Leave A Light On Podcast

S3 Ep3- Melissa Harries - Beyond Good or Bad: Raising Kids in a Tech-Heavy World

• Shayne & Mick • Season 3 • Episode 3

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What if the real question isn’t “Is tech good or bad for kids?” but “How much, when, and to what end?” We sat down with Melissa Harries again, a psychologist with a sharp eye for evidence, to unpack what decades of research actually say about phones, gaming, and social media—and why the dose often makes the poison. Rather than fearmongering, we explore the markers that matter: sleep quality, school engagement, emotional regulation, and the social skills that only grow through real-world practice.

Mel breaks down how dopamine-driven design keeps kids (and adults) hooked, why “just five more minutes” rarely works, and the simple leverage most families overlook: control the Wi‑Fi, not just the device. We get practical with black-and-white household rules that avoid grey-area arguments, term-by-term contracts that adapt as kids grow, and data caps that keep mobile access useful without undermining boundaries. We also confront the tough bits—cyberbullying, misread comments, the temptation to block instead of repair, and the reality that girls often face higher social media risks around body image and mood.

This conversation looks beyond scare stories to what builds resilient, capable humans: boredom that sparks creativity, play that demands negotiation, and communities that agree on common-sense age limits so no child is the “only one” left out. Whether you’re co-parenting across two homes or just exhausted after a long day, you’ll find steps you can try tonight—devices out of bedrooms, scheduled internet off, notifications tamed—and a mindset shift from policing to coaching. If you’re ready to swap power struggles for clear structure and more real-life wins, press play and join the conversation. If this helped, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review to help others find it.

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SPEAKER_00:

Hello, welcome to Leave a Light on Podcast, a show that looks to tackle the everyday struggles in our everyday lives. It's time to shed some light on it. Leave a Light on Podcast is not a licensed mental health service. It shouldn't be substituted for professional advice or treatment. Things discussed in this podcast are general in nature and may be of a sensitive nature. If you're struggling, please seek professional help or contact Lifeline on 131114.

SPEAKER_06:

Here's your hosts. Mel, welcome back to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. Really excited to have you back on. I say back on, it's only uh been a little while. It's only been a little while. Um, but welcome and thank you for joining us. So good to have you on.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you for having me. I'm very excited about our topic today.

SPEAKER_06:

Yes, it's gonna be a good one, isn't it? It's gonna be a good one. Yeah. We we say that a lot um when it comes to the. It's always a good one. Yeah, because we have really interesting conversations with all my guests. But I think um this is gonna hit home because it is such a I want to say like interesting topic. There's no right or wrong answer. Um and there's a lot of uh you and I were talking before this, there's a lot of studies that could literally go either way to prove or disprove or enhance one or the other um when it comes to uh what we're talking about. So uh really, really interesting, and obviously it will be really interesting to get your insight um from a psychological background. I know you've um you've done a lot of research and a lot of um thought and put a lot of your time and effort into doing this. So what I love and what we've discussed about this is that I am merely here as someone who is going to ask a few questions um because I really feel that the information you're gonna give us um is something that I really want to be untainted from our perspective. Yes. Um so without further ado, um today's topic um and I'd love I I wonder if I have a drum roll actually. I think I do. I don't know. Well I can just do this.

SPEAKER_01:

That's probably the wrong one. No, that's not the wrong one. That did nothing.

SPEAKER_06:

But today's topic um is gonna be all about technology. Um and for those of you listening, technology is a very broad topic. But I really want to try and like specify it a little bit more and say technology when it comes to children.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_06:

Because I feel nowadays um our children are growing up in a generation that is so technologically advanced that sometimes we get so caught up in whether or not technology is good or bad that we kind of miss the point of raising our kids. Um and you know, like I said, it is a real big debate on this with the technology. Is it good for kids or is technology bad for kids? So, first of all, I'm gonna ask you from your perspective, tell us um from a psychological perspective, what is your view on technology and children?

SPEAKER_01:

So this is an incredibly complicated question to answer.

SPEAKER_06:

And I'm so happy if you want to break it down in terms of different.

SPEAKER_01:

So when I was thinking about this, like our question is is device use bad for mental health for children and adolescents in particular? So when we think about technology, um what we have the biggest amount of research in is phone use and online gaming. So we touched on it before we started about AI and Chat GPT, but they are such new players into the market, we don't have good information about it. So before I launch into what I think about it, I just want to be clear about what information I'm using. Because there is an overwhelming amount of information about whether or not technology, device use gaming is bad for kids. And because of the sheer volume of information, it's really hard for parents to know what to use, where, what can they trust. Um and so as a psychologist, um, I have to go to the evidence. What evidence do we use to answer that question? And we've been researching the impact of social media, of device use, of gaming on child and adolescent mental health for decades. So you mentioned a study that you've come across recently that said that it's bad. So what I'm looking at is something called a meta-analysis. So what researchers do is they gather up like studies. And so the value of that is in the number of participants that they're looking at. So studies will often look at a small group. Um, sometimes they're at a population level, which is great. And, you know, we're going to talk today, no doubt, about the Australian Bureau of Statistics and different mental illness rates. You know, they're looking at 15,000 people every time they do their mental health surveys.

SPEAKER_05:

Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

Um and so meta-analyses have the power of population levels. So often they're drawing together tens of thousands, sometimes millions of participants. And over these 20, 50, 100 different research projects, what kind of effects do we see? So it's one of the most powerful ways that we can look at the evidence is by looking at all of these surveys at once. And what do they say about device use, gaming, social media? And if I was to summarize decades of research, it comes down to the dose makes the poison.

SPEAKER_03:

That's such a good saying, as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So it's not whether or not these forms of technology are good or bad, but is the amount that that child or adolescent using it is that good or bad for that child? So that's the question. And there's lots of research that shows access to technology can have a very positive impact on mental health, but there's a tipping point where it becomes problematic. You know, social media is something that can be a healthy way to communicate and stay connected to friends. And I remember watching my stepdaughter, she would have been 15. She's snapping her group of friends. She's also got a earbud in, and she's on the phone to other friends. Like she is super connected to her social group. But she's sitting in the lounge room watching TV with us.

SPEAKER_02:

Doing so many different things online. So many different things.

SPEAKER_01:

So we have positive aspects of social media use, gaming, device use. And then there's a point at which it starts to impact on functioning. And so we're thinking about how does that use impact on educational functioning? Are they going to school? What's their headspace like at school? Are they able to learn? What about their health functioning? And sleep is the big one here. Because the more volume of time on devices, the less children, adolescents, and adults are sleeping. When you're tired, do you want to go to the gym? Do you want to play sport? Do you want to do the other things that are good for our health? So we see a snowball effect from that. We look at emotional functioning. How well can you regulate your emotions? And I'm sure every parent has been through cutting off the device use, huge tantrum explosion meltdowns. Yep. Right?

SPEAKER_06:

Oh, yeah. Well, when you say no to them getting on that device in the first place.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So we've got educational, we've got emotional, we've got health, we've got social, how does it impact on how they socialize? There's a massive difference between an online interaction and face-to-face. We know that. But it's um it has different impacts on mental health as well. We care a lot more about what's uh written in social media than when it's said face-to-face, because we get more social cues face to face and you can make sense of it. But when someone writes something slightly negative on social media, how often do you skin out? Yeah. And for you guys, you know, when you you get commentary, do you look at the positive stuff or do you look at that person who's complained about something and you go, oh, well, yeah, I mean, just on that point, I mean I think society is so quick to give a negative comment, but when it comes to a positive comment, it's a lot harder for people to give it.

SPEAKER_06:

Or it takes a lot more for them to then you know, it's so easy for us to put a negative comment or a negative splurb or on a social media post. Yes. Especially if we don't agree with it.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

But I feel like if we do agree with it, sometimes we just brush past it. And we'll go, oh yeah, that that's interesting. And we kind of move on. Like scrolling and keep scrolling. Yeah. I feel like we we tend to complain a lot more than we inspire or uplift. Yes. Or encourage.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep.

SPEAKER_06:

Which yeah, which creates a very negative headspace, like you said.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. Yeah. And what you pay attention to, you amplify in your awareness. So if you're in an environment that uh encourages or condones negative talk, like complaining, and we've all been part of workplaces that have had a whinging culture, then you pay attention to things to whinge about. So you can see that kind of environment in social media, like communities where it is very negatively focused. Um, and because there's no consequence of saying those things. Whereas if you are face to face with someone saying those things, there are some clear natural consequences of that. You know, and getting punched in the face stops you from making really awful things. That's right. But online you can say it and get away with it. Um and there's this weird impact that you can block people online. Like so you have ruptures in a relationship, but you just block them. Whereas in real life, you have ruptures with people and you have to repair.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. And you have to talk about it and conflict manage and come up with a solution and this is what we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_01:

If there's too much time spent online, kids aren't getting skills in conflict management because you just block them. Instead of learning, I've got to invest effort and have uh an anxiety-provoking conversation to bring it up, you know, I've got to acknowledge some some of my own accountability. We've got to do something to figure it out and then we get on with it.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, and so kids are doing that um for a like they're playing. You're like, you know how you see lying cubs and they're like attacking each other and they're pouncing and they're stalking each other, and you know that they're practicing adult skills on how to hunt antelope? Yes. Like we do the same thing, we apprentice kids for a really long period, you know, and so we see this effect of if too much of the volume of contact is online, then they're not developing the same social skills in the real world.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah. So here's a question for you. Do you think that a lot of the time it's easier for people to be to say something negative? And the reason why I asked this is because um the latest um stat to come out is that 44% of young Australian people have reported being either negatively or cyberbullied in some way in the last six months in Australia. That's almost one in two, if you think about it. Okay, so that's a huge statistic.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_06:

But do you think it's far easier for individuals to say these harmful or negative things because they don't see the repercussions of what they're saying? So for instance, if you and I are face to face and I say, Hey, you look terrible today, I can physically see the reaction of my comment when you are gonna react to that. Yeah, I'm gonna see you be sad. I'm gonna see it's get upset. It's gonna, I'm gonna see the repercussions of what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

On a screen, I can say these things, I don't see it, and therefore I don't learn how bad and how hurtful and harmful these things are. Yes. So if a for instance, if a kid says something horrible to another kid and that kid ends up going and committing suicide, that kid that said that thing doesn't see that the outcome of that. They hear it, but they don't actually get to feel the emotions of being like, I I had a part to play in that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_06:

How do we then as a society try and change that stigmatism or that perception of that it's easier to be negative online? It's such a big question. I Because ultimately, ultimately what I'm trying to say is we are the ones who are creating the ability for our kids to do this with technology and allowing them the time to be on these things and communicate the way they are without them actually seeing the repercussions of their actions. Yes. We are then saying that that's okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And I guess when we look at the reasoning behind the government trying to bring in a minimum age for social media use, that's part of it. Because I think what we need is a community approach to this. How we're trying to manage it is each family is trying to do their best. Yeah, do their own. You know?

SPEAKER_02:

The thing they think is right. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And there is a parent on the planet that would see those hurtful comments that a child make and go, oh, that's okay. No one would condone that.

SPEAKER_04:

No.

SPEAKER_01:

But children and adolescents are creating their own online communities. Yes. Yeah, their own spaces that have different rules to what happens in the real world. And so what can we do about it, even though the practicalities of limiting social media use to people 16 and older is very tough. I think that that's one of the things that we need to do. We need to have a united approach to what's okay and not okay. Because you've got differences in how the prefrontal cortex is actually working. These kids aren't able to think logically about stuff because their prefrontal cortex is not quite yet developed. You know, our our human brain, our thinking brain, doesn't really finish developing until 25.

SPEAKER_06:

And that varies in male and female as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Aaron Ross Powell Well, I think it varies more from person to person than between boys and girls, though boys tend to be higher risk takers than girls do. But we're seeing shifts because we're a bit more equal in how we socialize boys and girls now than when we did 20 years ago, 40 years ago, 60 years ago.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

So So what that that means, I think, how that can be applied at a local level is, you know, schools having approaches to it. You know, that people within the same community agree we're not going to allow our children onto social media until 16 or something like that. I think that there needs how do we do something about it? I think it takes like a class action kind of approach where we get the members of our community to come together and say this is our united front.

SPEAKER_06:

Okay. Well let's let's look at the stats when it comes to kids and some of the you've obviously touched on it, like emotional, physical, um, all these kind of things. Let's let's unpack that a little bit more. What are some of the you know the symptoms, if I can put it that way, of technology use when it comes to children?

SPEAKER_01:

Yep. So um I think the first indicator that we've got problems is sleep disruption. So what we find is kids are staying on their devices longer, they're going to bed later, they still have to get up for school. And if you're driving that kid to school, how often are they falling asleep in the car with you? You know that they're drowsy, they're not learning very well when they're at school because the fatigue is high. Um, and so I think it's the sleep disruption that we're gonna pick up on first. We're gonna see an increase in emotionality and angry outbursts, particularly as it relates to device use. So when we look at what's happening in the brain, when all of us use devices, adults are vulnerable to the same thing I'm gonna be talking about here. But we've got slightly better regulation skills. But still, how hard is it to put your phone down and pick up a book or, you know, do that bit of study, or you know, so the issue we have is dopamine. Dopamine is this wanting neurotransmitter. Um, and when we look at what's happening within apps, within games, it is a constant dopamine release. And so when you are denied that, emotions kind of hit the roof. And when we look at what's happening in the brain, when kids are gaming in particular, that the prefrontal cortex is not operating. It's more happening in the limbic brain, it's more emotion centers of the brain. And so when you take that away, there's like a crash, you know. And the kids in a fight or flight response. Because even if they lose that game, it still has a dopamine release because of things like um when you nearly, you nearly finished that level.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm gonna have another go. Let's go have a try again.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so it was a near miss. I nearly did it. So even though I lost, it still is like so close. You know, and so you might have a child say, I'll just finish this game and then I'll come to dinner. But because the game is built to maximize dopamine release, they nearly finished it. And so they're straight into the next one. They're not even thinking about it. There is no conscious thought around this kind of use. It is operating off instinct because it's hijacking survival mechanisms in the brain.

SPEAKER_06:

I mean, you see that all the time. How often do kids go, five more minutes, or I'll be there now?

SPEAKER_02:

Or negotiate with the five more minute rule for all the time.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

But you've got to have that there. If you don't have that um rule there or you've you set some boundary, they can just they'll never come to the dinner store. They'll never because they will just keep going. As you said, the dopamine release just keeps them from keeps them going. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Because when we look at like app designers, you know, iPhone makers, they know if they adjust a tiny little metric, if that increases or decreases engagement. So they've got billions upon billions of data points to compare to. And so if they make one tiny change and it's got like a 0.1% drop in engagement, they're like, nah, turn that off. You know? So if you think about the iterative learning of these processes, that they've been maximizing engagement, just notching it up, dialing it up for years. They know how to get our attention and to keep it.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah. And I mean, the resources that they have available to them is just mind-boggling.

SPEAKER_01:

Aaron Ross Powell Mind-boggling. Big money.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Big money.

SPEAKER_06:

I mean their their entire organization is geared, like you say, on keeping you as long as possible. Keeping you engaged. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Because every second that you're in that app is more money for them. More money. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

I mean it's nuts. So then it's nuts. So then, like you were talking about, um, where parents start to negotiate with kids. Yes. Let's unpack that a little bit more because I feel like there's a lot in that. Yeah. I won't give my opinion. I am not a de a parent yet. Um, I will be shortly. Um, but I I can't comment on it because from an outsider's perspective who doesn't have a kid, it's very easy for me to say it should just be one and done. If I say you're it's time to come off, come off. But I feel like that in real life. Yes. Yeah. It's a lot more to it. Yeah. It's in a perfect way to be a bit of a little bit simple. Yes. And then in saying that, I also think that you know a lot of parents use technology as a form just to have a break sometimes. You know, because it is it is a lot. And I I do feel in the world we live in, it's very different to how children were brought up 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. Yes. Where you had a village that raised this kid. So you weren't the sole constant one that was giving this child everything and providing. And you had parents, grandparents, aunties, uncles, they were all part of this process of raising this child. And so it wasn't just you as the lone ranger trying to like do everything and be everything for this child that had others that they could draw from. Whereas now I think we're living in a society that is very isolated. When you're in your home, it's you and your spouse potentially, and you know, between the two of you, you're trying to you're trying to raise a kid, which is not easy. It's not easy. And you know, it's most parents, if not every parent, will tell you it is incredibly challenging to be on call 24-7, you're tired, you're hungry. It's unrelenting. It's unrelenting. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

It's sometimes not rewarding. Yes. Well, that's what they say.

SPEAKER_06:

It is the most unrewarding yet rewarding thing you could ever do is raise a kid.

SPEAKER_01:

So I heard um a statement the other day which was parenting is easy. Trying to do anything else is difficult. 100% agree.

SPEAKER_06:

So a lot of parents turn to technology as that extra form of help.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

Obviously, it's a lot different to have a physical person there to help than it is to then draw to technology, like you say. How can we then combat this by saying technology can be very beneficial. It can help, it can be that bit of reprieve. Yep. Obviously, we've spoken about you know the dose equals the poison. Yes. And yeah, we can talk about everything in moderation and blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

Moderation would vary from person to person. Correct. So my moderation, mixed moderation, your moderation could be very different. Yes. How do we then find what that moderation is?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So classic psych answer, it depends. Because what's good for one child is not good for another. What's good for one family is not good for another. And so that's why I started with functioning. What are we noticing in our child that suggests it's a problematic use? Now, um, if you want to feel um very anxious about device use, go and read the book The Anxious Generation, which is incredibly catastrophic about how bad devices are for mental health. It's got big limitations, so read it with a grain of salt. However, the author talks about a play-based childhood versus a phone-based childhood. And that is a big difference between the worlds that we grew up in and the worlds that our kids are growing up in. And what we want to ensure is that kids are getting enough face-to-face time to be apprenticed as healthy adults. So they're they're spending enough time in real life with their peers, playing, creating, imagining, feeling bored. That is an incredibly important experience as a child. And children are not getting as much of that as they used to, which has nothing to do with devices, and it has everything to do with parenting culture.

SPEAKER_06:

Okay. What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, parents don't want their kids to feel uncomfortable, which is natural. But it bec I think we spoke about it last time about pathological altruism, about wanting the kids to feel good and happy all the time.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And yet we need to have experience feeling uncomfortable in order to build skills to it. So what I'm seeing often is that you've got um a full spectrum. You've got some kids who are so overcommitted in every activity that they never have time to feel bored because you know they're playing soccer and they're in piano and you know that they've got so many extracurriculars that they're just all booked up. And at the other end of the spectrum, you've got kids who come from low resource families who are kind of left to their own devices and literally using devices so that they don't feel bored. Whereas being bored because you have to go with your um mum and your sister to watch your sister play soccer, that that's really great. But mums are often going, well, what can well let's divide and conquer. Like you go with dad, you know, so you're not bored. Like actually letting your kids be bored is actually not a bad thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. It actually helps them identify be able to grow to some degree. Trevor Burrus, Jr. That's it.

SPEAKER_01:

Because what do you do when you're bored? You start to do. Yeah. You problem solve, you create. And so when when I think about kind of and it's not something I've looked into, but the impact of AI in reducing problem solving and decision making, you know, that we can actually offset that by creating opportunities in real life where kids have to figure it out.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

I mean, there's so much that I could ask. There's so many things that like you could just go around so many different trails. So many different things. Literally, while I'm while you're talking about that, I'm sitting there going, do you think as a society, parents have stopped parenting and have started to almost become friendslash child minders more than a parent?

SPEAKER_01:

In some cases, yes. Um and I don't think it's a lack of parenting, but it's overparenting. So I'm seeing an issue around doing too much for that child. And we've spoken about helicopter parenting, you know, and there's also a version lawnmower parenting where they just clear the way.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And so there's no friction points. And kids are having these kind of easy lives, but they're not learning that resilience and they're not learning the emotion regulation and the negotiation skills and problem solving. And so when parents are too involved in a child's life, they're not learning some of these skills that we should be apprenticing them in. Okay. And it's a long apprenticeship, 25 years for our brains to mature.

SPEAKER_06:

So, what would what would you say then are some of the key skills that we should be implementing in some of our kids? We talked about negotiation there. I think negotiation is a really difficult one because we obviously touched on it already before this, when we negotiate with our kids and they go five minutes more. Yep. Are we then creating a system where they challenge everything we say? Sometimes. Are we should we be saying because when it comes to work, let's just look at a work situation. There's times when you can challenge the system, and there's times when your boss says something, you just got to do it. Yep. Like there's no challenging that. It's just like, well, yeah, I need to get this project done. That's what has been expected of me, and I need to just get on and do it. Yes. How do you balance How do you balance being able to then allow negotiation versus being like, okay, this is not a negotiation?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I'm not sure I could answer that because it's such a complex question again. Because when I think about what's happening here, we've got a an issue with parenting culture where the power difference between the child and the adult is a lot flatter than it used to be. So I remember I grew up on a farm, you know, and my parents were seen to me to be like these all-powerful, like, don't mess with them people, be on your best behavior. Yeah. Or else, you know, because there was a really big gap between their power as the parents and my power as a child. And as we get older, that power difference gets smaller. And successful parental to adult child relationships navigate that where the parents are always going to be older, but then become equal parties in the relationship. Now, what we're seeing is a little bit of that flattening where kids are given more power and you know there is more negotiation with the child. And it does Does lead to both positive and negative outcomes. So what you have is children who feel valued and listened to. You know, that they help parents with tech, you know. And so they feel like they've got something to offer, they've got expertise, and then they come into the workplace with this beautiful attitude, which is I have value and should be respected. And what it can ignore is that they have no experience. But it's it's got a really nice positive outcome in how they value themselves. However, it does ignore a reality that you're working in a hierarchy. And I've got an example from a friend who had a couple of undergrad or new grads, sorry, and they were meeting the CEO for the first time. And this new grad says to the CEO in this state government organization, what are the chances of me being in your position in the next two to five years? And the CEO said, zero. It's not happening, right? Um, but part of part of it's nothing is good or bad. It's going to be helpful or unhelpful given the situation. And so giving kids a sense of agency and advocacy, amazing. It's not necessarily preparing them for working in a hierarchical organization, but not all organizations are like that.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, true. I mean, what my offset my offshoot question would be, and I think this it's very much on parenting, so it's not necessarily technology-based, but I think it can be applied then is that do you feel that today's society has very much differed from disciplinary kind of upbringing? So, like you say, when you were brought up, it was your parents were the authority figure in your family, and if you didn't do something that you were expected to do, there was repercussions for that. There were consequences. Yes. But like you say, that hierarchy or that authoritatively is kind of flattening a little bit. And so there isn't necessarily the same repercussions as it would have been. And my opinion is that it it shows in society with kids that are now, you know, there's more youth crime than there's ever been. There's more um depression when it comes to uh the youngsters in today's uh age, there's um more domestic, there's a lot more issues that have arisen from this lack of I want to say discipline for for purely lack of a different terminology. And the reason why I say I feel like this is it's drawing away from technology, I feel like they both can be hand in hand in this.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, they can be. We cannot reduce changes in mental illness at a population level down to any one factor. So I think there are contributors here, and when I think about a shift in discipline and the power differential and parenting culture, part of it is it's our generation who are softer on our kids because we had it hard. I think that um you've got the impact of more separated families and that creates challenges around discipline. Because there's two different things. There's two homes. You know, and so that's likely to be a contributing factor as well. And it's one that um I faced as I'm a stepparent, and I've there's a book I'm gonna recommend in this space for all parents. It's called The Tech Diet. It's written by an Australian psychologist, has some great tips that I'm gonna go through today. But I remember reading that book and putting it down and going, Well, I've got no chance of implementing any of that because we have the kids' alternate weekends and they're just gonna do whatever they want at their mom's.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, so when you've got two different households, you have a bit of parenting guilt from both separated um and together parents because you're not spending enough time. It's really hard to feel like you're doing any of your jobs well enough. You know, and that creates a bit more of a gentle approach to discipline and devices.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah. Okay, so well, let's look at some of these um advices that you you think would be beneficial for those listening. Yep. Um Yeah, let's dive in.

SPEAKER_01:

So it starts with controlling the internet. Wowses.

SPEAKER_06:

That's uh I love how that's the starting point.

SPEAKER_01:

That's the starting point. It's like right in there. Because if you're gonna negotiate with your child, you need to have something they want.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Access to the internet is your leverage. Oh.

SPEAKER_02:

Agree.

SPEAKER_01:

And so if you control the Wi-Fi, you control the access. And what that means is you don't have to control the device. So many of the good things about devices and gaming come from internet access. So if you control the access, you control the device. And so you don't get into this to and fro about, you know, you you're losing your mobile, and then you as the parent are keeping it in another room, and the child sneaks out and they use the mobile overnight. Like, I don't know if you've ever been through that. 100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um it's missing from its location.

SPEAKER_01:

It's missing. Kids find a way and then they lie about it. That is a really normal child thing to do. So don't don't freak out if that's happening at home and think that your child's gonna be a delinquent that's gonna fall in with the wrong like just this is what kids do. They find a way.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But if you control the Wi-Fi, it's a different story.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And so you control the Wi-Fi, and there are different apps that you can do that. When I was doing this, I had a timer that the modem was plugged into, and I controlled the um the PowerPoint from my phone. Oh, interesting. And so I had it programmed to switch off at 10 o'clock at night because that was a negotiation with the kids.

SPEAKER_06:

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

What is a reasonable time for this to happen? So I was lucky, like my stepkids are very insightful, self-aware kind, you know. And so we didn't have massive blow-ups about this stuff, but I had a conversation with one of the kids around like you are so sleepy when we go to school. Why is that? Oh, you're having trouble falling asleep, what's getting in the way? Oh, you notice that you're on devices. Would it be helpful if I turn the internet off at a certain time? So I was able to have that coaching conversation with him. He was, I think, 15 at the time.

SPEAKER_06:

I feel like a lot of adults can take that advice as well. Yes. It's not just for kids.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, turn the internet off before you go to bed. Allow your brain that time to decompress, to unwind. That's it. Um, I think that's valuable not only for children, but for adults as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. Yeah, because they're experiencing worse. We're all experiencing these problems. Um, you're unlikely to have that friendly coaching conversation with a child or an adolescent who will say to you, I if if I don't have access, I can't do my homework, I can't speak to my friends. So then it becomes a negotiation on how much internet access you get every day that includes homework and includes social media. And it becomes a black and white negotiation. Because what you don't want is to say, oh, you can have two hours of internet after school and they go, Well, I need more than that to do my homework. Well, if we group it all up, you might speak to the teachers and say, This is what I'm doing at home. How much time do you think we need? Yeah. All right. I spoke to your teachers about it. Like so there's a bit of research that might be helpful here. But what you have is what will happen is you'll agree to something, things won't get done. You know, that that person is going to still sit on social media, you know, game and then not turn in assignments. And that's where involvement in the school can be very helpful. Like this is what we're doing. Can you let me know if things aren't handed in? I mean, the way that school works now, you get notified if a student's not handing something in for some schools anyway. So things are going to be undone initially, and we have to let experience be the teacher.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So it's a negotiation and your leverage is access to Wi-Fi. But there might be you only get that access if your room is clean, if you've gone to soccer, if so having some behavioral expectations. Well, yeah. And they've got to be very clearly defined black and white pragmatic stuff. So you can't say if you have a bad attitude, you're not getting internet access. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You know?

SPEAKER_02:

So it's got to be you've unpacked the dishwasher, you've taken out the garbage, you've punked on the clothes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And then you're in bed by. Yeah. And so that's also a negotiation. So you've got to have a very good think about what is your non-negotiables and then what are you prepared to accept? You know, we want the kids actually in bed by nine. What are you going to accept? Well, like probably 10.30 is awful, but I'm going to s maybe push to that level if these other things are meant. So go to bed at 10.30. But if your grades start to slip or you're not handing things in, or you're not doing these other things, then we need to renegotiate.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Because it's not working.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And it's a temporary contract. So you might look at what do we do for the remainder of the term and then we discuss what happens on holidays. And then given how things went next term, we might have to change or readjust. Yeah. So whatever it is, it's temporary. You're not locking this adolescent into this is going to be it for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah. Okay. All right. Based on that, then I think I'm going to ask you one more question. What age do you think it is appropriate for parents to introduce something like a cell phone into the equation? It's always a hard one because we look at cell phones as two things. It's communication, very key. But it's also gaming, it's screen time, it's all these other things that are added in there. What age would you recommend would be appropriate for parents to say, I think maybe a cell phone, iPad, whatever it is that you are going to introduce as this form of um I want to say reward for lack of a better term, would be an appropriate age for kids to say, okay, you it can vary, obviously. I think some would say young, some would say older, but what for you would be like, this would be a good age.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So I think it's slightly different for phones to iPads because the way we use them is different. And when we give someone a phone, we're giving them a d device in their pocket for the rest of their life. And I think before twelve is a problem.

SPEAKER_06:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm hesitant to be any clearer about after that. Um because there's so many, it depends. But limit the data on that phone.

SPEAKER_02:

That's what I was gonna say. Yeah. You can have a phone to call mum and dad, but you also can't go on social media with it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. For a couple of reasons. That's one of them. Um but also if you're gonna control the Wi-Fi, but they've got 30 gig of data on their phone, you've got no leverage. So you wanna manage that like one to five gig for a month kind of thing. It's limited. Like if they watch too many TikToks on day one, they're done.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, and then you let experience be the teacher.

SPEAKER_02:

All right, well, you've got another 29 days of Yes, you've used all your data, you're gonna have to wait till it ref refreshes again.

SPEAKER_01:

But you can still call and text.

SPEAKER_06:

Well, I mean do we do you think kids under let's just say, because obviously other Australian governments have said 16 with no social media, do you think kids under 16 even need data then? Because in essence, all they need to do is call and text. That's not data.

SPEAKER_01:

No. What you have is an issue around social acceptance. You know, that you've got it it's not good for kids to be on social media. But if that child is the only one who's not on social media and all of their friends are, how does that change the social dynamic?

SPEAKER_02:

So that's because then they're isolated.

SPEAKER_01:

They're isolated, yeah. And there is some research to suggest a small amount of social media use is good for mental health. But there's very clear evidence that says too much is bad. And too much social media use leads to a high rate of depression, anxiety, eating disorders. You know, there's some research to suggest a link to suicide, and the younger that person is, the bigger the impact. You've got a bigger issue for girls than you do with boys when it comes to social media use. So the point at which it's problematic is lower for girls. Boys can be on social media a little bit more, and it's not as problematic because of the environments that we create on there around body image.

SPEAKER_06:

Okay. Um your recommendation around the 12, depending. You'd be very hesitant to say before twelve.

SPEAKER_01:

I'd be very hesitant. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

And that can vary. We're not saying that's a definitive age to be like your child should not be on it before twelve.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And and there's a difference between giving a child a smartphone versus an old school flip phone.

SPEAKER_02:

A 5110. Lock yet 5310. Yeah, come on. 5110.

SPEAKER_01:

Like if you want your child to be able to call you. Call my child. Slightly, yeah. Yeah, bring back Snake.

SPEAKER_06:

I love it.

SPEAKER_01:

It's so stressful.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah. Um I don't know if you've actually had the opportunity to watch that program that's come on TV called Parental Guidance.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I haven't. No.

SPEAKER_06:

Um it came on Channel 9 and it was incredibly insightful when it came to a whole lot of areas, um, whether it be different forms of parenting styles, um, like we've spoken about a few here, where it was very authoritative versus the negotiation versus soft parenting. You know, it's it's very informative to see just the array of parenting styles that are out there at the moment. Um, but it also delves into a lot of what we're talking about today. Um, you know, the studies that have gone into device use and, you know, cyberbullying stats that have come through, you know, with gaming and all these kind of things. So um I would I would very much encourage anyone who is listening to if you want to know a lot more about what we've spoken about today, it's such an insightful program to watch. And it's very, very well done. Um and they have a lot of guests that come on that are experts in in particular fields, whether it be bullying, whether it be um, you know, uh challenging parents' authorities, whether it be, you know, all these kind of things. Um but yeah, it very much I think is aligned to what we're saying here today. You know, there is no definitive answer in when is good fixed, how much is good, how much is not good. There is no definitive answer, and none of us are sitting here saying that we have the answer to say that this should be the the allocated amount and you know technology is bad or technology is good. We said this before. There is so many studies that say technology is beneficial, and there's so many studies that say technology is not.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Why why couldn't it be both bad? Yeah, yeah, that's right. Why can't it be both good and bad for us?

SPEAKER_06:

But I think the thing you said um in the beginning is is the dose measures makes the poison is key. Yes. There is 100% a marker to say too much is not healthy. Yes. And and that's with any aspect, not just technology.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

And it's finding what your marker is for your child and you. That's it. Um and maybe this is just a question to say what is that marker for you as the parent, and what is the marker for that you expect of your child. Yes. And to have that in the back of your head to say, I don't want the excessive use to be the bracket for my child. So let's bring it down to what is healthy moderation. Yes. Um, and I love the fact that we can just start a conversation because that's what we should be doing in today's day and age. Let's have conversations, you know. For someone who is going through a completely different circumstance, let's have a conversation and be like, you know, how can we help? How can we give you a different perspective? And vice versa. Give me a different perspective. Maybe I don't have everything right. Um, so from our side, Mel, thank you so much for um, you know, just bringing your expertise into an area that is very broad. Um, very broad and like you say, very hard to kind of definitely give definitively give an answer to some of those things. And I don't think we need to give definitive answers sometimes. I think it is just about sparking conversation and thought and giving different different perspective.

SPEAKER_01:

And being curious about it. Yeah. You know, that kids are experts in their lives and conversations around how is this impacting on you? You know, is it causing problems, barriers? And if children say no, it's not, and then it does, it's another conversation. But I think it's a place of curiosity that we need to come from and kind of going, well, let's have a look at it, let's test it out and let's see what happens.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, so it's so key. The one thing I just want to end on is I do think that as parents we can rob our children of creativity, like you were saying, by the simple fact of maybe we're tired. Like, even if you are tired, nothing stops you from saying go and entertain yourself.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

Not with technology. Yep. Go and do something else. Go and do something. My nieces and nephews, they have a giant box of Lego that is just there, and they like when they when they need time to just be creative or be entertained. My um my brother-in-law and the sister-in-law, they go, Go get stuck into your Lego, go build, go create, go do something. It's so good. And the stuff that they come up with is so cool. Yeah. And what happens is they might fight it in the beginning, but when they're in it, they love it. Yes. And I think that's what sometimes needs to happen is sometimes you just need to push through that initial resilient, uh like resilience from the kid, resistance, resistance, yeah. From the kid, and just be like, just go do it. For five minutes, you'll be in it and you'll enjoy it. That's it. Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

And my wife did it the other day with my boys, and my my my boy go and plays with a couple of other kids in the streets. Yeah, they actually went and made a stall up and were selling the um sparkling water out of my fridge to the people driving around. But Sarah was like, it's time to get off the device. Everyone was in our loungering plant on the device and doing something. She's like, No, go outside. And literally they came in and was like, Can we have an ESK? Can we have a table? Can you help me make a can you help me make a sign? And so they came home and the table was out the front with a three-dollar sign. I'm like, sparkling water is that it's yours. But they actually came up with that themselves, which I think was really cool. And you know, that was um you know, just something that they did because they had the social, they were on um playing devices and it was just there was enough time, and then they went out and did it. So I think it's about finding that balance.

SPEAKER_03:

The balance, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, which is fair and reasonable for everyone. And they were happy to do it. And seriously, they did it for hours.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

They did it for hours, which I don't think you see very often anymore, like kids doing you know, doing that kind of stuff. It's more they're inside hiding or doing whatever. So it's really cool to see sometimes.

SPEAKER_06:

Very parents used to nag me to come inside. Nag me. I used to be out in the street with kids, like my friends, all the time, on the bikes, playing it by playing street cricket, like all these things, you know, like building forts. Like it used to, like if you're not home by dinner, like by the time it gets dark, that's when there's a problem. I'm like, I never had a problem. It's so nuts to think that this is like the world we live in nowadays. But at the same time, like so many beneficial things. Like technology is incredible, incredible the things that you can do.

SPEAKER_02:

It's just needing to be able to the right platform for it.

SPEAKER_06:

And I use technology, so it's not like I'm sitting there saying, like, I don't. Yes. Um, you know, I use technology, I use AI, I'm a I'm a big a big promoter for those things. I think there's so many benefits in it. Yes. But like you say, it's just it's about having that moderation, the balance, the balance, yeah. Yeah. Of how much is too much and can we maybe use it less than what we are at the moment.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And that's the discussion point. Is it a problem?

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah. So thank you for inspiring us to have conversations.

SPEAKER_02:

Sparking the conversations.

SPEAKER_06:

Sparking the conversations and just, you know, giving us those thought-provoking things and then some tools as well, like you say. Um can you just what was that book that you mentioned? The Tech Diet. The Tech Diet.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. So it's uh written by an Australian psychologist who has dyslexia. So it's actually presented in a way that makes it super digestible. It's almost a page turner because he's written it in a way that he would be able to read it as someone with dyslexia.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

So it's it's great as an educational tool. It's very interesting, very pragmatic, like very practical. So fully encourage people to go and and find that.

SPEAKER_06:

The tech diet. Love it.

SPEAKER_02:

We'll put a link on our website.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah. Yeah, great. Mek will do that. Well, thank you very much for the conversation today, Mel. Um, always so good having you. And I love the fact that we uh we have access to you, like I said on the last podcast. It's very cool. Um, these conversations are going to become a regular thing um with you, and we're very excited um and thankful and grateful for that. So thank you for your time, for your advice and for your words. Um, I know I can speak on behalf of anyone listening that they they would have 100% got at least one thing out of this podcast today. Thank you. So thank you very much. Thanks for coming. Um looking forward to the next one, and we wish you well. Um I know you you said you're going away, so enjoy your time away. Um, Mick, thank you. Thanks, Shano. Appreciate it. Good to see you again. Good to see you again. Get back in the studio. Yeah, and anyone else who's listening, if you are or know of someone or have someone that you feel would be beneficial to to those listening, um, reach out to on our social medias. It's it's a different handle now. It's leave a light on for mental health. That's our handle now. Yeah. At leave a light on for mental health on Instagram. Send us a message on Instagram or go onto our website, leavalighton.com.au. That's it. I was gonna get there, sorry. And uh yeah, reach out on that as well. Um we would be so, so thrilled. Um, we love sharing people's stories and and and just yeah, creating a bit of conversation like we've done today. Mel, thank you again. Have a wonderful time away. Um, and we'll have you back when you when you're back from that trip.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_06:

Uh otherwise, everyone enjoy, have a wonderful day, stay safe, and don't forget, as always, let's leave a light on.

SPEAKER_00:

Hey, thanks for listening. We hope you managed to gain some insight from today's episode. Jump onto our socials and reach out. And until next time, wherever you are, let's leave a light on.