These Holy Bones: Episode 11 - Pace and Price

In this episode, my wife Karen and I discuss a daily approach to walking the Camino along with an approach to spending money on the road. Your pace is a very important aspect of the pilgrimage and should be considered before you take your first step. And of course you should consider a basic budget that can act as a guide for your spending on your walk to Santiago. 

Transcript

Pace and Price 

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of These Holy Bones, a podcast about the ancient pilgrimage to the Cathedral of Santiago, where the bones of St. James are interred beneath the high altar. I'm your host, Robert Nerney, and tonight I'm speaking with my wife once again about the Camino, and in particular about.

How to approach the Camino financially and then also how to approach the Camino as far as day to day. And how do you, you know, how do you approach the walk? So I wanna start off with a quote from an author. His name is Frederick Gross, GROS. And the title of the book is A Philosophy of Walking. And I love the way he begins this book.

And, uh, he just [00:01:00] starts simply by saying, walking is not a sport. So Karen, welcome. How would you, do you think that's applicable to the, uh, the Camino de Santiago? Well, walking is not a sport. I think that, I hope that it's applicable because if I were to go on the Camino again, it's kind of a relief. The word relief comes to my mind because I'm not a sports-minded person.

Um, I don't really engage in sports myself and. I'm not really interested in sports, but I am interested in walking because I find that you can set your own pace. It's very peaceful, it's relaxing. It doesn't feel competitive. Once it gets competitive, I lose interest. I. And how would it get competitive? How would a pilgrimage in, um, in all of its, uh, beauty, how would it become competitive?

What do you mean by that? Well, if people are talking about how fast they went, how long it took them, how many miles they're covering, whether or not they're gonna do two stages in one, um, sometimes people make comments when you arrive in late. You know, uh, maybe it took you a longer [00:02:00] time, rather than just accepting that everyone has their own Camino and everyone goes at their own pace.

To me, I like to be very private about my life and everything that I'm thinking and, and doing. And so when I arrive, I just kind of wanna sneak in, settle in for the day, and not make a big deal about, you know. How long it took us or how far we walked or um, what time we're getting up in the morning and how far we're going the next day.

To me, that's all pressure. But the act of walking, even if it's a long walk, is slow enough that it's peaceful, it's reflective, and it's a really a meeting place with God. It's really a time. For just you to figure out a lot of things that are going on in your life and to kinda listen to the spirit. And if it becomes a sport, it takes all that joy away from me anyway.

Right, right. And that reminds me of, uh, well first of all, I wanna say back in 2015 on our first Camino, um, we arrived in Vals, uh, late or later than almost everyone, or maybe everyone and, uh, everyone. [00:03:00] So I think we were happy to, uh, I remember that. Actually, I think he went to bed early that night. We were, yeah, pretty much.

Went in, took a shower, got into bed, went to sleep. Okay. And, um, the next morning I remember getting up and getting ready and yeah, I think our boots were left downstairs, uh, on a rack maybe. And, uh, we were putting on our boots on our hiking shoes. And this young woman was saying, you gotta hurry up. Just in general.

I mean, she was talking to, I think her group, um. And then she turned to us and, and mentioned how you had to get to the next town before other people in order to get a place to sleep. And I remember being very freaked out and, and like, I was like, it just put, uh, it was like pressure, like I have to walk x number of miles at a fast pace to get to, to the next town.

And that wasn't the case. And that's never been the case. 'cause there's always some place to sleep, you know? And if you can't find a, a place to sleep, you're gonna sleep in some alcove you may be in front of the church. So there's always some [00:04:00] place to put your head, you know what I mean? That's at least my experiences and I've read plenty of books.

I just finished a book by a young man from, uh, from England and um, and he always found a place to stay, you know what I mean? Even though ese were crowded. He slept on the floor a number of nights in Alberta's tucked inside his sleeping bag. But I remember that that feeling of like. Of pressure, of like competition and I didn't like it at all.

No, I do remember what you're talking about as well, and, um, I, that doesn't make me feel comfortable either. I do remember that there was a girl in that group that needed something for her blister. So I don't know if I had a bandaid, if I had comped, I had something and so I was offering it to her. So she had to obviously take off her boot and put it on before she went.

And I remember feeling badly for her that she was with a group that she felt pressured, she had to keep up with. Uh, so I do remember that, but I don't remember, um, the feeling that. Oh, we have to hurry in order to get a place. It was a big concern. It was always a concern. Uh, at least in the beginning if we didn't have [00:05:00] reservations, um, you know, where are we gonna stop?

Where are we gonna sleep? And that kind of thing. But not enough to make me wanna hurry and lose the whole spirit of the camino. For me, the pace, the slow pace that fits your need at the moment, um, for whatever you know. Whatever you feel like going the, the pace you feel like going at and, um, what, how often you feel like stopping and what you are thinking about or praying about.

Sometimes you just need that time, um, without any outside pressure, but I was always concerned about where we were gonna sleep at night because I did want a bed with a pillow. I did wanna be comfortable. I didn't wanna have to sleep on the floor, or God forbid, in the streets. But not enough to change my pace.

Right. And that never did happen. That never happened. No. Correct. Right. And going back to the quote from this book, walking is not a, you know, walking is not a sport. And, um, I'd like to just substitute the word pilgrimage is not a sport, and that's, that's my perspective on it. [00:06:00] Now, some people may, um. They argue and say, you know, they may say, well, if someone wants to approach it like that, you know, that's their, uh, prerogative.

But sport, um, implicitly, uh, has the, a a a sense of competition. Like if, if you're, you know, competing, if you're in a sport, you're competing to win and there's no winning on the Camino, you know what I mean? There's like winning. No, I don't think that's part of it, you know, and, uh, I think that's why that.

Quote from this book is so important, I think, to at least think about before you step out the door, you know, and, uh, and approach the, the Camino. Um, you were gonna say something? Well, is also for a sport, wouldn't you think about technique and skill and those kind of things as well. And I don't think you need to think about those things or talk about things like that when you're walking on the Camino.

I, and I think it. It's beyond that. It's not like that at all. And I think too, um, if you're thinking of sports, when you're thinking of teams, even if you're walking with a group, um, you don't have to be a team player in the physical sense. Like if you're a team player on the Camino, if you wanted to even use that term, it would be more about letting people walk at their own pace, letting people do their own Camino, letting people, um.

Figure [00:07:00] it out on their own. Uh, be supportive. Yes, of course. Um, and that whole idea of the Camino provides and everything like that is, is great, but it really is such an individual experience, even if you're with a group, I find. So to me, the word sport just is, um, I would leave a bad taste in my mouth, you know, the sense of competition, of needing to be on a team, of having to have certain techniques, certain skills, and to me it is just.

Be free to walk and, and, and let, let it just happen, you know, not that it's happening to you, but that you're just a part of something and trying to figure things out. Right. Right. You participate, you know, and, and yeah. And so, and you accept what is, uh, what comes your way in a lot of ways, you know, because Exactly.

We believe it, you know, it's divine providence. Um, also, well, I think the majority of, um, pilgrim's. That we've met and that I've met, um, for the most part are walking. They're not competing. Um, but I have in the past met a few who were on a certain, maybe strict timetable. And I remember meeting that one woman you and I met the, [00:08:00] she was probably in her twenties and she was from England and she was doing it in two weeks.

Right. I remember. And then last year, um. 2024, I met two gentlemen, separate. They weren't together and one was doing 40 miles a day. He was gonna do it in two weeks, and he was training for an ultra marathon. And then a second gentleman was also training for an ultra marathon, which was like, I don't know, a hundred miles.

And he was walking and jogging and, um. Very pleasant people, but not the normal pilgrim. And then for me, not the normal, um, perspective on pilgrimage. Um, but then again, uh, you know, people could argue like, who am I to impose anything on anyone else? I'm just saying that I think, um, the pilgrimage, I think we can all benefit from the idea that.

Maybe we should, uh, contemplate the fact that it's not a competition. You know, that walking is not a sport and pilgrimage is not a sport. I think that that would be [00:09:00] helpful, um, for all of us to think about. Yeah, I agree. Well, especially for me, someone who, if I'm walking by myself, sometimes I'll increase my pace.

Um, because it feels good and I don't feel stressed about it, but if I'm walking with other people, I. Get extremely stressed. If I feel like I have to keep up with them. It just loses a lot for me. So I tend to shy away from walking with groups, uh, and so that I can just go my own pace. I think too, like you have the goal of getting to Santiago and you might have a certain date or deadline, and that's understandable, especially if you're away from home and you know, you have certain, you know, timeframes you're dealing with and of, um, of course the cost of it.

Two, whether or not you can stay an extra week or things like that just to be able to get there. So you do have that ultimate goal, but it's not, um, a race and it's not, um, each day it isn't like, you know, um, how fast did you go? Can you go faster tomorrow? It, it's [00:10:00] doesn't tend to be like that, even if people are walking faster because that's what they feel comfortable at.

I don't think that that's what they're really learning. Uh, and when you hear people talk when you're on the Camino, they're talking about lots of other things, not about their own personal physical achievements. And I think that makes the Camino different than, um, walking the Camino different than a sport typically would be.

Right. And we are a mixed bag, so I know that even myself sometimes, um, you know, if I, if I've walked a certain amount of miles in a particular day, I might feel some type of, uh, you know. Um. Maybe some pride in that, and it's just, I'm like, what is going on with me? Well, I think another thing too, we have to remember, not, not that it's a, a huge number, but I mean, we've seen, and I've seen myself even on my limited, I mean, I've only gone on four Caminos, uh, compared to you.

But I've still seen people being pushed in wheelchairs, um, families that bring babies on their backs, you know, or in wagons or on bikes. And so you have people traveling in so many different ways, whatever fits them at [00:11:00] the time. Um, and so if you, and also sometimes we've seen people yourself included on crutches or somebody limping along.

So how could that be a sport? Uh, it's more like a personal journey and what's. You know, baggage are you carrying? What suffering do you have? You know, what are you dealing with? And uh, you know, how does God reveal things to you through that? Um, more so than a sport where we're focused on ourselves and our own bodies and our capabilities physically, rather than, you know, just trying to have that meaning place with God.

And also I think that. For me, you know, when I'm walking at a very, um, human pace, I have a, uh, better chance of, uh, really, um, praying at a deeper level, you know what I mean? If I'm not huffing and puffing and, uh, I can, you know, see my rosary or see the rosary and really give it, um, the attention that it deserves.

So I think because, you know, walking is. What is what we're made for? Like we, we ambulate, right? We, we walk and um, and the pace is like no more than two and a half to three miles an hour. [00:12:00] Actually for me, three miles an hour is a little quick. So it's a little under three miles an hour for me. And that's for me, a human pace.

It's not, you know, I'm not trying to rush to get somewhere and, uh, and if I am, I'm probably not praying. And so, and also you're not appreciating what you know, all the beauty that's around you, the people that you meet, uh, the different towns that you go through. You're not taking the time. It's harder to take the time, at least to really experience the Camino fully, uh, slowing down, uh, and walking compared to riding in a car or on a train or on a bus, um, slowing down really changes your perspective.

So. I think that's something to appreciate about the Camino. For me, if I had to try to rush walking, it would lose a lot of that for me. Alright. Let's change gears and let's talk about finances. Okay. So. Even though we've been married for 36 years, we still kind of approach finances from two different perspectives.

Although we've, you know, come to, I think, appreciate, um, who we are. Uh, I know that we, we definitely, um, approach finances [00:13:00] from two different perspectives. What do you think, how take that concept of finance and how would you apply that to the Camino? Well, obviously anyone who's going on the Camino needs to think about, you know, what's your budget?

You know, well, how much can do you have to spend on the total Camino, all your traveling, the food, the lodging, uh, and unexpected, um, you know, things such as needing things from a pharmacy or having to go to a, an emergency or a. Um, a doctor, emergency room or a doctor, something like that. Um, so there, there are things that do come up.

Uh, if your flight changes at the end too, that might be, you know, a different expense. So you do have to take a look at that as part of your planning for the Camino. Um, but one thing that I did here, um, years ago is, you know. Buy less to bring so that you'll have more cash available. So if you have a certain amount of money that's uh, allotted for your pilgrimage, then don't think, well, I'm gonna buy all these things that I think I'm going to need.

You may not ever end up needing them. So save money on that [00:14:00] end of it, because most things that you think you'll need or that you will need will most likely be able to be purchased on the Camino and it will be lighter and easier to travel. So that's one thing. Don't think that you need to spend a lot before you go.

And then when you're on the Camino, you can see, like I know we've stayed in El Buress before, but then we've also stayed in private rooms. And if I had to choose because I'm such a private person, I would prefer the private room. Well, there's a difference in maybe about 10 Euro for El Buress, correct? Am I right on that or no?

Right. About 10. Okay. 10 to 12 and maybe about 50 or more or less for a private room. And so that's a big discrepancy. So each day I am already saying I wanna spend about 40 extra Euro a day because I would prefer the private room. So. Right away, even though I tend to not spend money as, as much and as I would like to try to save money, um, right away, I'm saying, but my need for privacy, especially because the Camino can be so long and drawn out and day after day, night after night to [00:15:00] be, um, in, in El Burge with a lot of other people around.

That's too many people around. For me, that's too much socializing. I prefer solitude, so. There's an expense for me, but pe uh, people are different. And I think that you can find the things that, um, that you can say, well, I could go without this, but I can't go without that and make decisions based on that.

Or say, well, I need a private room, maybe just two or three times a week, and that will get me through on the crowded El ADEs possibly. Right. So just take me through, say, like, let's just talk, talk about like a typical day. I know there's no such thing as typical on the Camino or in life, but um, say barring.

A any type of like medical concern? Give me a typical day and, and how you would spend your money. Well, mostly you're walking and so because you're doing so much walking, especially in the warmer weather, you're going to need water. But a lot of times you can fill what your water bottles up at fountains.

Um. Or, uh, you know, get tap water from wherever you're staying. Uh, but you will have to buy some buy water along the way. And that's an essential, obviously. Um, and then it really just depends on [00:16:00] how you feel comfortable. Like for me, I would rather get up and walk, have something, maybe just a little, a little snack or something, even if that.

Maybe some water and then walk for maybe one to two hours before having breakfast and then continue on. And I would like to stop in the middle of the day to have some kind of a lunch. It doesn't have to be a lot, but it just would need to be, you know, something like a small salad maybe. They usually have the salads with tuna.

Um, and then, um, that was always worked for me. But then when we get into town now, I'm not so hungry 'cause I already had a breakfast, I've had a lunch and um, so now I have a few hours to kinda get myself situated to get ready for the next day, maybe do laundry, and then go out to dinner. And even though at home, you know.

In my daily life, I prefer to have an early dinner on the Camino. It just makes sense. You're in Europe to have a little bit later. I can't really go as late as nine or 10. I would prefer to be in bed a little bit early just because I find the Camino exhausting at times. So, um, but still to have a [00:17:00] dinner as late as I possibly can to feel comfortable because that kind of fuels you the next day.

So the next morning when you're waking up and if you're walking one to two hours without eating, um, then. You, you just, you feel satisfied because you had that other meal in you last night? Not, and later. Alright, so the expenditures for that day, how much for the food? Well, I mean, I, I would take a look at it and say, you know, gee, uh, if I'm gonna want only one coffee, maybe I'll just have it as a break.

Or if we're gonna stop a few times instead of having everything at once. Because then sometimes you feel uncomfortable. You're walking, you're too full. So like maybe if you're gonna stop, have a coffee or a juice and then another time stop and maybe get the tortilla so you don't have to stop just once and have your breakfast and then stop once and have your lunch.

You can kind of split things up. Um. So I would say just, you don't have to stuff yourself, you just have to fuel yourself so you don't have to sit down. And it's not like going out to dinner at a big, fancy restaurant. [00:18:00] So I think that the food, um, pretty much is appropriately priced. And just make sure that if you're gonna buy it, that you're gonna to eat it.

And if you, or if you're gonna take it with you that you're, when you, if you stop at a supermarket. That if you're gonna buy it, that it's gonna last and be pretty hardy in your backpack. Like for example, I wouldn't buy a couple of chocolate barss because they'd probably melt, but I remember one year we did get dried apricots and walnuts and I like those things, but some people might not like those things, so that's different.

But it wouldn't be my go-to snack at home. But it was really good because it was so hardy and it lasted long because you weren't apt to buy, eat more walnuts or eat more apricots and you kind of. Just needed to feel satisfied. So that's another thing. 'cause I think I remember another time we got cookies and it was inexpensive, but we ate those cookies a lot faster than we did the apricots and the walnuts and uh, it didn't fuel us as well.

So I think decisions like that make a big difference because, uh, you'll end up spending more if you're buying things. Oh, I'm gonna eat the cookies 'cause they're kind of fun to eat. Um, and you obviously you need to do [00:19:00] those kind of things once in a while too, emotionally. But I think making purchases of things that you like, that you know, will really fuel you, that you'll eat just what you need, um, will go further and go along the way.

And it, it does add up by the end of the Camino, I think. Right, right. So I wanna get specific though. I know that, um, for the most part, for dinner, uh, oftentimes places have the pilgrims meal for like 12 euro between nine and 12 euro. And that's usually, um. It is usually a bottle of wine or a bottle of water, and then it's like chicken and fries, pork and fries, um, or a salad with the, uh, the tuna.

And then they have some type of dessert, a melon, or they have, uh, yogurt, like plain yogurt that I really don't like that, uh, that too, I don't like that too much. So that was never my choice. And then for lunch, if we back it, back it up to lunch again, about 10 euro. And then breakfast around 10 euros. So right there you're talking about 35 euro, you know, for, for food.

And that's probably realistic. But like you said, sometimes you buy things from a market and you save it. And that might replace a meal that might [00:20:00] replace your, your breakfast or your, your lunch. So you can probably get away if you're really on a tight budget with, with 20 to 30 euro a day for food. Right.

And I would think too, but you to be safe because it is your fuel. So if you're like me and you think I'd really rather have the private room than the El Burge, if it means that you're going to go less on the food, uh, and be hungry every day, you just have to be careful because, um. It would probably be better to say, spend a little bit more on food so that you're not hungry, you're not dragging.

'cause you don't wanna get, um, so depleted. You need to be able to, because it's your fuel, so you have to pay for it. It's important to keep moving. Uh, and then maybe just say, switch up and say, even though I don't prefer the ADEs, you know, once in a while, sleep in the El Burges and save a little bit of extra money like that.

If financing your trip, um, your pilgrimage is a concern. Right. Okay. Very good. Uh, the book that I just finished on [00:21:00] the Camino, um, I think the gentleman was, his goal was 16 Euro a day. And, uh, that is not a lot of money. 16 euro a day. When was this? What year? No, I think he did it. I, I think the book was published in 2019.

So. It wasn't that long ago. So 16 euro a day. If you're thinking berges in food, how much minimum would be at Berge? What's the minimum on that? Well, the minimum would be a donation. Right? So when, when the, the TiVo, so when he was, uh, uh, when he could avail himself to, to such a, a place, he would give like five euro.

Right. But how often is that really? Yeah, that's, I think that's So what's the lowest intense charge? I think. A little under 10 euro, but usually 10 to 12 euro. So really then, okay, so save it at eight. Right? Or even if it were five, that still only leaves him with 11 euro a day. That means he can't even get a pilgrims meal.

Right. I think at uh, early on he found that he wasn't eating enough. Okay. So he actually. Um, and he was a young man in, in good shape, and he was a soccer, soccer player. So, uh, I think early on [00:22:00] he's like, oh, I better, I start eating something more nutritious. So what did he do? Did he, uh, increase the amount he spent each day?

I think he did, but he didn't, he didn't make a big deal about it in the, in the text. Okay. So, I mean, uh, when he did spend more than he hoped to spend, he would mention that. So it was definitely, you know, maybe it was unrealistic. Yeah. So I think that if, if a budget is a concern for you, uh, if it's gonna make or break your Camino, yes, I can go on it, I have enough, or no, I can't go, I don't have enough.

Um, I think you should probably have a range. Like this is the lowest, um, amount, um, that I'm willing to, to try it on. But he has my buffer. Like, if I need, this is the money I can access to make it reasonable for myself so that I'm not. Walking and being hungry day after day, and then it just takes a lot of the, the joy out of the Camino and it just increases the worry and concern that you might have.

Along the way. I remember in 2016 there was a woman, it was her eighth Camino and she was from [00:23:00] Spain, and she held up one morning a 20 Euro note, and she was like, this is what I live on. And so she was doing, um, the Camino, I think on a total of 800 Euro. Which is very minimal. 2020 euro a day is outta control.

No, absolutely. And I think too, you know, there are sometimes we're called in life to fast and sometimes it's time for feasting and you know, the list goes on. So I think too, if people are called to go on the Camino and they have a small budget or they choose to have a, um, a small budget for it, I think that that, um, there's something they're being called to.

You know, even whether or not they believe as we do in, um, in Jesus and, um, the idea of pilgrimage as being a real spiritual journey, even if they're not, even if their perspective is different, I think that it's going to make a huge difference on how they, um, perceive the whole experience, um, than in, than if you have, you know.

Plenty of extra money or you have a way to pay for it if, if you're charging it or whatever. And so for you, money is not a concern, uh, because it's [00:24:00] just one more thing to trust God about. Right. One more thing to be concerned about. Right. And I think that's, uh, I. The essence of, uh, how to approach the Camino is that God will provide if you trust.

And to get to that point of trust is not an easy path. It's not an easy, um, journey to get to the point where you trust that God will take care of your needs, especially if he's calling you to do something. You know, it's interesting you just said, um, that if, I think I heard you say, um, that if that God will pro, the God will provide.

If you trust, well, I found most of the time in the Camino for things like if we were getting late and we weren't sure where we were gonna stay to trust God, that he was gonna find us a place to stay or numerous other things. I found that I usually, it was usually my lack of trust and then seeing in the end what God did provide that helped me to learn that.

Trusting and learning to trust on the Camino was a huge, um, part of it for me, that God was really calling me to that because I [00:25:00] wouldn't trust and then he would still provide anyway. Right. Right. And I think that, uh, yeah, that's the life lesson, right? For most of us, you know, walking the path hopefully to, you know, the path toward Jesus Christ.

I think the, uh, the lesson or the, you know, is, is to, um. To learn to trust God in totality. Not just like bits and pieces, but because we're so broken, that's exactly what we do. We're like, okay, God. Like, like, like making a deal with, uh, you know, uh, who knows, like, okay, God, I, okay, I'll trust you here, but not here.

My, you know, not over there. And, you know, so I think that, uh, again, it's just, uh, it's, it's like that call to, uh, integrity, to be integral, to, to be like a whole person. Um, and in order to be a whole person, we have to be a whole person in Christ, right? And so how do you get there? I think you get there. Um.

And fits and starts, and hopefully we do get there. Well, that excellent episode. Two very interesting topics. Okay. As finances, and then also how to approach walking the Camino. I appreciate it. Any last words? Oh, thanks for having [00:26:00] me on the show. Well, we do live together. We might as well talk about the Camino.

Alright, as always, [00:27:00] Karen.