It's hard to imagine. And that's really difficult to imagine. Who can we educate about this? Where can we educate them? And can you talk a little bit more about how we can how communities can implement educational programs so that we can all learn a little bit more about human trafficking and what we can do to prevent it. Absolutely. Yes. I agree that I believe that education is is huge here. And the answer broadly is anybody can be trained on this and it could be beneficial. Any industry, any company, ones in particular would obviously be hotels and law enforcement does a lot of training with them. A lot of hotels, you know, cooperate and want that help so they can know what they're seeing. Uber Lyft are another big one. Uber Lyft are another big one. Airports, airport staff, school teachers sometimes school is the only safe place a kid might go to have a safe person to talk to. So counselors and teachers being educated is a big one. For sure. Truck stops, truck drivers truck stop is another big, location for trafficking. And parents and also correct age students like middle aged. You like middle school age and high school age on consent. Healthy relationships, beginning warning signs, online safety, all of those types of things. Start that conversation. The best thing I can tell a parent is to be a safe place for your child to come. If you are always saying, don't you have sex or you're going to be in trouble, or and you put fear into relationship and sexual intercourse, they're not going to come to you. When something bad happens. You're not going to feel safe too. You want your child to come to you and talk to you about what's going on. When it comes to relationship and sex, because if something bad happens, you want them to come to you. So be a safe place for your children. Yeah, that put us on the need to. Everybody should be educated. I feel like this has been at least for me. I will talk personally. An eye opening, that in research. Because before I have so many misconceptions, I saw I was, doing the right thing to protect my daughter. I thought I was having the right conversations. And now this opened a whole new, world to me. And I said, like, well, it's it's not just about, telling them, like, what? Out for a stranger? Stranger danger or the classic that we hear all the time, you know, like, you have to also be careful. Who are you in a relationship with? Who are you talking to, how you're sharing your information, and also their concerns because they might not be like, you're safe. We are not open to hear they will find somebody else who will hear in yes, and probably with a different intention in them. And it's it's, it's it's how they operate is they are they are the best are their business unfortunately. Because that's why we have all this trouble happening. Yeah. Ali, we can't thank you enough for your time. I learned so much, from meeting with you. And I hope our listeners will learn a lot to. Human trafficking looks really different in real life than I imagined. And, now I feel much more empowered to to learn more. And you've given us some great ways that we all can step in and help. And, we're very proud of the work that you do at Safe Harbor. And we can't wait to, to follow you and support your organization more. And we'll make sure that our listeners have, you know, that the links to your social media so that they can donate, they can get involved, they can volunteer. And again, just thank you so much for your time. Absolutely thank you so much for having me. I enjoyed talking to both of you. I love that this isn't, you know, your profession, so you wanted to learn it for that reason, that it was just an important topic that you thought people need to be educated on, including yourselves to fabulous moms doing great things. So thank you. And I hope we, you know, stay connected. Okay. Thank you very much. All right. So now it's time for our five things that we can all do to help. Number one start by educating yourself, learn the signs. Is someone avoid eye contact. Since fearful can speak for themselves or show signs of abuse, it could be something to report. If you see any suspicious activity, please call. The National Human Trafficking Hotline is 1-888-373-7888 or text be free at 233733. Save these numbers in your phone. You never know when you're going to need it. Great tip number two set up recurring donations to your local human trafficking nonprofit. If your employer has corporate giving initiative, add that to their list. We will put the donation link for our local Safe Harbor in the podcast note and in our socials. Number three. You can also support international and national organizations that are they are doing a great job like Polaris the international justice missions, another donate, volunteer and amplify. The message is number four advocate push for stronger laws in your area. Better victim support, more public awareness. You have the opportunity in your local community to raise awareness amongst your friends, your schools. If there is not any human trafficking education in your schools, you can talk to your school district and see if it's something that they can add. If you're a police officer or a hotel worker, it doesn't matter what your role is. There is something that you can do to help raise awareness for human trafficking in your area. And number five, number five, don't spread misinformation. It is for this part is very important. Spreading rumors exploits the real suffering of victims. We have to educate ourselves, be real helpful for the victims. Human trafficking is a very complex and heartbreaking issue, but it's not impossible to solve. Knowledge is power and compassion is even more powerful. Yes, change starts with ordinary people like you and us having compassion, not seeing thing, speaking up. That's how we make a difference. Thank you for joining us on Ordinary People. This was not an easy topic to discuss, but, those are the topics that Nayeli and I love to tackle with you all because we can break them down and make them simple enough that we can all make a difference. And so thank you for joining us today. We will have links and resources in the episode description. Stay safe. Stay tuned for and remember ordinary people can do extraordinary things.. See you next time.