Lead & Live Well

What Got You Here Isn’t Going to Get You There with Divya Mani

• Season 2 • Episode 1

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In this engaging conversation, Scott and Erin sit down with Divya Mani to explore her intentional, values-driven career journey across consulting, brand management, and the education sector. Divya reflects on the choices and chance moments that shaped her path, how becoming a parent reframed her approach to work and life, and why she believes education is the ultimate lever for expanding opportunity. She also shares practical tools for leadership, along with her hard-earned wisdom on growth, boundaries, and continuous learning. This episode is full of insight, warmth, and honest reflection for anyone navigating their own evolving path.


Hosted by Erin Cox and M. Scott Knox
Edited and Produced by Stephanie Cohen

Divya Episode
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Scott: [00:00:00] Hey Erin, 

Erin: Hey Scott 

Scott: Today we are so excited to be with Divya Manny, whose background includes work in the consulting space, brand management and strategic marketing, and has had a consistent through line and dedication to expanding educational opportunities for young people.[00:01:00] 

Welcome Divya.

Divya: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, and it's lovely to see both of your faces together in my little zoom room here.

Erin: That's the thing we only offer to our guests. We don't record videos for our listeners yet, so. You're welcome.

Scott: Well, Divya, we're so excited you're here. Today's, you know, this is really special for Erin and I because we have known you for a number of years and a few different career paths and and job opportunities. So we're so excited to tuck into some of our questions with you, and I think a great place for us to start is career transitions themselves.

So. Divya, how and why did you make the choices you've made along your career trajectory? How much was chance versus some intentional choices?

Divya: I love this question and I love answering it with the two of you because working with Erin and then you, Scott was where the biggest [00:02:00] transition where I really found what I wanna be doing. So heads up that's coming when I share this story. So I would say the biggest career transitions for me were first just going into consulting after college.

I think in this day and age probably consulting is a, a career that a lot of people know about and are like, that's what I wanna be when I grow up. I went into consulting 'cause I had no idea what I wanted to do. I had worked in a number. Well, really volunteered mostly in a number of different nonprofit jobs in college.

I loved working with kids, and I wanted to do something that made the world a better place, but that really was hard to narrow down. And so I chose consulting because I liked the idea of trying out some different sectors, some different types of work. And an observation I had about working in the nonprofit sector was, the mission always resonated, but the way that we were doing the work felt like it could be, and I didn't even really have the words for this.

I was an American history and literature major, but more efficient, more [00:03:00] strategic, more focused on the root causes. And so I thought to myself, let me go somewhere where I can myself become more efficient, strategic, useful, skilled, and hopefully after working through a bunch of different projects, I'll figure out something I wanna do.

And I was really fortunate. This is when I met Erin, that about three years into consulting, I transitioned full-time into our nonprofit practice at my consulting firm. And it was this like, this is it moment of we were working with Jumpstart where Erin was working at the time. And that feeling of if you want more opportunities for all kids, if you want to spend your time on doing something and, and and spreading interventions that make trajectory changing differences in kids' lives education is it. And I, myself was a very nerdy kid. I loved reading, I loved school. And so it just felt like this is, it was just such a, this is it moment for me.

And the next transition then is a little unusual 'cause. I had [00:04:00] decided I wanna be in the nonprofit sector. I want K 12, early childhood. This is a space that I wanna be for the rest of my life. And I decided to go to business school.

And so the thinking there was not that I, again, wanted to be a consultant or a business school business person forever. It was that in working with nonprofit clients in my consulting space, in some of the volunteer opportunities that I had. I saw there was a real need for some of the skill sets that I saw for my amazing colleagues in the consulting field.

Whether that was the strategic thinking, whether that was the marketing expertise, customer research, like all these for-profit disciplines that I really enjoyed learning about in consulting felt really useful. So my thinking was, let me get a bunch more useful skills. Let me build out this toolkit in business school and then I'll go take it to K 12.

And so all my essays for these very traditional business schools were about going back into education [00:05:00] and bringing some of the pieces together with the skill sets that I had and would build through business school.

And in business school, I had again, a choice. Do I pursue? Internship opportunities, full-time roles, straight in the education sector. Do I do more traditional business things? And what I chose was still in that direction of let me build out skill sets that I don't see in abundance in the nonprofit sector. And that I think could really help take missions further, help organizations grow faster. And so I pursued brand management in my internship during business school. And then I did that for three or four years after business school as well.

And so I think for me, those transitions were about exploration. Those transitions were about seeing a need and trying to grow my own capacity to fill that need. And then there was also a piece of it, which was, what do I enjoy doing? What gives me energy? And I reflected that in consulting, there was a lot of you write a PowerPoint, you do a presentation, and then you [00:06:00] hope everything goes well.

But I really liked like getting into it and seeing what happened and working with people like Erin, who was an amazing operator, right? Was in the details, thought about the end-to-end experience of the people on the team, the people we were serving. I wanted to get closer to that. And so part of the why for brand management for me was that it's a much more operational role that brings together the strategy and marketing and the doing.

And so I was thinking about how do I get those skill sets and then how do I find a role in K 12 where I can do both the strategy and the executing.

Scott: You know, I just a quick comment Divya. First, thank you for bringing us along on that, and I think that, you know, I'd be curious what Erin thinks about this, but. You know, one of my observations through, through my own journey in the nonprofit sector is exactly what you've shared around brand management and storytelling and general communications and external marketing ends up being like one of the last investments [00:07:00] that, that nonprofits prioritize for any number of reasons.

You know, like the work, you know, feels urgent and you know this, there's this tension around what you prioritize, but the power of really good storytelling and in brand awareness and marketing and what that can do for an organization and a community can be transformative.

Divya: Yeah, and I think it connects to this geekiness, right, that we all share, but the. The reason we do this work is we want people to have amazing stories, their own lives, to be stories in which they can realize their fullest dreams and they can navigate the twists and turns. And the way to bring to life organizations that are trying to create those stories for people is literally through storytelling, right? How do you do that? How do you bring that magic to life? How do you make it human?

And like, in the for-profit sector, something that really surprised me was how much we did dig into the individual psychology of customers of like, what is it that you [00:08:00] want, what are you trying to do? What is your life like around the purchase decision? And so even though that was like to make money, I think the insights from what does it take to really develop a product market, a product that people care about, wanna use, enjoy using, that resonates with anything that any of us are trying to do.

And so some of that, I think can be an important input into programming, but some of that also just helps tell the story of the work for different stakeholders who need to care about it, whether that's funders or potential employees or potential school district partners.

Erin: Really well said, Divya. I would expect nothing less. And I think. You know what I, one of the things I deal with a lot in my work is founder transitions. And I think a lot of times organizations like get off the ground because the founder is such a good storyteller and can really connect people as heads at hearts and wallets to the cause.

And then when that person [00:09:00] moves on and there's a new leader in place, it's like there's a need to professionalize that because it just doesn't come from the same place. 

The other thing I was thinking about Divya, when you were talking about the way that the work happens, like first of all, strategic, efficient and focused on root causes. Like I think those would be the three phrases I would use to describe you. So you've been like super consistent from day one and incredibly impactful in your work. And you were so clear on. What, like you, you really had a pathway. I think a lot of folks and a lot of our listeners are more of like a, a chance based approach, but yours was very much around choice and being very intentional. Like, okay, I've figured out my content area and now I'm gonna do this, and I figured out the approach I wanna take and now I'm gonna do this. And I just think that's really important to, to emphasize here and to call forward.

And I also wonder as someone who also went to [00:10:00] business school to bring those practices into the nonprofit sector, but also kind of to educate the corporate leaders about the other side a little bit. Like, oh, nobody's surprised that I was a little bit of a nudge. I wonder to what extent was it hard to maintain that discipline and that desire to get back into the education sector when you started to see like all the different possibilities that come from the type of schooling that you experienced?

Divya: Yeah, it's a great question. I think. So first of all, I'll just say I think it sounds, the path seems linear in retrospect, but so much of it was people. I like the one firm that I connected the most with, like I happened to go to some evening event and then I like really clicked personally with the people there. And then I learned that firm had a nonprofit practice and that's how I ended up at that firm. Right.

Proctor and Gamble, where I worked after consulting or [00:11:00] after business school was just like the people that I liked the most. And luckily they liked me back, but I do think there's always an element of chance.

But I, for me, a big decision making heuristic has been like, work does need to feel like a place that I can call home partially. And so that sense of connection with the people that I'm working with, values alignment is really important. And so there was a lot of like interviewing and like networking conversations that didn't go somewhere along the way.

I don't wanna make it sound like it was so intentional. And definitely the people has always been the guiding principle for me.

Erin: I think a whole bunch of listeners just had a big exhale. They're like, okay, good. But you are aligning the pieces in a really strategic way, which I think is just speaks to also how you approach things. Go on.

Divya: I think so when I was thinking, I had a couple, a few false starts of how do I make this transition post-business school from the for-profit world to the nonprofit world? 'Cause I was [00:12:00] like, when am I gonna go? When am I gonna go? And so Scott, when we met, it was through a local charter network, which I am still involved with, thinks the world of.

So I had a, a conversation or two about going to work there full-time, in a more operational role um, with another charter school network. A similar opportunity came up and it happened both those times that like as I was going to the second interview, I found out I was pregnant. And so because of my husband's job and just, I was like, I don't know that I can be the person that you call at 2:00 AM if something breaks, if there's a leak in a building at a school.

Nor with my consulting background did I actually have that expertise to begin with. So I started thinking much more like what are the skill sets? Like what are the functional roles in nonprofits that I'm actually bringing either real experience to, or at least like disposition skill sets, like natural ways of working.

And so again, happenstance and the pregnancy story comes in again, when I was 35 weeks pregnant with my now almost [00:13:00] 9-year-old, I got outreach from a former colleague who had been at the same consulting firm I started my career at with the founder of the nonprofit that I now work at, and they were looking for someone to do strategy, external relations, development and board. And I thought to myself, okay, I've done the strategy thing, external relations. I've done marketing strategy and consulting. I've done all this brand management work at a big marketing organization, Proctor and Gamble. And I've been at board meetings when we've presented stuff in my consulting time and development was one of those things, which I had literally zero experience at.

Everybody at the organization, like everyone who had fundraised before for our organization. We were only two years old at the time, hadn't been a fundraiser. They were just like passionate, great storytellers, seasoned leaders. And I thought of development as a skillset, which for a business person fit well. [00:14:00] And if I ever wanted to be in the nonprofit sector, say, would be a good, sustainable, useful career.

And I was like, let's, if you're game to figure this out with me, I'm game to do it with you. And so I feel so fortunate that we were at an organization that already had a number of funder relationships where we had a strong story that was meeting the market where it was, and it really just scratched my itch so much of doing the strategy work.

Like how do we talk about the strategy of this organization? How does it fit with a strategy of the funder? And where do those things authentically align? How do we tell really crisp stories? How do we make a case for financial sustainability? Like all of those little skill sets came together in such a fun way, and I got to talk to people all the time and build real relationships with people and as someone who didn't work in a classroom, I knew that there was only so close I could get to the work of an education nonprofit. So the thing I love about the development and marcom's work [00:15:00] is that without having that background, I still get to hear about all the cool stuff that's happening and asking key questions about it and tell the story of it.

And so I'm living vicariously through my amazing colleagues and through most importantly the kids and the teachers and the grownups in these communities. But that transition into development, like finding something that could bring skills that I had and then learn them in a totally new setting, apply them, and get real quick feedback like, did we get this grant or not?

So fascinating, so satisfying. And it's very concrete development. It's, It's a hard job, but you're like, I wrote this grant, we have this money. I wrote this grant, this team can do this work. And so. I think a lot of people talk about development as I'm an accidental development person. Like I just fell into this.

I certainly did, but I think it's such a fascinating and interesting and fun way to be in the social impact sector because you really get to know about a [00:16:00] lot of things inside of the organizations, a lot of things happening outside, and you get to connect those dots in a really fun way.

Scott: Divya. I just had like the accidental fundraiser, like rings so true for, for me. And I think of the person who, some of the people I've met. I've had the good fortune to meet who are really good fundraisers, I feel like are really good community organizers. There's like this parallel between those two skill sets of doing, kind of listening, expanding your circle, finding those connections, deciding how you, you know, expand the work over and over.

So I feel like there's such parallel work between good fundraisers and good community organizers. So I'm curious for if you'd be willing to share for those who are less familiar, can you tell us a little bit about the work of Transcend?

Divya: So Transcend is a national nonprofit. We're just closing out our 10th year, and we help communities reimagine and redesign schools so that every young person can thrive in a rapidly [00:17:00] changing world. We are seeing across the country communities recognizing that classrooms that were built for an industrial age aren't preparing learners for what's next for this AI age that we're all finding ourselves in.

And we have always believed that schools must be designed for continuous evolution. So we're helping schools build capacity for bold and lasting change, both specific changes they wanna make, but also when the next technological or societal change comes along, how are you prepared to evolve again? And so we do work directly with schools and districts, and then we share tools, research and models to help schools everywhere make the leap to extraordinary learning.

Scott: Amazing. It literally could not be more timely.

Divya: It just feels like, yeah it's cool. You know, you guys have been in organizations where you're like, we do this one thing, and it's like, this is the thing we believe in and we wanna do it. I feel like there have been so many moments in my eight years at Transcend where. What we have always been trying to do, got sharpened, [00:18:00] refined, and sort of like the crucible of we need this even more.

Right. In 2020, before 2020, I would say a lot of people were like, you innovation is a nice to have. It's not a need to have. Once we were all learning, virtually once kids weren't engaging, we're like, we need to find a way to engage kids heads and hearts. We need to be able to teach differently. We need to make the teacher role more winnable.

And so that was a big transition that really just made the work seem urgent and possible. And I think this AI moment is that again, like urgent, relevant, possible. We all need to be in this work. And it's really fun to just. See that as a mother but also see, you know, how AI is changing what we could be doing in schools, what it's changing, what each of us could be doing at work, how we do our work.

That has been like, I think the source of on, I love to think like something that I've really loved in each of the places I worked is I, when I closed my computer, at the end of the day, I'm a little smarter than I was when I opened it. [00:19:00] And I feel like with ai, that learning just how to use a completely new technology has been really fun.

Just geeking out on that. Hopefully we won't all outsource our entire brains to ai, but art's my friends.

Erin: Instead of watching a show a couple nights a week, my, my fiance and I, we play with a different AI tool because we're just like, we got, we have to make time to learn it, and it's super fun and there's so many, so I'm so glad there's organizations like Transcend that are helping. Schools and communities cut through the noise and figure out how to leverage this because there we are at risk with any technological innovation.

I think the nonprofit sector is at risk of falling way behind. And this is something that could, you know, cut our admins rate and make our work that much more efficient and impactful. And I think there's so much potential there that's that's really exciting. So I'm glad you're at the for glad and not surprised that you're at the forefront of that.

Now I'm gonna pivot [00:20:00] a little bit. You've mentioned how your pregnancies informed some of your choices and that you have an almost 9-year-old. How did that happen? Separate conversation, but curious to know how. Your approach to blending work and life has evolved over the different phases of your career and, you know, if you've got a current philosophy and some tips to share, I'm sure all our listeners would be all ears.

Divya: I would say early in my career, work was life. I worked a ton and I have always been like the most involved person. I gave tours of my school in middle school, college. I was in charge of recruiting in my consulting firm. So a lot of my extracurriculars, even in those early years were work related. I learned a ton and made lifelong friends, including my husband out of that.

But I came to realize after five years of consulting, especially coming out of that, looking at wanting to start a family, that wasn't sustainable. [00:21:00] When I became a parent, I was maybe a year into my time at PNG, and it was a big milestone and such a great reality check. I had a little person, I had to be there for.

Daycare closes, nobody's gonna pick him up. My husband travels a lot for work, but I also wanted to be there. And so it really taught me the value of boundaries, which is something that as an eldest daughter, as an Enneagram too, for those of you who are into that, like boundaries are not a thing that I'm great at.

But I was. I am leaving. And it was amazing because when I would sign back on the next day or whenever people figured it out without me, and that was really important to be like, reminder, you're part of a team. You have your gifts and it's really important that you're there for the other people in your life too.

And so I still have never had a job where I can be at every school event, but I figure out the things that are really important. So, for example, I love. Baking. And so my kids have a hot from scratch [00:22:00] breakfast 50% of the time because it's really easy to make pancakes in 10 minutes. That is just like a simple thing I can do.

I'm not like an amazing baker like my mom, but I'm a good enough baker and it allows me to get my vegetarian, older kiddo some more protein. And our teachers are amazing there with my kids all the time. And so how can I bake you some delicious things as well?

Erin: Are you taking signups for the delicious things? Because I'll add my names.

Divya: I have a whole spreadsheet of like 10 different pancake recipes. I love making pancakes. I love sending batter to people. Like when people have a new baby, I'm like, I'm just bringing a pancake batter. 'cause it keeps in the fridge anyway. 

Scott: Love that.

Divya: yeah, I am not Martha Stewart type except for pancakes.

I have like one or three, two things. I think so I think boundaries and then finding the things that are like, I'm not gonna be the number one class parent. I'm also not gonna be the person who's consistently at the office until 10 or 11:00 PM 'cause I, it's really important to me to be there for my [00:23:00] family and with my family at the end of the day.

I think the place, other than like those basic boundaries, the biggest aha in recent years have been about exercise. So, I like basically stopped exercising when I first had my. Sun and I didn't start again until after I completely stopped breastfeeding because the whole time I was either working or pumping or with my kid working, pumping with my kid.

And then afterwards I came back to a team where everybody else exercised at least like two or three days over lunch. And I, it was a great way to like spend time with my team, with legal folks. Like it was a great, it was fun and it was good, and I loved it, and I felt so much better about myself. Having made a choice for myself was so powerful.

Another milestone on this exercise journey was when we were all homeschooling and home working during COVID closures. I downloaded the Peloton app and started doing yoga classes on my Zoom, and even though I [00:24:00] could hear my whole family in every room around me for the 30 minutes, it was just, it was the zen that I needed.

And then most recently my husband fell in love with running during the pandemic and I fell in love with it now. So running is my therapy now. I love running so much, and in my forties, my ex exercise schedule is basically running and then other exercises that I have to do to not get injured from the running and then sleeping better so I can run better and eating better so I can run better.

And so it's a virtuous cycle.

Erin: Thank you for admitting that there are exercises you have to do when you are running a lot, because I think there's plenty of people who are like, running's not for me anymore.

Divya: Yeah.

Erin: Yeah. It's a process, but it's all good for you and that's what's important. I mean, I'm just always impressed you by.

Your eCom, this is not, these are not the [00:25:00] limitations of your skillset, but the, some things I really appreciate is both your ability to evolve and your ability to your self-awareness and ability to reflect that back like. I just find that so impressive, and I feel like every time I hear you talk about some form of your evolution, whether it's boundary setting or loving running, et cetera it just, it gives me faith in humanity that we can, that everyone can change and grow.

Everyone should aim to be like Divya and change and grow. That's what I think.

Divya: It's so accidental though, really. Right. You're like, let me just try this. I think to me, the thing that always, it's like those you know, atomic habits 1% better, but I remember the, I did this couch to 5K plan and I'm not like a running evangelist. You pick the thing if it's sourdough bread, you do you guys, like. 

Whatever the thing is that you enjoy doing that you can get better at, that gives you time for yourself, but also gives more of you to give back to other [00:26:00] people. Like that is such a gift that we each need to give ourselves, and it took me too long to realize that taking time for myself. Was what I needed to be there more for others.

Like that was just, it was, it's worth it for myself, but it's also worth it for like everyone around me. But I think the thing that always, like what I want for everyone is to find the thing where you're like, if I just try this, I don't know if I'm gonna be good at it. Lemme try it and see what happens.

And with running it was like, I tried it and that was slow. I could only run for one minute. At a time I'd have to take a break. Then it was two minutes and it was four minutes and then like over years got to like a half marathon. But like that ability to say just those small things, I can see progress.

To your point, Erin, change is possible. I think that's such important. Learning for each of us as grownups. It's something that I really want for my kids. And as I'm, I don't know. I can't remember if I, this was something that we talked about so much when we were in school, but I'm so inspired by the educators I interact with now who are [00:27:00] talking about it's safe to fail.

Let's try things like you learn just by doing things. We don't need to be perfect because I don't think that. That was in the air when we were kids, and I feel like so much of my life and career has been unlearning some of that perfectionism. Don't do it unless you're amazing at it. You know? Everything has to be a certain way.

Erin: That's a really important reflection. No the air in my childhood was full of people pleasing Catholic guilt and perfection. That was fun. Yeah.

Scott: It's a

Erin: combo. I'm growing out of that now.

Divya: the episcopalians don't have the guilt, but we had all that. Yeah, I don't know.

Scott: All right, Divya, I'm gonna shift us a little bit to one of my most favorite questions for leaders. And it's this topic of road bumps and rough spots, and I'm wondering if you can share with Erin and I, about what some of those rough spots have been for you as a leader and what you've taken away from those experiences.[00:28:00] 

And then what do you carry forward from those experiences that inform how you show up today?

Divya: I love this question. think a big aha for me. Like as I in my late thirties was what got you here isn't gonna get you there. And so thinking about early in your career, especially in consulting, it's all about being on top of every detail, responding right away, being constantly available. Really this perfectionism, people pleasing take into the max extreme.

And parenthetically, I've since learned that not only were those features of the workplace, like that job that I started out in, but those are things that are just like built into my personality based on my Enneagram type. So I'm like, oh, so I just ended up in this job that was perfect to activate the things that would obsess me. So how that showed up.

Transcend is a fast growing nonprofit. We're very entrepreneurial and we're a hundred percent virtual. And so the [00:29:00] way we communicate is through Slack and Google Docs. And I have this like Pavlovian reaction to having an unread message where I'm like, I need to respond right away.

I need to be right on top of it. And so I was finding and in development, as you all know. Much of the things, like anything that comes in, you probably do need to respond in a timely way. And so sorting through important versus urgent, knowing when I needed to protect my time and not that it was okay to not respond to everything was such a journey.

And I think in some ways it was that the thing that made me an excellent entry level person. Was still important when I was an early manager, became less and less important as I became more senior, and it just was hard to let go because I felt a safety in being the most responsive person, which like, let's be honest, I'm still like extremely responsive.

I'm, there's some like data on who sends the most Slack [00:30:00] messages and I am in the top five that our organization, but I'm getting better. Uh. So I think it's that reflection of like just knowing, being able to. Talk to yourself when you have that instinctive reaction and say, okay, this is what I wanna do, but is that the thing I really need to do?

Another thing that has helped me a lot has been putting together every week an Eisenhower matrix, which is like, what are the things that really need to happen? It's like my weekly five things, and then those are kind of like long tests. I have to protect them. I will not respond to slacks and emails and phone calls during that.

Those time when I'm working on those things. And then like shorter tasks that I can kind of fit in between that satisfy my urge to check things off and respond to people. What are things I'm gonna delegate and what are things I'm just not gonna do? 'cause they're high value. And that process of considering my time is valuable and really like taking that step back versus just responding because I wanna help people all the time.

It can become a complex for those of us in the [00:31:00] nonprofit sector to just respond, just help. And it's like, take a breath.

Scott: First of all, I've never heard of the Eisenhower Matrix, so, thank you for that. Going to be spending some time getting to know that a little bit better. And Erin and I were just chatting because we both had the same reaction to when you said what got you here isn't going to get you there. And I feel like that's gonna be the title of this podcast.

Divya: Hmm. 

Scott: There's such a, a theme there through what you're sharing today Divya and your career that, you know, embedded in that is growth mindset and adaptation. And I mean, that's definitely one of the themes that's coming up for me in our conversation today.

Divya: One of my favorite mentors from my first job said, " If you're thinking about a change, keep one foot on a rung that's steady." Right? Like hold one thing constant. I know how to do this. I feel confident. I'm good at it. [00:32:00] And then you could change one or two things, but don't change all the things at a time.

And I find that a really, really helpful guiding principle because you need that sense of like, I know what I'm doing here, but it would be boring if you only did the same things over and over again.

And I think as my roles have evolved at different organizations, just feeling out like what are the things I wanna hold constant? What are the things I wanna try and flex? Not all of which are gonna be a success, right? But like how do you keep that balance?

Scott: Love it.

Erin: I feel like you're already going here with the different things that you've mentioned. And because although I know that you said you've shared with us, you know, I'm, I'm dedicated to education, but I'm not, I haven't necessarily spent a lot of time in the classroom. You are still a teacher. I feel that in the energy you bring in the the evolution you go through, the self-reflection you offer, the advice you even have been giving in, you know, the last 20 minutes or so.

You [00:33:00] definitely have a way about you that I think inspires and educates others. I know I've experienced it. And so, if that's how you define teaching, you're still there. You know, not all classrooms have walls, is that what they say? But a along those lines, I wonder if there are other tips, tools, articles, training programs, resources that you wanna point people to because I know whatever you point people to will be worthwhile 

Divya: So I was so fortunate. I mean, as I said, I met my husband at my first job. like I ended up meeting both of you through that job. I ended up at the nonprofit that I'm at through that job. I think one of the most valuable things about starting out in consulting and in particular at Monitor Deloitte, where I started my career, was the emphasis on feedback.

And so we had regular feedback, training, and very thoughtful research-based. A mix of [00:34:00] business school professors and psychologists kind of came together to develop all the content. And so a couple of the tools that I love, we are literally just talking about them today at work, are first the ladder of inference, which is just a really helpful tool to say, you know, like, are my feelings in line with the facts?

And so if you think about each of us existing in this complex world, there's a lot of data everywhere. If you take any given situation, imagine that you are in a little pool and there's like full of data, like what's the weather like? Why did this meeting happen? Like what happened before? Who are all the people?

What are they bringing in? And you are just like in that pool of data as yourself. You could come in and you could say, I am just factually digesting everything that's happening in this meeting, and I am making completely logical conclusions. No human actually thinks that way. We all are coming in with our little thought bubbles or I didn't sleep well, or, oh, did I pay the [00:35:00] babysitter enough Did I like, do my Venmo? Like what did I do the thing that I was supposed to do? Oh, last time when I sent you this email, you didn't respond the way I thought you would, and so. There's actually no such thing as pure data that humans process and the ladder of inference helps us unpack some of that from how you get to what is objectively happening, to how I interpret it, to how I feel about it, to what that makes me say to what that makes other people think, to what that makes them feel, and then how I feel about how they react. And it's all the like verbal, non-verbal, emotional and mental things happening around a situation that contribute to how we interpret it. And so whenever I'm like, that felt tricky or I don't like what was going on there, I try to walk down that ladder and be like, what's objectively true? 

Scott: Hmm. 

Divya: was I, how did I interpret that? How did I experience it and therefore how did that make me show up? Are some of the conclusions that I took away from this different [00:36:00] than other people's? The most powerful thing about this framework for me is when you then go sit next to somebody else who is also in that pool of data or in that meeting and say, "When that happened or when that was said, how did you interpret it? What did you think? What meaning did you make of it?"

And you can kind of co compare and contrast and you can walk down from the top of your ladder where you're all in like, this is what I think happened and this person was wrong. And I was the only one who was right and dah, dah, dah down to like, oh, well you were thinking about this other meeting or this other deadline that I didn't even know about. And like that person over there just had like this huge thing happen in this other meeting or this other project, that probably is why they showed up the way they did.

And so it's this demystifying of the world and getting out of our own heads, getting back into the facts, but also acknowledging that our feelings about what happens and our interpretations have such power. I'm obsessed with it in an unhealthy [00:37:00] way.

Erin: Well, it's one, like the Eisenhower Matrix, I think it's one of those tools that you can use every day. Like there will always be a way to apply it and to learn from it. So I think it's a really helpful resource to introduce to other folks. Thank you for that.

Divya: The other sort of related tool that I think a lot about is balancing advocacy versus inquiry. And this is literally a tool that you can use to walk down your ladder of inference, but. I went to an amazing facilitation training a few years ago at the Interactions Institute for Social Justice. I. I don't know if it's still called that.

Scott: love them. 

Divya: Yeah. 

Where they had us just sort of sit with a partner and they talk about a problem that they're experiencing, and you as the listener, don't try to solve it. Don't try to do anything. You just ask questions. How did that make you feel? What happened next?

And the power of [00:38:00] listen, truly listening to a person, not listening to say the next thing, but also just like deeply inquiring what happened and what were you thinking, and then what. You can see how you learn so much that you wouldn't have heard. And the speaker also starts to unpack so much of what made that feel that way or what else was going on that's relevant.

And so when you feel like you're coming in hot with an idea and you're like, I think we should do this, the more that you can turn off that advocacy and go to the inquiry, the more powerful it is. And I think the coolest thing about advocacy versus inquiry is that you come in so certain and then you learn things you never would've thought of by just asking.

Erin: And maybe you would've been shut off if you just focused on advocating. Yeah. You just described coaching in a nutshell. Thank you for that. And I can't tell you how many times when you take that approach, someone will start a thought by saying, I didn't think about it this way until I said it out loud, [00:39:00] but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

There is something about the power of curiosity to inspire that verbal processing that gets to a deeper level of understanding for sure.

Divya: Jeff Wetzler, who co-founded Transcend, just wrote a beautiful book about this called Ask, which talks about the Ladder of Inference, talks about all of these things. So I will send you all the link, but it's a wonderful book and just like so practical for leaders and humans, I think.

Scott: Oh yeah, please send the link.

Erin: We'll put it, we'll put it in our show notes for sure. Divya, I feel like this could go on for 1700 hours but we are at the end of our time together for now. Maybe to be continued. But thank you so much for sharing a bit about your journey and your evolution. And your tools and tips from, on everything from prioritizing your workday to balancing work and life, to staying curious.

They're all super, super [00:40:00] helpful and we just, you know, we enjoy every minute we spend with you. So this has been a real treat.

Scott: Thank you so much Divya. The through line as Erin lifted up earlier of kind of the thoughtfulness and reflection was so present in our conversation and loved the last hour.

Divya: Thank you both. It was wonderful to see you and hear you again, and I know we'll be in touch.

Scott: Absolutely.



Contributor

Erin Cox

Host
Contributor

M. Scott Knox

Host