Paugussett Clan Mother Shoran Piper

Clan Mother Shoran Piper joins Librarians Kate & Adam to share the past & present of the Paugussetts, whose ancestral lands include Bridgeport & areas of Fairfield County.

Transcript

Uncovering the Pagossets

Speaker 1 0:00

Hello everyone out there and welcome to another episode of Bridgeport. Unmasked, I'm Librarian Adam, and today we are recording from the Beardsley Branch Library in Bridgeport, connecticut. Today we have on Shoren Piper, clan mother of the Pagossets, and fellow librarian Kate Moserticke. We will be talking today about all things about the Pagossets, so thank you very much both of of you for coming on. I want to start by introducing Shorin, the clan mother of the Vagossets, and I feel the best way to do that is to quote a couple of lines that she wrote in her book Red Road.

Speaker 1 0:58

I walk the path of my ancestors daily and with my ancestors by my side. Daily and with my ancestors by my side, my father, chief Big Eagle, told me over and over again and that if you don't follow the American Indian ways of life, it'll come back to haunt you Reclaiming our old ancestral home. He said with his voice raised I'm not like the old Indians, refusing to camp aka reservations rather than face up to the white man. And he said I'll die and go to hell right here. You better believe it. I am my father's daughter and I'm 100 times worse. Shorin, thank you very much for coming out to talk to us today. So that was from your book Red Road. Would you mind telling us a bit about what you wrote there and what that is?

Speaker 2 1:43

telling us a bit about what you wrote there and what that is Sure, should I give a quick introduction really quickly Amazing, absolutely yes, please, sego. My name is Sharan Wapatukwe Piper. I am the clan mother tribal head leader of Golden Hill, pugwasa Tribe, medicine woman and spiritualist, author of the book Red Road, spokesperson on many indigenous rights, including missing or indigenous women and people, and also spokesperson for Two-Spirit Genders and on the council and committee there's actually all the five tribes for teaching the school curriculum to all of the school history teachers, which was the you know of Connecticut mandated for the schools to start teaching it. Pre-contact, first contact from kindergarten all the way up to college university age. I am my father Chief Big Eagle Piper's successor. I was due to past few years, undisclosed reasons, the DP, indian Affairs, the state of Connecticut attorneys and lawyers had found documents that my dad was appointing me and naming me since 2003. Over six different times they had those and now I have copies of those and I only knew of him doing it in 2008. But, yeah, so so and you know my book, the Red Rose Afro-Indigenous book.

Speaker 2 3:04

Speaking of quote, my dad has been through probably hell and back already, but you know, and he fought, you know blood, sweat and tears and he was, you know, fierce and you know, powerful and fearless. You know he was never in fear of nobody and he really said what he really thought and what he really felt and the things that you know he's walked through and been through, like I said, he's probably been ready to, you know, held him back on everything he's tried to do, everything he's fought for for his people, his family, you know his tribe and then just for American Indians in general. So that is kind of you know, my strength and energy. You know he had a temper, you know. So everybody knew basically how that man was. He was considered a legend. So you know I learned from the best and most of my genes, from my dad.

Speaker 1 4:01

Fantastic. Well, I hope you speak with the same honesty and energy today. I'm sure you will. Just one question before I introduce, kate. Where could viewers get a copy of Red Road?

Speaker 2 4:15

I have some. They could contact me or they can go on Amazon or conjureselfcom and look for publications.

Speaker 1 4:26

Cool. Thank you very much. And, kate, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast to help this happen. It's going to be a good one. I know it is because today is a very special day. Very happy birthday to you. Thank you and thank you for spending part of it here in Beardsley Branch at the podcast studio.

Speaker 3 4:44

I consider it a little bit of a birthday present, because I do love this stuff.

Speaker 1 4:48

Indeed, you do, and please tell us more specifically about why you love this stuff, in particular, what you're studying right now.

Speaker 3 4:55

Yeah, so I'm a librarian, so I got my MLIS but I specialize in archives and now I am getting my master's in indigenous history from the University of Nebraska, kearney. So and I actually I will cop to it. I am a direct descendant of colonizers and but it is continuing. You know the legacy that some of them it was, that some of them actually were friends with natives and advocated for the local native community and trying to continue that legacy in a modern way. But I'd love to be an archivist for Indigenous communities. That's my goal.

Speaker 1 5:29

Fantastic. Well, this is a step towards that here in its own regards. So I'm actually going to take a backseat at this podcast. I'm going to let Kate and Shorin duke it out and tell us all about all the things that they're going to talk about. So I'll join back in towards the end, but let's have a great podcast All right.

Speaker 3 5:48

So, sharon, I'll just start off pretty basic actually. Tell us about the Pugussets, about your history, your culture. You guys are the local native peoples here in Fairfield County.

Speaker 2 5:59

Yes yes, we have actually two reservations in Connecticut. I'm born and raised and still reside on the oldest continuing reservation, so 6059. That's in Trumbull and then probably about hours, so minutes, depending on which way. You take my nephew, the war chief Kicking Bear Piper. He resides on the Colchester Reservation with his family.

Speaker 3 6:18

Oh, okay, so you guys have two different groups on each reservation?

Speaker 2 6:21

Yeah, born and raised. He's still residing there with his family, and you know, grandchildren as well now. So, yeah, that's awesome, yeah, so yeah, my brother was the war chief and I appointed my nephew after his father.

Speaker 3 6:35

So Well that actually. That brings a really into the next point. So you're the clan mother, so explain to us what does that mean? And then you mentioned war chief. What's the difference?

Speaker 2 6:45

So the clanmother is tribal head leader. You will see in different tribes whether you have a clanmother or it's just a chief or chiefess, or you have a subchief, council chief. You'll see a difference. You can have both. There's a clanmother, there's a chief, or then there's just a clanaremother and no chief, or there's just a chief or chieftess and no claremother. So my dad was a successor after my grandmother. My grandmother was a claremother, chief and chieftess. She went by three different ways. She was also a medicine woman yes, a spiritualist. She appointed my father and I was named successor.

Speaker 2 7:22

So I am like the overseer tribal head leader getting the future generations ready, keeping the history and tribe and doings and goings alive. We have a good amount of tribal family members who are very active. We have 200 on the tribal roll. We have women who are still giving birth to children every year, which is fantastic for our next seven generations. So it's kind of like you know, and the clan mothers have like the last say. So they have the last signature, they have the last word. Everybody would go to converse with the clan mother on everything and anything. I can appoint a chief, I can dehorn a chief. So dehorn in language is kind of like firing, terminating.

Speaker 3 8:06

I love that term, though dehorn. Dehorn, that's a cool term.

Speaker 2 8:12

But yeah. So it's like long story, short, kind of like being the president, you know.

Speaker 3 8:16

Yeah, I mean and it's so fascinating because I think in American mainstream culture we do consider, we go right to chief you know, but you know, as Red Road reveals, the chief is not really the truly highest level of power of you know authority in the tribe the clan mother is.

Speaker 2 8:33

Their position is higher than the chief and men still converse, yeah, and chiefs still converse with the clan mothers. You know there's many clan mothers worldwide. We kind of have like an HR Everybody does, all tribes do. It's so cool. I call it like that.

Speaker 3 8:48

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 8:48

But it's higher, you know.

Speaker 3 8:49

And you talk about in here, that, like clan mothers, you kind of have a secret communication between you guys, which is so cool. Honestly, these are things that I mean. That's why I said it was so revelatory to just read this book, because we don't consider those things. Those things aren't really talked about. Again, maybe it's coming from the western culture, but we look at, like you know, the male chiefs. We don't hear much about the clan mothers, and so it's fascinating to hear and you know, me and adam have talked about this and it almost seems like a series of checks and balances on power and authority that are a little absent in western society and culture.

Speaker 2 9:23

Um, so it's just fascinating again yeah, our tribe has many of books and, uh, some of the books that my father has written and spoken when he was becoming chief. There was chiefs that came from all over. He knew a majority of them, but then there were some that he didn't know. Yeah, um, and they come. You know, just like with the clan mothers, they all come and you know you're being approved of their ceremony, you know, and it's kind of like your HR again.

Speaker 3 9:48

Yeah, you know, it's just interesting to see how like power and authority are kind of given.

Speaker 2 9:54

Yeah, the women are the backbone, you know. They hold all the healing.

Speaker 3 9:57

It makes sense.

Speaker 2 9:58

And you know the wisdom and the hope and the medicines and so on and so forth, and I guess, guess.

Speaker 3 10:04

To me it's just so radically different than the Western tradition that I grew up in. I mean, as you say, women are like the spiritual ones, which I totally dig personally. But it's just fascinating. Again, it's so we don't think about this in mainstream culture. Again, we think about the chiefs. When we watch movies about Indians, there's the male chief. But, the clan mother isn't always talked about.

Speaker 2 10:26

So I'm glad we're talking about this and there's a lot of female chiefs right now. You'd be surprised. A lot of women are kind of in lead and have been for a very long time.

Speaker 3 10:38

And you know, in one of my classes, not for Nothing, we read a book and it was talking about the use of women in diplomacy and stuff and in the Texas borderlands they fulfilled a very important position.

Speaker 2 10:49

Very important role. They hold it all. They hold it all together.

Speaker 3 10:51

And I guess that's what I'm realizing is a very big difference again between kind of the traditional gender roles in Western society is that you make a very good point in here that they're different, they are not subservient to each other. One is not less than the other, and I think that's a really important part, right, um, and I again, it's very different than where we're coming from with gender roles and you know the western society, although things are changing, of course, right, right, but it's still it's and, like we said, checks and checks and balances, much like the us government tries to do in their way. And, yeah, so this is a lot of tribes all over the US generally function in this way, with this kind of structure.

Speaker 2 11:31

Yeah, you know, there is one tribe in Connecticut, I won't give the name. Oh yeah yeah, for privacy reasons and friendship and relative reasons. There is no clan mother. There is no chief. There is no chieftess. There's no clan mother. There is no chief. There is no chiefess. There's no like sub-chief, like council chief or like that they have like a chairman.

Speaker 3 11:50

Yeah, okay, so there's a little variation too, among things Vice chair and chairman yeah, I mean it is important to know also, you are two separate communities, two separate people doing things, which, again, I think is a very important point, because I think all too much we think of Indians as one conglomerate group when there's so much diversity within you guys. So, thank you for that. No, that's so fascinating. Again, I don't think we talk about the clan mothers enough, but it's so interesting. So, like you said, the clan mother you are, you know, there to help guide your people and everything. Um, speak to me about children in the community, cause you said some really interesting things in red road about how you view children um and what your role is in the children's lives and stuff getting them ready and prepared.

Preserving Native Culture and Land

Speaker 2 12:43

You know to make sure they have a nice, clean, clear, open road and staying on that road, and you know being able to not have to suffer. You know, like our past generations have and to have that protection as well, to know their heritage, their identity. You know where they come from. What does this mean? What does that mean? The cooking? You know going out to socials, going out to powwows, going out to ceremonies. What different herbs mean this and that? And the medicines that you can utilize, foods and survival skills. Mainly, you know we've survived this whole time thanks to our ancestors. You know we're here because of them.

Speaker 2 13:22

Yeah, thanks to our ancestors. You know we're here because of them, yeah, so trying to make sure that the youth is prepared to take on what we've all took on when it's our time.

Speaker 3 13:32

Yeah, no, I mean you spoke. I mean I love the fact that you mentioned that there's a code of ethics also. Yeah, that we that you teach children, and I just thought that was so powerful.

Speaker 2 13:40

Yeah, all tribes follow that. Yeah, you know, know the code of ethics, you know we kind of have our own ten commandments, basically, um, you know the respect word and you know I mean that's the thing is.

Speaker 3 13:50

It was very geared towards. I mean I got very much the golden rule out of it that you treat others how we want to be treated. I mean, that's a good universal ethical rule, right? Yeah, um no, I just thought that was so fun, like the way that, like children are closer to spirituality and stuff and it's fascinating because not for nothing I actually grew up with that idea that children are close.

Speaker 3 14:11

You see that quite a bit, I feel like all over the place and it's just so interesting. So you say you were like you spot children early too with certain like gifts and stuff.

Speaker 2 14:21

Yeah, they're looked upon at a young age. You know they're groomed at a young age. But that's how you'll know who carries that medicine bundle or who is going to be that war chief or who is going to know how to sew those regalias together, who's a good bead worker. You'll see their talents and their personalities and the things and you know the certain type of dances they might do or the medicine that they're going to carry and the spiritual gifts.

Speaker 3 14:45

So yeah, and you try to like foster. That that's you know. It's so fascinating, I think, of children, like you know, inhabiting these roles and showing these signs so early. And I feel like, again, we don't necessarily in our system we talk about letting kids figure it out and go on their own and we kind of wait until we're 18 to kind of get there. But no, it was just so fascinating and so, like you know, speaking of kids, what are some of the challenges that, like you guys, are facing now? I mean, you said you have a nice, your birth rate is still going and everything, but what other challenges are you still working on that? You think, your future?

Speaker 2 15:19

generations. I think it's the cost of living is not what it used to be. Everybody's struggling and just the way the world is right now, it's a really scary place to live in. It's not like it used to be, so it's kind of just.

Speaker 3 15:36

I think we can all agree on that one.

Speaker 2 15:37

You're kind of just teaching things that you might have taught or been taught from your ancestors and your past generations. Teaching them that, but also teaching them the non-indigenous. You know the other side.

Speaker 3 15:50

Yeah, like yes, both worlds.

Speaker 2 15:52

Yeah, they need to know, you know.

Speaker 3 15:55

What is it Two-eyed seeing Like that kind of concept.

Speaker 2 15:59

Yeah, you want them to know what they're able to utilize and what they have and know and what their protection is, and you know what paths they're going to take. So you kind of worry about that their safety.

Speaker 3 16:13

You know their living situation and you know their identity and I think that's something a lot of people can identify with is worrying about future generations.

Speaker 2 16:19

You just want them to be able to be able to connect to the land and the earth you know and Mother Earth, and maintain their you know, your native culture.

Speaker 3 16:27

Yeah, no, that's, I think, a really good point, and I think a lot of people would understand that, because I don't think they're the only, I don't think a lot of communities are dealing with that right now quite frankly. I mean, let's say I do have a, I'm going to switch gears a little bit. I'm thinking I want to switch gears a little bit. Thank you, I'm looking at my questions.

Speaker 2 16:44

That's okay, that's fine.

Speaker 3 16:46

Okay, so you're in Golden Hill, right Golden Hill. But originally Golden Hill Reservation was located in downtown Bridgeport correct 80 acres.

Speaker 3 16:54

yeah, yes, 80 acres and now you guys have a quarter acre in Trumbull Race, which was. It was awesome to read your father's book, a Quarter Acre of Heartache. I almost consider Red Road almost like a follow-up to A Quarter Acre of Heartache because they're talking about very much the same ideas. So it was really fascinating to read that and then go on to your words and how you kind of continued a lot of those ideas. But I mean, how does it feel, knowing that that's a main commercial center and that was your people's lands and like burials, are there still and stuff?

Speaker 2 17:28

it's a very long, hard fight. Yeah, you know, our past generations, fathers, grandfathers, uncles, everybody's, our ancestors, everybody's fought for that and still fighting for that. You know, um, giving prayers, giving thanks for our ancestors, know who may be under a lot of that rubble, who may be under a lot of that foundation, you know, letting them know that our side has tried, you know, numerous times which. I know, they know this, I'm sure they see this, but to at least acknowledge, you know I guess that was my next question the tribe is like acknowledging, bringing the tribe in, you know, basically giving it back. Really, I know that's not going to happen overnight, you know one, two, three.

Speaker 2 18:12

I know we've been trying to really, you know just bringing the tribe you know up to date, up to speed, having a good relationship, you know, with the tribe and the government politicians you know and working together. But yeah, that's just a lot of things is wishful thinking. Yeah, a lot of prayers and hoping things do turn around. And come back to the tribe.

Speaker 3 18:33

Yeah, God, I can imagine that I mean a lot of wishful. Yeah, I mean not for nothing, A lot of.

Speaker 2 18:38

that is like Rocky Hill that they gave you, just can't use it, you know can't use it. Oh yeah you know, trying to tell us we could give this. Yeah, it's just. You know, we have overseers and land being stolen and taken.

Speaker 3 18:49

Well, as you said, now you only have a quarter acre in Trumbull.

Speaker 2 18:52

Yeah, and they think that because we were making brooms and baskets that we made. You know good living off that, that we didn't need our land.

Speaker 3 19:05

And you know it's a lot in those document, history paperwork. There's a lot. Yes, I can tell you from my own classes. There's a lot there, I mean for all over the United States. I think we, you know, again, in mainstream culture, we think a lot about the Western natives, but I mean it's over here too and you guys have been dealing with it longer, 200 years longer. So I guess yeah, that was my question is, I mean, as you know, non-native people who live in the area, what can we do to kind of you know, respect that and honor that history?

Speaker 2 19:31

I always tell a lot of people to. It's also a word of mouth and just bringing awareness, whether you have social media, whether you have your own blog or so on and so forth, talking to your friends and family, letting people know whose area it is, whose land it is. You know that once you know, golden Hope of Guasset lived here. And listen to all these names of the streets, the wording that's all American, indian.

Speaker 2 19:53

There's so many native words that are still existing, just for people to keep bringing that awareness and speaking that and talking about it, keeping our name out there and alive in what area?

Speaker 3 20:04

And you know, not for nothing. It's funny because I always go back to in school. I was told, you know, they really talked like they really minimized the Native impact here, but then I would go home and I'd have my father going no, what are they talking about? This is where they live, they love. Look at this place, it's great here. Like, why would you not want to live here? I mean, and like I've said, he was friends with people in the Pequot so I got that education very early.

Speaker 3 20:30

But no, I mean not for nothing. I have been trying to have you guys at the Bridgeport Library, so you guys are present because that is historically your land. But so we're going to continue doing that and try to bring you guys. But you're right, I mean it's good to know how we can, as non-natives, advocate, because I think for a lot of non-native people we want to be allies, we want to advocate, but we also don't want to be guilty of appropriating anything or going too far. So it's good to hear this from you and to hear that, which actually that brings me to my next question. Say, what would you have to say to people who are a little different, non-native, but who maybe don't you use the word jive in your book. Don't jive with Christian Judeo tradition. But you know, find much more identification in with native spiritual beliefs. Is there anything, any advice or anything you have to say to them?

Respecting Indigenous Religion and Land

Speaker 2 21:22

Yeah, and I've just been like this all my life. I used to always tell my mother I don't like when people would preach to me or try to put the religion and culture on me. Everybody should be free to choose what path of religion and culture they want to take. But respect everybody's, understand everybody's. You know we go into the Nipi, which is Sweat Lodge. That's our church. What do you mean? That's your church. Well, that's your church, you know. Well, you can bring this Bible in your church. No, we cannot bring that Bible in our church, you know. So you know we want people to understand. There is a line there to understand and to respect that. You know we have our ancestors that died for our sons. You know our grandmothers prayed for us to be in existence and for our protection down here. A mutual respect, yeah, I just, you know I don't want everyone to think, oh, you can't just keep blaming this religion and that religion. But are you not seeing the facts? What your religion did?

Speaker 3 22:23

Yeah.

Speaker 2 22:24

To a lot of children and women and you know, elderly there's, you know, rape and abuse and murder and kidnapping. Yeah, you know, I mean every day they're finding all the evidence and remains everywhere at churches.

Speaker 3 22:39

Residential schools and all that. Yeah. So I mean, well, that's a big new. I know that's a big one, because I know in Canada they found that mass grave. Yeah. So I mean, well, that's a big new. I know that's a big one, because I know in Canada they found that mass grave. Yeah, they've been going to all the states. Yes, these days I know they have been, Do we? Have any residential schools in Connecticut. Did we?

Speaker 2 22:52

have some. Yeah, I know there was a report that went out that they were speaking with some of them and looking, and so they're going around and they're doing that.

Speaker 3 23:03

But so we're okay. So that's. So were the Pugussets? Did they go to those mission schools? Were anybody from the Pugussets sent there? No, there's different schools.

Speaker 2 23:12

I went to a transitional house and it was out of state. I know a lot of friends and family relatives whose aunts, mothers and, you know, grandmothers who were part of different residentials, whose aunts mothers and grandmothers who were part of different residentials. My father went to a school and I don't know if you read it in a lot of the documents or in his book, but he had gone to a school here in Bridgeport and he was tired of all the abuse.

Speaker 3 23:35

And then he ran right.

Speaker 2 23:36

Yeah, he ran away, you know, because back then, you know, you had the nuns, you had the ruler. Oh God.

Speaker 3 23:41

I have heard it from my mother in the 70s yeah With the nuts. I can only imagine.

Speaker 2 23:45

So, yeah, he couldn't do it anymore. I don't blame him necessarily, but it's incredible to hear him.

Speaker 3 23:51

He's like, how old was he when he ran away? And he was pretty young, right. Yeah, 9, 10 years old, I can't even imagine I would not have been able to handle myself in the 90s. But I mean it ended up working out really well for him.

Speaker 2 24:04

He ended up meeting that family, the Levine family and the funny thing is the Levine family still live in Maine and my dad passed away in 2008. And they stayed in touch. I love that. And they sent a letter letting us know that when he turned 18 and 19, you know, and he left. He was grown now.

Speaker 2 24:22

He wanted to you know, do other things and tribe and you know his mom, things like that. They left his room the exact same way that. It was still the same exact way. That is so sweet. Up until the day he passed away. They never touched it Because they thought that you never know if he ever had to come back, even if he was a grown man, if any of his children you know grandchildren, and they stayed in touch with him.

Speaker 3 24:45

They like fully adopted him into the family.

Speaker 2 24:46

Yeah, they stayed in touch with my grandmother, his mom. You know they communicated. She was okay with him, you know living there.

Speaker 3 24:51

And this was a non-native family right. Yes, and I think that's important to know is like it wasn't always.

Speaker 2 24:58

Yeah, because my dad traveled through the woods to stay off from Connecticut to Maine. He, you know, traveled through the woods to stay off.

Speaker 3 25:04

Yeah, I can't imagine nine or ten in the woods.

Speaker 2 25:06

Oh, he survived. It's incredible, and he was a very smart man for not graduating high school grammar school little school. None of that Very smart.

Speaker 3 25:15

Very smart man, and that doesn't really indicate intelligence all the time.

Speaker 2 25:19

Oh yeah, he knew everything and anything.

Speaker 3 25:21

It's just so incredible to think of a 10-year-old boy going through the woods to Maine.

Speaker 2 25:25

Yeah.

Speaker 3 25:26

Not to Maine, which is not even just down the street.

Speaker 2 25:29

That's a good few days, yeah he was spiritually gifted so he knew to trust that family.

Speaker 1 25:34

That's awesome.

Speaker 2 25:35

I mean, I found him and took him in, and that's just you know, and they could have been in trouble as well. You're hiding a minor at a very young age for a while. Yeah, I was going to say especially like these days. Yeah, oh yeah, it's a little different, but yeah different, but uh, yeah, no, and it's interesting.

Speaker 3 25:52

I think it's also interesting to point out that I mean, when you get to individual relationships like that, it's like, um, the differences start to melt away. I mean, in one of my books and they're talking about living in allotment and stuff, and the books I read for my class and how they did end up being quite good friends with a lot of their white non-native neighbors they, just once you get to know people, yeah, we, yeah, I mean we've had friends.

Speaker 2 26:13

we call them we always call them supporters of Golden Hill. But they develop friendships, yeah, and they're not American Indian and you know they support the tribe very well and you develop wonderful friendships and you know they're friends with other tribes. I love that. You know they're always there to assist and bring awareness and to support in any way they can.

Speaker 3 26:32

Yeah, on, like whatever you need on the other side.

Speaker 2 26:33

You know that's always a wonderful, great thing to have those friendships and relationships that people do support any and every American Indian tribe, you know, not just one particular one, you know.

Speaker 3 26:44

I think I come from a family like that.

Speaker 2 26:45

Yeah, I mean even my stepfather.

Speaker 3 26:48

I mean, he has traveled extensively in the Southwest and he has traveled extensively in the Southwest and he has visited many tribes down there and collected some art and stuff and he's very much into it also. So I was really excited when he could come and meet you last week.

Speaker 2 27:02

Yeah, that was really nice.

Speaker 3 27:06

So your father, like you said, he knew who to trust and stuff and he was spiritual. So I guess what would you have to say to non-Native Americans about approaching the land, what we can do?

Speaker 2 27:17

Well, just giving for Mother Earth you know that's our mother, you know for the earth and the land, and just giving thanks to her for providing, blessing the land, you know, respecting the land, Don't destroy it more than it is. Mother Earth is hurting. We're all suffering. You know this global warming, this climate change, it's a little too late. That's kind of like someone telling you you have stage four cancer. You have a leak.

Speaker 3 27:43

It's a little too late.

Speaker 2 27:44

You're trying, you know, to make things better with the global warming and climate change, but it's really a little too late. In the meantime, you know, just giving prayers of thanks and respect Mother Earth and the land that is. You know, our mother. She's hurting, she needs medicine.

Speaker 3 27:59

She needs healing. You know we could turn Thanksgiving into an actual Thanksgiving for the earth. I mean, you know she's providing, you know.

Speaker 2 28:04

and then you've got our trees that provide the water and oxygen. They're providing, the firewood to keep the warmth. They're providing, you know, the medicines, and you just gotta give thanks every day and pray for their healing. You know, pray for this global warming and climate change to get better. I know it's too late, but you just gotta give thanks and just kind of keep praying for them.

Environmental Responsibility and Tribal Advocacy

Speaker 3 28:23

Not for nothing. They're also Respect that earth and land. I will say also, they're probably. I mean, do some research about native grasses. My brother, he has gotten very into that, so he planted wildflowers and clover all over our yard, which got us a few comments from the neighbors, but he held strong.

Speaker 2 28:38

I like the no-mow, look everywhere. I think that's really pretty.

Speaker 1 28:42

Well that's the thing we got a really mixed response.

Speaker 3 28:45

You'd hear some people go by and be like, oh, they need to mow their lawn.

Speaker 2 28:48

Yeah, but it's so pretty Then you get other people come by and be like, wow, look at all the flowers.

Speaker 3 28:52

Yeah, especially the little babies, they love it.

Speaker 2 28:54

Yeah, you know we do the best that we can Me and my sons. We'll go to certain areas of our land mostly, especially like Indian Wells and Shelton Garbage bags and I've done it too with friends.

Speaker 3 29:09

We'll bring garbage bags and gloves and just clean up. Yeah, I mean, it's not a bad idea, that's our ancestral land.

Speaker 2 29:14

That's our ancestral place. We can't leave that like that.

Speaker 3 29:17

It's not a bad idea. I mean we could all do that, yeah, so we go, we clean it up. You know, I do a little quick. Like you said, it's very basic. That's simple. You can be Native, non-native, you can be non-American.

Speaker 2 29:32

And I understand like you and five other people could be walking down the street and those four people just dumped a whole garbage can full of garbage on the street. There's really nothing you can do about it. Yeah, you know, besides picking it up, cleaning it up. But for you personally, show, you know, creator, show Mother Earth that you did not do that You're not going to drop your trash on the carpet.

Speaker 3 29:52

You know, on the land I'm going to be honest, I actually I was in the. I think it was Yellowstone and I saw someone in Yellowstone throw trash and I went into the bushes and grabbed it because I didn't want to yell at them, because I didn't want to be that person. But I went and grabbed it because I didn't want to be that person. But I went and grabbed it Because, again, I was like what? I was speechless Of all places, Yellowstone, yeah, of all places, Yellowstone.

Speaker 2 30:17

I was like come on and Aspen Stone too from tribes.

Speaker 3 30:21

That's a whole other topic, for another day, but although, to be fair, we do have them. So go enjoy those national parks.

Speaker 2 30:30

Beautiful place.

Speaker 3 30:31

They are beautiful and, honestly, when you walk on those places, you can feel, you can feel that there is something special there that is American.

Speaker 2 30:38

Indian land.

Speaker 3 30:40

The Badlands. Like I told you, we were talking about once the Badlands. You feel it there Honestly. You feel that there is something there. Can't put my finger on it, on what it is, but there is something there. I also think it's fascinating that with things like that, they all call it the Badlands Different languages the French, the English.

Speaker 3 30:58

God, it's the natives that were living there. It's just so fascinating. But you're right, I mean these spaces. I mean to me it kind of calls all around the world we have all these different religious traditions, but there are certain places that seem to hold spirituality, regardless of what it is All right so going forward. You know you talk. We've been talking a lot about the future. What is one of?

Speaker 2 31:24

your big goals for your community that right now or in the Well, I, I want all of my you know family, tribal members, you know members, to thrive, to survive, to live a happy, healthy, blessed, protected life, especially for their children and grandchildren. Like I said, our next from you. You meet all seven criteria, plus more. They give you that preliminary probation 30, 90 days, 69, you know just to find something. They ask for it. You provide it. So they continue to ask for stuff. You provide it. But then they want you to run into a snag where they're like, okay, no, this isn't going to work, this is what we need. It's not matching up blah, blah, blah, this is what we need. It's not matching up blah, blah, blah and then it's, you know, removed from you, just like with the other state tribes here in connecticut.

Speaker 2 32:16

Yeah, that being revoked and taken away on the most worst day, on columbus day. You know what?

Speaker 3 32:19

oh my gosh, I didn't even know that was on columbus day you know so, as many politicians.

Challenges of Federal Recognition Process

Speaker 2 32:26

you know, we have a lot of politicians that are on our side, and then there's a lot of politicians who are against us. So you have one who has even said in court, under oath, that the Golden Hill Pugwasa tribe was a real, legitimate tribe, which was Richard Blumenthal. You have the Connecticut Mayor newspaper that you can find online, going back to like 2018, all when Obama was in office and they ended up revoking and putting a ban, which was only for the state of Connecticut tribes.

Speaker 3 32:55

I didn't know that. I didn't know about this rule, yeah.

Speaker 2 32:58

That if you apply for federal recognition, you could no longer apply again. They put that under the BIA, the Bureau of Indian Affairs. So which? That's where they get you, because everybody has around the whole entire United States.

Speaker 3 33:11

Applied for federal.

Speaker 2 33:12

Right To give somebody else a chance. Now the thing with that is again that was only supposed to be for Connecticut tribes. Yeah, they ended up putting that.

Speaker 3 33:20

Yeah, you had mentioned that at one point Around.

Speaker 2 33:22

Yes, and kind of all their tribes around the world who are state, trying to be federal. Then you have some that aren't even state and they're trying be federal. Then you have some that aren't even state and they're trying. They got caught in our crossfire and they're fighting as well as the state tribes here in Connecticut. You know we're all in support of each other.

Speaker 3 33:38

We're all helping each other.

Speaker 2 33:40

We're all backing each other up. We all have our own separate tribal. You know attorneys, but again they did this past recent like summertime. They started in summer and you know fall or September, maybe you know there was a deadline where they opened it up for public comment. So anybody and everybody can write a public comment of support online email. They had a listening session. Our tribal chairwoman was on it, our lawyer, there was a few people, but again it was mixed tribes on there. But you had a listening session of public comments. So there's two people at the Bureau of Indian Affairs who are working on this and our lawyers are on top of it. Tribal attorneys and we're checking the sites. Reporters that I have spoken to. They keep calling and asking BIA for a comment.

Speaker 3 34:29

I was going to say a comment. If people are interested, you can go and there's a bunch of news stories about what's going on.

Speaker 2 34:34

It's online, the news stories, the up-to-dates and going on. The Bureau of Indian Affairs, which a lot of that information and the dates are very old. I'm talking years and years when my father was still alive. They haven't really updated anything on there or put any new things of dates, but so, we're still fighting, you know, because that federal recognition is our identity you know yes. Yeah, and you know it's our medical and our housing and our healthcare and schooling. And our language. Yeah, there's a lot you know with that.

Speaker 3 35:07

I guess to non-native people. We're like what is the point of federal? Yeah, everybody thinks it's casino and land claims.

Speaker 2 35:12

Let's just stop with that. There's a lot more to that. It's preserving our culture, our nature, our identity. There's a lot with that. Sovereignty yes, there's a whole lot with that. They need to give everybody a chance. Listen to the tribe. Don't take one side and run with it. Stop just listening to one side that is putting fear in you, misusing their political office to put fear into the residents of Connecticut About what would happen.

Speaker 2 35:44

Why don't you get the information straight from the horse's mouth? Why don't you listen to both sides? Ask a million questions. We're going to answer it. There's plenty of information to show that we are not lying. We are telling the truth. That's online. It's all public document. You know our documents too, on BAA. Anybody can get on there and read. It's all a public forum. You can read everything there. So there is things in there. So you know you're listening to one side and they shouldn't be.

Speaker 3 36:14

Get all the information from both sides and then make a determination and you're not wrong. Then there's the other, not for nothing. There are the logistical issues of you know, a lot of native cultures were oral and they just don't have the written records before a certain point. So then we just have all that too, it's just a whole bunch of issues going on.

Speaker 2 36:36

Correct. Well, we wish you luck on that one and we'll have to keep an eye on that. Yeah, it's a lot of our tape.

Speaker 3 36:44

I would just say a lot of document paper. Oh, bureaucracy, what are you going to do?

Speaker 2 36:47

I mean, and it's spread out everywhere. It's spread out in, you know, the state capital, in Connecticut. It's spread out in Washington DC at Bureau of Indian Affairs, you know, and then we have ours on backup disc because, you know, paperwork is very old very fragile, very discolored.

Speaker 3 37:01

Archive, man Right, we have places where it's archived and locked up you know key and broad, oh, and you have a digital physical everything, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 37:09

And it's spread out to specific people and places where you wouldn't even know or think of like and people that you don't know, yeah, tribal people, you know that wouldn't know because it's under lock and key for safekeeping Fair. You know, because a lot of that documentation you never want to lose, you never want to let go of, you don't want. You know floods, water, you know everything gets ruined.

Speaker 3 37:32

You can't buy that. You have it in five different places.

Speaker 2 37:36

Yes, yes, you've got to have a backup, you know, especially for those future generations.

Speaker 3 37:39

Especially when your status and a lot of your future hinges so crucially on those documents. I mean, yeah, we necessarily, don't necessarily think about that, because it's not for nothing I lose my copy of whatever. I can go down to town hall and get it. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 37:54

Well, our tribal attorneys too. I mean just boxes and boxes.

Speaker 3 37:58

Oh, I can imagine.

Speaker 2 37:59

And they're out of state. We have one, you know, in state you know, and then we have one in Washington and one in Florida. So I mean it's boxes and boxes and one, and then he visits, like in New Jersey. So there's a couple other people that he yeah communes and talks with, that work with us.

Speaker 3 38:14

So it's yeah, I mean they're far away places too, because I have a box for my own family, I can imagine the amount of boxes.

Speaker 2 38:20

Oh, boxes Probably fill this room. I mean, they have a lot of it, a lot of it.

Speaker 3 38:26

Although part of me think. I mean I don't think. Like you said, there's a lot of things. We hear federal recognition as non-natives and we have certain connotations, but we don't even realize the process and how difficult it is and the challenges, especially in a place like Bridgeport where a lot of your documentary evidence colonized and lost not for nothing, I mean, but you have been able to maintain certain.

Speaker 2 38:54

Correct, correct. But I also do think that the famous words and I learned this from my dad even for military personnel, no matter what office or business or place you call vital records, it doesn't matter. Oh, we lost it in the fire, everything is a fire.

Speaker 1 39:11

Everything is a fire.

Speaker 2 39:12

Everything is a fire. That's all you hear. I think a lot of it is there. You have it. You don't want to give up the documents or you just threw it out. You got rid of it because it's nothing, it's nobody. You just throw the tribe again back on the back burner and you forget about it Not for nothing.

Speaker 3 39:28

We do lose archival documents sometimes and they'll get lost in the collection. You kind of got to refine them. That does happen. But you're right, it happens a lot.

Speaker 2 39:37

Yeah, that famous word Every time I talk to other people that have said oh, I've called this place that place and you know, even if it has nothing to do with us, but you hear it around. It's like the famous word and my dad used to say it all the time yeah, even when he needed something and it's his military paper, oh, it was lost in a fire. Yeah, and I know there.

Speaker 3 39:55

Actually like, I guess, some group of military files that were lost in a fire and it happened to be my ancestor's files lost in a fire.

Speaker 1 40:04

What are you going to do?

Speaker 3 40:06

Yeah, sometimes it does happen and now I hope that you know. Maybe it's just between some pages and we just got to find it. That's the other difficulty with archives. That does happen, that is known to happen. Yeah, they get lost, but I think that's. The fun part about archives, though, is when you rediscover that Mm-hmm that would be. You know, that'd be like oh dreams.

Speaker 2 40:25

Dreams. That's why, you know, I learned a lot from my father to write everything down, yes, to make copies of everything, put everything in binders, and you know, I just my father was the same way. I'm glad because it's all the same thing. Yeah, everybody just has a copy of it. So you know it's.

Speaker 3 40:43

My father did the same thing about our own family history. He made sure everybody had it. He has the original but everybody has a copy, yeah.

Speaker 2 40:49

Yeah, we have a few tribal family members in Maine that have binders of things, so you just got to know.

Speaker 3 40:55

My difficulty now is finding out who has what.

Speaker 2 41:02

That's what.

Speaker 3 41:04

I'm trying to put together. It'll be hard to find on my end.

Speaker 2 41:07

So no, but I mean I don't know everybody on mine, so it's going to be hard to find.

Speaker 3 41:09

Yeah, but I mean, yeah, you're right, though I mean thinking about, like my face, it doesn't even have this, it doesn't have this need for this documentary evidence, and we still have boxes and boxes. You're right, the amount of documents must be immense.

Speaker 2 41:24

Oh my gosh, I never even thought about that, yeah and a lot of them could just get ruined in general of moisture, Just moisture, If you don't preserve paperwork from like 1800s. That's a big thing so even if there's no floods, you know there's nothing. No spilling juice, or you know pudding or something on it. Food-wise, it's the actual atmosphere. Yeah, mold things like that, so you still have to preserve.

Speaker 3 41:48

That is one of the biggest problems in archives is HVAC systems.

Speaker 2 41:51

Yes, you still have to preserve and then lighting too. I learned a lot over the years. Museum, and you know history teachers and historical societies. Lighting can actually damage a piece of paper.

Speaker 3 42:03

So I started out as a chemistry major and going into archives the amount of chemistry that actually became applicable to archives, you're right. The light, the temperature I mean, I think it's the Beinecke, they have it. So the marble is so thin the UV doesn't come through, which is so awesome.

Speaker 2 42:17

Yeah, so there's a lot that goes into that.

Speaker 3 42:21

It's very nuanced.

Speaker 2 42:22

Copy machine and USB. There's a lot that goes into that.

Speaker 3 42:25

Exactly, yeah. And well, different file formats, too aren't always equal. I mean, have you guys had that happen? Have you guys lost any records due to, like, file obsolescence Mold, oh, okay. Mold, yeah, okay fair. And anything with an old tape're gonna like that stuff has to be at the tape.

Speaker 2 42:41

Yeah, mold that stuff is not that and and very expensive to do a lot of this changeover and copy and sending and you're not wrong and it's you know.

Speaker 2 42:50

Archives are a good thing too very familiar with that but no, my, I mean again, even in my family it's very helpful and easy when some of our people's traveled and, yeah, rental, so it's it's lot easier. But it does get very costly. You know it's it's not easy. So you know, for just people listening, you know, oh, that's kind of easy, Just go to library. It's 15 cents a page. No, it's a lot of work. It's very costly it is. And switching, you know, digital, because every technology is upgraded, you know.

Speaker 3 43:21

And it's so fast VHS and yeah, so I mean, I remember as a kid we went through all the kind of family VHSs and my dad got this really handy machine that was a DVD recorder and VHS, so as he played the VHS. It would record onto DVD.

Speaker 1 43:33

Oh cool.

Speaker 3 43:34

I think we still have it technically. But no, because that was his concern. He didn't want to lose any of those and he knew that the magnetic tape was already kind of going out. No, you're right, it took a while. He did that for ages.

Speaker 2 43:48

And that's just with our own videos. It's long. It's a lot of work.

Speaker 3 43:51

A lot.

Speaker 2 43:52

I mean, that's why some people make whole jobs out of it.

Speaker 3 43:55

Oh, okay. So how can we, like non-natives in general, non-natives also advocate for, like you know, native people in general all over the US? I mean, we have a lot of stereotypes, a lot of misconceptions. What would be your advice for people who are non-native, to kind of help with that?

Speaker 2 44:12

I do see a lot of non-natives, especially the youth, college, high school age, basically I see a lot of non-natives who are in big, huge support of indigenous peoples. They already are advocating whatever way they can to support and help out. I love that. And then you know, I think it's 2024. Nothing ever changes.

Building Understanding and Collaboration Within Communities

Speaker 2 44:34

So, you still get the same as it was when we were in school. Yeah, you still have non-natives. Whether they are children, teenagers, adults, it doesn't really matter. Age, grade school, it doesn't really matter. You're still going to run into someone who's going to disapprove of you, yeah, who is going to be rude and disrespectful.

Speaker 3 44:53

It's always, there's always someone right.

Speaker 2 44:54

Will argue with you. Politics yeah, you know when it comes down to that. So I'm very thankful for those who are in support and I'm thankful for those who want to learn, who want to start bringing awareness and want to. You know.

Speaker 3 45:08

It's awesome that the teenagers are in on it, because you kind of think a teenager is a little punk and you remember that yeah.

Speaker 2 45:13

I've seen it a lot.

Speaker 3 45:15

So we're improving, we're getting better.

Speaker 2 45:17

Yeah, because I think they take the time to listen Fair and they ask questions and they were probably taught that in school and I've been bouncing around speaking to so many teachers and schools.

Speaker 3 45:27

And have you been in the Bridgeport schools though? Yeah, yeah, awesome, because I did see in your father's book that he used to run an educational program at the. Bridgeport schools. What was that? I just didn't know. I know he was.

Speaker 2 45:38

PTA ABCD. Well, I know it's not called that anymore, it's called Alliance or something like that. People are telling me it's not called ABCD anymore, it's just called Alliance. He, yeah, he went around traveling to schools and speaking history and about the tribe and about himself. He started in prisons.

Speaker 2 46:03

Oh, okay, wow, so he was a lot of American Indians in prison, so he started a prison circle, which I don't know if many of the prisons are still going and doing it. I know a lot of people were appointed after that and they still kept it going for so long, until our medicine man Tom Flanders passed away. He was one of the chaplains in the prison, so he continued on for my dad.

Speaker 3 46:23

I have no idea. Wow, that's incredible. Yeah, so interesting.

Speaker 2 46:26

So the schools? Yes, still going around Myself and other tribal members for years, years, we just bounce around Whatever schools reach out to us. Awesome, that's what I like and depending on the age and grade, you know performance. That's what I like to do and, depending on the age and grade, you know performance either stancing or strumming. Storytelling.

Speaker 3 46:45

Topics you're talking about.

Speaker 2 46:46

Presentation slideshow.

Speaker 3 46:49

Yeah, it all depends on questions.

Speaker 2 46:49

I'm sure you can talk with the high school kids a little bit different Craft making, so it all depends what they request.

Speaker 3 46:53

Yeah, yes, which your crafts are usually awesome by the way.

Speaker 2 46:57

Thank you.

Speaker 3 46:58

Everyone had a lot of very good things to say about your bees, by the way.

Speaker 2 47:01

Thank you.

Speaker 3 47:02

Actually, one of my coworkers complained about not being able to do it. Oh no, but it's really good to hear though the younger generation. I mean you know you like to think that things improve after a while. Right, have you been working with the Freeman Center? Is there a connection there? Because I know you guys' history is extremely intertwined with Little Liberia and everything, and you speak about that in Red Road too.

Speaker 2 47:25

Yes, so Mary and Eliza Freeman, relatives, cousins, Fascinating women Right that I have seen and gone, due to undisclosed things, of other American Indians, who was at an opening somewhere here in Bridgeport and some things were not mentioned or said. Long story short, they are African American and American Indian, okay, but for whatever reason they keep being left out of that. They are American Indian. Golden Hill, boguasset.

Speaker 3 48:04

Again, I can't.

Speaker 2 48:05

So there was a little thing there and I went through all my documents. Yeah, and you speak to it and hear it again. Paperwork and files and records 1800s.

Speaker 3 48:13

Yeah, All that Freeman and Sherman, and I've heard of Charles Burleson he also mentions it and stuff and how they work.

Speaker 2 48:18

It's all backed up, but I tried to put myself out there, so I have other members of the tribe. Yeah, my nephews and you know other people on the board and council. I've spoken with a lot of them, met with a lot of them and part of the center.

Speaker 3 48:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 48:37

So there is a communication and talk, yes, and no, I'm probably not going to come on that any further.

Speaker 3 48:42

Fair enough, many people listening, but about I mean, like you say in your book.

Speaker 2 48:46

Don't disclose too much, fair enough but as you say, privacy act, yeah, kind of like the HIPAA law on our end. Fair, fair, fair, no-transcript. They should be honored and respected and told. Not only are they African-American, they're American Indian and they are from Golden Hill, bogota Tribe.

Speaker 3 49:14

And they're women.

Speaker 2 49:15

Yes, I just you know. I do the best that I can to try and help the best that I can.

Speaker 3 49:20

You know, if they need my help the Freeman Center, if they want to reach out to the tribe, we're more than welcome to work with them together and help out in any way we can, and I think that's really important for people to I mean again non-natives to know people who, like me, are white, non-native Like again, the communities are very intertwined, like it's not Not quite so separate black and white. Yeah, like a lot of overlap in between. Like you say, there's a lot of similarities in spirituality and traditional spiritualities. Yes, which again was very revelatory for me because I think in our culture we see the African American and the Native communities as very separate.

Speaker 2 49:56

Yeah, but in history they are not. They're our ancestors, they're my ancestors and I give thanks and gratitude to them.

Speaker 3 50:02

Yeah, and I mean, if you look at the seminal and everything, they're all mixed, it's just different. Like we have to change how we're thinking about this history. We have to change our perception, our perspective. Yeah, wrap our heads around it.

Speaker 2 50:13

Yeah.

Speaker 3 50:14

That it isn't like it's all just so intertwined Right Impacts each other. But yeah, no, that's. Thank you for answering that question yeah, you're welcome.

Speaker 1 50:26

It had occurred to me that I didn't ask about that because I didn't honestly just want to know. And do either of you have anything else?

Speaker 3 50:29

Yes, is there anything else that you want to say? Add this is your platform.

Speaker 2 50:33

No, I thank you, I thank the listeners and you know. Many blessings to all of you and may you all walk in peace and beauty. Thank you.

Speaker 1 50:42

Thank you very much, shorin, and thank you to everybody out here who has been listening to this episode of Bridgeport Unmasked. We have been clan mother Shorin, piper, librarians Kate and Adam. The book is Red Road and this is Bridgeport Public Library's podcast. Join us for another episode real soon and please tell your friends, family, mortal enemies and random strangers that you run into all about this podcast. Have a great day all of you.