An N of 1 with Chloe Hamman

Chloe Hamman is the Senior Director of Product People Science at Culture Amp - a leading Employee Experience company. She joined the company as employee 23 and they are now well over a thousand so she brings first hand experience leading in a fast-growth start-up. Chloe's background is in organisational psychology with over 15 years expertise in organisational behaviour and culture. In her current role she leads a growing practice of product people scientists and data scientists to bring in behavioural science and research to inform product innovation.

🔹 Follow us on LinkedIn: besci-io

🔸 Join our BeSci community on Slack: besciio-public.slack.com

♦️ Enhance your career and knowledge of applied behavioral science with our courses: learnappliedbesci.com

Transcript

 So my fireside chat this week is with Chloe, uh, who's a good friend of mine. We've known each other a long time. She's a brand new baby. Things are wonderful in her world. We're going to talk about how she got into behavioral science. So how are you?  I am good. Thank you. Just, uh, I was, I was telling you earlier, it's my nanny's third day.

So I'm a new mom as of a year ago and just returning back to work, but feeling pretty good. Feeling pretty good and pretty sorry about it. If the baby cries, just go and I will tap dance and people will laugh at me. Excellent, excellent. Hilarious. Baby crying is much more important than talking to my wallet.

So, you're a fellow psych person.  At the end of the, at the beginning, you and I are of an age, right? I think we both graduated in sort of 2004, 2005 ish. Yeah. Yeah. Right ish.  Similar vintage. Similar vintage. Did you know, like, when did you know Psyche? Like, were you one of these kids who were like, I'm six and I know I'm going to be in psych or were you, did it come a little later for you?

It came a bit later. So I had my uncle, he is a research psychologist. So I kind of knew  psychology through what he would do. And he was sort of a classic, tell me your feelings, tell me, why do you think that? And I was like, I don't, I feel uncomfortable. I don't, I don't know. Um, but I did, I was aware of psychology and then I didn't really discover it until I I was going to be a Marine biologist or an artist. 

I was going to be biologist too. Yeah. Barely. This is where applied behavioral scientists started, but it's not, it's not shocking. Biology is a, you know, it's a behavioral science. It's a science. And I'm super fascinated in like, especially creatures of the ocean. I was like, but they do have, why do they do that?

And I quite like being in a lab and I like research and I like experiments. My dad's a chemical engineer. So I grew up with biologists.  Chemical experiments happening in our garage. So I just kind of, I was very comfortable with kind of more that, you know, what you think of when you think of a scientist. 

So it's a wait when, when, so you're, you're offered, you went to Victoria, right? I went to Victoria Union, Wellington. Uh, I enrolled in a science degree and I started studying biology and loved it. I did psychology out of interest. It was like, you could take like two elective papers. And so I did, uh, psychology and I did a study on the Antarctic.

Okay. Which was geology. Um, I love my psychology paper, like this is fascinating. And I enjoyed biology, but I remember it was like a Friday night and I was sitting in the lab. All my friends were out partying as they are when you're a uni student. And I was alone in the dark lab on like the sixth floor of the uni building. 

And I just imagined my future. Being in a lab alone. And I was like, I can't do this. I'm a people person that, so  I quit pretty much the next week and enrolled kind of switched. And, um, it was luckily psychology was still a science, still under science. So I could just cross credit and then move full time into psychology.

So, so you're like sitting in a lab by petting, going like, this cannot be my life and was just like, I think I wanted to talk to all the people in the lab and they were not. necessarily extroverted folks who wanted to talk back to me.  I have pictures of young Chloe, like sort of, you know, trying to engage the, I love this.

How's your petri dish going Nothing. Nothing. Was this, was this like freshman year or you got fairly far in or? I was only in my first year. Is that freshman year in the state? So your first year of uni. Got it. So you started pretty early. Pretty early. First I did one year of biology and then I switched to psychology by my second year.

So I was pretty close, but I was did clinical psych. So I was studying clinical psychology. Um, and I thought that's what I wanted to do. And similar thing got sort of two or three years in. And I was like, uh,  I don't know about this. What made you have that? What do you remember? What made you have that,  uh, moment?

Um, I think it was,  Thinking about chatting to someone that they do these career guidance, and they had someone who came along and spoke about their day. And they said, and it was abnormal psychology and criminal psychology.  And so I found learning about it super fascinating. And then I try to imagine my future self, having these really intense conversations. 

Every day. And I'm quite a lighthearted,  pretty easygoing person. And I get really upset when there's things not going well in people's lives. I think most people do, but I, I was like, I can't do this. I'm just, I'm just not, there has to be, and positive psychology wasn't necessarily a thing  yet. So it was all very much the defective model.

You're broken.  Until you're fixed type of approach. Um, but I was so far in psychology. I didn't really know what to do. So I enjoyed neuroscience. I started doing more neuroscience. I thought I will, at least I can figure out how the brain works. That's pretty interesting. And that's kind of biology. And then I picked up a business degree.

You're about anybody's bad day in neuroscience. Exactly. I can just kind of almost be in a lab, but it's kind of people related. Um, and then I thought, Oh, well, you know, HR seems like something that I might like. So why don't I do a business degree? So then I changed again and picked up a business degree, um, and started studying management and HR.

And, and  faculty was super receptive and supportive. Faculty was going, why are you abandoning biology and clinical psychology? You know, where are your mentors and your teachers in this? Yeah, it was interesting. The business school was great. They said you have to get to do what you want to do. You need to work really hard for a semester and show us that your grades are good enough to do a co joint.

Um, I worked really hard and I managed I had managed to keep pretty good grades along that and I had a pretty good mentor. In the, um, cognitive psych team. And then one I found at the business school. Um, and so she was starting to do something in the org psych space, but it wasn't a field yet. And I sort of spoke to, I said, you know, I really like psychology, but I feel like I want to work with people who I want to work on motivation and I want to work on kind of changing behaviors.

And I want to work on people, helping them to enjoy their work, but I haven't found what that is. And she was like, stick with this. It'll come. And I was like, okay, we'll make it happen. And we'll make it happen. And the two of them  collaborated with students together before, or you were the sort of trailblazer of, of this.

I wasn't, I wasn't super common what I was doing. Um, and I actually got to the end of my degree and, I didn't really have another place to go. There wasn't an org psych program at the university. So I, and I just, okay, I guess I'll leave university and I'll wait because I wanted to study more.  So I left and went into, I can talk about first jobs, but I did, you know, a variety of jobs and I went back to university six years later with.

Diane Gardner, who was the mentor early on and at a different university and studied the org psych program. So I had to wait, I think it was five or six years. And then, um, it was set up. Got to do it again. What did you do? So what about the years between sort of Victoria and Massey? Right. So you graduate undergrad, you've, you've got this interesting interdisciplinary combination of science and business at HR.

Um, there wasn't necessarily an obvious place, you know, now I think we had, uh,  Pete Judo on here recently, and I was talking with him about,  you know, when he came out of school, there were You know, these were, these were real things. When you and I came out of school, people were like, what's wrong with you?

What is this thing? Why do you, and people would say to me, why are you studying those two things? Like, you know, science and business, they were like, I don't understand, you need to choose.  And I was like, interested. You know, I was like, no, there's a way I'll make it work. So I went and worked, um, help.

Actually it was, it's pretty aligned. Actually, it was helping people who are unemployed find work. So it was. A little bit had elements of clinical psych in there when you were dealing with people who are perhaps not at the best stages of their life, unemployed, and, you know, perhaps not having huge amounts of confidence, but helping them set goals, helping them understand what they're motivated in the workplace.

Um, and I liked that, but it felt too, I was sitting with people every day, reliving that moment of those like deep conversations. I did that for a year. And then, um, I discovered psychometrics.  And I had a company in Brisbane sort of reach out to me and say, would you want to come be our test admin person?

Um, and so I worked with a company called Chandler Cloud in Australia, which is they at that stage were hiring IO Sykes because Australia was a little more ahead on the university program. And I didn't know what an IO psych was. I worked underneath a guru psychologist. He was pretty close to retirement.

Um, great rule breaker. Cause he let me do so many, like taught me so many things. He was like, you technically should have a master's for this, but I'm just going to let you like, go ahead and do this and learn how to do this. So I got great exposure to psychometric testing and what you're supposed to do.

And then at that point I was like, right, this is what I'm going to do.  And so I, I quit, of course, and went traveling around the world for 14 months, as you do when you find your kind of thing you want to do. I was like, great, I'm going to go and switch off and explore the world. So I did that for 14 months.

Um,  I did lots of random jobs. Like I was working as a cook in Alaska. I was a lifeguard in the States, uh, volunteered in Thailand. Um, yeah. A bunch of fun things. And then I think I was in China and I got cold and I was lying on the grass in a park. And I was like,  I think it's time to go home. Um, so enrolled in the master's class, tracked down some mentors.

And then it was my second round of uni. Um, and one of the things I had  learned when I went into consulting, like, well, I had a great guru psychologist who pretty much to kind of let me do what I want. And I'd wear. Jandals or do you call them flip flops? Like those kind of beach shoes.  Jandals, I would wear them to work meetings and then I would quickly, I'd wear like, you know, a suit that you had to wear.

I'd wear my Jandals and I quickly switch into my like heels or whatever I needed. I hated wearing suits, like hated it so much. And that was part of my reason of going around the world. I was like, okay, I've, I love the work. I don't like the uniform. Let me go spend a year and a bit in yoga pants and then I will be ready to wear a suit. 

Let me get this, get this. And this was still fairly one on one sort of psychometric testing, or are you doing more programmatic psychometric testing? We did a little bit of programmatic stuff. Uh, it was more one on one. So we did a little bit of government where you put through,  some of it was you do testing of like 50 to 100 people in like group online.

Online settings were just coming in. Um, but it was still, you'd bring people into these large testing centers. Uh, but most of the staff was one or two candidates at a time. And then you do debriefs one on one debriefs, um, with both the candidate and then the client. So yeah, I was working a lot with HR teams debriefing on, you know, potential hires or development opportunities.

Well, in getting a lot of, you know, that sort of coaching, one of the things that we hear we've heard over, over the, over the, you know, course of the firesides is, you know, that sort of, a lot of people get some one on one coaching experience somewhere in there, right? That's pretty much where I started doing, like, you know, having coaching as one of the things you do, it just sort of happened.

And I actually started earlier when I was doing the career guidance. Right. That was essentially coaching, helping people set goals, helping them like understand what's important, helping them work through their limitations and their obstacles that they might face, and then giving them like a plan. And in that case, it was literally a reason to get out of bed. 

Um, which became easier later on. Cause he's normally dealing with quite motivated people, but it was, it was good practice. That's amazing. And so, so then you travel the world and then you come back and IO psych feels natural, feels like. This is the right place to go. Like, where does that sort of enter for you?

Yeah, definitely. I went back to uni, um, went back to Massey, studied IO psych. I felt like I was with my people. I felt like really good. It was an applied,  I didn't know the difference between, you know, like your more applied kind of courses and your more theoretical courses. This was a specifically labeled and applied  masters, um, in terms of the way they taught the course.

They had practitioners who worked in businesses, teaching, um, The masters rather than research, uh, like academics or researchers, both obviously are valuable, but this was slightly more weighted towards the applied. And I was like, ah, this is great. This is how this is what it actually looks like in a business.

And they would give brink and most of it was case studies and ethics. And I was like, oh, this is great. So I love, I've really loved it. Um, and I felt like, okay, this is HR wasn't quite right for me. Um, I had a couple of stints. I think the  At the time, HR was pretty limited to very rule bound structure, set policies in place, not my strong point.

Um, I was like a scientist wanting to test everything and break things and be like, I think we should do it this way. Why don't we test this? And it was like, compliance, you can't test that. You know, we need evidence that it works. And I'm like, This is how we get evidence that it works. I know it was like, and I remember getting, um, doing a lot of like the psychometric testing, you do your licenses and you get profiled in a room and it was HR people.

And I was profiled in a room of like 20 HR people. And they were calling out, they were doing the, you know, stories to tell you, like to bring to light the characteristics. And one of the characteristics of the assessment was someone who comes up with, It was like artistic comes up with wild ideas and was often seen as like a little bit odd in the workplace.

I scored like in the 99th percentile on that trait. And I was the only one in the room. And I was sitting there going, Oh, okay.  I think we hear that a lot. There is a little bit of an island of misfit toys version of applied behavioral science, particularly, you know,  the generation thing I think comes in, you know, people who people who are there at those, you know, Early days, that's sort of like, let's call it 2000 to 2010 ish period, right?

You graduated in four, five, six. Like, there's a little bit of a sense that you have to be a little bit odd because this is, you know, you're doing a thing that nobody else is doing and so everybody else is kind of looking at you going  Well, that's weird. What? It is weird. Yes. I was like the strange person.

So, so the IO folks felt  familiar to you, right? Yeah, it felt more familiar. It felt more enjoyable. It felt more natural to me, I guess, in terms of like this, at least with through the lens of psychology, I felt like IO Psych was the psychology for me. If I, if I kind of put that, the life psychology lens or limit on it, um, IO Psych felt, felt right.

and I enjoyed it.  Psychometrics. I did a bit more consulting. I still hated wearing suits. I realized that consulting in suits just wasn't for me, so I I did another round of quitting and going home and surfing and writing a dissertation. And I was like, right back to the yoga pants. What can I do? And then, um, for my next role, I thought, you know, well, ironically, I'd studied workplace values in my masters.

Um, and how it should influence your choices. And I hadn't applied it to myself. I had just said, I don't like wearing suits. My criteria for my next job is that I can wear jeans to the interview. I kid you not. That was it. This is it. I don't care. I don't care. Sort of vaguely IO related and I can like vaguely IO related.

So I, I actually joined a marketing team because it was a culture. It was a culture, internal culture. It's a, this is like probably where my career actually. Has a changing point and I start to figure out this kind of design culture behavior kind of elements, although I didn't realize at the time, um, but I joined a marketing team.

They were looking for someone who could help change their culture behaviors to align better with the external brand that they were promising tourism holdings tourism holdings. Yeah. Um, so I'm jumping ahead at probably, but I was like,  so tell me about joining this. So,  uh, when you interviewed for it, you were like,  Yes, this makes total sense.

And they looked at you and said, yes, this makes total sense. Or was there a little bit more jeans as I was walking out,  jeans, the interview. And I, on the day I had like, you know, my old suits and I had my pair of jeans and I was like, I'm going to wear my jeans. And I was like, this is what you said, Chloe walked up the stairs and my soon to be manager said, ah, I love that you were in jeans.

And I was like, yes, this is my place. Um, And she had never hired a role like this before. And I just spoke to her and I said, well, you know, this is culture. Like from what I know, culture more sits in HR. And she's like, yeah, but you know, the challenges at that time with HR, not necessarily focusing on culture at the time, even though now it seems so strange.

HR was admin and policy driven. Um, she said, I want someone who understands people.  Wants to help us change the culture and, you know, gets kind of what I'm trying to do. And I was like, sign me up, I'll give it a go.  Um, so I actually joined the marketing team. And then over the course of the time, I turned more into an OD role, uh, which is now what you know, as an organizational development role, you sort of got, you're looking at the culture and you're like, well, you can't really, Look at culture and isolation.

You have to look at the behaviors and then you have to look at other than the leadership. And then you look at the structure and then you look at kind of what the whole design of the organization. So it sort of grew into that type of role, which is again, I didn't know it was OD at the time. Um,  sort of fell into it and you just find yourself doing jobs and you're like, Oh, that's right.

It was an OD role in the end. Yes. You can lose, you label it afterwards. Uh, afterwards you're like hindsight is great. It was hindsight. It was OD.  Tell me what this is. So. What does the day look like in this period as you're like coming to, you know, a lot of people have aspired to culture like roles but have no idea what you would do as a steward of culture.

So, so what are you sort of showing up and doing at tourism holdings? Yeah, so I would show up. I would do, I did internal comms as well. Um, which is actually such a critical part of  culture in terms of like, if you think about like one of the artifacts is getting the comms right. Um, and sometimes internal comms isn't. 

I don't know where it should go, but I was in internal comms and cause I had a marketing person to guide me, the language was pretty well crafted and it was really thoughtful. And it was like, I had a marketing person to say, well, no, run it almost like a campaign. And I was like, ah, okay, that's really interesting.

Rather than just like shoot out a bunch of stuff. And I started learning about, you know, okay, comms and attention. So I would do some comms in terms of what was happening and it was paying attention to. Some of the, the CEO is very deliberate in what he was trying to achieve as well. And he was bringing in design thinking at the same time.

Um,  and he was quite specific and I want to have people thinking more creatively and outside of the box. And so we would,  and trying to challenge their ways of thinking in terms of not just doing stuff like they always have done. So I would, every comms that would come out, I'd try to think of ways to sort of put that in.

And then the other part was, um,  Say looking at leadership. So running, like thinking about designing a leadership program that would help leaders and some, like examples of projects I'd run, we'd have three sixes, which if anyone who doesn't know, it's where you get feedback from your peers, your manager, your direct reports, and yourself at the time, three sixes were almost like the train wreck of feedback.

So you would get like the score and you'd be like, you got a 2. 3  from your peers. You are now at 2. 3. When you should be a four. And I remember looking at this going, this is horrific. Like, what, what, what are you supposed to do? What is so much? And they just got me to three. I was like, I don't even, and they would say, well, can you coach people, coach the leaders who have got this feedback?

And I was like, I can't coach to that. I don't, it's, it's got nothing in it. And it just, it's not right. So I said, can I, can you let me redesign the entire feedback process? And so I would pull things apart that had been done was mostly what I would do. So I would, and I think a lot of ideas that you've always got to be challenging.

Mods. Um, and I would, so I just redesigned feedback and made it, um, much more,  I did, but a bucketed approach. So I said, okay, well give me some, here's a list of options. Tell me what have these things fit in my strengths and tell me what have these things fit in my opportunities. And I don't need a score.

You just need to know. Okay. Okay, these are some things I need to work on these some things I'm good at and you can coach to that and people can do something with that feedback. So you couldn't rank the leaders on that data, but I said to the leadership team, I was like, what's more important, like developing leaders or getting a ranking that you can use?

And they were like, Oh,  probably the first one. So. I like, I like 2011 Chloe. She's okay. She's way overconfident.  You might be unsurprised to find that's another theme that we see here on the fireside is that, you know, There might be a streak of because you have to I mean there has to be a little bit of sort of  foolish idealism in those early days. 

There's no path and there's like I don't know what the right answer is but I know this isn't how it should be done. At least let me have a go trying to figure out a different way. And then you know you realize oh there's limitations but that's that's the kind of stuff I would do. So I would as and I think OD  Yeah, I mean, that's like your day to day.

And then some of it was culture programs. You were helping like teams have proper conversations and proper conversations. I mean, rather than just getting together as a team and saying, okay, what's on today, like a stand up, which is important. You would say, look at, okay, what are the overall goals of the team?

How do you talk about challenges? How do you so now what you call team building? Then was like, let's go out for cake and ice cream and that's team building. And I was like, no, team building is actually understanding what people bring and having psychological safety and the things that we now,  again, we now have names for lots of these things that at the time you didn't, I didn't know what it was.

So it was something called like drive time because we were a camper van company drive was like drive time. So you would get the teams together for drive time. And they were, they would move away from the day to day task and they would talk about topics that we'd often put them with topics. So they didn't have to come up with them themselves.

And you'd give them a few questions or exercises to do. And it was like 10 or 15 minutes. Um, and then I would go around and help the different teams kind of have these sort of discussions. So facilitate, and then I'd facilitate leadership groups around these discussions using kind of a similar format.

So this is where sort of facilitation comes in. Like, how do you get a group. Yeah, so I'm hearing really three things, right? One of the things is you had an own channel, right? I think it is very important somewhere in your career, particularly early in your career, to own something and be able to have that, you know, not just advisory, but, you know, have some control over the ability.

So there's sort of this, you know, ownership piece of, of comms. There's sort of this advisory piece in terms of facilitation on teams, facilitation with leaders. And then there's this sort of contrarian systems piece that is like, I don't know what the right answer is, but I know whatever we're doing isn't right, which I really, I love.

I mean, I think there's this tendency sometimes to sort of say, well, you shouldn't question something unless you have a better answer. And I'm like, No questioning is the beginning of how you find a better end. Like the beginning of the scientific process is to recognize something as suboptimal, right?

You have to identify like, ah, that's really fucking painful. And, and then, and then we're going to find, like, I don't know the answer. Yeah. And that's, I mean, much later on, that's what I do at Cultramp is you go, this is a problem. I don't know how to solve it, but let's figure it out. Um, and at the time it was challenging.

And when you would be in front of an executive team and you would say.  The 360 leadership process is, is really not working. I've got some ideas that may or may not work. Can I have complete control over, you know, redoing it?  And your CEO was like, yes, you can. He was like, yes, you can. So I was incredibly lucky that, um, he did let me redo a lot of things.

And, you know, it was great. I got some good feedback where he would, you know, I ran like a couple of leadership sessions where he was like,  didn't quite hit the mark.  I was like,  okay.  Well, there isn't. I mean, you highlight another important thing, which there is a resilience to be, to being, because,  you know, if everything works, it's not science.

There has to be failures. There has to be the ability to try a pilot and go. Yep. Nope. Nope. And it's like, I'm laughing about it now, but at the time it's pretty devastating. You know, you're so upset. You're just, you know, I was in my twenties. I was trying to, I was confident and then I'd get knocked down.

And  so I got up again. 

Era appropriate music as we're talking about 2011. So you were there for, for, for sort of three ish years. Three years. Yeah. Um, And then what made you go, Hey, I'm ready for the next thing.  Well, two things. So one is my role, it got bigger. It had kind of grown. The company was, I think close to 2000 people.

And I created myself essentially an OD role. So  me, I know, you know, late twenties, an OD role at a 2000 person company with no other support. I was like, this is a huge role. Um, and I had run out of. I guess energy to ask for more resources and didn't really know how to go about it either. I didn't know how, I didn't know how to ask for a raise, all these things, you know, so much about,  and then the best option for me was to leave because I didn't know how to do.

These things, um, what a sad, I mean, obviously you've gone on to a great brilliant career and I'm, I'm glad that you left so that you could do these other things, but it is a sad thing that like, you know, sometimes women get forced out of organization simply because they're like, I don't even, you know, your CEO probably would have said yes to more resources, but he's amazing.

He probably would have said yes and helped me get to work, but I didn't know how to ask. I didn't know how to bring it up. I didn't know how to say, I think I deserve this. So. All those things. So that was one thing. Um,  I guess there's three things. Then the other thing was  we were looking at data and particularly on engagement surveys.

Um, and I realized I was like, okay, I'm, I'm having one company. I quite like the idea of looking across multiple companies and can I do that in some way? Um, and then the third thing was my mom actually got really sick and I wanted to be able to spend more time with her. So I kind of quit my job and my brother at the same time, quit his job.

And we were both in Melbourne at the time. Um, and we were like, all right, well, let's, I was like, I'll do my own thing. We'll figure the rest out later. Um, let's kind of see if we can make this work to create more time to go back to New Zealand and see my mom. So it was sort of like a combination of things at that, at that time.

Um, all worked out for the best actually. So. But all very important. I mean, you know, I think, uh, one of the things that comes up, you know, when you have a kid or something happens to your family, you need to  change. Yeah. You got to reconfigure some of these things. Um, you know, that, that  sometimes men, sometimes white men don't necessarily have to change their careers in quite the same way because we, we don't, you know, play the same role in those things, unfortunately.

And, uh, I do think that they can, they can,  can be big changes if there, if there were, if you could speak to younger Chloe about.  Asking for resources and like, what would you like? How would you advise someone who is your younger self and he's grown into this role at a person, companies, a lot of people to be trying to do these OD programmatic things that do you think you want to stay at?

Even if you had more resources or do you think that itch of like, I might want to do this beyond more, more than one company. I think to be honest, the doing it beyond more more company would have  like would have eventually pushed you out eventually. Like, I may have said another six months or another year or so, but I think I eventually would have been pulled to that and there is that sort of trajectory for you, right?

You're sort of starting very hyper local individual coaching of jobless people, you know, like you're you're and then, you know, With every role and with every year, you're kind of blossoming into sort of more structural, more structural, more structural. How'd you, how'd you get hooked up with the Yahoos at CultureAmp, right?

Well, so I started doing like my own thing, which is I think also like code for like, I have to figure it out. But I had a bunch of people that had left THL that asked me to come and work for them and say, Oh, would you mind? Like you did a great job with this. Do you mind doing some consulting for us? I had enough work to kind of. 

Live by, um, my brother had learned how to code. So he's a data scientist slash machine learning engineer slash developer, a pretty handy,  he's a lot of like pretty, pretty smart techie kind of guy. Um, he was teaching himself to code and he had done a leadership course and he had actually done  a fitness training program and had given him an app that sent him all these reminders about what to do.

And I'd spoken to him about my leadership courses. And again, This, this is so common knowledge now, but at the time you would run a leadership course.  You'd get all this knowledge in a week and then you would go home and nothing would happen. And he's like, what if we like help change behaviors using little reminders and little kind of tiny bits of, you know, into behavioral science.

Um, he's like, you know, my coach, my behavioral science, you know, he didn't call it behavior, but he's like my fitness app. Does this really well? And so I was like, Oh, let's have a look. So we bought something called  leadomatic, which we actually came up with the name when we were, had a few drinks out at dinner, we were like singing grease lightning and we're like, it's systematic, it's hydromatic, it's leadomatic.

So our first product was like a coaching app for leadership. So I'd run leadership programs. And then they would sign up to Lead O Matic and they'd get kind of ongoing coaching and some of the material fed to them. And it was a way just to keep the stuff fresh. Um, we didn't know anything about building a tech company, but we were working out of some of the co working spaces.

And my brother came home one day and said, Hey, Chloe. There's a couple of guys upstairs, um, who are a couple of guys, several guys upstairs. It was the four founders, all male anyway. And he said, they're doing something in that culture space that you kind of like. And I was like, okay. And he said, they've also got a Series A funding.

And I was like, what does Series A funding mean? He's like, it means I've got a product that's probably got legs. And I was like, Okay,  I will have a look. It's not called lead o matic. It's not called lead o matic, exactly. And I was like, you know, more than we have legs. And he's like, a lot more. And I was like, okay,  I'll go have a look.

So I got introduced to Dr. Jason McPherson, who was the chief scientist at the time and founding, like founding scientists of Culture Tramp. And we had a chat on my birthday and, um, he said, what are you doing? I was like, you know, I'm doing my own thing. I've got a couple of days free. And he said, can you come and help me out with this?

Project that he was working on. It was actually called, um, insights to action. So one of the challenges I was struggling with is.  HR were getting these survey results, getting fantastic insights, and then they weren't doing anything about it. So no behavior changes happening. No action is what we called it.

So we started looking into that problem. And I was there for, I think, two weeks on a contract. And then, uh, the CEO asked me how long I was staying for. And I was like, I don't think I'm going anywhere. And he's like, good. So  that was, that was pretty much it.  Nice, nice hiring interview. It was great.  Yeah. I started it and then I just never left.

It was kind of exactly, it was kind of that, I mean, back in the day, Coltramp were 15 people. So I was, it was early enough that you could just keep hanging around and people were happy to have you stay.  And they still are after 90, they're still very happy to have you today. Talk to me a little bit about, about how, sort of how your role emerged and, and you know, because we have a lot, we get a lot of people asking about sort of like early stage roles and how do you evolve this and how do you, you know, keep going and stay relevant and, and sort of carve out the right niche for yourself here.

Talk to me about the trajectory at Culture Ramp. What were you doing in those early days?  Yeah, I think that during the early days of a startup, anyone who's interested, it's, it's very much, I think about being kind of very flexible and really find out what needs to be done and being able to kind of prioritize ruthlessly with where you put your efforts and also not being, not wanting to be spread across multiple things.

So I was like the internal L and D person. I did a bit of marketing. I was the customer. People signed us who work with our customers and I did a bit of product. So in a typical org, I was across like three main domains, but it was so small. And I was like, ah, I can do a bit of this. I can do a bit of that.

Um, I wasn't great at sales. I didn't do any sales and I couldn't build products. I didn't do any kind of like tech stuff. And so I started doing that and then we needed to  open an office in London. So I moved over to London and help set up the office there. And so I grew the team there with a colleague from, I think there were five of us to start, and when it got to about 20, I was like, all right, I think my job is done.

Um, and so that was one of those.  I had the flexibility in my life at the time that I could take that leap and just move to London within the space of a couple of months and,  you know, help set up an office. Um, but I think learning those skills were pretty helpful, but I was still working very much on the customer side and I enjoyed it.

I like customer work. I've. You know, I did hospitality all throughout my time. So I was like, this feels good, but I had missed being in touch with the product. And so  after about two years in London, um, I spoke to Dr. Jace, who was my mentor at the time. Um, and I said, you know, I'm thinking about coming back to Melbourne.

Um, you know, I'd like to be more involved in product. And he said, yep, come over.  I'm building the data science team was starting to do something more in the like kind of scientific method, come over and hang out with us. So I, I came back and joined Jace and we then had a few years of  working directly with the product teams doing research.

We were building a, using natural language processing models to build out our text. Analytics. Um, and so that was happening with what the data scientists were doing. And we were sort of consulting to the product teams on,  it was kind of a, let's figure out how to do this. So I did that for, you know, probably like a good couple of years.

We worked on various products. Um, and then I noticed that we would do research into certain topics, more opportunist, opportunistically, like Jace would come up with a great idea. He'd spend his weekend,  you know, crunching some numbers, doing some research, have some great insights. Marketing would love it.

We'd publish it. It would get good recognition. Um, we spoke and he's like, I think we need to have a more dedicated type research lab. And so we started something called culture lab, which was looking at, you know, research driven insights from our own data rather than I guess, academically. Um, so that was a good, I started, I guess,  a common theme throughout culture amp is seeing like opportunities and be like, Oh yes, I think I can do that, or I think I'll give this a go.

And so it grew.  Culture Lab was two people, it was Jace and a data scientist, um, Jace retired. And so I took it over, it was me and a data scientist, and then grew it to about 20. And then I was like, all right, this is probably about the size of where I'm out of my depth, technically, because it was mostly data scientists, and it was getting more into the data infrastructure. 

I needed, we need to bring in someone with more technical expertise to take over the leadership. And then  my kind of main pivot in my kind of career culture ramp was to start PSX. So I got new leadership into the culture lab. They took over the data center, I guess. And I convinced the founders that we needed something called PSX, which essentially was created, which was called people science experience.

And I said, what we need to be doing is looking how we can directly embed.  Um, in a systematic way, people, science or psychology and behavioral science, entire product. Now we had always done it, but it hadn't been, there hadn't been a team and it hadn't been done systematically or programmable using methods that aligned with product, it was more relationship based.

So I knew the product managers, I would talk to them. I would work with them on a project rather than how do we actually embed these principles into how you're building product, which now we know is just a behavioral science methodology that's laid on product methods. But the time we didn't know, and I didn't know either, I hadn't met you yet.

So I was like, what am I doing? I'm just kind of using some kind of sciencey stuff to try to get product happening. Um, but started PSX.  And that's still growing, but it got to about 10 before I went on maternity leave. So I was doing that for probably the last two or three years at Coltramp. Um, and still a work in progress, but that was really bringing in, uh,  processes that align with product where you're looking at how can we work with UX researchers, designers, analytics, data scientists, like our research base to use that to help inform product innovation.

And how can we do  behavioral psychology or people science, whatever label we, you want to use, On the testing that UX researchers are already doing. Um, so a lot of the challenges, like you're building a product and product managers and design already have a way of building product. How can you kind of give them a layer of human behavior on top of the process they're already doing rather than creating something new? 

Yeah. I think there is, first of all, we're going to unpack many of those stages. You're like,  soliloquy, all of the things. No, no, no. We're going to unpack some of these, but yeah, to your point, I mean,  I think there's often this somewhat combative role by some people who are like, Oh, we got to get in there and blow up everything, you know, blow up their spot.

I'm like, Oh, evolve. I really like the word evolve. We're going to evolve what they're doing, right? Which, you know, suggests that there was something that came before and there is something that will come after and hopefully will continue to change and continue to improve and continue to be better. Um, but doesn't involve blowing up.

You know, I'm putting the finishing touches on this, how to build behavioral science teams document. And, you know, there's a whole.  About a page long thing that's like you don't have to hire all these people in that new like you probably have them You probably just have not arranged them in a sequence that would allow you i'm fascinated by Um, there's a quote in my book from a british rapper the streets Uh, and he has a line, uh, some fuckers get the aces in the high ones So organize your twos and threes into a run and you'll have fucked him some  and i'd like that I'm, not a big poker player, but I like that about poker that like You The most powerful hand is not actually like  high cards.

Your post powerful hand is like cards lined up next to each other. And those can be, you can have a two, three, four, five, right? Like you can have like not, not great cards, but if you can get them sort of arranged correctly, you can get disproportionate things, which I think is one of the things that you've done really well with PSX is like, Hey, how do we sort of.

Take these components that we already have  and get them to work together in a way that is less lossy, um, than, you know, it's in a way it's almost startup mentality where you don't have the money to buy all the resources. You have to kind of work out, work with what you have. And I think in some companies they might go, oh, okay, well we probably what you're facing, okay.

So we need to hire six different roles for all these things. And  it's like, no, you can kind of work with what you have. And like, it, it's more, yeah, figuring that out. And I think. Also going through so many seeing companies to do these big cultural transformations.  I'm like, I personally do not have the energy for some of those huge big undertakings.

When I just want to like quickly prove that this can work. So in a way it's easier to go, okay, tell me what methods you're already using as a product team. These are the steps I think we can kind of embed in rather than trying to get these people to go through a huge transformation. Because even to get people to do new steps is a, is a big thing.

Um, it's like, let's not make it harder for ourselves. And you know, it's always package the unfamiliar, familiar. I use that a lot in like, how can I make this sound and seem like something you're kind of already doing?  Yeah. There's a lot of promoting pressure to it. I'm already doing this. And a lot of reduced inhibiting pressure to, I don't have to learn anything new.

Fantastic. Not to, not to you. And then, you know, enough excitement that it feels like it makes, and it does make a change to how you do that. Where, you know, it makes enough of a difference. They're like, okay, this is worth repeating. Yeah. And so that's like showing the value and then often that's just like reminding them of the things that were considered earlier on because of these slight tweaks to how you've been doing things.

Yeah, I think that communication part, taking your career all the way back to the beginning, right? I was talking to somebody yesterday who happened to be in town for a conference, and she had a really good idea and she was just going to do it. She was like, I'm not even going to ask for permission. I'm just going to do it.

And I was like, I'm going to ask, I'm going to tell you to ask for permission, not because you need permission, but because you want people to know what you're doing, right?  Exactly. We'll just succeed and no one will know what happened. Like you have to sort of, there's a communication element to, to be able to sense that maybe,  I think it's hard for some folks, especially if they came from academia, academia is in a, It's very gauche to sort of toot your own horn in academia, right?

It's supposed to be other people toot the horn for you, right? And that doesn't always work in business. I mean, sometimes you have to sort of say like, Hey, this is how we're evolving things. And this is why it was successful. And look, you avoided some mistakes here and you avoided launching things that didn't work at work and you avoided these other things.

And that's good. And, and celebrating that collectively. And that is hard to do. I had to like write it in as a step. So I don't forget to do  like for myself.  Because otherwise I don't. I had, I got some great coaching in my life once that said, um, what I do is I do a piece of work and then I kind of hold it up and go, well, someone look at this and maybe like it, please. 

So  it was like, how can you not do that?  So again, Ken, what you're saying is communicating what you're doing, reiterating it and, and not just being like, someone look at my piece of work.  Do you think your client experience helped you do that? Right? Because clients do sort of need to be, even if they're past sales.

They still need to be sold to, right. It needs to feel like we would. Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, we would also do a lot of like retention of customers and, you know, when they've already got their product, they were like, how do I get additional value? You know, you knew that there was underneath, like you had to bring value to them.

And a lot of it is reminding them of the value you've already. Broaden talking through what you're doing and and you don't want to be it's not about boasting It's just about sometimes highlighting things that have already happened or talking or helping people get new insight I suppose, um, but definitely customer world. 

It's a lot  customers are really challenging I think you can find you know, they help and I think I think about customers more generally. I'm a customer, I can be challenging. I have expectations of everyone, you know, that I'm, that I'm working with. Um, but hospitality was like great training for that early on, like getting yelled at because you gave someone the wrong food and having to like manage those, those, those, those.

really intense conversations working with chefs. I think, you know, all of that has helped me then deal with HR generally super lovely people. The criticisms are like so nicely packaged. I'm like, this is so easy to like help deal with these, you know, like it's not super emotionally driven. Um, so anyway, lots of, I think lots of skills throughout your life can kind of help you, but customer work definitely in terms of, um, yeah, just what we were talking about.

I use the restaurant analogy a lot in, you know,  when I talk about this sort of business model, behavioral model, operational model, right? Like you have to, business model orders what they want, right? They have to tell us what behaviors they care about. Behavioral model needs to translate that into something we can actually do.

And then operational model has to actually build it, right? You need some chefs back there who can actually cook the darn thing, right? So when I take somebody's order, I, in my mind have to go, Hey, can the chefs even cook this with things that we have? And I think it is. It's an analogy for me, but it also is, you know, an experience that I've had working in hospitality, right?

Like you do,  you know, the, the expression of horror on a chef's face at like, I worked so hard to do this and now you're bringing it back is definitely reminiscent of the look of horror from engineers when you're like, I worked so hard to build this. And now it's, yeah, I know. That same frozen expression where you're not a hundred percent sure if they might hit you with that meat cleaver. 

I once made the mistake of throwing a meal out  in front of the chef, never again. It was awful. I was so stressed. Like I didn't even think about it. And I just went, like, I was like, sorry, I had to bring a meal back. The customer. And I just went like that into the bin. And the minute it was like sliding off the plate, I was like, I'm making the biggest mistake.

I should not have done that. I can't do anything about it. Um, I've never did that again. And it was like, at least it wasn't obnoxious. movement. It was more just absent minded, but still, um, anyway, so yeah, it's like deleting a whole, you know, month of engineer's work because it wasn't quite what was ordered anyway.

Um, it is similar things, you know, it's the skills, I think, and I did hospitality, I think, you know, probably seven or eight years, probably all out,  which is a pretty significant portion of your career. If you think about how much time, you know, you're well trained, well trained, uh, what, what, uh,  What made you say, was it more about lifestyle?

Hey, I'm ready to come back from London. And the way to come back to London is go back to Melbourne and do this. Or were you kind of done with client work? Do you think there was a part of you that sort of said, Hey, I need to do something different. Tell me a little bit about that. I think again, the, um, I kept going back to that scale.

Like I was working one on one with customers and I really enjoyed like solving individual customers. And I got a lot of energy in the moment. I was doing lots of talking events. Um,  but when I heard what the product folk were doing and they were thinking like, how can we, at the time I was just starting to talk about manager behavior. 

And I was like, Oh, this is, this is my bag. Like I think I want to start this. I was like, Oh, this is me, manager behavior. I was like, Ooh. Um, and they were talking about some problems. They're like, Oh, we can't get our managers to, I think it was like log on to the platform at the time. And we can't get managers to take through the report, take the team's reports with them.

And I was like, Oh, this is super cool stuff to start to think about. Not just work with one organization and, you know, handhold all their managers. It's a different type of personality, I guess, cause I, I enjoyed that to some extent, but I was like, no, I really want to work on this scale problem. And so that was it.

And using, um, I think also I was a little bit done with customer work. I wanted to be more behind the scenes. Um, and that was a good realization to come to going. Actually, I don't, I do. I don't mind. Like I I'm comfortable facilitating. I don't mind giving talks.  I enjoy some of that, but I 70 or  80 percent of my day, I actually want to be, A little bit of that person back in the lab. 

Back in the biology, not quite entirely, you know, you can have your cake and eat it. I want to be, you know, behind the scenes working with data scientists, engineers, behavioral scientists, designing experiments, figuring like deep, doing some of that really deep thinking on a problem rather than that really quick thinking on your feet.

And you, you do need both. And I kind of developed a lot of that quick thinking on my feet. I was like, I want time to really think about a problem and solve it over time with enough space to kind of. Experiment and think about it. And that's why I created PSX was we were sort of solving problems, really trying to solve problems really quickly and almost at pace as if we were customer facing and I was like for product, these problems are multimillion dollar problems when you really think about how much money and resources we're going to spend on them.

You do not want me thinking about giving you an answer in an hour or even a day. Like some of these problems, we want to go through the process to actually do our research, do our experiments, test our assumptions, all the stuff, you know.  Um, how can I create an environment where me and other people can do that type of work and it's somewhat protected.

So  Jace was very much aligned with me on that. And he said, come back with me and we will create something new. So we'll do something, something different and more interesting. I love one of the things you said in there. Which was about, hey, I'm good at this and I can do it, but I don't want to be doing it all of the time.

Which I think is for a lot of people, a lot of people get in a trap of like, Well, I just have to do whatever I'm good at. My job has to be whatever I'm good at. And in fact, you know, most people are good at lots of things, right? Like they're good at more than one thing. You Chloe are a rich and diverse individual with lots of talents and skills.

You don't always have to be using all of them in every moment. To, to, to do this thing. Cause that can be a little bit of a trap at times. I think it can, it can be, and it can be exhausting. I think you've got to think about what your, where your energy levels are. And for me, I, you know, I go and go to back to like your work values, but I really like creating things and just, you know, experimenting,  but what that meant if I was doing talks is I would.

Be driven to create a new talk and experiment every single time. Which is really stressful because you have to like, you're doing a talk for the first time every single time, because I was, I just wanted to do new things all the time.  And it was like paired with that, it wasn't a good combination, but doing new things all the time in experiments is great because you're by yourself, you don't have that social pressure.

So it's the same skill that's applied in a different kind of area. Yeah. And there's, you know, Uh, it's a lot easier to screw up an experiment than a talk. I have, I have, you know, as someone who does, as you know, a lot of speaking, you know, 99 percent of the time I'm an extraordinarily good speaker. One person, whoa,  I've gotten very dark. 

Alexa, desk on.  Uh,  you know, most of the time I'm a pretty good speaker, but every once in a while I will just  I just get out there and die and I can't, you know, and it doesn't work. And that is okay.  You know, to your point, every talk, every client facing moment, you want to be, you want to land it, right?

Because it means so much to the business and you got to win that, but you know, you got to win the business. You got to do that. Like there is a pressure for it to be working a hundred percent of the time. And I don't know that that As a scientist,  you almost feel like you're forcing it, right? You can't, it's hard to sort of be natural because  you know, you can't have failures in the same way.

And then what was, what was good about the shifted product is, and I would still, I still like a bit of client and I still like doing talks. I still do them. I still like client facing work, but I would work with clients who were wanting to experiment. So it was very deliberate in who you work with. So I would say we're in the lab, we're testing this out.

Are you willing to come and, you know, learn with us? And they were fantastic customers to work with. So,  you know, the, the.  How do you find those, I think that's a good,  how do you find those customers that are willing to come on the journey? What are the early signs that a customer  has that experimentary, I'm willing to go along on you, you know, how did you get that?

For me, it was the, normally the HR person themself is trying to break something and they can't quite figure out how to break it. So they're all trying to, so I can't figure out how to make it work. So they're like, Oh, I've been playing around with how to redo performance reviews, for example,  um, I've been trying to get my manager, I've built like a bunch of templates and I've got 20 managers doing it, but I don't know how to get everybody and they will chat to our customers and those, they, they're already doing those kinds of things.

And cause our customer people, scientists will be talking to them  and they normally, they're like, you know, I've read this book, so they kind of. I guess curious open, and it's not the whole organization. Sometimes there are, but normally it's an individual who has scope to experiment within their company.

So normally a senior OD person or the chief people officer has that type of mindset. And then they get you on board and you work with them. And normally it is typically, you know, tech companies that are pretty progressive or they want to be seen as progressive in the space. It kind of goes along with it, but not always.

It's sometimes an individual in a very traditional organization who just, you know, reminds me a little bit of myself, you know, kind of breaking a 360. So those are the types of people that are pretty good. And so,  and also they kind of have a similar attitude of, I know this way isn't working. I don't quite know what the answer is, which is very different from, I know what the answer is.

I want you to build something that does this answer.  That creates the solution. Like I have a solution, make my solution work. That's not a, not a good fit for me. AKA me as the, I remember my first cultural discussion where I'm like, just make it says to do the thing I want. We've been doing this experiment manually and I just, I already know it works because we've been doing it manually.

I just need you to make it do it automatically. CultureAmp was like, no, we don't do that. And I was like, okay, well, fine. But like, no, no, I know it works because we've been doing it manually for,  but it's like the manual, the man I've been doing it manually is. I love that phrase. Cause that is actually a really good signal that we've got something to work with. 

Yeah. And so, cause I would have that, like with our manager, one, one product, I was doing that many, I figured out how to do it manually. And I was literally walking around with pieces of paper with these drawings on that I was getting managers to have these one on one conversations using these little drawings.

And I was like, these aren't working. Let's turn it into a product. Um, so I was that person and then you do that and then you can scale it, but that manually and it's working.  To me, that was also like a good signal, which is like, I've changed our performance review. I've done it and I just can't get it to like all these people. 

So that's, so that's an interesting point because you're not necessarily saying, Hey, they're open to, you know, it's not necessarily openness. Right. It's so much as like, they've already tried breaking it. Like they're already like in action. Right. And what, like, I guess what does it work from like a product point of view is. 

This is what it should look like in the product. And this is what we want you to build. And that was my humbling experience as an IO site. Like I had my piece of paper and I was convinced if you just build this exactly how it is, it will work.  And then you talk to a designer and they're like, well, that's not how it works in tech, this is not how you do user, um, user research and you're like, Oh, that completely falls over.

When you have a tech, I think that's. That's the difference. We're actually like having a solution. It's like, I've got this thing, I kind of know how it might work. I want to like figure it out. And then you go, okay, this is probably not how it's going to look in a product, but let's figure it out. And this is like a base point.

And probably the end result is going to be like really different. But as long as it's solving your problem, then we're kind of, we're somewhere, but the starting point of trying to break something and manually do it, because it's so clunky to use any other technology is a good starting point. There, um, I was giving a talk at Warwick, uh, recently, and one of the students asked, what's the, you keep talking about pilots, what's the difference between a pilot and a prototype?

And I was like, Pilots will probably look nothing like what it eventually ends up, you know, they're just trying to, is there even a spark of something? Can we do something with this? Yeah. It's like, is there even the core psychological things are right? Right. It's not actually a prototype is much more like.

An experiment about what it will actually look like. I don't even pretend that my pilots are what they're, you know, I like, you're just like, and sometimes you're only testing like one little piece to be like, I want to see this kind of thing will work. Like I was trying to see if people would even. 

Scribble in how they feel in front of their manager. You know, like it's just like one little behavior that I was trying to test. Cause if that doesn't work, then there's no point. I don't know how it's going to look in the product. I didn't even know. I'm just testing this one little bit. And it was like my 10 managers, you know, which is what these early pilots look like.

It's literally 10 people. You're like, okay, there's a glimmer of hope here. Let's do the next thing. Yeah. And that glimmer. I love that you use the word glimmer. It is that little spark, that little glimmer that's like, is there enough evidence? I talk about the difference between academic and applied behavioral science as, you know, the currency of academia is certainty, right?

P less than 0. 05 because other people are going to come build on top of it. So you have to be really right. Yeah. You don't have to be that right in applied. You just have to be right. That the cost benefit ratio, right. Enough for the cost benefit ratio. You know, if you imagine some error bar, You know, if the error bar crosses over the benefit, then you're like, all right, man, you know, kind of sure.

It's got, it's got a, got a K. Yeah,  I do. I enjoy, I enjoy it a lot more having that approach than like the pure reason, and we do both in our practice. We do like research. We have to report, you know, data with certain DMP values and strength testing. And then we do. The applied stuff, which is like, okay, we've spoken to 10 people.

There's a glimmer of hope that this is going to, let's do the next kind of iteration. That's right. And that iterative And then you get asked, like, how certain are you? And you were like,  Uh, I have my own scale of certainty. Right. Certain, certain enough for the cost benefit ratio. It's really cheap and it might be really good.

So I've got it, got it, certain enough,  right? Yeah, it's like, it's going to be 10 hours and this much, and it's worth doing the next step. Yeah, let's find out. Let's go to the, let's go to the next level. That iterative piece is really, is really key, right? I think  the lovely thing that behavioral science and behavioral scientists like you have brought to the field  It's not the iteration of like,  I don't know, the startup canvas or something right where they're like kind of blindly iterating.

I'm like, no, no, there's like theory to it, right? Like it's theoretically bound iteration, right? Like I know why I'm doing the next thing. I'm not just changing a color because I'm changing a color. Yeah, you've got this theoretical base. And you build your like hypotheses on it and you kind of, but you're constantly,  so another topic, but I was going to say  so many with the replication crisis in psychology, so many things I'm like, Oh my God, I have to rethink everything.

But I still think, no, it just gives me  a base that I can test and go, this is one way. Is this, you know, it kind of makes you more curious. You make much, you know, much fewer, much less assumptions as well. And what's, so as you can, what's next for you continuing to evolve BSX, I think. actually just talking about that.

Now I'm looking at going into, in our, in our product, um,  we're starting, we just recently announced a partnership with Orgnostic, which is a people analytics service. platform. So it's using kind of back the roots. It's like giving really good insight from like a data point of view to help inform leaders and managers, like what to do.

So there's that kind of culture ramp, um, on the side, I am, you know, kind of teaching some of the basics of behavioral science to some startups. I mentor startups  on what they should do. And I talk to them about behavioral mapping. I love, absolutely love that type of work. Um, and then, You know, it's a bunch of startups and I'm like, Oh, you're so early in your product.

Your product is so fresh. It is. You've got all the room in the world to bring in these kinds of principles. And I'm, I get so much, you're smiling. I get so much energy from that, you know, helping bring in these principles, like right from the beginning. And some of the startups, I, when I worry about the world, I see what these startups are doing.

I'm like, Oh, we're going to be okay. Um, so a bit of that. And then, you know, um,  I coach some like female leaders who want to get into the tech world. And I think I'll continue to do, you know, build more of that space.  Yeah. Keeping, keeping your hand in. I think it's diversity. Well, as you said, you like new things, you like diversity.

And so having that diverse slate of things, thank you so much for coming and chatting with me. I always love talking to you and it's always so energizing at the, you know, this is seven o'clock here on the, on the West coast. It's always so lovely to just have a little chat with you. And, and, uh, I really appreciate you coming and spending some time with me today.

Thanks, Matt. That was, that was super fun and no baby crying. So I, I, I was listening. Very good. That's a win. But they, they, you know, I can, I, I can put babies to sleep. I'm very boring. And so babies are more than happy to, to, I have a lot of friends who hand me babies because they, babies just lay, lay on my wallet and go to sleep.

I think, uh, adults. I wonder if it'll work if I just like play a recording of your voice at like 5am when she's awake. I'll try. I mean, I If you don't mind a little cursing, you could just put on the audio book and just lull her to sleep. She might say some words that you're not so keen on later, but uh,  all right.

Chloe, you're always such a pleasure. I, I, so, so much fun. Uh, thank you for all the great work that you do at CultureAmp. You know, I, I, I think, you know, you've done a really amazing job of bringing You know, applied behavioral science into the product, you know, and helping them continue to grow. And i'm so it's so wonderful to see and uh, i'm so glad we get to be friends  Amazing.

Thanks matt