Vol. 2-Episode 2: Sharing the Road with Two Dominican Friars

In this episode, Father John Baptist and Father Jerome, two Dominican Friars from the Province of Saint Joseph in the United States, share their expectations of the road before we actually begin our trek across the Meseta. The interview was conducted in an albergue in Burgos on August 5th. Our conversation is filled with the excitement and the uncertainties commonly faced by most pilgrims venturing out on their first Camino. Have a listen and enjoy!

Transcript

Vol 2 Episode 2: Sharing the Road

Host: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of These Holy Bones. A podcast about the ancient pilgrimage to the Cathedral of Santiago, where the bones of St. James are interred beneath the high altar. I'm your host, Robert Nerney. This episode is being sponsored by Ocean Magic Surf and Skateboard Superstore in Jupiter, Florida.

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Host: Swing by Ocean Magic and Jupiter, just minutes from the water, ocean magic, surf, and skate. Florida's home for all things surf. Skate and stoke. Check it out. I'm in Burgos with two very good friends, um, father John Baptist Coup and Father Jerome. And they're both Dominican Friars from the province of St. Joseph.

Host: And, uh, so first I'm gonna ask them both to talk about why they came on this Camino. And this Camino is gonna be pretty interesting. Tomorrow will be our first day, uh, on the mess. The first day of walking, and tomorrow is about 13 miles. And we will cross the messa to Leone. And from there we'll take a train or a bus to Sarria.

Speaker: From Sarria, we'll go to Santiago and maybe onto the ocean. So it'll be about approximately 225, 250 miles total. Uh, God willing. [00:02:00] So Father, Father Ku, welcome. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and then tell us why you came. 

Ku: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Nerney. Yes. So I was born in Manhattan.

Ku: I grew up in Virginia Fairfax. It's Northern Virginia. I went to the University of Virginia and then later entered the Dominicans after working for five years at at and t. And I worked in a parish for three years in Providence, Rhode Island. And then went on for my doctoral studies in Freeburg, Switzerland.

Ku: And I've been teaching at the Dominican House of Studies since 2008. Wow. So that's probably before most of your listeners were. We're born. No. Yeah. Who knows? So, uh, yeah, so that's what, 17 years? So that's a brief sketch of my past. I have five sisters. One of my sisters the youngest died of cancer just last year.

Ku: So that's, uh, that would mark my thank you, mark my. Experience of spiritual growth and of of life, [00:03:00] that's inevitable. So my reason for coming on the Camino is to advance spiritually. So I could say in, in in practical concrete terms, the Lord used your harassment. Like every year you'd ask me, are you, are you gonna go on the camino?

Ku: Let's go on the Camino. So that was, you could say, put it in my mind, but to make a spiritual advance because we priests and religious are required to make a five day retreat once a year. That's in Canon Law. And so this is an intense retreat, so more than five days and not just sitting in the air conditioning, reading scripture and going to eat your meals in the cafeteria somewhere, but out on the trail where you could be injured, face insects, deal with speaking a language poorly that you don't know. Uh, running into people who are intoxicated, various things. We can talk about that if you want later, but, so that's, that. So it's intense, it's [00:04:00] penitential and the Lord spared me from a midlife crisis.

Ku: So this Camino will stave off a late life crisis. You hope. You hope That's right. That's right. Maybe my crisis will arise on account of, of what I. What I, in a day or two, I suffer here, but that's it. Spiritual advance to really, we give consecrated time to the Lord, deal with the, the penitential conditions, which is.

Ku: The by the Lord's will, it helps you grow spiritually. It just challenges you, you say no to yourself. Why does fasting, how is that, why is that connected to spiritual growth? It is so the lord. I mean, you could give various reasons. You know, you're saying no to yourself. You're, you're pressing on the, one of the most basic human animal instincts.

Ku: Okay? But that should be, have a spiritual fruit is not necessarily intuitive. So, but this is it. So that's, that's why too. Challenge to grow spiritually and, and just give this time to the Lord. And, and I didn't feel like I absolutely [00:05:00] needed a breakthrough, but what? But I've been blessed in my religious life, but I could make a large step forward, possibly just give the Lord a chance to, to work with me that way.

Ku: That's why I came on the Camino. 

Robert: I like that. That's beautiful. Father Jerome. Okay, you're up. Tell us a little bit about yourself and then why you're here. You're probably asking yourself that. Yeah. Especially now. 

Jerome: Uh, no. Yes. Uh, I, uh, I grew up in Dallas, Texas. Uh, I, when I was five actually, I said I wanted to be either a priest or a motorcycle policeman because I watched Chips.

Jerome: And actually, that still really appeals to me now. No, no. So, uh, I went to Thomas Aquinas College. Uh. I, and in high school also a teacher really, uh, gave St. Thomas Aquinas to us in various ways, and I [00:06:00] loved the Dominicans, wanted to definitely give my life to prayer and study, which flows over into preaching for the salvation of souls.

Jerome: That's the Dominican charism. So as St. Thomas describes it, so, uh, I eventually entered the Dominicans and I was ordained a Dominican priest in 2012. I've been helping out in many different parishes over the years. Now I'm in DC at St. Dominic's. I do things at St. Dominic's, and I also help in the library currently at the House of Studies, also in DC.

Jerome: So it's just a little bit about, uh, who I am and my job. No, uh, sorry. No, but one day at breakfast, Father John Baptist said he had this friend who loves [00:07:00] the Camino and maybe we could go on to Camino. He is like, would you like to go? And I was like, what is that? I actually hadn't even heard of the Camino. 

Host: Oh, that's interesting. 

Jerome: Yeah. Uh, well, you did know that. No?

Host: Well, we know it now and it's on, it's on record, so, yeah. 

Jerome: Yeah. So I didn't know about the Camino. I researched it. I'm like, holy cow. This is like hundreds of miles of walking. You don't know where you're staying each night. And how is this even possible? And in Spain and you know, in August, like, how hot is it? This is insane, but all these people do it. So I guess, I guess it's possible. And, you know, I started training and then I fell off some, but, uh, uh, but I think I might live, we haven't started yet. We start, uh, tomorrow actually.

Jerome: But, uh, yeah, no, I. It's, I was intrigued. It [00:08:00] sounded very, it sounded very ent, adventurous. Certainly would be good for my health and uh, it sounded like a lot of fun, but also, you know, scary in a way. But that's also thrilling. But also I, you know, obviously thousands upon thousands of Christians have greatly, greatly benefited from this.

Jerome: There's a reason why it's so popular and you know, there's so many testimonies of miracles that have happened and now people bring intentions on the Camino and. Those, you know, many times those prayers are fully answered in miraculous ways, and I definitely wanted to be part of that, 

Host: Excellent. That's awesome. Alright, so the past few days we've been traveling. I left and from Rhode Island and I flew to Washington DC and stayed at St. Dominic's. It was a, a really wonderful stay. The hospitality was beautiful and I appreciate that. And, um, then [00:09:00] we flew, I stayed one night, and then the following day we flew to Spain.

Host: It was a, actually a wonderful flight. Um, it, it was really only five hours. I couldn't believe it. So there must have been a a, you know, we were, it was Divine Tailwind. Yeah, tailwind Divine one. And then from there, um, okay, so we went to, um. A very special place for Dominicans and also for myself. 'cause I, I have a love of Dominic, so it was a, a special grace.

Host: Can we talk about that a little bit? You guys can take turns talking about visiting the birthplace of St. Dominic. 

Ku: Yes. So St. Dominic was born in Caleruega, Spain, and we had the privilege of going there. We decided to go there before. Starting our Camino and in fact, Robert, you were going to go to Frassati's canonization on August 3rd--the first scheduled date.

Ku: That was your original plan. But I, my aversion to large crowds made me think, I said, no, I, I think I won't do that. So I'll meet you in Burgos after I go to Caleruega and you go to Rome. But you [00:10:00] decided that you would join us in Caleruega. And then what do you know? Pope Francis dies. Pope Leo gets elected. The date you would've been in Rome was no longer the date of the canonization.

Ku: So. The Lord protected you in a way there. This is actually that event and our experience in Caleruega also has this character of the Camino where we planned some things, but there were so many benefits that came about that were unplanned, such as you're joining us in Caleruega, you ended up not being in Rome without a canonization.

Ku: Okay. Unplanned. Wow, wonderful. And we ended up with a, a tour guide, a, a Dominican deacon who's assigned to Caleruega. That was unplanned. We didn't know who we would meet, so we're in the House of spirituality--we didn't stay with the Dominicans in the priory. We were just in this retreat house essentially.

Ku: But naturally the [00:11:00] concierge introduced us once because the deacon was there. He was actually putting spackle on the wall. This is a very good deacon, making himself practical. And so I met him and then the following day he just said of his own initiative. I didn't ask him for anything--he's like, I'll give you a tour. The three of us met for a tour and we're thinking, oh yeah, we'll see the church in, you know, 15 minutes or something. He said, well, so let's say we have to finish by seven because you know, it's five o'clock now and that we should be able to finish in two hours. Like, wow, this is gonna be a tour.

Ku: And it was fantastic. So I saw the tower. The well where St. Dominic, his house was, and that's now in where the, the Dominican nuns are very strict. You can't even, as we, we ended up learning this from two ladies who were at table with us, uh, two Spanish ladies who came to the, the, this retreat house for just their, to make their, for their own spiritual retreat.

Ku: But so things just happened again. By coincidence, by Divine Providence, which includes and,  dominates coincidence. So we are, we go to the well where St. Dominic's house was, and then they can suggest, you know, you could say Mass there tomorrow. We're like, well, okay. If you insist, fantastic. And that also allowed us to, to say mass at a more reasonable hour

Ku: So that just is moving to see and learn some of the history--to be at that place, and then just to have things fall into place the way the Lord allows them to happen. When you give Him the initiative, which we can't take away from Him, but when you're open to whatever is there, then you, you can receive everything that happens as a gift.

Ku: So that was, so, that was wonderful. And, uh, I dunno if you wanna talk about the taxi? When we came off the bus, we didn't know this. It was Sunday afternoon. Again, also unplanned though. You, we just, you pick a date to travel. When's the most convenient? I didn't think, oh, it's Sunday. We'll be there. Or either Sunday afternoon, [00:14:00] maybe it will be hard to get a taxi.

Ku: Just didn't think of it. So you get off the bus. It turns out the taxis normally are there, but Sunday afternoon, slow time. They, the taxi drivers are there, but then they see who gets off the bus. Whoever gets in the taxis get it first. But if you go to the bathroom as we did, 'cause there's no bathroom on the bus, it's two hour ride. Then when you come out, there are no taxis. So again, I'll, I'll let Father Jerome maybe fill in that story, but we, we, what happens now, you know, we get a number from the, the ticket seller, but that number gets you a recording and no person, Uber doesn't serve that area. So things fell into place.

Ku: You just dunno exactly what's gonna happen and that's a good. Attitude because in life you, you should plan for things intelligently, but you, you can't control everything. Right. And I think on, 

Host: Pilgrimage definitely concretizes that, and it's important. I think from my perspective, it's important to embrace those moments and don't reject them.

 Don't be frustrated with those moments. I mean, that, that could happen to us. You know, we're, we're human, but I'm saying if we accept, [00:15:00] um, what's presented to us and give it to God, it's always so much more wonderful when, uh, the solution, um, you know, appears, you know, with a taxi driver going by. And I think we can expect that along the way, I hope--because it makes it more magical in a sense, you know, in a figurative way. 

Jerome: Yeah, no, uh, just  reflecting on that a little bit. Yeah. That experience of, you know, there really were no taxis and we, we called a number. There's just a recording. I mean, I don't know how we were going to get a taxi, uh, like from, I mean, you know, if no number worked.

Jerome: We did Google. We tried Uber. Uber does not service here. Like there was no way to get a taxi. And it just so happened that this taxi pulled up. And, uh, we did flag him down. He, uh, yeah, we flagged him down, but like a taxi just happened to pull up, which the chances [00:16:00] of that were very, very low. 

Jerome: And he had this special relationship with this woman. I mean, she was going to, they were going to do this special thing, like that taxi was going to a, a special, uh. Client or whatever. I mean, no, but like, it was a special deal. It wasn't ordinary. And we talked to him and fortunately John Baptist was with us who knows some Spanish who, uh, yeah, decent Spanish.

Jerome: But fortunately, the taxi driver was able to get his friend who came and was able to give us a ride within 20 minutes. And then he  also provided us a ride back, which we also needed to go to take the bus to Burgos the next day. Uh, or a couple days later. So, I mean, it really did work out.

Jerome: Yeah. Um, and then, you know, we were there, we, we, we were there at the birthplace of St. Dominic. And, uh, you know, obviously we have, we would love to see the whole museum and the Yeah, the baptismal font where he was baptized and everything and, you know, it was Sunday and then the next day was a Monday. Well, most museums are not open on Mondays, so, uh, that, you know, we would've missed it all--But again, obviously by [00:18:00] Providence in my mind that, you know, there we, we came across a deacon who is very generous with his time and he spoke English very well for us who do not understand Spanish as well as John Baptist. And he gave us this incredible tour. A personal tour, uh, which, and then, and then based on that tour, he's like, oh, and if you want to celebrate Mass here tomorrow, you know, buy this well, like where St. Dominic grew up, basically you could do that. And we did that the next day. And I, I mean, all these things are just, I think they're little gifts from God and what it is about is just Providence. 

 We trust in God and we do this pilgrimage [00:19:00] to be closer to God and He responds with one of the things that I'm coming to learn about pilgrimage, and I, and I see this in you, Robert. You've done several of these pilgrimages, and you do have this kind of trust in Divine Providence, and you're like, we're not in control. Like you have this understanding that we're not in control and you're, you're content with that and like, ready for Providence, you know, which I want more of that in my life because, you know, life is a pilgrimage and we're not at home here and we depend on God's Providence, and if we try to have control of everything, uh, it doesn't work out well. That's the way to go. That's the way to holiness, 

Host: Right. That's cool. And I think that in the coming weeks that that will be concretized for us. And so it becomes really internalize and it's important to internalize that. That's, like you said, that's uh, that's what it's about, you know, like with small children who trust in their parents without fear or hesitation.

Host: Alright, so just, uh, a few more minutes. Can you just maybe tell me, I'm like, I don't care who goes first. Um, what a, a few of your expectations. For the next few weeks. Okay, so again, we're going from Virgos to Leone and then, which is my favorite [00:21:00] section. And then, um, and it may not be you, you may, you guys may say, this was not something that I, I enjoyed that, that's, you know, a possibility.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So one is the expectation. Of the opportunity to do pent, it's going to be hot. The prior at St. Dominic's was making fun of not mocking us, you know, in, in, in, in good fun. He looked at the weather report and he's like, oh good. It's gonna be a hundred degrees every day.

Speaker 2: And it, it's, it's gonna be close to a hundred degrees for the first three days anyway. Uh, it's now drier heat then in Washington DC so that should be easier to tolerate. But, so also fatigue also, we. Did train prepare a bit, but maybe not as much as we would have if, if we had more time. Just things don't, things prevent you from doing as much training as you want, so hopefully we will not have.

Speaker 2: Foot problems, but that can happen. I know you just injured your back or just irritated it a couple hours ago and you just, you [00:22:00] know, that could, that's, you have to carry the Lord heals you by tomorrow. Great. Just by natural being, but otherwise you'll walk with pain. Another so one. So penance. I mean that's, and, and then we mentioned this, so that's, that's, that's part of it, amazingly.

Speaker 2: And the way to be purified. Another expectation will be we'll meet other pilgrims. So we'll get to talk about Jesus. To them. We'll get to just share experiences, learn from them, maybe help them if we have water, get water from them if we're dying of thirst. So gimme your water. So those would be two expectations also to see some of the country, Spain.

Speaker 2: So you've described the Masita as being stark. Right. Well, yeah, if you said, you said with emphasis it will mark your soul. So I dunno if you remember saying that, but, so my, I, one expectation could be to have my soul marked so Yes. To, to have, to allow, I, I expect the Lord to do something. I'm giving him the time.

Speaker 2: And whatever, if, if it's miserable, it's supposed [00:23:00] to be miserable. I accept that. And if it's wonderful, uh, uh, that's, that'll be, I accept that. So I didn't mention the, the, we said the motto or that I, that came to me for our, for our Camino was from, from John as the, the woman at the well, when. The, the, he's, the disciples come back and they find him with the talking to this woman, strangely, the Samaritan woman.

Speaker 2: And then, uh, that's, and then also they say, here, you know, master eat. And he says, uh, the, uh, my food is to do the will of my father. And they, they're like, they, you know. Huh? They, they think he, oh, he, maybe he had some food. You know, it's like he says, no, no, it's the will doing the will of my father. So our motto can be to, to, to cry out to the Lord.

Speaker 2: Your will. Our food 

Speaker: or my job, 

Speaker 3: my job, my food. Yep. And, uh, no. I, uh, I do wanna make this penitent. It's hard because it has been delightful so far. It's been just completely [00:24:00] delightful. Uh, I'm trying to, uh, not eat as much as I like, try to make it penitential and, uh, uh, yeah, I. Uh, I'll see what tomorrow is. I have a very large backpack and, uh, uh, we'll see what it is like.

Speaker 3: Uh, and there is a little fear and trepidation because, yeah, I mean, I just, I know it's going to get hot and, uh, I've heard these stories about blisters and all of these things and, uh. I did mean to be, to do, you know, to run and stuff in preparation that I, I totally did not. So, uh, we'll see what happens, but, uh, so I'm expecting Pitance, which will be good.

Speaker 3: I'm also expecting very great. Memories, uh, just delightful times, which have, so far, that's all it's been, basically. Uh, and, uh, but yeah, I, I really want to enter into the [00:25:00] spirituality of pilgrimage because again, just in the Psalms I've been noticing in the past few days, like, you know, it says, when will I come to the end of my pilgrimage, oh, Lord, and enter into your presence.

Speaker 3: That was anon like two days ago. And then one of the psalms today was. During my pilgrimage, I have kept your commandments. That was like an anon today, uh, for daytime prayer. Um, and, you know, it's all about pilgrimage. And then in the office of readings we're doing, you know, the, it's the Israelites going from Egypt to the Promised Land, which was like the original pilgrimage, which is a symbol of our whole life.

Jerome: So again, trusting in God's providence, this is not your home. Like, don't even, don't even think of it as your home. Think of it as a pilgrimage. I really want to enter into that spirit more and more. So I'm hoping for that. 

Host: Right. And I think there's a real joy in recognizing ourselves as [00:26:00] pilgrims. I think it's because it's real. It's real. And then I think, um, I. One thing I haven't learned, I, I may, maybe I'm very cognizant of it is, um, but I haven't internalized it, is that, um, as pilgrims, it's very important to travel light. And, um, I mean that in so many different ways. And I have my attachments, I'm attached to books, books that I don't even read. Books, you know, how many books can you buy and actually read? You don't have the time. And um, my wife's like, what you getting more books? I'm like, I don't know. Maybe I should seek, seek some help. Um, but that's just one. And for me, that's a real attachment. And, um, but so as pilgrims, we, as we travel, and I hope that we lose a lot of our items.

Host: And I'm not saying that even facetiously and that's not a, um, lie. I hope that we actually lose. Um, some of our items because, um, that helps us to detach and we will find, oh, I didn't really need that. I thought I needed that. Or I can do without, maybe I, you know, kind of need it. So, I, I really pray, one prayer I have is that I [00:27:00] become more detached from the things that I find.

Host: Um. Weighty, you know, in my life. Uh, a few, a few more things before we, um, conclude with this episode. Um, father Jerome, thank you very much. He's carrying the podcasting equipment and it's probably four, five pounds and that helps me out a great deal. After a few days, I'll probably find it on the side of the road and, uh, be okay.

Host: I get, I get, or I'll have to pay Father Jerome, an extra few euro that he can use for whatever he pleases. Um, but I do want, um. I, I want, so you do have a big pack. Okay. So we don't know the weight of it, but what do you think? What does it feel like? 30. That's okay. That's a lot. I would say 30. Yeah. Father Ku. can you talk a little bit about how you're carting your materials around? 

Ku: So I am perhaps more innovative. An imaginative and willing to bear the scorn of those who are conformist. So I [00:28:00] borrowed my sister's wagon, which I have brought here, and I found a sufficient way to, it's a collapsible wagon, so I put it, I checked it as checked luggage along with the walking poles and just with inner tubes, bike inner tubes.

It tied it up so it, it made it perfectly here without any damage, without loss of the poles or anything. So I'm going to drag it rather than carry the pack. It gives me also so more space, you can put more things in it and we'll see how it works. The, the most creative engineering aspect of it was to keep it off your heels if you're going.

Downhill. And so that you have to put in obviously a, a, a, a rigid pole because, so the, the, I pull it just with la you lash to your belt using, again, inner tubes. So then it's flexible, so it doesn't, it, it doesn't jerk around it. It's easier on the, the it [00:29:00] handle of the, the wagon and it's smooth, easier on your body, but then it's gonna come down and keep hitting your heels, which will just be really annoying.

So you want something that is. A little longer than the tubes that you're pulling with so that you're not. Pulling with the, this, the, what I would call the braking system so it, it'll be a little longer. So it's always, it's slack while you're, while you're pulling it, but where when it's, you're going downhill, it will push against you in the back and always keep it off your, your heels.

And it successfully did that. I did try it for 10 miles in Washington, but does not prevent it from running down to the side. That's the main problem. And so, which just means, but if you're going downhill, you don't need the. The poles as much. Like if you're going uphill, that definitely helps to, to be using the poles, whether you're carrying just a pack or or dragging a wagon because that's extra weight.

But, so that shouldn't be too much trouble. You just manage it. If it comes running up beside you, you just leave it there or manage it with your hand. And it did that in [00:30:00] Vertigos when I was walking. I, I should have paid more attention, but it was a little bit crowded and I the wagon. Hit, hit a man. His leg bumped off, bumped into his leg.

I apologized for it. And he was, it was, it wasn't that hard, but it was, it was harder than I, you know, it wasn't just like a a, a brush. You wouldn't notice, so. Right. He's 

Host: ...he's an amputee now, right? 

Speaker 2: Well, well, I, I didn't, I, I didn't, I saw him on the ground and I didn't, I didn't want to get involved, so I amputation.

Speaker 2: Yeah, we're, we're good like that. We don't wanna get involved. It, it, it could have, it probably followed from, you know, an infection or something. But anyway, so that's just, I just think that's likely. But 

Speaker: no, I was impressed. Um, going, going from the, uh, bus station to the, to, uh, where we're at now to it steers.

Speaker: Yep. Yeah, it look good. 

Ku: It steers very well, and it stays off your heel, so that's ideal. But I, it doesn't, it, it can, when you're going downhill, it can run up on the side. So we'll see how long it goes. I, I have my sister's permission to ditch it, and as I said, if, if I do. So if, if it's, if it breaks, you just dump it in the trash.

But if it, if [00:31:00] for some reason it, it's just not working, then I'll give it either to the poorest person I can find or or the best looking lady. I, I figure that the Lord is just, wants, wants to, to bless her with that, a wagon. So I'll offer it to, to, to people of that description first and then. Anyone else.

So that, that is my innovation. And you had said, Robert, that you had once met one person who had a wagon and even gave it a name. My, this, this is not named. I'm not, I'm not, it definitely 

Host: It wasn't a wagon. It was more of like a Oh, okay. Some type of cart like that. Okay. That you would shop with. Okay. Ah, okay.

Ku: My initial idea was a stroller. And I, because you're pushing it and I know, uh, someone who like, who walked across the entire United States in order to carry enough water. Oh, he, you, that water is heavy. It is heavy. Is he, he put it, he could put it in a stroller and, but then it, it's rather than have to push something and then I didn't, hadn't thought of the poles. Then we said, oh, you have walking poles then. Well, that's not gonna work. So I, I wanted something that I could pull and not with my hands, but as you could last to your belt. 

Host: No, I'm very [00:32:00] impressed. I, I was thinking, uh, this guy really. Is, uh, a lot like MacGyver. You know what I mean? No, I saw that. It was like amazing.

Ku: I use rubber bands. Did MacGyver use rubber bands? So 

Host: He used a lot of things. I'm sure he used rubber bands. All right, a final word, Father Jerome. 

Jerome: I think I'm going to  end up carrying my 30 pound pack and Father Ku's wagon.

We'll see what happens. We'll see what happens at the end of the road. 

Speaker: All right, well thank you very much and of course, Buen [00:33:00] Camino.