These Holy Bones: Episode 12 - The Packing List

In this episode, my wife Karen and I work through a packing list identifying what we deem necessary for the pilgrimage. Are most of these items essential? If I had to listen to only one podcast before leaving for the Camino, it would be "The Packing List."

Transcript

The Packing List 

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of These Holy Bones, a podcast about the ancient pilgrimage to the Cathedral of Santiago, where the bones of St. James are interred beneath the high altar. I'm your host, Robert Nerdy, and today's episode I think is probably one of the most important, um, episodes to listen to if you really, if you're going on the Camino.

So today I'm gonna speak with my wife about packing for the Camino, and it's not like a one time, um, effort. I think that once we get into it, we can discuss how we've packed in the past and how I plan on packing for this summer's pilgrimage. I. Before I start, I wanna read, uh, from my forthcoming novel.

It's called A Walk With Wilson Burrows. Uh, it's still in a [00:01:00] revision stage and I hope to put it out, uh, both on Audible and also in, uh, hard copy. I wanna read, uh, from a section early on in the, um, in the novel. Uh, I have four major characters that I'm dealing with. Um, my main character, my protagonist is Shorty Lopez.

And the story, um, is about shorty and two other juveniles walking the Camino to commute their sentences. So they're out shopping for, um, all of their hiking necessities and, um, before they buy their backpack, they have a discussion with the gentleman at the, uh, sporting goods store. And this is how it goes.

The lighter you pack, the better off you'll be as you start to pile on the miles. What do you suggest I ask. Go with a 34 liter pack. It's plenty. By the time the man had chosen a pack for me, stuffed it with pillows to give it some weight and help me shoulder it, Danny had [00:02:00] wanted over to join the conversation.

There's no way that pack is gonna be big enough for a 33 day hike. Danny said, you can't look at the Francis as a 33 day hike. The man said to Danny, you need to pack enough for a three day cycle. You'll have a chance to do your laundry at every Alberta. What about food in a tent? Danny asked. You're not going to have a have to carry a lot of food 'cause you can buy it on the road.

There are cafes every few miles who told you to take a tent? Danny shrugged his big shoulders. I just took it for granted. Listen, you'll be staying in Alberta's hostels with bunk beds and showers. This is not a hike for the woods like the Appalachian Trail. It's a very civilized whitey and Wilson saunt it up to us and shook their heads at the pack on my back.

That thing is way too small. What he said, I hope you're not thinking of buying that. Wilson said, there's no way you'll fit everything. The clerk squinted and shook his [00:03:00] head. Who have you guys been talking to? He asked. You've got it all wrong. It's about packing light. I've done a lot of research and most people carry at least a 56 liter pack.

Wilson said, listen, I, I'll sell you whatever you want, but I'm telling you from my own experiences on the Camino that the less you take, the better off you'll be. On my first Camino, I packed almost 30 pounds and ended up leaving things all over Spain. I came home with less than 15 pounds in my pack. I didn't need the gear that I thought was gonna be so essential.

You know what they say? You pack your fears. Well, I'd rather pack my fears than be caught out in the middle of Spain with an empty pack on my back, wolfs and said. That's not gonna happen. Sid, the man. And if you do find yourself in need of something, there are stores and pharmacies in almost every town you walk through.

Better safe than sorry Danny. He said I'd rather have what I need and not have to go looking for it in a foreign country, the man shook his head. [00:04:00] You could actually do it with a day pack. I've met people who are carrying a change of clothing and a water bottle. Yeah. We call those people homeless, what he said.

Right. I think that's a good introduction because, um, I often over pack and my wife, um, she's pretty good at packing. And, uh, so we're going to, what, what we're gonna do today is I'm gonna read from John Bri Lee's Camino, uh, Francis's guidebook. Okay. It's probably the, uh. Probably the, the definitive guidebook.

I mean, it's packed with so much information, but he does have a checklist, a packing checklist. So what we're gonna do is I'm gonna read the checklist and as we go through the items, we're gonna discuss their, uh, if they're necessary or not. Okay. How you doing, Karen? Good. How are you? Good. What'd you think about the novel?

I love it. Okay. I hope the readers love it too. Alright, so he starts off, [00:05:00] um, with clothing. Okay. So I'm just gonna go through it. I'm not gonna skip around and we'll see, um, how the discussion goes. Okay. The first item is a hat. What do you think, Karen? Absolutely. I have fair skin. Uh, sunglasses just don't cut it.

Sunscreen ends up needing to be reapplied all day long. We tend to walk long hours. We tend to walk through the middle of the day. We don't tend to avoid that. Um, and no matter how waterproof it is, it's gonna sweat off. So a hat, um, is essential. Uh, I do like to get the fresh air and the breeze early in the morning, you know, so a hat that easily hooks onto you or can be rolled up and put in your pack.

But for me, a hat with a wide brim is essential, right? I would emphasize the wide brim. Also, last summer I wore a baseball cap. It seemed to suffice, but in the past I've had a stetson. I've had, you know, um, hats from RREI that have a wide brim, but I would definitely, um, suggest a wide brim, [00:06:00] covers your ears as well, and also your neck.

If you don't have anything around your neck, it's just, uh, a cautionary measure, no matter even, I mean, I have light skin, so I'm always, um, cautious of that, but I think everybody needs to be, the sun is strong. The only problem with my Stetson, it's made of wool. So when it rained out and it only rained a few times, um, that year that I wore it.

You know, it gets, it gets wet and it doesn't dry quickly. No one hat time, I don't remember what kind of a hat it was, but it wasn't one that rolled up easily and it looked so ridiculous and I had to wear it 'cause that was my hat. So I had to wear it for a while before I get another one. And um, I felt foolish every day walking in it.

So you really want a hat that's gonna work for you. You look great though. Alright. Alright. Sunglasses. What do you think? Absolutely. One, um, year I brought a very inexpensive pair of sunglasses that someone had given me. I broke them early on. And so you were gracious enough to let me use your sunglasses, uh, [00:07:00] before you were able to buy another pair for yourself.

Uh, I was so relieved because for me, um, when I'm out in the sun, I just prefer to have the, it's just a, a, a feeling of comfort from my comfort from my eyes because my skin is so Sophia and my eyes are very sensitive to light. And I remember that we went, we were in, um, Esella es and uh, we went into an optical shop and we're looking at sunglasses, or I was looking at, I picked out this, uh, nice pair of Raybans and I went to the counter and I thought, she said 85 Euro.

I'm like, wow, that's expensive, but okay, we need sunglasses and raybans are expensive, so it's not that bad. It was 285 euro and I'd already felt in my heart that I committed to it, so we bought. So that was an expensive purchase. Well, I do remember really liking those sunglasses. And even when we got home, even though they had been yours on the Camino, you did give them to me.

So I enjoyed them for several years after that. Well, that's good. It was worth it then. Alright, now it says shirts. I think these are, okay, go ahead. What do you think about shirts? How many would you take? [00:08:00] And then what material? Well, shorts are interesting because, I mean, do you like short sleeve? Do you like no sleeve?

Do you like long sleeve? And I think too, for me, again, I'm always conscientious of my skin, uh, you know, being out in the sun all day long. So, and I do like to layer, I like to have a tank top and then sometimes a short tee. But then the long sleeve definitely, but lightweight and we had that has already has the sun protection in it.

UV 50. Thank you. Um, because then I don't have to worry about the sunscreen. I know that I'm, you know, safe. And the first year that we went out I thought, oh, these shirts I have are great. No worries. And I ended up getting sunburn right through my shirt 'cause it didn't have that. UV 50. Thank you. Sounds like a band.

It's a rock band from, uh, Ireland. Alright. Um, yes, I agree. So I have a few shirts that I plan on taking this summer. One is a long sleeve, um, UV 50, and I'll get a lot of mileage out of that. And I like to wear long sleeve because I don't really like [00:09:00] to put sunscreen on. It's just greasy and I just don't like it.

But I, I'll do it. Uh, I also have fair skin. Um, and then I'll probably have, um, these holy bone shirt made, so I can wear that. Um, but it will also be one of those, uh, it won't be cotton. So I would avoid cotton. Cotton only after you walk, because cotton tends to retain the, the water. Okay. The moisture. And what you want is something that wicks away the moisture, like wool.

Wool is ideal. And then also these, um, you know, these whatever high tech shirts that they're selling now, and you do want to make sure that they're quick drying because, um, sometimes you wanna rinse it out. Uh, and you don't really have time if you get into a town late, hanging on a line one day. I remember we were very lucky we were able to do all laundry at a place that we had gone pretty late, but it was so windy that our clothes dried within an hour.

But that's very unusual. Right. So, and how many, how many, [00:10:00] um, shirts would you take? Well, I think more is better than less. As long as they're like small, thin, you wanna be able to layer too, because sometimes you do get chilly on the Camino if it's been a rain, um, like a rainy day and it's, and you're cool.

I can remember being very cold and taking my scarf and wrapping around, wrapping it around me because I was so cold. So layers are good too. Okay. I agree. Uh, this summer I, I'm not really sure, but I probably lean toward four shirts. But one thing I always do is I dress. In an outfit that I can hike in, so when I get off the plane, if my luggage doesn't come through, I can hike.

Now, some people don't do that. They, they wear sandals, they do this, they do that. But I always wear an outfit that I can just, you know, hike in because we have had problems with our package, our packs in the right, and for me too. When you get into town and you're, um, walking around at night seeing different things, maybe going to mass having dinner, I do like to feel like I'm in a shirt other than a Camino shirt.

That's just me. I've learned that over the times that I've gone. All right, the [00:11:00] next thing on his list is a travel vest. Now, I don't wear a travel vest. You know, I would, when I think travel vest, I think photographer, you know, with multiple pockets. I mean, it's not a bad thing because you do have to carry certain things, but I would, I wouldn't think to take a travel vest unless I was doing a documentary.

Well, I can understand though, why some people might, like, sometimes I've gotten pants where they have a lot of pockets. So instead of having everything in your backpack and always feeling like you have to take it off to get what you need, you have easy access. So it depends if you're the type of person who's gonna reapply sunscreen on your face a lot, or, um, you need lips, um, stuff for you, you know, if they're chapped or if they're blistered.

Um, if you want easy access to certain things at a small, like safety pins or um, uh, any kind of first aid stuff for your feet, then I think, or if it's, um. You know, I could see where some of the pockets on a vest like that might even be great for water bottles. 'cause sometimes it's hard to reach. So it [00:12:00] really, I think if you're walking a lot at home, you know, go with a pack, try things out, see what's comfortable.

But first start with what you already have. Don't go out and buy too much. You might not even want it. And some of the stuff is expensive. One year I remember getting a shirt that was about a hundred dollars and for me that was really expensive. But that shirt lasted a long time and it did have the UV 50 in it and it was, um, warm when I was cold.

And it, um, kept me, uh, it dried quickly and it was good in the rain. It was good in the sun. It was just good all around and it was comfortable. And I could even sleep in it if I had to. So I think you have to look at, uh, how versatile is it, right. And shop around. Right? Just don't pick out the first thing you see.

Alright, next on his list, he says jacket and then he has, um, he qualifies it as waterproof and breathable now, so. I do take a rain jacket, uh, versus a poncho. And I like it because ponchos tend to be a little unwieldy, like they flapping in the wind. And I know some [00:13:00] people, um, I mean that they're good, but my jacket is waterproof actually.

It's, yeah, it's waterproof and it's breathable, but that does not mean that when it's raining and I wear this, that I don't sweat because it's impossible not to. Alright. So I, I don't think there's any foolproof, um, method of keeping yourself dry in the rain because of the water or the sweat, but, um, I definitely, personally, if someone asks me rain jacket, you know, or poncho, I, I'd rather the rain jacket.

What about you? Well, I definitely go with the poncho every time. I mean, at home I would definitely wear a raincoat, um, if I'm going out. But usually, I mean, if I'm going out for a walk, a long walk and it's, I warm weather, but it's raining, I'm not gonna wear a traditional raincoat that. 'cause for me, they're not breathable.

They make me sweat. I'm not gonna wear a rain poncho around here, but on the Camino, I would definitely have a rain poncho. And I want one that has a hood [00:14:00] and I want one that has all the snaps on the side so that when I start to get too hot, then I can just snap it back. So now I get the breeze and I get the refreshing rain.

Then when I feel like I'm getting a little chilly, I put it down again. It also, there are times on the Camino where you don't have access to restrooms and so if you're behind only a few trees and you feel a little bit uncomfortable, you can um, just use your rain poncho as a coverup. You know? So I think that's really good too.

Both, it's like a move, a movable port porta potty. Well, if you wanna put it that way, I just do. But also I think that, um. For me, I know that I always had a cover for my pack. Um, but if you don't have a rain cover for your pack, then the poncho acts as that. So that's a good thing as well. Uh, it's also good if there's really no way to sit in the ground is a little bit wet or muddy, you know, sometimes even in the morning for, it's like the, [00:15:00] just the morning due, um, you could sit down on it.

Um, so I think for me, a poncho is essential. Okay. Alright, so moving on. We have, um, underpants. Now, this is, I'm not being facetious, but I wear a wool and, uh, because again, it, um, they, they tend to stay relatively dry and they're very durable and they're very comfortable. It's not like when you say wool, people are like, oh, I'm gonna be, it's these, uh, it's not like that.

It's not like you're wearing, um, a sheep, you know, or a herd of sheep. They're, they're very comfortable. And, uh, and so that's what I take. I take only, only wool. All right. Shorts. How many pairs of shorts would you take or, I only wear pants 'cause I only wear pants in the sun. I'm more comfortable in pants as well.

Um, so, but underneath my pants I do wear what looks like shorts, even though it's my underwear. Okay, okay. Uh, well I [00:16:00] usually bring three piers of shorts, three piers. And, um, and in the past I've, I've worn like hiking pants on the plane, but as soon as I can ditch them, I usually ditch them. I don't usually carry, so that's one, one of my problems is that I ditch things and people that a lot of people don't like to ditch things, but I'm really good at ditching things.

And, um, I've left I think four brand new sleeping bags in Spain. So if you see them, uh, you can return 'em to me. What about raincoats? Have you ever left raincoats? I've left a nice raincoat. I don't know why I did that. So that's why you. Uh, when you were saying it earlier that you would definitely recommend a raincoat?

I was thinking to myself, I'm pretty sure he gave away a raincoat before 2016. I gave it away. I don't know why. I think I was, uh, I was with a group of gentlemen and I was struggling to keep up. I was thinking, how can I, what, what else can I get rid of? And then right after I got rid of that, we had this rainy day and I wore like this hideous little plastic thing that was, that basically melted on my skin.

But that's a whole nother movie. Alright. [00:17:00] Um, so trousers or pants for me. Yeah. But then I like to bring something that's more comfortable to sleep in, not necessarily for hiking more, like, for just getting around a nice comfortable pair pants that they can sleep in. And also feel like, you know, I'm, when I'm going out at night that I'm not identified as a pilgrim.

I know that some people don't mind that they love it. I just like to feel real comfortable, uh, and not. Not like a pilgrim at I, I guess that's why. I don't know why I feel that way. Okay, so one thing about um, pants, he calls 'em trousers. Um, is that I do like to have a peer to wear a church. 'cause I think it's respectful.

But I mean, you know, the, the church churches definitely, um, welcome the pilgrims in their pilgrim garb. Um, but like I said, I, I don't usually keep 'em that long by the time time I hit the trail, I've ditched them somewhere. So who knows. Um, handkerchief, yes, I usually do. And I usually like [00:18:00] to keep that in one of my pockets.

I usually have pants that have a lot of pockets and, um, I usually like to have easy access to it because when I start to sweat, I like to wipe that sweat away from my face. It just drives me crazy if it's dripping on my face. Okay. I don't tend to bring one. And then in this section, socks, socks are very important.

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. How many PR do you take? Well, um, it's not necessarily the, the amount of socks for me, it's more the kind of socks that I bring. I definitely like to bring different socks for at night. I definitely like to wear socks at night. When I'm walking around. I like to wear the toe socks, but that are like lower than the ankle, just almost like a slip on pair of pads, but they're with the, um, with the toes.

'cause it makes me feel really comfortable at the end of the day if I'm getting any blisters or sore toes or feet. So that's essential for me. And I find that if I bring two or three p sometimes I'm just going with the same one each day. Your feet at night, you've [00:19:00] already showered, you're clean, you're going out and around and you're, then, you're right back to the, or wherever you're staying.

And I think that, um, those socks tend to stay relatively clean and they're easy to wash out and just, you know, pin to your pack to dry during the day if it's a sunny day. But the first community we went on, I remember. Reading and thinking that I needed two socks, a liner, and then some more socks over that.

And then my feet just felt so constricted in the boot and I didn't like the feeling. So I realized after that that I would prefer a thinner socks and then just really pay attention to my feet. Like put, um, I don't even know what the product is, but it's not traditional Vaseline. It's like, um, a fake product that's like Vaseline, but it's not really fake, I guess it's just a healthier product.

And, um, if I use that on my feet and if I walk slowly and I carry a lighter pack, my feet usually don't tend to blister. Um, so I just have to kind of be really paying attention to my feet. But the [00:20:00] number of socks, yeah, obviously you need to bring more than like two, three Ps typically. Yeah, so I definitely wear one on the plane and then I pack two to three and all of the socks that I take are again, wool.

So that's, uh, you know, um, smart wool. And I don't wear a liner either. I have had problems with, uh, with blisters, so who knows. Okay, so the next category is shoes. So it says boots, mountain boots, you know, like hiking boots, um shoes, walking shoes, and then sandals, leather sandals. So what do you, what do you think about, what do you wear on your feet?

Well, initially I wore boots. Um, then one year that our luggage got left in, our backpacks got left in New York and we didn't get them till the end of the summer. My boots were with the backpacks, so that, yeah, I don't remember what the kind of sneakers they were. Solomon. Okay, what are they called? Solomon.

Solomon. So I got them and they literally were absolutely disgusting by the end, walking [00:21:00] through a common manure and everything. And then day after day in the rain and the mud and all that, when we had to walk in the rain. 'cause it was a seven week trip, I think, at that time. So they were no good at the end.

I. But they were very comfortable. They were comfortable. If I were going steep, um, rocky, you know, terrain downhill, all kinds of weather, they just always felt comfortable on my feet. And after that I was like, Hmm, that's interesting. I kind of like that. Um, I don't really recall to be, actually, no, it, it was more of a sneaker.

Oh, like, um, what's the in between, in-between a boot and a sneaker? Did they call it something? Is it like walking shoes? It could be a walking shoe or a hiking shoe. So I think I had that afterwards. Um, you know, for one of the last Caminos that I went on, but initially I thought, oh, a boot. Only a boot. But then once you get used to the Camino kind of sense, everything and, you know, slow down and I use the walking poles.

Things change. Plus the Solomons were, were great. Absolutely great. Yeah, Solomon's are definitely very, um, popular. I've seen them on the camino on many [00:22:00] pilgrim's, um, feet. Um, yeah, this year, I don't know, I'm thinking about like, so my, my ankles are, I'm 62. My, my feet are definitely arthritic and I, I've used, um, hiking shoes.

Um, actually every single Camino, all nine, I've worn oboes. But this year I'm having some problems with my Achilles tendon. Like it, you know. So, um, a lot of those boots have a very stiff, uh, heel cup. And I don't know if my foot, um, will do well with a stiff heel cup. So I'm thinking about wearing like a, a, a very good sneaker, you know what I mean?

Like a running shoe, but running shoe slash um, trail. Shoe know. So we'll see. I'm not sure I gotta start walking. One thing that I strong would, would strongly urge people to do that if you're planning on going on the Camino and you have a pair of boots or sneakers, whatever it is that you're wearing, and.

You haven't put too many mouse on them. 'cause you can't take something that's so old that you really need a new peer. [00:23:00] But if you've been walking in them and they're working and they're good and they're not worn out yet, I would say rather than get a new peer go with what's, what's already broken in, right?

So it's recommended that whatever you wear, you should break them in. And you're right, you don't wanna wheel them out, but you wanna break them in. If it's a, if it's a boot that'll last a thousand miles, then try to put a hundred miles on them. You know what I mean? Really. Definitely break it in if it's a boot.

Sneakers are almost broken in at, at the time of purchase. But definitely, uh, yeah, because then you, you know, it's, it's good to be able to access different shoes here in the States when you get to the, um, to Spain, you know, the, the cities, the towns, the city's gonna have shoes. But the product is definitely different.

It's definitely different, I think, and what do I know? But I think you're better off buying and, uh, solidifying your shoe choice in the states. Although when I didn't have my boots that year and I got the Solomons, I was thrilled because I would've never chosen to. Um, walk in those, but because I felt I didn't really have much of a choice, I put them on, they felt comfortable.

And then [00:24:00] I loved them on all kinds of terrain right. Through the whole Camino. Right. I was thrilled with them. They felt great on my feet. And you bought those in France, right? In St. John? Yeah. Uh, yes. Right. Okay. Uh, let's continue. Are we still, are we also talking about shoes that you wear at night or just talking about that?

Yes. That's important. So I like to wear Crocs. I think they're very comfortable. They're easy to store and they can double. As you know, when you're not in a private room and you're in an El berga and lots of people are going in the showers, you definitely want something on your feet. And they dry rail quick.

They're very comfortable to wear at night, and they're easy to put those toe socks on. And when I walk around at night, even if my feet have been hurting me during the day for any reason, they feel really comfortable. Right. So last year, uh, one of my, I think my best purchase. Prior to leaving, oh. Was a pair of Teva sandals that I'm wearing right now, actually.

And, um, so after a day's walk, I would put these on, you know, if we're going around town having dinner, but there is that now these leather sandals I wouldn't wear in the [00:25:00] shower. So if I weren't in an, in an, some type of berga, um, it, it's important to wear, uh, you know, some type of shower, shower shoe. And so I had like, uh, they're like rubber, I guess, and a lot of times they're very light and you can stick them somewhere on your, on your bed.

Like flip flops. Yeah, like flip flops, but all, you know, not cloth. And so I could wear those in the shower. Yeah, like I personally would try to go with two shoes. One that could double as walking around at night and one that can work in the shower as well. To carry a third pair of shoes for me, uh, is horrifying because I'm all about, like, after that first year when I overpacked, I'm all about packing less, smaller, lighter.

It just makes life easier on the Camino, right? No, you do, you need something that, you know, if it can double, that's the best. Alright, so now he goes into essential documents. So passports, of course, we, we, you know, you take your passport, um, if you're from Europe, you know, you just need your, your license.

You don't need a passport. If you, in the eu, um, it says [00:26:00] wallet, purse, cash, credit card, travel tickets, diary. So let's go. Uh, how? Yeah. Start one at a time. I can't recall all that once. Alright, so, um, I never took a wallet. Did you ever take a wallet? I. No, let's back up to Passport though. Was that the first one listed?

Yes. Okay. So I think the passport has to be on you pretty much at all times. If you're even going in to take a shower, take your money, purse, whatever it is that's on you, that straps to your body, um, with you and hang it somewhere where you're taking a shower, you do not wanna lose your passport. So I think that's essential thing to make a point of.

One time, I think, did you lose 2016 or leave or lose your backpack? I mean, passport. I left. Yeah, I left my passport. Okay. And, uh, Poona and, uh, thank goodness the gentleman, I, I, uh, I had, there were two friends that I, I was walking with friends, you know, guys I met, um, on the Camino. From Spain and they helped me track it down, but I was like, I don't have my [00:27:00] passport.

They thought I was kidding. They like, oh, you're very funny, Robert. I'm like, no, I'm not trying to be funny this time. Usually I try, but this time, yeah, because when did you realize that you didn't have it? I was, uh, halfway to the, to the, uh, next town, not halfway, one third to the next town and I And how many miles is that?

We were probably a.

Maybe about three miles, four miles away from a, so, and that doesn't seem like a big deal, but if you're in a car, you know, then you can turn around and that's not a big deal. But now you have to walk back, but you're not sure if it's even there. And if you don't speak well the language well enough, you're not sure if somebody there will be able to speak English if you call and you're not sure if the berges are closed for cleaning and so they're not answering the phone.

So there are a lot of things to consider. So it is essential to really keep track of that passport in a safe manner. Right. Very good. I got it back with the help of uh, my two, uh, Spanish engineering students. Alright, uh, so passport, um, then it says [00:28:00] wallet slash purse. I never took a wallet. I never take a wallet.

I take a, uh, like a fanny pack that's kind of thin and I put my, my cash in there. I put my credit card, I bought credit cards and I put also my passport. So passport, cash, credit cards, and that's it. Yeah. And I like the ones that are really thin and they can with Strapp too, and they can go right under a shirt or a sweatshirt, whatever you are wearing.

And it's really good for the plane. It's good for traveling. It's good when you go out at night in the cities. I mean, I always felt very safe, but it's just you're conscious that you're not home and you're really dependent on having that cash. It's not like, well, we'll just go home and we'll have something outta the fridge and we'll figure out, we'll talk to the bank tomorrow.

It's, it's essential, I think, to just keep track of it and to feel safe about it. Right. And one thing about the, um, the fanny pack is that it's gotta have a good clip. You know, 'cause I've, I've seen some of them that, that, uh, the clip seems a little, like, it's not sturdy, you know, [00:29:00] so make sure that the clip that goes around your waist is, um, where you have the strap and the clip is sturdy.

That's important I think. Well, absolutely, because, um, it's so thin and you're not really carrying that much in it. If, if that's the kind that you have, then if it falls, you might not realize it. Right. Alright, so it says cash. Now when we've gone, I, I usually, uh, bring euro with us and some years, look, you know, I've brought 500 euro.

Sometimes I think one year we brought a thousand euro, and I think that's important to start the trip off with. Um, maybe a thousand is too much. What do you think? Well, it depends on who you like. We would go together, so it's the two of us. And we do tend to stay in private rooms. You don't as much when you're, um, on your own.

But when I'm with you, we tend to stay in private rooms. Uh, 'cause I don't prefer the bergeys as much as I like the private rooms. That's the reason. Um, so it really depends on how much your budget is for each day and whether or not you're traveling alone and whether or not [00:30:00] you're going to restaurants or.

The supermarkets, that kind of stuff. You have to like look at the whole picture, I think. Okay. Credit card. So we've traveled with credit cards. Yes. Um, let's see. Or your ATM card, right? Either. Right, right. A diary. Do you think a diary's important? Well, it's interesting because the very first Camino that we went on, I didn't bring anything to, um, write in or to write with.

And I, I remember stopping way into the Camino finally finding a store and getting a pen and getting a notebook and I felt so relieved. So, um, if you're someone who likes to write, it's a great experience, but it, everything blends from one day to the next. If you keep notes, you'll remember your communal so much better.

So, yeah, I think keeping a diary is a good thing. If you're someone like me who doesn't wanna carry the extra weight or anything that's too big, just get a small lightweight diary because. You don't really need to write long, um, you know, descriptions of things. [00:31:00] I remember just writing, um, you know, where we came from, where we went to, how long that was in between where we stayed, who we met.

I just took little notes and anytime I was trying to remember something about the Camino or you asked me something, I said, hold on, lemme go check my notes. And I check my notes and, and everything would come flooding back. And if you are someone who takes pictures in your phone or if takes pictures that you can follow, uh, and now you know you can match your notes with the pictures and you have wonderful memories from that.

That's cool. Yeah, I would definitely, um, suggest some type of journal. And, uh, if, if you're not a big writer, I would still spend a little bit of time each day writing. I think it deepens the experience. It gives you a moment. It gives you time to reflect, you know what I mean? It's like forced reflection. Uh, then it says emergency addresses and phone numbers.

Did we ever do that? Well, it's not a bad idea. I didn't tend to, um, well, I didn't actually, you used your cell phone on the Camino. I never used mine. Mine was always off. Um, and [00:32:00] I don't have all my numbers memorized, so yeah, that's probably a really great thing. Okay, the next heading or categories? Backpack.

So I suggest now I've, both of us have always carried offs spray, which is a, a great backpack. I really, I love it. It's very comfortable. It's well made, it's durable. Um, and the ones I've had have contained, well, most of them have contained rain covers, so I like this year, I'll, I'm gonna go back to my original backpack.

It's like 38 liters, maybe 36. It's big enough. And I don't want a big, last summer I took a bigger one because I had a computer, I had digital recorder, I had microphones. I just, and even though I'm gonna, I'm gonna podcast. You know, on the Camino this year, I, I have to keep it to one microphone and this tiny little digital recorder.

No, no. Um, computer and, you know, I just, it's just too much weight for me. Okay. So, oh, yeah, your backpack was, I [00:33:00] mean, I don't think I could even pick it up off the floor. No, actually, and I could always, on any camino, I could always lift your backpack. Not to say that it was comfortable, it was always a little heavier than mine, but this one was like crazy heavy.

Yeah, no, it definitely was a millstone. Um, so the off spray, like I said, is a, it's a great backpack. Um, with rain, with a rain cover now sleeping bag, from my experience I've taken, okay, so I've gone on the Camino nine times. I have left four brand new sleeping bags in Spain, and that's a, that's a conservative number.

So if you're going in the summer and you're gonna stay in El Alberta's, I, I don't recommend a, a, um, sleeping bag. Um. I don't, it's really unnecessary. Now, some people say, well, I wanna sleep out under the stars, or, you know, it might protect me from bedbugs or, so there are some reasons to take, uh, a sleeping bag, but as I get older, it's just more of a, you know, it's just an addition that I don't need.[00:34:00] 

Yeah, I never, ever, um, brought a sleeping bag. I always said, no. I absolutely do not want one. Um, just the size of it. Um, you can get smaller ones, but just, you'd have to clip it outside your backpack usually. And, um, it's even a lightweight one. It's gonna be too heavy. Usually in the summer, it's warm, even at night sleeping.

Um, I do not wanna sleep outside. I do not wanna sleep in a tent. I do not wanna sleep under the stars. If we got straighted, I would rather keep walking until the sun rose or until we found a place rather than stay outside. But some people bring backpacks and they actually do sleep outside, and that's part of the experience for them.

So it really is a personal choice, I think. But for the most part, I would think most people stay in the El Buress. That's where we are gonna meet a lot of people where you, you're gonna see the same people on the road. I think it's a good choice to just do that personally, even though a lot of times stay in private rooms.

Um, but I did get one at least one year and maybe used it two years [00:35:00] was a cocoon, which is that I think it's made of silk. And so it does, it says it protects you from bugs if you're on in the beds, in the, um, elbow gates. Um, if you get inside it, it doesn't. It doesn't make you really hot. Uh, you just feel protected and snug.

But if, uh, it's a little chilly, it will keep you warm enough. Oh. Just to qualify. Okay. And it's very tiny. It wraps up really small. It takes up almost no room. And it's extremely lightweight. It's, it's tiny. Just to qualify though, um, that most es do not have bedbugs, it's, it's, uh, it's not, uh, something that I would, uh, it shouldn't inhibit someone from going on the Camino.

I, I did say tell uh, a gentleman about the bed bugs. He's like, what? No, I would never go. I'm like, no, no. I shouldn't have told you. And it's true. Most people do not get them. You see people walking along and everybody looks fine. However, out of three out of my four Caminos, I did get bedbugs. Right? So it is a problem for me.

Your mama bedbug. Alright. They say a [00:36:00] towel. I personally never bring a towel because we almost always in private rooms when I'm there, but also because I have this scarf that I usually bring, and I bought it when we were in Lords. So I had it for that Camino that we were on, um, for seven weeks. And it's very lightweight, so it covers me, um, in the sun.

It covers a pillow. If I'm in an El Alberta where I feel like I just don't like this pillow, I feel more comfortable with my own material. And so also one, one time when I was cold, I wrapped the scoff around me, but also it acted as a towel when I needed it and dried very quickly. And if it didn't dry, I could easily pin it, um, to the outside of my pack if it were sunny.

Okay. So I have brought like those camping towels that I don't really like. They're not super absorbent. No. So I think it's a complete waste of space, even though it's not, um, heavy. If they don't dry you well then what's the point? My scoff worked. Probably better than those little towels. [00:37:00] So I personally don't like them, but I think it's a personal preference.

What works for you? Oh, I think I took your, uh, your scarf last year, didn't I? In the Camino. Oh, did you? I actually came back. Did you use it as a towel? Yeah. It worked wonderful for you? Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. It's very light. Okay. Water bottle. Now for me, I do carry one water bottle, you know, a plastic one that I fill, and then I buy water on the, on the, uh, on the root, on the Camino and I'll, so what I'll do is, uh, or I'll buy two water bottles.

I'll fill up my water bottle with, you know, the purchased water, and then I'll stick the other one in the other side. So I, I tend to carry, you know, water on both sides of the pack. Yes, I mean, I personally, um, prefer to buy the water on the Camino and I don't mind refilling my water bottle when we get to a fountain that's safe or any a tap water at a place that's safe.

But, um, I do not like to have my own water bottle. I think the plastic water bottles are just, um, more lightweight. And, and I do [00:38:00] drink a lot of water and usually I like, I'm not sure, um, not the small bottles, but, but what size is the one we usually get? It's like a liter. A liter. And I usually get two of those.

And if it's a long, hot day of walking and it's pretty hot, which it usually is, I do tend to drink a lot of water. I tend to buy some along the way as well. Alright, this next one is a pen knife. Now I was always like, I have these small knives that I, I could take. Um, I've never needed a knife, you know, but, uh, but I've always felt like, okay, if I put a pen knife in my backpack, I'll probably spend, you know, multiple years in prison.

So, uh, but there are places on the Camino that you can, especially early on in la I know in, uh, Siberia there's a, a sporting shop that you can buy a knife. If you feel like that's important, I would have no need for a knife. I can't even imagine why you would need a knife. What would you use it for? I don't dunno.

Maybe do a version of West Side story seriously? No. To me, I would never bring a knife. Right. It's that [00:39:00] whole like Daniel Boone thing. You're like, I need a knife. Yeah. I, I personally, I, I see no need. Alright. If you can explain to me why someone might need a knife, I can speak. That'd be great. The language.

Alright. Toiletries. It starts off with soap. Do you bring a bar of soap? Well, again, because we stay in the, um, private rooms, typically you're gonna get a bar of soap, little, um, bottles of shampoo and things like that along the way. So that's typically what I start with. And then I just maintain, um, you know, I use it to wash out my clothes.

I use it to wash my face. I use it to wash my hands. I use it to take a shower. Um, and so the bars of soap that are available in the little bottles of shampoo, sometimes conditioner, depending on where you are. And I just manage, I make sure if I don't have enough, I kind of ration myself. If I have too much, I kind of leave the a few behind if they're good.

If not, um, you know, I throw them away. Alright. So I usually bring something, um. Something that's a combination. Like, so if I bring some type of shampoo, I'm gonna use that also to wash [00:40:00] my, my clothing. So, and then, you know, once that's gone, I can always purchase something, uh, while on the Camino. So I, I always bring something to like a shampoo type of thing.

Alright. Uh, toothbrush, toothpaste. Uh, obviously necessities, hairbrush, I do because, uh, well there was one year that I didn't have to worry about that. I think I brought a small comb because I got my hair cut. Uh, and I got this really short, um, really, and she really like thinned out my hair. Not that I have very thick hair, but I literally could wash my hair and just run my fingers through it.

So a little comb was no big deal. Um, but I, if I bring a brush, it's a small, late lightweight brush, but still, I'm always looking for small. That doesn't take up a lot of room and all that. Other than that, I do tend to have long hair and I always clip it up. So. Yes, I always bring a brush. Alright. This is, I don't tend to, like, this summer, I'll just get a really short haircut and I'll trim my beard a little bit and I'll just let my beard go.

And if I [00:41:00] feel like I have to, um, you know, outline my beard, my cheeks and my neck, I'll just buy a razor in, uh, in Spain, you know? Right. And then I'll just dispose of it. Alright. This is interesting. A sink stopper. That's interesting. I've never brought a sink stopper to do my laundry. Usually that, uh, you know, that's, that must be the reason why he, he put sink stopper here.

It must be because I bet a lot of times, um, they're not there or they don't work, um, or they're misplaced or whatever. So, and if you wanna soak your laundry and really ring it out good and really get it clean, um, because most of the time you're gonna do hand washing if you are somewhere where you can actually get it washed for you.

Um, and they wash and dry it. Um, then that's different obviously, but most people are stopping Thea and they're washing them out in the sink and putting them on the line for the most part. Um, so with that in mind, it really depends on your level of cleanliness, I suppose. How clean do you want these clothes to be?

Sometimes we get in so late that I would just not even [00:42:00] get to wash out every single thing, only wash out the things that were really essential and kind of feel like, oh, like I gotta put these pants back on. And they're like a little dusty around the, um, you know, the bottom of the pants from walking in the.

It's, you know, the dry, um, sand all day. Or not sand 'cause we're not working on sand, but you know what I mean, the dry trails. Um, but once you get walkin, you feel completely fine. Um, so I think that if you are going to really be doing the laundry every day and you really want really clean clothes, then yes, then I could see why somebody would want to take that, but it wouldn't be necessary for me.

Alright. So shaving cream, like I said, I would buy it if I felt, felt, if I felt like a, a need to trim my beard. Um, razors again, I would buy a razor on the, on the camino. Right. And you tend to let your, um, be a go a little bit. Um, some people, if people, if guy's gonna wanna shave every day, or women do use shaving cream to shave then and they, and they, they do it every day or every other day, [00:43:00] then that would be something that they might think is essential for us.

It didn't tend to be feast cloth. Uh, no, because again, staying in the private Burgess, typically, um, you, they'd give you a face cloth. And so there'd be enough of that where, so if I was in El Berga for one night, I could just splash water on my face and make dew or take the edge of my scarf and scrub. So it worked.

Uh, sunscreen. Sunscreen is absolutely essential. I don't need a lot because like I said, I wear the long sleeve shirts, I even wear gloves. Um, it helps with the trekking poles, uh, but it helps also protect my skin and especially the times they got bedbugs. Um, the medicine, the blisters themselves, plus the medicine that you put on them, cause them to, um, swell to, um, really blister up and become very painful and itchy.

So wearing the gloves prevents all that for me. The pants, everything. I'm pretty much covered with the hat and all. Um, I just still might put it on my face, my ears, my neck [00:44:00] just for, um, for safety, but mostly like a face stick, something like that. Right. So I agree. And then it says after sun cream, like an aloe vera or something.

Well, no. Like if I were home and we're going to the beach, almost always, you just can never get enough, you know? Um, uh, put enough on during the day and you always end up. For me, I always ended up with a little bit of a burn, but not on the Camino moisturizer. Uh, some kind of cream is always good, but I tend in the summer, my skin doesn't tend to get as dry, to be honest.

So I didn't need a lot. It really depends on your level of maintenance. Yeah. I'll tell you one thing though, creams, I know this sounds absurd, but creams, you know, like, uh, shaving cream, uh, sun sunscreen, moisturizes, whatever you take, it adds up quickly. The weight adds up. You're like, oh, not really. But no, they definitely, uh, add to the pack.

So try to buy something that, you know, has a, that covers, uh, multiple needs. Um, yeah, I definitely agree with that. Toilet paper. [00:45:00] Uh, well I found that um, you did need to carry something in your pack, whether it's like extra tissue or something. Um, sometimes you'd go to a cafe and they'd give you napkins and you wouldn't use them all.

You stick 'em in your pack. But as far as bringing a roll of toilet paper to begin with, no, for me, 'cause we start out, we're at an airport and so until you get actually walking the Camino, you don't really need that. By that time I've already stocked up on a little bit of tissue, which I brought, I would stock with some anyway, or napkins from restaurants and things like that.

Rather let them go to waste, stick 'em in my pack. So I personally never needed that. It says, uh, female products. Yeah, it really depends on, you know, your age and, and your need and your cycle. Alright, so first aid kit. Alright, so painkillers as, as opposed to aspirin. So he's got painkillers and then I don't know if I'd bring painkillers.

Well, I think that you have to be careful. When you're going through security, [00:46:00] um, well, everything's probably in the pack, you know, but if you're carrying it on you, everything should be clearly labeled. Oh, right, right. And with the doctor, I mean, I read this somewhere once, I don't know how true it is. I never really had to, um, I think you may have brought some Aleve the first time, or Advil or something.

Um, but, but to be honest, once you get walking on the Camino, I mean, dealing with the pain is important. Trying to mask the pain and continue walking. I would be very reluctant to do that. Okay. So they have like plasters, you know, that's almost like a, as opposed to compe. So plaster, we, it's kind of like a compe, um, blister pads com, which is second skin.

So what are you bringing to help you, uh, avoid. Or, um, address blisters? Well, I'm pretty fortunate because, um, and like I said, I don't, there was one time I remember that I got a really big blister that was really painful and it was because it was one day I just felt great and I just felt like walking fast.

And I got the blister after that. And I, of course [00:47:00] you get blisters and you get different things with your feet and you c but blisters are very, very sore. Sometimes blisters are worse than any kinda strain or, um, pain in your foot or like muscle tension, anything like that. Even like sometimes when your bones ache, it's not as bad as a blister to me anyway.

But, um, I'm pretty fortunate like that because, 'cause almost always, well, always I'm traveling with you and almost always you have exactly what's needed for whatever my foot ailment is, especially blisters. Right? I do like compete. I know that it's not highly recommended. I like it's 'cause it's like a second skin.

Okay. It's very, it's got a strong adhesive and um, but I think it's important to use it when you have like. They say it's called a hotspot. So not, not a blister, but something, there's friction there and you wanna put it on before it turns into a blister. Once it's a blister, it's definitely not recommended.

Yeah, so I think there's, it is definitely important to be paying attention to your feet before you walk, during the walk, after the walk. If you're [00:48:00] walking long days like we did, you have to be taking off your boots and your socks and really looking at your feet. Every time you stop. No, that's true. And I think most people don't do that.

Um, they don't stop 'cause they, for whatever, they're in a rhythm, they feel good and they don't really, uh, recognize the need to stop and take your boots off, shoes off, sneakers off, and take your socks off and let your feet cool down. It really, it feels really good and the socks tend to dry and when you're putting them back on, sometimes you don't really want to.

But then once you get moving again, it feels good. It feels so much better than just leaving them in the boots. Okay. The next category is medicine prescription. So it says asthma inhaler. I do. I can have, uh, some issues with asthma. Usually it's, um, it's brought on by the environment, so it might be usually mold or even like cat here.

Um, I don't usually bring an inhaler. Um. It says, but I do bring Benadryl. That's one thing I do bring because I do have [00:49:00] allergies and if you eat something and you feel your throat, um, growing heavy, it's good to have Benadryl to throw back. Do a couple shots of that. Right. Well it's interesting 'cause the very first Camino that I went on, I had had, um, allergies since I was in my early twenties, but it was more just like sinus sneezing, headachey feeling like you had like pressure in your head, things like that.

But nothing major except sometimes I'd get pains in my teeth as well. That first Camino that I went on, I have no idea why was the first time in my life since I started the allergies was since my early twenties. Um, and the only time since then that I said, wow, I didn't have any allergy symptoms. The entire trip.

The grace of God. Yeah. But since then, even the other times I went, I thought I would have the same experience and no. And then one time when, um. I was, had bedbugs, um, and the, they turned into blisters and itchy and, and sore and all that. The, um, [00:50:00] pharmacist said that it was allergy to the sun and put me on, um, Claratin.

Claratin. Thank you. And so I did take that then. And I don't recall whether or not I was so preoccupied with all these itchy saws on my body that I wasn't really paying attention to anything else. So whether or not it that helps me on the Camino with the allergies and my allergies aren't bad. Like, they're not like, they're just uncomfortable, you know?

So, okay. So obviously if you have medical, uh, needs, you know, uh, and you have medicines, make sure that you, you pack those. Absolutely. It's essential. Yeah, it's essential. Okay. So now at the very end of this list, he has a category called Accessories optional. I'll just go through them and just give me your, uh, your take walking poles.

Absolutely. The very first Camino, I was adamant, I was like, I am not taking, um, trekking poles. I am, I'm gonna, when we get to Spain, I'm going to buy a walking stick and that's what I'm gonna use. There is no way. I like to have my hands [00:51:00] free. I am not interested in trekking poles. And it was the second, I think it was the third day in, and we were on our way to Berry and.

I remember saying, I know that I'm walking, but my legs do not feel like they're going anywhere. And I was so distraught and I'm like, I am just so exhausted. And the terrain was very difficult. And I remember you saying, here, take my trekking poles, and I gave you my walking stick. And as soon as I started walking with them, and I think I mentioned this on an earlier episode, that my, I felt motorized, I still felt tired and I still felt a little bit discouraged.

Like this trip is a little harder than I thought it would be, but I was like, I wanted trekking poles after that. And now even when I walk anything more than like a mile, even around town, I want the And poles. Right. That's cool. The pilgrim shell. I don't usually hang that from my pack. Okay. I, I think it's a great thing.

Um, but I am really like, if I don't need it, if it's not [00:52:00] essential, if it's not gonna, you know, make or break my Camino, I'm not gonna do it. But I do think there is a lot of, um, this symbolism and the importance of that you are walking a pilgrimage that need, that needs to be at the forefront for me anyway.

Okay. Binoculars? No, I would see no need for binoculars unless you were with someone and you, and you were gonna actually walk together. There are sometimes long stretches you could be like, I see people up there, but not sure if that's the person I'm walking with. That's really, but I wouldn't, I I just like to see what I can see.

Right, right. That's cool. I wouldn't mpp binoculars camera. Well, I always asked you to take a picture with your phone. I didn't even put my phone on. And if I actually had a camera that was bigger than a phone, I wouldn't be. Happy to use it. And I also like to really appreciate the beauty then, and I still have images in my mind.

And I remember this one particular image from the first Camino with these massive golden horses that were running up the side of a mountain and the [00:53:00] way the sun hit and the purple, um, flowers or weeds, whatever they were growing. It was just absolutely magnificent. The most beautiful thing that I've ever seen in life, other than, you know, a baby's face, things like that, of course.

But in, in my own personal life, just the beauty of nature, it was so gorgeous. And so you did get a picture, but the picture didn't even come close to me. The memory in my mind is much richer. Alright. Uh, it says a flashlight or a headlight. So I've bought headlights in the past and, uh, I think I wouldn't recommend a headlight.

Um, because you can use your phone. Most people have phones now, and you, you can use the light on the phone. And so that's, I think that has replaced the headlight for me at least, even when I'm outside, say it's early morning and it's, uh, the sun isn't up, I would still tend, because I don't think that the headlights are super, um, they're not powerful enough to really cast a, a strong light on the, on the, uh, path.

I don't think, well, for me, I never want, um, [00:54:00] what do you call that again? It's like a headlight. A headlight because I don't wanna walk in the dock. I know. And I walk with you. So I remember when we got up one morning early in pomp, we've gotten in other places too, but they were smaller towns and. I mean, looking back, we were very safe, but it was early morning.

There were still some people that were out from the night before walking around. We got lost. Other pilgrims were getting lost. We weren't really with a lot of other pilgrims, you get easily separated in the early morning. It was still dark. It wasn't gonna be light for at least another hour, and I went into a state of panic.

I was not comfortable. I do not wanna walk in the dark, so I do not want, I had light at all, and I wouldn't want a flashlight or to use my phone because I want to use my tracking poles. I feel safer, but also you do have, like, there were some lights because it was a city, so there were some light posts, you know?

Lampposts. Lampposts. Lampposts, thank you. And those lights were on. And then also those, you know, sometimes [00:55:00] the moon is shining. Sometimes it's not as dark as you would think. However, if you're out, um, you know, in more rural areas and you're on, like in the path that are going through the woods, then I would think it's essential.

But I do not wanna walk in the dark. But some people like it. I mean, there are some groups of people that go, you know, we're gonna, you know, walk through the night through the, and things like that. There are definitely people that are going to do that. So if you are that kind of a person or you are walking with a group that's like that, then yeah, for you it would be essential.

Tolkien wrote all who won or not lost, but that doesn't apply to us. Okay. Um, so let's see, what about a watch? I do like to wear a watch. Um. Well, I, I wear a watch, you know, now when I go to work, I like to have it on my wrist because I have to go. I'm, I'm a teacher and so I have to go and pick up the students at a certain time.

And I like to make sure that I, if I don't have my phone on me, which I, a lot of times I don't, I, I like to make sure if I'm not near a clock, that I pick up my kids on time. Um, but on the Camino [00:56:00] I like to forget time, you know, just ask people or pay attention and then just kind of go with it. Alright, here it says alarm clock.

I have a, an alarm on my phone that I use, right? You don't take, well if you're an El Berg gate. For me, I don't think it's, it's a good thing to set up your alarm. Also, I like, love to get up early when I say early three, four, or five, even when I don't have to. You know, um, at home, I, I love to rise. Before dock this morning was very interesting.

I was like, oh my gosh, it's light out. It must be late. And it was only, well because it's getting lighter earlier now. It was a little bit after five and I felt like I, I had gotten up late. It's a Sunday morning. Um, but on the Camino, I liked to sleep in as long as possible. I do not wanna be woken up by an alarm.

What about a sleeping mat? Well, that would be if only, if you're sleeping outside, I would think. Or in a tent, and Absolutely. I would never bring [00:57:00] that, even if I were bringing a sleeping bag and a tent, or even just a sleeping bag, I would never, if it would just take up too much room, I don't know what kind of weight it would be, but I just would never do it.

Clothes line or a cord? No, because I think that most of the places where you're gonna stay, they're gonna have a place to hang your clothes, to dry air plugs to, uh, as is against snoring. I am so exhausted I fall asleep. And plus we stay in private rooms a lot. So, and also I think that is part of the interesting thing of the Camino, if you stay in an El Burge, and sometimes we have when I really didn't want to, and some of the experiences you have there make the best memories.

And even if it's the way somebody snores and even if it keeps you awake a little bit, that inconvenience is just a part of the Camino. And there are other things about the Camino that are so convenient and such a relief and so exciting and so thrilling that you have to kind of take the whole Camino as it comes.

Okay. What about a knife of fork or spoon in a cup? Well, no, 'cause [00:58:00] I would rather stop at the cafes. And if I were going to buy things to put in my pack, mostly it's like on the road I'm drinking water, um, because that's essential. And then, um, if it's something that I'm eating, I'm going to just. Dried apricots, walnuts, something that's easy.

That's that I don't need to, I don't need to make a meal when I stop at the restaurants. I'll get a meal then. Uh, the healthy snacks in between, I think for me are good. Okay. Very good. I just wanna come back to, uh, the beginning of this podcast and, uh, just say that when my characters were in that sporting goods shop, uh, you could hear hopefully in the, uh, the narrative how, uh, they were, you know, they had a misperception of what they needed.

At least three of them did. I think shorty was the, the wisest and he listened to the clerk. But it really, we do pack our fears. I mean, and people like me pack our books and that's never, that's never a good thing. I always take way too many books. Like, well, how many books are you taking? Seven. [00:59:00] Seven. How many coming back?

Zero. So, uh, that's another one of my, um, problems that, uh, I'm going, you know, I'm trying to work through, um. Alright, well I do remember the first Camino, you did have books, you had things to write and I didn't, but I remember being so exhausted that whenever we stopped somewhere I would just like take a nap even if we were taking a day off.

But I do remember once being in a town, I think it was a Sunday and we had taken the day off to make sure we get to mass and you were sitting at a desk and you were reading and you were writing and I remember being so impressed 'cause I was just all I could do just to lie there and relax and, but since then I'm like, I need a book.

I can't go that long without reading, but it's always small. I'll read it again if I need to, or it can be something that's challenging a little bit over my head so that I can, you read it in small bits, but I have to have a book on me. But small and lightweight. I agree. Alright, so, uh, before you, uh, leave for Europe, make sure you, uh, this is actually, I'm not being, [01:00:00] um, this is not tongue in cheek.

You should pack more than once. Okay. So Karen's, Karen has often packed, unpacked, and then packed again. And on that second or third time you found, uh. What you were looking for. Yes. But also always pack from a list, not the generic list that we just went through. Make your list very personal. Write down everything that you think you wanna take so that as you decide and you're crossing it off, you, you are making a, a firm decision and it's for a good reason.

But have your own personal list that you work from so you don't forget something that is essential for you. Right. So we want to thank John Bri's guidebook. Uh, like I said, it's probably the definitive guidebook and I've quote it a number of times and uh, left cam a number of times. Alright, thank you very much.

And as always, Karen Buen Camino [01:01:00] [01:02:00] boy.