These Holy Bones: Vol. 2-Episode 14: Planning for a Future Camino with Steve Lighty

In this episode, my good friend, Steven Lighty, and I discuss the many different facets of the Camino and what it takes to prepare for the long trek across Spain. Steve and his wife, Maryann, plan on walking the pilgrimage in a few years. Their preparation is essentially underway as they consider what route to travel and what to pack for their journey. It seems the Camino has their number, and it is very difficult not to answer once you've heard the call. 

Transcript

Robert 0:10

Hello, and welcome to another episode of These Holy Bones, a podcast about the ancient pilgrimage to the Cathedral of Santiago, where the bones of St. James are interred beneath the high altar. I'm your host, Robert Nurney, and I want to welcome my good friend Stephen Lighty. We've known each other for many years as Providence teachers, and um I just want to say welcome, Steve. Hey, thanks for having me. Oh, no problem. My pleasure. So Steve and his wife Mary Ann are interested in walking the Camino in the near future. So today's episode will be a conversation about the Camino, a give and take, a qu uh question and answers. So, Steve, tell me, how did you hear about the Camino?

Robert 0:50

Steve: Uh, I think the first time I heard about it was from you, and um, I believe you lent me the um the uh movie with um Martin Sheen. Martin Sheen. So that was uh my first introduction to it. What did you think about the movie? I loved it. It's been a long time since I saw it, but uh, I should watch it again. Yeah, yeah, you should. I've only seen it like 72 times. Uh one of my favorites. Um actually, when I first saw that, I didn't like it. I thought it was slow. A friend had recommended it, and Karen and I sat, I I think I bought the DVD back then, and she fell asleep, and I'm going, I don't get this movie at all. So it's kind of ironic. Yep. Um, all right. So was it appealing when you I I know you have a sense of adventure. I know that you love to I know you love to uh to walk and bike.

Steve 1:37

Yeah. So um, yeah, I th I've I've never done like a long hiking trip, you know, more like day hikes and stuff, but uh I think it would be uh definitely a a challenge and uh you know, and especially doing it in a foreign country as well. I think it would be really interesting. And and then you tie in the um, you know, kind of like the religious aspect of it. I think it would be definitely right.

Robert 2:03

That's a good question. So on my um my Caminos, uh the big question is why are you here? That's that's a common question. Yeah, and so uh, you know, at night when you're drinking uh you're sharing wine, wine and food with other pilgrims, yeah, you get into that conversation. And so it's it's there's a number of reasons why people go. You know, it's cultural, it's uh historical, it's um uh religious or spiritual. So what would be the driving reason for you and your wife to to make the Camino?

Steve 2:32

Um I think the first one would probably be more of like the adventure part and you know, hiking in a in a I've never been to Spain, um, so I think that would be really interesting. I I'm not a um a devout Christian by any means, but I think being on a like a a religious or a spiritual pilgrimage would be um interesting and seeing other people doing it, I I would find that pretty um, I don't know if entertaining is the right word, but uh uh very interesting.

Robert 3:07

Right, right. Yeah. It definitely is uh there's a uh a sense of adventure. Um when when I first went with my wife in 2015, um booking.com wasn't as you know, I don't know if it was it wasn't relevant at the point or wasn't, you know, but uh the computer definitely has had an impact on the Camino because you can you know you can go, you can make sure that you have a uh a place to stay, yeah, and and stuff like that, which takes away from the experience, I think. Right. It gives you that sense of security, where I think that uh for me it's more about trusting in God. Yeah, but it's such a and then you're like, well, maybe I should do it, maybe I shouldn't do it. So that's one I'm thinking about. Like, so this year I'm supposed to go with my granddaughter, yeah. You know, for and so I'm figuring out what's the best route or the best stages to to take her on. And uh so I have to be conscious, you know, she's 10 years old. I mean, she's mature for her age, but uh, you know, so um, and do I want to book the whole way? Right. Or do I do I want to teach her like you know, there is a God and we can trust in his providence and yeah, yeah.

Steve 4:14

Um not that you would do it with your with your granddaughter, but would it is it possible or do people do it without any um technology and just and wing it?

Robert 4:27

Yes, very few though. Yeah, it's not like it's not as uh common as as you might think, but yeah, I would I would say if you can do it that way, definitely do it that way. Yeah, you know what I mean? Um because well, let's take the Francais, for instance. It's it's way marked the whole way, yeah. So you have yellow arrows and you have the shells, you know, that um symbolize the uh those are the the symbols of the the Camino. And uh so it's hard to get lost in you going west on the on the Francais. Yeah. There are other paths that are not as well marked, you know. The Norte, my wife and I were on the Norte for one day. So um, yeah, I mean you can definitely do it. You can do it, you know. Uh there are people that do it with like a day pack, right? You know what I mean? And they just have a few things to change into.

Steve 5:17

So what would happen if you walked into a town late in the evening and there was nowhere to stay? Right.

Robert 5:24

So I have heard stories about that, and I've I've encountered that a few times, but um some of the stories were, you know, one guy from Germany, he said I was, you know, in this town, this particular Albergue was was filled, and he said, Listen to the guy, I'll I'll sleep on the floor. I need a place to stay. And so he slept on the floor. So they let him, yeah. Yeah, so um because camping is illegal. It is like wild camping is illegal, but I've seen it done, yeah, you know, because uh uh just the fact that the country's so big and right, you know. But um there are places, there are towns that do have campsites, a few. So I mean that's a a possibility. But I would not and people aren't really carrying like tents and camping gear. No. So if you show up at a at a campsite, do they have equipment for you or that's a good question. I never used uh I don't know, I'm not sure. I do know I've met people with um with tents, and so uh but so I mean there's definitely places to pitch a tent. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Uh they don't want fires, obviously. Last year there were wildfires. Yeah. But last year I was walking with the two Dominican priests and we got into a town and we hadn't booked anything. I think I told you um I I recommended that we pray on the way for a place to stay. Yeah. My wife and I would do that often. Uh so we were doing that, and we'd end up and it seemed providential, like we'd meet people that and the priests would have discussions about faith with them and stuff. I like, oh, this is cool, you know?

Steve 6:54

Yeah.

Robert 6:55

And I got my interviews. And then one day we kind of we came into a town and it was it was probably pretty warm that day. Uh the temperatures were like between 85 and 100.

Steve 7:05

Yeah.

Robert 7:06

So we were kind of burnt out. We go to a an albergue, closed, complete, you know, filled. And then we go to another one, and that was filled, and they were like, What the heck? So someone dialed ahead and found an albergue like a mile and a half um further west, yeah, that was empty. And so we we walked there and you know it was no problem. But the next day they're like, That's it, we're booking from here on in. Yeah, so I don't know, with uh with my granddaughter, I'll see.

Steve 7:36

Yeah, I mean it's probably probably better to take some precautions with a kid, right?

Robert 7:44

Yeah, but if I had to recommend, I would say no, just go and and give it to the Lord. Yeah, yeah. Because um sometimes you end up in a really cool place, right? You know, and we've met people, well, one woman in particular from Australia, and she said that um at times because she had her dog with her, that she was not allowed to stay at the Albergues with a dog, and so she stayed with uh townspeople.

Steve 8:09

That's cool.

Robert 8:12

She may have had a tent too. Yeah, so that's cool. Yep. So any particular questions that you'd like to answer if say if you're going tomorrow. What kind of shoes should I wear? That's probably one of the best questions. Okay. So for the first nine, I used oboe's, uh-huh, which is I think it's American-made, but it's a pretty heavy um shoe. I didn't have a boot, okay? So uh strong bottom, yeah. And um I had blisters. I get blisters anyway because of the way I strike, my kid strikes. But last year, I went to uh Roadrunner in Providence, yeah, and the guy recommended this light Mizuno sneaker. It might have been a cross trainer or something, but it was light. Yeah. And so I used that. I still got blisters, but it was like it was ideal. Yeah, it didn't rain, so it didn't get wet. Um, but I don't think that's it, that's key anyway. I don't I don't think you know uh um a rain a Gore-Tex rainproof shoe even matters.

Steve 9:09

But it it doesn't rain much anyway, right? It can, but it can. But it's a dry, it's a dry country. It's pretty dry.

Robert 9:18

Yeah, yeah. I've had I've walked in rain before though, like far. Yeah. So it can. Yeah. Um if you're in the mountains initially, it might rain or even s sleet. Yeah, you know. But so this year I'm gonna go back to the uh I left those in Spain. I leave a lot of things in Spain. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then uh they um I'm gonna go back to that. I'm not gonna wear a hiking shoe. Yeah. You know. If you're doing the 500 miles, if you're going from like uh San Jean to Santiago, maybe something uh a little firmer than the Mizuno. Yeah. But it's up, you know. The the the key is that you buy it early and you train with it. Right. You know, give it some time.

Steve 9:59

So you make it through with one pair of shoes? It's not like the Appalachian Trail where you have to go through like four or whatever.

Robert 10:04

No, yeah, that's that's totally different. Yeah. And the Camino is very civilized. The Appalachian Trail is rougher, yeah. Yeah, I could never do it now with my hips. Yeah. You know, no, the Camino for the most part, if you go in the Francaise, the first day you go up into the Pyrenees and um And that starts in France? That starts in southern France. Yeah, you know, that's the most the most popular route is is the Francais. But a lot of people start in different places on the like this shell start in Lyon. Yeah, you know, but you go up into the mountains and then down into so you're still in France, then down into Spain. And then so the first couple of days, the next day you have to come out of the mountains and you're going down this shale path, which is kind of tough. Yeah, and then after that, it's very civilized for and then at the end you have another mountain range, but by then you've walked over 400 miles. Yeah. So it doesn't so you're okay. Yeah, you're fine.

Steve 10:59

So um, is there like a border crossing? Do you have to like show your passport?

Robert 11:02

No, no, there's you you do cross into Spain, but yeah, there's not a gate with a guard or anything. No, yeah. I don't even know where it is, somewhere in the mountains, you know what I mean? Yeah, you're coming down into Espana, yeah, you know, and uh that first day is cool, yeah, because the the Pyrenees are beautiful, yeah, and they're like wild horses up there and stuff. Uh-huh. And um some people do the the full stage, which is like 17 miles, but it's more like 24 miles because of the elevation. Yeah, and then even coming down is difficult. It can be harder a lot of times. But um, so I've gone over, I've done that in one day. Most people do it one day, but I would recommend I although I recommend that you stay up in the mountain. There are two places you can stay because it's just uh uh you only have to walk like six miles, yeah, and then you can hang out, yeah. Um, maybe seven miles, and then um and it's a it's probably one of the best places to stay because you're up in the mountains, um, you meet people, and those people usually become friends for the rest of the journey. Which is awesome, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? And um so there's Horusan, which is just Orison's on the map, but it's really just this Albergue, private Albergue on the right, and then they have like picnic tables on the left, and you can just you can stay there. And um there's a newer one that I stayed at two years ago. I forget what it's called, but it's up on the left, another one kilometer up on the left. And this uh gentleman bought the property and redid it, and uh he is the your host and the chef, and he's kind of a comic. Yeah, so that you know, at night when you're eating with the uh other pilgrims, he has you introduce yourself and stuff, and then he he has comments and stuff. Uh-huh. It's pretty cool. Yeah, that's what it's all about, dude. The the the communal meal is the is the best. Yeah, but not those are not always easy to come by. Right. You know what I mean? But that is what you want right out of everything you want to you want to eat with the pilgrims, hanging with the pilgrims, yeah. It's the best.

Steve 13:04

Um, so what's your uh what's like the daily mileage or kilometerage? Right.

Robert 13:11

Okay, well, no, that's a good question. So I have I brought these two guide books. These are probably the most popular. Yeah, that's like the definitive. The the gentleman just died recently, but I think his daughter's taking that over. And so the stages they um they depict the stages in both both that book and this book. This is an easier one to read. Um and so I would say between 14 miles and 19 miles would be, you know, according to these stages. Kind of the average, yeah. Yeah, so probably like 14 to 15 would be the average, which is a lot.

Steve 13:46

Yeah.

Robert 13:47

I mean, it's one thing you do one day, but as I get older, it's a lot.

Steve 13:50

Yeah.

Robert 13:51

Um but day in and day out, you it's uh it's a pounding on your feet, that's the thing. Yeah, that's why you want to carry the lightest pack possible, right?

Steve 14:01

Um it's interesting the title, a practical and mystical manual for the modern day pilgrim. So as far as the mystical part, what is the guidebook?

Robert 14:14

Is it he has um in this one, he has um he has uh paragraphs that kind of like remind you why you're there and stuff. I mean if you really read this as you go, yeah. I've never done that, but uh usually you know he's got um all of the uh albergues per stop with their phone numbers, so this is updated every couple of years. Yeah, you know, but most people now are using uh using their iPhone. Right. You know, their apps that you know I'd rather have a book personally, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? So I usually take I'll take this one this year. Yeah, you know, it's easier to to read. Yeah. Um, yeah, I would say, but some people like you know, some people do more mileage. I met I mean you meet people that are doing crazy miles, you know. Like one guy, oh, I do 40 kilometers a day. I'm like, I met this one dude from uh I don't know if it was Sweden or Switzerland. He was walking in the morning, running in the afternoon, so he wasn't carrying his pack, he was sending that ahead. You can do that for five euro. And he uh just had like a camel pack on, you know, and he was doing um he was doing 40 miles a day. Wow, that's nice. Like, what? Yeah, but he's also an ultra marathoner as far as you know, but I was like, that's that and that I think you have to decide what is this, what what is this for me?

Steve 15:32

Right. If you're doing it for a test of endurance, great, do 40 miles a day. Right. But if you want to like meet pilgrims and and you know commune with the place, it seems like going a little slower might be better.

Robert 15:47

Well, last year I met um a gentleman from uh from the UK, excuse me, Kamal. So a Hindu, although he never told me he was a Hindu, but he's Indian. Yeah. And he did I tell you this story? I don't think so, no. All right, really cool guy. So he has this Indian food restaurant in Santiago called uh Camino Curry. And it was open when I was there, it had been open for like 54 days, you know. And he was working with his son, I think his son's name is Dev. And um so he said that he just he had seen something about the Camino and he uh told his wife, I think I need to do this. She's like, What? What are you talking about? This is Camino, I need to do it. And then uh so he he uh did it, I think, in 2024. Or was it 2025? Maybe 2025. And uh so he got in the flow, he was like following, you know, he started in Saint Jean-Pied de Port, so he was gonna do the 500 miles, you know, 800 kilometers, and uh he said he he was walking everyone else's pace. Then he's and someone said, you know, Kamal, the Camino will be here tomorrow. Yeah, you know, and he said, What? He goes, You walk your own Camino, yeah, and so he just totally like um slowed down. Yeah, and he said, instead I said, I just I I was the last one to leave the Albergie every day, so I'd wait until because you have until like eight o'clock in the morning. Yeah. When they threw me out, that's when I left. Because people are getting up at five, four.

Steve 17:23

Right.

Robert 17:24

I do not recommend walking in the dark. Right. I just it's even though people oh we're gonna get up at it's just a waste. Yeah. Unless you have like I know there's there's one reason uh that I would agree with. People want to go, um, they want to get up early and see the sunrise um over the um Cruz de Ferro, which is uh is a special place. Yeah, that's different. You want to see the sunrise. So that's like a one-day thing. It's a one-day thing, yeah. And usually you're walking from this town, Fancy Bedon, which is you know what I mean, it's it's only meters away. Right. So it's not like you, but I think it's dangerous, and I don't think it's it's worth it.

Steve 18:00

Right. And you're not seeing anything a few feet in front of you, but if you're lucky, right.

Robert 18:06

So he started walking slowly, and he said, Um, I had brought um a number of spices to cook with. And he said I would every night I would cook for pilgrims. And uh that's what I did. And he said uh then when he got back to um England, he uh said to his wife he had to go back. And when he went back, he's like, Oh, I need to open the restaurant. Yeah, so a really cool guy. Yeah, yeah. So I I contacted him recently. I said, Hopefully I'll see you this uh this summer.

Steve 18:34

Yeah, you know the restaurant's still open, right?

Robert 18:36

So they're gonna reopen it in March, so they closed it, I guess for the winter. Oh, they closed in the winter for the winter, yeah. And he went to India this this winter and he did like this massive uh tour of India, you know what I mean? On foot? No, trains and all this other yeah. So he's but he's from England, or he lives in England, yeah. He's from England, yeah. Wow, very interesting, dude. Yeah, and like that was that's the spirit of the Camino, like walk your own pace, right? If you're fast, you're fast. Yeah, if you're not, you're not. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Because I'm not, yeah. Yeah, but I would say the average would be about 14 miles a day, yeah. Which is plenty, right? But some days, some stages are actually 19 miles, like 18, 19, that's a long day. Yeah, you know, you're walking, you're on the road to like for well, I on the road to like five o'clock. That's with a with a lunch and hanging out, but right.

Steve 19:28

So is it typical kind of like to take a long siesta during the the heat of the day?

Robert 19:35

Well, a lot of pilgrims will try to beat the heat. Yeah. So they'll walk, you know, say they get up at 6, 6.15, they're on the road at 6 30, they try to get into town by one. Okay. That's never me. Yeah. But that's they try to beat the heat. So my wife and I have Oh, and then they're done for the day? They're done.

Steve 19:52

So do do you ever do like, you know, 7 a.m. to 11 and take a few hours off and then do more in the afternoon? I do that. Oh, yeah. Because that seems reasonable to me.

Robert 20:03

Right. And you just cover, you know, you wear a hat, make sure you get covered up and you're gonna sweat.

Steve 20:08

Yeah.

Robert 20:08

You know, especially in July and August.

Steve 20:10

Right.

Robert 20:11

But I find, yeah, Karen and I like sometimes we're the last people that walk into town. Yeah. And people like you guys.

Steve 20:17

And then these are sort of boring technical questions, but like, where do you get your water and stuff? Do you buy it or do you is there like right?

Robert 20:24

So we oftentimes buy it, yeah. Right, but every almost every town has a fountain and you can just fill up. Yeah. Yeah. You could almost but sometimes you get in and the town, you're like, this isn't really a town. Yeah. It's deserted and like all the houses are empty, and uh, so some town towns that the fountain doesn't work. Yeah. And it'll tell you if it's drinkable or not. Right, right, right. Right. But most of the most of the fountains in the towns are are drinkable.

Steve 20:50

Yeah.

Robert 20:51

What do they say, potable? Potable?

Steve 20:53

I always say potable, but I some people say potable. I don't know.

Robert 20:58

Uh yeah. No, that's an important thing. That's because you know, hydration is probably the most important thing. Right. And if you hydrate early, you're better off. Because I've been dehydrated, yeah. Where I'm just out of my mind.

Steve 21:08

Yeah, and you just get so tired hiking. Yeah. And you don't realize why.

Robert 21:13

No, it's true. Yeah. Right. So you can never drink one one town. I I um there was a masseuse, you know, and so I got my massage for 15 euro. And the guy goes, You need to drink way more water, dude. Yeah, you need to drink two liters a day. I'm like, two liters? Yeah. I don't come close to that. Yeah.

Steve 21:28

You know, a liter is like a quart-ish, right? I don't know. Yeah. It's like this.

Robert 21:36

Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, two of those. But you you probably need it.

Steve 21:39

Yeah, and you're sweating it out. Yeah.

Robert 21:41

Yeah.

Steve 21:42

So huh. Interesting. Um, so my other question, sort of, as you and I have like an English teacher background, what's um do you have any like uh inspiration as far as as like literature that's based on pillars? Pilgrimages like the Canterbury Tales, or I'm also like thinking of uh do you know Matsuo Basho's um The Narrow Road to the North? No, it was like a Japanese uh haiku. Oh really? And it's it's sort of like a haiku uh um uh sequence, but it it also has narrative in it, but it's all about and he's visiting different like holy places in Japan. Oh wow. So are you were you influenced by any of that kind of well?

Robert 22:31

My wife and I before um let me see what year I forget when we read this, but uh actually when in in Providence, there was uh in our anthology um at Providence College? No, in no in the Providence School system. Oh, okay. So one of the anthologies for like British Lit, um was it British Lit? They had a little section on pilgrimage, probably prior to uh Canterbury Tales.

Steve 22:53

Oh yeah, I vaguely remember that.

Robert 22:55

And they mentioned a book, The Art of Pilgrimage. So I bought that, and we've read that twice, and that's all about pilgrimage, all different religions, all different, you know. So that's a pretty cool book.

Steve 23:04

Yeah.

Robert 23:05

Um it's very it's a little dense. Yeah. And so we read that a couple times. But the Camino itself produces a ton of literature. Like I'm reading a book right now, I forget the guy's name. He's from Australia, and he was um he had written some project. He had written something and he made some money from this writing, and he was re retiring, and he was really out of shape and stuff, you know, and so he he uh decides to walk the Camino. But he goes from like, I don't know where he starts, Granada or something. It's a different, you know, it's sort of southern. Yeah, and so there he doesn't have a lot of you know um fellow pilgrims on these routes. Yeah, you know. So I'm getting through that. It's it's really well written. He's a good writer. Um, he gets into the history of uh of like um of the country as far as like uh the Islamic influence, yeah, and then um Franco, just a lot of uh stuff that I you know it's it's it's all right.

Steve 24:02

Gives you some background on the Spanish history, yeah.

Robert 24:05

Which is interesting.

Steve 24:07

Do you find that like most of the I'm sort of thinking of like um you know how Joseph Campbell has the uh the hero's quest, and sometimes the hero is um like the reluctant hero, like um isn't uh is it Bilbo or Frodo in Lord of the Rings? Like they don't want to go on the quest. Do you feel that are most people gung-ho in the beginning or or or even for yourself? Were you like, I'm not sure that I'm gonna be able to pull this off, but I'm gonna give it a shot anyway?

Robert 24:41

Or yeah, no, that you definitely meet um, I mean, that's part of uh my experience, and I think I've met people like that too, you know, because uh because you never know. Yeah, you know, so um, and then you meet people who are like, oh, they can conquer almost anything. Yeah. So I think it's more of a personality thing. For me, it's I always go with like I never know what the Lord wants. You know, like one year I ended up um I wanted to go, I wanted to start, I think, in uh I think I was gonna start in southern France. And then I got to Madrid and my flight to Pampolona was canceled. I was like, what? And they said, uh, we're gonna get you there by bus. I said, I'm not taking a bus there. So I just started in Madrid.

Steve 25:25

Yeah.

Robert 25:25

And so there is a Madrid Camino. Uh-huh. But no one, no one does it. No one. I met two guys, I think they were drunk. But uh so I I ended up coming home early on that. It was just was a very difficult, very lonely experience. And uh, yeah, so I so I give it to the Lord, like I don't know what's gonna happen. See what happened. Yeah, but I had one of the best, not the best, but I actually I was by myself and I had to cross, I had to get over this mountain to uh Segovia. So my walk to Segovia was probably it was really, it was a crazy day. I had to do 20 miles. I had just like um I think I had uh half of a ham sandwich, and uh I was up in the mountains and uh there were no way markings. Yeah, um this wild boar goes flying by me. I was like, what am I doing here? Yeah. I come out of the mountain, um, down from the mountain, and I see this guy in a truck, and I'm like, I said, I gotta see if I I can get a ride to Segovia. So I go up to the guy, I go, Segovia, can you give me a ride? He's like, No. He points on the horizon. You can see like this little whatever, like you know, the uh the city of Segovia. He's like, Segovia. I'm like, what? I said, please, no, Segovia.

Steve 26:42

It was really at least he pointed the way. Yeah, right.

Robert 26:45

I crawled into that town, dude. I was really struggling. Yeah, but uh, yeah, that was definitely um one of those Caminos that uh I was like, Lord, why am I here?

Steve 26:55

Yeah, like what am I doing? So uh how many times have you done it by yourself?

Robert 27:01

Oh, that's a good question. Uh 2016, um 2024. Um maybe three times by myself. Yeah, yeah. I like going by myself because um you can just decide, you know what I mean? Like it like this year I'm going like for my granddaughter. Right. So it's not gonna be about me, right? Like, how do I help this kid get you know from Leone to Santiago? Yeah, you know, so and what does she need? She needs to get on a bus, we get on a bus. You know what I mean? I I can't let my ego get in yeah, yeah. You know, so that's it's a different experience. Yeah, I'd say three. Uh-huh. Yeah.

Steve 27:42

And you enjoy that because you're kind of picking up like comrades along the way. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Robert 27:49

Like in 2024, I was almost never alone. Yeah. You know what I mean? People from all over the world. But uh, but when I wanted to be alone, I could be alone. Right. You know, yeah. And I still did what I wanted to do. Right. You know, which sometimes seemed weird to other people, but yeah. Um, I still talk to uh this um a young man, well, he was 33, he's 33 now, um, Alessandro from Italy, and he texts me, messages me, Robert, you are the president of the Camino. He was really funny.

Steve 28:22

Yeah. Um, yeah. And so you do um see people from year to year that you recognize.

Robert 28:31

Once in a while. Yeah. The the the story that I tell is that in 2015, my wife and I, that was our first Camino, and we really didn't know what it was about. Right. You know, and so we're taking buses and taxis, but you're trying to hide from other other pilgrims. You don't want to, you know, get spotted as a pilgrim on a bus. But um, so we take this car, a taxi, into town, and we go to the first cafe, um, and there's a guy behind the bar with a counter, and he uh so he introduces himself as um as Robert. I go, I'm Robert too. He goes, You talking to me? The day was was Manny. Okay, but he he he looked a little bit like De Nero. Yeah, yeah. And so uh so he said, Come back tonight. We have a uh a donation dinner. So I I serve um paella, and uh, you know, I invite any pilgrim that comes in today. And so we went back that night for dinner, it was awesome, and um everyone told their stories, and he would translate into English or into Spanish or whatever. So it was a lot of fun. And at the end, I gave him you know the money, my our donation, and I gave he gave me a hug and he said Buen Camino, which everyone says, and many more. And I I said to him, You're crazy, dear. I'll I'll never come back to this country. Yeah, and uh so two years later, 2017, we're gonna we're on the meseta and we're going to another different town, and he is the um the host of a of a different albergue. I go, Manny, he goes, I don't know you. Yes, you do. And so we stopped and had lunch there. Yeah. So once in a while. Although I I did see um, yeah, I mean it's it's crazy. Sometimes you see people like that you've met before. Yeah, you know.

Steve 30:18

Um that's cool. That is cool. So what's the um, you know, obviously you talked about how some people are doing it just because they were doing like the the hiking challenge, but like what's your sort of like religious um ritual, not ritual, but what's your religious practice during the day like average day? Are you okay?

Robert 30:40

Well, last year was different because I was with two priests. Yeah. So they were they're obligated to say certain prayers. Uh-huh. So they would pray together on the on the road, and I wouldn't As they're walking?

Steve 30:50

Yeah, they would, yeah. And they say it out loud?

Robert 30:52

Yeah, because it's kind of like choral. Oh, okay, yeah. All right, so they're Dominicans, so they're almost like they're kind of monastic. Yeah, you know, they're not monks, but they're there's a monastic aspect. So when they pray, they pray in choir, you know. So the ones, you know, this side says something, that side says something.

Steve 31:08

Yeah.

Robert 31:08

And they often sing their prayer. Uh-huh. So um, which is very monastic.

Steve 31:13

Yeah.

Robert 31:13

You know. So they um, so one non-negotiable was mass every day.

Steve 31:18

Uh-huh.

Robert 31:19

So we were getting up and they would they would find a place um in the Alberga to say mass. You only need a little corner, you know. But then it got really warm and they said we want to leave earlier. So let's say mass at midnight. So they started waking me up at like quarter to twelve. We'd have mass at midnight. It's only 20 minutes. Yeah. And you'd go back to bed, and we'd get up early and walk in the dark, which is sort of yeah, yeah. So that was uh, so that was kind of superimposed, but the mass was beautiful, you know what I mean? So every day we had mass, every single day.

Steve 31:50

Yeah.

Robert 31:50

And then I'd say my rosary. But for me, when I'm on my own, I usually say the full rosary in the morning. Uh-huh. So I'll just pray the rosary the whole way. And then I also will do the Jesus Prayer, which is um, have you ever read uh The Way of the Pilgrim? No, it's a cool book. It's about a Russian pilgrim. I think it's uh anonymous, I don't think there's an authorship. And uh he basically he's just a pilgrim and he walks you know from town to town, and yeah, he um he looks for charity as far as where he's gonna sleep, what what he's gonna eat. But he says the Jesus prayer so Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me as sinner. So that's his prayer over and over and over and over again until it seeps into his heart and it becomes part of his his being. Yeah. I I pray that a lot on the Camino because it's simple, yeah, and um, and it gives me um it gives me a focus. Yeah. So those two the rosary and then the Jesus prayer are two big prayers for me. And uh and then if I can get to mass, which is not always guaranteed, you know what I mean?

Steve 32:54

So along the along the trail, there might be I'm I'm assuming like in Europe, most of the small little villages all have a church. Yes. So you can stop each wherever and you well, I guess you have to time it right because they're not doing mass all day or no, right?

Robert 33:10

But sometimes you come into town and there's no mass because there's the priest isn't from that town.

Steve 33:15

Right. And he does a visit or rotation, right?

Robert 33:18

Yeah. But you can always stop in and and visit the churches, right?

Steve 33:21

Which is uh they're usually available and they're probably nice and cool and shady compared to or musty sometimes.

Robert 33:30

I mean, they're like sometimes they're like, you know, 800 years old. Yeah, it's not like you know the states.

Steve 33:34

Um, but along the way, are there like big um sort of uh spots or famous spots that you would stop as a pilgrim? I know at the end you stop at a cathedral, right?

Robert 33:47

Right. So um if you start in Saint Jean, right, and you um so the let me think there's an evening mass, a pilgrim mass in Ransay Svais, right? So if you go over the mountain, you get to the uh they have this huge um albergue, which was a monastery, I think, uh converted into a pretty nice, it's one of the nicer um alberges. And so the it's like there's not much there. There's that albergue, and then there's like a like a plaza or like a square, and then there's a church on the left, there's a hotel on your right, and I've stayed there a few times, and um, so that mass is is big. Everyone goes to that mass, and then there's a blessing at the end, you know, in different languages. And so that's the mass is usually said in Spanish. So that's that's one that everyone goes to. Okay. And then um a couple days later, you're in Pamplona, they have uh they have a cathedral there. And so I went to I went I went to Mass there in the morning, and then uh, of course, Burgos has a beautiful, crazy cathedral, like a thousand, you know, maybe 900 years old, but it's yeah, really beautiful. Yeah. So there's mass there in the morning, and then Lyon, another beautiful cathedral, one of my favorites, um, Gothic, of course. And I think I've been to Mass there too, but definitely Santiago. They have the the noon mass, is the pilgrim's mass. Uh-huh. And so everyone tries to get into Santiago, they go and get their um their compostella, and I'll show you that. Oh, yeah. And this is the credential. So you Oh yeah, you get your stamps. Yeah, you get your stamps all along the way. Yeah. Oh, okay. And this is last year. Um, and these are kind of new. These this was last year was a oh, it's like a wax sealing. Yeah, these people on the side of the road would uh would have these little blocks of wax, yeah, and they charge you two euro. Yeah. So that's cool. Yeah, that's a new uh something.

Steve 35:44

What is the um the uh symbolic reason for the shell?

Robert 35:49

That's a great question. Well, I don't know if I can tell this accurately, but um so St. James went to evangelize Iberia, right? So he went to um evangelize Spain and he was unsuccessful. He came back to Jerusalem and was beheaded by Herod. Uh-huh. So he was the first to die, as far as the uh the apostles go. And then his uh disciples took his body and they put it into a stone boat, and it somehow got back to the uh Iberian Peninsula, and uh so um I'm not sure. So the scallop shell would be like attached to that that journey. Okay, you know, the ocean voyage, yeah, yeah. And there's more specifics too, you know what I mean? And the body wasn't found for years, and then finally it was found in uh so it was found with the bones of two or maybe two of his disciples, so it's not just his bones.

Steve 36:42

Yeah. Um, and so also when did the I see a lot of the stamps on the um the passport or whatever you call it, kind of has this that's your credential the pilgrim uh figure. Is that was there somebody who as far as the history goes, was there like somebody who did it the first time or when did it become a a pilgrimage?

Robert 37:06

Well, 814 Alphonse II, who was like uh I guess I don't know if he was the the king or the he went from Oviedo, so the Primitivo is one of the uh options, and it goes from Oviedo into uh Santiago. It's um that was the first one.

Steve 37:24

Okay, so it's 1200 years. Yeah, wow, yeah.

Robert 37:26

Saint Francis has done it, Charlemagne, supposedly. I'm not sure if the if that lines up. Yeah, wow and that's the stamp from the cathedral. That's the your final stamp. Wow. Then 20% of the pilgrims go on to the uh the ocean. Yeah, finistier, which is the end of the the earth. Yeah, and so that would be a separate compostella. Yeah.

Steve 37:48

Did you ever do that? No to the ocean?

Robert 37:50

No, I would like to do it. Yeah, I don't know if it's in the cards, but uh, I'd like to do that uh actually in the year if we're still around. Um in the year 2033, it's gonna be a a holy year, and uh I'll be what 70 or something? So I would like to do it then. Yeah. This is your compostella. So it's just oh you get that when you're completed. Yeah, this is for free. This is three euro. They get you on the container. That's Latin.

Steve 38:21

It just and they list you as Robertum journey. Yeah, Latin.

Robert 38:25

Yeah. But um, yeah, so at the end of your journey you show them your credential and they give you the compostella saying that you've uh completed the uh wow camino. You have to walk at least um a hundred kilometers. Yeah. That's really it's kind of funky, huh? Nicely done, yeah. So I have a bunch of those in my house. Yeah.

Steve 38:48

Wow. They print it out like they have a computer or something. Because your name Yeah, I don't know.

Robert 38:57

I did they do have computers. This one was a little different. So usually you go into the pilgrim's office and you queue up. Yeah. And then it's in the movie too at the end. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh when it's your turn, you go to the counter and they ask you some questions. You know, what was your reason for doing it? Was it religious, cultural? Yeah, and uh, did you walk the whole way? Yeah, and stuff like that. And uh and then they they take your name from the credential and and put it down. Yeah, but last year they sent us downstairs, no, around the corner, then downstairs, and there was no cue, and we talked to you know, a couple people at the counter. So I don't know what the deal is, if they're breaking it up or something, but uh if you're not in a group, I don't know why we went downstairs, but it didn't feel the same. Yeah, I was like, I don't like this.

Steve 39:44

Yeah. So in the last 10 years, it's basically been about 10 years since you've done it or that you started. Yeah, yeah. Do you feel like um it's changed at all as far as like the the the people that are doing it and the reasons they're doing it? Like, has Instagram like that influenced um yeah, yeah, yeah.

Robert 40:06

Uh I think essentially it's you know, it's the same. Yeah. But uh it's funny you say that because I interviewed these two gentlemen from New Zealand, and uh they were making some great posts, and one guy goes, It's all for the gram. And I didn't understand that. I thought you were talking about cocaine. I was like, what? Anyway, this one had to say, no, that's the instant. I said, Oh, it makes sense. And uh they were really funny, yeah. They were just two crazy guys, dude. You know what I mean? And one was like a national swimming champion, huh? Really tall, crazy dude. Is he could he could walk like you would not believe. Yeah. And uh the other one was uh they were good friends. The other one was uh like a bodybuilder and stuff, and they were just nice, nice people. Yeah. And uh, so I have they're on the the public.

Steve 40:53

So even the um, you know, the Instagram uh the influencers or whatever you call them, there's you feel like this their spirit is still like uh in the right place for the absolutely, yeah.

Robert 41:05

I think that um I mean this is I mean it it attracts all kinds, you know what I mean? Yeah, and unlike like Rome or Jerusalem, um, or like Lords of Fatima, you know, which are very Catholic, this is a Catholic pilgrimage, but it attracts um such a diverse crowd because of the nature of it. Yeah, you know, um it has an appeal, I think, that is not institutional, even though it's like this institutional sure, yeah. It it it lacks that when you're in when you're actually on the road, you don't feel it. Not at all, yeah, you know, and even uh even in Santiago, you know what I mean, you don't feel it. I mean it's just a very um it is mystical, it's very mysterious, yeah. And the beauty is that you have these people from all over the world, and uh for the most part, 90, 99% of the time, everyone's getting along. Yeah, different philosophies, different theologies. Yeah, and uh people are just very open to each other. I think they're uh you could say, like, okay, you know, that most of these people, these pilgrims, tend to be seekers anyway. Right. And they're not, you know, but I think that is I think that does violence to like who knows?

Steve 42:19

Yeah.

Robert 42:20

Who knows? I mean, like in any given year now, it's almost 500,000 people are do the Camino. Now, they don't make, you know, some people don't make it to um Santiago, right? So they don't register. Right. So the the uh cathedral might say, oh, this year, you know, 250,000 people registered in Santiago, but you have a lot of Europeans that just do weeks at a time, right? Yeah, people like myself and my wife who didn't get to Santiago, yeah, you know what I mean? So uh a lot of people are out there, yeah.

Steve 42:52

Um and what's the um you obviously can't do it in the winter, right?

Robert 43:01

You can, uh, but a lot of the albergues are closed.

Steve 43:06

So most people if you probably try to wrap it up by like November, somewhere in that range.

Robert 43:14

Yeah, I would never suggest a winter hike, but people do it.

Steve 43:17

So when do the albergues close?

Robert 43:20

Uh I'd say some October, some November.

Steve 43:23

It might be interesting to kind of do it slightly off season.

Robert 43:27

I think, yeah, it would definitely be interesting. Yeah, you know, um, you might have to carry a little bit more. Right. You might, unless you can, you know, you can layer too. Yeah. It would be interesting. So if you left, I mean the movie actually they end November seventh in the movie.

Steve 43:41

Oh, okay.

Robert 43:42

Which is off season almost. Yeah. And the colors in the movie are pretty in interesting, you know what I mean? The color of the fields and the fields and everything. But um if you left October and uh walked into November, I think that would be cool. Yeah. You know, I don't think you'd have a problem staying anywhere. Yeah. And uh I think uh it would be very um I think you'd have a lot of quiet time. Right. So I would recommend that.

Steve 44:08

Yeah.

Robert 44:09

But uh for myself, I don't think I'd ever go into uh into December or January.

Steve 44:14

Because you're going into the mountains and who knows.

Robert 44:17

Unless you could drop down, you know what I mean? Like you could uh uh uh avoid the mountains and stuff. Yeah. Start in Pomplona.

Steve 44:24

Yeah.

Robert 44:25

But who knows? I don't know what kind of weather they have.

Steve 44:28

It might get rainier.

Robert 44:30

Yeah. Yeah. I've definitely walked in the rain though, well, the whole day, you know, just pouring on you. You're like, what the heck? Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's not always fun. Yeah. And that's another thing I have to think about with my my granddaughter because it's gonna be a limited time. And if I do um a return trip, say I pay for the the return trip also, then we're gonna be limited as far as uh I mean you can always take a bus or a taxi.

Steve 44:52

Right. So you you you need to be in a certain spot to fly home. Yeah, yeah.

Robert 44:56

So it'll be in Santiago on day like I think I like it's like from Lyon to Santiago is 200 miles. Uh-huh. But it's it's one of the more difficult parts of the Francaise. Uh-huh. I think. Um, even though, unless you're young and you've but for the most part, for me at this stage of my life, it there's some difficult terrain. And uh, so I think if you look it up, it says, you know, between 14 and 16 days you can do it. But I want to give our I want to give us maybe a few extra days. Yeah. So I can break up some of those longer uh stages. Right.

Steve 45:34

You know, and give you flexibility as if you have to take a rest or right.

Robert 45:38

Yeah. So that's cool. Yeah. Now, what about let me ask you a few questions? Yeah. What what do you think it would cost?

Steve 45:46

Oh, I was gonna ask you that. Oh, okay.

Robert 45:48

Um well, I'm looking at that right now.

Steve 45:50

Yeah. Um I you want me to guess? Yeah. Uh I'm gonna go with um 75 euros a day.

Robert 46:02

For one or two?

Steve 46:03

For one.

Robert 46:04

Oh, absolutely. That's actually if you did 75 euro a day, you'd be fine. Yeah. Because with that, you could actually stay in private rooms. Like sometimes albergues, they'll have like a bunk room, but you can say, do you have a private room? And then that might be 20 euro instead of 12 euro.

Steve 46:19

Okay.

Robert 46:19

You know what I mean?

Steve 46:20

So 75, you that would you could actually live pretty large, have big meals. No problem.

Robert 46:26

Yeah. Yeah, you could actually, yeah, that's not a problem. Because if you're on a like a tight budget, you figure in Alberghi right now is between 12 and 15 euro. Yeah. Um, your breakfast is about 10 euro. Yeah. Your lunch is about 15 euro. Yeah. And then your dinner, or your lunch could be like 25 euro if you want to, you know, that's your big meal. Yeah. And then dinner is between 12 and 15. And they oftentimes serve the uh pilgrim's meal, which is um like chicken and fries, pork and fries, pasta, salad, wine, or water, and then like usually a melon. Yeah. I mean, so it that's across the whole.

Steve 47:05

Now I'm kind of a vegetarian. What's what are the vegetarian options on the camino?

Robert 47:11

Well, morning coffee, banana, orange juice, and uh, they have these awesome, uh, these awesome um chocolate croissants that are decadent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. After like 12 of those, you're like, what am I doing? But they fill the void. Yeah. Um, so that's pretty consistent. Yeah. Um, then for lunch, you can get the salad. They they do serve it with tuna. Oh, yeah. As a protein. I'll eat that. Okay. So you get you can get that salad across the whole thing. It's got like these white um uh asparagus, like the white asparagus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that my wife usually eats that. Yeah. And then for dinner, like say you're at a place, usually the first course would be pasta or salad. But you can say, can I have salad and then pasta for my mate? And they'll be like, Well, okay. Yeah, yeah. So you can usually do that. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve 48:03

I mean, I probably would eat.

Robert 48:04

I'm not a real strict vegetarian, but yeah, I tend toward uh being more vegetarian than, but I'll I'll eat meat, you know what I mean? But I don't I don't love lots of meat. Right. I can eat meat like twice a week. Yeah. You know what I mean? And then I just don't, it's just heavy for me. Right. So my constitution is more if I can keep it light, or I just eat Cheetos. Yeah. More of a Cheeto guy. Yeah. So you can find it, but it's not gonna be like um sometimes you might have to look, you know what I mean? Yeah, and then sometimes you come into a town and there's like um there's one, there's one Albergia that's vegetarian and the food is fabulous. Yeah, you know what I mean? Sometimes you really hit it. Yeah.

Steve 48:41

So um, yeah. So 50 to 75 a day.

Robert 48:47

Yes. Yeah. Uh yeah, now I mean things are you know uh increased, they're they're increasing in in price. So it used to be like, but sometimes you hit a uh a donation place where the you know you get five euro to sleep. Yeah, but usually like you know, you you're gonna leave with bed bugs. Yeah, so it's that's not uh not fun. Uh you know, so that's it, that's a possibility too. Yeah. And the flights right now, so I'm looking at uh like between eight and a thousand. Yeah. That's uh you know the nature of it. Yeah. So and I would fly from Boston to Madrid, from Madrid this year. I'll take a high-speed train to Lyon.

Steve 49:27

Do you spend the night in Madrid?

Robert 49:28

No, we'll go right to Lyon. Go straight to Lyon. Yeah, spend a night in Lyon. Hopefully, with the afternoon, we get to see the uh cathedral. And they have a great brewery in uh in Lyon. They're I always stop there. Yeah, like Hopper just waited uh probably out in a couple hours has a coloring book, yeah, yeah. I just come on in and have a few beers with me. Yeah, yeah. Um but that cathedral, I've got to show that cathedral, it's just that beautiful. Yeah, but Leone has a ton of places to eat and stay. Um my wife and I in 2015 we stayed at the Paradois, okay, which is like a usually an old monastery that's converted into like a one, two, three-star hotel. Yeah. Right. And um, so we stayed there. It's in the movie too. You know, they're going through Leon, they stay there. And uh Martin Sheen pays for all of them. I don't know. Do you remember that scene? No, it's been a long time since I saw it. And so uh so we stayed there, and the next day we met, we we we had met this kid before. He was from uh I forget what he was from Brazil. His name was Cicero. And uh he had a pack, you would not believe. He was camping out and he's rolling his own cigarettes. He was like, yeah, really a funky dude, really nice kid. And he sees us the next day. We're on the trail. He goes, Where'd you stay last night? I said, I can't tell you. I said, Where'd you stay? Down by the river in my tent. He goes, No, where'd you stay? He goes, In the park? I said, No. He goes, in Alberga? I said, no. He goes, Where did you stay? I said, I'm not telling you. So I never did tell him. Yeah. I said, no, I can't. But it's plush. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, I'm drinking the Gronies at the bar. I mean, it's just not not really for a true pilgrim.

Steve 51:15

Yeah, well, that's the beginning, though, right? Beginning? Was that the beginning of the that was your first night?

Robert 51:20

No, no, that's deep into the that was one of the last nights. Okay, so you know, yeah, you you earned it. That year, maybe. Yeah, we were a mess. Yeah. We're the two most unlike uh unlikely pilgrims to finish. Yeah. Or yeah, it was bad. We were just a mess. Yeah. Um, yeah, that's cool. So ultimately, like this year for both of us, I'm thinking like if I have 7,500, that'll cover everything. Yeah. And that's actually being very generous. Yeah. Because I don't know what's going to happen. Right. I think I could probably do it for a lot less.

Steve 51:53

Yeah.

Robert 51:53

You know.

Steve 51:54

Um, so when you're in some of these albergues and you're you're kind of it's like dormitory style. It can be. Is that um how do you how do you like deal with? I mean, are you okay with that as far as people snoring and oh yeah, I'm loud. I'm the one snoring.

Robert 52:11

Uh last year was funny because one of the priests was a big dude, right? He's like 6'4. Yeah. And he's just, and he he was snoring out of control, dude. So the next morning, I like, I was like, we're with, I was with a few other pilgrims, and I said, dude, you snore out of control. No, I don't. And then that there's a woman from uh Denmark, she was oh yes, you do. He was like, Yeah.

Steve 52:33

I was like, whoa. Well, plus you have the uh you have your recording equipment, you could always play it back far. Yeah, right.

Robert 52:40

But uh no, I don't I can sleep through anything. And I'm usually the one that's violating everyone else's pin.

Steve 52:45

And you're walking all day and you're tired, so yeah, yeah, yeah.

Robert 52:49

So yeah. Um last year we actually ended up in a lot of very nice albergues as far as they were clean. Yeah. And um that's what you want. Yeah, just want it to be clean. Yeah, and some of the bathrooms were awesome too. That's another one. You want a decent bathroom, decent shower. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, and they know, I mean, it's I mean, it's a high volume. Right. So the Franciis is like, you know, that's where you have most of the people.

Steve 53:16

Yeah.

Robert 53:16

And uh that's what I recommend. But uh, you know, the Norte is probably the most beautiful, yeah. The Portuguese, my wife loved the Portuguese uh Camino. There are different routes, there's central and there's coastal, and then there's one like we walked for like right on the coast on uh the boardwalk for miles. Um, I didn't really like my wife loves the ocean, yeah, and uh I love the mountains. Um I didn't I would never do the Portuguese again. Yeah, so I didn't I didn't really like it. They say it's the second most popular, uh-huh. But I would advocate for the Frances, you know, and if not the norte. Yeah, if people are in shape, yeah, you know, and you might have to take a few extra. I don't know what you'd have to pack. Yeah, the lighter you pack, the better off you are, right?

Steve 54:04

Yeah, you can always dump stuff along the line.

Robert 54:07

And you can buy stuff too, right? I dump a lot of stuff, yeah. I have bought, I think, three or four um sleeping bags and have they have never come back with me. So I'm like, I give them away. Hey, you want to sleep bag?

Steve 54:20

So you have to bring your sleeping bag into the albergue?

Robert 54:23

Only like one albergue said you have to use a sleeping bag or at least um, you know, the um the liners, yeah. Um, those are kind of recommended too. So the liner is tiny. I have one of those. Okay, great. Right. So that's what I if you go in the summer, that's what I recommend. Yeah. I think only once they told me I had a I had it. So I had to actually buy something.

Steve 54:45

Yeah.

Robert 54:45

And they had them. And then I got rid of it. Yeah. So for the most part, I would just go to well, I can remember one night we were in uh I forget what town it was. It was before Burgos. And there's uh, I don't know if it's a town, it was just there's this um church, and then there's uh an albergue, and uh and so um I was just sleeping in my t-shirt and my shorts. Yeah, and I woke up at like two in the morning, kind of cold, like not freezing, but and so this massive pile of blankets, uh which is like the you know, not something you'd probably use. I just went over and I said, I don't care, whatever. And I just so whatever. Yeah, I didn't get any bed bugs. Although it was kind of a it wasn't the cleanest place in the world. Yeah, you never know.

Steve 55:29

Yeah.

Robert 55:30

Karen's been bitten three times by the bed bugs, yeah, yeah. And she has allergy, uh, she's allergic to them, so she blisters. Yeah, it's cool, it's not clean. I've never had it, but Mary has. She has, yeah.

Steve 55:40

When we were in Hawaii, uh there was we were at a hotel and there was but they didn't get me, we were in the same bed.

Robert 55:47

So yeah, no, I I I got bitten, but I I wasn't, you know, uh allergic to the bite.

Steve 55:53

So yeah, it's not good, but what are you gonna do? Yeah, it's the life of a life of a pilgrim.

Robert 56:00

And that's the thing. I do love the the the um the pilgrimage for me definitely concretizes the fact that I'm a pilgrim here. Yeah. And the thing is, like I need to be reminded of that, I guess, every year. Yeah. Because it's something that dissipates when you get back. Yeah, you know, you you you hoard things and you buy things, but on the road, you're like, do I want to carry that? Right. And that's where the attitude we should this is my this is my takeaway, is the attitude we should have as Christians. Like, do I really want to um do I want the world, you know, with all of its glit, yeah, glitz and glamour, or do I want Christ? Yeah, and and the simplicity of of uh being a a Christian, right? And so I think that you they're wedded. I don't think you can really um divest yourself uh from that yeah that mindset. That's my perspective. I think that's the gift I've been given from the Camino. Yeah, you know, like because I I always overpack every year. Karen's like, you you do this every year. What's your problem? I've I don't know. Yeah, and then I'm like, like even this equipment, do I really want to bring it?

Steve 57:06

Right. But I I do I mean you're that's part of your your your thing. You're doing a podcast, you need you need that, right?

Robert 57:14

So that's cool.

Steve 57:17

And you bring all these microphones and everything?

Robert 57:18

I bring one mic. No, actually, I bring both mics, I don't bring the stands. Uh-huh. And so I bring these cords, I bring both mics, and I bring this.

Steve 57:27

People just hold the hold the microphone. Yeah, yeah.

Robert 57:29

Which is not the best though, because a lot of times it they fade, and then like I had a couple of uh podcasts that I can't use because like the sound was off. Yeah, yeah. So this is ideal. Yeah, but I'm not carrying this. Yeah. Because it does add up.

Steve 57:43

Oh, yeah.

Robert 57:44

On the body, too. Like, I told you, I think in 2024, I had a lot of stuff. I had all of this, I had my computer. I probably had 20 more than 20 pounds. They they say they recommend you should carry 10% of your weight.

Steve 58:00

Yeah.

Robert 58:01

So that's it, that's a good thing to live by. And so I started, I was fine, you know. But instead of getting stronger, I got weaker.

Steve 58:09

Yeah.

Robert 58:10

So by the end, I was a mess.

Steve 58:12

Right.

Robert 58:12

I had done 400 miles and I was like, I can't, I'm done. Yeah, I was just done. Yeah. You know, I had blisters, I was just old. Yeah. I felt it. I can remember getting to this one stage, and we had you have to climb this um rocky mountain um up toward O Sabrero, a town that I I really love. And I was with this kid from Minnesota, not a kid, he was in his 40s. I go, Eric, just go. He goes, What? I go, just leave me. I said, I am not doing well. He goes, really? I said, no, just leave. And so he just he left, and uh, which was to his benefit. And I crawled up that mountain, right? And then it started pouring, dude. But it uh the it was covered by foliage, so you know, so the the path was kind of covered. So I get up to this uh La Faba or something, this small town uh before O Sobrero, and I stopped there for the night, and he's texting me, Oh, what what um don't you have a room in O Sobrero? I said, I do, but yeah, I'm not gonna make it. You can have it. So I stayed there that night. Yeah, I was I really struggled. Yeah. And then I only went for another day or two before I just gave in. Yeah. Yeah. So you never know. Yeah. But the lighter the better. Yeah. That's it. Yep. Anything else?

Steve 59:32

I don't think so. Um I'm I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, yeah.

Robert 59:36

So uh what route would you um tend toward?

Steve 59:40

Well, I'm an ocean guy, so I might like Karen's uh the Portuguese.

Robert 59:46

Oh, or the norte. Or or because it's up in the mountain. This is up in the mountains down to the shore.

Steve 59:51

And I do like the mountains too. So that's depends. I don't know. Yeah, yeah.

Robert 59:54

Yeah. But you're gonna have it's gonna be a different experience because there's gonna be less pilgrims, they're gonna be usually more fit.

Steve 1:00:01

Right. It it's the it's the athlete's pilgrimage.

Robert 1:00:05

It's the most difficult. Yeah, yeah, I would say that.

Steve 1:00:08

But um, yeah, I don't know. I'll have to Portuguese is cool. You should watch the movie.

Robert 1:00:14

Supposedly there's a sequel. Oh, is there? That was the uh that was the word on the last Camino they were saying that was uh they were gonna walk the Portuguese, huh? So I hope so.

Steve 1:00:24

And then you've probably told me this before, but how did Martin Sheen get involved? Did he do it?

Robert 1:00:30

No, this well, this is really crazy. So Martin Sheen's father is from Galicia, that's what Santi, that's where the uh cathedral is. So he always kind of wanted to do it, and so uh I think uh he was doing the West Wing. Oh, okay. He didn't have time to do it, so he took a tour of the Camino with a friend and his and Emilio's son. So Emilio's son, his name is either Taylor or uh I don't I don't know what his name I think it's Taylor. So the three of them were driving it. Like any good American, I drove the Camino. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steve 1:01:02

And uh In an El Camino.

Robert 1:01:07

So they said he um tells a story where um they stop at this Albergue and his grandson, um, so they stay at this albergue. So he the grandson meets this girl and falls in love, right? And he says to Martin Sheen, Papa, I'm staying here. You're not staying here. Yeah, yes, I am. Because no. Anyway, they eventually, like five years later, got married. Oh wow, right. So he does fall in love, and uh, the wedding is at this house that they're thinking you went there, right? Yeah, we ended up there, which is off the camino. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we ended up uh the uh this woman's brother, we meet him, he takes us to that house and we stay there and we meet his parents and they're in the movie. Uh-huh. I'm like, there's no way you can end up there, it's just impossible. Right. Because it's off the camino.

Steve 1:01:58

Yeah.

Robert 1:01:59

But um, so then Emilio wrote the movie for his father. Uh-huh. And uh when he showed them uh the script to his father, he goes, Yeah, you know what? This is I'm I'm no longer an A actor, right? I'm on the decline. He goes, No, Dad, I wrote this for you. Yeah, and so that's how uh that came about. Yeah.

Steve 1:02:17

Wow.

Robert 1:02:18

Very interesting. Yeah. So I hope they do a sequel. Yeah. It's like Mel Gibson's doing uh the resurrection, right? He is, yeah, it's gonna come out in two parts next year. It's gonna come out like months uh apart. It's interesting. Yeah, he's a character, yeah. That he is, yeah, yeah. So that's awesome. I'm glad you're you're into it. Yeah. And uh the the the um the uh saying on the road is buen camino. You say that to everyone. Yeah. Buen camino, which means good journey, a good road, and stuff like that. And uh it's interesting because um sometimes you see someone, you say that to them, and then like days later you end up in a conversation with them, you know, oh I saw you two towns ago. Yeah, but that's the the you know, the the commonality is you're all on pilgrimage, which is true for us uh in life. Right, yeah, but we don't recognize that. Right. And uh like we're in competition with each other. We're on the Camino, you realize, well, what competition? Right. Like, you know, this is good for you, it's good for me. Like there's no yeah, you know, yeah. And so that's uh that's another concept that uh I think since I've started the Camino, I've grappled with like competition. Is it really healthy? I mean, as Americans, we're like, oh, it's definitely healthy. You want to compete to be your best. Is it really it shouldn't we cooperate so that people can get there together? Sure, yeah. I don't know. Yeah, what do I know? Yeah, one thing about the Camino is a lot of time to think, dude.

Steve 1:03:44

Yeah.

Robert 1:03:45

You walk and when you walk, I was just reading Walking by Thoreau last night. Uh-huh. That's a good piece. Yeah. I don't think I've ever read it.

Steve 1:03:53

Um, is it a com is it a standalone piece by Thoreau? I've definitely read it.

Robert 1:04:00

It's an essay that I think he maybe maybe it was a lecture.

Steve 1:04:03

Okay.

Robert 1:04:03

It sounds like a lecture, yeah. But it does stand alone in some volumes, and then it comes with other stuff too. Yeah. It's really good. It's very biblical. Uh-huh. I'm sorry.

Steve 1:04:14

I read a book once, um, I think it was called Peregrination or something like that, and it talked a lot about that. Really? Yeah. And it was all about walking. The whole book was like, I don't know if it was all focused on uh pilgrimages, but it was like the benefits of of long distance walking. Right, right. But I think a lot of you know, obviously Thoreau did supposedly Beethoven. That's where he did a lot of his composition. He would walk every day through the through the woods. Really? Yeah. A lot of philosophers. And he could write, you know, he could write it in his mind. He didn't need to like put it on paper. Really? But he did it, like his ideas came. I find like I do that too if I'm because I try to walk like you know, a few times a week, like at least an hour. And it's you know, it is a time where you can just um it's it's a thinking time, you know, because you're just alone by yourself and you're not distracted or so.

Robert 1:05:08

Yeah. Well, that's another actually uh a recommendation. Like so Karen would listen to music. I tend not to. Yeah, sometimes I'll play music out loud if I'm with like to kind of just share it with someone, you know. But I think uh I would recommend that you just try to embrace the experience.

Steve 1:05:24

Yeah, I think I don't think I would listen to music while I was I I've I've never I know people who like a lot and they'll listen to music the whole time. Yeah. And I I I've never done that really.

Robert 1:05:36

Right. So I don't usually do that. Yeah. But I will play some songs like just to like uh whatever, bring someone into my world. Yeah. You know, some punk rock or something. Yeah, yeah. Usually usually the clash. Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm so happy that you're uh Yeah. Yeah.

Steve 1:05:52

I it won't be this summer, but maybe next summer. Yeah, yeah.

Robert 1:05:55

Yeah. I think you guys will like you love it. Yeah. You know, I don't want to impose that on you. Because you might hate it. Right. But I don't think so. No, I doubt it. You know, I did meet a guy from Seville, maybe. I don't know if I told you the story. Is he a barber? I don't know. But uh he was a phys ed teacher in Spain. He said, every summer. I he was sitting on a bench, so I just sat next to him, right? I was lonely. Yeah. It was probably 2016. And uh and so he tells me, you know, he's a phys ed teacher, blah, blah, blah. Every summer usually goes to a beach or something, you know what I mean? And he said, So we'll I so he started he got off and I said, Do you mind if I walk with you? So we're walking a little bit. And he and he said, I'm having a horrible time. I hate this. I'm like, really? You hate this? And he goes, Well, do you like to travel to me? And I said, No, I don't like to travel at all. He goes, Do you like to walk? I said, I'm not really a walker. He goes, Why are you here? I said, I'm praying. It's a pilgrimage. I'm here to pray, you know. And he started laughing. But uh, yeah, he said he he hated it, which is unusual. I that's that's unusual. Yeah. But sometimes you meet someone like I know remember in 2015, Karen and I met this young woman from the States, and she was she said, you know what, if I don't find some companionship soon, I'm going home. Yeah. So she was looking for someone to walk with, which is huh, you know, and we weren't the the couple that she wanted to walk with. Not you guys. So that's once in a while, but for the most part, people are um are happy to be there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's so countercultural. Yeah. Yeah. You're walking. Right. That's all you're doing. Yeah. And you don't have to prove anything to anyone. Right. So I it's a it's really uh no, I see you guys as like you'll love it. Yeah. Yeah. Start getting their plans together. All right. Well, thank you very much. Hey, thanks for thanks for having me in the conversation.