Doing Outbound Right - Garry Gormley

From flipping burgers to flipping the script on outbound sales - Garry Gormley’s journey is anything but average. In this episode of WFM Unfiltered, Irina sits down with the founder of FAB Solutions to dissect what makes outbound tick, why most organisations do it so badly, and what leadership really means in the contact centre trenches.

Garry doesn’t hold back. With experience spanning thousands of calls, teams, and metrics, he pulls the curtain back on the sales strategies that work - and the ones that quietly tank performance. You’ll hear how big brands are still clinging to broken models, forcing inbound agents to fail at outbound, and relying on metrics that mean nothing to customers or teams.

From resource planning sins to the uncomfortable truths about agent burnout, this episode takes no prisoners. Irina and Garry debate the 40-hour workweek, dig into the myths of blended models, and expose how bad data is killing your sales funnel from the inside.

But it’s not just a takedown - it’s a how-to. You’ll walk away with a blueprint for real change: smarter planning, sharper customer targeting, and a more human contact centre culture. Whether you run a team, lead a sales strategy, or just want to get your agents off the hamster wheel, you’ll want to hear this one.

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Transcript

Irina: 0:20

Hi everyone. Welcome to WFM Unfiltered. This is another episode of the show with your host Irina, and with yet another amazing guest from Manchester Again, and this is

Garry: 0:34

of you.

Irina: 0:34

the less you have heard from me, because I'm not gonna get the word in because he comes with such an energy that I would gladly retire for the duration of the episode. But tell me, how are you doing today?

Garry: 0:48

I'm very good. Thank you. I've just, doing one of my, one of my own webinars just recently. So I'm like, I'm, not talked out. You're still gonna get the same level of energy. but yeah. Ready? Ready for this?

Irina: 1:00

Infinite energy. I don't know how you're ma. There must be something in the water in Manchester.

Garry: 1:05

Yeah. It's what they put in the coffee. That's what it is.

Irina: 1:09

Perfect. But before we start with the topic of outbound, something that I've personally not covered during the show, tell me a little bit about your background.

Garry: 1:19

So I like most people that work in contact centers, I started out life on the phones and it wasn't necessarily intended to be a career. it was probably a bit of a stop gap, I. Ended up lasting 20 plus years in. So I, I, after a brief stint in, save and a, jaded career in fast food with McDonald's, I found contact Center life back in the early two thousands. and I started doing all the, things that most people do, selling outbound, taking inbound calls. Being coached, being managed, working my way up through the chain. And I got a lucky break doing some work, like developing tech where I did some user acceptance testing and that kind of helped me get a little bit of a foot in, leadership and management. and the rest is history just took off from there and about seven years ago now, I had some daft decision to set up my own business, and work for myself and Fab Solutions was born, which stands for forensic about business. It's not just me saying that I'm fab, all our clients say I'm fab.

Irina: 2:34

I

Garry: 2:38

It, it's great Actually, I'm, it's contact center consultancy that we largely, focus on. So we're either working with customer service teams, sales teams, customer experience teams to help optimize the process around people, process and tech. and outbound has always been something that's very close to my heart, Good to talk about it.

Irina: 2:59

Yeah, let's go into it. So let's start with asking you, do you think that outbound is dead? I feel like when I'm scrolling through my LinkedIn, I either get people that are saying that it's completely dead, or either people that are saying how to sell from every single code that you're doing and all those tips and tricks that turn out to be completely address.

Garry: 3:21

it's always good. It's, if I ever want some engagement on my LinkedIn, I always ask that question, is outbound dead? and if for some reason my feed then goes wild. now I was sat in with a, client the other day and they were doing, what was it? I think they said 250,000 dials a day.

Irina: 3:42

Oh wow. Okay.

Garry: 3:44

if you speak to, that organization, outbound definitely isn't dead. I think maybe days of pure cold calling, are less, buoyant. the market and regulation has worked in a way that's dulled that down a little bit, but there's still a lot of people doing, cold acquisition. I was with a client the other day and they were doing like 400 and something thousand calls a week. I think it's certainly got a pulse. and it's got a very strong beat to it. So I don't think it's dead at all. I think it's, I think it's becoming more strategic and more through. but it's far from debt.

Irina: 4:26

You know what, it's very good that you're saying about being more strategic because one thing that I have noticed from purely my WFM perspective is that a lot of teams are doing a big mistake by thinking about boun. Just reaching a customer, for us, just the pure numbers matter. And if we split out bound between sales outbound and customer service follow up, okay? From one side we do want to know that the, the customer is being reached, the work is done, but from the other side. Just the fact that we've been calling through these numbers doesn't guarantee a result, but we are not really focused on sales as such. what is the time that we're doing the most sales? how do we incorporate that in the planning? So I'm curious to hear your thoughts on how do WFM can contribute to the success of outbound.

Garry: 5:20

Yeah. You know what? I, think it's a really interesting thing when we talk to, or certainly when I talk to planning people, who are. So hell bent on planning for inbound, the outbound kind of just gets forgotten. but I've not met a contact center yet that isn't making outbound calls. and I remember some of the conversations that I used to have with my planning team and they were like, you're making outbound calls when you should be taking inbound calls. I'm like, the customer wants me to call at that time, so I need to make an outbound call. so it's always been a bit of a wrestle with, with the planning teams is to say, how do we plan for. Outbound activity plan it at the right time. and I think what has become more, more of a way of working is more blended, inbounded outbound now. So we can say, start to say, right when we've got pockets of availability, let's blend some outbound calls into the mix so that we can start to be a little bit more, productive with the hours that we've got. But I, I often say. Think about the type of calls that you want to make, and the demand that is being driven from an outbound perspective. So that for, one example would be I am having to make a, an outbound call to a customer as a result of an inbound call that needs follow up. So that's obvious demand. If you like a required demand based on customer need, then you've got all of the other outbound activity that you might wanna do, and that might be. Lead generation. It might be end-to-end sales, it might be in this day and age, a more regulatory requirement like welcome calls, so to check that customer understanding has been met from the initial sale. you've got closed loop calling, you've got service recovery calls, you've got. Outbound complaint calls. You've got pre-renewal calls to make sure that customers have received their renewal documents, and then you've got the actual renewal call to make sure that a customer goes through that renewal cycle. And then if you don't. Secure a renewal call. You might have a win back call where somebody needs to be, called back to see if we can win them back into the, business. Or you might have a post renewal check call. So there's a whole host of different types of campaigns and activities we can do. But we have to be really considered when we're speaking with the planning team is to say, is the best way to do that? Where is the capacity to allow us to do that? And which calls are the priority calls that need to be handled, and how does that blend with, inbound demand,

Irina: 7:56

You know what, I'm, reflecting on what you're saying and I feel like the biggest issue that, I have faced, when it comes to outbound is that you're completely right. Everyone tends to focus on inbound, and this is where you have your KPIs and service level and abandonment rate and so on. But outbound is Okay, we need to call back these customers, if we don't have enough capacity, they'll call us back. We don't care about them, but we rarely have some metrics in which we can consider healthy outbound activities. And just to bring you back to the sales one, I started thinking about, project that I was working with while I was in A BPO. So the only metric that we were given by the. The team was about sales, like we need to achieve a certain amount of sales on the month. But my team was like, no, we need to make sure that we have called all the data. And I'm like, if we call all the data records and we don't get any sales, we're losing this project. But this is just goes to show you that. That WFM sometimes is most more focused on reachability,

Garry: 9:06

Yeah.

Irina: 9:07

on the end result being the customers that are being satisfied first contact resolution sales. And and I'm curious who, does need to drive that? Who drives? What is the KPI for healthy outbound?

Garry: 9:22

You know what I think I've always said, and and we chatted about this, is that your planning team should be your right hand person, as an operations manager, and that they both have to work well together. because the inbound demand is more often than not the priority demand. It's the stuff we've got a customer calling in and they need help. So we need to answer that call and we need to answer that call within however many seconds and whatever level of service level that we've got. That's the priority. What you've then got is to say, once we've understood that demand and we've got that profile of calls, capacity does that leave for outbound calling? and you either build that in as a line of shrinkage or a line of activity that just needs to be accounted for and planned into the schedule. But I think where you've got. The, I suppose opposition or the, obstacle in the mix is when somebody's saying, you need to be dialing a hundred percent of this list of calls, you need to be dialing at X amount of times and we need to produce X amount of, sales or results or outcomes out of it. you are not sat in with your planning team and saying, this is my inbound demand is. My outbound opportunity, how much of that outbound opportunity can I get through if I answer all this inbound in the required service level that you've set for us, us to deliver? And that's where I think you then need to go cap in hand back to the business and say, if you want me to dial a hundred percent of that list, then you need to give me X amount of more resource. and then it obvious wanted to say, right? So actually if you dialed more of that list. What's it gonna produce? Is it gonna produce more sales? Is it gonna retain more customers? Is it gonna mitigate more risk? And you have to create the business case for it.'cause otherwise being kicked in the behind for not delivering when you don't physically have the resources to be able to do that. So I think it's the responsibility lies with the operational leaders and the planning team to tell the story of what is capable and what is what is deliverable from the demand that you've got with the resources that you've got.

Irina: 11:33

what is one of the issues that I'm saying or I have experienced? when we are blending, inbound and outbound, I don't believe that we are talking about the same profile of agents or advisors. for example, completely throwing it out there. I love to speak to people with their inbound time. Freaking hate outbound, hate it with passion. And sometimes you're seeing that you're forcing people to do outbound campaigns that might not necessarily be as a follow up from the inbound, but you're forcing them to do outbound and they're just not the right fit. So how, do we work? Is that purely on recruitment that we need to place that? Do we, once we have the pool of agents, then go and ask, okay, you know what? Who is actually the best. Fit because from my perspective, it's always the struggle with, yeah, we have those, inbound resources. I have my fastest guys that can do emails. I'm basically drowning in emails, so I'm going to block them so they can get rid of more and, screw you outbound. So

Garry: 12:42

Yeah.

Irina: 12:43

we.

Garry: 12:43

And, you know what, it's, a problem I've seen and one that I've had to, manage is when you, move from an inbound team into, actually we're struggling to make inbound sales, so now we're gonna give you leads, that we want you to dial as an outbound. So you're trying to get your inbound team. That are really good at consultative selling and talking and asking questions and responding to customer needs to do a proactive outbound to say, you need to get over the gatekeeper. You need to think of your, your pattern interrupt. You need to get your opening hook, And you need to re, you need to handle all of the rejection that's coming from, no, don't bother ringing me. No. Don't bother ringing me.

Irina: 13:20

Yep.

Garry: 13:21

a very different mindset shift. So I think you've got to be really clear on the skills of each of the different roles. Where possible. the, right person doing the right role. And I would always suggest splitting out your inbound and your outbound because they are two different types of people I've never really met. an inbound person that can do outbound or an outbound person that can do inbound really well. And that's the other interesting one is outbound people. Tend to sometimes struggle with inbound. so you've gotta get recruitment mix, right? and you've gotta get your, operating model right to say, this is the number of resources that we want to do outbound, this is what we need for inbound. Let's keep those separate. And if you are gonna blend them, you really need to help. All of those agents with some really robust training. You need to help the managers with some really strong, sales coaching for both inbound and outbound. You need to have the right level of reporting that talks about disposition outcomes and short call outcomes, and how you can then coach people doing short gatekeeper objection handling style calls versus the type of rejection you might got an inbound where it's oh, I'm, not really interested, or I'm going to a competitor, which is a lot warmer and maybe a little bit easier to handle. So you've gotta decide what the model is and then prepare people to do whatever role you're asking them to do with really good training.

Irina: 14:47

And this is such brilliant advice, and one why we're ending up in so much issues. And from my perspective, what's usually happening is. When you're blending inbound and outbound, then you are getting your agents potentially taking longer time to call that record depending on your dial in, methodology. And we start ending up complaining because our objective is to go through these records, but then we see that this person is stalling. They're sitting there on a HT, then we end up complaining to their team, is their team leads. Go give feedback. Then this agent. Actually gets burnout because they freaking hate it. They hate it.

Garry: 15:29

they go on a break when they're scheduled to be doing outbound.

Irina: 15:32

Yes. And that's, and I was thinking about it the other day actually, I got an outbound, like I was the prospect and they tried their best. I'll give them that. But I'm the worst type of prospect on the world because I'm gonna give you shit that you'll see it in my voice that I will increasingly get annoyed. And I was thinking, you know what? It takes such a freaking mindset to not be bothered by somebody potentially even starting to be rude with you on the phone and to have that energy because it does come with completely different energy to call the next. Person to get rejected again. Next one, and get the rejection. And I'm wondering, like from your perspective, how do you think we can help from WFM? Because we're coming with all the restrictions. do it, now. Do it now. Do it now. Why are you not doing it? But then they're getting rejection, when they have those kind of, deliverables to follow.

Garry: 16:31

You know what? I think there's, I had an interesting conversation the other day with, team at I******, and they were talking about agent burnout indicators and they were thinking about it from a, an inbound perspective to say, agents had, I. X amount of complaint calls. They've had X amount of vulnerable customers. They've spent so long on a call and they've had X amount of back-to-back calls. That's gonna trigger, an element of burnout. and I think the same can be said with, to say, if you are on a particularly tricky campaign and you are experiencing no after, no, after, no, then actually that's gonna drive a little bit of burnout and it's gonna drive some negativity. So it might be that you start to think about. a WFN team and a real time team is to say, how do we respond to that and how do we use those disposition outcomes? How do we use those, those call outcomes to be able to say to an agent, right? Listen, I can see that you have 30 no's. What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna actually send a note to your, manager. Because that might mean that they need coaching, some training. It might mean that they just need to break a cycle, for, or that something's not actually working in their pitch. So a manager or a leader or a coach should go and sit down with them and maybe plug in and have a lesson. Or maybe they just need to go for a short break, refocus, and then get back on it. And this is especially important when you're looking at, The, debt sector, you're doing a lot of outbound calls and you're chasing people for debt. and you're probably not getting a, Hey, thanks very much for ringing me to chase for that, money that I owe you. Here's, all the cash that I want to give you. You're not getting that call. you're getting people probably trying to avoid you. There's probably arguing about the debt that in the first place that they're really struggling to, to say that they can afford to make any payment. If you make me make this payment, I can't eat this week. If you think about all of those types of engagements that outbound people are having to experience, workforce planning and real time, need to be able to respond really well to those, to be able to either send a trigger, send a notice, or just send somebody on a break and just help avoid that, that agent becoming vulnerable and burnt out.

Irina: 18:50

This is great advice and I think we're not talking about it enough. And another problem that I'm seeing certainly from potentially even management perspective, definitely from WFM perspective is, when we're focused on. Productivity rather than the outcome. So we are tend to be thinking, okay, you have, let's say eight hour shift

Garry: 19:14

Yep.

Irina: 19:14

you're supposed to be doing outbound, but before thinking, okay, you know what, actually this agent is overproducing. They're selling like, I don't know what, like they're made from goat and every single coat is hit after hit. We're not. Looking for, benefiting them in certain way of, oh, okay. They need an extra break because then we're starting to think, but we are paying them. That's exactly their job. They're receiving their salary and they're gonna get a bonus. So why do we grab them an extra job? Because this is going to decrease the morale of the other guys. And I'm thinking, yeah, but if you compare results. Why wouldn't you focus on what is this person achieving versus that pure numbers that you're putting on the contract? And I'm thinking about these things a lot in terms of also durations, why you are so inclined to pay for somebody for 40 hours when you know that they can only be productive for, let's say 30 hours, and they're completely not interested. The other 10. Rather than have them fully focused for 30 hours happy that they're only working 30 hours and doing even more during that time. So I'm wondering how do, we work with that? When you see some, over performers? Do we grant something conditionally? From our perspective,

Garry: 20:34

You raise a really interesting point because they might be contracted to 37, they might be contracted to 42 hours. if they're producing that result in fewer hours, then you wanna know, and you wanna understand exactly what they're doing, and get everybody else to replicate that. but I think there can be some flexibility in that. And I've seen people. Do, exercise, particularly in, in outbound, because if, because there's not as much of, an inbound reliance on you being there to, take the call, you can be a little bit more flexible with outbound to say, actually, if you hit your numbers, you can finish early on a Friday or you can take an extended lunch. and I don't think that there's anything wrong with rewarding those behaviors and the WFM team getting involved in helping plan that in, to, kind. To support the wider team and the wider morale. I suppose there, there is a fair point to be made just to say, right? if that, person's getting an extra half an hour, on the lunch or an early finish on a Friday, why can't I have that? You have to be fair to people, but if you attach it to gamification, reward, performance, bonuses, then I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And I think it's, I think it's refreshing to, to hear planners come out and suggest those things rather than the reverse, which usually happens is say, to get back on the phone, you need to get back into ready, you need to dial the next record. so I think it, it's nice when the, ops and the planning team come together. To think creatively about how they can maintain productivity and employ morale and employee engagement.'cause I think sometimes planning can be a detractor from engagement because of, they're often seen as the no police to say, I can't have that holiday, I can't have that break, I can't move this here, I can't have that shift. so it's nice for them to get the, more pleasant end of, of the reward.

Irina: 22:36

I'm thinking that the big issue is also personalities, because w FMRs tend to be very introverted type of people, and everyone that's a sales personality is more extroverted. They're more in your face. They're more. Cloud it, they can be more demanding. So when we get into that kind of a way of working, we're seen as It doesn't work for us. But on the other hand, we are very scared of, okay, if we're making an exception for you, how do I justify to all the other 5,000, 200 agents that would like the same thing? And that's why I'm starting to thinking, shall we completely refocus the way that we're working And. Work based on value rather than maybe even ours in that perspective. Because for me, and probably for you, it's the same having my own business. If you're bringing me results work whatev whenever you want. Why would I force you to basically burn a record when you know that nobody's gonna pick up? I you. I know that I'm going to irritate you, I'm going to exhaust you. You're not gonna put more effort then. You feel happy

Garry: 23:50

can do it really tactically as well. typically I see when I'm looking at, schedules and when I'm looking at connection rates between, outbound calls, is the connection rate tends to drop between. If you are doing, Outbound. From a sales point of view, it tends to drop between probably nine and 10. 12 till one, one till two. It might drop again, fi five till six, and then it might pick up again then between seven and nine, people are at home. Whether people want to be rang at that time is another question. but you can start to reward people in those areas where you know that your connection rates are gonna be lower. So actually you burn through. Fewer records, and you can start to schedule people in, in different ways and be a bit creative about the result that you're gonna get. And I think demonstrating that value, is a key part, being innovative in, in how you approach the shift, get the best result. I think is a really interesting way, rather than just hanging a hat on, say, you did your 250 dials for the day, or you did your talk time for the day. I hate people who, incentivize talk time. I think it's, it's not a necessarily a, an indicator of productivity.'cause you could be talking absolute rubbish. and it drives some. Poor behaviors where people sometimes I, I've seen in my career, lots of people dial in their own mobiles. Lots of people dial in the talking clock. so people will do things to avoid speaking to, to, to customers. it's, it's strange what people do sometimes. but yeah, I, think that a focus on the value and the contribution is a really different way of approaching

Irina: 25:37

And you know what? I, have seen that so many times. The teams are not prioritizing or looking into demographics. So for example, you know that there is between the age of whatever is 70 and 80, they're gonna pick you up at certain point. Then the people that are between 20 and 40 and we're focused on these are the records, they're all the same, let's call them whenever available when you know that definitely there is difference between different groups of people.

Garry: 26:09

Hundred percent. I'm a big fan of applying a segmented contact strategy to any dialer plan is to say, how do we make sure that, based on age of the record, based on the propensity for it to convert, potentially, if you've got a, really good, propensity model, that can be really useful. the. The, speed of dialing. So actually again, if, you've got APIs into your, CRM that feeds your, dialer, let's get those records straight up to the top and let's try and dial it within a minute. Because we know that people who we speak to earlier in the, process, likely to convert. at of the lead, the postcode of the area, the time of day, all of that stuff, could be really value. And, again, when you're looking at dialing existing customers, so not just about new business, I. You can also start to think about actually what value does that customer bring? So they somebody who pays us tens of thousands pounds a year, or are they some people that just do a one-off purchase per year? How do we want to proactively contact those people, differently to demonstrate the value and to drive the loyalty and to protect those customers that potentially if they were to leave, they'd have a bigger impact on the bottom line than perhaps somebody who just purchases something once a year.

Irina: 27:38

So from your perspective, say for example, that you are seeing the, age of this lead and, somebody hasn't ordered whatever for five months. Is there a time the age from which you should basically remove those leads from your contact list and not attempt it at all? Or you need to leave all single records there?

Garry: 27:59

I think it's, up to. The operational team, and it's up to the marketing team to decide that. one of the things that I've worked on in the past is, campaigns. So when a client, maybe bought something once a year ago, two years ago, and hasn't bought since, they're still in your CRM. and as, as long as there is, a legitimate, interest, and as long as regulations from a GDPR perspective are all opt in, then. There is a legitimate reason that you could call that customer. and actually it just might be that they've forgotten that you exist. a friendly reminder say, Hey, you bought this from us a year ago. Do you want to order it again or have, your circumstances changed or is there any, change your business? Are you no longer a business? Have you closed down? Then you can start to take it out of your, your database. You can update the CRM and it becomes cleansed. and you've got a real kind of robust, data set then. So I think these, as long as it falls in line with the, regulator requirements and the privacy, laws, you could keep it in there for as long as is appropriate really, I suppose is the answer to that question.

Irina: 29:18

That's a great one. And maybe before we wrap up the conversation,'cause you're saying so many important and actionable things that I really, enjoy, but, one thing that comes as a question every single time is. How many times do we call the record before we close it and we stop harassing that customer? And I can tell you my personal story of one year I've been harassed by one company and every single time. And mind you sometimes. three, four times a week on Saturdays, nine 10 in the evening for one year. Every single time I'm telling them, please put me to do not call me list, block my number. I won't buy, I won't become a customer. And I ended up complaining on LinkedIn and miraculously my number was blocked. I ended up sending them mails, logging complaints. Nothing worked. LinkedIn always works. My question is, how many times do we attempt a customer before it gets too much and they start presenting the brand?

Garry: 30:23

You know what I, I think contact centers who do outbound Island should be really careful that they don't turn into nuisance calling providers because the fines from. For that is anything up to about half a million pounds. it can be an expensive task doing that. And I've seen examples where people have, are dialing them hundreds of times and it'd been incessant and it's, who's gonna buy something after you've tried ringing them a hundred times? If they weren't gonna buy after 10, they're probably not gonna buy after another 110. so I think Relative to each campaign. and there's nuances based on whether it's regulatory or whether it's, something to do with, an acquisition. But I think it's one of those. Questions, which, how long is a piece of string? and I like to say probably, say maybe maximum of 10 attempts in any kinda like rolling 30 or 60 day period. then having clear rest strategies, data and deciding whether or not it's right to call that data, after a certain amount of time. But, I think having a clear rest strategy on your data is just as important as how often you dial that, data to begin with.

Irina: 31:44

and this is such a great point because often we're saying, okay, this customer needs to be or prospect, whatever it needs to be called, let's say three times, five times. But sometimes we're ending up calling those five times in the span of one hour, and then you're ending up annoying that person and harassing them, and it makes absolutely no sense. So having rest between the time that you're calling is so important. it ultimately. It is dependent on us as well. How, do we, and what kind of a dialer are we using?

Garry: 32:15

a hundred

Irina: 32:16

I think we're at time. Oh, that was such a

Garry: 32:18

the, timings that you set between your dispositions?

Irina: 32:21

So I think we're having a little bit of internet issues. How is the connection on your end?

Garry: 32:27

Oh, you know what, it stopped a little bit then it paused a bit. So I dunno if I've.

Irina: 32:33

no, you didn't. But we're gonna end up, edit this part also. Don't worry. So we'll edit it out. But thank you so much for this conversation. Any last advice and where can people find you?

Garry: 32:47

so last advice for anybody that is thinking about doing a outbound dial campaign is understand the reason why you're making those calls. be really clear on the data set train your people, to. Do what you expect the outcome for that campaign to deliver. so make sure they've got the right scripts, make sure they've got the right, training. Make sure they're getting the right coaching, and make sure you're just structuring the campaign as a campaign and thinking about it. It's end to end journey. And make sure that you're linking in with your planning team when you're doing it, because that's the all important part. people can find me, they can connect with me on LinkedIn, Garry Gomley, they can follow, fab Solutions, through LinkedIn. I'm usually found lighter in there once or twice a day, so if you need me, you can always send me a a, direct message.

Irina: 33:38

Perfect. Thank you so much Garry. It was absolute pleasure. And

Garry: 33:42

lovely conversation. Thanks Irina.

Irina: 33:43

likewise and thank for all our listeners and getting to meet you Garry It

Garry: 33:48

Hey,

Irina: 33:49

conversation.

Garry: 33:51

brilliant. Take care. Take.