Lessons from a legendary Fighter Pilot--Matt 'Freq' Casey

Lt Col. Matt ‘Freq’ Casey is a legend in the Fighter Pilot community.  He’s shot the most high-speed anti-radiation missiles (HARM) in combat, he’s a graduate of the prestigious Air Force Weapons School, and recently retired after a 23 year career in the Air Force.  

He’s flown combat missions in Operations Northern Watch, Southern Watch, and Allied Force while shooting 11 HARM missiles at enemy surface-to-air missile (SAM) sites.

Freq is best described as a warrior monk.  Aside from his military accomplishments, it’s his mindset that sets him apart.  He likens flying to art and through creativity and discipline he is able to bring out the best pilot possible.  

In this wide ranging conversation, he goes into what it’s like to be shot at, the time he put an F-16 out of control, and what makes a great pilot.  He also discusses his mediation routine, why he gave up drinking, and what it means to be a man. 

Lt Col Matt 'Freq' Casey retired in July 2018 having been known as the best damn fighter pilot to ever touch an F-16.  He proudly accepts any challenges to this claim. 

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Transcript

Justin Lee: 0:04

Hi welcome T.D. professionals. PLAYBOOK My name is Justin Lee. I'm an Air Force fighter pilot. I flew the 16 Viper and now fly the F 35 Lightning team. Today I sit down with legendary fighter pilot Matthew Freq Casey. Freak is a legend in the pilot community. Here's a laundry list of accolades but three that stand out are you shut the most harm missiles in combat have anywhere in the world. Who serve in Air Force for 23 years and he's a graduate of the elite Air Force weapons school. More than his accomplishments. What stands out to me is his mindset. He balances an eastern spiritual buddhist philosophy while being an aggressive assertive lethal fighter pilot. I think this is one of the reasons he's excelled in his profession. In the first half of the interview. Beginner's philosophy and routines and then transition in the second half to his combat stories. Like this podcast starting Vergeer viewed on iTunes. Subscribe to it and share it with a friend. Again. Review subscribe. Share that go a long way towards helping out the podcast. Without further ado. Freak Casey. How's the transition been from their force. I love it.

Mat Casey: 2:04

I've never really felt like I was able to do all the things that I wanted in the Air Force. Like I'm not leaving anything on the table there. So. Transitioning up here was a true new adventure for me and I'm. Really digging it and it's. I didn't think this is a job that I would enjoy. But I found a lot of fun in it. So far I mean. Nothing else I just get to go see new cities and. Hang out with different people so it's nice. That seems like a lot of people have trouble transitioning from their first career to their second because you are an Air Force for. What.

Justin Lee: 2:37

20 23 years. E3. Yeah. And I. Recognize that. There's. A part of me that wanted to hang on and. That be my identity. And. It was really important over the last probably. Two to three years to.

Mat Casey: 2:56

Not let that be my identity anymore. What's. Crazy is when I thought that I was doing a good job in the Air Force. When I let that identity go I actually feel like I became better at doing that. Yeah. Like. Somehow that was what was necessary to. Make me do that job as good as I could it was pretty weird. So the transition for me has been. Nothing but peaceful ness and happiness. I mean I love looking back at what I did in the air force's happy times but. I'm not letting it. It's not my glory days man I mean. I still feel like I have stuff to do.

Justin Lee: 3:33

Now that is interesting. I need you. Your last couple years of your career and. Your kind of legendary for having all these other interests. Photography Yogev semi pro poker player. Was. Something. In the latter half of your career or did you always have that. Starting from the beginning. And.

Mat Casey: 3:52

I really dumped everything that I had into becoming a pilot. Like becoming a pilot was not a normal thing for me. I didn't come from a. Household that had. No military members. I was one of the first people in my. Family as far back as I can see that actually went to college. So. Joining the military was an odd thing so I knew I needed a lot of effort into it. When I was fortunate enough to pick up a pilot Slotman and Apotex inside I thought it was the. I thought I had just won the lottery man so I was. I. Dumped everything I could into it for about 10 years and then. I felt like I was kind of losing myself about that and Pierpoint. Like. There were some things that have been important to me. I've always been a spiritually minded person I have a weird thought process in that. We're spiritual beings having a human experience right. Like I'm sure you heard that term before but. That's the way it is for me. And. I felt like I was losing a bit of that. So I wanted to get a little bit more. That philosophy. Yeah I mean. I. I kind of grew up thinking that way. But then in 1993 ish I was sitting on the beach. In Jamaica and I was. Meditating and. I was in. ROTC so there were no. No. Alternative substances involved man. I was completely sober one day sitting on the beach and. I watched this. Dude in a boat. Go by the sunset so I'm just hanging out watching a sunset and. I don't know if you want to go too far into this but man all a sudden like the entire world disappeared and I was. In just. Infinite Space like I was in this infinite space where. Time didn't exist. Distance didn't exist like if I wanted to touch Mars I guess. Like leaned over a little bit like there was no. It was a true mystical experience like. Burning Bush type thing. It was pretty wild and. That there was an infinite amount of knowledge that was there. Like. I knew all the parts of the universe and I knew all the things that were important but it wasn't like. Brain knowledge it wasn't like stuff that had been crammed into my brain it was just. I had. Direct connection with everything I felt. In it. I didn't have the word for it at the time because I grew up in a Christian household. But. I started to sort of became. Buddhist follower of Buddhist philosophy. In college so. I didn't use the term God but that's exactly what it was it was just God it was infinite. And. I got to see a lot of things like it over a span of what seemed like an infinite amount of time I got to see a ton of really cool stuff and recognize what was and wasn't good and what was neat was as I was leaving that experience. It was a voice but it wasn't like spoken word said to me. Everything is important. But nothing matters and that's. Stuck with me as a philosophy. I mean for a very long time I thought I had like won the lottery like holy shit and. Some. The infinite universe just told me gave me a secret. But that wasn't a secret. I mean it's. It's here for all of us. And so I started living my life that way. About that time that was before I graduated college by a couple of years and. So. I realized. There was a lot more to this universe and to who I am than. Just. The. Meat. Body that I carry around all the time and. So I really started to think of life as more of a game like let's let's fucking do this let's have fun and. I worked really hard to get that eyelets lot so. I was always us. And I guess not always but. Most of my adult life I was a spiritual being before I was. Thought of myself as a human being and. I think that gave me a different attitude going into things things weren't as fatalistic a lot of times. Like. If I if this body dies I know that. This thing that I call myself still exists somehow. So I was able to maybe do a little bit more because I didn't have that. Fear hanging over me.

Justin Lee: 8:11

Yeah that's amazing. Yeah. To have that kind of epiphany. That young. That. Can drive your. Career. And. That's. Certainly. What I started meditating when I was deployed to Afghanistan. And just the days are so stressful that meditation was kind of like a rock that I get something I could do every day that I can't control. And. I've been doing it. Just about. Everyday sense for the last two years I think I missed one day. But. It's helped. I haven't had any sort of epiphanies it's been more of a grind for me. But I can notice. Definitely helps a little bit. Throughout my entire life.

Mat Casey: 8:49

You do. You might not recognize the amount of value that that's giving you on a daily basis but as a. Someone looking from the outside it's. Very apparent that. It does man it research your brain every single day. It's rebooting your computer. That. We overwork and it's. I think it's in a really important thing. I think more people should. Recognize that. Shutting down that system even if it's only for 10 seconds is very very important. I think meditation Zik. Paquito life I have a practice that I do every morning and it sounds like you do it so. It doesn't feel on a daily basis like I'm doing anything. But I would. Definitely not want to do you know get away from that practice. Can you talk a little bit about that. Yeah I was in. Roughly the same time like. 1992 1993 was a. Big change for me man. I. I had some pretty bad things happen. Like. It's. Public records. But it will seem weird. But I had my roommates I had a really big party in 92 when I was at work and I. Am home and the cops were there and. Didn't think anything about it. The next day I come home from work and. There's. Five cop cars in my. Yard and. I. Were getting arrested for possession of weed. I mean it was. The cops it smelled weed at their party and. I became part of it. So my life was kind of like. Turn upside down so I moved schools and just like I got to get the hell away from the people that were. You know kind of pulling me down. And. So when I did that I moved up to. Athens. I'd been in a small college town in southern Georgia and then I. Went up to Athens went to UIGEA and I started. Doing yoga with this lady. And she was. It was like an A. It was like a nail salon or something like that it was you know we're laying on the floor in a salon it. In the. Middle of the night do yoga because it was such a weird experience it wasn't as. Normal as it is today. And. She got me into meditating and yoga and all kinds of things. So. I started that change. In 92 and I started at the yoga practice so. I tried other things like I tried lifting heavy weights when I was you know go into the air force and it. It was nifty but I never. That just wasn't me. Yoga has somehow. Balanced me out. So. I got really fortunate last December and met a dude named Giovanni Bartolomeo who's a. Pretty nice guy lives up in Toronto but he teaches a bunch of different courses so. He was he was kind of like why don't you pull all your all the things that are important to you together because I would do them at separate times and he's just like. Man just make a small practice that's forty five minutes or less and then you might actually do it on a daily basis because I'd go through spurts Fred. Meditate for you know. A couple of months at a time then I'd blow it off and think I didn't need that it's not do anything kind of the subtleness we talking about earlier and. So. I developed a practice that works for me and it's I've been able to stick with it. So what I do is I'll do. It. Tan. Sun salutations which is a very basic warm up yoga posture. And then. I'll go right into do a. I do 15 second or 15 deep breaths. In a headstand so I'll do a headstand. And just hang there and it's probably like. 30 to 45 seconds that I'm upside down. But there's. I look at that. I look at the yoga portion is just. Maintaining the flexibility because I look at. Anything that I'm doing what this body is also related to what's going on in the outside world so I want to maintain my flexibility in this world. I look at that upside down ness of doing the headstand as. I want to. I want to be able to accept. Other. You know. Other ways of looking at the world. I'm upside down it doesn't feel good it's weird. And then I go right into this breath work that I do and the breath work is. I do basically three hundred breaths and what I'm doing is. I'll. Breathe. I'm trying to keep it a cyclical breath. Saw breathe in as deeply as I can trying to get as much oxygen down into the bottom of my lungs but fill up my lungs completely. And then exhale all of that. And I do it. So I'll do 66 breaths. And then as soon as I fix. Exhale that 66 breath. Then I hold. My breath with all of the oxygen or all the air out of my lungs for as long as I can. And crazy enough it turns out to be right about two and a half minutes is where I. Hold my breath each time so I'll do 66. Ticket. And. As soon as I can't. Stand that anymore I'll take a deep breath in and then I'll hold that for 60 seconds and then I do 55 breaths 40 or 33 22 and then 11 so I'm. It turns into right around 99 300 whatever that number is of breaths that I'm taking. And then I'll go direct to that that pretty much resets my entire body. There's a lot of. Physiological things that are going on there. You're. Increasing oxygen you're. Decreasing acidity in your body. And then. It kind of gives me that. Kind of tranquil state. When I've gone through all those breaths you know. Sometimes it will leave tingling in your hands or whatever. And then I'll go right into a meditation and I'll try and meditate for 20 minutes so that's my entire morning practice that I. Know. I do is. I'll do it at least once a day. That's. Whether I do it in the morning or evening just depends on what work schedule I'm on. I like the initial. Breath work. Because for me oftentimes if I try to go straight into meditating. Despite mind is just cooking. The whole time but I think having something regimented breathing to do.

Justin Lee: 15:03

Might help get into that state. Yeah man and I mean if you really want to look at.

Mat Casey: 15:09

Where the technique. I mean and there's. Tons of. Techniques that are out there I've gotten pretty into breath work lately. I. Did. Back in the 70s named Stan Graff. He. Was into psychedelics when psychedelics became illegal. He was. A psycho therapists and he. Recognized hey we can get to this same state of being and state of mind the breath work. We don't need these drugs and he. Started teaching people that now that's not what I'm doing. He started a process that. A lot of people. Followed on Halah tropic breath or whatever type of breath work. But what I'm doing is. Basically following a guy named William Hauff. Maybe ever heard of that.

Justin Lee: 15:54

I've heard of him. I've seen some of his holer plunges but I don't know a whole lot about him yet say it's a must do and it's a must. He's got a really nice story he's got I think 26 world records or both hot and cold exposure and all kinds of crazy. You know. He basically.

Mat Casey: 16:15

Showed that you could adjust your physiology with your mind. That's. What. Science does not. Recognize that until he came along and he. Said Okay well you're a superman and he is like nope I can teach people to do this. And he did and he taught a lot of people. This breath technique and cold exposure technique and meditation. And. They injected all of his subjects with the. Annie. E. coli bacteria and. You know all the people that. Didn't get his technique were sick and puking and all the people that did get his technique. Bought it off with very mild. Temperature if anything at all. So. He's it's pretty neat that breath work. It does work. It's something that I think is very important that people do. But. It's also one of the most laboring things like it. It's so weird how sitting down to take 300 breaths. I dread it sometimes. And it's. But once I'm in the middle of it it's like why didn't I dread this this is so awesome. So I don't know. But then the cold exposure is really important to I after I do my practice I will go jump in the shower and I make sure that the end at least at the end of the shower crank it full cold and. Get that because that resets the or. Pulls all the blood. So you've oxygenated your blood and it pulls all the blood into the core of your body because it thinks something crazy is going on when you put that cold water on. And then when you get out of there sends all of that highly oxygenated. Blood back out into your system and. I. I think. I think we're going to find in the next 10 years that. There's a lot of good that comes from cold exposure and. Doing it properly. He's well worth looking into them and I'm taking his course right now and I think it's a pretty neat way of looking at life.

Justin Lee: 18:02

I'll take a look at it. I think it's so fascinating. All this stuff kind of on the cutting edge of science it takes a while for it to be indoctrinated in our culture. But. I know for instance when I was at the Air Force Academy I. Boxed. And. We it's in Colorado Springs where the Olympic Training Center is and we had. Some sports psychologist come over and we did visualization. And I was able to use that in pilot training. And. In combat as well. And it helped out. A ton. But back then it was kind of just this. Weird stuff. Going on. But now if you look. Just about every Olympian practices. Visualization mental toughness you know talk with themselves. You know without berating themselves. I think that's pretty interesting.

Mat Casey: 18:50

I think we are coming along as a society. I mean. When I joined the Air Force I was fighting against the. Very thick skulled. 1980s and 1990s. Fighter pilots. Who. You know. If the computer said X then we do X and. Then I think we had to get around that we have to accept some of the stuff that we called you know. Out there. Are. You know visualization that I mean it's pretty proven now if you. If your brain think something is happening regardless of how you get it there. Then it's. It's just the same as it actually physically happening. I mean you can set. Entire scenes into your world. Just with your thought. I mean it's very difficult to do to. Actually believe the thought but. If you can if you can go through that like you're talking about. You know. For boxing or anything that's. That's huge if you can get your mind to see that it's not actually. To not be fearful of things. Man. It makes your whole world completely different. I think. I think that we're on the cutting edge just like you said. People are waking up to the fact that. We have to take responsibility for our own actions at all times. And what that means is we have to be as good as we possibly can and that's. Why. I think. I see that when I look at you know watch you do your job and there's a few people that I see that are really taking that on. And. I. Find that neat. That the world starting to wake up a little bit and. I think as humans we are going to grow. I think it's neat. Yeah I definitely see kind of a change at least in the fighter pilot community.

Justin Lee: 20:38

And I can only imagine what it was like in the 90s. Goin. Through that. How did. I get those practices help because you. Went to combat you're in Kosovo. I think you've shot the. Most harms. That anybody in the world is that. Correct in combat.

Mat Casey: 20:54

I guess. Yeah I think in combat that's definitely true. And I and I haven't checked that with the Navy but I know Air Force. Why. That's probably true. Yeah. So I got to look at. I was. You know it was weird man I was a lieutenant. Brand lieutenant when we were Northern Watch in. Northern Iraq and that was. That was a time when. I thing. You know the Iraqis had had enough hardship flying over him every day and they. They were shooting back. So on a daily basis they were shooting at us and we were shooting at them and as a lieutenant I was. Like. I guess this is the way it is I didn't know that there was a. Time to be scared. Plus the mentality that I told you about earlier that I brought in it was just like. Hey let's let's see how. Good we can be at this fighter pilot thing and. Have fun with this. You know if we die. If this body dies fine. I. Still got. Whatever this is that's a live outside of it that's. Still going to continue on so I wasn't actually. Scared. I mean. I have a journal from that and it's fun to read because it shows that there is fear there but I don't really look back. With that. As far as. Like not wanting to go on like I I still wanted to go to work every day. I was still happy to be there. So I got lucky as a lieutenant I was around. Those hardheaded like I said 80s and 90s dudes that. Were really more about. Brute force than anything. I think that's the difference that we have now. There's a lot of people that are. You know want to crap on the younger generations that. They're. There too much. They're too soft. But the reality is there's a there's a balance there we can't use brute force anymore all the time that doesn't work and we've got to use our brains a little bit more and we've got to. But we have to find the middle we have to be. You know. We have to be ready to die at any minute if that's our job. You know I love the. I love that. The Sparta. The look right like I mean those dudes wanted to say. Hey this is a good day to go die. And then they'd go out and. Fight their asses off. I mean that's. That's what we need. If we're going to have a military. So I felt fortunate so I had I had a lot of really good people around me that were. Bridging that gap between. Brains and brute force. They were doing good work and I was just happened to be thrown into a lot of. Combat at the very beginning. I mean. I had. Three times more combat time that I had training Amne at 16. But. By the end of my first year. And asked so he went to from Northern Watch I shot my first arm there we got shot at multiple times. He explained. What a Harmans. Yes it's the 800 pound missile that. Comes off of. Sixteens or some of the Navy airplanes that goes after the. Surface to air. Radar sites that are shooting missiles back at us. So we're trying to look for their. Radars and take out their radar so they can't guide any missiles that are jets. So. Harmas high speed anti radiation missile. And. It was. A really fun thing because it's. 10000 plus pounds of thrust coming off your jets. Huge rocket motor goes. You know. Greater than three times the speed of sound. It's a fun thing to see come off the jet it's a. It's a neat thing but. The problem with it is. Anytime you're shooting it you're shooting it. Usually. Pretty close to something they shoot back. It's. The what was it like.

Justin Lee: 24:38

The first time you shot one of those things. Yeah I mean my first time was kind of weird it was I. I didn't.

Mat Casey: 24:45

Really think that the threat we were shooting I mean that radar that we were shooting was worth shooting that was kind of funny. The guy that I was with was. Pretty cowboy like you just wanted to. Make the Iraqis pay for shooting at us they just shot two Sacu missiles at us so he. Wanted to. He wanted to make them pay. So we're going to shoot it now. I. Had been given an order to not shoot into a particular town which I thought was a great order at that time it's like. If you see anything in this town make sure you're not shooting directly into the town because when this missile misses the radar turns off it's. Going into someone's apartment or something and it's. You know. That much energy at. That highest speed it's not going to turn out good for whoever it is. Plus it as a projectile in the end it's going to blow up so. So I. I wait until I have the right shot and I shoot to make sure it's not going to go into the town and. It was exhilarating mad. I mean it's you. You're all alone. In this little airplane. And it has this huge rocket motor plume that comes off this thing and. You can hear the sound of it in your airplane and you think the entire world can hear and see you. So I went from being what I thought was. Invisible over Iraq to being holy shit. Everyone can see me right now so that's a little bit scary. The rocket motor. Messes with your actual. Jet engine so the jet engine rolls back a little bit it feels like a slowdown. You watch your engine kind of roll back it's not a good feeling to think that your motor might quit when you're hanging out over someone else's country. So. That was. That was a neat thing but it was. It was not. As satisfying as it. As that. Harms that I got to show. When we went to eat slobby I actually felt like. We were more of a. Cat and mouse game in Yugoslavia so it wasn't we weren't. Purely dominating as we were told. You know night one going into Yugoslavia there were eight of us. I actually didn't fly that night. I was a. Backup and they. The. O.G.. Ops group commander said. Hey there's eight of the aspects six of you to come back. I mean that's kind of what we're looking at. That's not what we're looking at in northern Iraq at the time. So. The mindset was completely different. We were. Briefed prior to going into Yugoslavia that it was going to be an ass kicker man. I mean that we we are going to lose a lot of airplanes and a lot of people to go do this. So it was that was. When it went from ham on the good team to kind of on an equal team as what we thought. We found out later that was. A. Buckley were able to make appen but that the harms that I shot in Yugoslavia and Kosovo were. A lot more. Gratifying if you will because I knew what they are going after. I knew that they were. Hitting sites that were. They were shooting every night. I mean some nights they're shooting upwards of 25 30 missiles at us. So it was a. Pretty nasty sight. Some nights. Is.

Justin Lee: 27:47

Yeah. I mean you always hear back the. Desert Storm. When they told the pilots 50 percent of you aren't coming back. 91. Yeah. Unfortunately it worked out. But it seems like. You're one of the last. Generations that actually kind of. Had a speech. Like that. Because I know now we usually go into a permissive environment and it's mostly the guys on the ground. They're absorbing most of the risk. So what was that like when. Your squadron commander. Said you guys are down and told you that.

Mat Casey: 28:17

Yeah. I mean how I want to say upfront that I think that. I think it's a shame that we have to have it this way. But. I think that. As a society we've lost the you know. Native or indigenous cultures used to have Beijing quests or something that was solidifying a person becoming an adult. Male usually a male. Becoming an. Adult man. And. That was the night that I felt it. You know I did. Like I said I didn't find one but that speech hit me because I was. Friends with everyone in that room. And then I got to fly a night to. An. You know they had. It had. It had been a shit show that the previous night and I knew it was going to be the same the night that I went out the first night. So. There is a. There is a. Definite hardening of the steel that night man. I mean I felt like. I felt like after that night. All the fears of seeing missiles come tired yet all the fears of. Shooting and. You know being. Highlighting yourself over a really bad country or. Place where. They're defending themselves they're trying to knock us out of the sky. That was. It was. The best and worst thing in my life at that time. I mean it was. Super scary night 1 for me those night. Of the. Conflict was. I was on I think. It was my. Dio's wing that. Director Operations wing. And we were flying night trails. We're about five miles apart. And I was supposed to keep up with him on the radar which was not. An easy task and. We are just to the west. So. I was actually flying out of Spangdahlem so we flew from Germany down around Austria and. In through Hungary we went to the tanker tractors north of Yugoslavia and then we pushed in and we are just to the west of Belgrade that night. I guess we were maybe 20 to 30 miles west of Belgrade but it was still you didn't know which direction things were coming from. Most of them are coming from our East Side. And. We were shooting harms for all the strikers that were going in. So we would. You know as a wingman I would take what we call the shots. It's this preemptive shot. Where I'm kind of where we thought. Their threats were and it would. If. If by the time. Our guys were in there and they turn on their radars that's we were hoping it was going to go after. So I shot my first harm. You know. 30 seconds into country. Weird feeling again. And then once we got into that cap. We had to. Be. Turned. About. Five miles apart like I said unmarred turning back to the north when. NSA 3 led us up. And. It was. Neither one of us knew who that missile was where we saw the missile come off the ground we both threat reacted. And it was one of those. I had already seen two missiles I had seen. Missiles in Iraq. So. I thought that's no big deal but this was different. There were a lot closer. There were a lot faster. And it was not. There is that. How long have I been. Frozen type feeling like in retrospect it was probably a fraction of a second. But. At. That time it felt like. You know. Literal time it stopped. And I was having to. Fight for my life at that point. Now. I look back on it now and realize that wasn't the case. The missile is going in between us actually Knepper really guided on either one of us but we are five miles apart. We didn't know who it was Aptor so we. Did the forthright reaction and. Weirdly enough the missile blew up in between us and I thought it hit him. He thought it hit me. It was. Kind of a weird. Scenario like it. Deathly silent on the radio for a second thinking Man I just lost my flight late. How the fuck do I get back to Germany. You know like all those weird thoughts going through your mind. After. After you just. You know thought for sure that that missile in a way you can't really put a. When you say fast about a missile we don't really. Even now don't even grasp it like this say fast. I mean that thing's doing three or four times the speed of sound. I mean it's. 40 miles a minute. Sometimes those things are flying and they're only 15 miles away at the most so. It's very fast when it's coming at your end. The reactions are. Have to be good and it worked out for me. I mean. That night I went home I shot both my harm. I should have just punched off my wing tanks but I've. Actually never punched off. Wing tanks at my hip and even I've tried sort of I've tried multiple times which which says that I on my bucket list. Yeah. I'd tried numerous times to get rid of those things and I never found this the button to hit properly. So. That says something about my shoddy training I guess. But. Did you see that missile. Was your first indication the boost phase or did you guys get lit up and then. The missiles coming off the ground and then almost immediately. There. We are. We had that. Spike up of that. Off our east side so it was purely the missile at the whole everything lit up it was a little bit spotty clouds out there it wasn't like we were in the clouds but it was spotty. So. The underside of all the clouds lit up you could see a missile or. 50 60 miles easily it was. So bright. And we are the only one. I mean. More people were getting shot at. On the other side to. Belgrade that night. So. It was it. It was a busy night for everyone. And. Like I said looking back I don't feel like I was as threatened as I felt at the time. But. You know I mean. There's. There's a lot of hatred coming at you at that point so who knows. Yeah I mean even a little bit I know. Now the stakes for myself weren't quite as high when I was in Afghanistan. But.

Justin Lee: 34:47

It's so outside the realm of what we do day to day here in America. Like actually going to combat and actually employing ordnance I think. What you said was right it's definitely hardening of the steel. And. And in today's society. People don't get a chance to actually. Prove themselves and test themselves. And it's just something so outside the realm. That. It's kind of.

Mat Casey: 35:15

Inspiring. Yeah I agree with you. I think. I don't wish that on anyone. Mike I don't even wish it on. The people that were there to fight. But I. I do wish the experience of. Making that strange history. And there is no doubt in my mind after that night at. I'd done something that. The majority of and I are. Like. In our. No time prime had not done. So. That was. That was interesting. It was it was a different way of looking at myself. It is still brought all kinds of I mean. As a human being are constantly questioning ourselves. I mean the majority of us are. And. That left one question. Answered. But it. Brought up a whole list of other ones like Hey. Do I want to go do this again. Am I ready to go do this again. And we saw. Plenty of guys that. Weren't. Right. Like I'm not. I'm not crapping on those guys but. There were plenty of guys that decided that was enough and. Took themselves off the schedule and. Made all kinds of excuses to not go out there again. And I feel bad for them I mean. I feel bad that they've got to. You know and go through life. Wondering still if they have what it takes to you know kind of look death in the face. We're all going to fight. We're all going to face him. We all had to face him. But. He had the ability to walk right up to him and. I don't know that it matters but I know in my life that it did matter at the time. It. Said no. You can do this f 16 thing. Because. Like I said man I didn't come from a family that was military. They. Had a military background or even a. Educated background. So. Going from. A bunch of unknowns to at least. A known that was that was a huge thing for me. I really did feel like that was. It is stupid sounds. Was. That was. The beginning of. Putting myself together as the person that I am today was. Being tested that month.

Justin Lee: 37:26

That I agree for my end. I think it empowered me to. But I was on the right path. You know I. Could go into combat and actually perform well. And I think it. Helped me to. Not worry about having to. Kind of fulfill that kind of macho role. So meditation you know I could. Do stuff like meditation that I could do stuff like this. Odd cast. And I could be myself a little bit more because I knew. That I had it in me. As opposed to just. Just wondering.

Mat Casey: 37:59

Yeah. Yeah I mean I don't know how we get around that. As I'm starting to explore. You know what it is to have an ego like I I think there's. The funniest thing to me. I mean I might be. Looked at differently in the airport. But I. I. I. Did as. Good of a job I felt as I could have. Not carrying. Arrogance around with me. Maybe I'm lying to myself there but. I felt that there was no need to after that experience that there were people that were on the ground doing way more heroic things and I was doing. And. I started to see that. Throughout the Air Force that the people that. Were carrying a lot of arrogance around with them. Usually had something to hide. I mean. I know all the people that were there with me that night. That. I look up to still. I don't see arrogance in those people I see. I see of deep belief in themselves but I don't see. The need to thump their chest to anyone else. They. They proved everything they need to do to themselves and that was all that was important and. That was anything. So your point is very valid. I don't think we. Put enough emphasis on that.

Justin Lee: 39:23

Yeah. And I think that's true of pretty much anything in life if you. See the. People. Oftentimes they're not overly arrogant. Because they're not trying to hide.

Mat Casey: 39:33

Yeah. Now I mean that fake it till you make it thing. I mean we've all heard it. And maybe that's what we're doing at that point. But. How do we get around that as a society so that we don't have to. We don't have to allow that. I mean I've been. That my main focus in the past. Probably. Two to five years has been. What is this ego. Like. Why do I need this part of myself. And then. What do I do with it. Like I know that. I know that it's ego that would. Show that arrogance that we're talking about. I know that there's. A reason for it we have to we have to become something. But. I don't know what we do with that ego and I don't. Know that it's important that we hold on to that as part of our society that if you don't have this. You know coming of age event be a combat or whatever. You're not a man that's just not an acceptable way to look at. The World. We've got to find another way of. Giving people that experience and I don't think that. Even though. We've been. Slinging bombs for the past 17 years in Afghanistan I don't think that we have to say that those are the only men in the world that's definitely not a true statement. I think there's I think there's plenty of other people and. I hope that they find other ways to buy in there. You know. Coming of Age. Event whatever it is that doesn't actually take. Going into combat or something like that. I look at the people that do it and I'm still amazed it's so weird to. Have done that. You know. Did. Six straight months of. Combat every pretty much every night. And still look at people and be like amazed by them I mean I'm so amazed by some of the people that I see. On the ground in Afghanistan or even in the air in different places. But there. Is some real. There there's some people that are digging really deep and that's really neat for me to watch still.

Justin Lee: 41:37

Yeah. I mean it's. It's amazing to see the guys on the ground. I know. You know kind of before I. Went into combat. I was just so busy trying to become the best f 16 pilot that I could be that I kind of had blinders on to what everybody else was doing and seen those guys in the mud. Calling in airstrikes were. You know 12 hours on 12 hours off for. A week straight. It was. Just. And. It. I think. Gave me. Perspective. And it gave me the ability to prioritize when I came back. And. Went back to instructing. And I think it really kind of reset. What I value. As an instructor what's important and what's not important. Did you find.

Mat Casey: 42:25

That happened with you. I am I mean that's the whole IITA this thing is. I mean and it goes back to that. What. The universe left me when I was in that state. Right. Like. Everything is important. Like if you look at that like it ever anything that I'm doing truly is important. But. The reality of it is none of it actually matters. Like. That's. You know when we're. Texting back and forth about doing this podcast. When I said that. I started to look at life more from. The standpoint of not being. An F 16 pilot or not being a father or whatever that. You know outward symbol is but being an artist and everything. And that's. That's when. Life began to. Happen. I mean. I can say that you know I I started change and in 2005 I started changing. In 1992. And it just it's been a continual build a bit. You're exactly right. I'm at a place now. Where everything that I look at I see. From a different perspective and I'm allow I allow those things. That are important to me right now to crawl away because nothing truly matters. We we have to pick the things that are important to us because we are. You know. We're so frickin gifted to be. In these bodies and doing the jobs that you and I do. I mean. I hope that everyone finds. Something that they can be happy doing. But. I. Absolutely loved my life. Flying sixteens and teaching people I mean when it came down to it I found that teaching people was way more. Exciting than actually doing it some time. I mean flying the airplane is amazing. But. The fact that I can. Convey information to someone else that became. A real. Neat thing to me and that's when it became a true art form. Like how do I. How do I take what I know. How do I take the lessons of. Being in stressful combat situations and give someone only what they need to flourish. In an environment that I think is still pretty difficult. I mean. Doing. Air to air combat or. You know surface to air combat roles that we've done it and it it's constantly stressful. We could we could tell everyone hey you have to know this because. Means. Someone counted it. Not too long. I think there's 78000 pages. Of stuff that we have to know in order to be 16 pilot. I mean like no one's going to read all that or at least. Really digest it. So it's our job. As artists once we learn our crap to. Be able to give that 78 thousand pages to someone else and a condensed version enough that they're safe. Right. And then. And then it makes them happy like. The happiest people I ever flew with Spiti Rosa Hollis's pistol Albertson's I mean and the names are. There's. A bunch of them. But. I mean those people still looked at that f 16 it's like Man I've got a roller coaster without tracks have got this amazing thing and they would go have fun. They knew this. They knew how to be safe. They knew how to do their job. But they also knew Zachary what they needed to do to. Make sure that it was as fun as it possibly could. Every single. Second they were in that airplane. So. Those were the artists I was fortunate up to gorup around. And it allowed me to become an artist later in my. Time or at least look at my life. From the perspective of being an artist. Like how do I. How do I take every moment. Boil it down to the very minimum that is necessary for someone to understand this and then go have fun.

Justin Lee: 46:05

What do you think makes a good pilot. You know that's a really weird question because I still don't.

Mat Casey: 46:13

Really even consider myself a good pilot. Like. I. I. Would look around a squatter. Today and say. 95 percent of the people there are better than. Me as far as. Just trying to survive that. But I would say yeah but I would say I excelled. I excelled in certain things. I. I was able to. I think a good pilot is. Just being competent and whatever it's necessary to be safe. I think that's the start. Like. Do your job know know what the rules are to be safe and then don't stray from those rules. And then once you've kind of mastered that part which I think is a year or two. And then once you've mastered that part then start adding in. How do I. As a fighter pilot how do I fully control this. Machine. All right. Like. There's a lot of people that want to get rid of the basics because we're not doing the basics anymore like. Basic Fighter maneuvers or. Basic basic surface attack. Well. To me that was where I was. Able to say I want to put my aircraft exactly this point in space. Right. Like. It's. In this three dimensional under a lot of stressful forces. I want to put my aircraft exactly there and that's. That's where. Artistry came in. Like I can't just. Blindly say. If I'm at 15000 feet and I pull this many Gs I'm going to be exactly where I'm supposed to be like. There's so many dynamics that that's not true. You have to be able to see yourself from that third. Those three dimensions and. Move your aircraft to put yourself there so. The first one to be. I would say. Safety like. No. No it makes you safe. Then. Explore the limits. Inside that up a safety net like. A. Do whatever you can to. Test yourself and that aircraft within that antelope. I think you've heard me tell a story before I actually put a jet out of control.

Justin Lee: 48:11

On accident. Now I didn't. Yeah so. I. Was a brand new.

Mat Casey: 48:18

Weapons officer I think I'd only been a weapons ops. Well Nyes. Been a weapons officer for a little over a year. And. So. I. I'm taking a guy out to get him. To be an instructor pilot and it says. He he had failed his first ride. And I was going to be on defense so was just the two of us and. I was. He had. Failed the transition from. Medium range to short range gun work. So I was going to go to 10000 feet and I was going to reverse my direction of turn. And then continue to let him guide me down towards the floor so that he could. Make that transition. Well when I reversed my direction of turn I. Looked at the horizon and. Didn't think anything about it. And I looked back at him and he was slightly lower than me which I thought was weird not usual at this point and. That. The low speed warning horn came on and I. Didn't think anything about it I just pushed on to get and the Horn went out and then. It came on again and I thought That's weird I pushed on a jet again and it. Went out and then it came on and stayed on. And then that's when I brought my head forward and I was. The horizon that I had been looking at was a thunderstorm. Top. And I was about. I was. Way outside where I thought I was in the fact that he had started below me just accentuated this whole thing. So. The jet. You know. Was basically not flying I was 60 degrees nose high. And. I. Had no air speed and that jet gave up and. It was. That was the second time when. You know. After being shot at. That was a second time one time actually stopped on the jet where. I know I did my taxes. I did all kinds of stupid stuff in that. You know like Oh did I lock the door to I let the dogs out. All this stuff has to go into my brain. And I'm sinking into a really alarming rate. Like. When you go listen to the tapes again. He recognized instantly that I was out of control and did a great job and starts calling out altitudes or me. So I'd started at. 10 three. And he's just. Every. Four seconds he's calling out another thousand feet. That's pretty much what I'm sinking at. And. We're supposed to get out of 6000 feet so 7000 feet. He calls 7000 and I can tell. He's. Kind of panicking. I can't. I can't do anything I have. I was not strapped in appropriately and I was actually kind of laying on the HUD so I couldn't figure out what altitude I was at. And. So I just reached down and. Did everything that I wasn't supposed to. I went to a and what. Like the afterburner. Which you're not supposed to do at that point. And. I just basically. Did everything I could to fight that jet. And it. Flopped out. Going through 6000 feet and I bottomed out at 38 hundred feet over the water. Wow. Yeah. But it was you know I was fairly certain I was going to have to eject from that jet. And the fact that I was not in my seat. Let me know that I was going to die when I ejected because. I wouldn't. I there's no way I would have survived that. Ejection. So it was a time stopper. It was. Not fun but I. So when I say explore the limits. I had obviously. That was not exploring the limits. I was over the line. Yeah I was outside the limits. There was no intention there. There was no intention on my part of. Going past that limit. I was purely. In a place that I shouldn't be and just not paying attention. So I would say. Explore the limits of. Buhr whatever craft you're in. And then. And then find your way of doing it. Right. Like. If you continue to do it the way everyone else has done it you might be really good at it. But I don't think you're ever going to be great at it. So. There are plenty of things as you know that I. Was non-standard on. In the F 16. And it's. But. It worked for me. It might not be in a book anywhere but it were. So. I think I think those are kind of the key points to. To being. A good pilot is. I think a lot of people want to skip that first part. They want to you know blow up all the regulations that you can just light your hair and iron. I think that that's. Exactly wrong. I don't think that. That helps. Anyone in any way I think it creates a lot of problems.

Justin Lee: 52:44

Yeah it's more of a gradual expansion of the envelope. Yep. Yep. Yeah.

Mat Casey: 52:50

Yeah and I think the fighter pilot is. I'm glad that it's only 20 to 25 years. It makes me sad that people don't look at it as a. As a classroom. Like I look at it as. That was my classroom for life. One of my classrooms for life and now I've got to. Figure out how to integrate that throughout whatever I'm going to do next. I mean it doesn't. It doesn't in any way. Equate to flying. Airplanes that I'm flying now but. But in life it does. I mean. I think I learned more. By being an f 16 pilot about how to be a good human being. I could have a lot of other places that's just me. So I hope other people are able to find those things. But. For me the S16. Was a. Beautiful classroom to. Learn what it was to stretch what it is to be a human being. Read. Some of these professions that have short careers kind of like a fighter pilot or an athlete.

Justin Lee: 53:51

You kind of live a whole lifetime of experiences. Just a short amount of time you go from being the new green guy to. Being the old.

Mat Casey: 54:00

Old wise guy. I saw only 20 years or so awesome I hope people use it appropriately. When people. Lay on those glory days that. That. That bums me out. I see a lot of people doing it but. I don't know. It's just not me. I have a lot more things that I want to go do. I don't know what they are right now. I'm writing a book. You know. I'm testing myself in so many different ways. What's your book about. It's. It's more about. Putting together. Like all the things that we've been talking about actually it's. Just how. Putting the. I think the term these days is human optimisations. So what is it to really look at what is necessary to optimize yourself. You know like I'm still struggling sometimes with. You know. What is the best. Diet for a human being. I don't know what that is but. I know what it takes to be me. And meet me at my best self. Like. I gave up drinking. December 2nd 2016 because. I was. I was good at it man. I mean. As a. As a fighter pilot that's that's part of our culture. I mean. That. That work hard play hard mentality is definitely there in the fighter community. And. Alcohol comes with it. And I think there's a lot of. Young people are hiding their inabilities through alcohol. Older people are kind of holding on to old times the alcohol there's a lot of reasons. And. So it's a huge part. So. It. Was truly just like a. Hey I want to see what happens when I don't drink for a month. So I. Think. After Thanksgiving I'd had. All the Thanksgiving break up and some time after that because my family was in town and. I'm taken out the. Recycling and realize there's like 6000 beer bottles and. Jack Daniels bottles in there. What the fuck am I doing. So I. Said OK I'm going to take December off of drink. And. I. Took December off and we have a. We used to have a big Christmas party so that was kind of a weird deal to. Be at a Christmas party with a. Ginger ale in hand. You know. It was a weird thing for me. But I also felt that it was it. It was really testing and pushing that. That ego like. That. Who is this that's fighting me. This this egos biting me and why. Like. I've been my ego I am Matt Acey and. For all these years so why is it fighting me over this right now so it made me kind of look a little bit further. And by the end of December. I was it was a little bit more of a game for myself. Like what if I do this for two months. Let's see what happens. I think. In January I think we had gone out to a red flag at Nalis which is you know. Just light the fuse and it's just. More alcohol I mean it's just the scenarios different. And it was kind of a game for me to see. Hey can I make it through this. Without this crutch like I didn't realize how much of a Brach alcohol had been. For me it was. It was just like. Hey do I still have a personality. I mean that was it. That's a major fear man. Do I still have a personality that people are going to like. When I'm. Not drinking because I was never I was always a pretty happy I'm a. Pretty happy person. And then when I would drink I become more happy I was never that drunk asshole. I was always. Fairly fun so I was worried that there was a part of me that wasn't going to be. Liked as a person because of that and that's. Again I thought man who is telling me this what portion of myself is telling this lie. So I dove and I did the red flag and it just turned into next month next month and then. April rolled around and my. Wife was like. Who's. Also a. Fighter pilot and an attorney. She was like I want to try that thing with the and it was like well shit. If I do that it's going to turn into six months. This is weird. And about that point I read a really good book called this naked mind. By any grace. And. I kind of got the book because Talley had been my wife had been suggesting that she was thinking at quitting Hugh. But she didn't have the like. Did it. Any of the same games to play with herself. It was purely a. I don't know I'm where to do this but it looks like you're having fun trying it. So she was going to try to do so. I read this book and. It really gave me a lot of insight as to why as a society we drink. And. When I. When I boil it down I don't I don't care all. That people drink. Like. Right now. I'm. Quite certain I'm not going to go back to being a drinker. But it's. I don't look at other people on the go and you're so screwed up you're drinking that's not it at all. Because our society is so geared towards. I mean you can't look at a TV ad that doesn't have. Someone's. Everyone's holding a glass of wine in it. That's just the way our society is. And we get it into a fighter pilot society or. Any type of. You know. Sports or. Military aspect. You're going to have people that are. That is their life. So. So I read this book. It allowed me to see a few things. First of all alcohol. You can't. You can sugarcoat it all you want but it's a poison. It's. Theirs. There's nothing about it that's good for you. I mean. When you say. Hey two glasses of wine a day are good for your heart health. Well fuck man. Maybe that maybe the accidents that were in those grapes. Were good for something but the amount of. Actual poison that you're pouring into your body. Isn't negating that in my mind. So. You see some grape. Yeah exactly. It was kind of like oh man. What else have I. I've been on that kick for a long time like what am I being lied about. Too about and. Am I lying to myself. So as I am I more and more to. Try and look at. What I can do to make myself better. This became one of those things. And I don't now. Now feel that. Going back to drinking. Would help my life in any way. It's. My life has continued to accelerate. At a crazy speed since I quit drinking. And. All the best ways. And I know that before I quit drinking I would hear people say that I'm like. Man. Something's wrong with that. That's that can't be. But it's the truth like. I'm. I'm a way. Better person now. Than I Was. Two years ago. And the fact that. I'm not constantly battling myself every Saturday or hangovers I'm not losing time. I think I'm. Faster. I can. Process faster than I used to. On a spiritual level I feel like I was. Robbing myself and kind of. Trapping myself by. Being drunk a few times a month a week whatever it was and. It. Just wasn't. It just. Wasn't the best thing for me. So I think. If I want. If I'm on this path to find out what it is to. Optimize myself as a human being and. Getting rid of alcohol was the start of it. And. It allowed. Everything to go better for me. My practice is better the practice we talked about earlier my meditations. Are Real. My interactions with people are real. I think there was plenty of time that I. Had. You know I I can see it now like. I would be bored and just show up in a bar. You know. Like. I don't know that there's a real. Interaction there. That's what I'm doing. So I've become more human. I listen to people a lot better. I enjoy it. It's I know it's not for everyone our society's definitely not even close. And I don't even preach that it's. Something that people should do. I just know that for me and. Even for Talia. I mean she and I talk about it all the time like how the hell did we spend 30 plus years of our lives. In a kind of fashion a. Zero sum game it was like. We're not. We're not getting better. Or. Maybe even getting worse and I guess as we get older you know. Mid 40s now said I. Think. I'm going to start to see my body break down more often and I think alcohol would only. Push that along at a faster rate. So. I know that I'm not. I know that I'm not immortal. I went to this body is going to break down regardless. But I just don't need to add up to it. And make it go at a faster rate right now. And I think that's a great way to put it. Welfare. I want to thank you for.

Justin Lee: 1:03:34

Taking time out of your busy schedule to talk with me. It means a lot. To have somebody like you to look up to. You've been a mentor of mine. Whether you've realized it or not. And I know a lot of other fighter pilots feel the same way. I wish you the best of luck. And. I look forward to reading your book someday.

Mat Casey: 1:03:55

I really appreciate you doing what you're doing here rather. It's good work and I. I think that you're. Here. Your thought process and. The way you're going about things is just right. I've always been a major fan of yours. And. I really think that what you're doing now. It's an eat for me to watch. I'm really excited to see you. Hi.

Speaker 1: 1:04:17

Guys. Thanks for listening. This has been the professionals playbook. My name is Justin Lee. If you like the content then please review it on iTunes subscribe and then share with a friend. Those three will go a long way towards helping out the podcast. See you guys next time.