Looking to God #3 | Building our Children's Resilience with Jean Hedley

Why do some children save their biggest meltdowns for home? And what’s the best way to respond when your child is struggling?

Trauma counsellor Jean Hedley joins us to share practical help, gospel hope, and simple tools for navigating big emotions. Plus, discover the question that’s often better than asking, “What’s wrong with you?”

A warm, honest conversation about listening well, spotting when children are struggling, and pointing them to the God who never leaves them.

Jean Hedley has 20 years experience working as a counsellor, 15 of which were as a children and young people’s trauma counsellor for a national children’s charity. She lives in Newcastle with her husband and is Mam to 3 grown up boys.

Looking to God: Mental Wellbeing in the Psalms

Faith in Families podcast

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Behaviour's a language, and some children don't have the words to say what's going on for them, whether they're whatever they're feeling, but their behaviour will give us a picture of that if they're lashing out or swearing or whatever. Don't ignore those behaviours, don't disregard them, don't judge them and say, Why are you so angry? You know, that's kind of the worst thing to say, but you just seem so angry today. I wonder what's happening, what's happened for you? It's just a kinder tone, it's a kinder presentation, really.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Hello, you're listening to the Faith in Parents episode. I'm Amy Smith, I'm a resource writer for Faith in Kids. I love parents, I love supporting and encouraging parents. I've been in kids ministry for more than 20 years, and I'm joined this morning by the lovely Ed. Ed, tell us who you are and what we're doing today.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

It's always a pleasure to be with you, Amy. I'm the Ministry Director at Faith in Kids, and this is just one more episode of Faith in Parents, where we're walking parents through what is the everyday with their children with Jesus for them and their family. We are in this series in Looking to God, mental well-being in the Psalms, and can I say it's been a wildly popular story so far? Our emails are coming in, the comments and the questions are coming in. You can always send us a message, podcast at faithinkids.org. Today we are looking at what it is to walk our children through the most difficult times. How do we support them in that, knowing God is with them and for them? Amy, please introduce our host. Please get us talking.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Well, we've got a very special guest today, one of my favourite humans. We have the lovely Jean. Now, Jean um is a lovely mammy from Newcastle, so we're all gonna fall in love with her as we hear her accent. Uh, Jean, introduce yourself, tell us where you're from, and tell us who is at home.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Thank you for that, Amy. I'm Jean, I'm from Newcastle, as you've already said. I live up in Newcastle in Geordeland with my husband. We've got three sons, but they're grown up now. Two are in their twenties, one is in his early 30s. Uh so my life is very different now. Dynamics very different in the house. It used to be a very noisy, lively house, so it's a lot calmer now. My my one of my sons is a teacher, so he gets obviously extended holidays. So he's still at home, which is lovely because it means I can do, I do actually get still get to spend time with him, which is very nice.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

So, Jean, apart from being a lovely mummy, uh tell us a little bit about what you have been doing for most of your working life.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Well, I spent I left school and spent 20 years in industry. Um, I left then and spent 10 years at home being a full-time wife and mother. Then when the boys got to um all got into full-time education, I went to college and I qualified as a counsellor. So I've spent the last sort of 15, 20 years working as a counsellor. I've worked in various projects um for domestic violence in the GP practice. And then the last 15 years I worked worked for a national charity, and that was as a children and young people's trauma counsellor. Uh so that was working with the kind of really uncomfortable topics of sexual abuse and bereavement. That was made redundant last year, and that's just slipped me into retirement now.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

And I'm sure, Jean, I know that's been a little bit of a journey, but uh the time that you've spent uh working alongside children who've been through some of the worst things, um, I think that's the encouragement for me as a as a mum whose kids don't perhaps go through the worst things, but still go through uh tough days. Um, I know you've always been really helpful uh talking about how we can help our children. Can you tell me a little bit what it looked like uh in your day when you sat in a room talking to children who'd been through the worst of situations? Uh what did it look like? What did you do? What what happened?

SPEAKER_01 4:14

There was, I can honestly say, with all the children I've ever worked with, there was never a set pattern because every child is different, and every child deals with whether it's a bereavement or whatever, that deal with it differently. So it was every time I was meeting a child, I was focused on that child. That was the important, they were the important people in the in the room. Obviously, we'd have an introduction meeting where I would meet them with the parent or carer, and then after that, it was just me and the child, working with ages from four up to eighteen, that was the criteria, although sometimes we did have adults coming in as well. So it's really focusing on the child, kind of for a couple of counseling sessions. Remember, this is a process. This is I was seeing them for a set number of weeks, usually six or eight weeks, sometimes a lot longer. So it was kind of kind of getting a rapport with them, kind of establishing um, did they want to talk? Because some of them would come in and say, I'm not going to talk, I'm not talking to you. Say absolutely fine, because they didn't want to talk about this horrible stuff that's happened to their body or in their lives. I'd say that's fine, we don't have to. So it's meeting each child as they present, do they want to talk? And if they didn't, let's play. So it would be a room full of toys with all sorts of uh materials in it, and they could choose what they wanted to do. And imagine having that an hour with an uh this well with an old woman, but being able to do whatever they wanted, they're not going to get told off, they're not going to be given a project to do, draw something specific. Just do what you want. And of course, as they played, it's never in a counselling session, it's never just play. There's always some therapeutic element that has to be, because I'm the therapist there. So I would be, with their permission, come alongside them and join in the play. It might be colouring in, painting, playing in the sandpit, it might just be playing a game of cards, but work play coming alongside them, you're building barriers straight away, and kind of instigating relevant conversations, because that's how that's all about what it was doing, instigating relevant topics, things that were relevant to them, bringing getting their perspective on things.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

So that that already helps us as parents, because it already helps. You started by saying the key is just to concentrate on the child in front of you. So for instance, you it would never have occurred to you, but put down your phone, stop, stop what you're writing, sit down, look at them. That's a brilliant starting point for us all. We're also thinking, as we're here, Jean, that that you're dealing in the worst of situations, and I suspect by the time you're in a room with a child or a young person, everyone is clear about that. Do you think you could just give us some help with with parents who are usually dealing with far lower level concerns? What would be some of the signs, some of the indicators that a parent might see that their child is struggling, their child is finding things difficult. If you were talking to a parent about what to look for that would help them know how their child is, if they weren't explaining it, what do you think? Where would be the starting point?

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Obviously, we have a big responsibility as a parent. So it's about really um watching our child, looking for changes, looking for maybe differences, changes in their behaviours, in the language that they're using. Um, but we have to be really observant and look for changes. And of course, we have to be remembered changes can happen for very natural reasons. You know, we're talking about children who are going to go through adolescence, so we know that mood swings and changes can prevail then, but we have to try and get alongside them. Um, you know, is there a change in their behavior? Are they angrier than normal? Are they quieter, or they're grumpier, or they just more surly? You know, what what is going on here? So we have to be vigilant about that. And my favourite saying is, and I think I've probably said it to you before, Amy, behavior is a language. So if the behaviour, however it is, is it the bottom end of the scale or is off the rigder scale, behavior is a language. And some children don't have the words to say what's going on for them, whether they're whatever they're feeling, but the behavior will give us a picture of that if they're lashing out or swearing or whatever, you know, that that's really important. So we haven't to we have to focus on that. What is that behaviour saying? What is being said? Um, words obviously can be very difficult for children, even teenagers, words are difficult for children. So we have to be aware of uh just trying to get in there. Um don't ignore those behaviours, don't disregard them, mention them, don't judge them and say, Why are you so angry? You know, that's kind of the worst thing to say. You are so angry, you seem so angry today. I wonder what's happening, what's happened for you? It's just a kinder tone, it's a kind of presentation, really.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

Now, as parents listening, we know, oh no, I've done that. So our child has come home from school and they've been grumpy or they've been quiet or they've been a bit, you know, huffy off on the sofa, and we've gone, what's the matter with you? Um, which is not the tone that you've just suggested. Uh so that whole thing of in the normal ups and downs of everyday life, there's going to be, you know, something didn't go wrong, didn't go well at school, or I got two out of ten on my spelling test, and that sort of huffy behaviour might not last, but we might get to sit next to them and they might be able to tell us, or they might not, and we might give them a cuddle. Um, but what would it look like uh for something to be carrying on a bit longer? What might we see if it's not just a one thing happened, if it's a longer issue, like I'm feeling sad or I'm being bullied, or something that we need to respond to a bit more.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

So that's something, and that's going to be a conversation that's over a longer period of time, isn't it? And when I'm saying conversation, I don't mean a conversation that we would I would have with a friend over a coffee where you sit and talk for an hour and a half, or you know, even a 20-minute phone call, it might be a two-minute chat, it might be just a very brief, you know, that conversation with a child, it can be brief. It's too it might be two minutes, it might be 20 minutes, we don't know. Um, but being prepared to listen, you know, yes, you you said at the beginning about listening, putting your phone down, yes. And obviously, we have to be prepared to listen and just jump in when they're ready to talk, because you might be prepared and you're already the chat and I want to talk to them when they're getting from school today. And actually, today's the worst day for them. They do not want to have to talk to you at all. So actually, we need to back off. We need to back off and go at their pace as a counsellor. We we call it I was a child, um child-centered counselor. So it's the child at the center and go at their pace. You know, when we're not going to judge and we're not gonna bang on at them about well, what are you what's going on? What's the matter? Who's what what's upsetting you? Just stay alongside them, but let them know that you listen, let them know that you care and that you're wanting to help. You know, is there anything I can do to help? What's going on here? I love it.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Thank you. And and um that these in this series we're doing, I'm you'll be delighted to hear, it's reassuring, I think, that we we keep hearing some common messages, which is for instance, uh, be slow to say, no, that can't be right, or why would you have done that? Or that, or if you just stop doing that, it'll be okay. That just to allow a child to know they're being listened to, they can trust you. And I I know as we speak to parents, that can feel quite patronizing. Well, look, I'm I'm their parent, of course they trust me. But just in that moment, particularly if they've not spoken to you about this thing before, just to come from the place of let them speak, create an atmosphere where you're not distracted, they're not distracted, maybe even be in a different place, or go on a walk, or be in a car journey, so that they know that they can feel the silence. You're listening, you're caring. And I'm sure there's going to be words you drop in like thank you. Why don't you tell me how that felt? Uh how are you feeling now? Uh what have you understood about that? What was difficult? Jean, could you also tell us? Um it's clear that schools are doing their very best to teach some of these strategies. I was talking to a teacher yesterday, and she was fascinating because she's been out the classroom for 15 years, and she's saying it it's a it's a different world, and it and she's saying it's all positive. Uh, that children are being taught they can go away to a quiet place when they just feel overwhelmed. There is a sort of indicator board where they can show the mood they're feeling. Uh of the strategies you're hearing about, Jean, are there certain ones that you just think, okay, that's gold? Is it are there certain strategies? Because as a parent, I'm thinking I've never heard about any of these things. And these aren't things I'm doing in my home at all. I don't invite my child to get down from the table and sit in a corner quietly. I call that being huffy. But are there some of these strategies, Gene, that you're hearing about in schools that you're thinking, that's brilliant? We could all be doing that.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

That's quite a tricky question. And I absolutely agree. Um, schools are being really um mindful and getting involved with the children and offering them strategies rather than, you know, I hate to say, but in my day, you know, you would get a strap on your hand, or you'd get the blackboard ruler on your bottom if you were a boy. So it's completely different now, which is thankfully that's that's finished. I think for what one of the things that I used to do with the kind of ten upwards of age was um encouraging them to take time out rather than explode with a teacher or with a with a friend, just hang on, don't say anything. Count it, it's count a 10. That's it that the the you know traditional one. But I say, can you count a 20? Can you count from 20 backwards? Because you've got to concentrate a little bit more to do from 20 backwards. If they're slightly older and they can, can you count a 20 in twos just before you explode? I worked with a lovely 14-year-old, she was about 14, constantly getting kicked out of classes for just exploding and swearing at the teacher. And she didn't really want to be kicked out of the class because she loved the lesson and she was a clever girl. And um, we worked through things, and there was, you know, she would come into a session, she'd say, Oh, you'll never believe what happened at school today. That's the right, come on, tell us then what happened. And then there'll be some, she'd call the teacher and you know, be a mouthful of expletives, and of course, she'd be straight out of the lesson. And then she was in really bad mood because then she missed the lesson, and art is a favourite. So, oh my goodness, this is not working, is it? So we did a little thing where we said, right, can you count? How about count to 20 in twos just before you go at it with this mouth of expletives to the teacher? Well, I could try, I suppose. Well, just give it a try, just to say, just to dispel that moment. And this is absolutely true. She came the next week, you go, you never believe what happened. I counted to 20 and I didn't call her what I wanted to call her. That was the teacher. And I said, that is fantastic. I am so proud of you. Try that again another time, you know. So it's it's just kind of um trying to get them to, it's it's really kind of trying to get them to regulate themselves, isn't it? Take a little bit of time out, just regulate their emotions, just get a little bit of self-control. So Canton was, although that's a an old one, that's I used to find that was a good one. And we used that bit a few times. Yeah, it did.

unknown 16:23

It worked.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

And I can see, like as you tell that story, I can imagine her beaming face because she's used to being told off, she's used to being kicked out, and you told her how proud you were. You said, try this, she tried it, it worked. She came back with a win, and she she got a win and she got you to say that you were proud of her. Oh, amazing. Jean, um, I hear from a lot of dads uh who say things like, I just don't know where to start. You know, I ask my kid how was their day and they say fine, and that's it. So, how do I get more of a conversation going? I think when you were telling us about uh in your therapy room earlier, and you were coming alongside and you were starting to play alongside, like, what does it look like to bring that into a conversation about something that matters rather than just oh you look funny with that hat on, or can we build a Lego tower?

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Training as a counselor, you work through that. Supposing we're building a tower with Lego and then it falls over, a younger one at really high tower and then it falls over, that could be the end of the world to them. So it's kind of kind of almost mirror their reaction, mirror their emotions. Oh, you're annoyed, I'm annoyed, I did not want that to happen. What are we gonna do? We'll have to change it. It's kind of I would often have controlled anger in the counselling room. Um also it's like if they give you a snippet of something that's happened at school or wherever, rather than going, oh, you must be sick of that, you must be really annoyed with that, we can try a slightly different approach. Do you know what you've just told me? If that happened to me, I would be really upset. Is that how you feel? And the chances are they go yes or they might go no, because I've got it wrong, but then they might tell me what's going on. So if we can just get a little snippet of what's happened, and then we can that's open in a conversation. But as the play, I used to um use I used to say it was exaggerated emotional responses. So if we're playing cards and I won, I would be over the top with the celebration in this council room. If I lost, I'll be over the top, disappointed that I lost. But it's all giving them permission to display these emotions, you know, but they're contained, it's not over the top. I'm not going to start, you know, throwing things around the room or punching the door or punching my dad or whatever. It's other the person, but it's just about controlling things, but just being honest with those feelings, you know, and and I guess for dad, be honest with your feelings. You could say, actually, I've had a bad day because, and it might be something really trivial. I went for a coffee and I had no money. I hadn't be I can pick my wallet up, it might be anything, but just you know, it's the emotions we're trying to get to, really. And that emotion opens the child up, and that's where we're going, because we're going in there to talk about what's what's happening for them, and then obviously we're gonna start and try and equip them for for the next day or the next phase in the life.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

I love that, Gene. And I think there's a thing where as parents we can feel afraid that we're putting ideas in our kids' heads. So when I name an emotion or I say, Are you feeling that I like they're gonna latch onto that? And and I think what I've learnt as a mum is that they don't. Like if I say, Is it this or is it this or is it this, or is it this, they'll tell me no, no, they they quite like telling me that I've got it wrong. Or if I give them three options, they might say, Oh no, it's the fourth one that you haven't thought of. So, like actually talking about it and opening up the conversation helps. Ed, quick, ask a question because I could talk to Gene all day.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

Gene, um we started, I started by asking you about the everyday family where the issues we're talking about are probably relatively minor compared to the issues you're talking about. Maybe a struggle with a friendship at school or missing a friend who's moved away, or something of that order. You're used to dealing with families who are going through the worst of things that we could probably imagine as we sit here. What are the encouragements for a family who feels like this is the worst of times? I mean, I I'm sure they are clear the situation they're in. I'm sure you don't have to spell out the problems you've got in front of you. But where did you offer hope? What what what were the kinds of things you could say that that weren't just sugarcoating it or even lying, but would say and maybe as a Christian gene, y there were other things you were just thinking that maybe you didn't always say.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

As a Christian at times I had to bite my tongue because if I started giving a little Christian message, I probably would have gotten a sack, you know, and that that's in mainstream in in any employment, we have to be very careful at what we say. It's still about uh listening, being really careful, listening and saying to the parent, you know, acknowledging that actually some of the cases that I worked with, it was the worst of times. It was horrendous. But that um they then not to blame. We have a huge responsibility bringing our children up, haven't we? We've got um we've got to feed them, we've got to clothe them, we've got to understand them, we've got to support them. But we we're not fully responsible for their responses for the for what they do. So we can't take all the blame for what they're going through. So I I guess for parents, don't take the blame. There's a saying, don't take all the credit and don't take all the blame. But I think that's a really big one that we don't take the credit, give the credit to the child. They've been resilient or they've achieved, but don't take all the blame. And I guess a child might be exemplary at school, and many of my children were, because they'd because they've been through horrific stuff with their bodies, and they were used to keeping quiet and keeping secrets and not telling anybody. So they were exemplary at school, but boy, did they explode at home. You know, school would be different. And you know, the how many parents would say to us, you know, I'm sure the school don't believe us when I tell them what they do at at home. I'm sure they won't accept that because they've got this perfect pupil in front of them. But obviously, home is the safe place. School will kick you out. You're not going to get kicked out at home, generally. Sometimes it does happen, but generally you're going to be okay at home. That's the safe place where you can explode and you can say what you think, and you can be really cross and grumpy, and uh you can still be alive the next day. And I think also for parents, if they're going through a really rough time, look for the little wins. You mentioned the little wins or the wins before, um Amy. Look for those little wins, whether it's a smile, whether it's a two-minute chat, whether it's uh they just helped you in the kitchen or just something they've told you, look for those and acknowledge them and give the child real credit for that. You know, thank you for telling me that. You know, I really appreciate that. Or, you know, just encourage them for that. That's brilliant to hear that. As a Christian, I guess, you know, our children are important to us and we love them and we care about them, and that's why we're doing, you know, you're doing this work, and that's why we pray about it and bring our children to God. And also there's somebody that loves us just as we love our children, and that's our God, you know, that's our Heavenly Father. He loves us, we are important to Him as our children are important to us. And I guess the difference is as parents, we sometimes get it wrong. Parents are carriers, we get it wrong sometimes. We're human and we can let people down, and we'll maybe as we'll let our children down with the weather with we're reaction. But the good news is as a Christian, you know, we know that actually God doesn't let us down. You you know, you prayed at this at the beginning, Ed, and said, you know, about the psalm that God gives his love and his faithfulness, and that's what we've got, isn't it? We've got his he's got faithfulness, he doesn't get things wrong, he gets it right all the time. Sometimes we can't say it, but um that's got to keep us going, that's got to keep parents going as well, our hope.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Jean, I know for a lot of parents listening, um, they're going through that feeling right now of, you know, I'm getting it wrong and I'm not doing enough. And particularly that narrative of the child that is so well behaved at home at school and then losing it at home, of course, it makes the parent think, well, it's my fault then, isn't it? Because when they're with me, they're awful, and when they're in school, they're fine. So I'm doing everything wrong, and I have to change everything that I'm doing. Um, and I think I know when I felt in a similar way to that, you were an amazing person, you just keep shouting at me, just keep loving them. And I think that that picture of God puts children in families who love them and who love them when they're at their worst, because that just gives us a picture of what of what God is like. He loves us at our worst and He keeps He just keeps on going with us. Um Jean, just push into that a little bit more for me. For for the mum or or the dad who's just in that moment thinking, well, it is all me, because because they are fine at school and there are they are awful at home. Uh, what could we pray? Um and and and and how could you help us? Just encourage me again.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

It is hard, and and you can feel really alone, even as a Christian, you feel alone, don't you, if you've got a trauma with your child or really constant, you know, long-term upset. And this is absolutely genuine. The verse that keeps me going and has kept me going for many, many years now is in a psalm where it says, Oh Lord, you understand my thoughts from afar. So we can feel it, nobody knows what I'm going through. Nobody can get this. If I tell people the thing I'm loopy, they'll think I'm stupid, they'll think I'm pathetic. But actually, oh Lord, you understand my thoughts. He understands our thoughts like nobody else does. So that's a really important thing. We can't see sometimes light at the end of the tunnel, but there is a light. We know that there's a light because God's put it there, and that's why it's called salvation, you know. Um, and it's consistent, you know. We can get things wrong. God never does, He's got a consistent love, it's his promise, he's always there. Um, nothing can separate us from the love of God. That's you know, that's got to keep going. That's got to be almost one mantra, you know.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

I love that, Jean. I love the way that she says it's war mantra as well, Ed. That's that's special. That's special.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Gene, this um this session that this podcast is coming alongside is one in Psalm 57. And uh as we have been writing this, we've been thinking about this word resilience. That I I think I'm not sure that word it felt like I don't think it existed 15 years ago. Like I'm sure people used it in an engineering sense, but we're now talking about this a lot with children, and and in this psalm, we see a different story to resilience. Uh it's a psalm where David is being hunted. There is an army after him, and he's still Ed.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Sorry, tell us the psalm we're in again. I missed that.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

Amy, thank you. You did that as gently as you could have done. We're in Psalm 57, and uh we have this verse that I've learned to love in verse 4. I am in the midst of lions. That's how David feels. I am forced to dwell among ravenous beasts. Men whose teeth are spears and arrows, whose tongues are sharp swords. It's a it's an image of well, I mean, because it because he's using figurative language, this is how our children could feel. I feel like I'm surrounded by lions. I feel like the children around me at school have got the sharpest of claws. I feel like they could rip me to shreds. You know, we could imagine a child feeling that vulnerable. And yet in this psalm we also have My heart, O God is steadfast, my heart is steadfast, and I'll sing and make music. Jean, I I I'm not even sure I know what the question is, but I I think that I think there's a big difference, it seems to me, between the resilience that we're being offered away from Christian things, which is really sort of we can get back up, spring up ability, we can we can see every failure as a chance to win, which I'm sure is true. And this kind of resilience where it comes from the fact I can sing to God. I know I the claws are real, the teeth are real of these lines, but I know he's there. Gene, you I I suspect there must be so many thoughts you had that you you probably can't share in a counselling session of how good God is and how he is the comfort. Gene, I really am trying to work out what the question is. I think it's something like Gene, is this the resilience you've seen from being a Christian?

SPEAKER_01 29:50

Yes, I guess it is, really. Um it takes resilience on my part to offer children support, uh, because obviously you hear week by week horrific stories. Um, but it's also acknowledging the resilience that these children are presenting with. Because, you know, some of the children that I've met, I would think, I don't know how you are functioning. I don't know how you're holding your head up and walking around because I would be just curled up in a bowl and rocking, and I would just be there for years. So the resilience is there, really, with the children. So I guess it's you know, I've always encouraged that and encouraged the children acknowledging the resilience that they're showing, that they're presenting with. And even just that they're walking, coming to see me once a week, that is brilliant. Can't believe you've come back this week. That's brilliant. I am so pleased that to see you, you know, that's a resilience in itself. Okay, obviously, younger ones they've been brought to me by a parent or a carer or a social worker, but just acknowledging their strength, really, because that's so important. And I guess it's tricky because the world puts pressure on us. We can do anything we want, can't we? But where we as Christians, we say we want to do anything God puts in in front of us. We're not, it's not what we're own strength that we're living in, it's God's strength. Well, I guess in a counselling session, especially when the children are younger, we're talking about their own strength. It what's got you through this? You how are you still doing it? How are you getting such good marks at school? You know, encouraging them there. So it's kind of a it's almost twofold the resilience, isn't it? Resilience in God for me, but resilience in themselves and with others for the younger children, really. I don't know if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

It does, and we we know that every good gift and every perfect gift comes from God. So even the ability for children, even if they don't know it, it's still God's goodness at work in their life, and even the provision of counselling and help and parents that are bringing them to sessions, and all we can see the big awful issue, and we can also see all the little wins of the people that God has placed around. In the same way, Jean, that you're saying, you're looking for that little the smile and the response. We can see in the midst of horrible situations, like God's goodness still at work, and it gives us it gives us hope to carry on. Ed, I wanted to ask you um a bit about in the psalm that you were talking about, it talks about sort of that ability to cry out to God and to know his help. Um, David is talking about the situation and then he starts talking about God, and he starts talking about his the heavens and God's goodness. Um, and there's a phrase that I particularly love. Um Awake my soul, awake harp and lyre, I will awaken the dawn. What does it look like, Ed, in the middle of a situation to cry out to God? Is it just praying? Is it more than that? What does it mean to awaken the dawn?

SPEAKER_02 33:03

We ran a session actually this week for people who are leading kids' ministry, and uh we heard from someone who joined us as a guest how he would recommend we could speak even to a toddler about these things. And I was really struck by the way he said it. Just the way he he could lean down into the ear of a toddler and whisper in their ear, Jesus is with you. He is holding you. He has you. You are safe. And even when I walk out the door, he is still with you. And and I I j I feel totally convinced about that. In a way I think maybe once I didn't. In that if I'm honest, when I come to the issue of mental well-being, there is a there is a little voice in my head that just says this is okay, I've got I'm gonna say some things out loud.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Oh no, Ed. Here we go.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

There is a little voice in my head that says this is a sort of feminization, it's all just soft and fluffiness, and and it it it doesn't actually help. And it it's just sort of positivity and it's gentleness and it's kind, but it's not actually helping, okay? I I want to apologize for that.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Me and Gene are gonna batter you now.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

I know, I feel that. I literally feel that the number of people who are screaming, and and this this dad who was explaining this to me, he was saying he knows when he walks out the door, his toddler is afraid, and there's a tantrum coming. And I'm absolutely convinced in a way I don't think I used to be, that the gentle words of the one who loves in the ear of their child and we're Christians, we believe in the miracle. So we believe the child can't explain the things I'm saying, they can't see Jesus, but we believe God is real, and we believe Jesus is with our two-year-old. And it might be the way we speak, and it might be our arms around them. But let's not just work on the rational level. And Jean, that's what you're talking about. You're talking about you don't have to talk to me. And you can shout and you ha can sc scream and swear and throw things. But we are gonna be there, and we are gonna be the place of safety, the place of belonging, the place of trust, and that means w they can trust us to speak, and we also have the chance to offer them the greatest help we could ever give them, which is not us. And I'm sure Jean is a counselor, you must be so aware of that. You are not gonna be there tomorrow. You are not gonna be there in a year's time. You you are just a season of their life. But what you can put in place is a new way of thinking, a new way of coping. And I'm sure Jean is a Chris I I I know I don't want to complicate the world of what can a counselor say and not say, but I mean, presumably you you you were always clear it wasn't about you.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

And I think what you what you're seeing is just whispering to that toddler that they're not going to be alone. It's been consistent with that, isn't it, as parents? It's not just a one-off time that you're gonna whisper that to the toddler. It's it's repeated because we're we're living a Christian life, we're modelling our Christian our Christian faith, aren't we? So it's about that consistency that you know they might have the tantrum, and then a week later we can whisper the same thing again. Jesus still loves you, God's still here. You know, what that the um in Joshua it says um in the book of Joshua in the Old Testament, it says, um, God says, Be not afraid, be not terrified, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go. And I love that because that's that's the one to to impart to our children, isn't it? No matter what. Don't be scared, don't be terrified, but you you might be terrified, but the Lord your God, if he is your God, will be with you wherever. That's whether that's you know on holiday in the schoolyard when you're getting bullied, you're getting screamed at on the corridor by a teacher, the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

Jean, we love that verse at Faith in Kids. It's our it's our reminder as we go back to school. Uh, we like to do it with a hand, the uh I will never leave you. So our Heavenly Father has us safe in his hands. It's Joshua 1, verse 5, we're safe in his care. Um, so um, so we love that one and we love and we repeat it and we repeat it and we repeat it because it's consistently true and it's consistently what I need to hear as I say goodbye to my my worrying, stressed out child that like I would love to go with and sit alongside and help, but I have to trust my heavenly father that he has my child in his hands and loves them even more than I do. So the the truth that I offer my child is the truth that I cling on to for myself.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

Amy, in this psalm that you've helped us unpack in the session, what David does is he first of all sees the danger.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:31

But he doesn't just think about God, he speaks to God. So for instance, my heart, O God, is steadfast, my heart is steadfast. I will praise you, Lord, among the nations. I've said a bit about what you can tell the child that's true. Could you tell us, Amy, something about are there ways we could encourage our children to take it the next step that David shows us of talking to God in that moment of fear and panic?

SPEAKER_00 38:58

So to me, the key is Dave is in that terrible situation and in st and he's able to change his thinking. So he's he moves from thinking about the lions and thinking about the terrible situation to sort of this zoom out moment. So he zooms out from the things that change his circumstances to the things that doesn't change, what's still true, even though my situation's so he starts to think about God, and then he's able to remember that God is there and remember what God is like, so he asks him for help and then that connects him to feeling oh I'm gonna be okay because that's who's with me. So as parents, as we try and do that with our children, we might need to help them think this through, and we might need to help them think what does prayer look like in this situation. So prayer often we think looks like sitting neat and tidy with our hands together and saying a list. Prayer in this situation might look like in your head, so for a lot of children, we need to explain that to them. In your head, you start to talk to God about what you don't like, and then you start to talk to God about what you need him to do. Or it might look like you have to draw him a picture, or it might look like you have to put all these things in an envelope and seal it up and throw it somewhere. So for children particularly who can't articulate things, let's tell God about that. How could we tell God about that? How could we remember what God is like? What could we look at? What could we hold? What could we so that whole thing of looking at my hand, or I could look at this, or how could I look up at the sky and remember how big God is and tell him, You're big, can you help me? So there you go. Would you like to keep talking, Ed?

SPEAKER_02 40:42

Amy, this is the moment, and uh in a moment I'll come back to Gene, but this is the moment to say, Amy, this is exactly what you're saying in the family moment you've created for this series. So if you go to the Faith in Kids YouTube channel, you can look up Psalm 57, and Amy does a family moment. It's about three minutes long, it couldn't be shorter, and Amy brilliantly is helping us just have a first conversation about this and and helping a parent to talk their children through, look up at the sky, and remember this week. And Amy is doing the hard work so that as a parent we can take our first step or more in helping our children to work these things through. These are new. Have a go at them, tell us what you think of them, should we do them again? But Amy, thanks for doing those family moments. I've I've loved them a lot. Jean, it would be helpful just also if you just said a word about teenagers. Uh I've got some, and uh some of them talk a lot, some of them seem to get very angry, and some of them don't say a word. Uh and and I think the teenagers are wonderful, let me say, but there's a wide variety of ways our young people can respond in difficulties. Do you just have a word for us? Uh is there anything in particular for teenagers that that that you think might be a different or an extension of what you've already said about how we can help them to talk through difficult things?

SPEAKER_01 42:17

I do agree. I had three teenagers, teenage boys at one time, and uh it was wonderful most of the time, but you know, you never quite knew if this is going to be this moment, is gonna be a happy moment, or is this gonna be a really grumpy moment where you feel rubbish? But it's often good if you can, it would have to be when everything is fine and you can have a little chat to it to your teenager to have an agreement that if they're having a bad day or they've had a bad day, how can they tell you that they've had a bad day without saying I've had a bad day? And especially if it's a busy household, they're not going to do that. So is there an agreed a word or a phrase or something they can say to you that tells you that that they've had a rubbish day? And it's actually a bit easier than saying I've had a bad day. Something like, um, I don't know if it was sunny, you could say, I wish it was raining, or I wish it was foggy, fog's a bit more unusual. A word, a phrase, I wish I oh, I just wish I had some chocolate, I wish I had some jelly beans, anything random but agree it that you understand and they know what they're saying to you, and you understand that they've had a bad day, they need something from me. So that's something that you can convey, you know, you can carry on later. Maybe that's the night you're gonna manage to take them out for a Mac Flurry or you're gonna just have five minutes um in a different room in the bedroom or something with them. That's always a good one. Just and it it also um conveys to them I care and I want to know that you've had a bad day, and I'm here to look to try and make it better, to try and give you some some way forward through that.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

Because the alternative is to tell you a different way, and you might not have chosen that one. So They might show you that they needed your help by slamming a door or huffing off or wrecking something. So um so perhaps an agreed strategy for I would like to talk is a really helpful thing. Jean, it's been amazing to talk with you today. Um and I think there's there's a wonderful thing that happens on um the Faith in Parents podcast and for our listeners is that we suddenly feel slightly less alone and it's not just us and it's not only us that find it hard or get doors slammed in our face or worry about our kids or hear the story that they're so well behaved at school and why why are they so awful at home? And and we all we feel less alone. And what I'd love, what I'd love the Faith in Parents podcast to do would be to inspire parents in churches to actually start to have these conversations with one another because you are not on your own, and there are other parents in your churches who are going through exactly the same things as you, and there's a gene somewhere that you can probably pick their brains, who's a little bit further down the road, and all these things that God has given us to help us. So you're loving this episode. Imagine if this conversation could happen with people in real life who you could go for coffees with, who you could sit in their living room and say, I think I might be loopy because this is going on in my life, and they could talk back to you and reassure you. That is why God has given us church. Um, and so this episode is just a little taster of what church could be like. Um, Ed, uh, we've had a fab conversation. Thank you for being brave enough to open up about thinking it might all be nonsense and then deciding that it maybe isn't, and we should talk about these things. Jean, thank you for all your wisdom. Um, Jean, I would love you. Would you pray for us as parents? Would you pray for us that we would we would be able to be that place of safety for our children so we can point them to our Heavenly Father?

SPEAKER_01 45:56

Thank you, Lord, that we're able to talk about these things openly and and with your word in front of us. We do pray that you will um give us the give us guidance, that we will just lean on you and just that we be constantly reassured that nothing can separate us from the love of God, that we cannot be separated from your love. You're there for us constantly, just as we are trying to be there constantly for our children. Give us that courage, give us strength to go on through each day, give us wisdom and um help us be consistent to care and love for our children. And we just look to you for for um for wisdom and just let us just bask in that. The psalmist saying, you know, God gives us love and faithfulness. What a tremendous God we have and what tremendous assurance we're given as well. But we thank you for today, we put everything in your hands, Lord. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 46:50

Amen. The show notes are gonna be awash with links because with this series, Looking to God, Mental Wellbeing in the Psalms, we have pushed the boat out. Uh, we have done podcasts for families, we've got these podcasts for parents, we've got Sunday school sessions, and we've got Amy's Family Moments. They're my top recommendation for today. If you understand how we could go further, if you understand what we still need to do, if you understand what we haven't yet understood, just drop us an email. We get them all. We love them. Podcast at faithinkids.org. Find us in the show notes, drop us an email. Thank you so much for joining us. We're not done yet with looking to God. Thanks so much. Gene, you're the hero. I just say unpopular things. Thanks so much, Gene. Say goodbye. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye.