Psychedelic Therapy: Psilocybin, Ketamine & A Mental Health Journey

In this episode of the Catalyst for Healing Podcast, a trusted mental health podcast, Dr. Justin Yanuck and Maria Lloyd sit down with L.J. Lumpkin, LMFT, to explore psychedelic therapy psilocybin ketamine a mental health journey. With over a decade of experience in psychotherapy, L.J. shares his perspective on mental health support, mindfulness, psychology, and the vital role of holding space in the healing process. The conversation covers the therapeutic use of psilocybin therapy and ketamine treatment, including ketamine infusion therapy, ketamine infusions, and ketamine therapy for depression. They explore how ketamine for depression and psilocybin influence neural pathways, and why integration work is essential in long-term healing. From therapy to ketamine infusion and beyond, this episode highlights how psychedelic therapy is reshaping how to treat depression and supporting personal transformation through a truly holistic mental health journey.

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Transcript

Dr Yanuck (00:00.8)
Hello and welcome. My name is Dr. Yannick. This is Catalyst for Healing. Today we're joined as always by wonderful therapist, Maria Lloyd. And I'm really excited for today's guests. We have a real visionary therapist who's blending traditional and psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. His name is L.J. Lumkin.

LJ is a licensed marriage and family therapist. He's the founder of Nomad Healing Practices. He's got over a decade of mental health experience. LJ integrates traditional therapy with innovative techniques like psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, as well as ketamine assisted psychotherapy. He's got a holistic approach that addresses the mind, the body, and the spirit.

As an adjunct professor at Pepperdine, he shares his expertise in mindfulness and multicultural informed care. In 2024, he published Climbing Out of the Box, which supports BIPOC mental health and clinician growth. LJ is passionate about veteran wellness and advocates for greater awareness and resources in their healing. LJ, welcome to the podcast. We're so excited to have you today and we can't wait to dive in a little bit deeper and get to learn about what makes you, you. So let's start there.

What makes you you?

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (04:18.222)
Yeah, thank you so much for that introduction. And I feel honored to be here. What makes me me is, you know, I'm I'm a mutt by nature. And when I say that, it's like I come from a lot of different cultures and a very diverse background. You know, a lot of my family's in military as well as law enforcement, but then also on the other side of law. And what I saw for a lot of years was, you know,

people need support and need to have space to be able to talk and integrate what their knowledge is of the world. that curiosity of why people do what they do is something that's always drawn me in. And so like being able to bring in my Hispanic culture and my Black culture to the therapy room and to integrate practices that really support like, you the full expression of self in our clinical world, which we all have studied and learned and

learning how to integrate that in a way that's authentic. I've always enjoyed being able to travel into different communities and different intersections of life and just really get to understand where people are coming from, but then also be able to just be with people, learn, experience. And I think that's what's really helped me in my career and has pushed me forward into kind of this psychedelic realm as we're exploring the Renaissance, but also

recognizing all the old parts of self, the old roots that we come from. That's really what I guess makes me me in that way is that like, I like to lean into the shadow side, which usually people are trying to avoid.

Maria Lloyd (06:01.446)
Yeah. LJ, I had the privilege of meeting you, you know, at a CAP event where we were getting together. And the one other thing that Justin missed in the intro is that you were an NCAA athlete. And so we had talked about the uniqueness of that in addition to like, love, I mean, again, we need more people with different cultures talking about the differences because we don't really understand how important it is.

for people to connect with their cultural heritage and how much that brings into their belief systems and identity. But this other piece of the being an athlete was also something you and I talked about that you have that's really unique in your work. How do you feel like that added in? Yeah, or how does that add in to what makes you you?

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (06:46.284)
Yeah, thank you.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (06:52.566)
Yeah, I mean, being an athlete my whole life, when I had to retire from that career at 22, you know, that, that, understanding of going through like the identity crisis at an early age and recognizing that, know, you can put so much love, passion, pain, sweat and tears into something. And then that's only one chapter of your life. As I get to work with other athletes, I think that's something that has helped me empathize with them.

but then also recognize this piece of our culture where we do get very one dimensional in who we are and how we identify. And that's usually where we get into these stuck points. Having to navigate that for myself, it was my journeys with psychedelics that really allowed me to recognize like, what is my next passion or what was something that I already...

I was already ingrained in, I still, needed to expand on it. think that was my journey through psychology and recognizing that even though I'm retired from that sport, I'm still an athlete. That's still a part of me. And finding other ways to satisfy that competitive edge, but then also not destroying myself in the process, which that's something that I know a lot of athletes struggle with as they're facing retirement or those injuries that could keep them from pursuing that passion.

Dr Yanuck (08:16.844)
All right, I don't want to get too philosophical too quick, but I am curious, you mentioned identity and I'm curious what your thoughts are on your experience as a therapist, as a psychedelic assisted psychotherapist and how you help clients frame the importance or unimportance of identity as they're going through that process and maybe your own experience in that space.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (08:42.626)
Yeah, no, that's a great question. You know, just like the therapists and me always say, it depends, you know, like how, like where they're at on that journey, but really recognizing if that identity is still true to who they are now. Like a lot of times I think, you know, I'll find clients or they find me where they're really struggling with that identity that they've held for so long, whether it's the, being the most resilient person or it's, you know, being the champion or, you know, being

Dr Yanuck (08:48.845)
Yeah.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (09:11.468)
being the person that everybody blames, whatever that that part of self is to be able to honor it, but then also recognize what is that new part that's starting to emerge. I think that shift happens, you know, when I'm, when I'm working with some clients with, you know, psychedelics or just regular talk therapy, there may be the knowing that it's, it's that time that they have to go through that piece. And then for others, it may be that

This is something that's going to come at a later time. And I think that that's important for us as facilitators of the space to be able to be patient with that process rather than forcing it, which I have seen. I'm sure you all have seen some clinicians or some facilitators where when they see it, they see the truth, they want to pull it out of a person rather than allowing it to emerge. And that's kind of my style is to meet the person where they're at, allow it to form rather than forcing it.

Maria Lloyd (10:07.958)
I love that because that's, think we're holding space and allowing them to heal themselves at their own pace. And whenever there's like a pushing or pressure, it disrupts process.

Dr Yanuck (10:20.226)
Yeah, the hardest thing I, not the hardest, I mean, of many things in this space that I face is balancing people who are used to quick fixes and probably years of maybe like negative effects with the medical world and kind of this nocebo bias that nothing works for me. And then they come to a space like you have or we have,

And the second they get a signal that this isn't working for them, that's all they need to kind of spiral the wrong way. And then to try and emphasize the importance of patients through this process, I think in my experience sometimes can make it feel like maybe I'm just, I'm trying to push something on them that's not working. And I'm curious, how do you navigate that patient who's like, I've been suffering for years and years and years, like I can't wait another day.

How do you discuss that?

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (11:21.23)
Yeah, I love those patients. I love those clients because they, right? And it really does pull a challenge out of your, because I mean, for all of us that are in these spaces, we may have done that work and that reflection where we've gotten to see the other side and to really have to hold it for someone that's not seeing that, or they've been so roped into that, like you said, that identity of this will never work. I am the worst case scenario, right? For me, I,

Dr Yanuck (11:23.98)
It's a lot of them, yeah.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (11:51.072)
I always like lean into the curiosity because that storyline, that narrative of that person, didn't, that wasn't always the case. It started somewhere. And so usually when I'm hearing them talk like that, even in the disappointment and you know, that, that truly is that managing the expectations when people do get to this point, when they do explore these, these types of treatments, being able to put it out there that, Hey, it might not be today. You're feeling better.

it might be weeks, months, even a year where all of a sudden your partner talks to you in a way that would have offset you, but all of a sudden you're actually able to engage. And so being able to speak to those really nuanced details of like, what will you notice if things change? Cause I do find that where a lot of clients where they've just been feeling bad for so long, they have no idea what feeling good feels like anymore. They can't even wrap their head around that idea.

Dr Yanuck (12:28.972)
Mm-hmm.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (12:47.426)
So like spending the time to explore that with them. And then also knowing that like, you know, if you make it today, then you can make it another day. Like that, just that saying of, can't make it another day, you know, being able to kind of battle with that during that time of the brain elasticity, when there are new neural pathways forming. I think that the conversation can shift, even if it has been a conversation they've had with several family members or other clinicians.

you know, just reminding the client that at the, know, it could be a couple months later or a couple of weeks later. And that piece of like, you know, just them not getting as mad or not getting frustrated with their partner or being able to communicate in a different way can be that subtle change. And that's usually the pieces that that aren't looked at. And I think that's why, you know, integration work is so important and so valuable to all of this work with psychedelics and ketamine.

Dr Yanuck (17:47.881)
Mm-hmm.

Maria Lloyd (17:48.042)
Yeah,

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (18:10.498)
assisted therapies that usually gets forgotten because within that first couple days or weeks, it's like the blissfulness or the difference is there but those habits and rituals usually get stuck, right? If we don't explore them.

Yeah. So for, for patients and clients that, you know, they feel like they are that person that are stuck that they can't be fixed. I think it's, it is leaning into that curiosity around what they're experiencing and the disappointment around like expectations. even if they're in those medicine sessions and they're coming out of it or they're in it still, and they're not seeing that fix, like being able to explore that with them is something that's really of value.

that narrative really becomes hardwired into the identity. if we're able to explore with them with curiosity, that might give them that part of leaning into it, being curious, why do I think this, where did that come from, and really being able to look at some of those root causes of the narrative versus this is just who I am.

Dr Yanuck (20:10.834)
Hmm.

Maria Lloyd (20:11.766)
Yeah. Well, LJ, I know when you and I talked, you had shared, and we love authenticity on this podcast. You and I shared a little bit about your personal experience with ketamine, using it yourself, and also some of your work with clients. But let's just start there. I want to hear a little bit, because especially around some of the cultural components that

you were able to integrate or I thought were really amazing. So just share like what some of maybe one of your best experiences with ketamine with our audience, if open to doing that.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (20:42.69)
Yeah, yeah.

Totally. And I think it's important to talk about it from the place of it. We've went through the medicine before we're sharing with others, right, or holding that space. My first experience within a clinical setting was really valuable, where the psychiatrist that was holding the space for us, it was within a group of other therapists.

Just being able to go through that process to find the person I wanted to work with and really talk about like my fears or anxieties around it, the lack of understanding around the medicine. Before that, I was a little bit more biased towards only using plant medicines for healing. And as I was training through MAPS and MDMA assisted therapy, one of the encouragements was to work within the ketamine space and learn about it.

as well. so being able to just go through that process, where I was getting an inner muscular dosage, I noticed how much of the anxiety around letting a medical professional inject me with medicine. You know, there's so much history within the black community around like the Tuskegee experiments, and just areas where, you know, the medical professionals are not to be trusted.

And even though I had been working in mental health for a long period of time, I didn't realize how much of that bias was still there for me. Some of that anxiety was still there. So going through that and really preparing myself for what the journey was gonna look like, using my own preparation questions that I use for other psychedelics and just really asking myself, what was I wanting from this experience?

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (22:36.488)
What was I going in the hill and setting strong intentions and recognizing the fears? It really was a beautiful experience in the sense that I felt held and I felt safe. And that was something that's kind of rare when it comes to what we do since we're usually on the other side of that. Being able to be in a space where other people are exploring their own shadows, but also being able to go into the unknown. It was something that I had needed for a long time.

I didn't recognize that. And I was curious about what it would look like in comparison to some of the other medicines. And for me, was like having my ancestors massage all the trauma out of my body. Like I could feel the pebbles, the marbles just coming out. And even though I lead people in guided meditation and breath work, it really felt like for the first time in a long time that I was breathing, you know, and I could...

really noticed that exhale when I was going through it. Even as my mind would speed up and say, we have to do this, we got to pick up the kids, we got to go do all these things, call your clients. I could hear that whisper of just slowing down. You know, it's okay to slow down. You're doing everything you need to do right now. And really feeling that that safety from the facilitator. You know, I've, I've heard this from other clients, when I'm working with them of

you were right there, you were right with me. And that was what I had felt in those experiences. Even though they didn't have to say anything, it was just their presence of being there and fully being aware. That's something that, you know, I think on one side you take for granted, but for me, it really sparked like the understanding of how this can be a powerful tool to help a lot of communities that usually they won't go in.

for treatment, don't have the time to actually go and do 40 hours of therapy, 50 hours of therapy over a year. But being able to really touch into those points in a non-reactive state. I think there was that piece that I knew so much about the science of it, I could feel my amygdala slowing down and just like, there wasn't that fight flight freeze. And it was like, wow, okay, like I can really experience this. I was able to connect these pieces even.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (25:01.208)
the relationship with my partner and I, we've been married for 11 years now. And so just looking at our cultural backgrounds and recognizing how we communicate and that we're both fiery people and that, you know, the fight that we've, you know, just encompassed really, that's how we've connected. And also we can connect in different ways, like that allowance to be a little bit different in those moments. That's something that I've carried on.

since that journey even. And that's what I think is really beautiful is if you do use practices of integration after that one experience can be profound and it can overlap even the other experiences that you have. And that's why I try to support all my clients in knowing that it may not be right now that you remember or that piece makes the perfect amount of sense. But for me, like, you know, three years later, I'm able to look back and like,

I know exactly why and how and that understanding and also recognizing the beauty of all the different medicines. I think that's something that can get a little bit foggy for some people is that when you're studying and practicing one, it becomes that this is the way. I truly believe is all of these, there's different ways, there's different paths. And for each person, we're at a different healing point. For me,

You know, that was a healing point of just being able to sit and be still. Yeah.

Maria Lloyd (26:30.294)
That's awesome. Could you share a little more about, because I know you're doing some research right now working with psilocybin and, you again, these medicines are not legal yet, but we have all the research and we're moving in that direction. So share a little bit about some of your work with the other medicines that you've done.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (26:50.338)
Yeah. Yeah. psilocybin is definitely the one that for me, think that's like my, the root medicine. I come from Salinas, California, right next to Santa Cruz. So it's like, it's, it's abundant there. And, you know, I think the ups and downs of the psilocybin where there's those waves that you go through and that expansion from, you know, the stomach to just the mind and that,

that sensation that clients go through where there's a big grieving process, that part of recognizing the old self and exploring the new self. I think that it's interesting in the sense that, you know, that gray expansion time lasts a little bit longer. And that, you know, the, feeling of the unknown is so much more pronounced with psilocybin as in comparison to ketamine where it is a little bit.

ketamine is a little bit more gentle in being able to go into that raised up peak and then being able to kind of level out. Where I do notice that with psilocybin, it seems to connect with people where they're at in a way that even if they thought this is gonna be a blissful experience, this might be the one that rocks you to your core. And even if you have a lot of experience with it.

it truly can bring up a lot of those shadows that need to be explored. So I do believe that those intentions that are set, you know, they have to be checked on throughout the experience. And it is different, like to see from traditional ceremony versus research. I believe there's definitely a place for both of them. It's important to have clinical research that backs a lot of the stuff that we're seeing and the evidence.

But also the sterile environment of research, you know, it doesn't tell the full story. I think there is something to be said about, you know, a lot of these indigenous practices that have been carried on for years, you know, right? Like it gets passed down in the lineage. And I think it's important to hold both of them. I think they both can exist because we do have clients that that's what they're seeking is more of that spiritual emergence. And then for others, they are trying to seek.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (29:14.114)
that clinical setting where they understand all the science behind it. And I think that that's where the mysticism and science really meet right now. We're at that point.

Maria Lloyd (29:25.6)
Yeah, definitely. If someone was considering, so let's say they're doing the ketamine and they're thinking of maybe going somewhere where it's legal to do these journeys, like you said, in ceremony or wanting to sign up for some of these research, know, clinical trials with psilocybin, what would you say the experience would be, like, what to expect for them?

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (29:53.538)
Yeah, so it depends.

Maria Lloyd (29:55.124)
In terms of how it's different, let's say they've done ketamine and they're like curious, like what would some of the differences be in your perspective?

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (30:03.682)
I think when it comes to the research study, is a, there's a, you have to be, you really have to work on the expectations because there's less guidance in those research studies, right? Like they're not allowed to interfere as a facilitator in how they're holding space. Yes, there's partial ceremonial aspects to it, but also they can't lean in as much. And then you also will run the risk of getting one of the placebo groups.

So that could be that you're sitting in there for six, six to eight hours where you have no medicine, you know, and that can be its own traumatizing experiences. So I think luckily now what I've seen across the board is for most of the research studies are being put out there now. If someone does get a placebo, they are going to, after the study is complete, they are able to go in and do an actual medicine session, which I think that that's been put, put out there, especially after

Maria Lloyd (30:38.518)
Right.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (31:01.782)
MAPS has done so much research around MDMA, assisted therapies. When it comes to going to ceremony and, you know, people say underground, but like to be able to go into those, I do think there's more of a community sense in it. You know, a lot of times you'll see more groups being held in that way. And I do believe that it's important to ask those questions to the person that's facilitating, whether it's research or

know, ceremony, but really being able to ask them about their lineage, where did they learn about these medicines? How did they study them? What is their practice? What is their relationship with them? I know for the research studies, the facilitator can't answer that, but within the ceremonies, you know, usually the facilitator will be able to talk about that and normalize what their experience is. But also again, that going in, depending on

what the intention is really sets that mood, whether it's, you know, grieving a loved one, whether it's trying to, you know, let go of substances in some way, whether it's just expansion and growing. I think that each ceremony can be really different, but that, being able to put that upfront and being honest with yourself of what that will look like on the other side. I think that's all very important to explore before, before you go in there.

Dr Yanuck (32:27.946)
Yeah. I'm curious what your thoughts are on kind of the future of this space in terms of accessibility, right? Like I think at this point, probably less than 1 % of people that would likely benefit from this or be a candidate from it are actually able to afford it or set aside a time for it. Right. And so I think the problem that I see is you have to constantly find this balance between

making sure that the medicine is regulated in a way that it's used in a safe way. But with that regulation comes increased price that gets passed on to the consumer. Right. And so we see as psilocybin gets legalized in a few states and regions that it is, it's extraordinarily prohibitive to the point where, I mean, in Oregon, it could be three to five K for a single journey. Right. And we know that, I mean, the mushroom itself is maybe 50, 60, but if that, right, it's not

The money is going towards the overhead and regulation and things like that. And so how do you see this space growing in a way that actually allows people who don't have that kind of money to get access to it, but also feel safe that they're in an environment? Because these regulations, a lot of them are really reasonable, right? To like have standards in place that you know, the dose that you're getting, you know that you're in a space that is the employees are all vetted, that there's, you

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (33:43.63)
Mm-hmm.

Dr Yanuck (33:54.219)
consent and touching and all that kind of stuff. Like how do you see this growing into a sustainable way?

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (33:56.632)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's such a great question. It's going to be messy. That's that, you know, like I think the truth is, is like, you know, these things don't grow in clean situations. They grow from the mud. And truly, I think that that's what it's going to be where, you know, some states are going to be very hard nosed about it, where they the regulation are going to be very high. You're going to see a lot of the one percent or that higher echelons that can afford it. I think that the way that it will

Dr Yanuck (34:05.792)
Yeah.

Dr Yanuck (34:24.161)
Mm-hmm.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (34:28.738)
row though, like in the most organic ways that you have more groups centered around the preparation and the integration process. Because those are the ways that at least the insurance panels will probably be able to cover early on. And then, you know, like within the facilitation, I think that that's an interesting topic because, you know, if you put a license where you have to get a facilitation license,

we already see that with therapy where there are people that they can go and they're book smart and they can get the license and do all that, but they should not be holding space for other people as therapists. And so I think that there's going to be some chaos with that, but I do see it as like almost a lineage piece again, where, know, if someone has a background that's been vetted and people are starting to see, okay, like I think of it as like, you know,

Dr Yanuck (35:06.504)
Anyway.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (35:24.93)
six degrees of separation where the truly successful in this industry will be the ones that, you know, they have a good record, you know, that when people come to see them, they're held not just in the medicine, but also in that integration process. And I think that that's where even for me, some of my partnerships when I'm working with, you know, ketamine or even the research around psilocybin, I'm really picky about what...

what programs I'm working with and I make it clear where my stance is and what I'm comfortable holding space for. But I do see that like, I hate that they say it's the Wild West with ketamine or even with psychedelics, but it truly is because that desperation that we see for so many people, they're willing to sacrifice safety just to be healed or just to go through that process. And that's, I mean, that's where I got my start truly was

Dr Yanuck (36:04.106)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (36:19.444)
I had so many veterans coming to me, they were getting out of the military and they were going and doing, you know, psilocybin or they were doing ayahuasca journeys in different countries. And so I really started focusing on the prep and the integration part of it, because that's what was being left out. And so it's tricky because, you know, as we saw with certain companies, it's like you can push the ball so much forward. But if you don't get FDA approval.

Dr Yanuck (36:36.84)
Mm-hmm.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (36:47.084)
You know, that's when these other corporations are going to start coming in, which they already are. And we see that. But I think that that authenticity to what is their actual goal? Is it a money grab or is it to actually help people? I think you're going to see more creativity around the helping people where it is a sustainable model. think that's where we're at right now is what is the sustainable model where facilitators aren't starving, you know, and the clients aren't aren't going broke.

Dr Yanuck (37:14.321)
Yeah.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (37:16.888)
going into these types of medicine sessions.

Dr Yanuck (37:20.457)
Yeah, no, I appreciate that was a really good like kind of holistic answer to it.

Maria Lloyd (37:25.128)
And similarly to what and I talk about is that set and setting, but also the holding space and the intention and the integration are such a critical part with these medicines. And I feel like people are using them on their own recreationally and they're going to get some benefit, but it's also dangerous. Like I do think there's something to be said even for these

go to another country and do these ceremonies, you have to be really careful about who's facilitating them. Because not having facilitation and doing things by yourself, when some of those dark places come up, it can be a bad experience, like a really negative experience and hard to kind of work through. I don't know, what is your stance on that?

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (38:13.784)
Yeah, you know, I, have a lot of family that are asking about this now a lot more since I've been very vocal about my stance on all this. And, you know, it is that vetting process. Like if to really know, like, do you feel okay asking this person about their thoughts or feelings about this? Like, you know, we do start to see more of a cultish energy that comes around this because

you know, that it is enticing when you see other people healing to almost say, well, I'm a part of this, right? And we're going to see more of that happen. But if we actually support our clients and like how they're talking about how they're asking questions around it, think that some of those risks can be mitigated. But it is, it's, it's a difficult dance because, know, like, as we see, you know, there's, there's a lot of harm that happens out of this because you're in a vulnerable state.

and that, that shadow work, if I, one of questions that I always ask, if someone's going to sit for me is how do you do your work? Like, what is it that you do for your work? What, you know, what practices are you going through right now? It doesn't mean they have to share every aspect about themselves, but to know that they're still doing the work. Cause I do think that anyone that's in this space that's truly doing it, there's a recognition that we're constantly healing and we're constantly having to go back, especially as we ingest.

all this stuff on a regular basis, if we're not doing it. And I think that's even for me, I like taking space between facilitations because if I have enough space to really check in with self, I'll notice where some of those battle wounds are. And I can really do my self care before going back in and holding that space. And if it's not right, it's okay. It's not right. It's not the time, you know, it's not the season. And, you know, if someone's

Dr Yanuck (39:41.181)
Mm-hmm.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (40:07.21)
not okay with acknowledgment. This is all knowing kind of sense. That's usually a red flag.

Maria Lloyd (40:13.142)
Yeah, I love that question. Like, how are you doing this work? mean, no one would ever ask me that as a therapist, but in this space, it's like a perfectly reasonable question, right? Because there's an awareness that we should be doing work on ourselves.

Dr Yanuck (40:17.041)
Yeah.

Dr Yanuck (40:23.932)
Yeah.

Dr Yanuck (40:29.63)
I'm curious, and I apologize if I don't word this correctly, but it's coming from a place of authenticity and truly caring, I promise. So, I mean, there's an obvious difference here, right? Like Maria and I are both white individuals and you are someone of color. And I think in our space, you are really the exception, right? And so how do we, I mean, I hope...

that we can get to a point of parity where we have a lot of facilitators of color and therapists of color and doctors of color. And I think that that will happen over time, but in the interim, as these communities with people of color are suffering, how do we, as people maybe without their background experience, reach them where they're at and maybe help them to feel like they can trust us?

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (41:18.055)
Oh, that's a great question. And I know it's coming from an authentic place. So I thank you for even phrasing and putting it out there. Because I mean, that's one of the things that I've honestly, I like that's why I wrote that book, you know, climbing out of the box, a of healing for systemic racism. It was to just demonstrate these people that are willing to hold space are are people to be trusted. And here are ways that you can

Dr Yanuck (41:32.317)
Mm-hmm.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (41:46.09)
start that process of trust because there's so many old wounds and fear around that. I think for the clinician, you know, have to recognize that, that each person we see, they are coming with their own layers. And I think we know that at an existential level, but the cultural piece usually gets missed. And so being able to have that sensitivity and vulnerability to acknowledge like, you know, I may be an expert, but I am not an expert on you, right? I don't know every aspect of you.

Dr Yanuck (42:12.775)
Mm-hmm.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (42:14.404)
And just as you asked that question, right, from a place of curiosity rather than judgment, I think that that is the biggest aspect. Like, psychoeducation is kind of how I've mapped my way through this weird time of like, it's kind of legal, but it's kind of not legal. Like, nobody really wants to be the spearhead because they don't want to be made the example of. And so it's like, for me, it was like, okay, you know, like,

Education is the number one thing. How do I educate on these things? You know, like if you're, if you're micro dosing, like here are some protocols of safety and this is why I've created these protocols to normalize it. You know, if you're trying to do these types of medicines, here are the best, the research, the clinical research, and I can break it down in a way that it's digestible rather than APA format where most people don't understand what's going on, right?

Dr Yanuck (43:07.366)
Mm-hmm.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (43:09.378)
I think that being able to go into those spaces as well and just be in that vulnerable state of the other is really important. I think that that's where I've developed so much community in therapy really is like, you know, there are communities that I don't know a lot about. And so being able to acknowledge that with them and ask them like, what are they curious about my culture? What are the fears that they're worried about, you know, within if they had a client like me?

Dr Yanuck (43:33.084)
Mm-hmm.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (43:38.468)
I think the consulting and networking groups are huge. And I know during the pandemic, we were all pretty burnt out from communication. So I know a lot of those networks got broken down, but being able to continue to reestablish those, I think it's really important. The other piece is like, I say like sliding scale and scholarships. Those are important aspects too. Those are things that I've definitely put into the works and it's tricky.

Dr Yanuck (43:48.518)
Mm-hmm.

Dr Yanuck (44:03.932)
for sure.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (44:06.98)
Because again, for a lot of us in this field, our focal point was not business. So being able to run a sustainable business is important because if we're not running that, then we're in that starving mentality and that's where the shadow comes out. That's where that unhealthy nature. So I think that being able to just establish different types of psychoeducation groups and open houses around this,

Maria Lloyd (44:12.362)
Mm-hmm.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (44:35.214)
those are kind of the ways. then like, even you y'all having me here today, like this is a way of being able to talk about this, you know, in a safe capacity because I'm not, I don't feel any judgment or shame around talking about this. I taught multicultural psychology for, for, you know, a reason, because it was just, this is, these are the conversations that I would have on a regular basis. But if you're only having them one-on-one,

Dr Yanuck (44:53.638)
You

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (45:01.56)
it doesn't get seen. It doesn't normalize the idea that we can have these conversations. I think that's really important. know, like when people see us coming together and even the idea around appropriation of these medicines. What I'm seeing more is that people are honoring the lineages, honoring that, you know, like even for me, I say, I come from a broken lineage because a lot of my ancestors carried these medicines, but you know, we don't get to talk about them and it gets vilified.

Dr Yanuck (45:06.918)
Mm-hmm.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (45:31.748)
I even joke about this, like, I really come from like the Thizz Nation in the Bay Area where that's where MDMA was really getting introduced to inner city people, right? And, you know, and gangsters and they were changing their mindset. They were starting to feel the sensations of love. And that might not be like, you know, clinical, but really it's like you look at the generations after, you see a lot of groups that were listening to Mac Dre that are college graduates now.

Dr Yanuck (45:42.396)
Mm-hmm.

Maria Lloyd (45:45.994)
you

Dr Yanuck (45:58.895)
Yeah.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (45:59.992)
Right? Like you start to see the expansion of the mind. And so we have to celebrate those pieces as well.

Maria Lloyd (46:01.497)
Awesome.

Dr Yanuck (46:06.522)
I can ask you so many questions. Something I was reflecting on last week, I was talking with my wife about this, that something that's so strange in this space is I think when we look at, I'm trying to bring in a concept that has, terms of these kind of tribal practices to medicine that have been going on for thousands of years per se, for some.

Maria Lloyd (46:08.426)
That's a great answer.

Dr Yanuck (46:34.18)
but there's a lot of it that is really artificial and foreign. And one of the biggest ones is what I discussed where like, I think in theory, you do these, you undergo these vulnerable experiences with your tribe and your people. And what we're asking people to do is come to a place that they have a very superficial understanding of who I am and my tribe. And I have a very superficial understanding of who they are and their tribe and just let go and open up and trust me. And like that, that's not natural, right? And so I'm curious.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (47:01.561)
Yeah.

Dr Yanuck (47:03.69)
how you think we can bridge that gap and the reality of where we are now with this medicine versus how they were used for thousands of years,

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (47:11.084)
Yeah, man, that's such a great question because it's like, you know, I almost feel like we're always trying to get our clients to trust their intuition. You know, if there's been a break in their intuition or they've been shamed for using it, you know, like if we can get them back to that, right. And it's like, trust me as far as you can trust me. You know, don't go past the point where you don't say, right, like not not giving me all the power, you know, because I think that that's where

Dr Yanuck (47:21.423)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Dr Yanuck (47:32.917)
Mm-hmm, that's great.

Dr Yanuck (47:37.786)
Mm.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (47:39.598)
we find a lot of traumatic experiences when it comes to not just psychedelics, but in spiritual practices, religions, things like that, right? Like politics, people giving their power over to someone else and thinking that that's what trust looks like when really it's like, no, you can trust me to show up in this role, in this space, and this is how I'm presenting myself. This is how I'm coming into it. You know, this is my boundary. I'm okay telling you my boundary because this is as far as I can go here and now.

Dr Yanuck (48:09.752)
Mm-hmm.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (48:10.3)
at a different time at a different space. And I think that's why integration is beautiful. Cause it's even that like between therapeutic touch, right? Putting a hand on the shoulder. If they said, no, that first time around when you were doing the preparation, totally will not cross that boundary. But if they wanted that touch, and then we talk about it in integration and it's like, okay, maybe this next round, the hand on the shoulders. Okay. Then we can do that. Right. And then all of sudden that demonstration of like two.

Dr Yanuck (48:26.426)
Mm-hmm.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (48:38.884)
put a boundary is not to kill the relationship, but it's actually the strength in the relationship.

Dr Yanuck (48:43.962)
Thanks. This is... Yeah.

Maria Lloyd (48:46.048)
Yeah, well, we could talk for a long time. know you're amazing. If you're open to coming back sometime, I really think we would have a lot more questions and maybe in, you know, the people can ask what questions they want, our show notes and through emailing us and we can kind of have you come back again, because you just have so much experience and wisdom and we just appreciate your perspective. I mean, really, it's amazing. And

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (48:49.828)
I'm ready, I'm ready.

Dr Yanuck (48:58.169)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Dr Yanuck (49:11.556)
Mm-hmm.

Maria Lloyd (49:15.54)
So I just wanna thank you personally for taking the time to show up. And I know there's many ways if people live in your area, but you do online therapy as well.

Dr Yanuck (49:19.032)
Yeah.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (49:24.94)
Yes, I do. Yeah, I do. Telehealth remote. If it's just a phone call or video call, I'm also licensed in Arizona as well. So all of California, Arizona, I'm covering. I'm going to keep expanding a bit. I also have two associates that work under me as well who are great and they're trained in the Nomad method. I also have a workshop training that's going to be coming out hopefully by the summertime.

just around supporting people in PrEP integration and non-ordinary states of consciousness. Because I do believe in bringing a lot of this knowledge that I'm getting to learn about and bringing it forth so we can help with harm reduction.

Maria Lloyd (50:02.486)
awesome.

Maria Lloyd (50:08.886)
That's amazing. And the other thing I love is following your Instagram because you do these mindful Mondays. They're so cool. So anyway, there's lots of ways to follow LJ and kind of stay connected to him through his website that we have posted. And Justin, do you have any other last words?

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (50:13.956)
Yeah.

Dr Yanuck (50:25.005)
Yeah, yeah, we'll put that all in the show notes. No, I have nothing to add other than like you're such a gift in this space and I hope you continue doing what you're doing. I would love to talk with you more and I really appreciate you taking the time to spend an afternoon with us. I know you're a busy guy, so thank you so much.

L.J. Lumpkin M.A. LMFT (50:41.766)
thank you so much. Like I said, I'm honored to be here and I love the work y'all are doing. I've been able to listen to your podcast. They're beautiful. And you really are accelerating this practice and process. I think that it's, it's a gem. So please keep doing what you're doing. I know you don't always get to hear it when you're the one putting it all together, but you know, we're listening. So I really appreciate it. I will come back whenever you're ready to have.

Dr Yanuck (50:58.744)
Thanks.

Dr Yanuck (51:03.864)
Cool. Thanks, LJ. All right, well, that's it for now. We'll see you all next time, and thanks for joining us today. Bye, everyone.