These Holy Bones: Episode 10 - Pilgrims of Hope

In this episode, my pastor, Father Stephen Battey, speaks about the Jubilee Year, and how we are to make sense of it. He touches on the essence of pilgrimage and how a pilgrim can approach the trek. His insights are invaluable. Have a listen, and God bless you!

Transcript

Pilgrims of Hope - 2:25:25, 10.49 PM

[00:00:00] And welcome to another episode of These Holy Bones, a podcast about the ancient pilgrimage to the Cathedral of Santiago, where the bones of St. James the Apostle are interred beneath the high altar. I am your host, Robert Nerdy, and today our guest is my pastor, Fr. Stephen Batty, from St. John Paul II Parish in Pawtucket, Rhode Island.

Welcome, Father Steve. Much appreciated. Thank you, Robert. So as a way of introduction, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Be happy to, and I think one of the best ways to learn about someone is to learn how they pray. And so let's just begin with a little prayer to our Blessed Mother to help guide us in this conversation.

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. [00:01:00] Good and gracious God, we're so very grateful for your inspiration of Robert. To be able to undergo this great podcast, to be able to continue to share with the world insights into our spiritual life. We ask for the intercession of the Blessed Mother in a special way upon our conversation, as we look to her, in many ways, as a great model for preserving the sacred sites.

The Blessed Mother, with such care and devotion, had set apart The various different important moments of Jesus passion, especially as we're looking ahead to the Days of Lent, help us to continue to be inspired by the Blessed Mother's example, that we too may be inspired to continue to return back to these holy sites, perhaps for the first time, or again anew, to continue to know that our Lord is walking with us, guiding us at every step of the way, and helping us to come to a deeper appreciation of for our identities as beloved sons and daughters of God.

And we ask this through Christ, our [00:02:00] Lord. Amen. Thank you, Father. That's awesome. All right. So to start, um, I'd like to ask you about this Jubilee year. So we're in the midst of a Jubilee and millions of believers will make their way to Rome this year. I think millions have already made their way and they'll be traveling as pilgrims.

So what is a Jubilee year and why is it significant for Catholics? Definitely. That's a great question. Sometimes I think it can be helpful, even just to go back to the Old Testament understanding of the Jubilee year. So in the Old Testament, if you go through even the book of Leviticus, which is not something that we do all that often, uh, I joke with my school students sometimes that, you know, this is something that priests love to go through and dive into, but maybe for, you know, a school student it might not be something that would be all that exciting.

But if you really spend some time looking at the Book of Leviticus, you'll find within there a real sense of what a Jubilee year was all about in the Old Testament. In that sense that in the kind of ancient nation of Israel, there was a sense of wanting a time of rest, both for the land, so they would have, in different occasions, uh, Jubilee years, they would have a kind [00:03:00] of rest even of the land, where they wouldn't plant crops for a time.

And that sense of resting helped them, not only just in terms of the practical cultivation of the soil, But I think much more importantly, I think it speaks to that sense that God is inviting us to trust in him, even for our common daily bread and provisions. And when they did not cultivate the land for a year, I think it helped them to appreciate even God's, you know, continued support of them throughout their lives.

There's also occasions where it'd be a time of renewal for even just common families. It wasn't just for a specific group, but it was meant to be a more universal year of celebration and renewal. So, Um, in the old days, if a family had to sell their land, for example, for some economic hardships, in a great jubilee year, when they would celebrate it every 50 years, that land would go back to the ancestral family, you know, to kind of give them a new start and to say, you might have been really Under some tough times economically, but the land will be returned to you so that you have a fresh start.

That's beautiful. I think there's a real sense there and that can make a great connection [00:04:00] even for our jubilee year of hope In a moment, but the church has kind of taken up that tradition of the jubilee year But we do it a little more often we do it every 25 years instead of every 50 years and sometimes we even have little what they might call, like, extraordinary jubilee years.

So, like, the year of, uh, Great Mercy in 2016 would be kind of like an extraordinary year. But because it's 2025, we just have an ordinary one this year. Um, but even with God, everything is extraordinary, so We'll take it. Absolutely, absolutely. Um, so that's that sense, you know, of the, where we're getting this whole sense of like a Jubilee year from the Old Testament and how the church has kind of taken that up.

I love the connection. I love the fact that we're anchored deep in, uh, in history. And, uh, it's not something that's, uh, you know, that's just, uh, a one time deal. I love that. Absolutely. And so, um, Like I said, because it's a jubilee year, um, millions of people will be traveling to Rome as pilgrims and spending time there.

Uh, so how would you define pilgrimage generically? I would say a pilgrimage, I always go back to the sense of like the spiritual quality of it. Because we go on trips all the time. Sometimes we have to do it for [00:05:00] business, right? Which is sometimes not the most exciting, you know, we have to travel and we are pressured in terms of our time and everything.

Sometimes we'll travel for leisure. and it'll be a vacation. And that can be very restorative, but a vacation is not always spiritually driven. I think that's what sets a pilgrimage apart, is that it is something that is very spiritually motivated. And when you look at that whole sense of that spiritual motivation, it kind of gives you a sense of how you're entering into it, even the time that you might need to it for it.

Because a business trip is usually defined by a certain set of parameters and things, but a pilgrimage can maybe be shorter, or maybe even longer, depending on kind of what our spiritual needs. are at this particular moment in time. That's true. I remember when I was going on my maybe third or fourth, um, Camino, and I told a colleague he's like, oh, you want a vacation?

I'm like, no, no, no. It's not like that. He would not accept that as an answer. I'm like, no, it's a pilgrimage. It's not a vacation. He's like, ah, it's a vacation in Spain. Alright, forget it, I guess. And you can certainly work some of those things in there as you're traveling about. Oh, absolutely. [00:06:00]Absolutely.

There's no doubt. Alright, so are there aspects of a pilgrimage that are objectively applicable? Let me tell you, give you some background. So, During my different pilgrimages to the uh, around the Camino, I would encounter people who would say, you know, I'm not religious, I'm not spiritual, I'm here because, you know, I lost my job, and I wanted time to think.

I'm here because I'm training for a race. I'm here for X, Y, and Z. And I would always kind of like, be like, okay, but it is a pilgrimage, right? It is spiritual, so you are here, and um, Maybe you don't know it and they'll be like, no, so there'd be that, you know back and forth But I think there's something that's objective about a pilgrimage.

I may be entirely wrong. What do you think? Well, I think there is something to that Actually, one of the the most objective qualities actually that you can look at is even just the destinations that we choose so even if people have different motivations for the reason why they're undertaking it Usually, we have these specific holy sites, like the Holy Land, you know, that we're having a common pilgrimage to.

So the destination [00:07:00] is kind of like a universal quality that, you know, everybody can share. And the motivations behind that might change, but the destinations are the same. And I think, actually, this even can help overcome one of the hurdles. Because I think one of the challenges that sometimes people face, especially as they get older on in life, is they'll say to themselves, I would love to go to a pilgrimage, to undertake a pilgrimage.

But I'm older now, and I might not be able to walk, you know, at the distance, or they get worried that they might trip over cobblestones, or, or whatever else that might be, and I think there is even room, when you have that kind of universal quality of like a common destination, you see more and more, you're beginning to see even like virtual pilgrims, uh, uh, pilgrimages, beginning to form online, you can find these like, kind of virtual tours, But for these some of these holy sites, right?

And I think especially for people that might be retired But might be suffering from their health and can't physically make it I think there might be still room there for that common destination They could go in a virtual pilgrimage be able to enter into that renewal, even if they can't physically be there, right?

That's interesting. So maybe the destination no, I like that a lot because that definitely is that strikes a chord [00:08:00] Oftentimes, uh, you know, you're walking on the Camino Francés, you're walking 500 miles over the course of five weeks, four or five weeks. And, um, you meet people initially in the first few stages.

And, um, by the, you know, the latter part of the pilgrimage, they're so bent on getting to The Cathedral in Santiago, and uh, they may not know why, but, and they don't want Getting everything stamped as they're going along the way. All the stamps, you know, the credential is packed with stamps, and uh,that's really funny.

But that's a very good insight. Um, yeah, I like that. Okay, so, what about, is there a theme of this year's Jubilee? There is, yes. So, when we look at our Jubilee this year It's interesting because it includes that word pilgrimage as part of it, you know, kind of a we are being invited to be pilgrims of hope, which is unique when you look back at 2016, you know, the kind of extraordinary jubilee year was about mercy, but it didn't have that quality of pilgrimage included in it.

So this is not like every jubilee year is about pilgrimage. This is something that's kind of unique just to this year. But that whole sense of hope is something, I think, that [00:09:00] really speaks to Pope Francis motivations and his great hope to renew the Universal Church, and just, I think, the world to provide that hope as well.

But I think, even in that, when you look at that theme, I think we're being invited in many different ways to see how I think our whole life is a kind of journey. Like our whole life is meant to be a kind of pilgrimage in many ways and directing us to, you know, the hope that God has in store for us. So there's also kind of a common quality there.

It should be a kind of renewal, or it could be an occasion for someone to find themselves. But, I think the goal of every pilgrimage is for the people on the other side of it to come out hopeful. You know, you might be consoled, you might be challenged, depending on where you're at in your life. But, on the other side of it, the goal ought to be that there's a renewed hope for the future.

Yeah. Okay, that's a great insight. Um, that is beautiful. Um, Alright, I had a thought but I'm sold, it went on my head. That's okay, don't worry, it'll come back again. Don't beg on that one. The Holy Spirit won't inspire it again. Alright, so what about, um, what are some of the benefits of making a pilgrimage during a Jubilee year?

Are there, is it different than any other year? Yes, there are [00:10:00] certain indulgences that are added, and in fact, actually, even here in the Diocese of Providence, they just released about a four page document which speaks about the various different indulgences, um, that you would have throughout that year.

And, again, there's the certain indulgences which would aid a person on ultimately their Their salvation and their journey to heaven, you know, keeping with that pilgrimage theme But you know father can you clarify in the indulgence? What is that for? Absolutely. So an indulgence would be an opportunity for someone to do works of mercy to undertake certain spiritual practices Here in this world to be able to help reduce their time So, it's almost like a recognition of the actions that we've done, and an attempt to try, with the help of God's grace, we know that God is ultimately the one that forgives us our sins, but I think our Lord invites us into that work of trying to restore our actions.

So, the example I always use for our school students is, if I were to, you know, borrow a teacher's laptop and to drop that, and [00:11:00] break it, you know, there's a great motivation there for me to replace that laptop and even to make sure that the person's, you know, hard drive that all their lessons and there are so many different layers to the things that we do.

And I think Undertaking these spiritual times is, I think, a time to reflect upon, you know, the actions that we've done to help better motivate the acts of reparation that we have to try to help correct some of those past mistakes in that way. And I think that whole sense of an indulgence really gives us the freedom to think in those terms, right?

You know, to think about the fact that our actions, you know, there is a possibility of helping to make up for our past actions. In these indulgences, as we take them on, I think it can lead to our real reflection on the gravity of our actions and to try to help make up for them in the future. So, a point of clarity.

I go to confession to you. I'm absolved of my sins. Is there still reparation attached? To some of those sins, right? So that's why the priest will always assign a penance, you know, as an opportunity for the penitent to begin to Like, take on that work [00:12:00] of reparation, to begin that work of healing. It might be a prayer, it might be spending some time in front of the Blessed Sacrament.

Interestingly, sometimes you'll even hear the priest in the confessional will say, I'd like you to do this for your penance, and I'm also going to pray, you know, this hour of my evening prayer for you, as, you know, an additional sense of that penance. So sometimes the priest, even himself, will take on some of that reparation.

Wow. Never happened to me. Yeah, it's interesting. No, no, maybe, maybe your sins are just so not egregious enough to require that. That's beautiful. That's really awesome. But I think, yeah, that sense of looking for those, um, those indulgences, it's a desire to want to, you know, really begin to prepare ourselves.

for that ultimate destination, keeping again with that pilgrimage theme, we're keeping in mind that the ultimate destination that we're striving for is heaven. And if in the course of this jubilee year we can reflect on God's mercy in that way, run to him for that mercy, and begin to take part in these spiritual practices to help You know, speed along that journey to [00:13:00] heaven, please God.

Um, it's a great grace for us to take part in. Yeah. That's awesome. Um, I, I think the question came back to you, or the statement at least, you know, it's funny because the Camino, uh, or any pilgrimage is in a sense metaphorical, but it's also literal because we are pilgrims. And when you're on pilgrimage, you're pil It is not just a metaphor.

Mm-hmm. I mean, there's a metaphor that, you know, Santiago for, for, uh, the pilgrims on the way. Mm-hmm. That. is metaphorical in the sense that that's the heaven, you know what I mean? But it's also very literal. It concretizes that, you know, that's one thing I love about it, that it concretizes the reality of our pilgrimage here on earth, you know what I mean?

It becomes less ethereal and less up in the clouds, but to say like, we're really working to build the kingdom. Here, in this world, we're recognizing the sanctity of these sacred, these sacred places and spaces in that way, and there is a holiness that can be won and strove for even here, so it's a great place, yeah.

Now, on the opposite end of that question, are there any negatives associated with pilgrimage? Sure, yeah. And maybe this is just myself and my own priesthood at [00:14:00] this moment, but I think for me one of the drawbacks is just the difficulty of undertaking them in this current day and age. I think we're seeing more and more people, both in terms of perhaps your listeners, trying to raise a family, trying to provide for them.

The idea of taking two or three weeks off to go for an extended pilgrimage might not be possible in terms of their vacation or even just the ability to lose that funding to support their family. I think so many people are, are just struggling just to make ends meet. The idea of going away for two or three weeks might seem like it's beyond their, uh, ability to do so at this time.

I think for priests as well, I think priests would love to be able to go on pilgrimages with a more regular basis. And this is an interesting, I think, that, that priests every so often, at least here in the Diocese of Providence, uh, for your first ten years of priesthood, you're able to go on an extended sabbatical.

And then every eight years after that. However, we're finding that more and more [00:15:00] priests are either pushing that off, that ability to go on a sabbatical off, or they're just not taking them at all because it's so difficult to find coverage to be away from the parish for that long. So I think that's one of the drawbacks is that the threshold to perhaps go on a pilgrimage can sometimes seem like it's so difficult.  

It can be, yeah, seem daunting. I know that when I, on my pilgrimages, a lot of Europeans would be like, they were amazed that so many Americans would take the time, you know, to travel from the U. S. to Spain and spend the time and the money, um, so, and American pilgrims, uh, I think they tally about 12 percent of the pilgrims.

Interesting. Yeah. On the Camino. Okay, um. So, for a pilgrim traveling the Camino de Santiago, what recommendations would you give on how to prepare for it? That's a great question. I would say there's a couple of different, there's more remote, uh, preparation, which would be, I think, keeping with the spiritual life in general, first and foremost, being aware of God's presence with us.

You know, going back always, I love the passage from the road to Emmaus and God's [00:16:00]presence there among us. So, First and foremost, I would say, put yourself in that frame of mind to realize that Christ is walking along that pilgrim as with you. You know, it's not just yourself, or not just with a crowd of fellow pilgrims, but Christ is walking alongside you as well.

I would also, after recognizing that fact, I would also recommend perhaps going to the Sacrament of Reconciliation first, to make sure that you have that freedom to be able to enter into that work. I always use this example with my own glasses, which as I can look out there, they're getting a little dirty at the moment.

Um, there's a real sense that when we, you know, whether it's venial or mortal sin, when we get into this place, I think it really does cloud our spiritual vision in that way. So being able to go to the sacrament of reconciliation first really takes away some of those, uh, you know, anxieties, some of the weight that's on our consciences.

It really gives us freedom to be able to enter into it. The other thing that I would recommend, and this is a more universal bit of advice for retreats, but also for pilgrimages, is to [00:17:00] not be afraid of silence. You know, I think we tend to, especially as, you know, Americans, to fill every moment with some kind of noise.

You know, we get into the car, we put, uh, you know, something on, whether it's a podcast or the radio or something else. You know, when we're exercising, we're listening to music, when we're going about our day to day life, even common household tasks like folding our laundry, it seems like we're always trying to fill it with some kind of a noise.

And the danger there is that we're never really providing ourselves the freedom to be able to listen. to how God is speaking to us. So I would say on a pilgrimage like that, it can seem a little bit daunting to walk that length of distance, and maybe not the whole time you would do that, but I would recommend that certain stretches of it, particularly in the morning hours, maybe, um, certain times of the day, maybe you could set aside to not have any music, not be listening to anything, and just give yourself the freedom to listen.

That's very important. And I usually use the morning for the rosary and get through the entire rosary, you know, such a [00:18:00] beautiful, uh, and you're out oftentimes by yourself and it's just, it's conducive to, uh, It's a deep meditative prayer life, you know, um, but then when you hook up with people forget it, you know what I mean?

Exactly, you're chatting the whole way, you know. And maybe that could take some real, you know, planning there, where you just as a group, you make a common decision to say, you know, this first 30 minutes of our walk each day is going to be done in silence. We're going to give each other the freedom, uh, just to, to have a break from the conversation.

Because again, I think the other thing is too, that we always recognize that, God, you know, works in that way. He sends out the apostles two by two, so there is always a kind of quality there to the apostolic band of the church, that there is a community built into the life of the church. So, you know, we don't want to, you know, put ourselves in a place where we go on a pilgrimage with others.

And we say strict silence, all the entirety of it, because that also, you know, virtue is always found in the balance. So, times for silence, time for conversation, um, even times to interact with other pilgrims that might not be part of your group. Absolutely. By putting people in your life, so. Right, right. I think that's very important, especially if you're going on an extended walk.

Um, you have many opportunities to [00:19:00] dialogue with people and to just listen to them. And, uh, like we said before, I think. The people that I met, say, last summer, everyone was seeking something, you know, they definitely had a depth, um, that was expressed in so many ways, but the depth was about, they were seeking something.

They may not have known, you know, it's God or Jesus, you know, Jesus, but Definitely a search. Okay, so specifically, if you were going on pilgrimage and you were to spend five weeks on the road, what kind of prayer life do you think very specifically would you have? Like, give me a daily rundown. That's a great question.

I would say I'd be inclined to take away certain things that I would do typically. So like, for the most part, I try to incorporate spiritual reading into my life. You know, almost on a daily basis, uh, even if it's only 10 or 15 minutes every day, I do try to incorporate those kinds of things. But I think my motivation would be a little bit different on a pilgrimage.

I think, again, that whole sense of creating the space would be important. I would still bring the sacred scriptures, but I probably would not be trying to work through any particular gospel or trying to do a study. And [00:20:00] I also would not want to bring work with me as well, which can be difficult as a priest.

Uh, There's always a temptation to want, even in a spiritual sense on a retreat or a pilgrimage, to want to begin to think about maybe a future talk that you're going to give or something. But that's not the goal. You really want to have a real openness there as you're going through. But I would say certain different, like, practical, like, day, you know, hour by hour kinds of things.

I think the morning offering is something that's incredibly important, especially on a pilgrimage. Asking God. You know, what do you want to really show me today, particularly on this? And we get into that sense even when you have extended retreats, right? When you have, like, the Ignatian 30 day retreats.

There's a real sense there that as you're going through those 30 days, where you have to continually put yourself in the frame of mind on a daily basis. Otherwise, the days begin to blend together and you kind of lose, you know, that sense of how God is working. So, taking each day. Uniquely, it can be a help, and to have a morning offering and saying, Lord, you know, what do you want to really communicate to me today, in this moment?

Cultivating the spirit of gratitude each day for the work that [00:21:00] God is going to do. I would say, at least for me as a priest, I would probably, I would have to definitely continue praying the Liturgy of the Hours. But for a pilgrim, that might not be the case. They might not have something as set in stone.

So you may want to look at the daily readings for that day. Um, in that way, whether you're going to Mass, to prepare for Mass, as you're going through the pilgrim, uh, pilgrimage. Um, to give yourself a little bit more opportunity to really enter into those readings. than you might do in a typical day to day life.

Even if you go to daily Mass before work or something, there is still always a little bit of a rushed quality to it. So for a pilgrimage, I think I would really recommend, and I would do this as a priest, is to meditate on the readings for Mass, even before you go to Mass. To give that enough time to really percolate, and to really see, like, how God wants to speak to you, uh, particularly in that moment.

through these different readings. Connection to the Blessed Mother is incredibly important. As I mentioned in my opening prayer, I think there is a sense that the Blessed Mother kind of is a model for pilgrims. She so delicately [00:22:00] and beautifully had marked out the places where Jesus had suffered his passion.

She marked out the various different places where Jesus had fallen for the first and the second and the third time. And, you know, she took a a real care and concern to mark out those places to show us that it's good to keep these places holy. So the Blessed Mother must always be part of the pilgrimage, I would, I would argue.

And it could be the case that you're making a pilgrimage to some place like Lourdes or Fatima or wherever else it might be, but I think any pilgrimage that you go on should also include the Blessed Mother, the praying of the rosary. Maybe even the Angelus at 6 a. m., noon, 6 p. m. as a way of checking in with her throughout the day and recognize, uh, in that way, kind of marking out the different hours.

Um, an examination of conscience daily, perhaps at midday, would be a good thing. And to spiritualize in a more concrete way. Our day to day actions. You know, the food that you get when you're on a pilgrimage, sometimes you don't even know where it's coming from. You're going from place to place and, you know, you experience the [00:23:00] generosity of someone that is unexpected.

And then you end up stopping in, you meet a new family. But I think really having a real sense of gratitude there, I think is also very important. Because again, in our day to day life, you know, we might eat lunch, you know, at the office, at our desks, and we don't take the time to pray as we ought to. on a pilgrimage, even the simple things of life we should really pray for, um, in that way.

So, spiritualizing those different occasions in that way, um, can be very, very helpful. Um, and then, if you're on a particular pilgrimage, you know, again, bringing St. James into it, for example, um, you know, a saint that is associated with that pilgrimage that you're on. It can be very helpful as well. Right, and I never did, I never had a, um, a devotion to St.

James. And even now, after nine Caminos, I'm still developing that devotion to St. James. I didn't realize you were going on to that many times. I knew you were doing a couple times, but that's amazing. I know. There's something wrong with me. Um, what about if you were going on the, um, on the Camino and you were starting in the Pyrenees, which is southern France, and you were going to walk to the Cathedral in Santiago What are some of the items that you would carry in your, in your backpack?

What, maybe [00:24:00] five that you think are indispensable? I, yeah, that's a really good question. I would, my first thought for me would be my breviary, the Hours, the Sacred Scriptures, the Rosary. Um, I would say, um, maybe, that's a good question. I mean, I would think about that a little bit. Um, That's a really good question.

I would, I would be inclined to pack light. I I really would. That's a recommendation. Um, yeah, I think I, I'd be inclined to pack light. Karen's very good at that. She packs light. Yeah. I, I really think I, I would try to avoid any temptation for me to pack a lot of, like, spiritual reading books. Like I would, I would really try to keep things light, to be perfectly honest.

Uh, I would pack a journal, though. I think that would be absolutely essential. And do you think you'd write each day? I would. I really would, yeah. I think That's important. And I, cause, I, I always find this, that I, in my day to day priesthood, I don't keep a journal regularly. Um, but in the times that I do, when I go on a retreat, I always am grateful for it, and I always find myself wishing I had written more.

So I think a journal would be something that I would absolutely bring with me as well. Yeah, I'm not a great journaler. I mean, every year I bring one and I bring it back with like just a few pages written in. I'm like, what is going on? But I've never been. That's something that even as a writer, I would like to develop that.

You know, when I write, it's like a project. I don't like write every day. So I'd like to get into that habit. Um, what about, let's see. [00:25:00] I'm going to turn it over to you, Father. Do you have any questions that you would ask me as a I do, yeah. Quite a few. So, um, I think first and foremost, I would say, in terms of, like, recommending the ways in which you approach the Camino, so there are different starting points.

So maybe you can just speak a little bit about the different starting points and the lengths of that, because I think people sometimes, when I speak to parishioners, they have in their mind that it's a 30 day commitment, but that's not always the case. There are more manageable Um, routes that you could take.

So maybe you can just talk about maybe the different options for people if they were to want to start a pilgrimage, but maybe they didn't have as much time. Right. So the most popular is the Camino Francés. That's 500 miles starting, um, in the south of France and traversing, you know, most of Spain. But a lot of Europeans will do that in stages because they have vacation.

So they'll take two weeks, they'll start. And then the next year, they'll come back to the place where they finished. So that's possible. And because they're close to the Camino, I mean, I think it's more of, you know, that's something that's popular in Europe. Um, [00:26:00] I don't know if America would do that. You know, if you make the trip, you know, a lot of us say, well, you might as well walk it.

So that, um, that is most popular, I think, because it's the most supported. There are places to stay in every town, multiple places. There are private albergues. There are public albergues There are cafes along the, it's almost like you're like, are you kidding me? This place, this is crazy. And there are even a priest, I think from the 19th century.

He actually waymarked the entire pilgrimage, um, with the yellow arrows. Oh! So the entire country has, um, you know, waymarked. Yeah, guidance. Yeah, guidance. I mean, you're going west. Hmm. Only I can get lost. Uh, so that's the most popular. Um, uh, like I said, 500 miles would take most people about four and a half weeks.

Uh, 28 to 33 days. Then there's the Primitivo. Which is supposedly the, uh, the original, um, pilgrimage that Alphonse II, uh, took into Santiago. That is approximately two weeks. I did that one. And that, that's a little, I don't recommend that. It's, it's kind of rigorous. Um, and, uh, but it's, it's doable, of course, but it is rigorous.

It's kind of mountainous. And, um, then there's the, uh, it's the Portuguese Camino, which you can start in Lisbon and that would take again, five weeks, but you can also [00:27:00] start in Porto. So Porto is about a 12 day hike into Santiago. Much more reasonable. Yeah. Yes. If someone had time constraints. Yeah. So that's one that's, um, becoming more popular and the, the, uh, Portuguese has like A central, um, a coastal, and then actually one that's like right on the water.

My wife and I took that one. You are walking on, uh, board the boardwalk? Mm-hmm. From miles and miles. Um, that's not one of my favorites. My wife loves the ocean. I, I love, uh, the franes. Mm-hmm. I just first, so many reasons. And then there's an English, there's an English one that's actually, um, the essence is this.

Okay. In order to receive your Compostela, which is your, um, Certificate of Completion, and it's in Latin, it's from the church, you only have to walk 62. 5 miles. You only have to walk 100 kilometers, okay? So you can actually go to Spain, Start in Saria, which is about 117 miles, and get your Compostela. So you don't have to, you know what I mean?

That's all you have to do is walk 62. 5. Or a hundred kilometers if you're European. So, um, but then you meet people that started in Belgium, you know, they've walked a thousand miles, you've, you meet [00:28:00] people that have started in Switzerland. Like some, like I met a woman last year, she'd been walking for four months, you know, and, uh, so.

Yeah, there are lots of different ways to do it. And then supposedly I saw this, a video that said that, so you have to walk. This is what the, um, the rubric was. You had to walk continuously for a hundred kilometers. Now they're saying you can walk. A hundred kilometers total, so, you know what I mean? You could walk like the messa and then jump, um, a section and then walk, you know what I mean?

So you don't have to walk that. Oh, I see. Interesting. If there's a more challenging part of the, you could jump it. Interesting. Yeah, because one year we were close, my wife and I were close. Um, we were gonna get our compostela and then we, we had to, um, jump a section and then I said, we can't, not that she cares.

She's like, I don't want that anyway. But I was like getting a copella. Um, yeah, so I would recommend Saria is, and Saria is, you know, after the mountains, it's pretty flat and it's, uh. It's a part of the Camino Princesa gets very crowded because a lot of, um, church groups will, you know, with a bunch of kids will start there.

And, uh, sometimes it's challenging to get a place to sleep from Sarria to Santiago. Not really, but It's good advice though, yeah, to plan ahead in certain times. Are there certain times a year that are more busy than others, or Well, July 25th is the Feast of St. James. So, um, that day in particular is not only His feast day, but [00:29:00] it's a regional holiday in San Felicia.

So, uh, Santiago is very, very crowded at that time. It's good to know. Yeah. Um, I think, uh, July and August might be the high points. There's actually, they show you on a graph, you know, but definitely this summer. You have a lot of teachers to go in the summer. You know, so if you want to go earlier, I recommend almost September is a good time to go.

September, October. You know, those are good times. That's great. Yeah. And that variety of the different kind of launching points, I think, again, brings me now in terms of my thoughts to the fact that you have gone through it nine times. And so, would you say that, you know, on those different occasions, that God has, you know, reinforced maybe a common theme, or have you gotten totally different insights?

All the various different Camino trips that you've gone on is a little bit of both like It's definitely a little bit of both and uh, yeah, that's a great question. That's something I'd have to ponder, but it's definitely like this past Camino, um, I started in, uh, St. Jean P Port. I started the Pyrenees and um, I had plenty of time.

It was kind of a strange, I had plenty of time to, to finish and I thought, oh, I'm definitely gonna finish again. Finish in the [00:30:00] sense of I'm gonna do 500 miles mm-hmm . Which is almost something I think I, you know, as far as pride goes. I think I'm dealing with that. Mm. And um. Yeah, the end though, I didn't complete it because I was injured and then my mother in law passed away, you know, she was, she was, you know, basically dying.

So I had to come home early and, uh, the Lord was like, just, I think for me, it was like, don't worry about what you want. Okay. I took you here. Let me just give you the gifts that I want to give you. But it's definitely. You know, um, it's hard to really pinpoint, but I think he's given me, like in 2016, the first time we went was 2015, and we didn't finish.

And I said to my wife when we got back, I said, Cameron, I have to go back and finish. She said, good luck, you're going on your own. And so when I went back in 2016, I had prepped for it pretty well. And, um, and I told my wife, I'm going to write a book. You know, there's so many books written on it, but non fiction, it's going to be And I was journaling away, and then I started doing more and more miles, and I stopped journaling.

And near the very end of the Camino, I had this thought, that instead of a piece of non fiction, I'll write a piece of fiction in 2016. [00:31:00] And it came to me, you know, the main character came to me, the title of the book came to me. I was like, oh, that's pretty cool. And so I started writing it and so I wrote it over the course of 2016 to 2017.

I, I wrote it. I wrote part of it and I wrote 25, 000 words. Then I lost the file. And, but I had, I didn't, I forgot this, but I had printed out the uh, 25, 000 words. A year later, I found that copy of it. Yeah. So I said, okay, Lord. That's Saint Anthony trying to tell you something. So I finally finished it. It took me, I don't know how many years, and it's sitting up there on the front cabin.

So, um, I think one, um, real gift the Lord has given me is that, um, and even this podcast, you know, is all about the Camino. So he's allowed me to, you know, um, be creative with it in a certain way. And, uh, that's one of the gifts. But that's a great question. You know, it's, it's, for me, it's, I'd have to ponder that.

It's hard to distinguish, you know. Maybe this will be a little easier. In terms of, uh, you know, you've had a great love for the Camino. Has it kind of sparked an interest in you in going to any other pilgrim, uh, sites? Going to the Holy Land, or going elsewhere throughout the world? Right. Is there any, like, do you have a list of places that you would like to go to?

Yeah, I'm definitely not a list person, like, so that's not, but, you know, in [00:32:00] 2017 My wife and I started in Lourdes, and then we walked to Camino, part of it, like 300 miles, and then we went to Fatima. And that was an incredible gift. It was the 100th anniversary of the apparitions in Fatima. So, uh, it was, and we were at a mass with 200, 000 people.

Oh my goodness. It was unbelievable. It was just such a gift. It's hard to even like, you know. Put that into words, yeah. Oh, it really is. Um, but this year, uh, 2025, if I sell a few houses, I would like to go to Rome. To, uh, to the Mass for a Frassati, and I would like to go, so that's August 3rd, and so August 4th I'd like to fly to Madrid.

I'd like to get to the birthplace of St. Dominic, which is north of Segovia. That would be beautiful, yeah.And then I'd like to walk from Burgos to León, what's my favorite spot, my favorite portion is the Meseta. It's a, just a plateau of wheat. Hmm. And as, um, as people of the Eucharist, it's a great meditation on the Eucharist.

And then from there I would jump a section, a pretty difficult section, go to Saria. I owe, um, I owe the hospital there, 217 Euro. I didn't realize that last [00:33:00] summer I got hurt. And these two Italian friends, like, we take you to the hospital. Mm. Like, no, no, no, you go to the hospital. So we go to the hospital and mm-hmm

Alessandro, one of my friends was speaking in Spanish to the, uh, the clerk and she's like, no, he's a pilgrim. It's free. I'm like, are you sure? 'cause I was gonna pay there. No, no, it's free. You're a pilgrim. And then the, then weeks later, I get this bill. I'm like, what's going on? I have to go back and pay that bill.

Um, and then from, sorry, I'd go into, uh, Santiago and hopefully I would, uh, interview a bunch of pilgrims. That would be a great, great grace. Yeah. You know, to be able to have Yeah, that would be a great grace, yeah. To have those episodes that, as part of this podcast. Yeah. Um, how about this? Maybe perhaps some of your listeners have been listening to this and are feeling inspired.

I think there's one group that I kind of always have in my mind in terms of the time, and so I help with formation for seminarians and you know, they're on the campuses of Providence College and these are students that have the summer months. that are essentially free, they have a lot of time. Is there anything that maybe you could think of to try to, if you were to try to give a pitch for, you know, for them to make the best use of their summer months and to [00:34:00] potentially go even at a younger age as they're going through college and taking advantage of the time.

Can you think of maybe just a little couple of words of inspiration that might inspire them to want to take part in this. Instead of just sitting around on the couch all day during the summer months. Well it's funny you say that because in 2016 I met these two gentlemen from California, Pepperdine And they had a group of 10 students and it was actually for some credits in, um, Spanish.

They, so they had a journal every day and, uh, they had to, I, I'm not sure, you know, but they were doing six credits for, um, a Spanish course. And, uh, I was like, this is beautiful. You know, and then last summer I met some seminarians, you know, and I was telling you about them. And, uh, I was like, oh, this is awesome.

I think every seminarian that could do it should do it, you know, because it gives you that. That I think that depth of prayer and also it connects you it's so anachronistic like you're out in the middle of nowhere You feel like you're from the 13th century You know, I mean like this is crazy the fact that it exists is crazy Like it's it blows my mind that you can do this and and walk in the steps of millions and millions of pilgrims St.

Francis did this pilgrimage John Paul [00:35:00] II did part of it and Charlemagne supposedly didn't so all of these people Um, I would say it's definitely something, I've met a lot of younger pilgrims, I think it would give your life, um, somewhat of a foundation in, um, as far as in depth of prayer, you know, it just gives you that sense of how rich and how beautiful our faith is, you know, and it's not something that's just, uh, You know, it's just a part of the modern age.

It goes back 2, 000 years and like you said about the Old Testament It still gives you a depth and an appreciation I think for other people too, you know people you meet tons of Europeans You know Germans and lots of actually even um, I've met a lot of South Koreans, you know, uh, yes. I don't know. That's not really a pitch, but I mean I highly recommend it and I think it I think it really is a good pitch because when you look at these, you know younger Students that are going through college and they're kind of at that point when you look at all this statistics now of how they are really suffering from a lot of anxiety and a lot of isolation at ever increasing You know, [00:36:00] rates.

I think to hear that opportunity to be, come connected with others, even total strangers, you know, you can become friends and form friendships along this because of that common destination and that common, uh, intention of wanting to have an encounter with our Lord, I think it really does speak to them, and I think it's part of the genius or part of the wisdom of this kind of, you know, pilgrim year of, uh, hope, you know, that we are striving to be pilgrims of hope.

Amen. And there are just so many people in the world that are, are in desperate need of that. Um, so, right. That's true. They say a day with a pilgrim is like, a week, A week with a pilgrim is like a month. And it's amazing because, uh, Alessandro and, uh, he's, that gentleman I met from, uh, from Italy, um, I was his Camino father.

Mm-hmm . And by the end of our walk I was like, it seems like I've known him forever. Mm-hmm . You know, and he's, uh, from southern Italy. So he was like, antithetically. Uh, you know, uh, it was the antithesis of, of who I am as far as being, you know, mostly Irish and stuff. He was so like, just open with his emotions and he'd give you this giant hug.

I'm like, I'm Irish people. We don't hug people. We don't hug people. But it was just a beautiful thing. And he'd be like, [00:37:00] I love you, Robin. I love you. I'm like, I love you too. Oh, that hurt. You know what I mean? So different. And, uh, so wonderful. Um, and moments, I'll tell you with these guys where people are crying and like, you know, you're talking about.

You know, people that you, uh, that you love and you miss, and it's just beautiful, like it's just the, the humanity was so, it's just so rich, you know, and so, um, so real, you know, and authentic. Absolutely. It really does speak, I think, to, you know, you had mentioned that St. John Paul II himself had gone on it, and I had used this quote even just this past weekend in my homily.

The whole sense that St. John Paul II is always inviting us. in his own way to not be afraid, you know, to not be settled with mediocrity, to put out into the deep, you know, to lower our nets for a catch. I think there's a real invitation, I think, here to really consider this sense of pilgrimage as a way to really go out into the deep and to, you know, ask our Lord for that freedom from any anxiety or any fears that might get in the way of This, this great spiritual experience.

So, and it's a real, like, um, it levels the playing field. So you might be walking next to a dentist or a lawyer or a [00:38:00] doctor and, uh, but you're just pilgrims, you know, and, uh, it's, it's an amazing, um, it's just an amazing reality that it's just. Like, I can't get enough of it, you know. Last year I said, that's it, I'm done.

And I came home a few weeks later, Well, maybe I'll go for a few weeks. You've got the itch again. Someone asked me, we were in Santiago and we met this gentleman, my wife and I, I forget what year, and he said, Oh, so is this your first Camino? And she goes, No, it's his eighth. And he goes, Oh, you have a problem.

I said, whatever. It's a holy problem, it's a good problem. What are you going to do? Excellent, excellent. Well, I appreciate your time, Father. This was a wonderful conversation, and hopefully, you know, um, the younger crowd does, uh, if they need someone to, um, talk to, I'm always here. Definitely. I think you've been a great inspiration for all persons, you know, to really reconsider this whole sense of pilgrimages, this whole great sense of the joy of these jubilee years, especially the one that we're undertaking now.

There is great hope, I think, and, uh, you know, we may, we always undertake our lives, uh, as a great pilgrimage of hope, so. Awesome, and always, Buen [00:39:00] Camino. Great, thank you. That was awesome. Excellent. The timing was perfect, too. Was it just an hour? It was an hour. That's amazing. That's amazing.  

That's good. [00:40:00]