Lead & Live Well

Complexity Busting with Kamalah Fletcher

• Erin Cox & M. Scott Knox • Season 1 • Episode 4

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This episode of Lead and Live Well features a heartfelt conversation with Kamalah Fletcher, who brings over two decades of non-profit leadership experience to the table. Hosts Erin Cox and Scott Knox explore Kamalah's story, from the challenges she faced in her early career to founding her own transformative agency. Kamalah’s reflections on turning personal needs into professional strengths and maintaining wellness amidst demanding work are both profound and practical. Tune in to learn from Kamalah's rich experiences and gain insights on leading a balanced and impactful life.

Hosted by Erin Cox and M. Scott Knox
Edited and Produced by Stephanie Cohen

Erin: Welcome to the Lead and Live Well podcast. My name is Erin Cox, and I'm thrilled to be here with my co host Scott Knox. On the Lead and Live Well podcast. We sit down with leaders in the social impact world to learn about their leadership journeys. We talk about their strengths and passions, the transitions they have made in their career, and how they have crafted their own paths to leadership.

Our goal is to highlight a diverse array of leaders and journeys, so that our listeners learn from relatable and compelling examples of what it means to lead and live well.. 

Hey Scotty, how are you feeling today?

Scott: Erin, I'm doing great. Particularly excited about our guest and our conversation today.

Erin: Oh my goodness. Entertaining, deep, fantastic. Those are just three of the millions of words I could use to describe this human being. Let me tell you a little bit about her. Kamalah Fletcher, a dynamic non profit leader brings over two decades of expertise in community engagement, disaster response, and community development to the Lead & Live Well podcast. The agency she recently founded, called A Little Help Never Hurt, is a catalyst for transformation through engagement.

In her work, Kamalah intricately weaves networks of practitioners to deliver intimate program design and service excellence in human services and anti-poverty programming. Kamalah's journey, starting in early childhood education and evolving into diverse levels of nonprofit leadership, reflects her passion for connecting and problem solving. And she's funny. She's deeply insightful, and we could not be more excited to have her here today. Welcome, Ms. Fletcher.

Kamalah: Thank you so much. 

Erin: All the love coming to you. 

Kamalah: I feel it.

Scott: Absolutely. 

Erin: Well, we're excited to dive into what we know will be a multifaceted conversation. And what we want to start with is really getting a sense of the arc of your career to date. Because you've had some interesting steps along the way. One of them, of course, being at jumpstart with all of us. Those are the golden years. 

And we'd be curious to hear you walk us through the types of transitions you made, whether there was intention and /or chance in the choices. kind of what, what you take away from the sum total of your experiences thus far. So dive in, dive in at the beginning.

Kamalah: So, you know back in 1976, Lauren and Anthony,

Scott: Yes. 

Kamalah: Well, actually, I mean, sort of the running joke is that, you know, I'm a Jamaican woman or I'm from a Caribbean background. So I've always had a Jamaican number of jobs. So I probably could say that I started working when I was born. But yeah, I, and you know, it's funny too, because I think.

I really marked my time at Jumpstart as an AmeriCorps member as the beginning of the career path that I'm on now. So, you know, my, plus number of work really started when I was like 19 years old and fell in love with this idea. Idea of being with this like, kind of ragtag startup nonprofit.

Not so rag, not so tag. They actually had their stuff together. And then early childhood. And so I joined Jumpstart. It was my sophomore year in college. I was an AmeriCorps member. I was a Girl Scout. I volunteered everywhere.

My mom volunteered. And so it was familiar. And I remember even leaving high school excited that Clinton was a president because I was excited about AmeriCorps.

Scott: Mm.

Erin: Mm.

Kamalah: And so, to be at that organization it was so serendipitous because at a startup you know, you get to do a lot of things that you wouldn't necessarily have the opportunity to do.

I probably shouldn't go into any detail about some of the things that I was allowed to do, but I was a member, I was learning about early childhood education. I was being trained to be self aware and to know my customer. I guess, if I was going to translate all of the early childhood principles, I would know my customer and then see where the places I had power, I had influence and I was just supposed to do a thing. And so I did that for a couple of years and then it followed this track of me always feeling very capable.

Scott: Mm.

Kamalah: I think part of the reason why I sort of retired from my childhood very early was I was like I know how to do things and I want people to let me do things and I'm tired of being told what to do and that sort of thing and jumpstart was this environment where I was able to have that experience.

It also tapped into what I didn't know then about how I learn is that, much like the little children I learned by doing. I'm an experiential person. So I started to seek those experiences because I was like, I don't know how I feel about the school stuff but I know that when I'm out in the workplace, I learn things. I know how to do stuff. And then it just feels satisfying. and then I went on to teach at my Jumpstart placement. Because I was oriented in this community service, community outreach thing, I went out into the community because you learn the connection between what's going on with that child in front of you and what's happening in their family, what's happening in their neighborhood, what are the services that are needed, right? You need good, healthy, whole children.

You need good, healthy, whole adults. You need good, healthy, whole neighborhoods. And so that was pulling me a little bit further out of the classroom. You know, I did a couple of things here and there as I was kind of wandering around. And then I came back to Jumpstart to start the site in Baltimore, cause I was having another moment of, well, I want to move to this place.

And I feel very capable. I looked at this job description, I was like, I could do all of those things. I've done a little bit of this. I've done a little bit of this. And I know I could do that other thing. Right. And so to answer your question about like, where was the balance between intention and happenstance, maybe?

I was also on this like personal journey to understand myself better. I wanted to know what was true for me. I wanted to know who I really was versus I was in my family scenario, who I was in these friendship groups I happened to be part of, who I was as a student or as a worker.

So all I knew to do was go where I felt led, right? So follow my gut. 

So then I was slowly building this work experience that was so robust. It was making up for the fact that I was so young or, you know, I wasn't done with school and all of this stuff. So that's all I knew to do, but it was leading me in good places. So I was like, I'm going to keep doing it. 

It was a little bit out of, this is what I feel like I'm supposed to do. And then also a little bit of desperation, maybe because I did feel a little lost and confused because like my sense of self is bumping up against what the world either wants me to be able to say about who I am, or what the world thinks about who I am or should be. And then I was being tested in ways where I thought my confidence in who I was was going to hold up to challenge a lot better than it had. And that was very confusing and, um, disruptive for me. So I went to the places where I knew, made me feel a little bit more together, I guess.

Erin: Mm. 

Scott: Just say a little bit more about that. 

Kamalah: I'm the oldest female child, which then means I, you know, was also like a second, deputy parent. I was pretty much working as soon as I was able to work. And so I wasn't rebellious or anything like that. But I was kind of headstrong and sure about the things that I knew.

Like I had a lot of self awareness. I was like, I know, I don't know everything, but I know, I know a couple of things that you really can't tell me much about these couple of things that I'm sure I know as a teenager. 

And then here's who I think I am in these like romantic relationships and with boys and men and whoever, and then as soon as I bumped up against a situation where I needed to sort of like stand strong, advocate for myself and um, not accept treatment that was less than I deserve, I thought I was a different person who wouldn't put up for that. And then I put up with it.

Right. I thought I was coming to school like, I want to be an environmental engineer. I want to be like this. I want to be this. And I was like, well, I don't like that class. I don't like this thing. I don't like this other place. I would have never declared a major.

And so. I was like, well, I'm not as good a student as I thought I was, but I also didn't know I was not in the learning environment that really was suited for me. So then my reaction was, I'm not a good student. I need to get out of this place, stop wasting everybody's time and money and go work because that's what I know how to do.

You know, so I had, I just kept having these experiences where, hey, here's who I am. And then it was like, yeah, that's not right. That's not how you are supposed to do things, that's not who you should be, that's not going to work in society, you know, you're not going to go anywhere. All of these things. And I was like, this doesn't, it doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel like that's the story. 

And so I kind of went very deeply into myself so I could feel like I knew who I was so that my sense of myself could hold up to the tests that I was being faced with.

Scott: Yes. Yes, yes. 

Erin: It's interesting to hear you reflect on that. And I just so appreciate the depth and the transparency of the reflections you're bringing forward. If I had to think of some words to describe you, confident would be on that list. There's been a moment in that trajectory or many moments that have shifted how you stand up for yourself in times when you're bumping up against conflict or disagreement or disbelief and in your abilities. So I wonder if you could tell us the story of one of those moments where you felt like a different switch go on.

Kamalah: Okay. my business, a little help never heard in its current form is in the last like 10 years or so. Right. But it's really, it's first iteration was back in like 2008. I wasn't working. I had gotten let go from a job and the second they let me go, it was the best feeling, best decision anybody ever made in the world.

And so I was really grateful to have been let go. So, cause like my life opened up and I traveled more than I ever had just like all this wonderful stuff. And I was like, is work a hindrance to me having the things that I want? So then I was like, well, okay what can I do? I was like, I'm, I come from entrepreneurial, you know, Caribbean people, we be starting stuff.

So I was like, well, I know how to do a lot of things. And actually I couldn't even list it. Right. The list would be 

too long. If I tried to give you a menu of stuff that I know how to do. So I was like, I'm just going to start telling people my company is a little help never hurt. I will give you a little bit of help.

You tell me what you need. I'll tell you if I can help you. And if I can't help you, I probably know somebody who can help you and so I just started doing it and I just told everybody.

And then I looked around and then I was realizing that people who also live that kind of freelance life are called consultants. And they're doing the same thing that I know how to do and they are charging people money for it. So if, even if you needed a favor from me and you needed to go to the supermarket.

I was like, that's what I do for my business. And here is the cost of that. And I'm going to give you a discount because I love you. And then I started to earn money from it. So it was just this moment I was like, Oh, my gut was right. 

Every time somebody came to me with a problem, I was like, you are not the only person that has this problem. Is this something that needs to be personalized to you? Is it that the systems that are supposed to support you haven't supported you? Is it that there is a more unique design that's needed for you And so I was like, all right. every single question, everything that somebody, and people ask me to do a lot of like very varied things that I was like, that could be like a whole industry. That could be a whole thing. 

So I just like, this is going to be, this is, this is who I am. This is going to be what I build. I didn't dedicate myself full time to it. At that moment, but I was like, I know this is going to be the thing. 

Scott: All right. So since the start of this conversation. And then of course, like with a little background knowledge over 20 plus years, there's so many strengths and superpowers that I see just from being in proximity and listening and watching and hearing. And I'm curious to hear what are some of the superpowers that you see in yourself? And that's part one and part two is when did you come to realize that it was a superpower?

Kamalah: So one of my superpowers and the answer to how did I come to realize it is somebody suggested it and it sounded good and I was like, okay, this is going on my shield, would be complexity busting.

Scott: Hmm. Say more 

Kamalah: So it's like ever the teacher in me, so I can take a thing and I can break it down into exactly how you need to hear it so that you can do something with that information.

And I can do that for anybody, I can get to know you pretty quickly and then help translate an idea or something into both how you need to hear it so that you can be open to it or the words that you will be more meaningful to you. And I can make a, I can pull a very complex thing into its component parts.

I think another superpower that I realized was a superpower it's on the strengthsfinder list. It's woo. So winning others over. 

Scott: Definite superpower. 

Erin: I know woo the tagline isn't it that "there are no strangers, just friends I haven't met yet."

Kamalah: Exactly. And, and it's connected to that complexity busting, right. Because I realized it in networking situations where um, I was like, well, I don't want to talk to this person about something I can just look up on Google or something I can read on their business card.

If I'm going to have this moment of audience for you, I want to know some like really excruciatingly intimate details about you. 

Scott: Hmm. 

Kamalah: Right? And I'm going to share some things that you don't want to hear, but we don't get, we're going to go real deep, real quick and we're going to get close. 

Erin: This is like directly following nice to meet you.

Kamalah: It's, it is. Right. Actually I get it from my mother where my mother's like a social butterfly. And when I was little, I was painfully shy, if you can believe it.

Erin: No,

Kamalah: Painfully, like, like disruption of my internal organs, levels of stress and anxiety. Right. And I would watch my mother and I realized that she was saying the same thing every time she met somebody.

 We lived in places like Nebraska, South Carolina, and the Philippines. If my mother heard a Caribbean accent anywhere, she would make a beeline for that person. She's like, did I hear an accent?

I'm Lorna, nice to meet you. Where are you from? Oh, what part of Jamaica are you from? What's your last name? Where are your people? And I was like, she said the same thing to everybody. So I was like, I can, I can say the same thing to everybody. So I started, I learned to like make scripts and I would just go interrupt people. I was like, I'm just going to interrupt your conversation. Cause there isn't really a natural way for me to come and meet you all. So I just want to say, hi, my name is Kamalah.

Or somebody that's really confident and like, or kind of owning the room. I'll go up to them like, why am I supposed to know you? How do you find yourself here? Who are you? Why, why are you supposed to be important? 

And then also I'm driven by spite, right? So I had these really tall heels that were 6 '2 and I would wear them when I knew I was going to be in a place of mostly men. And then I would look, like, I would always make intense eye contact with them and invade their personal space. And like, I enjoyed watching them just get like completely flustered and disoriented.

So, you know, like I had all these little tools and things and it just helped me make friends and kind of collect people and, you know, on one hand, I don't know how to ask for help. And then another hand, I have a bunch of people who I was able to develop relationships with. And then. If I ever needed something or asked them for something, they would know it was important because we had this relationship for this long length of time.

And I never, it was never transactional.

Scott: Outside looking in. Cosign both of those. My experience of you, Kamalah, is you are incredibly self reflective and self aware.

And that it's something that, whether it's like the journaling, and that ritual and practice, that you've described to me in the community around the journaling, you know, it's all part of that art of being a reflective, aware person. And I'm just curious, like, what your relationship is with that self awareness superpower.

Kamalah: There was this other moment, right, that I realized that especially in the storytelling, like I can tell my story from a much more empowering place.

So every superpower I have started off, I'm sure as like a trauma or a place of like insecurity or anxiety or whatever. And then also like that first child thing about like figuring out like, you know my, my environment, my world, the grownups that I think are supposed to have it all together.

They do not have it all together. You know, my parents were very different in their sibling sets. Right. So I had this like wonderful mashup of ingredients that turned me into this person that I was like. I could have the trauma of always being in a new environment or having parents that You know, we were all growing and learning together, or I could have great awareness and sensitivity. Right. So it's like, it's both and for all of these things that all of these things that are now superpowers that came out of a need that I had in a way to protect myself or operate in the world or understand my environment.

And Then my career, I think, has like, it's like parallel tracks, right? Like being a human being, having an experience, then learning something, then developing this superpower. Right. So it's like, where am I a magician? And where am I just like a really hard worker? 

Scott: Mm.

Kamalah: Oh, and the self awareness and reflection that came from. You know, some undiagnosed learning disabilities, perhaps, and some needs and, you know, little ADD that nobody paid attention to because I wasn't really hyper and I got good grades and then moving around. So just always feeling like there was something wrong about me that I had to fix.

Then made me always like every single experience I had, I'm just like, what could I have done differently? Is there a thing that I need to learn? Should I go learn it? Are there people that I can go to for help and support and because I always felt like something was wrong with me It made me a really good listener and I will take advice you know Even if it's hard or it's scary, I'm gonna do it

Scott: Mm hmm. Mm 

hmm. 

Kamalah: So that's, self awareness and also self awareness has helped me. I've always been thanked for my honesty because it gives other people permission to be that honest and to say things that they're holding in.

And it's always served me because I get some feedback and I get to say what I need. And So it's turned into something really powerful and helpful and supportive that spurs me on.

But it started from a place of me trying to figure out how can I be better?

Scott: Yes, yes. I'm thinking Kamalah, like, that very concrete example you gave of being, like, a young person and having anxiety in social settings. And realizing, all right, there's this kind of gut wrenching anxiety, and then watching, you know, watching your mom developing your own kind of tools in that, and then taking something, to use your word, as a script, and then Turning it into something that's actually a strength.

It's more than just kind of like a rote. I'm going to ask you this question now. It's something that is this kind of core strength and talent. So like that self awareness and adaptation in moments like individual, institutionally, in a community.

 I knew that like, you can't actually harm me, right? you're not going to have something that you can hold over my head because I know all my faults.

Kamalah: I know all my things. And even if you tell me something, I'll be open to it because I can imagine a world where what you think is true, even if I don't know it yet. And that freedom I think is where that sense of confidence comes from. It's a little pulling into the, I lived a lot of lives already, so you really can't tell me anything, but it's also that like, I know that I've built a way of operating where you, you're not going to phase me.

Scott: Mm hmm. Mm

Erin: That's really powerful. I was, I'm combining some reflections from what you shared so far. And I think this idea of your strengths emerge from your needs, such a powerful theme. And it struck me, you said earlier that you rebelled against the core curriculum, like wasn't, wasn't there, didn't feel like the right fit for you.

And yet teaching is now one of your superpowers. And I, and so you found a way to access. Education and the art of teaching in your own way, you've blazed your own trail and I think that also feeds into that relationship building skill because you can appreciate how differentiated learning styles can be based off your own experience.

Kamalah: Well, I, I call it making school out of your life. Right. If I look at an MBA, like when I had friends that were doing MBA programs, I was like, that's my whole career, your whole curriculum, I can tell you which year I learned this, which boss taught me this so again, this wandering around really is an apprenticeship.

I've been childless and unpartnered for so many years that I've had tons of time to spend after hours with the CEO. Or, you know, I've got time and freedom and availability and I know how to do a lot of things so I'm going to be doing a little bit of finance .

I know the analogies, right? I know how, what I've done translates into the thing that you think is important. And so I'm going to let you know that I may not have all of these sort of like credentials, but I know how to do things. 

Erin: Can we, can we take that to a more tactical place? Because I think a lot of our listeners who are trying to kind of. Maybe thinking about a career transition at one point or another and have to take a myriad of experiences that may or may not include, you know, the advanced degrees and the certifications and things and translate them such that.

 Employers see the fit that they feel they have for certain roles. you've done this in your career as you've applied for and secure different jobs, you're also doing it now, I would imagine as an entrepreneur. And figuring out the goodness of fit of various opportunities that come your way. So how do you connect all of that experiential learning? Like how do you make it tangible to the folks that you're talking to such that there's kind of trust and belief that you're the right fit?

Kamalah: I'll start with it doesn't always work but it's worked often enough. So I would say again, it's this like, well, if you want to sort of like get ahead, right, like think of yourself as like the same way a mediocre white guy thinks of themselves.

Right. So I would be in places where. I was told that I couldn't do a thing because I didn't have X, Y, Z credentials. I take whatever job they would tell me that I did fit into. And then I would be in the role, being as good as a person that did get hired, or better than the person that did get hired.

And I wasn't disagreeing with them, right? Because, alright, you have your standards, you have your requirements and prerequisites. That's fine. I, you know, I'm not necessarily fighting you on that, but then I was just like, all right, well, what does that really mean? I was doing my AmeriCorps placement.

I was working at this nonprofit. And I was like, well, I have some time I'll read over this grant and then I read it and I was like, you know, here's how I think you roll out this program. Here's the things that I think you need to implement. And she's like, oh, you're really kind of doing this business analyst work.

I was like, somebody told me I'm an analyst. All right, it's going on my, it's going on my resume. I'm an analyst.

Erin: you jumped in, you gave it a try. So that experience, a learner, you followed your intuition to, to have the experience, and then you're kind of realizing a new set of skills or a new opportunity.

Kamalah: I want to craft this work life for myself that's involved in. All my superpowers and my talents and things that I know how to do because there's space for all of it.

Right. If I step away at the place where I know this is not a skill, even though at nonprofits, job descriptions are written for like five different people. That's not one person. Right? So I know the one person that I am in that job description and I fight fiercely to only be that person and then I show you how financially it makes more sense for you to only hold me for that part.

And then let's pull in these other people who can carry the work on, further.

Scott: Mm

Kamalah: And we can all have a good life, we can all have income, we can all have a couple of benefits like, that's, those are the, like, the little places where we could make these easy pivots and these easy adjustments, but we fight it because we've always done something another way.

We want to be innovative, but our internal culture is actually really antiquated. Like, I'm a walking example that you can't just worship these credentials as you're trying to execute this work.

You have these outcomes that you want to hold. The people who are going to help you do those outcomes are not necessarily people who have a degree in this. They're people who have done it. it requires intimate relationships, intimate knowledge, right? If you're a human service organization and you're solving for poverty stuff, this is like family habits.

This is many generations of a thing. You got to get in that house. You got to get all up in the business and got to know what their relationships are with each other and their family and their employer and stuff like that. You can't do that in an intake session. You can't do that in just like your regular evaluation, but you need all of it.

together to be able to make things happen. And so I'm fighting to help them see not just how to bring those elements in, but that person that's doing that thing that you can't do just because it's in the form of a domestic worker, like they are as valuable and should be compensated at a level in the same way as your social worker because they're doing different parts of a whole thing that you need.

Scott: Mm

Kamalah: That's my, that's my soapbox.

Scott: I, and I'm thinking Kamalah, this relates to a conversation Erin and I had with another Jumpstart alumnus Dr. Melinda Day, who was a Jumpstart Boston Corps member and who has spent part of her career since. Advocating for and building systems so that individuals get credit hours for work experience and this, you know, and it really kind of know, touches on what you're talking about and, you know, we have these like very binary rigid systems of evaluating people's experience not realizing that it comes in so many shapes and forms.

Erin: I'm struck by the care that clearly comes through as you're talking about your work. You, you care deeply. You're in a relationship. you're, you're driven to serve and there's a real intimacy and depth of those connections that comes through as you're talking. I'm curious to know, How does that translate or not translate to some level of work-life balance for you when you do care so deeply and you're so all in, which is my impression. perhaps my bias. I'll own that. So yeah, tell us about how you balance or integrate how, whatever word you want to use work in life.

And if you've approached the ledge of burnout, how did you either get out or walk it back?

Kamalah: I've had like three very specific moments of burnout in my life, I think. I was like, oh, this must be what a nervous breakdown is, because I feel like I can't do no more things.

Erin: Look at the self awareness that was also in that moment.

Kamalah: I was like, oh, I am gonna die. Okay! 

Scott: Uh, Uh, 

Kamalah: Okay do I want to, am I ready? I could, it'd be a nice sleep. I would say when I was running the jumpstart site in Baltimore I did that for five years. I was the lone staffer of it. I was at a university. So I think there were, there were elements of it that I did.

Amazing. What I wasn't able to do during my time is really build it and grow it and entrench it into the university's fabric. That's something that I sort of look back and like, Oh, I wish I could have done that more or better. And so then because it didn't grow my—I never had extra budget for another staff member.

I wasn't receiving benefits. I didn't know about financial literacy. So I didn't know that I actually wasn't earning enough to live off of No, no, knock to jumpstart specifically or the university, you know, but it's just the situation that was there. and then I found myself, like I made so many friends on the budding social media because I was in the office every hour.

I'd wake up, I'd just go home and sleep for a little bit. And then I'd go back to work because I felt like I was never getting my work done. And there was always something to do. And then I had ideas. probably wasn't, you know, as effective with my time management, And then also because, you know, of all of those circumstances together, then like my life wasn't great. And I was tired and I was in a crappy apartment and so I was like, Oh, I think, I think I have to stop this and I think I have to go and I think I have to leave. And I also think I'm not growing this program.

I think I need to step away so somebody else can take it and do some things with it. I think I need to go home because. I always feel more stable around my family, and so I just need to go to the people who care about me, reset, and start again. and then like, times when I was teaching, just working all the time, you know, I can count on one hand how many vacations I've had over the last 20 years.

So I wouldn't say that there was balance, right? I definitely bled and sweat a lot for all of this, you know, magic that you have here right now. But I'm getting better at it because I know I'm at a place where I prefer how I feel when I've had rest, when there are other things to do, when I have a creative outlet, I feel better.

I'm going to work to try to become addicted to that so that I can release all of that time spent in other places. But I surely want that soft life, right? I like a handbag. I want to go on a vacation. I want a summer home somewhere. So like, right, I want communities to have what they need. And I also want to go to Bali, you know, so I'm developing it.

And I think back to that vein of listening to good advice or listening to people when they put something good in front of me. You know, all of this sort of societal focus that we have on balance and Putting good language to things that we just thought were a way of life, right? Like emotional labor, caretaking, burnout, work life balance, the importance of sleep and nutrition and movement. If I had those words, I don't know if I would have listened.

Cause I was like, Oh, the community needs me. These people need me, but I've learned that I need me. You know, and I do journaling, but I got dragged into journaling because I just haven't been able to sit still long enough to do it, but it came out of the pandemic. A friend of mine had done research on it and the importance of it and the benefits of journaling and that kind of reflective practice and community.

So she pulled together groups of us, her company's Kokoro, shameless plug. and I've been doing it for three years and, I have all of this evidence. I have all these volumes of things that I've written and reflected on and who I was at these moments in time. Right. Like I have this wonderful thing that I can look at and have a sense of accomplishment, something that's tangible and tactile.

 Like my word of the year, a couple of years ago was integration.

I was like, I have all these tools. I have this toolkit and I don't want to have to go in the closet from a toolkit. I want my toolkit on my lap,

Scott: Mm.

Kamalah: right? So that I can access the things and I can pull what I need so that in a moment where I'm again bumping up against the shoulds. I can be like, Oh, I got a, I got a tool for that. Let me, let me go and figure out a different way to, to be, or, you know, my friends have given me this language of like, what else is possible? What else could be true right now? So I'm working on it. It's definitely much better. I'm learning to just put some things down.

 I went on this Vipassana retreat in 2018. I highly recommend it. Best thing that ever happened to me. And I came away from that realizing that I think in like pictures. So I've been thinking of this cup and how do I fill the cup?

But actually, I need a gallon to be able to give you a cup of anything. Right, I dip this cup into this well of things that are there and that's when you can have extra. But I've been like thinking that I'm pouring from an empty cup, but all I really got it is a little water residue at the bottom, you know, that the cup that's sitting in the in the dish tray that didn't get upside down and I'm just like splashing desperately trying to trying to wet you with something.

Erin: Less. 

Kamalah: Yeah. 

Scott: Yes. 

Kamalah: I got my empty cup again and I'm like, Oh, how do I fill it? And it takes a long time to fill a cup. So I was like, you can't have nothing from me unless I got a gallon.

Scott: Yes.

Kamalah: I got a gallon, then we could talk about what cup you have access to. You can't have everything.

Scott: Kamal, will you just say the um, the name of the retreat that you went on again? 

Kamalah: Oh, it's Vipassana. I mean, it's a whole thing. I could, we could do an episode just on Vipassana, but what was appealing to me, it was like, wait, you mean I can have 10 days and nobody can talk to me and I don't have to talk to anybody else? Yes. I wasn't paying attention to the rules.

I didn't know what they were going to feed me. I didn't even really fully know where I was going, but I was like, quiet? 10 days of quiet? Absolutely. I'm down. And then during the 10 days, the third day I had this overwhelming sense of joy and appreciation because it's set up where all of your needs are taken care of.

You're eating incredibly wonderful nutrient dense food. You're meditating 10 hours a day. And I felt embarrassed by how it felt extravagant to sit

Erin: Mm.

Kamalah: hours and have people feed me and serve me 

Erin: What were the underlying motions there? Because it felt extravagant, but there's, there's underlying feelings.

Kamalah: Oh, then I had to be like, Oh, I deserve it. And it's wonderful. And, you know. The, you know, definitely like a, I don't deserve, which is, even though I know all of the stuff around it, it's even hard to get out of my mouth because logically and intellectually like, of course I think I deserve everything, but does my behavior, does the language I use about myself, is it showing that I really believe that?

Not so much, and I want to get to the place where the confidence that people see the good vibes that I think I give people doesn't, to me, feel like smoke and mirrors and that there's all of this stuff under the surface that if you knew all that was going on, you wouldn't, you wouldn't love me so much. 

I want to be liberated from those kinds of thoughts. And I don't dwell in them too much, but they do creep up, right? Like that's my

reflex. Is that there's something wrong and there's something that's got to be fixed and that this is not an endeavor that's worth time.

And this is not something that people respect. And, you know, I do have those things, but know, they're not loud and they're not as and I've been giving the protector little girl in me, like she's, she's getting to retire and we're going to give her a new job and she's getting like a ex officio, you know, emeritus role in the throne because she has a whole thing that she said she wants.

And she's like, if I'm going to step to the side and make space for other people, I need to be worshiped. I need to be thanked. I need a scroll.

Erin: Yeah. She has some demands that you're happy to meet. Yeah.

Kamalah: hmm. I was like, Hey, fair enough. I was like, I need you to focus on something else because we want a different life.

Erin: We outgrow those inner critics sometimes, but their energy is still in us. So it's a, it's a hard task, but I'm not surprised to hear that you're up for it to figure out a way to redirect that energy to serve whatever purpose you have now 

Kamalah: Yeah. 

Erin: You told me earlier that your word for 2024 is enchant.

Can you tell us, as you look forward to the year ahead, what are you excited about?

Kamalah: I know that these words that I choose every year do lots of work, even when I'm not thinking about them. So I'm excited that that's the word that's going to be working on my behalf next year. I believe that there's going to be magic because I. I've been working really hard over the last, I mean, my whole life, but I feel like there's some things that are coming into fruition that I'm going to be able to be in a reaping place from the investments that I've made in myself and others and my business.

You know, I have done some work to realize the places where I have been either sabotaging or. not delegating, right? I think there's a team that's coming to be so. That's exciting. I am open and ready for like love and filling in that part of my life. That I've been avoiding maybe and that I know is out of a trauma but I feel like it's healing so I'm excited to see what is going to come about with that. So I believe in serendipitous things. And so when something comes in my path, I'm going to do it. I'm going to step forward. 

Scott: Kamalah, I am enchanted. This conversation has been full of enchantment and I am all here. I feel like Erin, we have to do this 12 months from now, at least circle back with Kamalah because I want to hear about the year of enchantment.

Kamalah: Ooh, me too.

Scott: You know, planting a seed.

Kamalah: Yeah. No, I, I feel, I, I'm just so flattered and it's been so fun to even hear. My own answers for some of these questions because the title of your podcast was a little intimidating because it was like this moment where I said, Oh, me, have I, have I lived in lead? And I guess I, yeah, you know, I have, I have some thoughts about 

this stuff and, you know, and I feel very, very grateful. 

Erin: Well, I know, I know folks who tune in will feel grateful for your, your willingness to share at such a deep level, how, how you've evolved, embraced the needs you had, turned them into strengths and, and really have been transforming lives at the individual and organization on community level now for, for decades, 

Scott: Co-sign..

Kamalah: Thank you so much. And I really love that you all are doing this. I feel like this is like a beautiful, wonderful, elegant endeavor for you all. I'm not a good question asker. So I love being around people who– you guys are super smart. I admire you both so much. I love even watching what you all have done from afar.

And I'm so excited that you're creating this environment on this platform. I'm so excited to see what it evolves into.

Erin: Thank you for diving into it with us and helping us create it because you know, we're just off building the plan while we fly it.

Kamalah: I love y'all so much.

Erin: We love you too. 

to you soon.

Kamalah: All right.

Scott: Bye, Kamalah.

Erin: Bye.

 Wow, Scott. That was quite the conversation. What a, what a joy to spend

that amount of time with Kamalah. I was like, every time I talk to you, I come away with life lessons that I just, I take and put in my toolbox, just like she was talking about.

But I take so many of them, like this idea way back from the beginning of the conversation. She retired from childhood early. Definitely feel that. This idea that your strengths can emerge from your needs. And there's underlying persistence there that I think we didn't get into, but like yeah, she's, she is a voracious learner.

She just has a different way of doing it. And I, I mean, I see that in my own son actually. And so I just think that was really resonant and beautifully shared. And this idea of like, A simple tactic networking find the most powerful person in the room and ask them, why am I supposed to know you, which I feel like is phrasing she somehow she can offer in her tall heels and in her beautiful face, but so I'd probably have to find a different way to phrase that in my own squirrely

way, but I just that, yeah, that was just such a beautiful tactical way of thinking about How do you make the most of each opportunity?

Scott: Yes. Like, cosign all of that. I feel like my experience of that conversation and listening to Kamalah is, she just vibrates on a whole other level. I feel like I'm not going to do it justice, but, you know, when you're watching shows about the natural world and they, you know, talk about animals that can see more colors than the average, or, you know, that their ears pick up something that humans can't, there's something that Kamalah in her self awareness, in her honesty, and kind of like her warmth, that she picks up on translates, gives back, connects with on like a whole other level than most of us.

Erin: true. so glad to hear her talk about how 2024 or the last few years and now she's Turning some of that resonance back on herself and this concept of I need me and I need a full gallon if I'm going to give you a cup or a splash.

I just think again, such a beautiful way to teach it. I'm going to hang on to that. I'm going to be thinking about that. And I hope in 2024 or beyond, she'll be able to realize just how powerful a teacher she is in every interaction.

Scott: Enchant.

Erin: Enchant. Enchant. I love it. Alright, well, until next time.

Scott: This has been another episode of Lead and Live Well. Ciao. 

Erin: Bye, Scotty.

Scott: Bye Erin.

 



People on this episode

Contributor

Erin Cox

Host
Contributor

M. Scott Knox

Host