These Holy Bones: Vol.2-Episode 19: Miracles with Father John Baptist Ku

In this episode, my good friend and fellow pilgrim, Father John Baptist Ku, discusses miracles from a Thomistic perspective. Some people may think that miracles are a thing of the past, but Father Ku argues that miracles are part of God's plan even in this modern age. Father Ku is a Catholic theologian with years of teaching experience. He is worth listening to. So grab a cup of coffee, put your feet up and plug in for the next forty minutes. Buen Camino.

Transcript

Robert 0:08

Welcome to another episode of These Holy Bones, a podcast about the ancient pilgrimage to the Cathedral of Santiago de Compostela, where the bones of St. James are interred beneath the high altar. I am your host, Robert Nurney, and today I'm with a good, a very good friend, Father John Baptist Ku, a Dominican friar from the Providence of St. Joseph. Father Coo is a professor of theology and has spent a number of years teaching theology at the Dominican House of Studies in Washington, D.C. Welcome, Father.

Fr. Ku 0:33

Thank you, Robert.

Robert 0:34

And what brings you to Providence, Father?

Fr. Ku 0:36

We have a meeting called a chapter, where we elect our leader, the one who presides over what's called a province. So there are four provinces in the United States of America. And so we elected, re-elected in this case, our our provincial, the one who's in charge and governs the province. And we also deal with legislation, dealing with the common life, religious life, our institutions, what do we want to say, what do we want to emphasize, and also just make appointments, novice master, student master, things like that. So I've been here for the first week is a retreat and discussion of broader themes, priorities, and then the second week is at the end of that week, we elected the provincial, in this case, re-elected, and then the second week is is all legislation. And we use Robert's rules of order. Oh, which yeah, we which are work really well. And you see the fraternity, people have different opinions, but the spirit was fraternal, and the process really works, and we come we end up with legislation, and that's overall effective and and on on point. So committee process, you know, you're always risking it's it's good because it brings everyone's viewpoint to bear, but of course there are compromises and uh there can be legislation can be written imperfectly because you have a bunch of people trying to do this.

Robert 1:56

Right, right, right. That's almost an art um using Robert's rules. Uh-huh. Yeah. You know, because I've used that as a uh Providence teacher. Oh. Our meetings were governed. Okay. Yeah. As far as union goes.

Fr. Ku 2:05

Yes, right, right.

Robert 2:06

That's good. Now, how long is the provincial um what's the tenure? Four years. Oh, so in four years, it's and is there a a max out?

Fr. Ku 2:12

Is he is You are so priors have a two-term limit. I think provincials do too, yes. I remember because the that we did famously, infamously have a provincial who was five had five terms, I believe it was, against the law. And he would if you're so you're you can you're elected, then you can be re-elected, and then you can be if you're since you have a two two-term limit, you can be postulated, because you can't be elected third term, but you can be postulated, and the master would have to sign off on that, the master of the whole order. And so this provincial was very political and very capable, and managed to get in and and somehow had friends in Rome, I guess, that got that managed to get that. So I think that's pretty cool. Oh well, it would be like the Chicago machine where I mean this is so this happens at no not shockingly. I mean, the you know, religious life, the governance is there you have human beings and fallible human beings, and so some at at certain times the church will be afflicted with the same problems we see in the secular life. Yeah.

Robert 3:16

Now the master of the order, is he elected?

Fr. Ku 3:18

He is elected, yes. For the among the Dominicans. I don't know what others all others do, but yes, so there would be delegates sent to the elective chapter, which is just coming up. In fact, at this chapter, we elected our delegates, so the provincial would go with helpers in Latin. We use socius, socii. So he he we elected his assistants, his sochi, to accompany him to go to the next uh uh provincial chapter, excuse me, general chapter to elect the master. Yeah.

Robert 3:44

Okay, that's interesting. Well, very good. All right, so today's episode I'd like to talk about miracles and then maybe touch on one or two miracles associated um with uh St. James the Greater, and because of the Camino, of course. And um, so how would the church define a miracle, Father?

Fr. Ku 4:01

So if we turn to Thomas Aquinas, always reliable, it's a suspension of well, it's God working outside the rules of nature, the laws of nature that he established. So if you drop something, gravity would draw it toward the earth, but something could be miraculously suspended. Uh the dead can be raised to life. So things like that. So Aquinas distinguishes three, you could say, degrees of miracle. One is God's power, and and so the effect produced could only be done by God's power. And the example he uses that the sun is stopped and then reverses, which would mean, as we would know it, the earth stops spinning in that direction and starts spinning in the opposite direction. Nothing, well, it's interesting. You could have something cataclysmic collisions of so you could actually that could happen naturally, but that's not going to happen just on its own, right? The other would be what he says is the what happens is possible to nature, but not in that order, not in that you want to say register or system. So for instance, uh you would have a blind, the blind being having sight restored, because nature's able to give sight. There are things that are born with sight all the time, but if it goes blind, nature can't restore it. So now with surgery, we can sometimes, but in cases where you just wouldn't have enough to work with, or you break a bone, it can't be repaired in a certain way, it you could have a miraculous healing where God acts outside the order, like cancer, right? You've done all the treatments, you're gonna die. You go to uh someone who has the gift of healing prays over you, and you're healed, right? So what nature couldn't do, it's it doesn't what nature could do by healing itself in this case couldn't do, so God works outside the laws of nature. The the last case is God works the the miraculously what could, what nature could do, but he just doesn't do it through the nature. So like fever, uh Peter uh the G Peter's mother-in-law, Jesus took her hand and and when she stood up and the fever left her. Your body heals fevers all the time, but it could be miraculously done where God does what was gonna happen, but he does it not through the natural effects, so just miraculously. Or like studying, you could St. Catherine learned uh how to write by infusion, infused knowledge. Well, if she had sat down and studied grammar, she could have learned. But God gave it to her without it. So that's something that that could happen, but he does it not through the natural causes. So those are the three, and you could have obviously blurry either can be overlap, but those are the three degrees, if you want to say of miracles. But it's God's working outside the laws of nature that he himself established. So the Eucharist would clearly be divine power because nobody can change one substance into another. So that's maybe the most obvious or most awesome one. God chooses to do that, so He can He can do that. But there can be some much smaller ones where something could have happened, but it wouldn't have but God works it without He He brings the effect about not through the natural causes.

Robert 7:13

All right, so are we bound as Catholics to believe in the miracles in the gospels?

Fr. Ku 7:18

Yes. So and sometimes it's unfortunate scholars who have drifted from the faith or read read it with a hermeneutic of skepticism would doubt the miracles. But the it Christ is capable of miracles, Christ, those miracles are recorded, and then and so there this is the this is God speaking through the human writer of scripture and saying this is what happened. So there are cases where there's the literature, what what is the literal sense? What's the intention of the author? The intention of the author can be symbolic or like in say say Genesis, the the creation of the world. What's the author of Genesis? Well, to talk about good and evil, to talk about God creating everything out of nothing, does it mean six 24-hour periods? No, at least Aquinas would say in Augustine. So some of the fathers did think it did think that. But if the if the author's intention was to say six twenty-four-hour periods, then that would be, then that's the that that's the teaching, and and divinely revealed, and you you can't it makes no sense to disagree with it. That's God speaking to us. But if not, if the author is saying, no, I wasn't talking about six twenty-four-hour periods, I'm talking about just God producing things out of nothing, right? So the so just to say there there can be levels of complexity, subtlety in reading scripture, what what is the author's intention has to be established. But if it's the author's intention is to say this happened outside the law of nature by God's divine action, then that is God telling you that's what happened, and those are to be believed. Otherwise, you otherwise you you don't have faith, you have opinion. You're like, well, maybe God's believable, maybe not. I'll I'll decide. That's that's I don't have a relationship of faith with with God if I'm doing that, just as with uh another human being. If you really trust someone, you have a deep relationship of faith. Someone says something, you believe it. But for others, and sometimes you'd have good reason not to believe him, but if you if you you don't have faith, you only have opinion if you if you don't if you're not acting on trust, but you're now weighing everything and and and deciding conjecture, right? So you because you can have faith, you can have opinion, you can have doubt, or you can have suspicion.

Robert 9:35

It's interesting. What about like um so the church has uh okayed Fatima as a you know as a reality, right? So the Blessed Mother, the church would say, Yes, she appeared. We have no problem with it. We did an investigation, I don't know how many years. Now, um, one of the miracles was the dancing sun. Uh you know, the the uh whatever it was, the meadow or whatever they call it was um the there were 70,000 people that saw this. Now, is that a miracle that we it would be considered a deposit of faith, or is that something that you don't have to believe?

Fr. Ku 10:04

No, so not a deposit of faith, but it would be you could say investigated and approved, nothing contrary to the faith, discovered, and also uh recommended for belief. That this is that it was investigated, and all the signs are it's true, and so that's a glorious thing that God it's you could say recommended, so like you can make pilgrimages to to this place because this it's authentic. So it was investigated, couldn't find any problems with it. All the witnesses said this happened, so this is not God speaking with divine authority. This is here are signs. Everyone involved with this says this happened. You go look, it just all the evidence says yes, there's nothing contrary. It's it's also producing good fruit, you know, like there's there there are conversions through it and and so forth. So it's not a matter of deposit of faith, but it's investigated, approved, and recommended. So then you have it's it's a it's it can it's it's recommended for devotion. It can be uh it's a it's power, it can be powerful in helping people come to the Lord, but it's not a matter of faith, because you could you just you just you're not that the church has approved it, investigated and approved it, but it's not divine revelation. Yeah.

Robert 11:26

Okay, very good. Um so the Camino is interesting because it unlike I this is my perspective, of course, it's just uh my singular perspective, unlike Lourdes or Fatima, or even we'll keep those two, um, which are very Catholic pilgrimages, the Camino really attracts a very diverse type of uh, you know, body of pilgrims. And through my uh experiences, you know, oftentimes um your fellow pilgrim doesn't believe in miracles and doesn't believe that the bones of St. James are interred beneath the high altar, and doesn't believe that the the stone boat, you know, that the disciples put um James' body in and sent it off actually arrived in uh in Spain. So um what would you how would you approach that if you were talking to a pilgrim who felt like uh that that this pilgrimage really was just for economics, that the church started this because um it was economics and also it pushed back the Moors, you know what I mean? So it was more of a uh a plot to um satisfy the um cash and then also you know uh to govern the land. What would you would you actually uh what would you say to a person like that says this is just it's almost Marxist, it's economic.

Fr. Ku 12:39

Well, the church doesn't seem to be making a lot of money on it, but other other people are, so I'd point to that. You know, if it it's you're not a very good if this is a Marxist fundraiser, you're not right. You're we're doing poorly, right? Right? So it's it's yeah, so uh the the evidence there the evidence isn't there that that you're making money on it. I mean it's uh we're not. So that's that's one thing I'd point out. Your second, oh, that it's like it's it's political way. What did you you had a a oh oh to push the Moors out? Well, that that didn't succeed either, right? So uh that so I'd I'd point to those and say, if those if it were if it were financial, then it would have the pilgrimages would have stopped when it was not making money. Because maybe at a certain one time it was. I I I don't know the history, but maybe churches were making money at the beginning, and maybe they were succeeding with crusaders at a certain point. Okay. It's continued, Robert. It's continued. Why? Because there's there's because there's more than either of those two uh attractions. But by far. Right, right. There's something spiritual that's very interesting, and I did, you didn't you didn't say this, but we made the communal. This was my first one and your tenth one, amazingly. And that was one surprising thing. The the other priest who came with us, Father Jerome, was kind of shocked and saddened by the number of people who are not coming for spiritual reasons, we're in a Catholic, well, they have Catholic, they still have Catholic royalty. So a Catholic country, even if it's not terrifically observant and practicing, a Catholic pilgrimage about St. James, you're you're you're walking to the cathedral of St. James, and so many people were not did not have that intention. And even in you, as you recall, the one devout man who who came when we had mass at midnight, he he came to with us to mass, and then later Father Joe asked him, Oh, you know, what's your primary intention on this? And he expected him to have some profound uh way to strengthen his soul or his relationship with his parents or something. But he the he he paused and he's like, What's my primary intention? What's my primary intention? And he couldn't he couldn't think of anything. And you know, he he also goes hiking, he's an ex-military, so he was hiking in various countries. He just likes to hike. So it was something like that. Father Droom was totally crestfallen because so your point is exactly right. Surprisingly, there are many people who are drawn, so though still doesn't mean it's not spiritual in some way that the Lord's not working, but it's not explicitly or overtly religious, in a surprising way. So, what draws them, so it's not so money that's that's just not in the picture, if it ever was, uh to to to push the the the Moors out or the the you know Muslim conquerors out of the land, uh that's also not just relevant. So they're not in Spain, but you're also not going to the Holy Land. So it would be there's something people sense that there's something more to life than playing with their cell phone, where not just atoms swirling in the void. They want to you do hear the ones who are somewhat uh clearly not for an explicitly religious reason, but it's to get outside of their either their comfort zone or do something different, challenge themselves. There's something where they want to be renewed. And so that that's not nothing. That is that's an instinct that so even if it's not explicit to them, it would be God is saying this world cannot satisfy you. They want something more than their ordinary life had, even if they have a good job, good relationships on the whole, and they're eating well, and so good health, they there's there's something more. Even if you recall, uh if I could we we met a Hells Angel walking on the community. You remember that guy from Germany? A German one Hell's Angels in Germany, and he's like, hell yeah, you're like, okay. I totally forgot that guy, yes. And he's like seven years old. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. He he what? Oh my gosh. So people, why would why would some there's something more to life enough to make them leave their comfort zone because it's it's hot. It's not like you're you're well let me go to a different resort, or I have never haven't skied here, or I haven't got this is you're sweating, you're thirsty, there are bugs. There's the it's just you why would you do this? Well, they're you're sleeping with another you know, 20 people and you have to take a mattress and bring it downstairs. Because it's hot as a dog, there are mosquitoes, that you can have hostile they're called hostels, which is supposed to mean that you're being welcomed, but there can be hostile, hostile managers. That's true, as we discovered. Right. Um, why would they be attracted to that? Why would they do that job if they're not, you know, one to want to welcome them. Right, right, right. So there's something more. There's there's thirsting for something more.

Robert 17:37

So that so that I always love like um in with uh within a conversation, I mean there are like um dominant questions, like why are you doing the community? That's you know, and uh so um I would always say, Well, it's religious, you know, and they'd be like, Oh, that's interesting. Um that was often the response that that's interesting. I'm like, really? Is it interesting? But people often would say, Well, it's not religious, but it's spiritual. I'd be like, that's really uh that's um like a cop out, but also be careful because it is spiritual. But what kind of spirits are you dealing with? You know what I mean? So I think part of it is I don't know if people are afraid to commit or they feel like you know they there is a spirit out here, and that's you know, I'm open to that, but um, I always found that kind of weird, a weird response. But that's a that's a common response. Yes. What would you say to that?

Fr. Ku 18:21

No, well it's funny. I had that exact experience with the a Korean lady who was Christian and an organist, and I I met her near the it near the end, and she asked me why I made the Camino, was making the Camino, and I said, To grow in holiness, or something or like to strengthen strengthen my soul. And she was like, Really? And you're like, Well, why else would I do that? But and also then she was saying when I asked her, she was saying, Oh, well, I I accept all beliefs or something like that. She was just being theist. I said, and then but then I said, Oh, I thought you played in, you know, you said you played in the church in the Anglican church and whatever. And she said, Oh, yeah, no, well, I'm I'm Christian. I said, Okay, so well then you believe in Jesus. She said, Yes. And I said, So you don't believe in Muhammad? She said, right, you don't believe in the Hindu gods, right? So there can sometimes be this very welcoming, broad attitude when actually, if you reflect on it, no. It's so it's one thing to want to be welcoming to others, absolutely, to to to to all people, but to all beliefs, no. When I pressed her on that, she was then really she agreed. She was like, no, actually, you're right. I don't I don't believe any of that. I reject, I reject that. So there's something funny about the openness. So there's a you can say a misguided openness, just or or that's not well reflected on. So that well, I'm I want everyone. Well, everyone is created in God's image, everyone deserves to be loved, but not but there are they're incompatible beliefs, and we have to choose, you know, there's ultimately there's goodness, good and evil are are simply irreconcilable, and we have to choose the good. And so that's that we shouldn't be afraid to do that, and that will lead to decisions that will lead us in one place to one place and away from another place.

Robert 20:08

Okay, are we beyond the age of miracles? Okay, so um, what do you think?

Fr. Ku 20:12

No, certainly not. So, as Aquinas says, and you can certainly see it, in the church, they're in certain ages, so in the beginning, there's a need for miracles, right? The apostles have just are just the church is just so radiant and alive and also suffering persecution. So you need miracles that and and that confirms the faith because people are just strengthened by miracles. But you do have, as you mentioned, Fatima, right? There are miracles, not only are they not only surrounding our lady, there are people have the gift of healing, Sister Bridge McKenna, for instance, who's in our our age. There are there it's they're less frequent because then the apostolic age, and uh more, yes, so so less frequent, but they they do happen and they strengthen your faith. And you sometimes also spiritually, because it's hard. So physical ones are are easier to document where you can see that the the natural order was was ignored and God worked through it. But spiritually, because we can't see that, there's there's still sometimes there will be a shocking, it's it's miraculous. And you say, well, maybe it's just well, maybe it's just God working through grace, which actually sounds very much like a miracle. Strangely, Aquinas would say grace is not miraculous because we're made, Adam and Eve were created in grace, and so the ordinary it's the ordinary way to be saved is is awesome. And so you say, but that's miraculous. Well, it feels like it, it's awesome, like a miracle, but technically it's not a miracle because we're supposed to be saved by grace. But to to give you an example, my father converted on his deathbed three days before he died. He he touched My mother, the my mother's ring crucifix, and said, Um, I love the Lord and the Lord loves me. And he had been Buddhist all his life and actually used to curse God, but not more not really so much for religious reasons, but more to afflict my poor mother. But anyway, so you know, some people are are unhappy, they they lash out, right? So, but when I was saying what oh, so he he was he was terminally ill. In fact, I came back early from I was studying in the California province, and I came back early because the doctor said he had three days to live. Well, he ended up living like six or eight more months. But he after so he was terminally ill, and then he brought got bronchitis, so he's like, obviously he's gonna die right now, but he managed to recover from bronchitis and remain terminally ill. You're like, how do you do that? But he had some kind of conversion. He said, like, where did my children come from? From nowhere. God gave them to me. So, but when I was my my older sister was pregnant, and so she couldn't, she was in Nebraska, couldn't fly back to be at his at the funeral. And so she could also couldn't, when he was dying, couldn't come and see him. So the when when we were saying, because we so we saw, even though it was shocking and amazing, we saw it in kind of steps where she didn't, she just heard it over the phone afterwards saying, Well, he said this, he said this. She couldn't bel she couldn't believe it. Like she not, I mean she didn't deny it, but she was it it wasn't the same person. She was like, How is that? So that's and this is the aspect of of miracles is and Aquinas notes this, it's marvelous, it's it's awesome, it's shocking because it's it's it blows up the system, right? And so in grace, it's uh it's uh uh it's um can be harder to say it's it's a miracle because I mean it all grace is seems like a miracle, but technically it's not. But so to your point, are there are there still miracle still miracles? Yes. So grace is always working, so technically not a miracle, but there are also these helps, these uh true, true miracles that happen here and there, and sometimes sometimes around Our Lady, those are awesome ones. But uh God will raise up a saint and the saint will be capable of miracles. Juan Macias feeding the poor after he died. I mean there are there are some awesome ones where also those are easier to document because it that that's one that's so interesting to me because it was over so it such a long period. It's not like there was just a healing. Well, uh Cardinal uh Newman had a healing, right? A woman was bleeding, bleeding to death, and then she asked me, Do you remember this? I don't remember all the details. And so that was one of the miracles. It just stopped stopped bleeding. Um Margaret of Costello Blindness, there was uh a case of blindness that was healed. So, and uh that person was at the house of study, so some Dominican friars have have met this person. But so no, there are certainly still miracles.

Robert 24:53

It's not well even in my life. I don't know if you'd agree with this, but the fact that we spent about three weeks together last summer in a very you know intimate way, as far as we had we slept in the same places, we walked you know the same distance. Uh maybe you got there before I did, and um that you're still speaking with me now. That's miraculous. Oh, that's that's proof of miracle. Let me ask you a few questions about last year. So we never really got to spend time after the Camino to you know, to before we did like a little, you know, what do you expect? But then you went off to Malta. Right. Right? And so we really didn't have time to discuss it. And we haven't discussed it since, really. Right.

Fr. Ku 25:26

And um That was an abrupt separation because we we just went in different directions.

Robert 25:31

And then Father Jerome and I spent maybe some time together, uh I mean maybe an hour speaking about his uh his Camino, and that's posted on these holy bones. So maybe just a few minutes about your perspective on last summer, and then I have three questions to conclude. So uh what what were the um you the takeaways, what maybe the three prominent takeaways from last summer for you?

Fr. Ku 25:56

Penance is good for your soul. So we s we suffered not terrifically, but I did get a shin splint. But it's hot. And so penance, uh to to challenge yourself, say no to yourself.

Robert 26:10

Well well, a few days it was really hot. Oh yeah, we had yeah, oh that 18 mile.

Fr. Ku 26:15

We oh yes, it was crazy. Oh, we had a well it was it was over right, we had over a hundred degree well and and you could feel it, boy, the sidewalk. You could have cooked an egg in that one city we were in. Oh my goodness.

Robert 26:26

No, that's true. And then at night it was hot. Oh yeah. In those Albergins.

Fr. Ku 26:30

So penance and and pilgrimages are are characterized by that often. That it's it's and some of them even aim at that, right? Okay, so that's one. You could say also the so one thing, an impression. You you see people from many nations, people from from all different backgrounds. It's a call to pray for the whole world. You you meet the whole world, you could say. You meet a hell's angel from Germany who's out there who knows why. Does he even know why? Well, he he wants to get out of his normal situation. You meet, we met, you know, Spanish people just walking along because they they walked, uh some of these people like probably just live there because I mean they just walked the last leg, was kind of they you know, they were not pulling any any carrying water or doing anything because they just they they're not going that far. Uh we met that interesting, was she Swedish? I forgot, or um Norwegian uh young lady was from Denmark. Okay, wasn't she Danish, could be, yeah, but but impressive, but also Baptist, but in her her life so uh su you know, going out, going to work in Africa and putting her life at risk, her safety, but but very shy about being explicit in her words about Christ. Very interesting. So that you could say Catholicity in the in the broad sense, the the whole world. So is it needs to be prayed for and and and we we should witness to them. So that's what penance, the the the need for witness. And then yeah, let's see. Did you enjoy it? I uh it's parts of it. So uh certain aspects, yes.

Robert 28:11

Yeah, yes. Well, there's also then as I Well, you're very physical, you've been a very good athlete for your whole life. You must have enjoyed the walk.

Fr. Ku 28:18

Uh it was it wasn't as challenging as I as I expected, or as as people told me to expect it. And Father Trump was.

Robert 28:24

I wouldn't think I wouldn't think that for you.

Fr. Ku 28:25

Father, and well, I did get the shin splint. Now I'm older. I'm I mean I'm 61 now, so what was that a year or two years ago? Was that six years ago? Yeah. So so um that was unexpected. But but the the what so the third would be the camaraderie just for for for ourselves, the three of us. Yeah, yeah. That was that I definitely enjoyed that. That was I was gonna say fun. But I mean there even the challenges, the fact that we we suffered them together, uh gives you something to talk about. We I mean we had we had plenty of laughs about the first in Calaruega. You remember this, the drunk guy, the drunk guy. So, and he's he's he's he's trying to speak English, he can't think of English, so I'm speaking some Spanish to him. And he's repeating himself and repeating himself. And the the the the restaurant managers are, you know, we're gonna put him out, but because they know him, he comes and must he so he's spending money, so they they they want the cu him to be their customer, but they also don't want him to chase clients out, customers out, but they also see that we're managing him, so they're they're kind of looking with suspicion and and and horror, but they're also seeing that we're managing him and that maybe it's okay, and so we're and so but though that we got a lot of jokes out of that. Also, the strange man who was working at the one hostel and then interrupted our mass and wanted to throw us out, and just the strange reaction of another pilgrim that saw us celebrating mass and and had some strange things to say. So that the to suffer we after that, we if you were alone, that would be different. But to to suffer together is a grace. So, so that that would be it. So, one so that would be it. So, penance is good for your soul. We need to pray for the whole world, and it's and being on the communal gives you exposure to the whole world. Uh you can say a microcosm or representatives, and then also to suffer together is is a joy. To live together, to be together with a purpose of growing closer to Jesus, and asking St. James intercession, asking for his protection. And I know you're praying for your your children, especially. That's why you ten ten communos is a lot. Um you lost your wife because she you for your her you're her accompanying you, she's still alive, but because she would get bed bugs and uh three out of four and she had she had she had enough of that. So uh I I I totally understand that. So uh, but yes, to to to live to to be together, to uh live, yeah, to be together and to suffer together is is a is a grace. So that's I say those could be three things.

Robert 30:56

Yeah, out of all ten, that was uh really grace-filled because we had mass every day and oftentimes at midnight. Right. Which all it kind of adds to it.

Fr. Ku 31:05

I don't I don't want to say, you know, no, no, no, dud because and the reason was because we were didn't have a place you can't celebrate conveniently in the middle of the day with all kinds of people walking around. You want to use a common space to do this. So then we would do this either extremely early in the morning or else at midnight. And so, right, that's an inconvenience because also you want to sleep and then you want to be rested because then you're gonna turn around and walk all day the following day. So it was a sacrifice, but there it did give a certain characteristic. There's something about the quiet and the the middle being in the middle of the night, nobody else up and uh saying your singing your praises to the to the Lord in the in the middle of the night or something.

Robert 31:49

Right, right. It was amazing. All right, so let me ask you uh actually two questions and then we'll conclude. Um Should pilgrims walk in hopes of miracles?

Fr. Ku 31:59

I I think yes. So not don't you don't get your hopes up so that you'll be crushed if you don't see a miracle, but we should be open to miracles and ask for miracles. We should ask. You know, now it's again you you could you can hurt yourself if you're if you if you're going to demand it or be get your you say well uh also some people try too hard, like they say, oh this was a miracle, and and and somebody with a more sober judgment would say that wasn't a miracle, but we'll let them say that, you know. So so you know, you have to find one here or there. You don't have to find one because God's ordinary disposition of things is awesome. So you don't have to have ever have to uh uh an authentic miracle. That's that's fine. But if you go to the mass, you do have one. But okay. So but I think we should hope for them. I think we should ask for them, and I think we should be open to them. And even if it's not an an actual authentic miracle, there can be awesome things that can happen through the the natural order. Sometimes you you you're not totally sure, but you're you you wonder, like in there are tons of stories like this, right? Where someone helped you, you were lost, and you could actually have died, whether frozen to death or died of of thirst, and then someone helped you, and you're looking around, it's like, where is that person? And there's no reason that that such a person should have been there, and they say, Was that an angel? Could have been, and that would have been outside. So you don't know. So sometimes you don't know. But even someone can send uh just an ordinary human and speak and say something to you, a word of encouragement or a word of correction, which you hear Almighty God speaking to that person. So that's not a miracle, but that's more like imperfect prophecy. Or if the person well, if the person is is in grace, it could be a straight up prophecy where you you hear something, God speaking to you. So so yes, so uh so miracles I would include in that genre of things to hope for. Be open to them, hope for them, and ask for them. Lord, we did for my sister who did who died of cancer. We prayed for a miracle. And I and we were and we should have, and and and and we should accept that we didn't get the one it we you know, maybe we got many blessings. How old was she? 48. Yeah. She had a couple young children, so that was that was what hurt all the more. But the the well, maybe it's miraculous that they are doing as well as they are, yeah, you know, the the children. So um yes, but no, so the answer to you the short answer, that was a long answer. The short answer is yes, we should hope for miracles.

Robert 34:28

All right, very good. Would you do the Camino again?

Fr. Ku 34:32

Well, I would, yes.

Robert 34:34

Many paths. Yes, no, no, I would say one of many.

Fr. Ku 34:37

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I I would do the same. The the path is less distinctive or less uh decisive for my decision. Okay. I would say, would I? Yes, I it's not like oh, I'll never do that again. But it it has a certain significance. I wanted to do it. Uh also you invited me several times, and then the the it opened up because I have a a busy life, God be praised. So many, a lot of demands. So what the fact that I had a chance during my sabbatical, uh that that I I I felt like the Lord is saying, yes, do this. I also was in a place where I thought I I similar to to even those who don't have an explicitly religious intention of the for the Camino, I I wanted to step outside of the normal comfort zone. And so you had that you can't you were having giving me these invitations, uh I think two or three years in a row, things came together. And uh you also just my desire is like, you know, this would be in a like a retreat, just uh an unused one because it's it's it's it's long and it's it's noisy, and you're you know, you're not like reading scripture sitting in the chapel, you're out you know, suffering in the heat. But but it's to do something to give time to the Lord and to and say, Lord, I'm suffering this, I'm doing this for you, St. James, pray for me that I that I'm I'm blessed in this way. So it so I would so so I would. I just the first one was really significant. Also, things came together. So I'm not like if I had an invitation to go this year, and actually there were there are a couple lay people who were gonna go, and I don't know if they were gonna go with Father Jerome, I don't know if they ended up going, but you know, I I I couldn't, this this there just it wouldn't make sense. The same uh yeah, the same, yeah. Things didn't line up the same way. But so I wouldn't certainly say no, but let's say I was I wouldn't be as eager. I I it's not off the table, so in that sense I would go, but it's not like I'm planning to because that was so awesome. I'm I'm just planning to go. There, I I yes, received blessings, I wanted to to do it, and one would be enough, but I'm not I'm not close to it. Yeah.

Robert 36:41

All right. So in the um planning stages, I'm supposed to go again this year. That's all that's unbelievable. So but to take my I've been promising my granddaughter, I said when you're 10, I'm gonna take you on the community.

Fr. Ku 36:51

That's why I brought you the backpack and the walking poles.

Robert 36:54

So um, but it's financially it's not really um super feasible, you know, because it's a it's expensive.

Fr. Ku 37:01

2,000 bucks, that's not nothing.

Robert 37:02

Yeah, right. So um so right now I'm giving it to the Lord. She is coming to Rhode Island, she lives in California, she's coming like um in a few weeks. Okay, and so it's it's being planned, but it's uh not according to my will, because like I have my own vision of the Camino. So it's it's much shorter and you know what I mean? Much more it's a it's uh it's a tame Camino. Yes, you know what I mean? Right. Um, which is probably what she needs, okay, and not what I need. Right. But even if I go for seven days or you know, seven to ten, um, it's still significant in in uh in the sense of my prayer life. Yes. And also to introduce my granddaughter to uh to pilgrimage pilgrimage. It might impact her for the for the rest of her life. You never know. You never know. You don't know how that's it. That's funny the other day someone, she could have an experience just if she's open, what St. James will will who know? Yeah, sure. The other day someone was saying, um, someone that is dear to me, you know, I was trying to explain that they were asking about marriage. What what what makes um for good parenting? And so it's not something I think about often because it's you know it's very experiential. So I've never distilled it, I've never sat down written written about it. And I was like, what well I'd say, first of all, you make sure that your child is brought up in the faith. And then uh from there, you know, time spent with the child, you know, educating the child, and lots more. But I said, you know, in my case, like um we tried to do that, and then you know, I walked a Camino for my children, and they go, Oh, I don't want to hear that. That has no impact on oh I was like, I don't know about that. Wow, what would you say to that?

Fr. Ku 38:36

I would say intercessory prayer is powerful. So as Augustine says, Does does God not know what we want? No, of course he knows what we want before we ask him, so we're not telling him something, but our desire and our praying disposes us to receive the gifts we we ask we ask for. But also, uh Aquinas has this objection that he he replies to in the Sumatheology, It's on Providence. You know, God's will is unchanging, right? Yes. So then our prayers, how can our prayers be effective? Because God's already knows what he's gonna do, he's not gonna change his will. That's our prayers are pointless. No, not if God's will, which is unchanging, is that some gifts should be given through these prayers. If God wills to give, this is amazing. God involves us in his ministry, he gives us the dignity of being real causes in the world. So it's not just pulling, it's not just an illusion. God's not just a puppet master pulling the strings, he gives us freedom, he makes us in his image so we can be knowers and lovers, we choose for genuinely. So if God wills that these gifts be given through your prayers and you don't pray, those gifts may not be given. Wow. So intercessory prayer is powerful. So if God wills it's to give uh spiritual gifts to your granddaughter through your going on the pilgrimage, or to give to your children spiritual gifts through your going on on the Camino, then you should go on the Camino. To say that it's ineffective is to say that our prayers are are are useless. And that's a that is a position. It's wrong. And Jesus, Jesus himself prayed in his human nature. So the church prays. I mean, if if if prayer is useless, we then Jesus isn't who he says he is in the whole the whole project. We look for something else. I mean, then you know, maybe we are just Adam sorely in the void. But if prayer is effective, it is it's it's pointless, it's it's mindless to say that the Camino is is useless. That is that's a a way to pray and to give time to the Lord and to intercede. So for for your children in this case. So that's what I would say is intercessory prayer is effective, it saves marriages, it saves children from their their waywardness, and so we should we should we we're commanded to pray and we should pray, and God works through our prayer. So so therefore you should go on pilgrimages and the communos will be close.

Robert 41:13

All right, thank you very much, Father. And of course, when thank you.