From Farmland to Wetlands: Doug & Dawn Armey’s Conservation Legacy

As we kick off Season 3 of The Lake Doctor Podcast, Suzie Light and Dr. Nate Bosch sit down with Doug and Dawn Armey to celebrate their remarkable journey into wetland restoration. What began with a simple wood duck nesting box on a mailbox led to partnering with Scott Fetters, Private Lands Biologist with the US Fish and Wildlife Service, and NRCS to convert marginal cropland into six beautiful, functional wetlands on their property.

Doug and Dawn share how these wetlands support abundant wildlife — from wood ducks and geese to Blanding’s turtles — while providing flood storage, nutrient filtration, and a peaceful refuge for their family and grandchildren. They discuss the long-term commitment of conservation easements, managing invasives like Phragmites and poison hemlock, using prescribed burns and water control structures, and the joy of passing on a love for nature to the next generation.

Their story shows how everyday landowners can turn challenging land into lasting ecological treasures that benefit water quality, wildlife, and future stewards. A perfect story of patience, partnership, and legacy.

Guest bio: Doug and Dawn Armey are Warsaw natives with deep roots in Kosciusko County. After meeting at a now defunct dance hall, the Armeys married and quickly found a shared passion for conservation. Rooted in the idea of giving more than he takes from nature, Doug worked with Scott Fetters to restore bird habitat on their property. An avid hunter, Doug trains his own bird dogs, a talent he shared with his son, Ross.

Learn more about the Lilly Center's work at https://lakes.grace.edu/.

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Transcript

Intro For Season Three

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to season three of the Lake Doctor Podcast. I'm Susie Light.

SPEAKER_00 0:04

And I'm Dr. Nate Bosch.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

And here we are on a new set for season three.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Beautiful. And our very first episode is Doug and Don Army, their local wetland enthusiasts.

SPEAKER_02 0:15

And you're going to learn in today's episode how one question led to the development of six wetlands. The doctor is in.

Marriage Milestone And Outdoor Roots

SPEAKER_01 0:58

30 years of marriage.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

30 years today.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

You guys are such babies. 30 years. Congratulations. And and welcome to the Lake Doctor Podcast. So, Doug and Dawn, you both are just embedded in nature. Doug, what started your love for nature? Especially, I hear you're a good hunter.

SPEAKER_03 1:23

Well, thanks. I don't know who you heard that from. But thank you. Uh well, just growing up as a kid, that's where I felt comfortable. We had a creek that ran behind our house, and uh that's where I spent a lot of time.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Did you grow up in northern Indiana? Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

Warsaw. I haven't lived more than about five miles from where I was born. I'm 62 years old now. So yeah, it's Warsaw's my community. But uh uh yeah, I've just always always been comfortable outside. Never really been comfortable with big crowds. But when I get in the get out in the woods and in the creek, that's where I calm down and I feel the most comfortable. So what would you call a crowd of geese? We call them flocks, but you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

As a chicken girl, I should have known that. Yeah. And and what do you hunt?

SPEAKER_03 2:17

Primarily waterfowl. Um I was a goose hunting guide for 25 years, and I met Dawn, and that was actually our first date. Uh, I had clients come in the next next day. I'd met her at a line dancing club. She she came with I heard there's a story behind that, Dawn.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Diamonds and Denim. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

That's like the name of the club.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

That's what it was called.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

Yeah, it's not around anymore. No, it's not around.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

It was the old R D building right there off of 30. And my sister and her boyfriend went and said, Come, and I said, Okay. And then Doug went with his good friend at the time, and um, that's where we met. And we tried to dance. This is not good.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

Yeah, she's not that great a dancer.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

Oh, yeah, that's not what I heard.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Or it's not like a knockout scene. Yeah, you might have heard right. He tried to twirl me and he clothesline me and I landed on the floor, but I still married him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

And then how does this relate to the goose hunting?

SPEAKER_03 3:22

Well, I asked her, I told her I had clients come in the next day, told her uh, you know, just small talk, and asked her if she'd like to scout a field that I had to scout uh before they showed up.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Scouting a field pickup line. Yeah. Works every time.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

Well, it worked this time. No, I was fortunate, very fortunate to

The First Date Goose Scout

SPEAKER_03 3:45

find Dawn because she tolerate didn't tolerate that, she was just into that, you know, and it was like peas and carrots. But uh just kind of a side note to that first date. We uh we um were scouting this field and we came across this washout. And I have looked for arrowheads my entire life while I'm in the field. And I said, Boy, this would be a nice area to find arrowheads in this washout. And she said, You mean those old stone ones? And I said, Yeah. And we took two steps, literally two steps. You mean like this one? And she reaches down and picks up an arrowhead out of the out of the dirt.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Now ask Doug how many he's found since then.

SPEAKER_03 4:35

I've never found one. And I purposely go out just to look for arrowheads in some of the most pristine areas that they should be, you know, and I've still never found one. So yeah, I knew it was I had to marry her. I had to marry her. Couldn't wait.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

That is so funny.

SPEAKER_03 4:54

Yeah, but no, that's how our first date went.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

So after you scouted the field, then you brought clients in, were you with them when that happened?

SPEAKER_01 5:04

I would help bring the clients in. They would hunt, but I would bring them in and drop them off. And I also helped make them dinner or lunch or whatever they needed. So it was kind of like the package deal. You get Doug to hunt, and I think you had about a hundred percent every time you went out.

SPEAKER_03 5:22

Yeah, we never we had a hundred percent guaranteed money back if you weren't uh if you didn't have the opportunity, if we didn't present the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

So someone's just a bad shot. We can't do anything about that.

SPEAKER_03 5:35

Yeah. But um, yeah, we never had to give anybody their money back. So but that's how yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

So it evolved that you started hunting and then you got into some other aspects of nature.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Right. Yeah, I uh I'd bought some property, it was about 160 acres. Um and I'd always been into waterfowling, like we said, and I had a wood duck box, uh, nesting box on my mailbox out by the road and uh on the post. And a fellow by the name of Scott Fetters drove by, just randomly drove

One Wood Duck Box Changes Everything

SPEAKER_03 6:15

by and saw that wood duck nesting box on the mailbox. And uh he he told me, he said, I thought to myself, he said, that's somebody that'd like to build a wetland right there. And he stopped back, uh, drove back the driveway and knocked on my door and said, Would you his first words would would you like to build a wetland? And I said, I sure would. And uh we've been like brothers ever since.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

We know Scott Fetters, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Yeah, we've had him on the podcast, I think, in season one. We talked a lot with him about wetlands. He's with U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, so definitely a wetland expert here. He sure is in Indiana.

SPEAKER_03 6:56

He sure is, and never forgets a name. That's what makes him, I think, partly successful. The a good part of his success is that he never forgets a name. And uh that helps, you know, just build relationships, good relationships with people.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

And he's built six wetlands for us so far. So I don't know if Doug ever wants to do more, but right now we have six. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

So everything that has a wetland on it that's been created on the property was row cropped at one time.

unknown 7:27

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

But it was marginal uh farm ground. It wasn't high production farm ground.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

Explain that.

SPEAKER_03 7:33

What is what is marginal compared to high um you know, you've got high yield uh farm ground that's good flat, well-drained um farm ground, and then you've got marginal ground that is maybe uh lower or has low spots in it, and you'll see a maybe an orange riser in the middle of it, field tile. And those are the the fields that the NRCS and and uh USDA, those are the type of fields that they're looking for for wetland restoration, not high yield, but but marginal farm ground that may flood one out of five years and has to be turned into the flood insurance programs.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

It helps take those types of acres out of the flood insurance programs and puts it back to where it was, you know, historically before we came in and and drained, you know, those spots often you'll see as well, maybe in the springtime, when a lot of other, at least in northern Indiana here, major cash crops being corn and soybeans, where those will be planted, and you'll start to see the the little uh plants coming up, but then there's a low part of of that field, and there's nothing coming up there because it was too wet. So either the planter didn't go through, or the planter maybe did go through, but the seed just rotted in the ground or fungus got it or something because of how wet it was. So those year after year um starts to get labeled as marginal by the by the producer. So this is coming up with another better use for those areas, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

Right. So the areas that you had that were had been cropped, you've turned into wetlands. Is that a lengthy process? Is that a laborous process? How do you do that?

SPEAKER_03 9:29

Yeah, uh, it can be from start to finish. Um, you know, uh a lot of times the ground has to be what they call ranked um to see if it qualifies for some of the programs that are available to put it back to uh wetlands restoration. Uh uh WRP used to be the name of it. Now it's WRE, I believe.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

And from

How Marginal Ground Becomes Wetland

SPEAKER_00 9:55

start to finish wetland reserve programs, yes, restoration. Okay, wetland restoration. Yes, okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

And um, it's just an easement um that the uh US USDA works with uh the landowners to provide funds that will put the ground back to where it used to be before it was uh drained. But um, like I say, it has to go through a ranking process to see if it's you know, if it qualifies. Then if it does, um uh that's where Scott comes in and puts the landowner in touch with the NRCS office and USDA.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

NRCF. Sorry, I'm gonna keep explaining some of these acronyms for our listeners and viewers. So Dawn would be a good one for the Natural Resource Conservation Service.

SPEAKER_03 10:49

Yes, because she actually works for that office.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

I work for the Soil and Water another acronym that people and water conservation district.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

I worked for them.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Which is in the same office as NRCS and Scott Fetter's U.S. Fish and Wildlife. We are also across the hall from the FSA. So we work with all of the CR and that is FSA is um farmer farm service agency, I think, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

And then you were about to say another acronym after that.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Oh, there are so many. And I it there's just so many. It all basically what it boils down to is whatever you want to do to bring conservation to your world or to your life, um, that's what these people can do for you. They teach you how to bring conservation to your property, um, and they help you financially so you can do it. Um, so the sky is the limit for them. They do so many different things. They even go as far as beehives, um, bat houses. There's just everyone thinks it's just farming. It's not just farming.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yeah, I know. Even for my wife and I, we have a little hobby farm. We were just talking about it before we started recording with some sheep and an alpaca. And uh, we've worked with uh NRCS um locally. So they even work with hobby farms like for some conservation practices that we can even implement on our little two-acre farm with how do we rotate amongst pastures, what sorts of things do we want to plant, how do we have uh more natural parasite control to keep our animals safe and healthy? So lots of good uh services that those agencies can help with.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Yes, very it's a very it's actually very cool. Um, everyone thinks it's just for farmers and field crops, and it is not just that. So yeah, it's really interesting. Like I said, the sky is the limit. I believe they have over a hundred different um things that you can get um dollars for. So, but there is, like Doug said, a ranking system, and there is a process you have to go through, and it can take some time, but if you have the patience, then they have the ability to help you.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

So, what sorts of things on your property then would have helped that ranking system? Tell us a little bit about kind of what's the context of those six wetlands that you have. I I would imagine that they're low areas. We've already talked about marginal ground, so there's probably a muck or a peep soil where historically it was a wetland. It went to agriculture and you guys are kind of bringing it back. But tell us uh a little bit kind of what those spaces look like on your property.

SPEAKER_03 13:34

Well, first of all, it had a crop history, which means it had been row cropped,

Easements And The Forever Commitment

SPEAKER_03 13:40

and uh it was marginal, it it met the marginal criteria that they were looking for.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Um and the vegetation, yeah, the right vegetation.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

Yep. And uh it just had a lot of good things going for it. Uh another thing that really uh helped was the fact that Scott Fetters had found and identified Blandings turtles um in that area, which really raised the the uh qualification score on it.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

They're endangered in Indiana. So yeah. So it was a really cool find. Um I actually saw one crawling across the front our front yard. It was the coolest thing ever. Um, he wasn't very big, he or she, I'm not sure, but um we left, you know, we looked at him. I think I might have even taken a picture, and then um uh and then we just left them go. But I mean, it was really a cool thing to see. As you should let them go. Yeah, we didn't touch it. We just looked at it, but it was really cool. I believe our kids were, oh gosh, I think Ross remembers doing it too. I feel he he was seven, so Raina would have been five. Um, and Ross was like, Mom, look at its neck because it's very bright yellow on the neck. They're really cool, they're really cool.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Yeah, we've talked about those turtles, I think, on maybe at least two, maybe three previous episodes that we've got.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Season two episodes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

You mentioned that you put an easement on the property that your wetlands explain what that is, and is that like a forever thing?

SPEAKER_03 15:25

It is a forever thing. Um it's it's not don't don't be confused uh with with an easement and thinking utility easement. Yeah, like a utility easement or thinking that you sold your property to someone and now you don't have control of it anymore. All it is is uh an an easement that you agree not to develop, build a house on, plant for row cropping for uh uh to make money off of. You can still put uh food plots out, you know, for for hunting opportunity or for just attracting wildlife. So a wildlife food food plot, not a human food plot. Right. You won't harvest it. You can put it out, but uh you you just won't harvest it.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

You leave it for the but you could harvest the animals that are there, you sure can.

SPEAKER_03 16:23

And you you uh don't have to ask anybody. Uh it's it's still it's your property. All you did was sold an easement that says I won't uh run a plow through it anymore for production.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

And that's in perpetuity forever. Yes. So if you sold your area that the wetlands is on, the next owner would have to agree that that easement.

SPEAKER_03 16:49

Yes, and it transfers to the new owner the same way. Yeah. So that is a huge legacy.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

Yeah. Um that is really Yeah, you you need to be committed.

SPEAKER_03 16:58

I mean, it's not just uh something that you you know you want to jump into and then all of a sudden change your mind. But um I've never, I don't think Don has either. We've never once thought, man, this was a big mistake. You know?

SPEAKER_01 17:15

The cool thing is that it's forever. It's not just for a little bit. So you can put in a pollinator planning, think it's beautiful for three years, and go, oh, I don't want that anymore. This is permanent, so it does take a lot of work. Doug spends a lot of time on invasives, he spends a lot of time on um making sure that the fire lanes are mowed. He takes a lot of time on this property as well as our son Ross. Um, and so um it does take time, but the the benefits that you get from it, the beauty that you get, the um people that come by and say, Oh, I could sit on your porch every day, just to hear those peeper frogs in the morning or just to see the sun come up, that in itself is really awesome. And Doug is that's one of the things Doug enjoys, I think, the most is just going out into the quiet. You don't wear your your AirPods, you don't take your phone, which is kind of frustrating because I think sometimes, oh my gosh, something's wrong with him. Where's he at? But um it's it's a time where you can just go and just hear nature and just calm yourself. It's like the coolest way to stop your anxiety if you have a bad day. Um, and it's so beautiful just to see like a goose or a wood duck come in and land on the water. Um, like I said, at night hearing the bullfrogs. Um, it's just so rewarding and to know that that's gonna stay like that forever. There is nothing that is gonna change that and what it how it is evolving. It will be nature that changes it, not human. So it's really cool to have that legacy and be able to pass it on to our children and their children. And it's so cool to see our grandchildren. Right now, Ross and his wife Bethany do not have any children. We hope someday maybe they will. Um, but Raina and Jacob Templin, they have three and they are so fun. This year we got to see Colson um go into the wetland and stomp for the first time. He just turned 18 stomp. Like, oh, creek stomp. Oh, this boy was like, wait a minute, I have a video. Wait a minute, what is this? This is water, and he had mud boots on. And then he goes, Wait, what can I do here? And he just started stomping in the mud. It was earlier this spring. I think he was probably he was probably 15, 16 months, so he just started really walking and he loved it. And he got to go into the wetland with Ross and clean out one of the um, one of the tiles to make sure that the it was flowing correctly from one wetland to the other. And he was just intrigued by all of that. He loves to go and look at um all of the beers and the he can say duck now and frog, and it's so cute. And the little girls, um Joe, Jolie and Millie, they are so sweet. They go and pick all of the wildflowers and we talk about it, and we go on UTV rides, and he Doug does a great job with the kids telling them about oh, that's a turkey bath. Um, and so wait, what's a turkey bath?

SPEAKER_03 20:23

It's just a an impression in the in the sand, usually you'll see them there.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

Okay, so it's not water, it's sand.

SPEAKER_03 20:30

No, it's sand, yeah. And they just get in there and they just ruffle their feathers in that sand, and we call it a turkey bath.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

And and the girls think it's so funny. And um, but the stuff that Doug teaches them and tells them, I mean, I help too, but it's fun to listen to Doug. Um, and someday um they'll be able to go hunting with him as well, and with Ross. Ross is a big avid um hunter as well, and he is um, he has a dog named Boone. I think that you've met Boone before, and he's this feisty, fun little um, he's

Stewardship Values And Giving Back

SPEAKER_01 21:05

a poodle pointer, P-U-D-L-E pointer. Um, he looks like a German short hair but with long hair. Um oftentimes Doug says he looks like the Grinch's dog.

SPEAKER_03 21:17

Well, that came from taking him to places like Rule King and stuff like that at Christmas time. The kids would always come up and say he looks like the Grinch dog.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:28

Because he's got a lot of feathering.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Yeah, so but it's so fun. Um, Ross um will be able to take all of his nieces and nephews and his children too, but this all is going to go to them.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

This is reminding me all the way at the beginning and beginning of the Bible, thinking of stewardship, right? So all the way back in Genesis, the very first human beings, Adam and Eve, God puts them in the garden, and these themes are coming out from what you guys are saying, right? The words are translated in. English, God told them to cultivate and keep. So they're managing, and you guys talked about managing, right? You got to keep these inflows, outflows open, fire lanes, you got to keep invasive species out. So there's the cultivation and and keeping it, protecting it, right? There's this long-term easement, which is going to protect that, but then there's also enjoyment. I think like how cool would it have been to sort of walk through the Garden of Eden with God Himself. And and you guys are getting a little taste of that with your family and being able to rest out there. And you talk about um a cure for anxiety and just being able to see the sunrise and and hear the sounds out there.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Do you notice really cool all wrapped up in love?

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

Your love for the outdoors, your love for your children, your love for the future of the land through the legacy you've created. And as you as they were talking, I was thinking that stewardship, it's stewardship at its finest.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

Yeah. And you and you you know, we we talked about uh I was a goose hunting guide for for quite a while, and and sometimes hunters get a bad rap of being people that just want to take, take, take. But actually, most hunters are probably some of the most uh some of the best stewards of the ground that you'll ever find. That was the reason for a lot of the wetlands is that we took a lot of geese, we took a lot of waterfowl, but we also wanted to put back the waterfowl that we took. And that was my goal was to put more back than what I had taken. I'm glad you explained that. Well, I mean, that's it's the truth. And uh it's it's not just my story, that's the story of a lot of waterfowlers and hunters in general, is that they're just somebody that you know wants to take from the environment, and that's not the case with most.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

And and it's healthier for the flock. Yeah. The population of the flock, the herd.

SPEAKER_03 24:08

Right, right. And yeah. So you know, we had all this wetland, we developed all this ground, and we really rarely ever waterfowl hunted back there. We just used it for a resting area. And then we would follow them out to the cornfields. But um, yeah. Um we've had geese nest on the property with what they call neck collars um and leg bands. And I mean, those are like the holy grail to a lot of waterfowlers as a is a bird band, you know, and tell them what a bird band is.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Some people may not know what that is.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

Well, it's just it's a band that uh that the uh US Fish and Wildlife Service places on a goose when they're small or when they're molting in the summertime and they can't fly. They round them up, they band them, they put the location they were banded. Um if it was a young goose, uh they'll put, you know, that it was its first year, so they know how old that bird is. And when the waterfowler harvests that goose, they turn the number in that's on that goose band. They don't have to turn the band in, just the number. And they'll get a certificate back that tells how old that goose was, where it was banded. Um, and then that also helps them determine where that bird migrated from.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

And you had a unique experience with a migrated bird.

SPEAKER_03 25:39

Uh Ross, our son Ross did. We were hunting on the Tippecanoe River. Um, and he was fortunate enough to shoot what they call a a uh Jack Minor band. And he Jack Minor was from Kingsville, Ontario, he still is. His grandson Kirk runs it now. But um Jack was actually the first person to band a goose, and by his banding program, he was able to determine that geese uh migrated from Canada down into the United States and even into Mexico by those bands being harvested and the waterfowlers he probably not calling him up at the time because this was back in the th if I'm not mistaken, back in the 30s. But they would contact Jack Minor and say, Hey, I shot one of your birds clear down in Arkansas, or I shot one of your birds in Mexico. And then he was able to determine, you know, that they fly south and then they fly back north and they fly back south. And you know, we didn't know that back in the back in the day. That it was the same birds that were flying back and forth. Yeah, they may have they may have had Canada geese, but they didn't know that they came from north and then went back south.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

But the coolest part about the band though, which you um you should say is what's on the band. Every year they change.

SPEAKER_03 27:12

Yeah, they're not on a uh a federal band, but Jack Minor put a Bible verse on his band, and his bands are about this long, where a federal band is only about this long.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

So uh it for our listeners, uh the the federal band is about a half inch?

SPEAKER_03 27:30

Um, yeah, three-quarters of an inch to a half inch. And the Jack Meyer band is.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

And he puts a Bible verse in there.

SPEAKER_03 27:37

Yeah, he sure does, and he called them uh uh his disciples, the geese, his disciples, because those bands back in the 30s, that was kind of considered the market days where hunters would go out and just destroy as many geese as they could. And when I say destroy, they didn't they weren't doing it to destroy anything, they were doing it to eat, and they were doing it to survive. But there was there was no limits. They were just, you know, sh shooting, shooting, shooting. And some of these guys were pretty rough, and you know, maybe not always on the right side of the law. But what it was doing was putting Bible verses in the hands of those guys that we all need it, but those guys could probably maybe uh need it a little more than others, even. But um, it would put these Bible verses in their hands, they'd read them and hopefully get something out of that. That's really cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Well, what the banding makes me think of as a scientist is when we're looking at a population, whether it's fish or whether it's plants or whether it's geese, uh, we need a way to estimate the population size, right? And when it's something that doesn't move, like a plant, we can do a transect, which is a long line, and we measure along that line, or we can do a quadrat, which is a certain area, and we count within that area, and then we kind of scale that up. But for mobile organisms like a goose, those things don't work. You have to have something that you either clip or put on that or inject into that, so that then you can track it over time. And then based on percentages of marked versus unmarked, it's called mark recapture is the technique for mobile organisms. Based on that proportion of marked versus unmarked, you can start to over time estimate populations. And you can see are the populations rebounding, are they starting to fall to too low of levels?

SPEAKER_03 29:38

And so then managers like US Fish and Wildlife Service then know kind of how how things are going with that population, and better, maybe better set uh limits for the next year or following year.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

So I'd love to get back into some of the details of how you care for these

Prairie Burns And Invasive Control

SPEAKER_00 29:55

wetland areas. Okay. So you mentioned several things like firebreaks first. Um, let's talk a little bit about fire breaks. So we've talked about wetlands on this podcast. Our listeners and viewers should remember wetlands are sponges and kidneys, right? They soak up water, they help filter and make water cleaner, so they're really important. But they take some work. And uh let's talk about some of those management things. So one of them is firebreak. So so that indicates that you burn that wetland from time to time.

SPEAKER_03 30:30

Right. Um, not necessarily well, yeah, some of the wetlands will burn, but that's more uh the upland areas, but the upland areas go right along with the the wetlands. But if you were to take an aerial picture of our farm, it looks like maybe we've just got a bunch of trails, you know, mowed around the property, but they're not. If you notice uh through an aerial, it's the perimeter of every field is mowed. And yeah, we try to keep that what we call a a green line around all the fields with prairie grasses in them. Um and we keep a green line so we can alternate those fields and mow every other year, maybe every third year, just to keep the brushy uh species of of uh plants out of them. Because we're we're we're just look not just looking for, but mainly looking for upland habitat, prairie grasses like uh um what we call turkey foot or big blue stem, little blue stem, switchgrass, Indian grass, just things like that. But you have to burn those off every once in a while just to keep the brushy uh autumn olive and things like that out of it.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

And that's what it would have happened historically here in northern Indiana and throughout uh the Midwestern United States is you would have fire moving through naturally from time to time, pushing back those what we call woody, right? Sort of brush and tree species, and keeping those more herbaceous species like the like the native grasses. So these fire breaks then that you mow them to keep them short in stature, the plant there, and also then you have green grass. So when you're burning an area, it's gonna burn that whole plot. And then when it gets up to that fire break, that that low mowed green grass, the fire is gonna extinguish itself. And so you don't have to worry about burning all the other parts of your property or maybe your neighbor's property.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

So yeah, and your trees, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 32:36

And it is kind of uh a kind of an ego thing, I guess. But with me, it's how straight can you keep your burn lines, you know?

SPEAKER_00 32:45

The fire probably doesn't really care.

SPEAKER_03 32:47

No, no, it doesn't, it doesn't care, but you're forcing it to stop right here, and that's that's kind of where ego comes in. Scott and I'll argue back and forth, got a little bit far out into your green line on that one, didn't you? Yeah, well.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Well, what about invasive species? You mentioned that before too. Um, and that's a constant battle when we're looking at caring for the environment because we have these species that have moved in from elsewhere, often they're exotic species. Um, and and they just kind of start to take over some of those native beneficial species. So, what do you do to fight against some of those invasive species on your property?

SPEAKER_03 33:28

Well, the burning helps a lot of that, but Donald, tell me if I pronounce it wrong. But multiflower rose is that yeah, I always call it multiflower row or something like that. Multiflora rows. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, um, right now we're working on that through the um actually through the woodland areas. Um, we're eliminating multiflower rows. Um, and also um poison hemlock. Oh, we have really been hitting that hard this year. Yeah, and that's I mean, it it's everywhere. Um, but we don't want it on our property, so that's where we're starting.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

We I feel like I keep giving these plugs for earlier podcasts during this episode, but we had Dugan Julian on here, who's one of our former students here at Grace, just like your son Ross, and um he now does invasive species removal for his profession, and he brought in some uh poison hemlock here onto our set. Yeah, and uh so we were able to look at it for those who were viewing the podcast and talk about it. A pretty nasty plant.

SPEAKER_03 34:30

It is, and if you have ditches or water uh waterways or or wetlands, it you're gonna have poison hemlock usually. And uh, so yeah. Um, I've never had a bad encounter with it, but uh I mean you can speak about it, but it's pretty I was told or I read that it's 100 times more toxic than poison ivy. And if you get it in your eyes, it can cause blindness. Yeah, that's been told.

SPEAKER_02 35:02

Although I think Julian one Julian was the person who said a weed is a plant just growing where you don't want it. Although I think poison hemlock is an evil weed. Yeah, everywhere I see it. Yeah, and in the springtime, you can see a lot of it because it's flowering with this really pretty white flower. Right. And the the people who don't know think it's beautiful Queen Nan's lace.

SPEAKER_03 35:27

It can be, it can look a lot alike.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

It's got those purple, kind of almost paint-like splotches all along the stem that that tell it apart. Yeah. So one more um management uh technique that you were mentioning before is um where the water flows into your wetland and where it flows out of your wetlands. And so uh we as a Lily Center staff got to visit your wetlands here just uh a few weeks back, and uh we saw that and uh it was amazing how you can control the flow rate going through your wetland with these

Water Control Structures And Clean Water

SPEAKER_00 36:05

control structures. So tell us a little bit about those. Do you have to clean them out? How do how do those work?

SPEAKER_03 36:10

Yeah, that that's something Scott Fetter's uh taught us. He's real good about moving water around. And uh if you um have a wetland that has too much water in it, and another wetland that's maybe starving for for uh water, you can open control boxes, what we call control boxes. It's got an inlet and an outlet, and it's got boards in it that you can raise and lower uh by by adding more boards or taking more boards, and the water will only stay at the level of the top board. Um, and it's also nice for if you wanted to ch uh plant Japanese mullet or or plants that the waterfowl really like to eat. You can lower the water in the spring, plant, let it grow all all summer, and then uh put more boards back in so it floods that that area. So yeah, it's just nice to be able to manipulate the water and and uh control the heights of the water a little bit. And in the spring, when it uh maybe floods more than what you really want in a wetland, you can move it around or take it all the way to the ditch. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

That's something that we're particularly interested in here at the Lily Center as we launch this new Lake RX program where we want to um see solutions to some of the problems that we have in in our lakes and our streams and wetlands, we see as one of those uh great solutions. Love the permanence idea that you guys have have talked about today, but also the management possibilities, right? And so as you allow more water to come in or less water to come in, uh taking samples above and below, you can um you can maximize the amount of nutrients and sediments that would be pulled out of the water with a wetland. Right. And uh really help that wetland. You know, we've been talking about the benefits of the wetlands for waterfowl plants, for aesthetics, for being able to enjoy it as people, but those wetlands also perform a very practical service to the rest of the landscape, which here in northern Indiana includes a lot of lakes and streams. And uh, and that is these wetlands will will help clean up that water. And with those control structures, you can maximize that that important function of wetlands. So we're really excited to to see more of the types of wetlands you guys have on your property, but around other uh rivers and lakes throughout our county and throughout our state and the whole Midwest. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

So the question I have is does a wetlands have to be adjacent to a river or a lake?

SPEAKER_03 39:04

No. I would say no. No, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

And the reason I say that too is because a lot of times you'll find low spot or wetland areas in the middle of um a field. And farmers have an opportunity to put that into a program to kind of set aside, I can't farm this section. I'd really like to get some funding for this. And it's not necessarily near a ditch, it could be in the middle of their field. Um, and those are equally important as, say, the ones that we have, because um, you're gonna have to help me with this. Um, how much water can a wetland store? Like, what is how does that all work and help purify that water?

SPEAKER_00 39:44

Yeah, so it's gonna depend wetland to wetland, the plant vegetation, also um, what is the what's the bottom sediment look like? Is it more clay where it where it can sort of it's sealed up versus if it's more sand and gravel at the bottom, that it starts to, but but I think you're exactly right, Don, that what we would call an isolated wetland, we don't say that that's worth less. Um, if if the management goal is a lake, that isolated wetland could pull in water down into the groundwater and avoid some of the surface runoff that could be bringing nutrients or sediments into a stream or a lake and instead just allow it to stay right there in that isolated wetland and just start to slowly soak into the groundwater there. Um, we can build or have wetlands adjacent to lakes and streams as well, which can more directly pull that water and filter it and soak it up before it gets to the river or the lake. But yeah, groundwater is a really important feature of the hydrology in the Midwestern United States as well. We've done some research on that in the past. And um, these wetlands can help what we call recharge our aquifers and uh and allow that water table to uh to stay uh higher, which is important for agriculture, important for people's wells, important for lakes and streams in the area. Um, and wetlands can be a great rather than allowing the water to run off really quickly and get into a big river and head down to the Mississippi or out to the Great Lakes, if instead we can allow that water on site to soak in on site, it can help recharge that groundwater, which could be really beneficial. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

There's a really cool um thing that they're doing now where if you have marginal farmground, um, you can do kind of the same thing that Doug was talking about with the different levels. They will actually let it flood in the winter and the fall, and then they'll drain it in the spring so they can plant it. But what it does is it allows um wildlife to come in and have a place to stay for the winter. So it's kind of a cool concept they're coming up with. They're trying to be more creative with farmers and people in the area. We're here, you can still farm this property, but let's turn this into a nature preserve like during the winter months. And it again, it's beneficial in many ways, just like Nate said. It's beneficial to for the aquifer, but it's beneficial for the wildlife, and it's beneficial for your um ag people as well.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Yeah, and that I think it's uh like drainage tile management or something is what that practice is called. The other thing that it does for nutrients when we're thinking about lakes and streams is when you have that stagnant now body of water, because you've closed off the drain so that it starts to fill up and stay saturated with water during those non-growing months, you've created low oxygen conditions, which then allows for uh it's kind of a nerdy word, but denitrification, which is loss of nitrogen. And so rather than that nitrogen uh running off into a lake or stream and causing extra algae or extra weeds to grow in a lake or stream, instead we uh allow that nitrogen to uh to be removed uh through denitrification because we're sort of storing

Wetlands Versus Ponds And Getting Help

SPEAKER_00 43:15

back that water during that time. So yeah, wildlife, but also some uh some impacts downstream too that it can have.

SPEAKER_03 43:22

Yeah, I I and I'd like to make it clear too that if if there's people out there that are thinking about using some of these programs like WRE, WRP, uh whatever, um they're not in the they're not trying to create a farm pond for you. A farm pond and a wetland's two totally different things. Uh, we're not trying to build a a farm pond that you can go out and fish in and and catch, you know, a a mess of bluegills and come back to the house. Um most wetlands, most good wetlands are only six inches to maybe three foot deep. And yeah, so I I've had a lot of people ask me over the years, you know, I've been thinking about putting a pond out there. You think they'd help me with that? And you know, my answer is usually, well, that's usually not what we're really looking for.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

You know, and the reason for that is with that shallower um depth that you'll have in in those wetlands, fish can't survive over the winter very long. Right. In our area here of northern Indiana, about the minimum pond depth you'd want to overwinter fish would be 12 feet, but even better to be over 15 feet, particularly harsh winters. And so when you're talking about a wetland that's only three feet deep, there's going to be ice cover over that and then that water below that is going to be very little oxygen. And so the fish won't survive over the wintertime.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

But the reptiles do. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 44:55

Reptiles do and the dabbling ducks love it. You know they can tip up and reach that bottom that's only six inches deep or maybe a foot deep. And that's you know they're like duck factories. Duck factories.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

Not in competition with maple leaf different types of ducks. Yeah. So Dawn, if somebody wanted more information, like if if there's a farmer that's listening and says oh you know I might be interested in in creating that temporary wetlands on my farm in a lowland or or I might be interested in exploring more of how to create a wetlands do they go to the soil and water where you work or is there some other place to go?

SPEAKER_01 45:37

Yeah they can come to the soil and water they can reach out to Chad Shodder is his name. He works for NRCS. He's a great place to start Toshina in our office Toshina Lar Manifold will also help um go out, check out um your place, look at your soils and just help you um meet up with Chad so that you can look into these programs that they do have available.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

Now we learned earlier on a podcast that the soil kind of tells you what kind of plants will grow on it. And in your wetlands you're you're removing native your invasive species. What kind of native species are coming up in your area I think Doug's new project is kind of fun.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

He's doing some swamp rose. We're actually growing it around in little pots around our house till it gets large enough to replant out by there. But they're really cool.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

I stole the seeds from Center Lake I think it might have been one of your projects but in the fall I stole the seed pot he harvested we actually we do that uh most falls here at the Lily Center because we have all native plants in our landscaping around the Lily Center and so we'll have um opportunities for people to come and collect seeds to then bring them home to their own yeah it's not easy. No you got to get it at just the right time and then you've got to plant it in the right there.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

So we have about I don't know 24 plants that I'm like oh they're getting bigger that's fine it's been a little cool this summer of course already but just in the last few days I've seen that it's grown up quite a bit so I'm really excited about him getting those transplanted back there. But there are so many different types of usually in a in a wetland area it naturally grows. You don't have to put anything there. But the reason why he's putting something back there is because he did get rid of some poison hemlock and wanted to make sure that we put something really cool there. Hopefully it will grow really well.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

Yeah because just in the absence of something you know when you get rid of something what's most likely to move in probably an invasive species. So if instead you replace it with something good to kind of hold that space. That's what he was thinking.

SPEAKER_03 47:48

The other two invasives that I mentioned the multiflower rose and the poison hemlock those aren't typically right down by the water's edge but um the the thing that we're we're trying to get rid of now is um phragmites um phragmites that's really taken over and they can just they can travel windborne they can travel from one end of a ditch to another and that's what we're that phragmites is terrible right now.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

And a lot of people think oh they're just cattails but they're not cattails are you know a lot different yeah I don't know if our listeners could hear but while you were just talking about phragmites our spring peepers which we have here in the studio just started making their noise as as if to uh to say thank you for taking care of those phragmites because because yeah those are invasive species that are not helpful and our viewers and listeners the best examples of seeing phragmites often along highways where you're going and you see kind of low wet areas and you have these these reed like plants that are you know 10 feet tall or taller usually with kind of a feathery sort of top on them that's the that's the phragmites and they've they've really caused a lot of problems in wetlands.

SPEAKER_03 49:07

They sure have in ours too yeah and it's not real easy to get rid of but we're working on it. Okay. You know and that's what I've learned through Dawn's office is that you know you just you just you just have to stay with it. Don't try to get it all done in a week. You know just stay with it try to stay ahead of it. So yeah there's there's work involved it's not just you know uh build it and forget it.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

There's maintenance with Doug though that's part of his healing of his like just slowing down because when you um take care of those invasives and you make your place beautiful in the way you want it that just gives you such a peace and such a it just is like a healing it's like gardening only out in the wet in the wetlands. And I feel like when he does go out there although his tractor gets stuck often that's not very healing. It creates stress. But just knowing he can go out there and just see all of the animals that are moving. I think that's one of his most favorite things to do is load all of the green kids and us up into our UTV and then just show them what's out there. Just show them how cool it is and how pretty and I know that it's working because Millie who's five and a half she will go to her um grandma's house um um grandma Jane is her name and she will tell grandma Jane all about what she saw on their ride and she will tell them about the milkweed and how silky it is and grandma Jane will go where did she learn that and they're like from her Mimi and Poppy. So we know that we're spreading the good word to our to the next generation and it's really cool to watch their eyes just open up and see all the beauty that they have around them because they farm. So they get to see the farm and the the beef cattle and and they get to go into the combine but then when they come to our house it's a whole different world for them too so I feel like they are the luckiest kids on the earth right now because they get agriculture and outdoors and animals but then they come to us and get to see the wildlife and the the the nature out there as well so um they're learning their trees now both girls are Colson's a little tiny but they're learning all about their trees and they can identify a few they're identifying some birds and it's so cool to see the bird feeder and all of the cool birds that come in they're learning about their ducks and the geese. So it's just been really cool that Doug has been able to educate and teach that next generation not just his two children and not just um about nature but also harvesting animals and teaching them how to hunt the land and take care of the property and take care of the the creatures that God has given us. He's just done an amazing job with our family.

SPEAKER_02 52:01

I think they're lucky to have you too I would say there we are all blessed we are by the wonderful work that you're doing on your wetlands and teaching the next generation about being good stewards of the land.

Thanks And Next Time

SPEAKER_02 52:16

So Dawn and Doug, thank you so much for being here today and sharing your wetlands journey with us it was a pleasure thank you for having us yeah we really appreciate you being here today. So I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Lake Doctor podcast and join us next time when the doctor is in