Christian mums are walking around thinking, I am to blame, I feel responsible, my children's behaviour is on me. I should have done steps one, two, three, four, five and six, and this never would have happened.
SPEAKER_02So when they're shouting at you, all they're saying is, I can't cope and I need help. If they said to you, I can't cope and I need help, you would respond with love and compassion.
SPEAKER_00We have a messiah. If you are the angry parent, you are angry because your children are not doing exactly what they are meant to do. That's why they need a messiah. Your anger seems uncontrollable and inevitable. That's why you have a messiah. Hello, welcome to the Faith in Parents podcast. My name is Ed Drew. I'm the Ministry Director at Faith in Kids. I'm doing this because I'm passionate about seeing children grow up in faith. That's a story in my own family, but it's a story in the ministries I've been involved in for more than 20 years. Helping parents, helping churches to raise children to know Christ. So the next generation will far get beyond what we have ever achieved. Amy, you're in this story too. How are you going, Amy?
SPEAKER_02I'm all right, Ed. I'm just clinging on sometimes by my fingernails to it all, but that's all right. Because where I lack strength, Jesus doesn't. So we're gonna be alright. We're gonna be okay. So Ed, we've had the pleasure of working together for a long year. A decade.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's more. It's I think 15 years. Is it? There you go.
SPEAKER_02So just in case people think that, you know, we're not very nice to one another, it's years of familiarity.
SPEAKER_00Oh, Amy. Our colleagues try and work it out. It's worth saying we're not married. We have our own families.
SPEAKER_02We have sibling vibes.
SPEAKER_00There's something of that.
SPEAKER_02Siblings in Christ. So, Ed, last episode, we're we're in September. Uh, we're in the start of a new year. We're still we're still feeling those starts of term things, but I think at this point in our in our lives, the energy is starting to dip. We've had the reality of like, particularly if our kids are little, uh, the that you pick up, you drop off this child at school with all their pristine things, and then you pick up that kid comes out with like the hair has basically been styled by a whisk, and they come out carrying you know half of the things that they went in with, um, and mud everywhere, mud kitchens. Wow, mud kitchens, um, and they're starving and grumpy, and you think, What happened to my child? And all they want from you is food and screens, and it's also just all a bit sad. So I think that's where we're at. So, Ed, have you gotten a word of encouragement for the ch for the parent that's sort of staring into the middle distance thinking, Where did it all go so wrong?
SPEAKER_00I remember the first time I met the mum who said, I collect my children with snacks in my pockets. Yeah, and I had to ask for an explanation of what do you mean? And she said, Well hungry. Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_02I used to hold like a brioche at the bottom of the step, then just come down with a mouth open straight on.
SPEAKER_00And the thinking is by the time you get home, you might begin to get a child who can talk and not just scream and shout and be angry, and be tired.
SPEAKER_02I also like to say my top tip this is not a faith in parents particular particular thing. Um, September till October half term, we just hang on in there. You just got to keep going to October half term, and then we start to think.
SPEAKER_00And is this because, Amy, there's a shock of like we were on summer holiday, or are you saying of all the of all the half terms in the year, this one is trickier than the rest?
SPEAKER_02I think this is trickier than the rest. I think this is the hardest half term. You either go in, yay, and then they're just oh, we s we have to do this again. I mean, I remember that with my kids, even the ones that were loving it. You know, we've been to school and we've eaten the chicken burger and we've played outside, we've met the new teacher, and by week two, you still want me to do this again?
SPEAKER_00And if your children are preschool, they've had the whole summer with you, and probably for almost all children, that's an absolute delight and a joy.
SPEAKER_02It's a long day.
SPEAKER_00And it and they look at you when you're sort of dropping them off at childcare, whatever it is you do, and they look at you as if to say, Why would you do this? Why are you doing this to me again? You loved me.
SPEAKER_02I know. Hang on in there. No decisions till October half term.
SPEAKER_00And there's something here then, Amy, about it's the beginning of a new year, and it it's not just same old, it's actually I'm not being negative, I'm an optimist, but there's something of it's it's new and difficult. I've got a new problem. The last teacher had got my kid, and this new one. We knew what we were doing, yeah. And and I'm in this new WhatsApp group, and we're in this new football team, and we're in this new journey to start.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's parenting. Every time you think you've you've nailed this, it changes. I've just got good at this phase and they've grown out of it and grown into the next one. Ed, we talked the last time about uh the R responses of parents. So we've thought about the child the tired child, the changes that they're facing. Um, I just want to say parent heart. So we we ended our last episode with a little bit of a teaser for guilty mum and grumpy dad. We did. So I want you to unpack. I think I think I'm gonna let you do grumpy dad.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so I that I first of all need to say you and I are about to make gender stereotypes, which is extremely dangerous, but statistically backed gender stereotypes. Okay, one of them is data backed, and the other's just it's me, and I'm gonna say maybe a lot of men are like me.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00If you're listening to this and you saying I'm more like the man and I'm more like the woman or something, that's absolutely fine.
SPEAKER_02Well, I also like to say this is slightly data backed because the the when we've been out on the road talking to parents. People nod, the dad no, the dads come and say to me afterwards, I'm I'm grumpy, dad. I'm angry, dad.
SPEAKER_00So go on. Okay, so the story here is is how do you respond to the fact that your parenting, your children, your life is is not how you believed it could be, it's maybe not how you believe it should be, it's it's not how the Bible lends you to believe it must be, and how do we respond? Now, as a man, I I as a dad, in fact, I would say I didn't know how angry I was until I had children. I I am generally a calm person. There is a level of anger I reach in parenting well that I can sit here and say is disappointing. I can also say it's a shock. I don't want to make light of it because if there was a pie chart of what causes me to apologize to my children, I'd say more than three-quarters of those moments are my anger. I'm gonna do some pop psychology on myself, and you can decide listening if it's your story too. I think my theory is where the anger comes from is this isn't how it should be. This isn't how I expected it to be. You are not you're not following the script like I've written it. You know, we are late and it's not on me. You know, you've lost your shoes, and I'm gonna become ever more angry now about the situation till we walk out the door.
SPEAKER_02Can I just check? If we were late because it was you, yeah, I'd still be angry. Would you be angry? Oh, okay. You're not gonna say, well, it's absolutely fine because here are the reasons why we were late, because I have these legitimate things.
SPEAKER_00No, so it's that's really helpful to point out. Uh, and I think the story of parenting is even when it's my fault, I have this sort of mini audience that I get to claim are to blame. Oh. And in fact, I was talking to a friend about this, and he was just reflecting every single week they are late for church, and every single week he gets angry, and every single week he thinks, well, obviously we should have just started this ten minutes earlier. If every single week we are five minutes late, why wouldn't we just begin all of this ten minutes earlier? And so he was saying, look, whether it's we've lost shoes this week or whether it's a cardigan that's gone missing, or whatever it is, it is still on the parent, he's saying. Okay.
SPEAKER_02I I you know So if if I've spotted this pattern, it's up to me to make the decision to fix the pattern.
SPEAKER_00I am the parent. But the story of parenting is we're gonna blame our children, we're gonna treat them like they're the ones to blame, they've got the responsibility, it's on us. But bottom line, I think a lot of dads get angry because it's just not how it's meant to be, it's not working how it should be.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so I think I would say I get angry with my kids because I expect to have done the logical conversation.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02So I have explained to you Oh, clearly the only way reason this happened is because you didn't know.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02So now I'm going to give you the logical explanation of how to do this.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02I'm going to give you a practical example.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02Hanging washing on the line. Now, my children are of an age now, so this is the current example, but there will have many others earlier on. Um you hang when you hang a t-shirt, Ed, you hang a t-shirt from the two corners at the bottom down.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02So then you don't, it's got the least chance of needing any sort of further help.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02And it looks the least creased when you put it on.
SPEAKER_00I feel like Amy, we're all benefiting from this.
SPEAKER_02One of my sons pegged the t-shirts on the line half over with a peg like in the middle, one peg in the middle, and sort of like slightly above belly button heights.
SPEAKER_01Okay, got it.
SPEAKER_02So whoever now wears this t-shirt, it's got like a crease tie-dye effect in the middle.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_02So I am incredibly angry. Okay. Because we have had a training session on hangout t-shirts.
SPEAKER_01This is amazing.
SPEAKER_02And a conversation about hanging out t-shirts.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So the only possible reason for you to have not done it right is because you are being deliberately mean to the owner of this t-shirt or deliberately defiant to me.
SPEAKER_00I see. In your mind, that's how it goes. I have explained it. If you haven't followed it, you are being deliberately rebellious against my peg system.
SPEAKER_02And the training session. And all of the this is basically, you know, shove off, mum.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02No to your rules, I'm in charge. This is sin on display. Yes. On the washing line.
SPEAKER_01I see this.
SPEAKER_02So I have a deeper meaningful conversation with the criminal.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I am angry.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And he says, I was just trying to do it fast.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02And you think, oh.
SPEAKER_00Maybe he's a child.
SPEAKER_02He was just trying to do it fast. I'm still not certain he was just trying to do it fast, can we just say?
SPEAKER_00Because he'd had the training session.
SPEAKER_02And the only reason. So yeah, I get angry because I have explained the thing and you have not done the thing. And then I have to remember I am not dealing with adults. So if I was the workplace. If you had told me this is the way I want you to do it, and I did it wrong, I would deliberately be going, I'm not doing what you say, Ed.
SPEAKER_01I see this.
SPEAKER_02So I'm putting my adult emotions onto a child, and I think that's what makes me angry that you know, and when they were little, you saying no to me and you doing this, if I, you know, or just that's defiance.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. No, mum, I won't.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but that whole if I were to say that, I would hate the person. So why would they why would they be so horrible to me? They're just a child. So you can't put the adult emotions on the child's. So there you are. There's my deep and meaningful exploration into anger, which almost sounds like I've just justified my anger.
SPEAKER_00Look, what the last five minutes have given us, Amy, is an extremely clear understanding of pegging rules. So it's not a waste. Even if we don't understand your anger, we've now understood.
SPEAKER_02I've always persuaded everyone else that you get it's totally justifiable. And everyone's going, well, yeah, because now I'm going off to iron them. So everyone is now justifiably angry about my washing. That's not what we were supposed to know.
SPEAKER_00I really hope. I hope there is someone who's looking down and they've got a crease just above the belly button on their t-shirt, and they're thinking, Oh my goodness, there's a way to avoid this. Right, Amy, you're gonna have to tell us about women now, and I'm totally silent. But I am gonna put the episode you're about to talk about in the show notes.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so um, we had a conversation with uh Laura Wiffler, um, and she was telling us about some research that they had done. And I am gonna tell you numbers, Ed. This is always a nerve-wracking moment, but I'm I remember these ones. 10,000 mums, women, Christian mums, Ed, 10,000 Christian mums were surveyed to ask like how parenting was going, what did they find hard? And wouldn't you believe 92% of the women that they surveyed said they struggled with mum guilt. So it's a brilliant episode because you then go off so funny in retrospect. You go off into this big thing of like, what? How could this possibly be the case? That's like saying all women, now this is I quote, all all all the mums that have two legs struggle with guilt. Yeah, and it was very funny because then this thing in my head is like, how I wonder how many of those 10,000 women that struggle with guilt had artificial limbs, is what I'm thinking. And then also thinking, hang on a minute, no, I'm not surprised. Why am I not surprised? You were surprised.
SPEAKER_00My head was blown. Yeah, and and the the killer line was Ed, why have you never spoken to your wife about this? That was the killer line, which is you and Laura were sitting there thinking, how dysfunctional is Ed's marriage?
SPEAKER_02Oh, how is how does he not how has he not chatted to other mums on the playground who was who just tell you that they're riddled with guilt?
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02And that every problem that their child ever has is because of something that they did or didn't do.
SPEAKER_00So like it's it's a bit like if you 92% of cars smell of eggs. You know, if you said that, it would be like, what? How's that possible?
SPEAKER_0292% of snookables relate to God's gifting.
SPEAKER_00No, don't. That's a previous episode. Our poor listeners are never gonna follow that.
SPEAKER_02Somebody will.
SPEAKER_00Someone will. You know, like 90% if you 92% of homes have magnolia paint, whatever it is. That's probably true. Okay, but if you said that, you're like, what that can't be right. I mean, that's like the whole of the paint industry. Why are they making any other colour?
SPEAKER_02But the point was, yeah, I've never met any of the 8% that say I don't feel guilty.
SPEAKER_00So while I was being hung up on 92% of women are burdened by guilt. You and Laura, like, who are these 8%?
SPEAKER_02I know, I'd like to meet one who's telling me, oh no, it doesn't bother me at all.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So what we learned in that episode, and it uh I it's been a helpful life lesson for me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Is we we could actually generalize and say Christian mums, maybe all mums, I haven't done that research. Christian mums are walking around thinking, I am to blame, I feel responsible, my children's behaviour is on me. I should have done steps one, two, three, four, five, and six, and this never would have happened.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I shouldn't have let them work if they'd eaten more hummus, less carrots, or not watched this on television, we wouldn't be dealing with this right now.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. It when this is maths, you know, like the the the the sort of the brain connections we make, just like anger, are not rational or sensible, yeah, but they lead us to a place of it's all on me.
SPEAKER_02And culturally, we're now all panicked because all of our problems are because of what our parents did, and that's why we're broken, and we're therefore breaking our own children by the mistakes that we're making. So we're all crushed by this huge burden of we're just gonna get it wrong.
SPEAKER_00Right, Amy. So the the headline we've reached, I think is we're angry and guilty. Exactly. All Christian men are walking around with a shameful level of anger.
SPEAKER_02We don't have to, we'd have to do we don't have to dis differentiate. We don't parents are angry or guilty, or a bit of both.
SPEAKER_00Fine. And if you if you are the parent who is neither angry nor guilty, email us in. We want to meet you. We'd like you to be our guest. We we want to know what's the secret. What's the matter with you all?
SPEAKER_02It's all fine.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So, Amy, okay.
SPEAKER_02What's the answer?
SPEAKER_00You now ask me, Ed, walk us back from the cliff.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00That's what you always say to me.
SPEAKER_02That's okay, walk me back from the cliff. So I want you to walk me back from the cliff as I'm the mum. You have to walk me back from the cliff as the mum.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02I'm I'm guilty, I've got it all wrong. Every problem is my fault.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Let's say it slowly. This is why we have a messiah. We have a messiah. If you are the angry parent, you are angry because your children are not doing exactly what they are meant to do. That's why they need a messiah. Your anger seems uncontrollable and inevitable. That's why you have a messiah. There is a place to take your anger, and you don't just say sorry to your kids, you can say sorry to Jesus. He forgives you, and by his spirit says there is a different story ahead. If you are the mum who's burdened by guilt, firstly, this is why Jesus died, to say, if there is something you have done, and there will be, there will be some aspect of your parenting that is not as good as it could have been, obviously. Take that to the cross and say, Lord, will you please weave my children a better story? And would I not be the cause of the difficulties in their lives? But secondly, help me to trust you that they have a Messiah rather than a mum or a dad. They have a heavenly father for what we cannot do, for what we cannot foresee. We cannot know what's going to happen in three years, and therefore put in place the training plan now. I I'm only now thinking of pegging. You know, that is just as simplest. Like you have made you've made an incredible step, Amy. You've said our children need to learn pegging. I'm gonna give them a training course.
SPEAKER_02Now I could I'm I may may I tell you, I uh do an excellent self-care armpit hygiene training course, also.
SPEAKER_00Amy, I okay, this is the next faith in kids resource. We all want to know what are the training sessions that Amy using a knife and fork, you know, all these things. Okay, so the sorry putting up shoelaces. No, that's unrelated, that's a different training course. Okay, so Amy is offering some training courses to her children, but you don't believe this can fix every problem they're gonna face in the future.
SPEAKER_02No, there are some practical skills we need to learn, but there are also the social, emotional, spiritual, all these skills that we need to learn, and that's why children have parents. That's you as a parent are God's gift to your child because you live with them, you're alongside them, you show them how to do stuff, you pass on the things that you've learnt, um, and we're not guilt-ridden that we also pass on all of our struggles because we have Jesus. So your angry dad, angry parent, you have a messiah, guilty parent, worried about all the things that I'm gonna all the ways I'm gonna get this wrong, you have a messiah.
SPEAKER_00On his throne, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So that you know, he can use the difficult things, and often the difficult things are the things that make us realise we need help, we need Jesus. So we don't need to snowplow them out of our children's lives, and we don't need to snowplow them out of our own, because these are the moments where we come to say, ah, I can't do this without him.
SPEAKER_00I'm absolutely delighted. So, where we can summarize it is for the learning how to peg washing up on a line moment, we have a parent.
SPEAKER_02We have a parent.
SPEAKER_00There is not a long queue of people saying, Please can I teach your children how to peg clothes on a washing line?
SPEAKER_02For this, we have parents, and then there's the other song, for this, we have Jesus. So there's two categories. You know that song.
SPEAKER_00Verse one and verse two.
SPEAKER_02See, nobody in church wants to sing the how to pack my bag and how to put my pyjamas on and how to wash my hair for this. We have parents, and then next verse. Oh, for my sin and my grief and my regret for this, we have Jesus. No one's gonna sing the parenting song. Maybe I'll write it.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I'm I'm genuinely now riffing off this in my mind, thinking this is just very helpful for this episode. Verse one for so much our children have a parent. Yeah, God's gift, plan A for your children. If the Lord God is carefully weaving together everything for our good, then he has handpicked a parent for a child. And equally, a child has been handpicked for a parent to grow in godliness. I didn't know I was an angry person. God has given me children who prompt my anger so that I see how angry I am, and he is doing a good story in my life, helping me to have more self-control and to understand I'm not in control and I need a king on the throne. And the second verse is for for for everything for the sting of old regrets.
SPEAKER_02That is a line in the song. I just remember a few key lines.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I don't know the song you're talking about, Amy.
SPEAKER_02But for the joys and for the sorrows, Amy.
SPEAKER_00Okay. For everything else, we have a messiah. Both Forgive us, but also to weave together a better story because he is in control.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so Ed, I'm now moving us on to talking about. I want to land this. So we've already landed it in my begging. I want to uh land this into the moments that we're now facing in everyday school life in this point of September. So we've got the um the you're picking up your child from school and uh their after-school collapse. So they've been fine all day and everyone else is happy, uh, but you've now picked up an exhausted child who behaves really badly. Uh so how am I going to try and say, what does it look like to parent here?
SPEAKER_00Well, and you're not just looking for me to say snacks.
SPEAKER_02And it's so we know the parent answer. What's the Jesus answer?
SPEAKER_00What's the Jesus answer? The first thing to say is every season of parenting, you said this earlier, we expect it to change. So, so we and that I think is a disappointment of the Christian life, is I keep hoping round the next corner is the easy life where I am very godly, and the Lord gives gives me an easy life that I feel like I've deserved. Some some sort of spiritual retirement. If there are retired people listening to this, you're thinking life is not easy, but that's not the way the Lord does it. He continues to ensure we we are learning to rely on him more. So round the next corner for your children and for you is the next example of what the Lord is giving you, so that you are forced to say, Lord, have mercy on us, please will you take us under your wing? We need your care. So if phonics is your new thing and you can't remember whether the H is a horse or a hay bale, and you can't remember whether the S is a snake or a sausage, you know, the Lord is there. If you're dealing with split digraphs, if if last year's teacher was just wonderful and glorious and understood your child perfectly, and this year's teacher is something of an ogre, and your child is disliking school on a new level, this is why we have the Lord. He is the stability when we just have our head in our hands thinking, but we only just got to the end of the last year by holding on, and I've now discovered that was much easier than this one is.
SPEAKER_02So whatever comes along, we can trust that this is what God has brought into our family life to help us depend on him and trust him more.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I look, I I think of I think of you come home and your your child at the end of last year was telling you about a slightly tricky situation where they were in a friendship triangle, where there were two children who really got on so well, and they were sort of on the edge of a friendship group. And then this year you come back and you discover oh, a new child has joined the class, and this pair has absolutely adored this new child who's joined, and now there's no space in the friendship group for this your child at all. And you you are like, Well, this was awful before, and now it's a new level of awful. Um, last year your child was struggling to cope with adding and subtracting, and this year they're doing multiplication and division, and it feels impossible. To say these things out loud, I think if you're not a parent, you're thinking, What's like they come on, like get with the program. This is not difficult. Whereas if this is what is causing tears and tantrums, and I never want to go to school again, it feels like kind of a big problem.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So, Ed, let's imagine, let's imagine there's some specific scenarios. So people always like it when we do this. There's some specific scenarios that we want to talk about to say, um, if if me as the parent, if I'm the one who has to do this, like partly, really? You know, there's there's people who've been in kids' ministry for 10 years, like they'd they'd surely be far better at having this conversation with my child than me. Um, and there's there's there's this because you know the professionals teach them at school, so like no one's trusting me to teach my child phonics and and maths. I'm sending them to the specialist centre. Yeah. So like surely that's that's church too, isn't it? Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02The best people to train my children in education are the trained professionals in the in the building with you know the flat roof and the double door and the and they and the best people to train my children in knowing God and knowing his word are the kids workers who are trained professionals and know where the books of the Bible are.
SPEAKER_00I think of this as the kitchen explosion.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00When you're sat in your kitchen and your child is absolutely exploding, whether it's with anger or whether it's with extreme sadness or whether it's with real frustration, it's tempting for you to think, why didn't you do this two hours ago when you were in school? The level of frustration you feel now about this piece of maths homework that's meant to take 10 minutes, and we're killing each other trying to get it done. If if only you'd asked your teacher how to do it.
SPEAKER_02And we all think the best person, if I could ring, hello, Mrs. Johnson, can you just come and deal with this? And and people do.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02They email and they ask because that's what they want.
SPEAKER_00They do, Mrs.
SPEAKER_02Johnson, here she is to fix it.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I cannot do this homework, and it's unreasonable you've expected me to do it. Or what's wrong with me that we can't do 10 minutes of homework?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But the kitchen explosion doesn't happen two hours ago, it happens in the kitchen.
SPEAKER_02Or the sadness over the the death of a grandparent, or the I'm just going to ring the would you like to come and talk to my child about death in heaven?
SPEAKER_00Because yes. What why can't this happen in three days' time when you're in your Sunday school? In fact, let's just let's just box up this issue and and at the end of the Sunday school session, why don't you just ask your amazing Sunday school teacher who's so good? She'll say clever things. She'll say clever things. So we're sat thinking, why can't it be two hours ago? Why can't it be in three days' time? And the answer is because there's a reason your child has exploded in your kitchen. It's their kitchen and you're their mum. You're their dad. You are the first port. You are the one they want to talk to. It's not a coincidence. It's not that they've taken names out of a hat and oh, look, it's dad who's come out. It's they want to talk to you because you're the one they feel safe with. You're the one they want to express their deepest frustration with. Amy taught me behavior is communication. Their frustration, they're expressing, they're throwing a pencil across a room. That's them explaining.
SPEAKER_02They're shouting in your kitchen. We say to ourselves in our heads, this is a privilege. This is a privilege.
SPEAKER_00You're right, Amy. This is a privilege. That's it.
SPEAKER_02I am their safe place.
SPEAKER_00That's it. This is this is so good for me, Amy. I'm learning this. When you get the kitchen explosion, you say to yourself But they wouldn't do why would you not do this for anyone else?
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Exactly. It's not because everyone else, they have to hold it together, and everyone else, they have to pretend that they know what they're doing, and everyone else, they have to be the acceptable version of them, and you get the ugly shouter. Right.
SPEAKER_00And rather than thinking, I am to blame, I feel guilty, I've done something wrong. That I get this in the kitchen. Or rather, being angry, how dare you be this angry in your kitchen? How dare you speak to me like this, and how dare you throw a pencil across the room?
SPEAKER_02It is a hundred percent supposed to be.
SPEAKER_00It is a privilege. This is a privilege. Kitchen explosions are a privilege. Say after me, kitchen explosions are a privilege. This is a helpful thing to say to yourself.
SPEAKER_02And we are going to go, what could be going on here? What is the bigger story? Like, you see, I'm telling you this now. You believe me.
SPEAKER_00I believe me. I believe me. Listeners, believe me. We are convincing, Amy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And then they go home and they meet their own child who's shouting at them about vegetables and go, what was it I'm supposed to do again?
SPEAKER_00Okay, so Amy, a kitchen explosion is happening. Yeah. And in the back of your mind, you're thinking, I am to blame. I have not prepared my child adequately for multiplication and division. I have not trained my child adequately in how to have good friendships at school. Could you tell me, just Amy, what is it you'd love to take a breath, even in the explosion, count to three, and just what's the one thing you want to say to yourself in that moment?
SPEAKER_02Oh, to myself?
SPEAKER_00Yes. Because I'd love in the moment of I suddenly am blaming myself and I can't even work out what to say to the child because I'm just in a pit of guilt. What's the thing you're going to say to yourself that might enable you to then speak to your child?
SPEAKER_02This is the way it is meant to be.
SPEAKER_00Goodness, Amy. Really?
SPEAKER_02This is the way it's meant to be. This is the privilege. For this, they need a parent.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02For this, they need the person who can say, How can I help you? What's going on? If they were capable of dealing with all of these things, they could live independently. They can't. They need help. So when they're shouting at you, all they're saying is, I can't cope and I need help. If they said to you, I can't cope and I need help, you would respond with love and compassion. Because they're shouting with you, it's not fair or not even using words, just using other things and breaking stuff and damaging things. All they're saying to you is, I can't cope and I need help. So hear yelling, hear whatever, I can't cope and I need help.
SPEAKER_00And let's just take it one step further. I can't cope. I need help. Practically, practically I don't want to go to school ever again. I am not going to school tomorrow. If you loved me, you wouldn't send me to school tomorrow. I am not going. Will you just give us what are the next ten minutes, Amy?
SPEAKER_02How can I help? I'm sorry you feel that way. School must be really hard. This must be really sad. I need to understand more about why you feel this way. Okay. Sit down next to you on the floor.
SPEAKER_00Do you distract them and do something else, Amy? Just because you want to take away the peak emotion, or do you just keep going?
SPEAKER_02No, I think well, you're just trying to calm down. So you're trying to have you're trying to move from yelling to to exploring. Right. So it depends on what what age you are. So I think if you're like seven and up, uh, we're trying to okay, okay, I hear you. You're using your voice to bring stuff down. Uh I hear you. This sounds really hard. So I'm not saying don't be ridiculous. So I'm not meeting your yelling with my yelling. I I'm oh, this is something that is not okay. I need to understand. Help me understand. And then let's work out what we can do. And then let's work out what it looks like to trust Jesus together in this. So, Ed, we've talked about the parent. So the the child needs the parent, and they need the parent to respond, and they need the parent to come and help.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02Um, God's good design is child, parent, yeah, church.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So how do we therefore how do we need a church? What does church do? Because what we should definitely do is not let anybody at church know about the yelling and the vegetables and the homework and the meltdown.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02Because when you walk into church, I want people to see the best of me, and I want them to be delighted that I'm here.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and and we've just told you that 92% of Christian mums feel weighed down by guilt. So next time you walk into church, you could start by thinking, I bet every mum in this room feels like I do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And if you're the dad who feels ashamed of the anger you felt this week at your child's frustration at their normal life, then you do I I don't know if every other dad in the church is like that. But what's certain is you walk into a church of imperfect people who are weighed down by mistakes and shame and difficulty. And we could be the first ones to talk about it because we'll actually be blessing others by them saying, Oh my goodness, that's you too. The verse I go to, Amy, 1 Timothy 5. Uh listen to this story of uh what the church is meant to be. Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity. The young man in church who is making the nuts decision, rather than despairing of him and thinking, Well, I'm done with him, he is my younger brother, and I'm for him. The older man who is struggling with his health, and he is struggling to see the brightness this week. He is your father. You're going to speak to him with tenderness and care and patience and feeling certain he's got insight and wisdom to offer you for your situation. Now, Amy, if you don't mind me saying, this is where the research comes out.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00More numbers. More numbers, Amy. These ones are winning. There's an organization called the Fuller Institute in America. About 20 years ago, they did some research. They called it sticky faith because they set out to understand what it is that makes faith stick into adulthood. So what they're noticing and seeing is that just as it is now in the UK, about half of those who grow up in Christian homes keep faith into adulthood. But that means about half of those who grow up in Christian homes don't keep faith into adulthood.
SPEAKER_02And is that because their parents did everything wrong, they were too angry and too guilty, and it's all their fault? They should have watched less tele.
SPEAKER_00The research did not say that okay.
SPEAKER_02Okay. What it sought to understand the research helps us understand that Jesus saves not parenting. That's a later episode. Carry on.
SPEAKER_00That's the later episode. That's that's the research will be handed in heaven.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00In the meantime, they found out that the main conclusion of sticky faith is that it's all about the number five. So I can just uh I'm gonna give you a little. Every young person should have a team of five caring adults investing in their life in addition to their parents. This is often referred to as the five to one ratio. So it's the reverse of the traditional ministry-staffing ratio that if you have one adult, you can have five children. Okay. Instead, it's for every child you need five adults. So that it doesn't need to be an intense coach-mentor relationship. It could just be as simple as someone to ask how your week has gone. It could be someone to remember your birthday, someone who prays with you after a difficult conversation, who is just attending the football match on the sideline with your mum. It could be a grandparent, it could be a big brother in the faith.
SPEAKER_02So the Sunday school teacher probably also counts, but it's it's it's also like the person in church who just is interested.
SPEAKER_00The grandparent figure, yeah, who just as you rush to get a biscuit says, How did the maths go this week? Because you told me about it last week. Yeah. The big the big brother figure who's so cool and so out of reach and so very good at football and always wears hip shorts. But he remembers your name. He remembers your name and lets you sit next to him during the songs. It could be the big sister figure who is just so achingly beautiful. Her hair is amazing. I've noticed little girls really notice hair.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00That's not what I'm thinking. Okay, great. Little girls think about big girls and particularly the ones playing the flute in the music group.
SPEAKER_02Yes. I always wanted to be there.
SPEAKER_00Flute playing girls with hair.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00That big sister figure who lets you plait her hair, who lets you just sit in the room.
SPEAKER_02Or says to you, I really like your shoes.
SPEAKER_00I really like your shoes. These uh the the bar is set low. The bar is simply at I've noticed you and I'm for you. And and clearly, we would love each of these people to take a spiritual step forward into our children's lives. Uh, the grandparent figure who says, Why don't we pray about this week after what you've just told me? And I'm not gonna delay you running off with a biscuit. Not a long prayer, just one sentence. Yeah, the big sister who just simply says at the end of the conversation, you know Jesus has that, don't you? The big brother figure, they don't talk about Jesus. Imagine being that encouraging 19-year-old who says to the 10-year-old, I'm gonna pray about this week, what you've just told me. That would blow the mind of a 10-year-old. Okay. So who are these people? And and the obvious question is, is if you're a parent listening to this.
SPEAKER_02Oh, everyone's desperately counting through their fives.
SPEAKER_00Are they, Amy? Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02We're all like, Oh, I've a oh, I have a phone.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so to be clear, it could be an actual grandparent. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't have to, it's not only in your local church. Okay. If you've got a godparent or you've just got a best mate, Uncle Phil.
SPEAKER_02And I also want to say, so when you when you're populating your five, like nobody panic, the bar is low, but also it would be great if they knew. Give people permission. Well, I'd love, would you pray for my child? Would you like uh remember them? They're look, I'd love, I'd love you to be involved in their lives because they think you're really cool.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02Would you come round for dinner?
SPEAKER_00Yes. And can I say the thing that um feels risky to say? When you look at the research, what you find out is these kinds of relationships actually have an even bigger impact on the lives of our children than the teaching they do on a Sunday.
SPEAKER_02Now, you and I have both taught Sunday school and still teach Sunday school, and I love it, and I think it's huge.
SPEAKER_00More than that, you and I spend most of our waking hours writing Sunday school. We are the ones who are giving people good Sunday school resources.
SPEAKER_02So the secret don't hear from this church doesn't matter in the actual sort of organized functions of it.
SPEAKER_00Of course it does. Of course it does. But what we learn is the biggest impact on children and young people is not. Do you remember what chapter of Nehemiah is the bit where they built the wall? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But the reality is the person who's passionate about teaching them Nehemiah is the person who's going to be asking, How did that birthday party go? And how can I pray for you?
SPEAKER_00Yes. So Sunday school leaders, you need to hear from us. It is amazing you are teaching which chapter of Nehemiah is Nehemiah building a wall. But what matters even more is when you look at the child and say, That is such a good answer. I'm so pleased to see you in here today.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Can we just pray together before you leave and your mum collects you? Those moments.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, this is the good news I want to tell you. And I can't wait to hear the good news you want to tell me because the the dream is that these worlds meet. Yes. So that you're coming back to tell me this is what I did, was up to this week. I can see how God is at work here.
SPEAKER_00Brenda is not only the one who told me about Nehemiah, Brenda was the one who always was patient with me.
SPEAKER_02My Sunday school teacher, my favourite Sunday school teacher growing up, the most exciting things I remember, the colouring in, doing lots of colour. I love the arty stuff, doing arty things, but also um took me swimming and uh gave me a hot dog. And when my baby brother was born, made such a fuss of me. I mean I still mattered.
SPEAKER_00Amy, you uh you've never told me that. Have I not? No.
SPEAKER_02Uncle Roy took me, took me to the swimming baths with the rest of our class. We had hot dogs, and on the first of the Sunday I came to church when with my baby brother, when everyone's just gonna be making a fuss of that noisy thing, he met me at the door with his arms wide. Said, it's so great to see you.
SPEAKER_00If you are teaching Sunday school and you're sat at your desk trying to work out how are we gonna make sense of this class, thank you for doing it. But secondly, just the fact you're in the room and your arms are wide, hot dogs, hot dogs let's bring hot dogs, hot dogs let's bring hot dogs to church on Sunday because it's not just that it's memorable, it's that it just speaks of love and care and out of the ordinary. Can we be creatively loving? And you could end up with an Amy one day because of hot dogs and a swimming lesson. Yeah, that blows my mind, Amy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So look, there we go. That is the summary of what we've been talking about today. For the parent who's feeling at September exhaustion, yeah. We we've we've got the good news to go again. We're not burdened by guilt, we're not, you know, our anger does not define us. We can we we can also know that we are absolutely supposed to be the person in the kitchen, in the tears at bedtime. We are the parent around the child with their church family around us. This is the good design that God has for parenting. You've got this.
SPEAKER_00Amy, thank you so much. Um would you pray for us, Amy? I would.
SPEAKER_02Love to. Let's pray. Uh Father, for all the different uh situations that we're facing at this point um in the year, for the for the tantrums and the exhaustion, and for those that are finding change difficult, and for parents that are trying to work out how to respond. Uh Father, we thank you that we have Jesus. Uh, we have a Messiah, we don't need to be one, but we do thank you for the amazing privilege we have to be the ones that show your love, that show your care, that show your patience, that show your grace, that um that rub the truth of your word and your love into the wounds of our kids' everyday lives. Uh Father, we pray too that you'd help us to lean into our churches. Uh, we pray that you'd help us to be brave, to be honest, and to know how to help one another, uh, to know how to invite others in. Thank you for your good design. And Father, we do pray for children. Uh, we pray for the children, the families that are listening. Father, this is this is our heart. Uh confident parents, thriving churches, working together because what we want to see is children who trust you forever. You are good. Help us to cling to you. Amen.
SPEAKER_00Amen. Amy, what's next?
SPEAKER_02We're off to think about um some of the opportunities that come our way. So we're looking down, what's coming next? We're thinking about Halloween, and we're thinking about the struggles of how to live differently. So when our children say, Why can't I be like everybody else? Halloween is an opportunity for us to step up as families, but it's also an opportunity for us to talk about what is distinctive about us as Christians.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And just to be clear, if you don't like Halloween, it's absolutely fine because what this story is about is just the next example of the great conversations we can have. Yeah. Because of what the Lord is placing in front of us in the supermarket aisle.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's exactly that.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much. I can't wait to be there, Amy. Should we say goodbye?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, see you next time. Bye.
SPEAKER_00Bye bye.