Season 3 Episode 2 - Identity, Patterns & The Truth About Feeling Empty

 This episode explores what happens when you build the life you thought you wanted… and still feel empty.

Lylie & I dive into identity, the pressure to follow the “safe” path, and how many people lose themselves trying to belong. They unpack how early experiences shape subconscious patterns, why therapy isn’t just for when things fall apart, and the responsibility that comes with holding space for others.

The conversation also challenges the rise of surface-level coaching, highlighting the importance of deep training, self-awareness, and ongoing personal work.

At its core, this episode is about coming back to yourself… and recognising that feeling lost isn’t failure, it’s often the starting point.

Connect with Lylie here :
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LinkedIn : http://linkedin.com/in/lyliefrost

Book a call with Lylie :  https://lyliefrost.com/have-a-chat

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode on the Fearless Femme podcast with Becky Jane Stevenson. And I have the most epic guest, Liley, who's on. I'm so excited to dig into this topic, especially because we just spent the last 10 minutes digging in. And I think it's such an important one, especially with how things are at the minute in the online space. So I ain't gonna waste time. I'm not gonna keep Lila here all night because that can happen. So do you want to introduce yourself, Liley? What you do? Um obviously I've said your name. So what you what you do in this space, who you work with?

SPEAKER_01 0:51

So I am a cognitive hypnotherapist. Um, and people are sometimes a little bit like, what does that mean? Hypnotherapist, cognitive hypnotherapist, when most people think hypnotherapists, what comes to mind for you when you think hypnotherapist?

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Well, uh I've worked with hypnotherapists and I know quite a few hypnotherapists. Um so years ago, it would have been the general understanding a lot of people have where they get people on stage running around like a chicken. Um that then kind of progressed to I can see how hypnotherapy would work for somebody who maybe wants to um quit an addiction to something like smoking or um like eating junk food or something, but I think it's only been the last couple of years that I've realized the depths of uh the the scope of what hypnotherapy can do.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

This is a thing for me, even for me personally, before I decided to train in hypnotherapy, I was scared of hypnotherapy. I used to think, what if I lose control? What if I start giving away my deepest, darkest secrets? And it just doesn't work like that. Um, and again, people think oh, waving a watch in front of your face, making you look like a chicken when every time you hear a doorbell. Um, so it's got a bit of a stigma attached to it in some places still. But again, most people, the first thing people go to when they think hypnotherapy is oh, stopping smoking, getting rid of phobias, losing weight, that kind of stuff, which yeah, it's absolutely brilliant for, but it's also brilliant at uh understanding yourself better. So the the kind of people that I work with are um basically people that have built the life. So they've followed the path what they were supposed to do, they've gone to uni, they've got the job, they've got the house, they've got the car, they've got the kids, they've done everything that they've got to where they thought they wanted to be, and then when they get there, they're wondering why they still feel empty. Um and most of the time that it's because they've been following the safe path, the expected path. Um and they've lost themselves on the way. They don't know who they are anymore. Um, and those are the kind of people that I really want to work with. I'm not interested in doing single sessions, getting rid of phobia, stuff like that. Yeah, I can do that, and that's brilliant, but that's not what lights me up. What actually lights me up is really getting into identity and being okay, so the reason why you're feeling empty is because you just don't know who you are anymore. Like you've spent spent so long not necessarily pretending to be somebody else, but hiding parts of you to belong to fit in that you've completely lost who you are and what's important to you, and that's what I work with people to do.

SPEAKER_03 3:50

I love that, and it is so true, isn't it? We um like we are similar on similar kind of wavelengths in terms of identity and not recognizing yourself anymore because you know, one of the turning points for me was like I had the house, I had the kids, I had the husband, and it was like, why aren't I feeling fulfilled? Like this is everything that I said I wanted or thought I wanted, but I just I didn't want it the way that it was, and I realized that I had allowed my entire universe to be built around these four walls. There was nothing, I was giving myself nothing outside of that. Um, and and that was I'd say getting into like 2019, so it's been a big part of my own journey as well as what I share and what I talk about on these. So, you know, this is what you've just been talking about with what is your bread and butter is is the same as mine. We just do it, we're doing it in different ways, and I you know, I love that. I I think um I think we we do, we have that human, human need to fit in. I think it's a it's a basic kind of instinct, isn't it, to fit in, to belong. Because we think about cavemen, we had to belong, to stay safe, to stay protected, um, and anything kind of outside of that, I think there is a almost like a primal instinct that kicks in, you know, that says don't stick your neck out, don't do things differently, stay within what's expected, you know, and all the rest of it. So I I think uh it's subtle as well.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

It's not necessarily it's not directly being said to you, you have to stay within your lane, you've got to do what's expected of you, but we just naturally grow up thinking that way. I um I grew up in quite a poor area, um, and I actually went the opposite way because nothing was expected of me. I remember being at school, and uh like a careers advisor was coming around with applications for college for people. Um and there's actually the main people that I'm still in contact with from school, we were all in the same class, we all went to the same college. They're the people that went to uni, one's a barrister, one's a teacher. Um, we've stayed in contact. But I remember being in this class, and this teacher said to me, Why are you going to college? Why don't you just get a job? And that that is what was expected of us, of people like me, of people who came from where I came from. And that sticks because most of the the protection patterns that we have that we we live our lives by were installed when we were kids, and you haven't got the capacity to think about those things and why those might happen. All you know is that I don't like this feeling, um and you push it away or you hide it, and I don't want to ever want to feel that again. And then anything that comes up that kind of triggers that just keeps added to the pile, um and it can it carries on affecting you as an adult, and it's only when you actually start doing this kind of personal development work and looking into the patterns and why you do what you do, and that you actually start questioning these things. A big part of my story as well was the fact that I was I was gay and I didn't know, like I grew up just all I knew up until the age of about 19 is that I felt different, and again, you get these subtle messages that who you are is not okay. Like I was a tomboy, I played football, I hung around with the lads, I had short hair, and I never got bullied and I never got um I never had people directly saying to me, You're not you're not right, you're not, that's not okay. But it's those, it's the subtle messages. Oh, girls don't have short hair, girls don't play football. So you then feel like you have to hide a part of yourself to belong to fit in, and that sticks, and it works back then because it keeps you safe. Because, like you say, you're not sticking your neck out, you're not putting your head above the parapet, but then you get a point in your life where you want to start moving on, you want to start doing better, and those things are still holding you back.

SPEAKER_03 8:18

Yeah, like well, first of all, like thank you for like being so open and sharing those little, you know, those small insights into how life was for you growing up. So, my question would be like, how uh what was the turning point for you where you because I I've read some of your content and we have we do have some similarities in terms of what job, what very interesting jobs that we've had and things that we've done. Like I I would really love to know like what was the turning point for you where it was like that, you know, there has to be a tipping point, there has to be something that occurs. So like for me was 2018. Um life was up until that point really, really chaotic. I mean, I didn't have the the greatest upbringing. Um so naturally, me creating a safe environment and having children, doing things differently was massively important for me. So looking back, I can see how the overwhelming responsibility of being a cycle breaker and doing things differently would have piled on. And and up until 2018, which was my tipping point, life was very, very chaotic. It was there was a lot of stuff going on. Um so by early 2018, that had all started settling down, there was less stress on my plate, I could breathe. But all of the stuff that wasn't getting dealt with for me on the inside, all kind of was like my brain was almost like, hello, this bitch has now got some space for this, let's throw it all out at once. Um, and I completely crashed and burned in a in a big way. But it was also, I don't want it to be this cliche of you have to, you know, sometimes you've got to break down to break through, but that was absolutely true for me. That's what it took to kind of open my eyes and stop being on the hamster wheel that I was on, yeah. And decide what is it that I wanted for me? What did I want outside of what I hold? So, like you you sound like you've done lots of very interesting things, lots of different roles.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

So I I want to hear what your typical moment so there's been a couple over quite I'd say over about 10 years this kind of happened.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

So I like I say I went to uni, it took me six years to pass my degree because I was just getting drunk constantly and just finding myself. Um but I still had that even though I kept failing and not getting the work done, I was determined there's no way I'm not passing this. It was like I'm gonna get that degree, come hella high water, and I did in the end. Um but then that so that was 2005. In between 2005 and 2008, I just bummed about, did all kinds of different things. My plan was I was gonna join the fire service, but where I was living at the time, they weren't recruiting. Um so I was like waiting and I was doing like agency jobs, and I had no confidence basically because of this kind of inner voice that said you're not good enough because of where you're from. I didn't have the confidence to go out and look at gradual graduate level jobs, and because it takes me so long to pass my degree as well, that kind of all added into it. Um and then I ended up like I moved to Cornwall, did a summer season down there. I went to live with my mate in Devon, I applied for the RAF. So I was doing all these things. I was kind of like search, I'm constantly searching for that next thing. And then I finally thought, look, I'm 28 now, I need to get a proper job. I need to sort my life out, basically. And I thought, I've got a degree, I need to do something proper, I'm gonna train to be a teacher. So basically, I started off getting like um a supervisor job. So I worked in a school as a cover supervisor, which for anyone that doesn't know what that is, it's basically like an internal supply teacher without any training. So you're like basically babysitting kids with no training. Um and I hated it, I absolutely hated it. And I remember having a chat with someone who said to me, Um, well, you've got to realise that what you're doing is not teaching. Like if you really want to be a teacher, you need to do the training and you'll learn then how to manage your classroom and stuff. And I thought, well, okay, I'll give it a go. So that's what I did. The school that I was working in said, Yeah, brilliant, we'll train you up. Um, because you could do I did this thing called the graduate teacher program. So yeah, I had a it wasn't a teaching degree that I had, but I could work in a school, it's like basic, like doing it on the job. So I was working in this school, trained to be a teacher, but they said we don't need any because my specialism was PE. Like we don't need any PE teachers, we haven't got a position. So once your training is done, you're gonna have to move on. I said absolutely fine. And then it took me like another two years to try and get a permanent look to try and get a longer term PE job. I was doing supply all over the place and volunteering, trying to like get my um I was interested in special educational needs, and I ended up volunteering in this SEM school. Um, and through that and having it on my CV, I got approached to for a PE job in a pupil referral unit. Wow. And this this was kind of the turning point. So I went into that pupil referral unit and pretty much like they'd never had a PE teacher before, so it's like setting up the PE department, setting up BTEC for the first time. Um, and then so I was there for 12 months. I will be honest, it was probably the most stressful job I've had in my life, but I loved it. Like the team that I work with were absolutely brilliant. And so after 12 months, they said to me, Right, okay, done really well. We've decided, yeah, we want a permanent PE teacher, but we can't just give you the job, we've got to put it out. Um, you have to apply for it. And I was like, Okay, absolutely fine. I thought, well, I've been doing it for a year, so it's a shoe-in, surely. Please tell me you didn't turn it down. Yeah, so then I applied for that job and didn't get it. Wow, and that my like my whole world collapsed because I've been craving stability for so long, like I'd not had a permanent job. Like ever I was just wanted this is in my mind, I was like, this is the answer. If I can get this permanent job, then I've made it kind of thing. Yeah, and then I didn't get it, and literally everything just fell apart. But the weirdest thing happened was that over those next seven days I started feeling like this massive weight had been lifted off my shoulders, and I started thinking like what's going on here? Like, why am I feeling this? What's the situation? And I realised I didn't actually want that job, I just wanted a job, I just wanted the stability, and I started questioning like, is this what I want to do? Like, I'd never really wanted to be a teacher. I just thought I need a proper job, I'm good at sport, this is what is the next kind of step. Um and it all kind of all around the same time, like I'd um this youth justice job came up, which is basically what I've been doing for the last 13 years before I started hypnotherapy. Um, I'd never heard of youth justice teams before, I didn't know what they did, but I'd met someone a few weeks before that worked in youth justice. So I phoned him up and was like, Oh, what's going on? And he basically coached me through it, and I got the job, and that's what I've been doing for the last 13 years. But then 2019, I did uh an NLP course. Yeah, so I enjoyed youth justice, but still was like, I don't know if this is what I want to be doing for the rest of my life, still kind of searching what is what's going on, what's the next thing. So I did this NLP course, and that changed everything. Like I suddenly realized like I I have so much more control over my life than I thought I did. Like it opened, like I learned about Ericksonian hypnosis and all this amazing stuff, and I was like, wow, this is what I'm gonna do. And I went all guns blazing. I'm I'm like, I'm starting a business, I'm gonna be a coach, and I'd done a five-day training. Like, you're never gonna be a coach on a five out there, oh okay, but you're never gonna be a good coach on a five-day training. So it all kind of I was looking for like the next, still looking for that next thing. I don't know enough. I don't know enough. This has been one of my kind of limiting beliefs. Don't know enough, still need more. Um and then so it didn't work out, COVID hit, forgot all about it, and then it got to like 2022. My mum was so I lost my mum in 22, like mum was really ill, like my family was imploding, like I was just really thinking, like, what the hell am I doing? Like, I got to the point where I was literally like, I feel nothing, I feel numb, I feel empty, like what am I doing in my life? And then I found this course. Oh, so I'd found this course. The so Quest Um Cognitive Hypnotherapy School is who I trained with, and I found them just after I did that original NLP course. But the course that they do, you get the NLP qualification and the hypnotherapy in one, and I was like, I can't pay again to do the qualification that I've just done. So it's one of those things like every couple of years or every like year, I'd look at this course and go, I really want to do that, but it's not the right time. And it was never the right time. And then it got to like say about 2022, 2023, maybe. And this course, like I basically what happened, I drove to work and I was just in like driving to work, crying my eyes out, just in absolute flood to tears, thinking, What is this all my life is gonna be? Like I just felt empty. Um, and I thought I can't go into work like this. So I drive I live, I um worked right near the Thames. So I drove to the edge of the Thames in my car and I was sitting there staring out, and I was just like, What on earth is going on? I thought, I can't deal with this, I need some help. And I actually, for the first time in my life, reached out for some therapy, and it wasn't it wasn't hypnotherapy, it was just talking therapy. Um but I was always one of those people that's like, I don't need therapy, what do I need therapy for? I got to that point, I was like, I can't do this on my own, like I don't understand what's happening. And I had I only had a few sessions, I think I had six sessions I was booked in for, and I think I only like on the fifth session, she was like, I don't think you need anymore. And I was like, Neither do I, but during that training, it training therapy, um it just helped me like get clarity of all this stuff that was swirling around in my head. Yeah, this course just popped back in, and it was so clear that this is what I need to do. Like at the time, my partner and I were thinking about moving away. Um, but I thought I was in my head, I was like, well, if we do move away, then I'm gonna be even further away from this course because it was at Regarch University in London. So I thought, well, now's as good a time as any, I'm just gonna do it, and I'm so glad I did because it's changed everything for me.

SPEAKER_03 19:28

What a journey you've been on though. Like I'm listening to all that and I'm thinking, you know, the the universe is gonna intervene at some point, you know. Didn't have a teacher job at the universe saying, no, this is not for you, this is all character development, you know, testing it, and and like and I'm listening, and you know, even down to that, you know, this is what I'm good at, this is what I should be doing, get a job, and and you know, and we do when you were saying as we're growing up, it's that sort of stuff, and we don't realise that not everybody's life is like ours, like the same for me when people have asked me in the past that have maybe learnt snippets of my childhood because it's not like I go dumping that everywhere, and you know, people don't have uh exclusive access to that. Um it's exactly true. Like I have dealt with it in a and I will still probably be processing parts of it throughout the rest of my life, and and I'm I'm okay with that. Um I have been asked before, like, how is it that you're so open with things? And it comes back to what you were saying, like those subtle messages in childhood and you know, where we grew up, where we come from, is because I didn't realize that everybody's life wasn't like mine. I thought everybody had home lives like mine. So, you know, it's that whole metaphor, isn't it? If you spend long enough in a room that stinks like shit, you're gonna stop noticing it that it stinks. It's only when you move out of that that you realize, you know, how much of an impact it's having. But like even down to the you know, having the talking therapy, I mean, I'm not surprised. Um, but sometimes it's just having that safe space for somebody to hold what is coming out of your mouth in a way that gives you that space to figure it out for yourself as well. Because like I'm a big believer, yeah. Like if we're speaking, like I'm a big believer that when we're speaking out loud, but also listening to ourselves and our own voice, then things start to click. And if you haven't got anywhere to hold that, uh of course, you're not gonna be able to get that kind of clarity about you know, where do I need to be going next? And you know, I think as much as what you shared, and and like I could hear the Frustration of all of those years, and well, you know, and what am I supposed to be doing? That confusion and just not knowing where you're heading. But on the flip side of that, I think there's so many people that don't give themselves to step outside of that either. That think, right, I'm going to college, I'm going to do like the amount of people that I've heard say, you know, they go to college, then they go to uni, they qualify as a lawyer, and they absolutely hate it, but they think because they've invested in that, they're going to stay with it.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

And they'll stay with it until they retire, but feel absolutely depleted and unfulfilled by it. So, you know, I think it took by the sounds of it and what's coming across for me is that you know, it takes so much courage to say to keep moving, to keep being in almost like being in pursuit in a good way, being in pursuit of where your bread and butter is. I think that's really important. Um, but it's interesting you were mentioning therapy because we're talking about that before we started the podcast. Because I I did share that I'd just been signed off um with mine, um, like refresher, more like refresher therapy. Um, and I think for me it was I think we can get really good at coasting well. Um so there's like a driving reference there. Like if you're constantly coasting, you are gonna damage a clutch. So if we want to, I mean, I don't I don't even drive, so I don't know where that comes from. But it is true, we get so good, and it would it was an I was in an in-person day on Friday, and my diagnosis, some of you are regular listeners will know my diagnosis is OCD. Um, and he basically said, aren't we all a little bit that way too? And I'm like, not close to not close to not even close to like you know, intrusive thoughts and images, fear fears, ideas, whatever, they are part of the course for anybody's kind of central thinking system. Um, it's just for somebody like me, they're very much at the forefront and they can pop up at any time, like the unwanted house guest. Um but you know, there's this big debate about if you can't cure it, but then you can't cure thoughts. So, you know, there's a little bit of an argument going on there. Um, other people talk about how you can um that it's chronic and for many people. Like I'm really fortunate that mine is like, even though the topic that mine chooses to focus on can be quite heavy, it doesn't prevent me from living life well. Um and you know, instead of just getting through, I'm able to live side by side with it. For other people, it can be really chronic. I used to be a peer facilitator for an OCD charity for a number of years before doing what I do now. Um, you know, so it everybody's experience is unique to them. But there is this coasting that can happen. So it's like thinking, I'll go to the gym and I'm gonna lose some weight and I'm gonna build muscle. And then when you've built the muscle and you've lost the weight, you think, oh, I'm gonna stop now because I've got to my goal. Well, and you you can't like what's gonna happen when you stop going? You're gonna pile all the weight back on, and your muscles are not gonna be muscles anymore. Like it's something that you like, it's a practice, it's a daily art within your life. And because I'd burnt out last year, um the OCD, yeah, like I was right right pickings for the OCD to to pop its ugly head back up again. So I got myself back into therapy, and I think I was saying to you before, like that would be really difficult for me to be open with because it'd be like, what will people think? I'm not be I'm not stable, or you know, I'm on a bit of a throat loop, or or whatever if I need therapy. And we we got onto the subject about you know how important it is to, if we're holding space for people, and I think that's a really big topic at the minute, um, especially on socials, about the space that we're holding for other people and making sure that we were able to hold that by regulating ourselves, by having the therapy, by constantly allowing yourself to kind of not just grow, but to to keep going through those levels and layers yourself. Because the more you can do that, the the the better. I'm not gonna say the more you can hold, because it's not it's not the goal, I don't think, to keep trying to increase that capacity in terms of how many people you can serve, but I think in terms of capacity in the way that you can hold people when it comes to their stuff.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

Definitely. I mean a big realisation for me. I used to be the kind of person that would say, I don't need therapy, what do I need therapy for? I'm absolutely fine. Like I've got an I I wouldn't identify that I've ever had any issues with my mental health, but that doesn't mean therapy is not going to be beneficial. And kind of when I went on this journey, so I've I my cognitive hypnotherapy training was 18 months in total because I went straight on to a master practitioner course afterwards. So obviously we were practicing on each other, so we were learning so much about each other and ourselves, but I was still like yeah, this is great, but I don't really need anything extra. But I I think sometimes we just need our own bullshit reflective back at us. Like we are I'm all about patterns and protection patterns. Like we've all got protection patterns that we live by, and those patterns don't necessarily need to be challenged, but you need to be aware of those patterns and how they affect you, and especially if you're a therapist, how those patterns are potentially going to show up in the therapy that you're the space that you're doing, like that you're holding for your clients. Um and I kind of was thinking about it, and I was like, right, okay, would I rather go and see a therapist that had never had therapy in their life? Or would I rather see a therapist that's been through therapy multiple times themselves? And I was like, B, absolutely, like, because you know, like we are all fellow strugglers, no one's perfect, we've all got our own internal baggage and shit going on, um, and it's gonna rear its head at certain times, and at those times there is no shame in getting some support to deal with those things because for me it makes me a better therapist.

SPEAKER_03 29:07

Absolutely, and I think as well, when when we're in service of what we do and we're we're helping people with their identity, and we're really helping with them with that deep work, you know, there is like we care about this work, we care about the people that come to us, you know, whether it's through hypnotherapy or conversations or you know, in whatever capacity that's going to look like. Like, we care about the people we work with. Absolutely. It's not just caring about how they leave when they finish their work with you, it's rather version of them that's coming in there and and kind of bearing their soul and being really raw and being really open, and they're they're kind of trust, they're trusting you with some of their you know deepest stuff. And I just think we we have to work, and I I think that's why I'd taken a step back last year as well, because I knew there was stuff going on with me that I needed to be able that I needed to work on, because there was no way that I was gonna hold space to the the level that I know I do and can. There's no way that there was space enough for that. And it like it got me thinking last night. I put a a post out about would would I have felt safe with someone like me the way that I was feeling last year. And I would like honestly, I would not, I would not have felt safe and I wouldn't have been able to trust that, you know. So I think there's some there's a lot of I talk about responsibility, I think there's a lot of responsibility, but there's also a lot of accountability to to keep working on your own stuff, to keep, you know, so that we can serve in that way and we can hold it. There is no way we can sit with someone in their debts without it affecting us in some way. So I think therapy, even in that sense, when we're holding, you know, I suspect for you there'll be people that have have shared trusted you enough to share some really deep stuff, and there's no way that you can leave a session and not be impacted in some way by that. So I think going back to the five-week L, what was it, the five-day NLP course of people then suddenly go out and start coaching? Like I would have like there was a whole topic that went online. Oh gosh. I want to say 2021 when I first was in this space, and I was supporting other people as a like someone with lived experience through through OCD. So that was how I started. That's how I started on the online space. Um I remember being called out because I was being asked for certificates and accreditations and things like that, and I'm like, I've never started myself as a therapist, like I am a peer, like somebody with lived experience. Exactly. Um so back then, you know, looking at all the little courses that I could do on Udemy and this, that, and the other, and over, I'd say over the last five years, you know, working with working with Dez, working with other people, meeting new people, being in different rooms, and just really seeing the depth of this work that it goes beyond just getting a certificate. It goes beyond, you know, taking a course of five days and saying, right, I'm a coach now, and I think it that I think that can be really dangerous because it is a really unregulated space as well.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Yeah, but no, I'm it was the same with me. Like let's say I did that five-day course, um, and I had so like like I say, it lit fire under me. Like I was so excited. I thought I can I could do this, I've learned these techniques, I can help people. And that and the techniques that I've learned that I learnt back then are the same kind of techniques that I use now. But the difference is the training that I've been through is much more comprehensive, it's much more about uh seeing uh the person who is sitting in front of you as an individual person, and like we're all we all think differently, everybody thinks differently. That's a massive part of my work. Um is uh recognising that you could have five people come through the door suffering with like significant anxiety, every single one of those people's anxiety, how they create it, how they experience it, is going to be completely different. And on a five-day uh course, you're not equipped to deal with all of those different people and understand, okay, well, this hasn't worked with this one, so what do I do next? Whereas the course that I've just done is more of like a cognitive hypnosis, a quest cognitive hypotherapy is more of a framework and looking at the person of an individual, and then any other therapy that works. So we use NLP, we use um EFT, um transactional analysis, like uh any kind of therapy that works can be used within this framework. Um and so when that person comes in front of you and you've tried something and that hasn't worked, then you've got multiple places to go to try other things.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

So it's just absolutely no way on a five-day course I'd have felt confident enough to do that.

SPEAKER_03 34:52

I mean it's tailoring it to eat to the nuance of each person, that's the the difficulties that they're they're having. Um it's interesting because my therapist was saying I was accessing different types of therapies without realizing it. So even in just my own tools that I have in my toolbox, you know, some of them uh are cognitive-based or uh diffusion, there's some acting there. The you know, there's the ERP, which is a daily practice for me. Anyway, um, that's almost like an automatic thing for me now. You know, so there's so many different things, and what works for one is not gonna work for another, even down to the way that you hold that space, the way that you speak to them in terms of how they're responding. And that's interesting because it's just ADHD in it is in play um with a reel that I I caught earlier. Like you're gonna giggle at this side quest for a minute. So I saw a reel with Henry Cavill, you know, the Witcher Gerald on Facebook yesterday, and now my entire feed and reels is just been Henry Cavill all friggin' day. Um so the husband just made me a copper with my Henry Cavill mug. I I really aren't kidding. Um we have a Henry Cavill. Um but whilst I was scrolling and appreciating the the fine male form earlier, um a reel come up about how AI is people are trying to use replace therapy with AI, and the some of the points that they were making is exactly what you were just talking about that I think is really important as well, um, is the nuance of people, but also in terms of the training that the therapist has had and the experience to create that framework where you said you you can tailor the approach depending on you know how they're experiencing how they're responding to things. AI can't do that. AI has no human ability to have that kind of judgment on where someone's at and what they're gonna respond well to, and to be able to listen to the differences, the language, the body language shifts, the tone changes.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

Um and I think especially um ChatGPT as well, it just agrees with everything you say. So the bit wouldn't challenge if you I mean I know it's kind of set up to the if uh people are having suicidal thoughts and things like that, it should uh do certain things, but uh a lot of the time it just kind of goes along with what you're saying, and there's no kind of challenge there, and yeah, so it's it's quite it's it's dangerous. I can understand how AI can help people kind of organise their thoughts sometimes, but again, yeah, if you've got someone that's suffering from psychosis, and AI that it's just so dangerous, I think.

SPEAKER_03 38:08

It is, and I I think I I love how open this chat has been about you know having therapy, whether that's to you know to make sure that we're we're stable stable and regulated and able to hold the people that we work with and the people that are in our lives. I think that is important, but also being open about you know the therapy isn't this big thing where you're in therapy and you can't be open about that and say, you know, look at me, I'm in therapy, that must mean I'm a a nut job or a head case or whatever. And I think it's that there is still such a stigma attached to it when actually, you know, if we're gonna be support, there's so many people out there that have experienced challenges with their mental health. We all have it, we all have mental health. The differences is whether it's doing well or whether it's you know, we need that extra support. Um, there's so many people with lived experience that want to go out into the world and help others. And I think it is important whether we're in the capacity in the space of helping people with their identity, helping them when they feel lost, when they've got patterns that are kind of keeping them safe but stuck, and helping them to recognize it. I think it is important that we we are constantly making sure that we're in the optimal position to be able to hold them in that and to help them stay with the things they're moving through. Um but yeah, it's such it's such a big, it's such a big topic.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

And do you know what? I'm I am such an advocate for not having to hit rock bottom to consider go then go then consider going and having therapy. Like every single person in this world would benefit from having therapy, and this is coming from someone that used to say, Oh, I don't need therapy, why would I need therapy? But I know more about it now, and now I know more about these protection patterns that are installed in us when we're children, and then they end up running your whole life. Like we all have them without fail, everybody has got these protection patterns, and to be able to recognize those and bring that kind of unconscious to the consciousness that the I heard um a statistic the other day that 95% of our behaviour is unconscious, 95%. Wow, and I feel it raises some questions about free will, doesn't it? It really does like do we actually have any control over our behaviour at all? Or is it all literally like unconscious?

SPEAKER_03 40:48

It makes me a bit worried if that number was lower, it and like more percent was actually conscious, uh, you know, what life would look like. That'd be really, really interesting, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_01 40:58

But this is the thing like a a lot of therapies are target the cognitive side of things, like CBT is all about thoughts and understanding those thoughts and changing the behaviour related to those thoughts. But yeah, 95% of your behaviour is unconscious, so therapies like that aren't gonna work on it.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

No, and and you know what that my experience more recently um was high-intensity CBT, um, specifically for um for OCD, but not so much in the CBT sense, and he did tailor, um so but he was also recognizing things that I was doing that didn't need him to kind of lead, if that makes sense. So he was just kind of reflecting back the things that I am actually doing that are all working towards um, you know, the the the goal of of not getting rid of it, because that was another question I had the other day was can you actually get rid of it? Like, can you actually be cured? And I'm like, the goal is to live well for anyone, whether they have an OCD or not. The goal is to live well, no matter how you may be challenged through life, is your ability to work through that to be supported and to live well. Um so like the CBT side for me was it was helpful to kind of talk about how things had cropped up and how I'd got into another loop. Um, but because I understood it anyway, like I under understand this is sort of inside out by this point. Um, so for me, a lot of it was looking at the patterns, looking at how camouflaged it had got, interestingly, because you as you said earlier, we get so good at recognising our own patterns and our own stuff. So for me, it had gone down so many layers that I couldn't, it was getting very difficult to spot it and say, ah, there it is. So for me, it was the the other part of the therapy that comes with it is the exposure response prevention, which is um that is something that is practiced. Um so for me with mine, it's very internal. So I have for now um like scripts, so almost like worst case scenario or the consequences of whatever flavor I want um impart that on you all and dump that. But um I have three or four scripts that I read 10-15 times a day so that the meaning is like literally neutral to them. Um so you know, for some early in the in their therapy stages, if you like, CBT can be helpful in helping them understand the thoughts, but I think they also do, I don't think it's

SPEAKER_01 44:00

enough I don't think don't get me wrong is enough uh yeah I'm not knocking CBT I'm not knocking any type of therapy like all all therapies most therapies um will work for certain people but where the the quest is different is okay CBT works for this person to a point then what okay yeah um EFT will work for this person to a point but then it's not working then what whereas because Quest is more of a framework it's like okay well we've got all these different modalities and therapies in our toolbox okay that's not work for this person what's that about how can I use it let's try something else exactly and you know that's a perfect way to kind of start wrapping up um everything that we've talked about you know whether whether it's therapy whether it's your hypnotherapy practice whether it's with coaching is developing those tools so that everyone you're getting to work with you are not treating them the exact same taking through them through the exact same process because somewhat two people might have the same challenges that look the same to the outside but the way that functions for them the way that it's showing up the drivers behind it are going to be so different and might require two different ways two different angles and it's the same what you said earlier and I think that's really perfect to finish on as well is um you know we are exceptionally capable self-aware intelligent we know our own stuff we know our own pattern we know why we do stuff doesn't always mean that we uh don't do those things um and need calling out on our own and our and our on our own crap you know so for me I think it's also recognizing that all behaviour has a positive intention it might not look like it to the outside but for that person it's meeting a need and it's about okay finding out how do we make meet that need in a more positive way.

SPEAKER_03 46:22

Yeah or in a safer way because that that was something else that was the only part of therapy for me that I I could not get on board with was um it was suggested to me to think about uh almost like personifying DOCD and turning them into a a character um which was interesting yeah and I was like well you know I can see how that would work for some people but for me it just it that wouldn't work. Um so it was then when I came off the session again I was doing my scrolling on scrolly scroll on Facebook while I was having my lunch and and somebody had released a a book um living with difficulties with with anxiety and anxiety disorders and it had been portrayed in quite a a negative way and the imagery of the book was a a beast um but we see similar things in like people who are using creativity to personify as well but I think it's important like what you've just said like I don't see OCD as that way.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

Yes it's it can be horrific like I I will not like maybe one day I will share some of the very wacky ways that it showed up for me that I can laugh about now but at the time was completely stomach turning um but I still don't see it as a like back then I saw it as a really negative monstrous thing that I shouldn't be thinking but now I'm just like do you know what it's this is the result of a a brain that has quite a high capacity that wants to say stay safe that wants to keep the people she cares about safe so is overfunctioning on the responsibility and all it's doing is creating me scenarios that may or may not happen that I would need to find a solution for so how how could I how could I turn that into some beastly thing that is the point though isn't it like we were saying that's the for me the client is the expert in themselves so but some therapists will go will push that and be like yeah but you need to do this you need to turn like you need to turn them into a person but yours you're quite clearly saying well that doesn't work for me so then we don't push that we look at what does work for you and do something different.

SPEAKER_03 48:47

Yeah and it's fostering that sense of self-agency for them is is giving that agency back because when you go through the door of therapy when you've been really struggling like I say a lot of people are often at rock bottom by the time they reach out for that you know they're coming in that room and they're gonna feel really raw and they're gonna feel really depleted really frightened not sure what's going to happen you know and one of the powerful things that we can do beyond helping someone to feel safe and fostering that sense of trust is also helping them to develop that sense of self-agency to say actually this is not I don't see it that way and to feel comfortable enough to challenge a therapist as well because that's how you're going to get the most out of it whether that be coaching whether that be you know identity work you know it in so many different areas is just helping whoever it is that is choosing to work with you is being open to them challenging you and saying actually this doesn't that I I don't agree with that or could we try it this way I think there's no better way to to build that level of trust and to to be open to not just being called out to stuff but to growing definitely epic I've loved that I could talk forever on this I could talk forever on this topic um but thank you so much for coming on Liley um I am yeah I just was very jealous of seeing you all at Funnelcraft last week but while you were all at Funnelcraft I was the other end of the country and I was up in Newcastle so well so I will be aiming to get to get to another one um and I guess I will probably see you in the summer in a few months. Definitely okay lovely thank you so much for being on um I'll be dropping some details in the podcast link so you can all go check out Liley's work reach out to her if anything has um I always get shudders when I say that really resonates but if anything really has connected if anything has really connected or landed for you this evening anything that Liley has talked about please do get in contact with her and I will be putting all the links in the episode details. So thank you all for listening in and I will speak to you all on the next episode