These Holy Bones: Vol. 1 Episode 13: Traveling Light and Living Simply with James O'Connor

In this episode, a fellow Rhode Island pilgrim, James O'Connor, shares insights from his pilgrimage on the Frances in 2012 and his travels on the Portuguese Camino in 2024. His passion for the outdoors and his enthusiasm for his fellow pilgrim is at the heart of this interview. Have a listen. 

Transcript

These Holy Bones James O'Connor - 6:3:25, 9.35 PM

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of These Holy Bones, a podcast about the pilgrimage to the Cathedral of Santiago where the bones of St. James are interred beneath the high altar. I'm your host Robert Nerney, and today I'm with James O'Connor and we are friends from the gym. We met at the gym and  James was looking at my Camino bracelets and he said, Hey, did you ever do the Camino?

And I said, wait, who's that? Is that God talking to me? And so that's how we met. We met through my bracelets, I never take these off. It's sad. I'm an old man with wearing bracelets. Alright, James, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Yeah, absolutely. Uh. Thanks for the introduction too. So I'm 45. Uh, I'm from Providence, uh, born and raised Rhode Islander.

I am religious. That's not the reason I go into the Camino, though. Uh, I've always liked keeping active. Uh, and like you mentioned the gym and I played sports growing up and I work in the fire department of Providence. I went to school [00:01:00] for, uh, physical education originally from Rhode Island College. I worked in Providence, central Falls, Lincoln, Johnston, Boston, and North Providence, uh, at one capacity or another as a teacher.

Oh, excellent. Yeah, a lot of. Yep. I went to Rick.  I was a teacher for 33 years. So we have still have backgrounds. It's interesting. Mm-hmm. And uh, during the summer you do meet a lot of teachers on the Camino 'cause we Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I have a story. I was sitting next to this woman, it was at a communal meal.

It was a beautiful meal and she kept yapping. She was an older woman. Right. But I'm older too, but sometimes you don't see yourself as older. And I am like, oh, well she just shut up and, uh, which is not very charitable. And so, um, the meal ended. I had a private room in Berga. The next morning I get up a little late and, uh, this woman and her husband is sitting there eating bacon and eggs, which is unusual, you know, like an American breakfast.

Yeah. I said, oh, that looks so good. She goes, yeah, yeah, she'll make that for you, you know, if you pay her. So I sheer breakfast with him and then, um, I said, Hey, have a great day. She goes, there's only one road, dude. And so I ended up walking with her and her [00:02:00] husband, both of them, teachers from Montreal, one of the best days of my life.

So you, I kind of swallowed my words from the night before, you know? So yeah. They were the sweetest people. And she had taught math like for like 45 years. And he was a teacher too. And it was just a great, you know, it was like kindred spirits. And we walked, there was a section 11 miles where there's no services.

It's like after the desert. Was that the desert section? No, it's like right after, like, um, let's see, I forget the, the town. Uh, but yeah, it's 11 miles, no services. And so that we just walk together. But let's start with, um, so your first Camino was 2012. 2012. Yep. And so what was the provocation? What got you on the Camino?

That's a, it's a good question with a lengthy answer on that one. That's fine. So I'm hanging out, I can't remember what kind of platform it would've been at the time that was on television, or if the movie was rented or was a red, it might have been red box. Maybe the old red box. Yes. You go like CVS. Yeah.

Uh, that movie The Way Alright. You know, wound Up being watched somehow. I don't remember how it was acquired. Okay. But it was watched. That's fine. I'm trying to think date and back for what it would've been in 2012. Um, and you know, I'm saying to my buddy, I was like, oh, I so just random. You [00:03:00] said, oh, I just just chose that movie randomly.

I can't remember how I want it be on. It could have been my buddy put it on. Yeah. Yeah. I don't remember. One of my friends though, um, like I said, he was in kind of a tough spot, you know, with his situation. We just kind of hanging out probably like, you know, drinking beers, you know, hanging out in my living room.

And I was like, man, this looks so cool. I love to do something like that. Wow. He's like, well you should. He's like, you, you talk about enough stuff, you never do it. Why don't you just do it? He's like, you gotta have the money. You working two full-time jobs. Why don't you know the summer? Who's no more school?

And I was like, yeah, should he is like, yeah, you should. I was like, yeah, I wouldn't wanna give up the summer. He's like, dude, it'll be the best summer of your life. Wow. And uh. I, you know, I'm thinking about it and, you know, watch the movie. And that night I wound up buying a ticket. Wow. You know, and the cheapest ticket I could get was to London, you know?

Okay. And that, that was the way it was done. It's funny that your friend was so adamant about it, and he's like, no, do it. That's funny. That's interesting. Well, like. You know, uh, I gotta give him a lot of credit on it too. 'cause he, uh, he went to BU for history. Excellent. And, uh, yeah, smart, smart kid. And like in high school he was like, whatever, they have like all those superlatives and like ideal senior or some like [00:04:00] thing like that, you know, like, uh, he didn't get a job afterwards either.

For what? He went for. His father worked at Butler doing security, and then he got him a job at Butler, so like therapists. So we just hear people talk all day. They'd be stressed, you know, or around it, you know. So he kind of like could pick out a couple things. He's like, well, it doesn't take, like now looking back, it sounds ridiculous.

It doesn't take like a doctor to realize I had too much going on. Right. You know? And uh, I was, but sometimes we need that push though because Definitely, yeah. It's hard to be objective. Yeah. You just don't realize it. And, uh. You know, with that, like, it just seemed like it was something that would be like a tailor made.

Like they show, they show 'em walking through the movie in like, uh, one popular scene. They got those big giant hay bales off to the side and it's just like nothing. But stuff like that, as far as you can, all they're doing is walking and talking and people from all over the place and they're very, uh, different.

The personalities and the ages and the background. Yeah. And everyone's going the same direction, you know, which is pretty interesting. I think that's interesting. The Camino in general, I think a lot of times is, is just that, you know, it's like everyone's kind of going in the same direction. And in reality that's kind of the similarity to a lot of people.

You know, it's kind of like, you know, they'd say like, uh, it, I don't know if they still say it as much now, but I went, I went the French Way, and you start on St. John, they said, that's like your birth. [00:05:00] And then when you finished in Santiago, we finished after you make it that far. That's kind of like your death, you know?

Yeah, no, it definitely has that, it's like, it kind of mimics your life a lot. Yeah, it's definitely a great metaphor for life. You know what I mean? And it's just a, it's a beautiful thing. It's funny because the reason I went was also because of, uh, the way Yep. The movie. So a friend, um, mentioned it. I bought it, I watched it.

My wife fell asleep. I was like, oh, this is kind of slow. I didn't really have, I had no idea what, what it was, you know? Yeah. And then I went to teach, um, pilgrimage, um, to my students in Providence. And I'm like, I'm not teaching them the Canterbury Tales 'cause I don't wanna read Chaucer. I don't mind Chaucer.

But, so I had that movie. I had the DVD, so I brought it in, showed it to 'em over, uh, the next couple of days. And then they had to write a review on the movie. And it was really a ton of positive reviews. You know, I was over at, um, Nia Sanchez. Yep. And, um, so I. I told my wife about it and she goes, oh, maybe we should do it.

And I said, oh, that'd be cool. She goes, nah, it's kind of stupid. I'm like, yeah, okay. Forget it. But a month later she said, Hey, let's do it. We'll pray for our chil. We have four children. We'll pray for our children and our grandchildren. And so, uh. We were very ill prepared though, in 2015, we were probably the, the most ill prepared pilgrims.

We had people saying, you guys all right, are you gonna make it? We were like, no, we're not. Like, how so? And we didn't make it. We, we just, uh, instead of like getting in [00:06:00] shape, we read books. Yeah. As teachers do, you know, so we read five books a piece, and I mean, we did work out a little bit and I, I do have a, you know, a history with sports and stuff, but, um, we really weren't, um, prepared for like the mountains and stuff like that.

Yeah. You know? And so we never made it, we never made it to Santiago. We left, we went home after Leone. So when I got home, about seven days later, I said to my wife, I said, I gotta go back and finish. And she goes, you're going by yourself.

And I did. The next year I went back and did the whole thing. You know, I think even, uh. The idea of making it there though now I say like the first step is like the toughest one. A lot of times I think that's the more difficult part. And that transition from your regular daily life to going over there with that in your mind is the more difficult aspect as far as finishing it.

Like that's kind of like, like, that's like the icing on the cake or the cherry on top type thing. Right, right, right, right. And it's, it's definitely nice and it's something you want to do and you can tell, like when you hit that cathedral of Santiago, like you timing when you're gonna get there, you know?

And if it's like, you're, you're, you're dying to get there that day. And it's like you're, you get there and you're like, like, like 10 pounds of dead meat come the end. But a lot of people want to get there in the morning. They want a little [00:07:00] time themself. They want to hear the birds in the morning. They wanna see the sun come up.

And when you see people just like flow into there. And you realize that's been happening for like a thousand, yeah. A thousand years, 800 years, whatever, whatever it is. Yeah. They say 1200, 1200 years. There you go. So, I mean, it's like, it's quite a thing. Oh, it's amazing. It's amazing because it's, uh, like you said, people from all over the world, uh, on this, you know, on this path to Santiago.

And, um, and we all get, for the most part, you know, you get along with everyone for the most part, man. You know, that's, it's unusual for people not to get along in the Camino. Yeah, I'd agree. Yeah. And even with different, um, beliefs, people are still open to discussing, oh, you know, whatever your belief is, and, uh, just a, a real beautiful trip.

I mean, it's just, it's simple. It's very simple. It's very simple. There's not too much to argue about. There's not too much to really disagree with. And like some things that like differences, even like something like a language. Yeah. A lot of times it's not even that big of a deal there. It's not if you are walking with somebody, you got 10 hours to kind of like shoot the breeze.

You can usually communicate pretty, pretty well. It's true. You know, it's true. And like, uh, I, I found that kind of amazing. And like another thing I thought was, was pretty cool is, uh, for different things that come up. 'cause there's definitely hurdles and boundaries and, and obstacles so to speak. Uh, not like you're jumping over like, you know, [00:08:00] like an actual 39 inch hurdle, like on a, on a track event, you know?

Right, right. But there's things that come up. Like, I remember I had a backpack strap that got ripped. I had to find like a seamstress to sew it up for me. And, you know, things like that might happen. You might not have a place you can sleep at night and you gotta kind of, you gotta come up with something, you know, it might mean walking a little bit farther.

I, I know for myself, like. Like the archways to churches a lot of times or steps or buildings. You wouldn't get the dew on you if you slept under there. There were several times, me and the people I was with, we slept on those. Wow. Uh, something like the language barriers, like I said, uh, you know, before we started a quarter, I mentioned you, I met somebody from Germany.

She spoke a little English. I definitely didn't know any German. You know, we hung out the whole time I was there and I felt very kind of apprehensive about going by myself. Initially. When I got to St. John, uh, I wanted meeting somebody from Ireland. My mother's from Ireland as well, so it was kind of like a, a bond.

Yeah. She invited me. She's, well, there's extra room, extra space in our room. If you want to sleep there, you're welcome to. And I did. It wound up being her, uh, [00:09:00] all, you know, a separate party. Another guy from Ireland as well. He just graduated university. And then, uh, another couple, uh, from Ireland as well.

Wow. And then I was the fifth and we all walked together. And the original girl, Patricia, was her name. I visited her since an island. Wow. She had a flyback. Her grandfather had passed away. Uh, and then the two, Jeff and Natasha, I had visited them in island as well. They were like going, I believe, to Leon.

And I kind of felt bad actually, uh, on kind of their, uh, their goodbye party. 'cause you know, you know each other a whole like two weeks. But those two weeks seem like, like two years though. Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Time moves different. Oh, it is. When you're walking with someone, if you spend a day with 'em, it's like a week they say.

Yeah. If you spend a week, it's like a month. Easily. Yeah, absolutely. Easily. It's like the experiences you have and, and the steps that you take on there, it's just a very different kind of magnitude than it would be in a regular day to day type thing. Thing. Absolutely. Nothing's mechanical. No. You know, and it's, it's not like there's like wasted moments.

If you sit down and you get a coffee, you could almost remember the conversation you had. Yeah. You know, however long ago. Yeah. And, uh. Uh, it's just, it's, it's quite a thing. It's, it's hard to [00:10:00] really kind of, uh, to kind of encapsulate it in words. But when you're out there, the, the way your mind's kind of just working and the way your body's working with it and the simplicity, the, the things are kind of just going at it, it is just different.

I remember things like shade and sun would be like, shade, you know? Yeah. That would be like a big, big factor in the day. You had something simple like shade. You'd walk in it, you know? And I still do it to this day. Like, I, I went, uh, I went golfing last year with one of the, now he's the chief of the job.

He was a captain then. Very good golfer. And we're over at, you know, trig's local golf course, and I'm driving the cart and I, you know, I try to pull in the shade. He's yelling at me, oh, you getting too far away. This sounds well, I like the shade. You know, since then I've been like that. It's like, you appreciate little things like that more.

You know? Yeah. Things are, it's like you said, it, it simplifies life. It really does. Now, before you went on that first one in 2012 on the ese, what were some of your expectations? So you just, you were exposed to it through the movie, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so what did you expect? I didn't know how I was gonna hold up physically on it because it's like 500 miles, you know?

And, uh, I don't think most people usually walk 500 miles. You know, the, the only advantage I had, uh, one of my friends was very well traveled [00:11:00] and, you know, uh, he had done the Appalachian Trail and we grew up together and, you know, that one's like 2200 miles and it's a, it's a tougher, uh, hike for not doing it in regards to, to that, just 'cause it's very mountainous and, uh, it's wet, you know?

Whereas like the Camino I, I made up pretty well as far as rain was concerned, you know, and the gear was, wasn't a bit a bad thing. How big a pack did you take? I believe I took a bigger one than I should have, but I wanted to keep the weight low. I wanted 10% of my body. Okay. So you, did you go with that? I, yeah, I did.

I can't remember exactly what it wound up weighing, you know, once it was saying done. But I brought one of the, the sleeping mats. Yep. And my friends would joke, it was like a sail basically come the end. 'cause when it's windy Yeah. That thing's blowing you all over the place. It doesn't weigh anything. But the actual like massive of it, I guess, for lack of a better word, it would definitely catch the wind on you, you know.

That's funny. And that was kind of a thing. And the sleeping bag that I brought was a warmer sleeping bag than I should have brought. Like one of my friends brought one, like the uh, was basically like a sleeping sheet, you know. Oh, my wife is taking, taking that like almost got silk. It's called like a cocoon or something.

That sounds about, yeah. Yeah, I'd see that. Yeah. That's appropriate for the summer. Oh, it was great once you hit that glacier region and it gets cold. Yeah. And at [00:12:00] that point it was nice having the other bag, but given the option, I would've arrived, just had the sheet. And the second time I did that. Right.

If you had the option. I think that, um. Out of the nine times I've done it, I've taken, I've, I know I've taken at least four bags and I've left all of them in Spain. So, yeah, I look at, my God, I can't carry this. Wow. I don't know why I do that. The, uh, the, the packing though was definitely like a question mark.

The shoes was a question mark as well. I got a pair of boots, I think I got, I think it was Morell's and supposed to be a good boot and lasts a long time. And I get a lot of use outta the sneakers, but I'm kind of tough on them. They were completely destroyed come the end. Wow. Completely destroyed. Like the soles were separating and everything.

Completely, completely toast. Um, it just, uh, the list that I would've brought with me was, uh, salt Lake stuff that was referenced in one of the guidebooks. You know, and that was very helpful. Some things they sent in the guidebook, like, don't take pictures, just observe the scenery. I get where the Santa took pictures though.

I know. Yeah. That's cool. I, I don't take a ton, but I, you know, I had to have some, and, uh, I mean, sunblock was one of the things I was factoring in. The amount of changes of clothes was a big thing. And that's one thing one of my buddies had recommended. He says, you know, you just, you know, rather than carry around a bunch of dirty laundry, just wear and wash stuff.

And that was pretty much what I wound up [00:13:00] going with. It was a good call. And as you're going, you see people have like their clothes pinned onto the back of backpacks and Absolutely. Right, right. I lost like a sock in the morning on a clothes line somewhere. And then later on you, you're just down one sock and eventually hit a store where you can buy one.

I remember I met a couple of my friends, uh, they were gonna San Sebastian, so I took a bus up to San Sebastian, meet them, and somehow I had lost like a pair of underwear. I think I brought like two, but. You need them, you know? Yeah. So I'm trying to find a pair there now. Like over there, everything's like all European, you know?

It's not, it's not the same really. It's the same stuff. Not really. No, it's not. It's not. No. So like, I'm trying to find something there and, uh, it's like comical and like, I wind up finding a pair at the store when I'm with, you know, my buddy, it insists I take a picture holding them up just as a joke, you know, the picture's still surfaced somewhere.

I, I'm not gonna dig it out because it is buried, but like, uh, he's still, he's still like, if it pops up in the feed, he'll still send it as like a joke, you know? And then, uh, from San Sebastian, I hitchhike back, which I've never hitchhiked anywhere in my life. And it's. It, it was kind of a cool thing to do too, you know?

'cause the bag was bigger probably than it should have been. Like I said, mass wise with the sleeping bag and the sleeping pack and the cars are [00:14:00] smaller there. And then obviously you feel a little bit weird about hitchhiking because you know, all you're gonna hear is negative stuff, you know, for the most part.

And, uh, nobody wants to be involved in that, you know? Right, right, right. But, uh, I remember one of my friends I used to play softball with, uh, he said when he graduated high school, he wanted hitchhiking across the country. And he said him and his buddy did it, and they had like about 300 different rides they figured with the math.

And he said it was only maybe like two or three negative experiences. And by coincidence, the very first one was a negative experience. So I had that in my mind, but I also knew there was gonna be a lot of boundaries I had across in this process of, of getting to Sania. And as it turned out, it worked out fine with the hitchhiking, you know, and I got dropped off.

Uh. I don't think it was Pamona I got dropped off at, but whatever point of the community I got dropped off at, they had a smaller bull run there as well, like the big ones in Pamona, but they had a small one. Okay. That's interesting. And I don't remember where it was now, but I remember I, well Lincoln up with my friends that I had met earlier, uh, Cormick was, was uh, the guy that just graduated university and he met another kid.

Uh, [00:15:00] it's funny you mentioned you get along with most of the people there. He was maybe one of the ones who was a little, little much for me. You know, it's like, uh. Kind of like a loud, rowdy, drunk type thing, you know? It's just like, uh, you know, I worked in Boz for a long time earlier and like there's certain things my, my bandwidth was just Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, a little bit thinner with, you know. No, I understand that. How did you prepare for that? Did you, did you work out and stuff? Were you already in good shape? I, yeah, I kept in pretty good shape normally. Um, and I think I, I basically just started doing a little bit more walking. Okay. You know, uh, and I know that was one thing I had heard was just you wanna walk and get your shoes in shape for it, you know?

And break the shoes in. Break the shoes in, which. Uh, I think for, for most people it would probably be the most doable and helpful thing you could do is have your shoes ready to go. Absolutely. Because if you have new shoes like this, more recent one I did last year, I didn't have enough time to get my shoes ready and I knew it, but I, you know, I did maybe like a week or two with my shoes, probably more like a week, and my feet were completely blistered.

I used Hoka Trail Runners this time, the previous time I'd used like a regular hiking boot, the Morell hiking boot. Right. Uh, as far as which one was better, I think probably a trail runner that's broken in would be more [00:16:00] practical for most people. But the, uh, the hiking boot was nice for the mountain pots, but as far as the street pots, I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah. But if it's like a milder trail running shoe that's broken in, I think that'd be good. But, uh, I remember I didn't really have any issues with blisters the first time, so I'd say that was probably the first thing that I did that was most helpful. I might've put a backpack on or a weight vest to walk around a little bit.

But some things you kind of feel like a little weird walking around with like a weight vest. Well, if I'm working out, I, I have the trekking poles and people like beeping, ah, weight. Oh yeah. But they, they help, you know, with the hips and the knees, you know. Ah, the trekking poles are nice. Yeah, they are nice.

Yeah, those are good. I use those actually, uh, the first time. Uh, did I use them the second time? I don't, I don't think I used 'em the second time, but. The Portuguese Way was the one I did the second time. It was a little bit shorter. Yeah. Uh, and on that same trip, uh, I did another, that tour to Mount Blanc. I did use Poles for, for Mount Blanc, you know, but, um, I did the Camino and then Mount Blanc.

Now where's Mount Blanc? Mount Blanc is, is, it's in the Alps. Okay. And it's where? France, Switzerland, and, uh, France, Switzerland in Germany. And Italy. Italy touch. Okay. So it's like, uh, what's the elevation of [00:17:00] that? You know, I'd be lying if I told you I knew probably around 14,000 feet. It's all meters, whatever that would be meters.

But like, uh, somewhere in that ranch, I'd be, I'd be guessing at that, you know? Right. But, uh, it's beautiful area, beautiful pot, you know. And, uh, like Cham, uh, France, it was Shamini, France, Switzerland, Italy, those three countries. Wow. But Chamie, France, they had the Olympics that years back, it was probably the nicest place I've ever been.

Really? I'd say so. And like, uh. Was that a multi-day hike or was it just one days? 10 days? Yeah, 10 days. 10 days. Wow. So you basically go, Mont Blanc is, uh, I think it's the second, second biggest mountain in Europe. Okay. You know, but it's like kind of a technical climb if you go to the peak. So rather than that, people do a traverse around the perimeter of it, and you kind of go up and down elevation points to like, basically just above where people live and back down where people live and they have all the, the, uh, off season ski huts that people use for, for skiing and you stay there.

Oh, nice. Kind of like the idea of an berger. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's a nice, nice time. Uh, it, it is kind of a little difficult though just because it's, you know, it's a lot of up and down, you know, and then when you get to the, the place you're staying at, like [00:18:00] they have food there for you eating and of course people are drinking and stuff, and.

You know, like I would do the same, but like, if you have any more than a beer, you're gonna feel it the next day. Yeah. Plus the altitude does have a Oh, yeah. An impact on that. Absolutely. That's true. You gotta be careful. Yeah. Um, so what about, um, your experiences in the Al Buress, did that bother you at all?

Do you mind the Burgess, because they can be kind. I'm older now. That's such a good experience, but it, I that's a, that's a great question. So like, uh, they're all so different, you know, some were great, some were like the most like interesting evenings I'll ever have. And for like simple little things, like, I remember one of the, the more noteworthy ones, uh, I was in, I had the guidebook and it says like, how many people in each town?

And it's a town with like, literally like 40 people. And the only, like literally, and you get there and you see the town, you're like, yep, that sounds about right. And you get there and there's just a church in the square and there's maybe like six buildings in the square and the priest is talking in like all these languages that he knows.

I know. Just English, maybe a little bit of Spanglish from that. Yeah. Yeah, me too. And uh, wicked cool guy and he invites everybody in. It was like raining or whatever. He says, you know, I understand everybody might be, you know, super [00:19:00] religious or even, you know, celebrate this religion and, you know, he'd translate all these languages and we basically would say, you know, just wanna let you know.

It's like we're all in this together and we're all gonna have a good time. We're all gonna enjoy the night. And right now we're all family and, uh. He invites everybody from there to to dinner. There was like a little tunnel you go through from the church to like a little hall type thing, and dinner was soup.

I don't know if there was anything in the soup other than broth, but it was great. Everybody sat down, everyone got along good. He kind of had a good way of introducing things and, and kind of like making people feel comfortable. Okay. Whether it was with like, uh, a song he had or different introductions and afterwards, you know, everybody was allowed to sleep there for free, which most of the places, uh, they charge a little bit.

Yeah. Used was like 10 euro. Yeah, it was, it was very, I think I was there too. I don't remember where that was, but I had that similar experience with the soup and I don't remember much else. I just remember the soup, but yeah. And the, uh, the beds, I remember like, uh, it wasn't really a yoga mat, but like when I worked in phys ed, they had these other mats.

It was almost like a stretching mat. It was like a one inch thick. Foam mat encased in like a vinyl and that was the [00:20:00] bed. Right. And you could, you know how it would've got clean with like a Windex Absolutely. Thing or something at best. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And people would help out and clean and everything.

And like, you slept like a baby. Yeah. You were just so relaxed. And, uh, it was a, a fantastic experience experienced there. And then there'd be other ones that maybe be a little bit more so the other side of the coin, uh, I don't remember the names of the towns, but I think the very first night, the place I stayed, it was a massive berger.

I don't know how many people would've been in there, but upwards of a hundred I'd say. Were you Ron Phase? Yes. Okay. That's just where it was. La Pasada. Was it? Was it the brand new one? Because now it's, they have a brand new monastery. I mean, they took a monastery or was it older? I don't remember. It was big.

Was it like the movie? I. Yeah, it was a couple floors and uh, a lot of bed, all bunk beds, tons of people. And there'd be certain things you'd hear. Like I remember like people would joke about the next day, uh, Jeff and Natasha with the Irish couple, uh, that I had met the first day in St. John. I remember walking the next day and Natasha was like a character [00:21:00] and she was saying, uh, in like a way somebody from island could kind of only verse so well, she's like, oh yeah, they getting the bags going and this and that.

Waking everybody up and then, you know, that's true. This was burping and this one's fine. And I was, oh, it, but it was like exactly that situation. Right, right, right. You know, and like once people start getting up and you know, they get going with the bags and it kind of turns into like a little bit of like a, uh, a hectic situation.

'cause you're trying to kind of get your stuff together. I. And you're trying to be quiet, but it's really, it's always impossible. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what people, that's a, a good thing to like, um, to, to mention that, you know, when you live, when you're gonna, uh, sleep in these El Bura, you're gonna have to accept what, what that that means.

And part of that is you're gonna be disturbed, people are gonna snore people, you know, they're gonna get up in the middle of the night and go to the bathroom. They're gonna turn their, um. Their phone light on. It's just the nature of it. Percent get up at four 30 in the morning Yep. And they're gonna take off.

You know what I mean? Yep. And you get a lot of perspective from the Berger and like, kind of like what you appreciate and what you can control. Yeah. You know, and like, what an advantage you have by that. And you can start getting up at four 30 in the morning, kind of race to the X Berger and rush through everything that you, you flew across the world to get to.

So you can have a [00:22:00] bed in that situation to do it again the next day, you know? Yeah. And then no, I would, yeah, we definitely, that's not the best way, but for maybe for some That's sure. For some, absolutely. And like, there's different ways and there's different strokes of different folks. But after a while, uh, both times I went, I, I, I, I kind of decided pretty quickly like, that's, that's not gonna be for me, like one of the, one of the best experiences I had, notable, not best, but notable experience I had in Alberte was the second Camino.

I don't mean to jump around, but just 'cause it's, we're talking the Berger, uh, I was in Portugal and I want to, you know, stay at the Berger and eventually land at it. And it's, you know, it, a lot of them are kind of a little bit more like a, a church influence, which I liked and they're very kind of clean and very peaceful and it's like a serene kind of atmosphere.

And then some are more like a hostile, you know, where it's like, not really the, it's not the same vibe sort of, you know, it's, yeah. You definitely have different vibes. Yeah. And like, this was like that kind of thing. And uh, I remember I get set up in the bed, I'm sleeping in and, you know, people weren't like.

Uh, very overwhelmingly welcoming in this [00:23:00] particular one. Not that they weren't, but like there was just too much else going on. Yeah. Sort of, you know, and, uh, I remember I, you know, I sleep there and I'm exhausted. It's like the first spot I'm staying, I think. And, uh, I can't sleep well. I'm tossing turn a little bit and I see somebody get up and they have their, they're like a big cigarette lighter to find their way out of the room.

And I'm watching the whole thing 'cause I can't sleep. Right, right. I'm just observing. And the person walks into somebody's bunk bed and wakes them up. And it's a lady who's obviously very uncomfortable with sleeping in a, in a group atmosphere like that. And she screams like. Bloody murder. 'cause she's, you know, she's terrified.

Right, right, right. She gets woken up by some random stranger holding a lighter Yeah. A couple feet from her face, you know, and I just watched the whole thing unfold and eventually the guy makes the way outta the room and he's like, oh, the lady's crazy. And, you know, that kind of stuff. And I'm just like, oh, this is such a show.

Yeah. Yeah. Like that was a very, uh, negative, I'd say experience for that woman. For me it was semi entertaining. Yeah. Right, right, right. Like, no harm came from it. Right. But it was definitely like, uh, a [00:24:00] stressful one for her, I'm sure. Right. Whereas in reality, like most of the time, uh, I've never seen a bad thing happen on Alberta.

I'll say that. Right. I've seen things like that where things aren't received the right way. Uh, but most of the time they're, they're pretty positive experiences. A lot of times they have the food there, which is like. I have a pretty, a pretty good, uh, you know, appetite and I enjoy most foods and I thought everything was very good.

And I appreciate every, every bite I got there. I didn't have any bad meals. I would say by any means. I appreciate all of them and everything tastes good. And you've been walking all day. That's true. And most of the time, like the company that you, you have at the table, like I live by myself, so it's like having that much, uh, company at the table.

It's pretty interesting. Yeah, it's always interesting. It's pretty nice. There's phenomenal conversations, people from all over the place and you get a lot of introductions at that. And then when you're actually walking, you can expand upon those introductions you had because you kind of learn real quick, who you click with.

And um, some people you just meet once and you never see 'em again the rest of your life. And then other people, it's like your brothers coming into the thing, you know? And, um. Like to be, to be dead honest, like part of me still thinks like, uh, retirement wise and things like that, like I couldn't see [00:25:00] myself like just volunteering in one of M mo berges and like scrubbing toilets and mopping floors.

Yeah, yeah. And enjoying it. No, I understand that. You know, because No, that's a, you know, serving people is definitely, you know, something that, uh, as Christians are called to do, right. To serve. Yeah. It's just that perspective, it's just such a big thing. There's so much to gain from perspective, I think.

Absolutely. And I think that Camino teaches an awful lot about that. You know, it's like, uh, it's, it's a, it's a strange, it's a strange kind of like way kind of inch away through your soul a little bit and like kind of figure out what makes you tick and how people operate and like. What matters. And it's just the things you think about is like one of the big things there too, because Right, and everything is stripped away.

So like you could be talking to, who knows, you know, but you're on the Camino, so those things don't matter. Like a dentist or a lawyer or whatever, you know, it doesn't matter, you know, it's just that we're all the same in a lot of ways. So those things don't, you know, don't stratify us, but the, the communal brings us together.

Yeah. It's different, different, uh, different sets of worries. Like, even like, I'll give an example. Like today, you know, we we're doing a podcast right now, thankfully right through my office, which is nice. I feel bad. Didn't cut the [00:26:00] grass before I got here. Thinking like, stuff like that is like, that's a common worry here.

I'm like, oh, I gotta clean up a little bit and cut the grass. All that kind of like little stuff. Right. All of it's out of the equation. Yeah. Yeah. So many things just outta the equation. You're out there and you think of the stuff that you have with you. 'cause it's pretty limited. Like I, like I said, I try keeping 10% of my body weight for the pack.

That's not easy to do. 10% is definitely, I know that's the formula they say. That's definitely, yeah. That's not a ton of stuff. I'll tell you like, uh, over the years from different trips I've taken, I, I've kind of gotten a lot more into the habit of packing light and I'll do my laundry when I'm outta place, or I'll buy new clothing while I'm there.

If I choose if something else is just TAed, you know. And, uh, I much, much, much prefer I keeping less stuff on me and just really simplifying things. And I feel it's just a, a better way to go. I'm not bound down by this stuff as much. It's like Right, right. I've never succeeded in packing. Well, so, uh, last year, because I had the, uh, I started the, the podcast on the Camino.

I had a computer, I had all of this stuff and, you know, I had the, the, the recorder, the microphones. And so my pack was way too heavy for, for me at this stage in my life, you know? Mm-hmm. It was like 24 [00:27:00] pounds. Yeah. Which was way too heavy. And so by the end, it really was a, a problem for me, you know what I mean?

Because instead of getting stronger, I, I just kind of like, it broke me down, I think. You know what I mean? So, yeah. I need like 12 pounds, you know what I mean? I no more than that. Yeah. Oh yeah. Absolutely. Like the one I did in, uh, in Portugal, I wanna say the, the pack was, I eight pounds can't be right. Wow.

I can't, it could be though. I did an LL being 33 liter a pack. It's a ruck sack. You know what? 30, I think 33 is, is an excellent size. That's the size I'd recommend, because with that, like, technically you can't use that as like a. I don't think they call it carry on, but personal item on a plan. Oh, you can't, you can, but technically, like measurement wise, you can't.

Okay. But like what I would do, I'd use that and if it's the type of thing where like I have a real company person that doesn't wanna let me on, they wanna charge me the extra money, I just throw on one of the extra shirts or whatever that I had in the bag. Right. And then jamming in the little thing that they have there at the airport, like, your bag has to fit in here, type thing.

Oh, okay. And they'll do that. And then once I'm through that area, then I just, you know, take that extra layer shirt off and, and put it back in. Just, it sounds like a, a cheapness move. And It is. [00:28:00] It is. But it, no, but that, that size a pack, I mean that's a, that's a, you know, it's a very modest pack. Very modest.

Yeah. And the thing with it, when you start checking stuff, then you have to wait for the stuff. And if you have connection flights, that's a factor. And if it gets lost, it's a factor. My wife and I lo, we had, um, my wife spent, she had like a 25 liter pack. And it was kind of a funky pack and she spent a lot of time packing that thing.

She packed it, unpacked it, packed it three or four times. Mm-hmm. And she got it down. And, um, she was really happy with, with the size of the pack. And we were going from Boston to JFK and they got stuck. All our stuff got stuck in JFK. Oh know. And so when we got to France, we had to actually, when we got to St.

John, they have that, that specialty shop, we had to go and buy everything. Oh. Um, I always wear at least one, you know, I wear my boots, I wear, you know, a, a set of clothing. But she had, she hadn't done that, so she had to buy boots. We spent like 1500 bucks to, you know, purchase everything that we needed. So you need it though, you know, what are you gonna do the one thing when you are over there, Ray?

Don't spend too much money. No. Uh, on a lot of the other stuff. The day-to-day stuff, like the, the, the price tag on the Camino was low. So what would you spend a day I. So you got breakfast? Would you have breakfast? Uh, yeah. Actually, I, I feel bad. I, I should have made it up. I was gonna make up, so I didn't have, I just ran outta time.

Like, I forget what they called it, tortilla. That might have been [00:29:00] it. The little tortilla. It was like the potato and egg and the pan. They cut it like a pizza. Yep. Yep. And you'd eat them so much and like I could see how some people would get sick of 'em. I loved them. Yeah. Okay. After I got back, I was still making them for months afterwards.

I haven't made one in a while. But they were just phenomenal. So, tortilla, would you have coffee in the morning? Yeah, I'd have coffee, but I wasn't a big coffee drinker. Really? Uh, okay. Yet, you know, like I, I would have coffee. They had this other thing called Aquarius. Oh yeah. It, it was basically a Gatorade and it came in a can.

Yep. But the thing is, when you're in Spain in the summertime, it's hot. It's hot. Yeah. And like you're walking and everything And like, I used to have a lot of Gatorade back then. Now I drink a lot more water. Right. And I still kind of like, now it's more, more water. When I went the second Camino, mostly water, uh, and coffee.

Right. But the coffee is kind of like, I don't know, I think it kind of, uh, it can have a negative impact too, you know? Uh, well dehydrates, you know what I mean? Yeah. It dehydrates you a bit, you know. Uh, the Aquarius were very good. And the other thing I used to love when you're walking, 'cause everywhere would have it, would be the ice cream bars.

Oh, I love those. Oh, those are good. Especially the white chocolate. I went through a lot of those things. A lot of them. And, uh. Those were kind of my staples. It's the ice cream bars, the aquariuses, uh, I, I would've coffee in the morning, [00:30:00] but the egg thing was kind of more, more up my alley. Um, a lot of times the Albertos, I don't really remember too many with breakfast.

No, that's not common. Yeah, I don't remember that. If you only get a hotel type of place, sometimes they have a buffet or something, but if you are in Alberta now, they, they don't have much. No, but my wife was good. She always, she would always find something there. She'd be like, oh no, there were cookies. And I did make coffee or tea, and I'd be like, oh, I forget.

I never, I would get up and just walk out of the, I never had breakfast, but, uh, yeah. So for, for the, the cost of a day. So breakfast was like 10 Euro, maybe Max, right? Max, yeah. I, I, yeah, I'd say that's super max. Like it's going back a little ways now. You're probably looking around there. Alberta probably like that.

I remember they like six, $8 at the time. Now it's probably maybe like 10, 12, 14 it 10 or 12. Yeah. Somewhere in that, when you get closer to 2022, that's more like a private room in the Alberta. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Yep. I like the communal ones though most of the time. Just 'cause it's that experience and like I'm used to like at, at work, we sleep in a communal environment too.

That's true. I mean, for certain ones like you, you're done with it, you tap out and if they have a good deal on one or a nice one, like, or if, like for me, I don't like the top bunk. I can't [00:31:00] stand the top bunk. Oh, they're the worst. Oh, they're the worst. It's the worst. And then you have people come up and they ask the top bunk and they, they'd kind of give you their.

Their reason why they need it more. I get it. You know, it's like, no, I don't like this. I can't get 'cause of the ladder. It'd be like a little, like a mie girl would, I can't reach, I can't pick my bag up. And I'm like, well, you know what? Like I got back problems, you know? Like, I'll, I'll see you. I can't reach it and I'll raise you back problems.

You know? I hear you. You can't say that though. You know, it's funny. You wouldn't even think that's an issue, but at like the top bunk, I'd be like, oh, because in the middle of the night after the bathroom, I get any, it's dark when I was 14 years old or or nine. I love it. Yeah. I'm 45 years old now. Like that top bunk.

I'm all set, you know? Yeah. And then just like I, I roll around a lot too. Yeah. Yeah. Because for like ess, like I guarantee you if I'm sleeping there versus other people, like they're talking negatively or at least think of it as like, oh boy, what's that? An alligator up there rolling around so much. How could someone make so much noise?

You know? Yeah. That's life. That's, and then there's always a sno. That wouldn't really bother me so much if you're a Sno. Yeah. So there's always that. You get the steers in the morning. Oh, [00:32:00] sorry, whatcha whatcha gonna do? Sometimes you make friends though. Yeah, right. Some of it, like, it would be kind of, you know, 'cause there's some, there's some funny stuff that happens there.

You get a good, you get a lot of good laughs in there, depending how things were addressed and like, well last, last year I was, uh, having dinner by myself and this woman, these two women said, oh, have dinner with us. So this one woman, she had been on the road for four months since I forget where she had left from, but she had been walking for four months and she was gonna end up doing like 2,500 kilometers, whatever.

And she started ranking on older men who had to get up in the night to go to the bathroom. I'm like, whatcha gonna do, man? Yeah, it's a hundred percent. It's life. It's definitely gonna happen. There's zero chance I make go to the bathroom. There's zero chance of that. Zero. No, I was like, uh, but uh, that's the nature of it.

If you want to stay in the Al Bga. It's part of it though. That's part of the, the experience. Yeah. It's 10 euro. Yeah. And like figure they were probably a thousand years back, you would figure out where you're gonna sleep. Yeah. And if you had a roof over your head, you were happy. Right. Especially if it was raining.

Right. You know, that took care of all that stuff. And the days, particularly when it was raining where you couldn't get alberter, I remember, uh, you know, kind of, I don't mean to circle away from the Berger topic, but I remember we had trouble finding one in one little town we were in, there was an abandoned house.

Me and five or six people just abandoned together. We slept in the abandoned house. That's like the movie. Yeah. Well, most of the stuff, that movie was pretty accurate. Yeah. No, I love that movie. And actually, um, I had forgotten that part. Actually. They did that in there too. Well, outside of that abandoned house, they, they slept under the, like, like there was like a portico.

Okay. And then in the morning, that's when [00:33:00] she slaps him, you know, they, he drops the, uh, his son's ashes and she goes to grab it. Yep. And he goes, no, no. And then she slapped him. Oh yes. Yeah. I've only seen it 72 times. Yeah. But, uh, uh, no. But, uh, I was gonna see something about the, the film, um. We were talking about the alberter, the experience of sleeping in there.

Uh, sometimes like the laughs you have the snores the bathroom. Well, I did tell, uh, um, you know, Steve at the gym? Mm-hmm. I was telling him about the, uh, about the, um, the whole experience. And my wife is going four times and three out of the four she was, uh, bitten by bedbugs. Okay. Oh, wow. Now I've been bitten and they're just like little, a little, not even a rash, but she has a, a reaction to them.

Yeah. And she gets blistered and stuff. So she's had a, a tough, you know. Yep. Um, so she does have some, some type of, uh, allergy to those things. So we have also No problem. I told Steve that. He goes, I'll never go on that. I said, well, that's not, it's not that common. I mean, for my wife it is. Yeah. But for the most part, I've been bitten, but not, you know, nothing serious.

Yeah. I, you know, I'll tell you, uh, the first time I went, uh, I, I probably didn't have a, a very good, I. Idea of everything with bedbugs, because I hadn't ever had them. Yeah, most of those haven't. Uh, the following summer I went to Honduras for the summer and I stayed in night there scuba diving. Uh, and when I was over there I caught bedbugs, uh uh, I'm sorry.

Uh, maybe it was actually, it was before it was Costa Rica. Okay. You know, it was different, different summer. I caught [00:34:00] bedbugs there and one of my friends researched everything, oh, here's what we gotta do with this and that. We took books, put 'em in the freezer and all sorts of stuff, you know, ways. Yeah. You could definitely kill 'em.

Yeah. It worked. And, uh. In the Camino, I didn't have any issues that first time. The second time I was a little bit more aware of it and I read a little bit more on it. And certain things, like, like a wooden frame bed is more of a, uh, an environment that the bed bugs, like, because where the, the boards would meet like the horizontal and vertical pieces, they'll hang out in that little crevice.

Oh, okay. And then they kind of walk on wherever they have to go from there. Whereas the metal beds, I guess they aren't as common. Okay. So that's something I had never known, but I paid attention to in the second time once I, 'cause I didn't want get them the second time. Now it's painful. It's like embarrassing too.

'cause it's gross Right know. I know. And you know, when someone has it, it's like, it's not like you're completely ostracized. If you do, it's a b leprosy, right? Yeah, it is though. Have to wear the bell. Yeah. It's kind of like, yeah. So, uh, the second time I went I was actually in Santiago 'cause uh. Like I said, I went there and I went to tour to Mount Blanc.

Um, but I think I did that one first. I did not want to catch bedbugs 'cause that was a big issue in Mount Blanc as well. Really just 'cause any of those communal environments, uh, you're gonna really be paying [00:35:00] attention. I remember seeing a little bug 'cause I was checking my back a lot. That's a nice advantage too, to a smaller pack.

Right. 'cause you can check things a lot easier. And I saw a little bug at one point and, you know, I, I took care of him obviously, and that was the end of him. Right. But, uh, that's all it takes sometimes, you know? Yeah. It's like, 'cause you don't know, you gotta really kind of check everything the best you can.

And even with that, like it, you know, it's kind of like finding a tick on a dog, you know? It's very tough to kind of, to police the situation a hundred percent all the time. Oh, it's difficult. Yeah. Forget it. You know, a lot of times, I remember last year I was in a town and um, I was exhausted. Right. And so I.

It was, I was in Alberta and it was like, uh, probably about 20 bunk beds in the room. Big room. Mm-hmm. And I just fell asleep with my, you know, a t-shirt and shorts on. And I woke up like one o'clock in the morning. I was freezing. And I looked around the room, there's a pile of blankets, and I went over, I said, I don't care.

Oh, no. Oh no. But I was fine, thank goodness, you know. Oh, good, good. You never know though. But I said I don't even care. That was one thing with the, uh, the sleeping sheet, like I had, uh, I used the second time. I found that very beneficial. And a lot of the places, I don't think it's much in the Camino, but in Mount Blanc, which is like kind of a good.

Bit of experience for the Camino, they required you to use at least a sleeping sheet. Okay. They don't want [00:36:00] you just rolling up with like the communal blankets because of that. That was me. Well, not because you, but just because No, right. You know, collectively it's like Right. You know, it's, that's the Petri dish for a bed bucks.

Of course. You know, and that, that, that sheet is only, you can roll it up like this. Oh, it's, it's tired. Yeah. So I might bring you one of those if I go this summer. Yeah. Those are pretty good. I thought. And like in reality, most of the time you're just fine. You would be cold like that glacier region. It does get chillier.

Yeah. You know, I, I found, you know. Right, right. And there was some nights where you get cold, I burn, you know, I put block on of course. But when you're in the sun all day, and then if you burn and you know, a couple days after, you can be pretty chilly. Your skin just doesn't really adjust, you know? Right, right, right.

But, um, all things involved having it less space and lighter and a more like. Nimble pack. I would rather be a little Culver and maybe sleep in extra clothing or layer up or Right. Do like, one thing I found was like imperative, uh, on there was a, uh, a good rain shell. Oh, absolutely. Those were like imperative.

'cause that's also like your jacket too. Yeah. Some people like the, the ponchos. I don't love the ponchos. I, [00:37:00] I'd rather bring a shell. Yeah. You know, and my wife loves the Panchos. 'cause it doubles as a bathroom too. Yep. The poncho, they can just go out in the field, you know? Oh, that's true. Yeah. So she liked that.

I thought the travel towel was a good one too. Did you use those ever? There's almost like a shammy. Yeah. Yeah. I thought those were pretty good. And at points that travel towel was your wardrobe by laundry days. Yeah, I remember walking in certain places. 'cause it's a little different in Spain. And if you literally just walked around the town with a travel towel and flip flops, like you're not exactly in style.

But you're not really gonna get arrested if it's laundry day either. No. You'll get some dirty looks. People aren't impressed. Right, right, right, right. They definitely, they don't want you in their shop, but if you go in there for your ice cream Ry Aquarius, that's fine. They'll still sell it to you. You know, that's funny.

But, uh, I found the travel towel very, very helpful. Uh, some sort of a shower shoe is necessary. Absolutely. No, absolutely. Yeah. And like the size of the shower shoe I thought was very important too, because some are very bulky and big and they are really kind of gobble up your pack space. So the best ones, I actually thought they don't last long, but the dollar star [00:38:00] ones, it's just like the cheapest little flip flop you could get.

Right. I found that pretty, pretty good. Uh, I bring all synthetics for the most part. I prefer cotton, you know, for shirts, but they don't necessarily wash as well. You know, the, the shorts I would definitely do synthetic. Uh, shorts, uh, the socks. I think a good pair of hiking socks was good. And REI, uh, has socks.

It sounds ridiculous, like I would never thought like socks would make much of a difference, but the quality of the socks, they don't rip and you can wash 'em. Socks are huge. They take a big beating. And I, some, I wouldn't be surprised if I still have socks in my drawer from 2012 that I got from REI then, and they were just like, like these, I'm not wearing, these are just like cheap ones.

But if you just wear like a cheap fruit of the loom sock over there, you're not gonna have as good of an experience. No. I always buy the wool socks. Like the smart wool, small wool are great. Yeah. Like great. I use, yeah. Even my underwear is wool. Yeah. And I take this, I have another one I wear to, uh, I wear this to, um, to work out, but I have another one that's basically, um, tattered and torn.

But, uh, so I mostly wool. Yeah. And then my shirts, I love cotton, but it does retain the water, so it sure does. So I might wear cotton after I'm done. Yep. Like at night. But during the day it's something synthetic. I like the cotton for the breathability of a shirt, but it just, you gotta kind of go synthetic, I think.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Like I might've started with cotton and throw 'em out and [00:39:00] got synthetic, but like, um, even now, like if I go hiking somewhere around here, I might start with cotton, but it just soaked after a while. That's it. Just, that's, it just doesn't move the moisture the way you need it to. And then you gotta switch anyway.

But, um, I thought the length of the sock was a big thing too, because if it's, you know, if it's too short of a sock, uh, it might kind of like slip down down your shoe a little bit, you know, and wind up underneath the heel that's uncomfortable. And if it's too long of a sock, it just takes up too much pack space.

Right. And there's certain areas where you might go through a little bit of brush. And like a little bit of thickets, but not many. Most of it's essentially like urban walking, you know? And, uh, no, it's very civilized. That's what I've said in the podcast in the past, that the Camino was very civilized, you know, at the beginning.

It's tough if you're gonna start in St. John and you go into the Pyrenees, but it's still civilized, you know, it's still a road, you know what I mean? It's not something like, you have to, you know, you're not climbing, you're just hiking. Yeah. Um, but it definitely, uh, requires some type of like, you know, training if you're gonna go up and over, I think.

Sure. Um, but then, you know, after that you get ber, you got Pona, you got p uh, Pinal, Lorena, you, you know, you don't have, um, yeah. It's not, like I said, it's civilized. It's not bad. No. Like, uh, I brought, um, basically two. Two liquids with me. Uh, one, there's a particular kind of sunblock. I like noad sunblock 'cause it goes on very easy and it works well.

It's almost like a cream. And like, you know, I'm all Irish. I burn. Yeah, yeah. Pretty good if I'm not careful. [00:40:00] And then for a soap, I did, uh, a Dr. Bros. Which it basically said basically you could do anything with it, including brush your teeth, which I would not do, you know, because like, you know, is that from REI?

They got it at REI. Okay. It's kinda like a, like they definitely have it there, but it's kind of like, like a, like a, I don't wanna say hippie thing, but like, it is, you know, like a yoga thing, any of that kind of like avenue type stuff, outdoorsy stuff, nature type stuff. It's like a very organic, like, uh, trader Joe's would have it.

Yeah. But, uh, it's basically just a big, a big bottle. You can wash your clothes in, you can wash your hair with, it's like, that's good though. Body scrub. Yeah. That's what you need. Things that, that double or triple, they really do. And like, uh, when you. When you're trying not to check a bag, you take everything you carry on.

You gotta have everything at three ounce bottles. Oh. So I'd have everything in the little three ounce bottles and have it all labeled the best I can. You're hoping nothing's gonna open up so you tape the top of it while you're, while you're in transition. Right. Right. Just so it doesn't open in your bag.

Right. Which may or may not happen anyway. Right. You know? Right. But it would be helpful if that was the case. And, um, other than that, I, I kept my toiletries pretty basic. Uh, toiletries can be actually a, they can be, they can add up. Oh yeah. Because you need them. Yeah. You a hundred percent need them. And like certain things like.

Like, I remember I clipped my nails before I went, but I think I still had to buy nail clippers when I was there, but I just didn't wanna carry it the whole time. It sounds ridiculous, right? So I buy, yeah, no, I usually bring them because I do have to clip them. I nails. Sure. Yeah. Yep. A lot of little things.

Um, now when, before you, uh, [00:41:00] walk, uh, do you, do you cream your feet at all? Do you put Vaseline or, I don't, no. Okay. No. Is that, did you do that? Did you find it helpful or? Yeah. I mean, yes and no. I mean, I think the most helpful thing is to stop every so many miles and take your shoes off and air them out.

You know what I mean? I think that's the most Oh, that's smart. Yeah. Yeah. But a lot of Europeans use like certain types of creams on their feet, you know, because I've tried it. Yeah. Um, I've still gotten bli. My, my foot strikes kind of like a weird way. They, I have arthritic feet, so mm-hmm. I strike on the pad, so I tend to get a blister on the pad, which is not.

It is very painful. Yeah, I bet I wore arch supports the first time I went. The second time I went, I didn't, 'cause my knees would gimme me trouble. That was one of my biggest fears actually, was my knees. Yeah. Uh, I, I'd mentioned to you, I think prior to us turn the recording, I had surgery about 20 years ago, but at, at the date of the first Camino, it would've been about eight years past the surgery.

Right. And I wasn't sure how they would hold up. Um, I used the hiking poles, which worked great. Yeah, no, they recommended and uh, they are good. Yeah, they're definitely good. And like, it's the type of thing, like if you make it by without it all the power to you, it's, it is very doable. But once you have them, you, it's kind of tough.

Kind of downshifting from them. Yeah. My wife loves them, so a lot of times [00:42:00] I'll carry them and then certain sections I'll use them, you know, so I'm not using 'em all the time. Um, my wife definitely loves 'em. My brother-in-law's gone. He loves the, uh, the poles and, uh. And this summer, you know, if, if I do end up going, the, the gentleman, the two gentlemen I'm going with, I said, you know, you should get poles.

One guy has, uh, a hip replacement. That's always helpful. Oh yeah, he definitely wants some. That's one thing that, uh, unfortunately Boston's like the toughest airport, I think, which, you know, five years reasons. But, uh, they wouldn't let me take the hiking poles this year, which was kind of a bummer because they sell 'em at job lot from time to time and they're like dirt cheap, like $10 or something.

Wow. Because sometimes they're like 130, 150 for nice ones. Yeah. They aren't that good of ones, but they're more than necessary. Yeah. Uh, and they wouldn't let me take them. And the people are nice about, but they got a job to do. Right, right, right. So yeah, you have to pack 'em in, in the bag for the car, you know what I mean?

Usually I have a duffle bag. I put my bag in there, then I put my poles in there. Yeah. And then Then you check it in. Then I check it. Yeah. If you check it, you're fine. Right. But for the carry on, like, yeah. I was in Spain one time coming back home and something happened. I came home early and I said, oh, I'm not gonna be, I had the poles in my hands.

I knew the guy was gonna take them. Yeah. They were like $130 poles. I was like, I was like, I gotta take these. It's a bummer when it happens. 'cause I, I have been able to get them on at points. Really? Yeah. Last summer. I went to nine countries, uh, in [00:43:00] one trip. Wow. And the very first s bylaw was Boston, and they shot me down to the poles and I, I kind of needed them, you know?

Yeah. So I wound up buying some, when I was over there, I bought 'em into, uh, Callier Italy, which is one of the big kind of hubs for that to Mont Blanc. Uh, and I think because of that, I did the, the Camino without Poles from Portugal, you know, and I did, I knew I wasn't gonna make it through the Mount Blanc without Poles.

Right. So I had to get some, so I bought some from there, and then I just gave them to somebody when I was done, because I wasn't going through the hassle again. They were like, I don't know, I think it was just like cheap. It was like rentals or something. They, they sold me for like, you know, 20 euro or something and I just handed them off to someone like, yeah.

'cause you don't lose 'em. Anyway. Yeah. There's a lot of that though. I noticed on the Camino too, there's, uh, kind of like, uh, not necessarily like a lost and found. In, in a lot of the Berger, but people just kind of like pass stuff off. Oh, no. Yeah. I've left so many things, you know, like books was a big one.

Books, I always take too many books. I don't know why I do that, but, oh, that's, I love when people bring books. The thing is, that's a great thing to have while you're there. Yeah. I, no, yeah, I always, I mean, I. I have a ton of books right here on my phone, but I, I don't like reading off the phone. Yeah. I like physically, you know, the physicality of a book.

It's a conversation maker too. Yeah. It's true. When you're at some place, you see when someone's reading certain books, you know, kind of like, it's a nice easy [00:44:00] icebreaker. Right. You know, 'cause you're all just sitting there, you don't know who speaks what language from starters. Sometimes that's true. You see someone reading in English, like that's kind of nice.

Or if someone's reading in Spanish, like, you know who you can ask if there's a question in Spanish, you gotta know if you hear 'em talk in English afterwards, you know? Right. Like it was, it was kind of, plus it's a nice thing to do if you just bunker down in a little bit of shade under a tree at a point.

You want a break, you can just hang out for half an hour, fall asleep and Absolutely. You know, it's a pretty good day at the Camino. Yes. If you had to give five recommendations to someone who's going for the first time, what would they, uh, the those be? I'd say you gotta pick a stopping point. Okay. And I'd say by, by stopping point, I mean to get it.

To make that trip happen. For me, it was buying a ticket first. You know, once I bought the ticket, everything else fell into place. Like I was too afraid about accommodations and the pack and the time off from work. 'cause there's a lot of factors involved. 'cause Yeah, no, there's always a lot of factors because your life is gonna be different for that month.

Absolutely. And you gotta, you gotta give yourself a little bit of time to make those accommodations, to allow your life to have that month off or that month away from the regular existence and then pop back to it. But for me, uh, number one would definitely be buy a ticket. You know, I like [00:45:00] the book, you know, I'm kind of old school nowadays.

I probably buy another book, you know, even though you have everything possible online. I like the books. You know, I thought that was very helpful. I think, uh, I mentioned before, you definitely want to break your shoes in. You know, and as far as like, uh, the shoe itself, there's, there's different theories or different, different ways about it.

But it's nice if you can have a little bit of a, a game plan for what you want to use if it's a boot or if it's a trail runner, you know, whatever's good for you. Uh, like I said, the insoles you might want to use. Um, but that, that amount of equipment, having a little bit of an idea and like packing list, you can look up online, the kind of pack, there's a frame pack, there's a frameless pack, the weight of the pack.

A a teensy bit of like, uh, uh, kind of like, I don't wanna say physical training, but like, you don't want to get slapped in the face with miles a day. Yeah, that's a lot. No, you need, definitely need to. I think if you even do, so if I go this year, it would be three weeks. Mm-hmm. Um, and so it would be a little over 200 miles, like two, two whatever, two 20 maybe.

But I would definitely walk, I would try to walk, um. Every day. Not every day. Probably five days a week for June and July and probably do [00:46:00] five miles a day. Just slow, you know, if I do that, I'll be fine. Yeah. I think, uh, I think anything like a plan of any sort is, is good. If you have a little bit of a timeline, I mean, things are gonna change around and awful lot, but people don't want to get kind of like completely shocked by it.

And some of the, the stuff too, like part of the train, it's not necessarily just like getting miles on your shoes and walking around with a pack. It's, there's gonna be some things that are a little bit uncomfortable as far as like getting up at certain times and, you know, forcing yourself to do something.

Whereas like, it's kinda like a mental training at that point, you know, like if, if you tell yourself you're gonna walk every day for two weeks just to get something going, do it. Yeah. You know, 'cause I mean, if there's that day that you don't, once you're out there, like no one's gonna do the walking for you.

I mean, that's just an extra day you're gonna have to make up for later on. And it shouldn't feel like a task or like a punishment, but it, it should feel like a bit of like, like a, like a victory every day that, that you did something. You don't have to walk far, but you, you do have to go somewhere. And for whatever reasons you might stop.

It might just be you met somebody cool. It might be, you know, it started raining, the place was [00:47:00] comfortable, you know, you're, you're gonna have something that hurts at some point. I think almost everybody else, like something they feel on their feet. Oh, absolutely. Or like their knee. And for everybody's personal situation, it's, it's a, it's a game changer.

It's a total stop. It's a, it's a, yeah, but situation when someone says, well, I heard this the other day, but now it's fine. Like, oh yeah, but you know, I had surgery. This, like, I get it. But, um, there's, there's gonna be something that comes up that's an obstacle. Oh, absolutely. And like, if you can kind of like.

Sort of like, prepare yourself for that any way you can. Uh, it's, it's probably pretty beneficial. Obviously if you get anybody you can talk to to ask a little bit about it, that's a pretty good option. Um, I might lost track of the five things there that, but definitely the ticket, definitely the shoes for sure.

Definitely the pack and the weight of it. Uh, and I think definitely at least trying to get the idea of like walking a little bit. 'cause some of the stuff, as much as you have to break your shoes in, you might have to just, you break your bones and your joints and, and your body in a little bit too. It's not like it's not able to do it, but just, it might be a little bit shocked that it's doing it, you know?

Um, yeah. And definitely walk your own pace. That's another thing too, like last summer. When I was alone, I would walk my own pace, but sometimes when I was with the, the younger guys, you know, uh, I would get into their pace, which was really, I mean, it was, you know, um, I enjoyed it, [00:48:00] but it's kind of detrimental because ultimately I, you know, it weirds you down.

That's a great point. Like, that's one thing I kind of noticed too is, uh, even when I'm walking with people, like some, like, like I said, like when I, by myself, there's a lot of stuff I do, just me. So if I'm walking with somebody and they're even staying too close to me walking, like that even throws me off a little bit.

Yeah. You know, you gotta pack on already. Yeah. And like if you going down rocky terrain, hilly terrain, someone's right next to you. Yeah. Like you, you balance a little bit off. It's, you gotta kind of move at, at a, a rhythm, at a pace, in a way that absolutely, that makes sense for you. And you can do it the other way.

But sometimes if someone's moving at a different rhythm or a different pace, it just might not be the person you should be walking with. Right, right. You know, it really is the people. If you're with, if you're with the right crowd, you're gonna have a good time. Oh, absolutely. It's true. That's like life, right?

Yeah. We're with the right crowd. Yeah. Alright, brother. Hey, that was great. God bless. Thank you for having me. Thanks Fred. Glad you talked me into it. Actually, that's it when Camino.