Love & Your Truth

E5 - Natalie Lyla Ginsberg: Psychedelic Assisted Therapy in divorce mediation, couples therapy, and intergenerational healing.

• Dr. Sabrina Hadeed

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The script explores the use of psychedelics in conflict resolution, peace-building, and therapy, featuring insights from Natalie Lyla Ginsberg of MAPS. It highlights research on ayahuasca's impact on Israeli-Palestinian relations and MDMA in couples therapy. Emphasizing ethical integration, the importance of ceremony, and addressing intergenerational trauma, the discussion showcases psychedelics' potential in fostering empathy, understanding, and healing within families and communities. Specific attention is given to the idea of using psychedelic medicines in divorce mediation and couples that wish to navigate a more amicable ending. 

Stay connected with Dr. Sabrina Hadeed on Instagram @dr.sabrinhadeed

Learn more about Dr. Hadeed and the legal psilocybin program for individuals and couples operating in Bend, Oregon on her website:
www.loveandpsychedelics.co

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

So welcome to another episode of the micro dose, your marriage podcast. Today, I'm very excited to have the amazing Natalie Ginsberg joining us. She is the Global Impact Officer with MAPS, and for those that don't know, that's the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Science, which she joined, I believe, in 2012. 14. She founded the policy and advocacy department and served as its director for five years. She also initiated and co developed maps health equity program as the global officer. Natalie works for the responsible integration of psychedelics into mainstream culture to help set the setting for an ethical global movement. It's so great the way that's written.

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

Thank you.

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

It's also important Yeah, it's important to mention that before joining maps, Natalie worked as a policy fellow at the Drug Policy Alliance where she helped legalize medical cannabis in her home state of New York and worked to end New York's race based marijuana arrests and promote racial justice related to mass incarceration, particularly affecting people of color. So Natalie's been very busy in her life's work so far and is doing amazing things. I'm so glad you're here.

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

Thank you so much for inviting me here. I'm so grateful and excited to have this conversation with you in particular. So thank you.

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

You are so welcome. You are so welcome. There's so much to get to, I mean, even that bio I had to. Shrink it down. Like, you're that you're just that amazing. There's just not enough. So, for those that aren't familiar with you, I hope that they will check out all of the efforts that you and the various teams that you partner with, are working on. So, as I had mentioned before we got started, I wanted to anchor today's conversation, in a personal story because I'm a big fan of, Of existing in a way where we are constantly reconnecting with, where is this coming from for me? And so my personal share is related to how I first came to even know who you are and the work that you're doing. And so I'll anchor in that story. So the story is that, it involves a visit that me and my father took to, his home country of Syria. And the last visit that we made was in 2009, I believe. And we haven't been back since due to the war unfortunately that began, I believe 2011 when we were there, I have been several times, I've been going since I was little. And when I was there with him, it was a really special trip because usually, you know, I have three siblings, but this particular trip was just me and my dad. So it was really special. And usually when we go, it's like a big family affair, but it got to be this intimate trip with him. And we. Often, when we're there, we'll tour this, ancient, thousand year old medieval castle. It's called the Crac de Chevalier. And it's one of the, it was one of the oldest preserved medieval castles in the world. And it's located just outside the village where he grew up, and it's, also very close to the border of Lebanon, which is important to mention, in the context of what the castle is often used for. Anyway, so I took this trip to Syria with my father and it was, and it was amazing. We have these pictures of us at the castle and, he's being playful and is wearing the traditional, headdress for Arab men, in the area, which I think is called an Ageli. And we're smiling and the wind is blowing in our hair and we have these just epic shots of us, in this, Historical site and, and later, when we came back, so fast forward to 2012. So in 2012, we learned that the castle, unfortunately, had, had suffered a lot of damage due to the, to the bombings. and when I heard that news. I was surprised that I, that I had an emotional reaction, like I had been there. I had been there as a child, running through the, these incredibly, I mean, thousand year old hallways of this castle and had such beautiful memories of being there with him. So to hear that this. That this site had been, had been injured in this way really struck me.

to picture this. Castle that had so many amazing memories for. Me. And for many. To picture it. You know, inhabited by people, sheltering for war. And all that comes with, it was a deeply emotional reality. My heart and soul. Soul are always tied to the efforts of peace in the middle east. And. We'll continue to be connected to the. You know, human experience for me and my family and the history. Of the people in the land. And so this is a good segue into how. How this connects to you and your work. It is related to the study that you were a part of.

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

That was published in 2021, it was 2020 or 2021, um, came out and. was it called the relational processes in ayahuasca groups of Palestinians and Israelis? That's right. And I think I had heard whisperings of a study going on, but I didn't really know, you know, and then it came out and that was like my first, getting familiar with your name. And I was like, I want to know this woman. I want to understand, her part in this and how this came to be. And I had this very joyful, visceral reaction of Oh my goodness, this is exciting stuff. You know, like to be using psychedelics in, in an arena that is about, potentially peace building and conflict resolution and, and all of that just really, it almost restored hope for, for me in many ways. And I was just eager to, to learn about it. And then, our paths crossed when I was in, The, Topanga Hills in California, doing my psychedelic assisted psychotherapy training with the amazing Lauren Taus and your visit was a surprise. You know, she had announced, Oh yeah, there's this person that's going to come. And I was like, wait, that name sounds familiar. And so I got to meet you in person and, and the rest is history, but, Yeah. So I'm just so excited to, to have you here to have this conversation I know we're not going to spend too much time talking about that study that I referenced, but it certainly anchors in my interest in and passion and kind of heart center place of being interested in the way psychedelics are being used in conflict resolution. And specifically as it relates to couples and family systems, which is going to be our focus. Without further ado, I will turn it over to you, for any thoughts you have about, about any of that. And then there might be some specific questions that unfold from there.

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

Oh, wow. And just thank you for sharing that experience and story of yours and certainly, as you said, I do see a lot of overlap between couples work and working, you know, in conflict transformation and peace building. yeah, that initial study that you're referring to was Actually, me working with, a Palestinian, non violence activist named Antoine Saka and Dr. Lior Rosman, who's an Israeli neuroscientist. And the three of us had a really beautiful process of basically traveling all around Israel. Israel and Palestine interviewing Palestinians and Israelis who had sat in ayahuasca ceremony in together. Um, and they had sat in all different ceremonies, you know, the, the guidelines were people who had just sit in any kind of mixed community. So the, that study wasn't explicitly understanding conflict resolution. It was kind of like the step before it was, understanding what happens if people sit together, even if their intention is not conflict resolution. Their intention is, is healing, um, and a personal journey. But of course there are very different circumstances for a Palestinian. To participate in for an Israeli. And there are so many opportunities actually in Israel for Israelis to sit in Ayahuasca. So for the Israelis in the circles, it was kind of self selected. There were Israelis who are really open and interested in being in space with Palestinians, from the Palestinian perspective. At least years ago, when we were doing these interviews, there were very few options. So, you know, if people wanted to experience ayahuasca, they were going to go sit with Israelis. So even that kind of was a bit of a difference. But, as you can read in our paper, we really discovered some very beautiful experiences that emerged and impacts, that came from that. And so much so that it Motivated us to develop a second phase of research that Lior led, and Samuel Wadd, who is another Palestinian peace activist based in, Bethlehem, Bejjala, he and Lior kind of led this next phase of work where they actually, invited activists, artists, from all around Palestine and Israel to go to Spain with the explicit intention of peace building, and sit with Ayahuasca. So they'll be publishing, I think they've published a bit from that and will publish a bit more, but that was also a really interesting, Next phase, though, again, that was also working with people who are very interested in the work and are already open. So, one of the things, actually didn't show such a shift in openness because people started open when they went, but they still found some really beautiful things.

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

Yeah. Yeah.

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

one of the core things I'll speak to, of course, there are many, um, is around intergenerational historical trauma that both communities experience that the community, that the experiences of trauma are very intertwined. Um, so having these shared ayahuasca spaces allowed people to both process their own Traumas, but also to better understand like the so called other trauma and kind of how they, um, interplayed. And I believe that's a really core part of anything moving towards peace, transformation, um, healing. to both be able to understand where you're coming from and understand the very real fear and pain that you know is feeding into your mind as as people are approaching all of this and to hold that in the same you know hand with understanding the so called others experiences and you know right now when we're looking at the absolute horrors that are ongoing in this region I just see so much of it is driven by fear and mistrust and pain. And so my prayer is that the more people are able to access healing, the more they'll be able to shift their mindset of healing. Fear and not trusting the other because when you're in fear, your mode, your mode is to go into protection, defense, you know, and that really doesn't allow you to have the spaciousness to hold compassion and understand. the broader experience. And I will say that, you know, that doesn't mean that I think psychedelics will just heal everything and that all we need is some therapy and it'll be fixed. Of course, there's major systemic issues that need to be addressed and the violence needs to stop in order for people to be able to heal. But I really do believe that healing both on the individual level, but also on the community level is. is really necessary, for anything moving forward.

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

Yeah, I love that you're bringing that up and you know this this how we think about individual versus community and intergenerational healing Because even that even the first study, I think you all made it very clear that it That it wasn't this sweeping, generalized intention this broader peace, peace effort will be affected. But instead it was more like, let, let's start with the self. Let's just start with these individuals in. in this setting, in this group. And even though in, in most, you know, psychedelic work that I've been a part of, even though that's typically where we start, it has a ripple effect. It has a ripple effect. Like when you focus on yourself and, and healing, the things that come up for you, the traumas, you know, whether they're more recent or from childhood, um, the more. You impact others in a positive way. Um, and, and especially as we say, yeah, as we, as we segue into my interest and excitement about couples work and family systems work. And, because I'm not just interested in couples work in the traditional sense of like helping couples be stronger and healthier, although that's a part of it and is important, I'm really interested in actually supporting couples in. Having happier endings, having healthier, happier endings, particularly where kids are involved. And this is where we get into that intergenerational wellness because the better endings we can have, right? The better we can, the healthier and happier we can dissolve, then the more likely we are to have healthy, happy beginnings. And then the more, and then it's a ripple effect, right? And so I'm really curious to hear your thoughts about the couples work where psychedelics come in. Thoughts about anything that I've said. Yeah.

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

I'm just, I knew we had so much resonance because something I've been speaking about for a few years now is this idea of what MDMA assisted divorce mediation might, might look like. And frankly, no one else seems to be taught, you're really the first person who brought that up before I did, so I'm just like, So happy to hear that. Literally in the study I'm developing, I keep fighting to add these questions in. We're, developing a study with Columbia where we're interviewing MDMA couples therapists, just to understand how they approach the work. And so that's a question I kept insisting we add like What, have you worked with couples who are actually ending? And also, the results of couples therapy like should not always be does this couple stay together? And in fact, a lot of the metrics evaluating couples work are around that. It was. Impossible for us to find metrics that held the range of like, the end result being like happiness and satisfaction with, respect for each other. There's so many ways that we could be measuring the outcome of this. And, you know, another question I have is that sometimes MDMA couples work does help people stay together. That maybe shouldn't be together there. That's a question I'm interested in exploring. Exploring, you know, the research is so early right now. But, yeah, I think that,

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

Well, I think it It may have to do with also the way that people, what they're bringing in when they come to work with you. So like the couples work and you know, I'm in Oregon, so now I have the privilege beginning in January of, of working as a licensed psilocybin facilitator, which Oregon makes us keep separate from therapy, which everybody knows there's going to be overlap, but. That's a different, that's a different podcast episode. We can get into that. The way that I framed it based on the, 20 years worth of marital family system couples work that I've done is there's a screening for what is your hope. And if your hope is we want to stay together, we're very certain, you know, some people, some couples come in and they're really certain, like we're not giving up on this. We haven't even considered divorce. We just want to get better. And then other people come in. And they want clarity. It's like discernment counseling. Like they're saying, we're not even sure if we are a good fit and we want some support in trying to get more clarity on whether or not we should stay together. And then the third is for folks, and this is the one that I think you and I agree with is so neglected in therapy in general is when couples know that they want to dissolve. When they know that they want to end and they have a desire to do it in a way that is maybe famously known as conscious uncoupling, the approach that was brought to us by Catherine Woodward and then made popular by Gwyneth Paltrow and, now it's maybe a little more well known, but there's just not a lot of support for couples that, Want to, I mean, even when you're working with a couples therapist, usually when it doesn't work out, they're like, okay, here's some referrals to some individual therapists. And that's where I'm sorry, but the field needs to stop doing that. It's so harmful. And that's where I'd love to hear what do you, what do you think your thoughts are? Cause I get really excited about the topic of psychedelic intervention, you know, like a psychedelic journey for a couple that wants to get to a place of conscious uncoupling. And we want, they want to expedite that potentially. I know it's not always a guarantee, but potentially because of the urgency of like, we want to do the best we can for our family in this moment and make our way through. And I think psychedelics can really help with that because of the effects that they have on their ability to like disarm those internal defenses and help challenge the long held resentments and softening. Right. So yeah. I mean, that's conflict resolution work, right? Like internal conflict as well as conflict relationally.

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

totally it is. It's deep work. And first I'll share that. And I'm excited to share my. Thoughts, but we have not done the research yet. And though I'm actually starting my practice again, I'm a social worker. I have not been working, this whole time with couples. So this is just based on lots of anecdotes and working with lots of trainings and therapists, but I do suspect when, when MDMA or psychedelic is used in a divorce or in a separation that it will be really important to be intentional about when, um, And I know especially, you know, you described the three situations of a couple wanting to stay together, being unsure, wanting clarity, and wanting to separate. But something I see a lot is that often the couple is not on the total same page. So,

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

Right. One person wants in, the other one wants out or yeah,

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

like that's actually an extremely common situation, which is very difficult. And so that's one where I would be extra mindful also with MDMA, right, where it can put you in quite a vulnerable, loving space that might be extra difficult for someone who maybe wants to stay together and their partner doesn't, or. So even that's one level that for me is really important to consider. But yeah, but then after that, when the timing feels right, where people feel able to go into that, space with each other because there is vulnerability, there's a lot of empathy, there's a lot of love, which can feel unstable, sadly, for people sometimes when they're putting up their guards, especially in the, in a breakup, part of that process is kind of trying to disconnect a bit from the energetic connection that you have. So, I do suspect that just starting off with psychedelics right away might not be the best for everyone though in some cases it, of course it's like so dependent on the context, but I think in general when, when people are a little more kind of like, they understand what's happening and they've gotten a bit used to that. Then I think this work can be deeply powerful when there are still some frustrations and resentments that might be bubbling to be able to come together with a shared intention. And I think even developing that shared intention before the session will be really fun, so necessary.

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

And knowing where they're not aligned, knowing where maybe, right? Like that's super important because if one person has got that agenda of hoping that they'll win the other person over, that's got to You know, we've got to talk about that. You know, that that's a part of the work. So you had mentioned before we met today, that you were working on, a protocol or an approach or, and I don't know, sometimes when these are being developed, you can't talk it, you know, too, much about them, but what you can share, I would love to hear.

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

sure about the couple's work.

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

Yeah. The

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

Sure, so there's two, um, pieces of that. The one that's farthest along is this qualitative study with Columbia, where, yeah, we're interviewing. therapists who, are conducting this, the one that I just mentioned. So the protocol it's just around interviewing to actually understand the very wide range of protocols that underground therapists are using right now. I mean, that is something very interesting. Couples. Therapy with psychedelics has been going on, with MDMA since the 70s, since before MDMA was even criminalized, it was used in this context, and it has continued, but surprisingly, there's been extremely limited research on it. MAPS has actually done one study, In couples where one person in the couple has diagnosed with PTSD, and both people receive MDMA, which was a very big deal. It's called the Cognitive Conjoint Behavioral MDMA Therapy. Um, so I recommend checking that out, and there is a protocol. with that, but it is also geared towards one person having PTSD. But we are working on developing another interventional study where it would be more traditional couples therapy, not with one person with PTSD necessarily. And we are in process of developing that protocol. But for me, I'm really, you know, we are doing this simultaneously, but for me, I really. I'm wanting to talk to these therapists doing the work before we finalize this, protocol because it's so fascinating that there really are so many different approaches and I really don't believe there's going to be one best approach, but I really think there's going to be key elements that emerge, like what are things we need to consider? How do we make certain choices? So those are the pieces I'm really looking forward to. Pulling out from our, interviews and hoping that is going to inform our interventional work, and I'm also seeing in the so called underground when people are doing this work, there's, they're not all couples therapists, a lot of people, are trained in very different things or not trained at all. And there's also a lot of, overlap between mediation, couples therapy, where's the line? How does that work? In psychedelic therapy, we have systems with, preparation and a session and integration work, but with the couples work, I'm seeing a lot of people going in between checking in with one person than the other, that they said this and let's do the, you know, and so I'm very interested to, better understand how all of that works. And of course with our traditional MDMA therapy research, there's a lot of internal work. You put on a blindfold, you go inside, and you see what comes up. And in couples work, though, a lot of the protocols that are from so far actually do involve a bit of internal time. A lot of it, of course, is, uh, is conversational. So I think that will be different. Which also reminds me though, I'm a big advocate for therapy and clearly I'm doing this research. However, I feel compelled to share that. I have heard so many experiences of couples using MDMA with intention without a therapist. You know, maybe not at a festival, not that there's anything wrong. Also, I've heard good stories at festivals, but I've heard more kind of success in working through things when couple, a couple will have, you know, maybe go for a weekend somewhere or just sit at home with, you know, very intentional time to process and be with each other and talk about things. And a lot of really beautiful things can emerge from that because, we know MDMA. Reduces your fear activation in your amygdala and increases feelings of, or increases oxytocin, which makes you, the feelings you get when you give a hug or you hold a baby. So it really creates this beautiful context where you can speak and hear someone in a way that you might not be able to otherwise. Um, and it really allows you to listen, to feel what they're feeling, and to express yourself. Also, without the kind of fear getting in the way, and often from a place of more, heartfelt, love, you know, a nickname for MDMA is heart medicine, and I think that's particularly apt when we're talking, um, in this context.

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

Oh, I love all of that. It's so exciting. It's so exciting. What I was thinking about when you were describing, where you are with the research so far, I was really loving that you brought up. That you start with themes, rather than trying to move right to like a specific approach. I so appreciate that, because I do think, and again, this is maybe too big of a topic for today, but I think that. Anybody working, most people working in the psychedelic arena in some way, know that one of the things that is important is to not make the same mistakes that we have made in the past with, how we think about, mental health, physical health, spiritual health, all separate, which it isn't. And then how we tend to in this Western scientific research, although it's so necessary and has a place, what it tends to do is You know, separate things that are very difficult to separate and you lose some of the magic, and so I like that studies can begin and should begin with themes to be very, like straightforward and transparent about how far we've reduced something, you know? So I don't know if you know this, but I'm, I'm writing a book who knows at this point when it'll come out, whatever it could be yours. But in one of the, in one of the chapters I talk about this theme and I use the, example of, of the very famous Mary Poppins scene where she's singing, just a spoonful of sugar, have some medicine and go down. And I talk about how beautiful that is, right. And that if. Scientists were to study the effectiveness of that medicine. What they would do is they would first, measure what's the active medicine, what's the measurable ingredient in the thing that she's providing to heal their cold or whatever. And they would separate it out from the sugar. They would say, we don't really need the sugar. The sugar is noise in the research study. Let's get rid of the sugar. And then they would say, we probably shouldn't do it in Mary Poppins, living room. With all that music, let's have the kids come to our clinic and they will get administered this medicine that doesn't have any sugar in it and you know, et cetera. They might see that their cold symptoms got better, but then later, I joke about that later, those kids will be referred for mental health services because what they didn't get was the sugar, which is sweet and magical. They didn't get the hugs and the song and the dancing. And so,

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

true.

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

know, like we, Psychedelic medicine, ancient wisdom, the people that have been doing this a lot longer than us have already shown us that it's not just about ingesting a substance and having symptom reduction. It's about ceremony. It's about ritual. It's about respect and reverence, dance and song, you know? So like, Thank you. I think that's important too. And I don't know how that'll inform the, the, the, the couple's

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

No, it's,

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

I hope there's a little room for

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

it's essential. And, well, two things about that. One is one of the most, disheartening parts about FDA. Like, refusal of approving the current MDMA research requiring more, years more of research was their biggest issue seemed to really be around the therapy. And the truth is this was the first time a drug was being looked at with a therapy. Usually it's just the drug. And they were not

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

like the spoonful of sugar analogy.

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

at the FDA.

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

were like, there's too much dance and song and noise with

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

They were like, what? And to the truth is MDMA therapy is also not exactly a normal therapy, you know, or like, okay, hold their hand, do things that are, so they were like, what the heck? This sounds really like we can't handle this. And I'm very

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

They were coming from a very specific

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

Yeah, and they, they just weren't equipped to be, they're not even therapists, so even a traditional therapist, it's a new type of therapy, but they weren't even therapists, so I have very grave concerns that the FDA is going to approve companies who are trying to develop psychedelics with no therapy because they see that as safer, which is

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

And then we'll do the same thing we've always done, which is take this antidepressant or anti anxiety and see that your symptoms resolve and then you're good to go, which doesn't treat the root of the problem.

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

and, yep,

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

Doesn't have sustainable lasting

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

nope, and, and when you spoke about the magic, you know, there's research that shows that mystical experience, at least with psilocybin sessions, has a high correlation with the outcome, and we know spirituality can really improve. your mental health when you feel that you're part of something greater and you can have faith in different things operating, and I know that's going to be a really key element of this couples work. And, when we approach couple's work now without the psychedelics and this, like you're over here, you're over there, what do you need, what do you need? Instead of what's like the, actually there is a greater good here. What is something that serves all of us in the best way and serves our children in the best way? And that's really my prayer that that is how this psychedelic couples work will operate and does operate. It allows you to kind of really You might even be able, in your mind, to say okay, there's a higher good, but it's hard to get there. And I know with psychedelics, it can often help people feel that in your body. You can really understand there is this other way that serves everyone. Um, in the best possible manner, and, I would hope that would often be an intention of a, of a session, or one of the intentions is finding that place, what is the place that serves us all, and, unfortunately, that's not often what's happening, especially mediation, I won't speak to couples therapy without psychedelics, I know that is part of that work, but when I see like mediation, when we're talking about divorce and all of that, I just, it doesn't happen and the children suffer the most, but of course people in the couples are also suffering. So I just, yeah, I really appreciate you bringing attention to that. And that like magic and spirituality is such a key part. Of the work, but also part of the work that makes it a lot harder to integrate into our mainstream culture that doesn't have as much space and understanding for what that means. And, something also kind of throw in there is that though our country is the U. S. is not actually like, super religious and all, like certain components of it are. I think there's an interesting overlap when people with religious backgrounds are faced with this and they feel like they kind of have to chew, like, well, I'm okay. I'm experiencing this spiritual thing. It's psychedelics, but what about what I'm taught, in my church. And so something that has been really important for me is to make sure that there actually are religious institutions and religious leaders that are able to bridge these things. There's a great organization called Ligare. That's a Christian psychedelic organization. I actually co founded the Jewish Psychedelic Summit. And now there's a group called Shefa that also works on Jewish psychedelic work. There are Muslim leaders that also talk about psychedelics and are, moving forward how to create more. support. There's definitely Buddhist psychedelic things out there. So, there's always need for more of that work. But I believe that's going to be one of the key elements of how to, allow people to connect to their traditions and not feel like they're having to, do something totally crazy and different and just to understand how that bridges. And, for people who don't like the the term, magic, and that feels weird to them, just to, like, the experience in these sessions of spirituality can really be very different for, it can just mean for some people seeing, like, the beauty of nature, the miracle of how our planet works.

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

with nature. Yeah.

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

is spirituality, so.

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. It's such a great note to, to end on, just being thoughtful about how we even talk about magic versus spirituality versus, song and dance and what it means. And that there is a place that can exist where we don't. Have to get caught in the weeds of that polarizing thing that often happens, which full circle right back to, to conflict resolution work and psychedelics, or even, maybe better, a better way to, to say it would be healthier conflict. We don't always have to have that end resolve. It's like, how can we move through this more healthy and with more connection to ourselves and one another. And that's. Yeah. That's

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

And I have a prayer that in, you know, I've always been wanting to do this work with Republicans and Democrats. Well, really, since Trump was first elected, I was really thinking about

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

same time. Yes. Like why? I mean, when I read the study, I was like, okay, I get that. And then what about here in the United States? We've got a real problem. And let's bring together, open enough to participate, but how amazing that could be. To see what could come out of that. And I hope that can happen. I think, and I do think maybe it began with the first research study and then now the second. And so perhaps we can create, someone will take that and create something here because I think that would be really powerful. Meaningful. And it goes back to what you and I connect on, and get and are both passionate about, which is that intergenerational healing and community right. Intergenerational within communities that, that if we can, you know, really address that more and psychedelics aside, if we can even just be a part of that advocacy within mental, spiritual, physical health

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

Absolutely.

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

Stop making these things apart. You know, bring back Mary Poppins and the song and the dance and the

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

Totally. Psychedelics are just a tool. And when we speak about intergenerational work. Couples work is the foundation of that because how do we break cycles of trauma, right? We have to heal families and like children experience so much from their parents distress and we know that if people have PTSD or addiction or Heart disease like there's such a wide range of ailments in adulthood that have an extremely high correlation with early childhood trauma So we know

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

the pain, the more the problems.

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

so when we can help heal parents You That makes a profound impact on the next generation. And so that is, I believe, one of the most effective ways of addressing intergenerational trauma at a systemic level. So that's yet another reason that couples work is so important. So important. And I think not everyone really holds that so deeply. Some people are like, Oh, that's fun. And I'm like, No, this is like the core of building a healthy society, you know, either to stay together

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

is the root.

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

or to separate with love. Like how much less trauma would that be for a child if their parents were able to separate in a more loving, supportive way? Or to stay together in a more loving, supportive way.

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

Because when there are kids involved, that relationship doesn't end, it can't. And so if we can increase the probability that new relationship post, disillusioned, dissolving the marriage or the relationship, if we can improve the probability that will have, a better outcome, then that, then we're doing it. We're doing the intergenerational healing work, right? Then we see more intergenerational wellness and not as much intergenerational trauma,

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

amen. Amen. And I will say that, of course, part of the intergenerational trauma, a big part, it comes from outside of the family structure, right? You know, horrible political experiences, violence, you know, systemic injustices of all kinds. But still, the more secure and supportive the family is, the more resilient people are to the external trauma. going on. So even that is connected, though, of course, is, you know, very difficult when horrible things are going on outside of the family. But,

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

So as we wrap up, I always like to ask the question, is there anything else that you really wanted to make sure to share that you didn't get a chance to? Yeah.

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

Hmm, I've loved this conversation. Um, I guess I would, you know, for people that are open to exploring this work, who have had experiences with couples work, maybe I'll flag that there's a great study happening at Imperial College right now where they are. Collecting people's experiences as a couple who use psychedelics, not necessarily with a therapist. So if this topic is resonant with you, you've had that experience. Please look up this study. Maps posted it on our social media, but it's Tomasa Barbara out of Imperial College, and it's very important. our study is interviewing therapists, but I'm so grateful he's interviewing the people who are experiencing it. So, I guess I invite, invite people into that and, um, Yeah. And I'll also say like you mentioned that finding out about the research we did with Palestinians and Israelis give you hope and hope is so important right now. Always. But I, there's this kind of understanding also that people are almost, Oh, you're being naive for having hope and you need to be realistic in certain situations. But I think. One of the most beautiful things about psychedelics is that they do allow people to see a different future and see how things can be better. And if we can't see that future, there's zero chance it's going to happen. Move in that direction if we can't vision it and work towards it. So even if it feels like there's a small possibility, it is so important that we hold onto that hope as a very strategic way, not in a naive way, in a strategic way of moving forward. So I just want to like honor that you shared that and, hope that people can connect to that hope in these horrific times that are, Really hard to hold on to hope even for me, you know often it's hard But I know without hope we don't have anything. So

dr--sabrina-hadeed_1_10-10-2024_101603:

We lose connection with our humanity. Yeah, it's such a, I mean, it's like I get tearful, you know, he ending on that note and I'm so grateful, I, that part of my heart sees you and because we do need that like more than ever.

natalie-lyla-ginsberg_1_10-10-2024_101603:

thank you