These Holy Bones: Episode 8 - What's In Your Pack?

This episode is devoted to the pack on your back. My wife, Karen, speaks about her packing experiences with specific recommendations on what to take and what to leave home. What you carry in your pack while on the Camino is an essential part of the pilgrimage. Don't underestimate this aspect of your preparation. 

Transcript

  Hello and welcome to another episode of These Holy Bones, a podcast about the ancient pilgrimage to the Cathedral of Santiago where the bones of St. James are interred beneath the high altar. I'm your host Robert Nerney and tonight I'm speaking with my wife once again about packing for the Camino.

Okay, so I've gone nine times and each time I've gone packing has been a big challenge for me and I've actually haven't, I haven't mastered. Packing a bag for the Camino. That's pretty sad.  So over the course of 10 years, I'm still figuring out how to pack but my wife  In opposition to my, uh, my problems, she has packed some awesome backpacks for the Camino.

So, uh, Karen, welcome, and tonight, um, I'd like to talk to you about packing for the Camino. Which doesn't sound so important, but it's actually, once you're out on the road, you're like, Wow. My pack is everything. It's, you know, it's an appendage. It's my, you know, it's it's a, it's a friend. It's your, it's your, uh, it's where everything that you have is, uh, is housed.

So Karen, how many times have you packed for the Camino? Five.  And how many times have you gone on the Camino? Four. So why five? Because I can't remember which year it was but do you remember? Um, we lost our bags 2017. They got stuck in new york. They never made it to spain 2017 and so We didn't have backpacks.

So it was either go home or buy everything that you need or you think you need and including a new backpack  uh in order to be able to  Do the pilgrimage right? So we actually when we got to saint jean pied de port You There's a small specialty shop, um, and, uh, it has everything you need to walk the Camino.

It has shoes, it has packs, it has clothing, it has, uh, you know, um, the pilgrim's guide. It has trekking poles, it has everything you need. It's a very small shop, but, um, we went in there and they provided us with, uh, with a  replacement. And I know that you needed a few more things than I, because you actually needed shoes.

I was wearing my shoes. And, uh, so tell me about, let's not go there yet. We'll get there. What about, um, let me ask you  on your first commune in 2015, how did you know what to bring?  Well,  I did not try. I really knew what to bring, but I knew that I had to think about it, plan it and kind of imagine it. But the way I did it to prepare for the communal is basically.

I read books. I think I read five books. Can't remember what books they are, but they were very different pilgrims with different perspectives on what they thought was important. And sometimes they'd come right out and say, this is what you need, a particular thing. But sometimes they would just describe different situations.

And then I would think, well, what do I need in order to go on the Camino? Based on the experiences they were having and what did you pack that first Camino in 2015? What did you pack? Don't tell me that I know it don't give me an exhaustive list But I I remember I vaguely remember because I'm getting old that you had  quite a few items  I'm someone who doesn't even really do much with my hair.

I had all kinds of hair pieces. I had so many different types of clothes and including a bathrobe, even though we're seeing a  housecoat that I bought, brought on the Camino and never wore. I had a special outfit to bring home, I mean, to wear home on the plane. I had them all packed in these plastic seal tight  My backpack was so heavy that my shoulders were killing me like before we even got out of the train station in Madrid. 

You name it, I had it in my bag. I kept telling you, I don't know if you recall this, Don't pack it. Don't bring it. Even cut out the tags of your shirts and your pants. Cut out the tags of your clothes. But I kept throwing more and more things in the backpack. And if we got something that we thought, oh, this might be good on the, um, And then  you said, oh, no, I'm not gonna bring it.

It's gonna, it's gonna be too heavy. I would throw it in my backpack because I had enough space and I would throw it in my backpack.  Boy, did I regret that.  Okay, so that first year we went I know that our packs were pretty big I think I had like a 65 liter and you might have had it like a 54 liter. So they were big packs They were all spray which I've carried ever since Because I have bought new packs and I know that you bought a pack.

So, um,  tell me about the pack That you packed in 2017 that we lost. I mean, we eventually got it back. Once we got back home, we, you know, they were sent to, uh, the Providence, uh,  to the, um, airport in Warwick and we got them back. But what did you, um, what was your, uh, focus on that when you packed that pack?

Well, because the time before I had the backpack had been so heavy and, um, It made it really difficult to walk and my shoulders were killing me and I had to get rid of so much stuff. My whole goal that time was to pack as light as possible and to bring only what was absolutely essential and things that could double up and clothes that could mix and match.

I mean a lot less clothes. Um, I was very cautious about the kinds of clothes that I bought with the first year. I wasn't, I mean, I really, if they didn't feel really light to me, easy to dry, easy to roll up, really small, then I didn't want to take it. It had to be really light, really small, including even if I were going to like a book, only one, and it had to be really small, really light,  everything.

If I felt it and if it felt any kind of weight in my hand for that kind of an object, whatever it was.  Well, I remember I was amazed at that pack and it was definitely under 30 liters. I think it was like a 26 liter pack. It was so compact and I was amazed that you did what you did. Now, tell me this. So, um, Before we get into the very, the, the, uh,  into the minutiae, um,  how many times did you pack that before you left that year? 

I can't really remember to be honest, but I know that I started early. I didn't just do it just the night before. And I, I had everything that I thought I was going to bring and I can, even though it was not that much compared to the, the two years before when we had gone and I still was weeding out that particular night.

I can remember I had everything out on the table and I was like,  You need more space. I need, I need this to be lighter. And I just kept weeding out until I knew that it was going to work.  Because I remember you telling me several times that I should pack at least three times. So pack your bag, unpack it, pack it, unpack it, pack it.

Oh, that makes sense. Yeah. And you said that that was the method you used in 2017 to read it. Yeah. And I think too, you'll see a lot of times on videos, people will put all this stuff out very neat and organized. Um, maybe even categorize them out on a table or out on the floor, really get a good visual on it to get a good sense of what's going in that bag.

Because let's face it, it's not like a suitcase, you can't open it up and kind of see everything at once.  It's deep down in the bag. There are lots of different pockets. You'll even forget sometimes what you're carrying. Initially, it's a big deal, especially if you're not training with a weighted pack. But once you're on the Camino, you kind of get used to it or you get rid of things and realize you brought things that you didn't really need.

But initially when you start out, it can be very discouraging if you're really not ready to carry that pack long distances. It can be very discouraging and it really spoils the beauty of the trip.  Okay. And how heavy should a pack be? Um, I know that there, there, there are actually recommendations in guidebooks, but what do you think?

How heavy should it be? Well, I'm not positive of the, that first backpack that was really ridiculously heavy. I think it was definitely over 20 pounds. It could have even been closer to 30 pounds, which was way too heavy for me. Um, the pack, the second pack, the one we were talking about, that was really light and that was actually considered a day pack.

I don't remember the exact size, but I think you said you remembered the size, but  I think that was closer to 12 pounds and that was really, it was just more comfortable. It was just. It felt great. The only thing is that got lost and I ever got to carry it across Spain, but just leaving that day  For that, you know walk into the train station, you know traveling, you know Walking through places and just feeling so light and free compared to that day First backpack feeling so weighted down and disoriented really and that wasn't even when I was walking that was just Traveling to Spain, right?

Okay. Yes. I know that um some guidebooks say your pack shouldn't be should be about 10 percent of your body weight. But, um, I think the real challenge is to get it down as low as possible so that your body doesn't have to go through like a major adjustment on the, uh, on the road. And also a very big consideration is that the lighter the pack, the less weight on your feet.

And we all, many of us have gotten blisters because Of the pack. It's not so much the distance. Yes, that's part of it, but it's because you're carrying, you know, an extra X amount of weight on your back and it transfers to your feet. And I'm also, I don't have like the shoulder strength and the arm strength that you have.

So you don't deal with some of the problems that I deal. One of the Caminos, I don't remember which one it was. I remember walking for quite a few days and it was well into the trip, but my left shoulder was absolutely killing me to the point where I had to literally hang on to the strap and kind of.

Pull it up off my shoulder as I was walking and that was for a couple of days And that was like I said well into the trip It wasn't my heaviest backpack and it wasn't the lightest backpack, but it definitely started to get to me  Yes, i've met people I think in 2016  No, actually it was not 2016. But I we uh myself and uh, my brother in law met Uh a young man from italy and he was strong.

He was very very thin and he was struggling Uh with shoulder pain and I was thinking oh i've never had that and uh You You should never say that because this year I did have that. All right. So let's get into the essentials. Give me like.  I'm going on the Camino. I have no idea what I'm packing. Tell me the essentials that I need to put in that backpack.

Well, some things need to be separate. So like your money, your passports, anything that's really important like that, um, you want to keep right on you. So it's not in your backpack. But when you're thinking of clothing, um, you think about what's going to be warm, dry, comfortable, or what's going to be cool if you're walking in the, you know, um, The hot weather, but at night, even, um, if you've walked all day and you've been hot all day, it's going to typically cool down.

And if you're out and about at night, you're going to want something that's kind of cozy and keeps you warm and feeling comfortable. Um, but you can, you know, switch things along the way too. But initially you want to make sure you have what you need to stay comfortable, to stay, you know, Warm and dry and you know, deal with the temperatures.

Um, I think a hat is essential because no matter what you do with the sunscreen, you're still going to, that sun's going to be beating down on you. If you're walking in the summer, especially when you get to the message, it's relentless and the hats really do help. But I, I personally like to have a hat that has a strap, um, that hangs on the back of my head.

on my back can be clipped to the outside of my pack or can be squished up and put inside. So things like that, you get to think about like what is the thing that I need or the things that I need and how am I going to use them and where am I going to put them and is, is going to make sense. Um, so clothing from head to toe, including the socks, the, you know, the shoes that you wear at night, everything, everything counts.

You get to really think about that. You have enough, uh, you do get to wash your clothes. pretty much every night, especially if you get into the towns early and they usually are hung on the lines to dry and So you don't need the amount of clothes that you typically have at home You can just do with what are you wearing?

And then what's the change of clothes?  Sometimes people sleep in the clothes that they're gonna walk in the next day And sometimes people sleep in an alternate short and t shirts. So that's something you can kind of just work out. But then there are other things like I don't want to go without a book.

I definitely want to have something to read. Um, there are some things that I don't want to wait and worry about. I definitely need a little bit of sunscreen with me because most of the time I have long So, um, yeah. sleeves and long pants, but I don't want to get sunburned cause it's just going to ruin the trip for me.

Um, definitely need your toothbrush and toothpaste, but you don't need that much soap because usually especially if you, you know, stay in a private room or a hotel, you know, you Even if it's only once a week, you're going to get enough to kind of get you through, um, things like that. I don't know. What do you think?

What's essential? You know more than I do because you've been on the Camino more than me. I'm not sure if I know anything. Um, I would say an essential, uh, type of clothing would be wool. So wool socks, um, because wool wicks the moisture away. So cotton is not recommended.  So I'd stay away from anything that's cotton.

I mean, if you had cotton shorts, but it's best to have a blend polyester blend or, you know, like I said, wool, I bring wool shirts. I bring, um, even like my t shirt was, was essentially wool, maybe a hundred percent wool, my socks, like I said, a wool, my underwear is wool. Um, so that's, I think that's the best that not just, I think it's definitely one of the recommended, uh, materials to use.

And then you have blends. Like I said, this polyester blends with, you know, you have like different types of, uh, materials that they make now for, for trekking, for hiking. That's true too, because I remember the first year I just had a couple of shirts that I thought these will be perfect to hike in every day. 

They I thought they were until all of a sudden a week or so into it I had burns and blisters on the top of my shoulder right through the shirts,  right? So you to be careful with that. Um,  So yes. No, I agree with what you're saying about it's just you have to be super cognizant super conscious of Like the essentials like what do I need?

And I this is not a this is a very civilized hike  It's a through hike. I mean you're walking for 33 days, but it's not You Like I've said before in other podcasts, it's not the Appalachian Trail,  it's not the Pacific Coast Trail, this is, you know, you're going town to town, you're staying in an albergue, or a private room, or a hotel, um,  and you have, um, A chance to do your laundry.

And so if you can go with just two changes, what you wear and a change of clothing, I think that is  probably the best. Okay. Most of us in the West though, are used to, um, having many options. Um, and so if you can kind of like peer those options down and say, I can live with this, I think you'll be better off.

So really it's, you have to have the mindset and I'm not saying I've done this cause I haven't  that you, you know, you can leave things behind and you can, um, more than survive. You probably thrive with, with less. So it's almost like a paradox. It is a paradox. All right. So let me ask you, uh, how do you keep your things organized, clean and dry in your pack? 

When I'm on the Camino, every time we arrive to where we're going to stay for the night, I empty out my backpack completely. I take a look at what needs to be washed or hung to dry. Um, I, um, clean everything out, get rid of any garbage or things that I just don't need anymore and then just repack it all.

Um, the next day, if it's still a little damp, because we tend to get into an area, um, into an albergue late, uh, later than most other people. And sometimes we don't have access to the line. It's either not there or we're in a private room. And so they have, um, you know, they might have washing machines, but not dryers.

Um, so I'll hang them in the room. They don't dry as well inside. Um, so I'll just pin them to the outside of my backpack to dry, especially if it's sunny, Um, we've been fortunate most, most of the time it is and, um, you know, they'll dry in the backpack. Uh, so just a constant daily effort, but that's really all you're doing.

I always found it amazing that, yeah, we were walking a lot every day. Sure. It could be painful and tiring. Um, and then when we would get in, we would have to be concerned about our clothes and getting organized and things like that. But. No housework.  Just take care of the backpack. Let me ask you this. Uh, what does your pack come to symbolize while you're on the Camino?

Or is it, or is there, uh, is there a symbol that you can plug into? I don't know. For me, even sometimes I remember even that first backpack that was very heavy, but I did right away and continuously, I would continuously getting rid of things. So it was getting lighter, but I really felt comfortable in it even on those really hot days.

Um, and I was wearing the long pants and the, you know, long shirt and having the hat on  heavy backpack on my back. And it became a source of comfort for me because I knew that it had everything that I needed or wanted on the Camino. So for me, it was like kind of security, like a little bit of home. These are the things I brought with me that were important to me. 

Okay. That's interesting.  How about you? Well,  this past Camino, it was, you know, I was, so I was podcasting. So I had my computer. I had my, um,  H6 digital recorder, which I love and I had microphones and I had actually I got I sent one back home that it never got back home  so this was the heaviest pack I've ever carried and I'm 61 and The longer the further I walked the heavier it got so a lot of times you'll see that as you walk You know you get stronger, but actually this year the more I walked the weaker I got and I saw people Um You know, in the reverse who are struggling at the beginning and I really didn't struggle at the beginning and they were like superhuman by the time we get to Saria and I was, you know, in a pine box waving at people.

So, uh, this year was very different. I mean, the Lord just allowed me to suffer as I, as I grew closer to, as I walk closer to Santiago. So, um,  maybe it's my age. I definitely felt it, but it, the pack was about 24 pounds and that's way too heavy for me. I should be around 10  to 12 pounds really at my age. And uh, cause I'm, I, I felt it.

So I think the thing too is, um, I mean somewhere along the way, I know that you've probably heard it too, you know, buy less. take less and bring more cash with you. So don't spend your time buying everything you think you need for the community because you can get it over there. When you walk through the towns, there were supermarkets, there are pharmacies, there are shops.

You can typically get, even sometimes from other pilgrims, the things that you need when you need them. And typically, sometimes you do go without, but that's just part of life. But I think that, um, that's an important thing to consider too, because The unexpected happens and then you'll have more cash available for the unexpected.

Uh, if you are willing to carry a little bit less.  Is it better to overpack or under pack? Can you explain your answer? It sounds like we've already addressed this.  What do you, do you think? Well, I think the first year was important for me to over pack because they say you pack your FIAs well, what does that mean?

Well, it was really difficult for me to think about putting a backpack on and just heading out and being gone. I think it was six weeks that year. I'm not sure from my home where everything that I think I might need or want is there and available for me. So.  That was essential for me to overpack and then to let go of things on the Camino rather than let go of things on this end of it.

I just wasn't ready to. But because of the pain that I went through in my shoulders, et cetera, you know, from it and carrying that heavy backpack I realized and then getting rid of all kinds of things. I said no, I want it to be really light However, we lost it, you know, well because it was we didn't get it till we got home It got stuck in New York.

So I never made it to the Camino, but then there was another year I remember when we were going. And I remember thinking when we would go out at night, you know, after you go to the albergue or whatever room you're staying in that night,  and you take a shower and you get all cleaned up. And then you were just wearing pretty much the clothes that you would wear on a Camino.

So you very much felt like a pilgrim. So day in and day out to feel like a pilgrim. But I'm just going to go out around the town. I'm wearing my Crocs, so my feet feel really good, but then I'm wearing the same kind of clothes that I would wear during the day for a pilgrimage. And I thought that particular year, I just really wanted to be able to go out and feel like I had different kinds of clothes that were comfortable and colorful and, and more suited to going out at night as if I were a tourist rather than a pilgrim.

And so that year it was. It wasn't overpacked and it didn't underpack, but I, I just packed the things that emotionally I felt I needed that year. And I was really happy that I brought, um, those things for that. I know it might sound silly, but when my sister met us there once with her husband, her backpack was very heavy. 

She was not willing to let go of anything. But whenever I needed something,  that was the year that we didn't have our pack. Whenever I needed something for different reasons. She almost always had it in her pack and she said I don't care I'm carrying it up this mountain one time She said I want every single thing that's in here and she had brought tons of things  And so she was determined she really wanted those things and it also helped me out as well So I think that it could be that answer can sometimes change.

 Um, I think sometimes you just pack what's essential for that particular trip.  Did you ever pack something that you didn't use?  Oh, always. Like what? Sometimes even things along the way I'd take and then eventually I'd say, I'm going to throw this away. I'm not, I'm not using it at all. Like maybe extra soap from a hotel or something.

You always end up having more than you need. You think you need all this stuff. And then a lot of times you go, Oh my goodness, I haven't won this yet. Or I haven't, use this yet or didn't get to read that book or whatever it is, you know, um, and that's just like life too. We tend to go and buy things. We tend to, um, collect things.

People tend to give us things and sometimes I go, oh my goodness, get the dust off that. Let's probably put it to some good use or let's give it to goodwill, you know, because we have a lot of stuff. If you look around in life, we have a lot of stuff as Americans. I think that we don't use, we just kind of waste. 

Like St. Jerome said, the coat that hangs in your closet, was it St. Jerome? The coat that uh, hangs in your closet. St. John Chris system?  I thought it was St. Jerome, but it could be, um, the coat that hangs in your closet belongs to the poor. That sounds like St. John Chris system. But on the Camino, right? I mean, how many times have you given things to people that needed them?

on the Camino. And how many times have people given you things? Like right when you needed something, they give it to you. So, you know, that kind of is an interesting concept. Right. And when they weren't looking, I just took it and ran.  No, that's not true. But there are things that I'm very attached to that I probably need to wean myself off of in one,  one category would be books.

And, uh,  So I, I, you know, I've always brought books on the Camino, which is absurd because I can just read, um, the text on my phone,  but, uh, it's, I think there's something very, um, comforting in, in, uh, the hard copy of a book at least that's, you know, I'm 61, you're 62. And I think that might be our generation.

Yeah. And it's interesting though. The very first year when I packed the overpack and it was really, really heavy, I did not bring any books.  I can't even believe that. But I remember being on the Camino and being envious of you thinking, wow, he actually has the energy when we had a day off or we got into town to read and to write and to do all those things.

And I had nothing. I was completely spent by the walking and I was not interested in having a book. But after that, when I kind of knew what to expect with the walking all day, it was like I really looked forward to having some time just to sit and relax and read. So after that, bringing one, only one, I couldn't carry more than that.

Only one book, but definitely wanted to book every Camino after that. Well, each and every year that I've been on the Camino, I've left plenty of books in Spain. So it's a much more literate country  because of me. And so they can, they, Uh, Robert and Ernie for, well, another thing too, if you want to read a book and you want to have that tangible book in your hand and you don't speak or read Spanish, most of the books you're going to find in the bookstores in Spain, of course, are in Spanish.

So unless you want to be translating everything that you're reading, you really do need to look around. There's a little bookshop, uh, across from the cathedral and they do have English, English titles. That I have, uh, bought and then left, um, somewhere on the Camino. Okay, let me ask you this, um,  Did you ever regret leaving something at home?

So the opposite.  Did I ever regret leaving something at home?  I don't recall, but I do remember,  I can't remember which Camino it was, it may have been the first, but I remember it got really cold and I didn't have anything that was warm enough. It might have been when we lost, um, the backpacks in New York. 

But, um, but once we got to Pamplona, I was able to buy a fleece jacket and it was really comfortable. But because we had, you know, our luggage, our backpacks got lost, you know, on the airplane, um, and we had to start from scratch.  I remember that as soon as the weather got warm, even though I really liked the fleece jacket, I think I left it hanging in one of the rooms we were in.

Um, so you don't always throw things away. You give things away or you leave things hanging places, you know, or sometimes I set up on a bench, a couple of things like that. you know, that other people might be able to use. Well, I have to admit one of the biggest, um,  most often I've, I've left, I've gone, I've left the States with a bag, uh, with a, um, a sleeping bag, you know, from REI, maybe a hundred dollars sleeping bag.

I mean, they're not cheap and I've never returned.  with a sleeping bag. So I think I've left at least four bags, um, in different places, uh, while on the Camino. So that's one thing that people say you need a sleeping bag and then you get out there. You might need a sleeping bag for one or two nights, uh, during the, uh, The months of July and August. 

Um, but if you're staying in a hotel, you definitely don't need a sleeping bag. If you stay in private rooms, you definitely don't need a sleeping bag. It's just that maybe in an albergue,  if the windows were open, you know, I, but even then, and that happened this year. Uh, I, um, I just get up in the middle of the night and there's a big pile of blankets.

I just grabbed a blanket and I  threw it over me and I said to myself, I don't care if this is infested with, you know,  um, bedbugs. I am going to,  I'm not going to freeze tonight. So, There are definitely ways to get around not having a sleeping bag. Well, I've never bought a sleeping bag in August and we, we've gone four times and we have sometimes been in albergues and I have been in rooms sometimes that are hot, sometimes that are a little bit cool, but because you bring, usually bring layers and you usually have something that keeps you warm and comfortable.

Um, and Um, what I have gotten, it's very small and very lightweight is, what do they call them? The cocoons.  And so you're inside them. So it protects you from any, you know, um, bed bugs that might be on the bed, God forbid. Um, but it also keeps you warm and, um, you know, if you have, for me anyway, as long as my arms are covered, that's where I usually get cold.

Um, but. You can even bring a hat, you know, they say 25 percent of your heat escapes through your head or whatever. So there are definitely ways to manage that.  without buying a sleeping bag that takes up too much space and even the light ones are heavier than a cocoon. That's correct. All right. Uh, is it important to have extra space in your pack once you are out on the road?

Absolutely. You're going to need  room for water bottles, for food, for extra things that you might buy along the way, like at a pharmacy,  things that you absolutely need because you're, you're getting blisters and you need more. things for your blisters or for you, you get hurt or whatever. But a lot of times it is food.

If you're going to be walking several miles or maybe, what is it, one time, isn't there one spot that's like 11 miles long, no services, you're going to want to put extra water bottles, you're going to want to put extra food in your backpack. for those times. Uh, and so to have that extra space, it just is peace of mind.

You know, where am I going to put this? You can't want to carry it in your hands. Your hands are busy, usually with trekking poles. Um, so I think extra space in your backpack is essential.  Okay. I would agree. Also, um, if you are going on the Camino, the Francis or the Primitivo or the Norte, or if you're starting off in Portugal, where Switzerland or Belgium  You can always find packing lists online to give you a guide  As far as our insights into what you should take and You should always try to pare it down pare it down pare it down and like Karen said maybe pack and unpack Several times and each time you repack it try to  Get rid of a few more items because in the in the very end it simplifies it simplifies your life And it makes it more peaceful a more peaceful pilgrimage But I was I was interested that you just said about the packing list.

I completely forgot about that I always worked from a packing list But I always, on my packing list, I always list every possible thing that anybody could ever want on the Camino. And I did watch a lot of videos and I did look at those lists online and then I created my own and then we talked about it and I kept putting, adding to that list like crazy.

But then once you see everything out and then you say, okay, what's going to fit? What's going to be light? What do I really want? What's worth carrying?  It's important to ask. Well, like Thoreau says, or at least he said, simplify, simplify, simplify. All right. That was his motto, um, for his life. And he lives a very, uh, very simple life, very, uh, you know, to the, like down to the bare bone or bones.

Um, so  that's all I got. And, uh, But however, like if you're the type of person that you've gone on these other like really, you know, difficult trails and you've carried everything that you need to cook every ounce of food you're going to eat and there are no stores available and you're used to that and you want to bring a, you know, more stuff, um, then obviously like,  It's different for each person.

But for a lot of people, it ends up being a burden to carry too much. Because you're walking through cities,  and you don't need to do that. And to go into the stores, the local stores, the local cafes, the local pharmacies, and to meet the people is That's really, I think, part of the trip. Right. That's a big part of the trip.

And I think going forward, the question for me is not, um, you know, what I'm going to carry. It's who's going to carry me. I mean,  so Karen, thank you for your, uh, your insights into packing for the Camino. And of course, like always, Buen Camino. Buen Camino