These Holy Bones: Vol. 2 Episode 7 - John Paul from Argentina

I took a chance asking Juan Pablo to be a guest on the podcast. He was sitting in a park in the town of Portomarin writing in his journal, and I didn't want to bother him. I'm glad I did. He is originally from Argentina, but moved to Spain to study for an advanced degree. While in Spain, people encourage him to walk the Camino--if your Spanish, it's almost a mandate to travel to Santiago on foot. I enjoyed my conversation with Juan Pablo--John Paul--and think you will, too. Brew a pot of coffee, get comfortable in your favorite chair, and have a listen. Buen Camino. 

Transcript

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These Holy Bones: Vol. 2 Ep. 7 John from Argentina 

Speaker: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of These Holy Bones. A podcast about the ancient pilgrimage to the Cathedral of Santiago, where the bones of St. James are interred beneath the high altar. I'm your host, Robert Nerney. This episode is being sponsored by Ocean Magic Surf and Skateboard Superstore in Jupiter, Florida.

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Host: Today I am in Portomarin, which is about 14 miles from Sarria. And Saria is the town that many people start from because it is approximately 100 kilometers from Santiago and in Santiago they ask you for your credential and you have to have walked at least a hundred kilometers in order to get your Compostela. So I'm here with John from Argentina. 

John Paul: Yes. 

Host: Nice to meet you. Thank you. I appreciate it, John. So, John, tell me a little bit about yourself and then tell me why the Camino this year. 

John Paul: Okay. Um, well, I am, [00:02:00] my name is John. I'm from Argentina. I'm 27 years old. I studied law in Argentina. I used to work in an Argentina court, um, and then I moved to Spain. Um. To do a degree, and then I stayed here. I've been in Spain since 2023. 

Host: Okay. So, Spain obviously has a Camino culture, right? Yeah. So people must talk about it. So did you know about the Camino before you came to Spain? 

John Paul: No, I didn't know the Camino before I came to Spain, but I moved to Laconia. Uh, that it's in Galicia. So everyone tells you about the Camino. You should do it. It will open your mind. You will have a great experience. You can order your ideas and your thoughts. 

Host: So you heard all positive things? 

John Paul: Yeah. Yeah. All positive [00:03:00] things. Okay. That's cool. From lot of people, different people, different ages, different uh. Uh, countries. So, but all of them told me you have to do it.

Host: Right. So what, what I've read is that 49% of the pilgrims that you meet, not that you meet, 49% of the  people on the road are from Spain. I don't know if that's true, but It may, it may be true. 

John Paul: Yeah, it may be true. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I met, uh, a lot of people from other countries also. Lot of people, um, and well, they are open-minded. People have a spirit of collaboration and the dialogue between the pilgrims--I  think that that's amazing because it shows you the kind nature of the human beings. 

Host: Yes. It's almost, it's almost contrary to national politics. Yeah. 

John Paul: Yeah. It's like you say, like it's opposite. It's opposite. It's like, yeah, it's opposite. But when you are here walking by yourself, you meet a lot of people. All the people are kind to you, people that are open to, to listen, to share their stories. I think that  it's very meaningful for me. 

Host:  Did you hesitate to go by yourself or was it something you just embraced?

John Paul:  I hesitated a bit, but when I started walking, uh, when I started the Camino, I, I thought, uh, it was better to do it by myself. 

Host: I've walked four times with my wife. And that's was wonderful, you know, and I've done it, like this year, I'm, I'm walking with two Catholic priests. I've walked with my brother-in-law. I'd have to say, and even my wife would probably understand this, um, I think I like to walk by myself the most. I out of every, you know, nothing against Catholic priests or my brother-in-law, it's just that I, I find I [00:05:00] can walk my pace and I don't feel at all pressured and I can stop when I need to or when I want to. The only problem with is that I never get anywhere. Okay, because I stop at every cafe. I talk to too many people, so I'm probably better off with someone to get me where I have to go. 

John Paul:  Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I also like to be like free if I want to stay, to have a, a coffee to do it at my own, uh, rhythm or speed. Um. That's why I decided  to do it alone, and so far I'm enjoying it. I'm really enjoying it. And it's also useful for me. It's, yes, it's been very useful. 

Host: In what way? 

John Paul: It's not easy to live outside your country. 

Host: Oh, yes. 

John Paul: You question yourself every day. Is it the right choice? Am I doing the things? I think it's been useful for me in order to get my mind clear and to gain confidence.

Host: I think for a lot of us, that's the human condition to clarify, you know, because most of us live, I mean, we're, we're inundated with so many things. It's hard to clarify. Yeah. And you need time away. You need time by yourself to clarify. 

John Paul: Yes.I was writing ideas in my journal to help clarify my thoughts. 

Host:  I know. I interrupted you. I'm sorry.  

John Paul: If you want, I can read some of them?

Host: Yes--of course. So, I interrupted John while he was writing here in the park. 

John Paul: One meaningful thought I had today was to be happy and to share happiness with others. It's meant to be shared. 

Host: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think you can be happy unless you're sharing it. I don't think it's possible.

John Paul:  I agree. We are social creatures. Creatures, yeah. Or animals. We are meant to live in community, to help each other and to be kind to one another--to be kind is essential for me. 

John Paul: And I hear people, we don't have time. We are always in a rush. 

Host: Right. No, because a lot of times we have goals. It's like, I need to do this, and I need to do that. And so that comes before relating to others. 

John Paul:  Yeah. But I think both are compatible. Like, you can go for your goals, you can set your goals and go for them, but you can also make time for the people in your life.  

Host: John, let me ask you this. What are the most important items in your pack? So give me three, and I don't want to hear about shoes.

John Paul: This notebook. I have a cross. I'm Argentinian, and when I went to  Vatican City, I bought a, a cross that Pope Francis used. Pope Francis was from Buenos Aires, and he used to go to the Cathedral of Buenos Aires so we could meet him there. And I bought his cross and, and I have it there.  

Johm Paul: And one more item?  A book of thoughts from Marcus Aurelius. I think it's useful for this moment. 

Host:  Excellent. Let me ask you this now--the Camino for me is a religious pilgrimage. I remember my second Camino. I was by myself and people of course asked why the Camino? And I'd say, oh, religious. They were like, oh, that's unusual. And I thought that was an unusual response. Okay. I thought like, oh no, that should be the usual because it's a Catholic pilgrimage dating back to the 9th century. What about yourself? What would you is your main reason for walking?

John Paul: I think it's many reasons. I mean it's cultural and historical. For example. did you know that the city we are in right now was not here. It was in another place down the river they took every stone and built it again. 

Host: I do know that. Oh, okay.

John Paul: It's exactly the same as it was before. And this city is very beautiful. It's really beautiful.

Host: I like Portomarin. I've stayed here several times.

John Paul:  I will tell you something that I was thinking about also. I'm not baptized, but I went to a Catholic university for my own decision because I have something inside me that wants to be near this path of God, of the Church--that's in part, why I'm doing the Camino. I think I have something inside me that's calling me. Oh, it's good in some way. I believe in God, I pray... 

Host: The Camino is a great place to pray--there is so much time to pray while you're walking. 

John Paul: Yes.I prayed during the walk and I prayed before writing these notes here.

Host: So you feel attracted to the Catholic Church?  

John Paul: Of course. I think Pope Francis has had a lot to do with it. He opened this door for me in some way. 

Host: That's beautiful. 

John Paul: I think I have something inside me that's calling me to get closer to the Church. And that's in part why I did the Camino, also. That's why when you told me that you were here with your friends that are priests--I would really like to talk to them. 

Host: They would love to talk to you. They're very open. They're good men. 

John Paul: I would really like to talk to them.  

Host: They'll be very open to speaking with you. 

John Paul: I haven't spoken to a priest for a while, and I think I need to right at this moment. 

Host: That's awesome. I saw you from over there. I said, you know what? I don't know if he's from Kansas or if he's from, you know, um. South London, but I said I'm gonna go over and talk to him. That's the spirit, though. Like, you know, I'd probably talk to anyone, but you looked very peaceful sitting there writing, you look very peaceful.

John Paul: Before starting this Camino, I told myself that I will try every new experience. This is my first interview. I was nervous at first, but now I'm relaxed.

Host: That's cool. I'm enjoying this. Yeah, yeah. I get nervous too. Don't worry about it. But, um, yeah. So what about, um, what's your expectation about getting to Santiago? Do you expect something or are you just open to it? 

John Paul: Um, I try to keep my mind, my mind open the whole time, but I had, uh, yeah, I had some expectations that I try to set before starting the Camino. For example, I'm trying to know myself in a better way. For me, it's tough to be alone. Like I'm always looking to be with people and, and one day I say, no, I need to learn to be alone, to know myself, to start to love myself in a deeper way. It's a challenge, you know, loving yourself.

Host: It is a challenge that we all must face.  I'm 62 and have to learn how every day, you know, it's not like you get to a point, oh, that's it. No. It's like every day, every moment. Some people struggle more than others. I think I've struggled in the past to really love myself and to accept, you know, myself--what's good about me and what's bad about me. It's a journey. 

John Paul: Yeah. It's tough. It's tough to learn, to love yourself, to take care of yourself, to forgive yourself, uh, forgiveness. It's a tough one, 

Host: Pope Francis was all about forgiveness. You have a beautiful role model. I mean, that was his papacy--mercy. 

John Paul: But we are tougher with ourselves than we are with others. For example, I want to share this: right now I feel guilty because I'm far from my family. I feel guilty about it. 

Host: Right. That's, I think that's probably normal, but like in your, in your prayer life, you know, you can pray for them and that's the most you can do. So if you're out here praying for your family, that's a great gift that you can give them. 

Joh Paul: Yes. 

Host:  You know, 'cause I'm here, you know, I'm away from my wife--I have four kids, five grandkids. And I also feel guilty at times. Like, what am I doing? Have I lost my mind? I should be home. You know, I should be working. I should be doing X, Y, and Z. But I think the Lord calls people to walk the Camino. This is what I think, and I think that the time you give to the Lord is very precious, and I think he will, of course, he will not be outdone. He'll be very generous to you and to your family--but I understand. You sound Irish instead of Argentinian with your guilt.

John Paul: I feel guilty, but I'm very thankful it's working out. God is very merciful with me. He has provided me with everything, my whole life to me, to my family in health and possibilities. I am happy and my entire life has been happy, so I'm very grateful. And there's another key point of the Camino, and to say thank you to God for my life--to the things I have, the people in my life--my family. It's very important and I want to try to wake up every morning and say, "Thank you for all of this." 

Host: Well, John, you seem that way. We've known each other for 10 minutes. You know, you seem very gentle. You seem very kind, and you seem like you would embrace  gratitude. You seem that way.

John Paul: Yeah. I try to, I try to, I try to be grateful and, and kind. I try to. 

Host: Right. No, I can tell you are, it's, it's, you know, it's in your countenance. It's on your face. It's like me meeting, um, mother Theresa, you would say, oh, this little little nun is so kind. Of course she's kind, she's Mother Theresa. But even our new pope seems so kind. It's in his face, you know, which is a blessing. 

John Paul: The new Pope Leo, he looks kind, and I think he gets it. He allows himself to feel emotional. Right. To cry. Right, right. It's important to cry also, 

 Host: I know that as an Irishman, sometimes I hold it back. But on the Camino, oftentimes you just cry because of a thought you have or because you probably have blisters and you're tired. But it's not unusual for someone just to cry on the Camino.

John Paul: Uh, I used to cry. When I'm alone. Yeah.But I'm allowing myself to cry more if I'm sad. I think it's important also to let, or to permit yourself to feel, to be sad. It's okay to be sad sometimes. It's okay to share that with people. 

Host: Right, right. Well, Jesus wept, right? Yeah. When Lazarus died. So yeah. I still have a problem crying although I like to cry. It's a great release. But I still have a problem with it. Like, I never saw my dad cry his whole life, you know? 

John Paul: Well, uh, neither have I. So, and for example, my elder brother or my parents, they always say, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry. Or one is told that a man doesn't cry. So if you grow up  with that idea in your mind, and then you keep that inside, it hurts you. Then you pass to your children.

Host: Um, thanks for sharing that. I need to hear that. 

John Paul: It's important. 

Host:  It is because it's a part of being human to cry to, to feel deeply, you know? 

John Paul:  Yeah. It's essential. 

Host: It is essential. All right, John, I hope you have a great Camino. I will pray for you and then we'll meet the priests. John from Argentina, I hope you make it to the ocean, and  I hope you have many more Caminos. Buen Camino.

John Paul: Okay. [00:24:00] Thank you. Buen Camino.