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Bridgeport Unmasked
Bridgeport Public Librarian Adam Cleri hosts talks & interviews on all things about Bridgeport, CT, the Park City!
Bridgeport Unmasked
Ghosts on Lindley St.?: A Debate
In November 1974, bizarre things happened on a house on Lindley St. in Bridgeport—can they be explained physically, were they the work of ghosts, or did they happen by something else entirely? This debate pits different explanations against each other in one of the Warrens' most famous paranormal investigations.
Thanks for listening to Bridgeport Unmasked. Want to make your own podcast? Beardsley Branch Library in Bridgeport has a podcast studio, open to anyone with a library card from a Connecticut city. For more information, see https://bportlibrary.org/podcast-studios/
Welcome to this episode of Bridgeport Public Library's new podcast series, Bridgeport Unmasked, where we talk about true crime, local history and all things related to the Park City. I'm librarian Adam Cleary, and joining me today at Beardsley Branch Library's podcast studio is my fellow Bridgeport librarian, Andre Massa. Stick around today to hear our thoughts on one of the most famous and confounding alleged supernatural phenomenon in the history of Bridgeport, Connecticut. Andre, thank you so much for coming out today. Yes, Thank you. Thank you, Connecticut, Andre. Thank you so much for coming out today. Yes, Thank you. Thank you, Andre. Thank you for having me. Glad to be here, Of course, of course. So, yeah, we're going to get this party on a roll pretty soon, but first I just want to make a couple shout-outs. First I want to shout-out to Mike Balao, who is helping us out. Get ready for today. Thank you very much, Mike. And yeah, Mike is our fellow librarian here at Bridgeport and I know, Andre, you did some considerable research there at the Bridgeport History Center through the library.
Speaker 2:I want to give a shout out actually to the Bridgeport History Center for all of those amazing newspaper articles they provided me. It's really a wonderful place just being able to see a snapshot of what things were like in the 70s and even the articles written in the 90s after. That was a wonderful experience and it's a great resource for the citizens of Bridgeport to have. So thank you so much again.
Speaker 1:Absolutely is, and the History Center, which I like to call the world's leading authority on Bridgeport, connecticut, is located at the downtown library, the Borough of Satan's main library, 925 Broad Street. Come on over and research all things Bridgeport. So, yeah, that's pretty awesome, andre, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2:Instead of telling you how I'm doing, I'm going to ask you a question.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Why was the cemetery so popular?
Speaker 1:Hmm, well, I think you better tell me why the cemetery was so popular there.
Speaker 2:People were dying to get in.
Speaker 1:Oh, wait a minute, where is it? Where is it? Where is it? Yeah, I found it Great. That's awesome. Yeah, good stuff. Yes, no, everybody out there you have to forgive us for that are major connoisseurs and aficionados and such words of the dad joke. So, yes, so we wanted to start off with one, and you will have to forgive us if a dad joke or two slips out there during the course of this podcast. But really, andre, how are you doing? But really, andre, how are you doing?
Speaker 2:I mean, was it too much of a commute for you to come here from the customer service desk 12 yards away from this podcast studio. Yeah, I didn't feel like coming in here, but I couldn't miss this. We're talking about ghosts, so that's always a fun time, right.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and we are in fact going to talk about Bridgeport native ghosts here today, specifically the things that happened on Lindley Street in 1974. But before we get to that, we are in the Beardsley Public Library here in Bridgeport, connecticut, and given, andre, that you spend at least a little bit of time, in this library. Tell us what's going on here Events, major doings, what's happening.
Speaker 2:So, as you know, we actually just recently opened our podcasting studios to the public. So if you're 18 years or older and have a valid library card from any library in Connecticut 18 years or older and have a valid library card from any library in Connecticut, you are free to come reserve one of our studios. After you either watch a video that we actually did in here, which thank you for that, by the way. I loved it.
Speaker 2:No, you're welcome, and or you could take one of my orientation to podcasting sessions. We do have those on. We do have those on the website, but I am having one on Saturday. This Saturday actually. Come to that. It's at 3 o'clock. Give me a call at 203-332-0025 if you're interested. Other than that, we have computer classes every Tuesday. We have a chess club for kids every Monday. By the way, come to Beardsley's birthday party this Saturday. Happy birthday to Beardsley. I've officially been open for one year now, so that's fun.
Speaker 1:Well, it seems like it's been a long time. I guess I just spend a lot of time visiting this building here, but that's pretty awesome.
Speaker 1:Beardsley Branch Library is one year old, but yeah, no. So thank you, andre, for plugging, among other things, the fact that, yes, anyone 18 years or older and with a library card from a Connecticut public library can register to use this very podcast studio that we're sitting in. And you know, there's a number of ways, as Andre said, that you can learn how to use our podcast studio and model how to make your own podcast, but one of the best ways might be to listen to a podcast. So, with no further ado, andre, I say we get into the meat of this today. What's up? Awesome, great. So, yeah, today we're going to have a little bit of a debate over the possible explanations of some wild and crazy stuff. Thank you, steve Martin. Some wild and crazy stuff that happened in a house on Lindley Street here in Bridgeport House is still there, and yeah. So, andre, I know, as you just said, you did some solid research at the History Center. Could you give us a historical background and just tell us what shenanigans were going down in November of 1974?
Speaker 2:Well before I do that, if anybody's looking for a house, the house on Lindley Street is worth right now $101,038.
Speaker 1:Okay, that is very interesting and I do believe it's currently resided in it is.
Speaker 2:You'd have to buy it from somebody. Fair enough, fair enough. But you know, there's a lot of good podcasts on what you know, the facts of what happened on Lindley Street, if you want to call them facts, right and so that's why we decided to take a different direction in this podcast where, instead of just you know, trying to represent the information that others have done an arguably better job of doing, we're going to be here to actually discuss whether they happened or not. So a brief background on what happened. The Goodens moved into that house on Lindley Street sometime in the 60s. They had a seven-year-old son. He had cerebral palsy, actually, and he did not, and it was difficult for the Goodens to take care of him, but they loved him very much, but he unfortunately passed away at the age of seven.
Speaker 2:In 1968 they started noticing things. They weren't major things, it was just maybe things being moved around that nobody could have possibly moved around. There were some episodes of maybe arithmetic banging and so forth, but nothing that actually like, freaked them out or, you know, made them know that something, something supernatural was happening. Right at some point I think it might have been 1971 the rip, the banging got louder and got more consistent and the Goodens ended up thinking well, you know, there was a lot of construction going on near St Vincent's Hospital, but there were also people that were playing pranks. That they thought right, and eventually what happened is after Halloween the banging stopped and all seemed good and lindley street until hell weekend in 1974, which is exactly when these events happened. So in November of 1974, right, the Goodens and their daughter Marcia ended up hearing the banging got louder and louder and louder and then curtains ended up falling off their racks that Friday night and the Goodens just had no idea what to do. Saturday, the TV started rotating all over the place and any time they tried to move it back it would just rotate again at a 35-degree angle. But it wasn't so bad at that point.
Speaker 2:Sunday in November 1974, which I think the exact date might have been around Thanksgiving, that's when everything kind of hit the wall. So the Goodens ended up calling in the police. It was a cry for help. Everything kind of hit the wall. So the Goodens ended up calling in the police. It was a cry for help and at that day over 40 officers or so ended up going into that building and there were all kinds of happenings. Refrigerators were described as being lifted off the ground and it was a carpeted floor, by the way, so nobody could have grabbed that refrigerator. The TV ended up actually falling on Laura Gooden's toe and ended up breaking it. There was a photo that was broken. It looked like from the inside. Sherabs ended up falling from the walls. Jerry Gooden ended up reporting from the walls. Jerry Gooden ended up reporting that knives were being thrown towards them, dishes were swirling around and slamming on the ground, and they tried to do every possible explanation. The fire department inspected the building. There was nothing wrong with the wiring, there was nothing wrong with the furnace. They even tried at points to see if maybe there was some seismic activity that was actually happening at the time. But you know, they ended up determining that it wouldn't. The tremors weren't strong enough to influence anything and even if they were, it wouldn't affect just one house. But over 40 officers did not want to go back in that house because something strange was happening in there. And that's what we're really here to debate, right, whether these things were of a supernatural cause or whether they weren't.
Speaker 2:Um, I will say some back a little background that I might have missed on before. Um after their son died when he was seven. The good ones ended up adopting um, a native from canada. Her name was marcia um. Marcia was described as not wanting to leave her tribe in Canada, but the Goodens took her anyways. And the Goodens loved her very much, but they were very overprotective of her, to the point where she wasn't even allowed to see friends unless of the Goodens were there. So Marcia was a very was a girl who was very isolated and did not have a lot of friends. She often tried to substitute maybe those with a lot of teddy bears that she carried around, and she was bullied on mercilessly at school. At one point the kids even mocked her for her darker skin as being an ape per se.
Speaker 2:And she did not have an easy time. She did not have an easy time, and what happened in 1974 is she just happened to turn 11. And that is when everything started getting. That's when, actually, that hell weekend for the good ends up happening. And one of the popular theories for why a poltergeist might appear is that poltergeists seem to a they favor woman more than men. Um and b. They seem to harvest off a lot of the negative energy, especially from an adolescent right, people that are going through puberty, people that are going through a lot in their lives, and so most people seem to think that the appearance for the poltergeist had a lot to do with a lot of the stress and maybe a lot of the emotional trauma that Marcy was experiencing that gave off this negative energy for the poltergeist to feed off of. But that's go ahead.
Speaker 1:Okay, no, that was a fantastic. That gives us exactly the background that we need. That gives us exactly the background that we need. Plus, you were able to sneak in a little bit of your ghost favoring argument there, telling us a little bit about how these alleged things exist. Fine, that's fair. I can respect somebody who likes to jump the gun a little bit. No problem, let us rock and roll in just a moment, because we want to just plug two sources that you might want to check out if you want to know even more information. Though, that was a very good summary of things.
Speaker 1:You clearly did your research in the History Center. One resource to check out is the World's Most Haunted House, is a book by William Hall that we have at the library, and if you want a copy, uh, please call us at 2 0, 3, 5, 7, 6, 7, 4 0 0, extension 500. And, uh, I will make sure that in some way or form, we have that information also in the description of this podcast. And also, there is and we're going to link the episode of Amazing Tales from On and Off Connecticut's Beaten Path, which is a podcast series, uh, run by Mike Allen, and this episode, the episode about the Lindley street hauntings is by our very own librarian, jamie Pettit. Yeah, because I just like to overuse the sound effects.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I just like to overuse the sound effects.
Speaker 1:Oh you are wonderful things. It's probably my favorite part of doing these podcasts, if we're being honest and also okay. So, andre, I'm almost ready to lock horns. Just got to give this little shout out here that the Bridgeport Public Library does not take a stance or endorse any particular interpretation of what happened on the Lindley Street house in November of 1974. These are either a combination of just objective arguments that we're going through to give you an idea of what people may be thinking about this, or also our personal opinions, and if they are our personal opinions, we'll make that known. And with that, you ready to butt heads.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's do it All right, that's fantastic.
Speaker 1:So I won the coin flip. That never happened. That never happened. We actually just talked it out like adults, rather than letting the magic of a spinning quarter determine who did what and in what order. So I am definitely going to give you the practical skeptics view of this right the whole notion that, no, no, this was just the same stuff that makes apples fall to the ground. Right. Two reasons I'm taking that on. One, I'm inclined to believe that or believe something like that, and I'll explain what I mean by something like that later on in this podcast. But two also, I would like to be able to talk to my brother and look him in the eye again after this doctorate in astrophysics. So I need to have his respect by giving you the scientific, practical argument of what happened on Lindley Street.
Speaker 1:Now, the obvious major advantage of a practical argument for what happened is that we don't need anything else except what we know we have. Right, no need for an assumption of the existence of ghosts or anything. If a physical explanation can be made, you know you don't have to just throw in something from the outside. A few points to be had when saying this was just physical stuff going on One is that not every bizarre activity is equal when it comes to how dubious or how explainable these events are.
Speaker 1:Right On one end, there were a few reports of either the cat or the swan decorations on the porch talking. Now, the problem here a couple problems here is that one nobody actually saw them talking. They thought they heard somebody say something and they thought it was. Then they attribute it to the swan or the cat because they were there but nobody actually witnessed, you know, mouth moving in such a way that these words would be coming out. And also there were, by the end of that Sunday there were a lot of people there and it would be easy to mishear speaking.
Speaker 1:So that's kind of a dubious event that happened there. However, there are some that are astounding, like yeah, what's going on there? And I think, my personal favorite I know, I know I'm sure people laugh behind my back about how much I focus on this one in particular but the fridge. The fridge is pretty. I think we can say the fridge is pretty impressive that multiple times throughout this weekend refrigerator was reported to lift inches into the air and then turn a little bit and then go down, and no pulleys or mechanisms were found.
Speaker 2:It ended up even hitting I think. I don't know if it was their neighbor Holsworth or a different officer, but it ended up actually hitting one of them in the elbow and almost injuring it too.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, no, no, you make a great point. This thing also moved around. Reportedly it moved across the carpet without leaving any traces on the carpet, which is interesting, which is interesting, you know. That kind of makes it tough to say it was some operation underneath, some sort of motorized whatever pulling it around. Okay, so, given that there were some things that are everyday, physics works right.
Speaker 1:Trying to hold with this argument, and you might be like, well, if it could have been physical or it could have been supernatural, then isn't it still up in the air? Again, I feel that if there is a physical possibility, that is a huge benefit to a physical argument, because physical arguments have the advantage that, you know, they don't need anything else other than what we know, is there? Okay? So, point being point being, a few things I want to point out, is that one, the weird events other than the knocking. The knocking had gone on for several Novembers previous to this weekend, but all the other events of note started on Friday night. The Goodens did not report this to the police or to the neighbors until Sunday around 10 am. So I'm sorry to say, and I know, I'm sure Andre is going to jump down my throat for this one and I know some listeners are going to not be happy with me here we can throw out everything that happened before Sunday at 10 am, because nobody was there to verify that this was happening. And yeah, no, I get that. I get that. You know people are going to be ticked at that because you know a lot of people are really behind the good ends, because the good ends are nice people. I'm going to I know this isn't, I know this isn't like you know, presidential candidacy debates where people you know cut each other off entirely. I'm actually going to. I'm actually going to. I'm going to stop after this, because I know Andre is dying to say something, but he is too polite to to to not cut me off here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, something you need to know about the Goodens, these people whom we're trusting their account alone to describe the majority of the time of this very bizarre weekend. Mr and Mrs Gooden and their adopted daughter decided to stay in and sleep in this house from the Friday night to Saturday morning and then Saturday night to Sunday morning, right worthy of people who said oh, tables are flipping over, knives are being flung at us and you know what we're going to do. We're going to go to bed now. Yeah, there's a ghost flying around doing crazy stuff and yeah, we're going to go to sleep. We're going to make ourselves unconscious for a few hours and, oh yeah, our child daughter. We're going to make sure she's alone in her room while we're unconscious, even though televisions and a bureau have fallen within inches of her bed. These are the types of people we have to trust. Go ahead, andre, throw at me what you will.
Speaker 2:So here's the thing about the Goodens was that even before the police ended up getting called in on Sunday at 10 am, the Goodens were terrified. They had gone to their neighbors and they had expressed even before that there was something going on in there and that they had no idea what was going on. And that they had no idea what was going on. The thing is right is that the Goodens tried to look for every possible explanation that was rational in nature before because they wanted to stay in that house. They already had that house inspected even before Hell Weekend began that November 1974. They had that wiring checked, they had the furnaces checked, all kinds of things, because they were so desperate for a rational explanation. Now they didn't want to call the police in because that was the only home that they had known. And these were, by the way, these were good people, as you mentioned. They had no reason to monetize anything as far as any of the research that I did, and you know they didn't have any financial hardships or anything right. There was no motivation to monetize the event. But they so desperately tried and tried and tried to explain everything with some kind of argument based in, physics, based in and they couldn't and so they.
Speaker 2:It's almost like a snapping point happened that Sunday morning and, by the way, you said that they were unconscious for a few hours. But William Hall actually says in his book that that Saturday into Sunday hardly anybody slept. They might have slept for maybe only two to three hours because they were so terrified right, and the events didn't really reach a tipping point until that Saturday. So that Friday night the Goodens sat down for TV, witnessed the strange things happening with the curtains and went back and they were able to get some sleep that night. But then they were so terrified Saturday that they couldn't sleep, were so terrified Saturday that they couldn't sleep. And it is. It is, I think maybe I don't want to say it may be a little bit unfair to be skeptical of the Goodens because it took them two whole days to report what happened. But I would say that at least there might have to be a degree of compassion or understanding to be given to somebody that that's the only home they know and they did not want to leave.
Speaker 1:Okay, fair enough. Yeah, I was a bit of a jerk to them, that is fair. I fully sympathize with the terror of what they're going through and the fact that, yeah, this is their house and you don't exactly just. Well, why don't you just get out or leave it? I still think they could have spent the night with a neighbor and plus, you bring up that they tried to explain things. You tell me what university they got their degree in forensics from, and then I will trust. I will trust their ability to investigate how these events were going down.
Speaker 1:Now, in addition to the fact that, okay, so, before before Sunday of at 10am, I am taking the position that there were too few people to corroborate what was going on, just a few hours later, in the afternoon of Sunday, I'd say there were too many people to corroborate what was going on. This attracted so much attention that traffic was blocked on Lindley Street, and so you might say that would be a boon, right, that would give more witnesses. Well, remember, nobody's there, just in a neutral manner. Everybody's excited, everybody really wants some supernatural event and they're like where is it? Where is it? Where is it? You know? I mean, I think you get dozens of people there and you get one person who gets really excited and is like holy smokes, did anybody else hear the decorative swan talk just now? And everybody would be like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, decorative swan, decorative swan. And I think that's where we get these dozens of reports from civilians and officers. And remember, officers are no less or more good at being eyewitness testifiers. Just because you're wearing a uniform does not mean that you are any better than me or anybody else at looking at something and reporting it. Anybody else at looking at something and reporting it.
Speaker 1:So, really, in my opinion, it comes down to that sweet spot of when the first few officers got there, between Sunday at 10 and Sunday at around a couple hours later, let's say noon-ish, before other officers showed up, other officers who were already in a state of oh, this is wild, this is something crazy, right. So confirmation bias they're going to see something and say, yeah, that's right, that's a ghost, that's a ghost right there. And remember, you can't say I don't know what causes it. Therefore, a ghost causes it, right, that's along the same lines as I don't know what that thing in the air is. Therefore it must be flown by extraterrestrials. Well, if you don't know what it is, or if you don't know what's causing the refrigerator to levitate, then you don't know that it's a ghost. You just admitted you don't know.
Speaker 1:But there is that two hours there, and so we have to do some soul searching here. Either it was some hoax that we have not figured out yet or we have to completely dismantle our model of a physics-based universe, and I'm more willing to side with the scientists there than Jerry, laura and a couple of officers who someone may have been tricking someone there. So, yeah, that is the practical based bit. And you know, andre, go ahead, um, uh, I, I do have to warn you to say whatever you want and then go on to yours. I have to warn you, um, I'm going to be a little more out for blood than you are when you make, when you make your argument in a moment. Go ahead, uh, you have the floor man.
Speaker 2:All right, so, uh, I do want to say I think you do make two really good points actually. Thank you, number one. A little background actually. I believe the exorcist came out in 1971 and I think you did mention the possibility in the argument that you know when somebody, especially when this I didn't ever watch the exorcist but I I heard it was pretty scary. So when you have this film that captured the imaginations of the public and was in the public psychology, I think you do make a good argument that people can then become even more psychologically biased towards walking in and anything that they look for could potentially be.
Speaker 2:Well, that's a ghost, because I just saw this movie not too long ago. It possibly could have affected the officers, but william hall actually states in the world's most haunted house that the two officers that were called and I believe one of them's name was Lizzeni they were told when they were called that there was just an unexpected event happening, that it wasn't anything of a haunted house, and when they came in they actually attributed what they saw as a burglary and that was the first assumption that they had. They saw as a burglary and that was the first assumption that they had. So they didn't have the psychological preconditioning that there's a ghost in here, so that has to be attributed to. You know, the poltergeist is having some fun with the good ones, right? Um, they came in there and they were trained to be professional observations within that physics-based universe and yet at some point backup got called in and over 40 trained policemen and firemen all were so terrified, right?
Speaker 2:People that are in life and death situations all the time. They've seen things that we haven't seen as librarians, but these people did not want to go back into that house. These people did not want to go back into that house and, if anything, they were actually psychologically preconditioned to be a skeptic, as you are, and they ended up leaving that place legitimately believing that something supernatural was happening. And, by the way, it is worth noting that the Goodens were given a psychological examination by Mr Beatty when he did his report on the estate. So, as far as I know, all of these people were conditioned to actually be skeptics and they ended up coming out of this situation with, call it, the heebie-jeebies, if you will, but a belief that something unexplainable by science, by physics, was happening on Lindley Street.
Speaker 1:And I would say it would just take fooling the first few of the emergency responders and the rest would be convinced to follow suit. That's the point I'm making, is that what we really want to look at is those first few officers who set the tone and the mood for everybody else who was going to come in that day. But you are correct, they are trained to be skeptics and obviously you know, the first officer who came in first presumed it was a burglary for quite some time before changing his mind on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think, listen, I think that there are things that might be a bit stretched. Like you mentioned the cat in the beginning. Right, many people attributed that to being ventriloquism, ventriloquism, um, I do not think that. I do not think that marcia had the skills or the ability to be that, you know, to be that skilled at ventriloquism to make the cat called. But potentially, yeah, if people are in a frenzied state, they might think that they heard the cat saying let me out of here. Uh, I believe it was you dirty greeks, um, and they wow, that's.
Speaker 1:That's a pretty disgusting cat. Yeah, this cat was not a happy camper.
Speaker 2:And then there were some more supernatural descriptions that Hall even mentions where the Warrens actually saw these four entities end up forming as an exorcist was happening, and I could probably concede that those might be a bit. You might argue even worse, but those could be a bit stretched explanation for what happened. But some of these things, like a refrigerator coming off the floor, a TV falling on Laura Gooden's angle right Three different police officers tried to move that TV and just insisted at staying at an angle or the things that happened with the recliners right, those ones, I think we ran out of the physics-based arguments and there were too too many people that saw it happen. And it's just something. Something had to happen there. That is hard to explain.
Speaker 1:Sure, a Broadway magician was feeling a little like he wanted to do something fun that day. Okay, I had to end it at that. Sorry, I am a sourpuss. I will defend my point and I will rip apart yours. So please start it so I could have that joy and privilege. Thank you, All right.
Speaker 2:So, number one, we'll have to talk about the hoax, right? That is the most popular explanation for what happened here. Um, marcia was described as being 11 years old and weighing 70 pounds. Um, and there, I do not think that she would have the strength just to be able to use her foot cleverly while an officer had his back turned and moved the refrigerator that is. I am about 5'2", maybe about 155 pounds. I would have a hard time moving a refrigerator and it would take me some time that somebody would be bound to notice me.
Speaker 2:The recliners were interesting because when Marcia sat in those recliners they moved or they bent in a direction that it looked unnatural and that it might break. But then one of the priests I believe it might have been Father Doyle, if I'm correct. He was a heavyset man of about 250, 260 pounds and he couldn't do anything to a recliner. And even before Father Doyle sat in that recliner, all of the officers sat in there and they couldn't make it go in the way that Marcia, a 70 pound girl, had made it go in.
Speaker 2:Even beyond that right, it is difficult to imagine that the Goodens had anything to gain from perpetuating this as a hoax. They did not seek attention because after the things happened on Lindley Street, many reporters tried to reach out to them and Jerry wanted nothing to do with them at all. That's quite the opposite behavior from somebody that wanted to be in the national spotlight for living in a haunted house. As I think I mentioned before, the Goodens had no financial hardships, nothing that would motivate them to monetize this event, and even then there were things that were reported in 1968. So what was this hoax than a five-year plan Like? Why start these things six, seven years before and then all all of a sudden exploded in 74, right?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, just as the jerk I am, I'm actually going to throw that your exact thing right back in your face. Why was the ghost so bad at scaring the good ands out, or whatever its intention was it? You know it decided November was a fun month, came around each November, knock, knock, knock, and then this weekend like I'm trying to, okay, so. So you made a great. You made some great points about. Yeah, this is kind of hard for physics alone to, you know to, to determine unless we have, you know, uh, chris Angel, uh, was, was in Bridgeport that weekend and wanted to have some fun or something.
Speaker 1:That being said, why a ghost, as the alternative explanation, not very good at whatever the heck it was trying to do? Because it doesn't seem like it was trying to do anything in particular. I mean, if it was trying to hurt the good ends, it could have done so much more easily if it was trying to scare them out. Remember, these events happen at least 15, 20, 30 minutes apart. I mean, if I wanted somebody out of a house, I would just keep throwing things and levitating things until they got out. I don't know your notion on how an intelligent being, albeit a non-living one was motivated to do this.
Speaker 2:Well, okay, so one thing about poltergeists is that they're not necessarily. This particular poltergeist, at least it seems, was not tied to the property itself. But it was actually tied, I think, or was feeding off supposedly of Marcia Gooden's negative energy. And that's why, like in my research right to explain the origin of this poltergeist, I tried to find out if there were any, maybe violent crimes that happened on Lindley Street or maybe anybody died there, right, and I couldn't find anything. So that rules out that the poltergeist in nature was attached to that property. So it wouldn't have any motivation to get the Goodens out of the house. It probably was just more focused on feeding off of Marcia and in that case it would really have no motivation to injure the Goodens so badly that it would incapacitate them, because you know they need the daughter so that it could continue to exist. Whatever it was right. But it is still worth mentioning that people did suffer some minor injuries, laura Gooden's. The TV ended up falling at Laura Gooden's foot and she couldn't walk.
Speaker 2:If that was a hoax, why do that to yourself? That seems to be a very, very extreme action to take, just to perpetuate that there is a ghost in your house for a family that already hated the attention they were getting. Um, it's just, it's just so hard to believe then that they went through all of this effort to hurt them to. You know, jerry loved his wife, so it would be mind-boggling to think that laura wanted to hurt herself just to get unwanted attention. And even before that, you know, I believe it might have been Colesworth, their neighbor, and he got hurt by that refrigerator. So why would he hurt himself, especially when the Goodens had no money to offer him to perpetuate a hoax, to offer him to perpetuate a hoax? So it's just, I'm finding the motivation for a hoax to be hard to find and hard to perpetuate.
Speaker 1:I mean, but why a ghost? Why do you believe it's not just accidents, therefore it's a ghost, and not say I keep tugging cheek, bringing up a Criss Angel style magician who is just having fun for a weekend, but I don't have anything to back that up. But the point is, why a ghost?
Speaker 2:Because there was no other way to explain it, which I guess it does sound like a bad argument, because everything has a rational explanation to it, supposedly right, but they literally went through all of the avenues. The fire department checked the house out thoroughly and checked the house out thoroughly, the construction that was happening at St Vincent's. They couldn't attribute that to being able to cause entire refrigerators to move across the floor or TVs to end up falling on people's feet. Right, you eventually reach a point where you've exhausted all rational arguments, like the Goodens did, and they were specifically stated. Their neighbors said that if they could just find one, one rational explanation, they would have stayed there.
Speaker 2:But it really it came down to the point where it would only be a supernatural explanation to explain what happened there, and at a point where you had 40 different trained men and women that didn't want to go back into that place. It's, it's hard, especially even when you had university seismologists that even ruled out that it couldn't even have been the tremors that happened that week. So I guess, in my I guess, in my opinion, it's almost like the only other thing left was the fact that it was a ghost or a poltergeist, I guess in this case, I.
Speaker 1:I have a third alternative, but before I go there as a possible, you know, marriage between the physical and the ghost explanations, did not want to take away any other points that you wanted to make on your end.
Speaker 2:still, All right, so I will give you some ammo. Fantastic, In the article that was all quiet is on Lindley Street I think that's where I picked up on this there was a report that one of the officers was actually able to interrogate Marcia and she actually confessed that everything was a hoax, that she was moving things and she was moving things when people's backs were turned. And then it was also reported that Laura Gooden herself said to Marcia I can't believe you did that. We could have made so much money off of this. So there is some ammo for you to use there.
Speaker 1:I mean I do have a response to that. I mean I mean, no, I respect the research done and I respect what you've put forth. I won't even use that against you. Two reasons. I don't think Laura said that I have, I'm very, I'm very, you know. For you know, I'm still trying to look for non ghost explanations, but I know Laura did not want to make a dime off this. I will, I will concede that much. And also, I mean I'm not going to trust a confession given by a scared six-year-old girl or whatever. You know, and that is not the conditions. You know, if the especially if the officer did the interview like right there, you know, while the television was swinging on an unseen pendulum. You know what I'm saying. So don't worry, no, neither of those. I think those are noodles that do not stick to the wall when you throw it at them, because yeah, I have thrown noodles at walls to see if they're done. It's actually a lot more fun than taste testing. So did you have anything else there?
Speaker 2:um, I will say that, like a lot of my argument as to why something supernatural, you know, happened on lindley street largely relies on the fact that it is almost impossible to cooperate, you know, to force 40 different police officers, who had their jobs on the line right, to end up being part of a hoax that could endanger their careers if they're caught lying. Um, you know, based on the fact that these were trained individuals that saw things happen, that these were people that had nothing to gain from this being a hoax, um, and the fact that there was I mean, I I'm gonna love to hear your third alternative but the fact that it seems like everything rational was thoroughly investigated and yielded no results, it kind of leaves the only argument left to be that something supernatural happened, and Marcia's background does fit the explanation for something that could attract the you know that could attract a poltergeist, if you will.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do recognize that there is a whole study of paranormal, you know, and the paranormal investigating community does have certain, you know, canon and a set of knowledge about what they do. And yeah, no, you've expressed that throughout, uh, the day today with, with poltergeist, but uh, but yeah, no, uh, cool, um, my turn yeah, okay, awesome, you want the coin flip okay, yeah, yes, that's right.
Speaker 1:The third coin flip, or three-sided coin or whatever. That is exactly. Uh, so, uh, so, yeah, so, um, we've been talking about the. It's just physics, it's just the atoms of things moving in a way. That is an anomaly. We have been talking the spirits of people past do, in fact, interact with the world that we observe every day, and that's what was going on.
Speaker 1:I'm going to throw something that frankly has its issues and I will concede the issues as they come up. But at the very least, even if you don't buy it and I don't blame you if you do I only spent three years reflecting on these, but don't worry, I won't take that too personally. Yeah, this is how I spend my free time thinking about these things and yeah, no, so at the very least, give you a notion of you don't always have to go to something like ghosts if you're convinced of not physical, and I'm going to reach out to the human mind and the powers of the human mind. The human mind is much vaster and much more powerful, in my opinion, than we give it credit for. No, I'm not going to talk about, like cheese, telekinesis or anything here. I'm not going to talk about bending spoons without using your hands to physically bend them. I'm going to talk about how I feel. You know, in the world around us the mind interacts with physical things and that one of the more unfortunate takeaways from our legacy of science is that we have separated very severely the mind from the body, and I think that's a big shame and inaccurate. So you know my thoughts on the mind and, forgive me, I have to give a little background before I can apply it to the events on Lindley Street. Forgive me, I have to give a little background before I can apply it to the events on Lindley Street.
Speaker 1:I was brought up to believe that, as many of us were, that the subconscious is this sort of disgusting cesspool of dark just not doing anything particularly constructive. And then our consciousness descends upon the subconscious. I don't even like the term subconscious because it implies it's less than the conscious my subconscious is. Over time has produced entire stories and well-made intuitions, and then my conscious just kind of looks at these inspirations and goes, yeah, that's good. So I'm really convinced that our conscious is a very, very, very small part of our mind and that the rest of our mental stuff is actually quite vast, that the rest of our mental stuff is actually quite vast, and I will tie in why that's relevant in a moment.
Speaker 1:The other bit that has to be thrown out there is why I believe that a mind exists in the first place, why we have minds, and it goes back to the creation of the first cell. So Darwinian evolution is a fantastic theory. It's one of the more successful scientific endeavors that has ever happened. One of the big jumps though again it's another matter of explanations, having a hard part to swallow is how the first cell was made. Right, there is a great I've heard this anecdotally there is a greater chance that a twister going through a junkyard will assemble a perfectly functioning truck than there is that the first cell was made. And this is I'll note the objections in a moment.
Speaker 1:I feel that the first cell was made when some physical stuff came into interaction, interacted with some orderly stuff, and they came together. So there was physical stuff and orderly stuff. There was physical stuff and orderly stuff. And you know, when the cell evolved, the physical stuff improved and the orderly stuff improved, and the physical stuff became bodies and the orderly stuff became minds.
Speaker 1:So obviously there's some refutations. You can make one. You could say well, in a universe it's possible that the twister did just make the Jeep. And the other point you could make is where did you get this orderliness from? And those are both legitimate refutations.
Speaker 1:But if you do accept those points, then what we have here, and from my point that the mind is very vast from before, what we have here are some very important points. One, the mind and the body are very interconnected, right. In fact, we can abstractly think of them as different things, but they never exist as different things, right? So not only can the mind interact whenever physical things act, it must. Every action is a physical and a mental action.
Speaker 1:However, this also brings up, because orderliness and physicalness are conceptually different things, even though in nature they can't be distinguished, it means that they have some meaningful differences and act in meaningfully different ways. And then when you combine there that orderliness which is just, you know, is one example of orderliness is the mind. The mind is vast and powerful. So you have something that acts with the physical, acts differently than the physical and is vast and powerful. And I think for those three qualities it could have been mental stuff that was causing the Lindley Street phenomenon, right. Phenomenon right, it was not per se the soul of a human being that was conscious, but just an anomaly caused by mental stuff, and there are some issues with that. But I would like to hear Andre's issues with that to begin with.
Speaker 2:So what you did is that you perfectly described the evolution of how we have a mind. All of those things are not mutually exclusive with the existence of a soul or an existence of something that must originate from another universe. You know, not another universe, but like another, another plane of existence. Right, at the end of the day, the way that the mind interacts with the physical world, right, we have ways that we can interpret the things that we witness. Right, like, if I have these unconscious biases that you know, I might have been somebody raised in a family that was very supernatural in nature. Sure, I might look at what happened at Lindley Street as being supernatural in nature. That it was caused by a ghost, I can agree to that. The issue here is that we had tons and tons and tons of different people that all came from different backgrounds, different trainings, that still saw these physical manifestations and, at the end of the day, all came to the same conclusion, right?
Speaker 1:So Trevor Burrus Jr. But I'm saying that, like the mental stuff can interact with the physical world, just like the ghosts you're talking about would interact with the physical world, if you catch my drift there, trevor Burrus.
Speaker 2:Jr In a way that that would have moved a refrigerator off the ground.
Speaker 1:Okay, and you bring up one of the points that's still an issue with my model, which is right now. I'm basically saying because this mind, this deep, powerful, enacting with physical parts, mind is powerful, it can do anything I want it to. And so, yeah, no, I cannot defend you to today why or how it would move a refrigerator. I'm just saying that for me, it's less of a jump to say the human mind, which we know exists, you know, indubitably, because we have one, you know, somehow manifested itself in the physical realm, to do this, I think that's just a little bit less of a jump than a dead person came back.
Speaker 2:I think you're correct, that wouldn't be a terrible jump if it was just limited to even just the three people in the good ends, but the fact that we're talking about there were eyewitness testimonies from all kinds of different people, you know, and they all still saw the same thing. Right, because I think we can concede that every mind is different, everybody has different personalities, everybody has different strengths and weaknesses, right, I'd?
Speaker 1:even say the experience of consciousness differs from person to person yes.
Speaker 2:So the more and more people that you have that saw the same thing, then the more and more I feel less reliable that argument makes.
Speaker 2:Because if we can concede that minds are differences and even the ways that we experience in consciousness are differences, but yet everybody still saw the same thing, then I think the argument becomes diluted in a way.
Speaker 2:Now I think what you could make, the argument you could make, was that we're all 40 people in the same room at the same time that saw the same phenomena happen. No, they weren't, and even Hall even demonstrates in his books that at a time there might have only been maybe a few handful of people in the same rooms, right, so I think maybe your argument could be more strained than there. But the fact that we have all of these different eyewitness testimonies that were coming to the same conclusion, I think it definitely at least gives weight to the argument that something more supernatural in nature happened there. Now, whether or not that might have been, like you say, the mind's way of explaining these phenomena in a way that satisfies it, or if it was something supernatural in nature, I think that at least the supernatural case becomes strengthened because more and more people experienced the same phenomena.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, actually, I thank you're very much there. I don't have a reply to that. I will reflect on the notion of if people's minds are fundamentally different and there's a situation where the mind is directly causing physical things to occur, wouldn't the presence of lots of minds actually cause things that are? Not that they missaw the same action, but to them the action was actually different. So I thank you very much for that. And yeah, no, this has been a great podcast. It's given me two things. One, it's given me something to think about, and I thank you very much for it, and the other one is I got to play with sound effects. I bet you didn't see that coming, did you? No, no, I didn't think so.
Speaker 2:Although I guess could I make a quick point, oh, of course, yeah, no.
Speaker 1:I think, okay.
Speaker 2:Actually, though, now that I've actually thought about it, I mentioned earlier that the Exorcist did come out a few years before the Goodens happened, so I did make a whole spiel about like how we all experience things differently, because we all have different, because we've all lived life and become formed by life in different ways.
Speaker 2:That might actually lead some credibility to your argument then, because then they might have had their mind interact with the physical in a way that would then, theoretically, 40 people could have seen a ghost, or attributed it to a ghost, moving furniture around of different angles that you can approach what happened at Lindley Street from, and the whole purpose of this podcast was just to present all of the facts and all the research that we've done in a way that can let you, the audience, form your own opinion as to what did happen there. You know we both have different opinions on what happened. Neither of them are wrong. The most important thing, at least from my perspective, is that we've given you all the tools that you can now do your own research and come to your own conclusion about what happened in Lindley Street, and really that's our job as librarians. That's why I enjoy my job.
Speaker 1:Yes, we gave you all that. We had that ourselves and also we did. One other really cool thing I think that we did is that we very much care about our positions but at the same time I don't know, Andre, to me that seemed like that was a pretty respectful, dignified debate and I don't know, I think certain people in this nation would do well to follow our example.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this is a good, sizable podcast. But before we head out, andre, remind the folks where they can go, please, to sign up to use this podcast studio and film their own podcast. And film their own podcast.
Speaker 2:So if you visit our website wwwbportlibraryorg, under the services option on the website there will be a section called podcast studio, and I want to give a shout out to the Beardsley branch manager, anna Naworowska. She did a wonderful job creating that page and giving you one of these sound effects.
Speaker 2:I'm going to do it again. I'm going to do it again. She did a wonderful job putting together all of the relevant information, including our policies, terms of use, and posting the first episode of this wonderful podcast on the website so you can look at there for some more information. Sometime in the future we'll have a way to directly make an online reservation for the studio, but for now, if you want to reserve our studios, you can call 203-332-0025, and I would be happy to give you more information about some of the classes you could attend, or help you find the informational video that our Adam actually made for us, and then you'll be able to reserve a studio that way. Or you can email me at amassa A-M-A-S-S-A at bridgeportpubliclibraryorg. I know it's a mouthful, trust me, but you can email me there and I'd be happy to give you some more information. But as of right now, these studios are at least this studio that we're recording in is open to the public, and we would love to see you here, create your own podcast and share your passions with the world.
Speaker 1:So absolutely fantastic, and I will make sure that you know phone numbers and email addresses and all that jazz ends up in the description, uh, so you don't have to. You know, replay the same three seconds of the podcast over and over again to get them. You have anything else for me, andre?
Speaker 2:um, why did I take the tires off my car? I don't know why did you take the tires off the car.
Speaker 1:I don't know why did you take the tires off the car?
Speaker 2:So I can drive around tirelessly.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. Yeah, I'm so happy, I'm so happy I gave you that book. It's just the gift that keeps on giving. Okay, cool. Yeah, I'm going to assume that was your last thing. And now everyone join us again next month for another episode of Bridgeport Unmasked, the podcast series about all things Bridgeport, connecticut. I'm Adam Cleary of Bridgeport Public Library. This is my fellow Bridgeport librarian, andre Massa, and we'll hope that you tune in to the next episode about the Park City.