Amy Bryant 0:00
Amy, welcome to picking teams a podcast that dives into the playbooks of seasoned coaches. I'm Amy Bryant, a 23 year veteran college coach, and my guests hail from the professional, college and youth ranks. Together, we'll share real stories from our coaching experiences to empower you as parents to be positive forces in your child sports journey.
Our guest today is Kyle gukins. Kyle is a former division one head men's soccer coach who currently is the director of my college soccer, a college soccer recruiting consulting agency. He has over 23 years of coaching experience at every level of youth and amateur soccer, and has also been a US Soccer scout for the USSF youth national teams. Today's play is club hoppers Kyle and I will share key considerations for those parents who may be contemplating switching their child to a new team or club or even country. Kyle and I are here, and today we're just talking today about sports parents and how if a child has some skill and some talent and is doing well, how a parent can potentially negatively impact a child's future. So Kyle, what are your thoughts on that? What have you seen lately in the sports world from your experience with soccer.
Kyle Gookins 1:46
I mean, well, it's funny. I see it a lot in soccer from what I do, but I have my college roommate that was a golfer, and his son is 14 and is like a pretty good golfer. So I hear it on the golf side too, in Southern California. And this conversations he's telling me. And I'm like, he's not even he's like, not even high school. Yet, take a deep breath. Like, come on, stressed out about what high school he's going to and truancies and all these, like, is he going to play high school golf? I'm like, Just let him enjoy life a little bit. Let him be a kid. So I think I've seen every different experience on the soccer side, because a lot of parents will move, you know, right now, especially in the MLS academies, it's 1517, and some have 19, so you're moving a child that's like a freshman in high school, sometimes to some academies. Now, this was a while back, like my first introduction with it. I had a player who left a sophomore in high school, moved to Colorado, and a parent went with him, and by the time he got into college, he was just like, I want to go to a college and have a normal, like, normal experience. I didn't go. I was doing online school as a sophomore all the way through it. He was even in Spain as like a 12 year old, like 11 year old, yeah, wow. Like Spain is an 1112, year old thinking like, I'm gonna go this pro route. Then came back to the States. I ended up coaching him under 17, and then he went to go try to do the pro route, and played in, like the USL. Now he's just, like, at a four year college, just like playing soccer at a at a decent level, but, like division one, but he could have done all of that going to high school in California, like in in northern North Carolina, like just staying at the academy team he was at and then, like working, he could have had a much normal experience, but he was, like chasing it. And his mom, like, moved with him to Colorado, moved with him to Spain, and by the end of it, he had transferred out of ACC school to a socon team, and was just like, I just want to have a normal college experience. I just want to go to college, go to practice. So I've kind of seen all of it, and then I see players in the MLS that did kind of the traditional route, that have like, you know, didn't know any better, were from small town in North Carolina, got recruited, played four years of college, got into the MLS at like, a low contract, and are now there for like, eight years. So like it.
Amy Bryant 4:15
And let me ask you this. Let me ask you this, the kid who was chasing the dream from age 12, and I should say, probably not the kid chasing the dream, probably the parent pushing the dream, but him versus the one that played MLS for eight years but went a more, you know, slower route for better work, I was happier who's whose mental health is in?
Kyle Gookins 4:44
I mean, that's a great it's a, it's a great question. I mean, I would argue the guy, I mean, still playing in the MLS, and he has, like, an MBA, like, he went and got his MBA while he was, like, in playing, because he graduated. I mean, he got a four year degree, and then went into the MLS, and then when he was there, he realized, like, I'm not going to play my whole life, so I need to, you know, I need to think about something after and he had kind of built, like, foundations, I guess, you know, a guy I started coaching with early on in college said, like, Don't skip a run on the ladder as you go through things. And I think it's true for like, it's like, the best advice I give parents, because they're like, Well, you know what? We could go we, you know, he's got this year. We could go overseas and play here. It's like, but if you're not the best on your team, take a deep breath, like, be the best on your team, and then be the best in your city, and then be the best in the area, and then look at like, all right, maybe I should look overseas like I had a kid email me. This is funny. Email me yesterday. I talked to a year and a half ago about the college recruiting process. He wasn't on an ECNL team. He was like, on couldn't make an ECNL team. But then I talked to him a little bit. I was like, we need to be playing. You're just guest training at an ECNL team. You're not even in the top 18. And he was like, Well, I think I'm going to go overseas. I was like, I think that's a if you're trying to play college talk as a bad idea, because they're not going to go see you. He sent me an email. He's like, Well, I've been playing like, fifth tier. I was like, that's great. But, like, what college is good? You know? Like, what college is gonna be? Like, oh, well, you were playing ecrl, and now you're in Germany, like, but you're so far down, just because you're in a different country, like, doesn't automatically give you the status of or the experience or the chance for a coach to watch you play. I think that's the big part. Is like, they want to see you play live. They want to see what you're doing here. I don't know. It's just like, sometimes I would say, like, parents just take a deep breath, let the child lead it a little bit. And like, I just kind of say, like, list the like needs and wants. Like, what are the like, what's the mission statement behind like, why do you do this? Burnout is, I know you're saying like, mental burnout is a thing. Yeah, these academies, it's your online school. So you're in the same room with the same people. You play with, you train in the morning, you then go to online school with them, in a room, and you're just kind of doing it on your own. Got headphones on, you're not really interacting with anyone else other than your team and an education officer. Then you're back in the weight room, and then you go home, and that's like, kind of your existence. And so, like, when you look at the percentages of people getting homegrown contracts, very slim. And so, like, is all of that worth it? I guess I don't know. I don't know the answer. Some people don't. I
Amy Bryant 7:42
think what parents need to really consider because, you know, I've seen the kid that you referenced at the beginning started at age 12, you know, then bounced around to Colorado, then to Spain. My question is always like, Who's paying for that? If it's the parent paying like, the second we get to pay to play situations, for me, that's like, you know, a big sign. It's like, yes, there are so many opportunities for our kids out there. There are so many things that we can pay for it, to make our child smarter, to make our child stronger, to make our child, you know, a better skilled musician. I mean, we can pay for anything, right? But if we're paying for it, how likely is it that they are going to get picked up, go pro, like this is really the way to make it happen, in my mind, until it's paid for. Then we're talking, okay, well, there Now there might be a path, but if I'm paying for it, I mean, the other part of that is, if I'm paying for something for my kids, and I want them to put 100% in, right? So it's like, I'm paying for it. If the tutor comes over, I want my kids focused. If we set up an appointment for, you know, him to one of my kids to work with the weight coach, then I want him there at 7am if it starts at 7am because I'm paying for that hour, right? But that's the kind of pressure I think that snowball and can make some of these kids get a little burnt out too soon. Burnout, as we said, is a real thing. So if we're paying for it, we're putting the pressure behind it for them to do it. If we're paying for them to go to Spain, we're picking up and moving our whole entire family to Spain. We had a kid to do that, to go play futsal in Spain. And, I mean, great, but again, like, Who's paying for that? Like, uplifting the whole family, putting the weight of that on this poor kid who was 12 years old at the time, it's, I mean, it's like, give it a rest. You know, maybe when they're 1516, if, if, if a coach calls and says, hey, we'll pay for it. Come on over. You have this opportunity in your, you know, life, but I think you look at it as an opportunity to go live and study abroad, not as an opportunity for your child to actually go make a protein.
Kyle Gookins 10:17
Totally agree. And I think, I mean, it's funny when you talk about the cost. Well, first off, I would say, like, even like talking with my college roommate is like, his intentions are gold. His intentions are awesome. Like, he's like, look, I don't want him to I don't want my son to think that I didn't put everything into it to help him achieve his goals. But I think what you're saying is, like, do they really want it? Sometimes it's like, we I mean, I do. I'm guilty this. My son's five. I'm like, Ooh, is he into this? Okay? Like, how do I help him be really into this? Like, I don't want to hold him back. So it's like, the intentions are there, but sometimes we have to take a step back. And I think you're right the minute you're paying for things above and beyond, like I have, I'm sure you have loads of clients like this, where I tell the parents, like, Okay, you're spending, you know, 20k per year to send them to this academy overseas. Why don't you just pocket that 20k and spend it on tuition in college? Because you're going to spend it anyway, like, unless you're just say, and then, yeah, like you said, then study abroad through university. Like, do that? Get that experience that way? But it, I'm with you. The nice thing about really high level academies, even in the US, is most of them are free. So like, all the MLS academies now are free. I think there's one that's like, like, you have to pay a little bit, but it's, like, not very much. And then a lot of the the four, as far as soccer, a lot of the foreign academies are free, the top ones, but that's kind of, that's what I would say, like, if you're, if you're not in and around, like, you know, if you're in a market of an MLS Academy, and you're not in and around it, or been brought in, or it's much harder outside. It's not like MLS is the Premier League right now. On the soccer part, it's a little bit different. So that's where I think sometimes people get jaded to say, like, well, I could got this passport. I can go over to, you know, go over to this country. I'm like, there's a reason there's all of these foreign players coming into the American College system to play, because they're not making pro there either. So it's much harder. It's like, much harder. So just crack every level. Like, just be good at every level, and then, like, look back and go, like, Okay, this is kind of where I'm at right now. Make my decision this way. So instead of thinking, well, there's this crowd, I'm going to go to this trout, Yeah, but you're not starting on your current team. Maybe don't try out there. Like, I don't want to hold anyone back. I just always want to set realistic expectations, like, hard in this moment, and then see what happens afterwards. Like, there's always people watching so well, I just think
Amy Bryant 12:59
that the parent that's, that's thinking the grass is always greener, you know, like, that's, it's just not a way to, first of all, it's not a way to teach our kids to live life. You know, the grass is not always greener. We know this in our professional work lives, the grass is not always greener. You get a new job, you think it's great, and then suddenly start having the same issues you were having at your other job. You You got to look inward and figure out, okay, what is it? What are what are my issues that are attributing or contributing to these, these problems, right? I mean, not all the time, of course, but I think the grass is not always greener. I think what these parents need to do is they need to look first locally. Can your child get what he or she needs locally? Are they getting the attention from the local people? And before you start smutting The local coaches who aren't identifying your child, let's again. Let's look inside. Let's look and see. Okay. Well, what? What are the reasons that they're not identifying my child, because there's probably something there that your child needs to improve on. So if we can focus on what's important here, if we can focus on work ethic, we can focus on attitude, we can teach those important values to our children, then they can actually really develop and flourish into somebody that, you know, a college coach is going to be interested in having on their team, rather than a kid that's constantly looking to see what else is out there, who else is going to, like me jumping right into the transfer portal, you know, like,
Kyle Gookins 14:34
it's, there's so many of like the we use the term in the soccer game as club hoppers. Yeah, it's like, every year they're at a different spot, chasing something, and it's like, you need some consistency. Be like, if your resume has all of these, like, gaps or different things in it, where it's like, well, you're at a job every six months you're at a new job. Like, what's going on there? So I think it's similar to that, like, speaks to what you're talking about. Totally agree. No, I had a, I had a guy called me, was it yesterday? Yeah, yesterday is he does a 2010 so his son's 2010 and he's not in, he's in North Carolina, and he got, he was in an MLS Academy and got released. And he's dad's basically, his dad was a college soccer player, division one college soccer. But it's not like he doesn't know soccer. I mean, he said he was a good soccer player, and he's like, Look, I just, you know, don't think that I watch him play, and my son's everything that they need. And I'm like, I get that, but like, I'm happy to watch your son, and I'll give you honest feedback. But like, if they're not taking him, there's a reason they're not taking him. Like, if they genuinely thought that he would help their team, that they would bring him in. Sometimes it's a style. Sometimes they just have a person a little bit better than him, and so it's like, why bring a kid in and not play like that's the other thing is, these coaches do have conscious, like they have a conscience, like, just going to bring someone in to bring him in. And, you know, MLS teams can only protect so many guys and and sometimes they protect the player, but they send them back to their club. It's like, No, keep playing here. Don't come in yet, because, you know, you may not play behind these guys. So there's so many factors in it, and I think sometimes people see it as like, black and white, like every parent should think their their child is amazing. That's what you should do. That's the beauty of being a parent,
Amy Bryant 16:19
absolutely. And you should push your parent and your kids, and you should encourage them that there are limits to how you need to push them, because remember, this isn't your dream. This is your child's dream. And so it is not fun to be a child and to be sitting on a bench. So when these MLS academies release kids, it's because they're not getting playing time, and they know it's not fun for their kid, you know, for the kid. And so the best thing for your kid is to then go be reabsorbed into a program that's going to appreciate them and love them and make them feel special and and that could also, in turn, serve to help them improve their game and get to a point where maybe the MLS Club's gonna look at them again, or maybe a different MLS Club's gonna look at them. But again, it all comes down to how they're feeling on the field, and are they playing, and how are their parents supporting them when they are playing versus when they're not playing, there's a difference there as well, and they can feel it.
Kyle Gookins 17:23
I mean, and not only 100% they can. I'm sure you asked this question too. When you first meet, like a potential client to the recruiting business or whatever, it's like, like, the parents will do a lot of the talking on the front end, and then you go to the kid and you go, Okay, what do you want. Like, does that line up with what you want? Like, my old roommate was like, you know, I'm thinking, like, this school, and I'm weighing up. Like, do we do this? My father in law moved to San Diego, and I was like, Look, you're saying all these things, but what does your son want? Like, maybe he wants to go to this high school. Maybe he wants to play high school golf. Like, I get that, yeah. Like, it's, it's easy to kind of blur the lines as a parent, to go, like, Well, I think this is what they want, so I'm going to push them towards this. And sometimes you just have to check in, like, Hey, do you like this? Like, my own personal story, I quit at 17 because I was from Southern California, and I my parents were divorced, and my mom was driving me, and then to the point where I was just trying to catch rides, and I was playing in LA. So like LA traffic is worse than Atlanta trafficking. So I would, I would have to drive almost two hours one way to practice at 16 years old into LA and then games. Same thing. I don't think my mom watched a game that year, because I was always someplace else. I was always playing someplace else, and so I just got burned out. Was like, I can't do this anymore. And my mom, I give my mom a lot of credit, she went, Okay, like, no worries, knowing that I'd come back to it, you know. And yeah, I just was like, I just can't do this. I can't drive, you know, three nights a weeks in the car for four hours a day like this. It's coming. I'm not enjoying it, not having fun. And I like, quit. It's like, right at the end, like, going into my senior year, going into my senior year of high school, I quit at the end of my junior year because I was on an under 19 team, and I was young, one of those guys always played up because I was really big, and they all went to college. And I was like, I'm left without a team here. And so that I was playing in LA and just doing everything I could. And I like, this is not fun. This is not for me. And so I just stopped. And then my like, best friend, I'd never played on his teams because they were, like, a few levels down, was like, dude, just come out and guest play on a tournament. I was like, All right, sure. So I did. It changed my life. Like, it literally, like, I just had fun again. I went to a new position the coach, we brought some other players that I played with in LA that were doing the same commute, and our team, like, kind of elevated a little bit. There was the best, like, year of club I had for a long time, because I just loved it. I had so much fun. And I got, I played in a Thanksgiving tournament, got recruited, boom, signed my letter, like, right after it was like, one of those, like, perfect storms. But I think if my mom, in the moment when I said no, this isn't for me, if she would have, kind of like, pushed back, like, No, I'm going to continue to drive you down there, I wouldn't have played college sock, yeah, kind of like, so I give my mom credit, to kind of go like, okay, like, if that's what you want, and take a deep breath and and then, yeah, I ended up getting back into it, like two I was, I think I quit for a total of, like, a month and a half. So it wasn't like a true, like, a sabbatical, I guess you'd say, but I think it's a lesson, and sometimes kids get burned out. And I think you said it the best way of, like, how do we support as parents to help the kid, like, find what that reason is, why they play the sport Right? Kind of always done it since then, like, and I think that's a good advice for any kid going through it is like, don't just chase the name or what you think you should be chasing. It's like, feel find that fit and what you want it to feel like, like you said, like, enjoyment, like playing time, like all these things, and then like, chase that.
Amy Bryant 20:59
And I think as parents, we need to remember that the end game is for your child to be happy and to be, you know, loved, to feel like they're loved. One of the things that I always say to parents that I work with is, if there's only five words you should say to your kids after game, and that is, I love watching you play, that's it. I mean, I didn't come up with it. There is a podcast that explains it. But anytime that we get in the car and either of my son say, how do you think I played? Like I I told my tongue, right? Because I want to, I want to tell him, I want to tell him what I saw. I want to, I want to say it, but I really take a deep breath, and I said, You know what? I just love watching you play, you know, and then they'll push me later. But did you think I'd like, Well, did you think I just loved it? You know, don't take the bait. Just
Kyle Gookins 21:55
my mom used to say, I gotta give him a lot of credit. She never coached on us. I just think she had no idea about sports, so it helped, but she would just go. Where do you want to go
Amy Bryant 22:04
eat? Your mom was definitely a smart woman. Thanks so much for being on today, Kyle. I'm sure we'll have you on again soon. Thanks for tuning in for today's play. Join us next time to hear more insights from another outstanding coach, until then, remember, as you navigate the ups and downs of your child's sports journey, you're not just picking teams, You're building character, fostering resilience and creating lifelong Memories.
