Men, confronting Spirituality and Faith, featuring Bishop Steve Moreo

What does it mean to be a spiritual man in today’s world — one rooted in faith, vulnerability, and purpose?

In this episode of Mxnzplain, Bishop Steve Moreo, Anglican Bishop of Johannesburg, speaks candidly about masculinity, mentorship, and the deep inner life men often neglect.
He challenges cultural myths of toughness, invites men to rediscover grace, and reminds us that real strength begins with honesty and community. 

Listen now to a conversation about faith that is raw, redemptive, and deeply human. 

#Mxnzplain #BishopSteveMoreo #MensSpirituality #AfricanFaith #Masculinity #Podcast

Mxnzplain | A space for men to be. Follow @mxnzplain on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok and Facebook.

Transcript

Introduction — Setting the Stage

SPEAKER_01 0:05

This is Men's Play. My name is Lebu Khan Mouanyani.

SPEAKER_03 0:09

I'm Kabilo Mutakani and the two of us decided to begin this journey of just creating spaces for men to reflect on what it means to be a man in the 21st century. Our task is really to journey with men, listen to different stories, but to create an environment where we can all just learn and grow with each other. It's a journey.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Yep. So if you're interested in men, men's plaining about their spirituality, their traumas, and all things important about being a man in the 21st century, this is the place for you to come to.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

Main Spain is for me, for you, it's all of us. So join in and be part of our journey. Welcome to Main's Plain. I am Kabelo Mutzakani, and today I am with I guess my spiritual leader, mentor. Um, I don't even dare to say friend, um, because we've always had a very weird relationship where I've always been very comfortable um and able to speak my mind without any judgment. Um and and he's always had this ability to just hold space in the most remarkable ways. And so today on our men's brain platform, we have that day Bishop Steve Musimanechape as our guest. And yeah, and our conversation today is really about men and spirituality. It is what does it mean to be a man in the 21st century? Um, and and how do we practice our spirituality? Is it important or is it something that is useless that we should not practice anymore? Um, so yeah.

Bishop Moreo’s Story & Calling

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Well, um uh brother Cabelo, thank you for for inviting me. Uh it's it's long overdue. I remember we promised each other that uh this is what we'll do. I don't know whether or what and then invite me. But you know, we're here today. Yeah. I I I I I looked at the all the questions you uh you send me and um and I've been asking myself, actually, what what do we want to achieve with this? Yeah, and I thought maybe it's just time I come about about how to navigate life uh in this season. Yeah, yeah. And I'm looking forward to that, and yeah, and I'll try and be yeah, as uh open as I can, yeah, and be vulnerable as well.

SPEAKER_03 2:38

Yeah, that that that's what the space is about. It's about vulnerability and just a space for men to just be. Um Tatumureo, you, if I'm not mistaken, you have served as a priest in in the Anglican church specifically uh for more than 40 years. Um and I think the last 13 years of your life you served as as the bishop. Um but the story does not start with uh Steve Musima Nachapu Mureo being this bishop, it starts somewhere. Um you you start as a young boy somewhere, um, and and and that's what I would like you to just maybe let's start there.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Yeah. Uh whenever Christian, I always say that um I was born in a very small town called Sanizov in the northwest, um 66 years ago. Um I was born in a family of 13 kids, and as you can imagine, there's quite a lot of us. Um so my dad um worked, but he was struggling together with my mom to raise us up. Maybe just briefly to to share um what what happened, it was in February um 1972. I I passed on at six. Grade eight. Grade eight. So I passed grade eight very well, and I'll I had a choice or I should just sit at home and blame what is happening around us. And I decided then to go into this small town called Sanizov. I went into a hotel, I looked for a job, but the guy said, who was a manager then, said, I'm going to take you to high school. And and the rest is history. I went to high school in Itususing, and after that I felt God calling me to ministry. I went to Grandstown, came back, I was ordained priest, and I've served in the church for the past 40 years. You don't want to know uh how God called me in that particular church.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

That's the story, that's the story I went to.

Faith in African Contexts

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Maybe I should just share with with people this. I was attending a service, revival service in a Methodist church uh in uh and my my girlfriend was sitting singing the choir. So um, so you know the Methodist priests, man, they they preach, man. And they just keep on going on and on and challenging us to give our lives to the Lord and to ministry. And it was getting late, and I thought, okay, let me just stand up and go in front, accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, and say, God is calling me to ministry. I I I did not take it serious, but from there he mentored me, which was what I will talk about in uh the need for having an older person journey with you. So Murdu Mulwabi has been doing that until today. Yeah, so that's how I was called and went to Clemstown, finished ministry, kind of came back, worked, and then I was elected bishop in 2012. And I've been a bishop by recently retired. Yeah.

unknown 6:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:25

And so what has been the I think what has been your true north when it comes to your spirituality? What has grounded you um and how has it changed? Because I'd like to assume that from the moment you made that decision to say, uh, just to just to buy time or to make this thing end quick, let me give my life to Christ. What what happened to you spiritually from that moment and and coming to this point?

SPEAKER_02 6:51

Um I earlier on I spoke about the the importance of hanging around elderly people. That that is what has kept me going. Uh, because from time to time I will go to Datumulabi, ask questions, and um and also older brothers, Bamukasi, you know, uh, even in my township, even if they were not educated, but they were wise in a way. Yeah. So I will hang around with them and listen to what they say. So the the spirituality of accepting that you need somebody to hold your hand has been very important for me until today. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 7:39

Say more. Like I like that part, the spirituality of knowing that you need someone to hold your hand. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:45

Uh uh, life is all about um walking, and you can't just walk alone. You must walk with other people around you and allow them to hold your hand. And this is this is what I have done. You know, as a young person, we are always tempted at that time to hang around Liddy Chomi and all that, which is which is a good thing, but from time to time you need somebody who is much wiser. And I'm not saying intelligent, I'm talking about somebody who's wise, who can give you wise words. Um, growing up in that area, um, my grandfather, and all that, and it was very interesting that every day my grandfather would take time after lunch and sit on his own to reflect on life. And and I think that is why they would come up with sayings and proverbs. And uh, this day is a power nep. But in the olden days, no hotin that uh it's taking time to reflect, and I saw him doing this almost every day of the week, and we knew we knew that when he was in that space, we were not allowed to disturb him. So this has helped me big time in uh my spiritual journey as a bishop, as a priest, as a husband, and as a as a as a father, as a grandfather. Time to take time out to reflect um on life around you and accept what is happening around you. Yeah, and and and as a bishop, that is what I have been encouraging uh the clergy to do.

SPEAKER_03 10:07

Yeah. So when it comes to spirituality, and and I think speaking as a fairly young man, um, there's so many other things that are enticing in the world, you know, um the nightlife, um, the very materialistic nature of wanting things, right? And and and living for the moment. Um and and and I'm finding that for a lot of us, you know, we get so caught up in the world, if one would put it as that, that there's no time to think or reflect. Because there's something always there's always something new that you need to chase. There's always something new that you want to discover. Um and so, and so how does one in you know the the hustle and the bustle of of of Johannesburg or corporate South Africa of the world, NJ, um find moments within chasing careers and love and all of that? How do you make that time to actually to even pray, right? Or to be with God. Um, and even worse, when you go to churches, um churches globally are full of women, um, and the men aren't aren't entirely there. And and for me, I'm always wondering where are the men um spiritually if they are not in church.

Redefining Masculinity & Embracing Vulnerability

SPEAKER_02 11:29

I wanna your question it's it's very broad, and it would need more time to to to reflect on it. But the reality is that at the moment we uh and and particularly younger men out of my own experience, is that we let me go back to what I said at the beginning. As much as you hang around with your peers, look for an older timer who's not intelligent but who's wise. And make time. I mean, if if I'm able to make time to do all these other things, then I should be able to make time to sit down and look at my own life and allow somebody to reflect with me. Because you may you make time to go to party, you you make time, you make time to to hustle, you make time. So maybe, maybe it's just making time for, and I want to stress this, to take time out even during the day. It should be an everyday thing. That that is that is what I do and and and I have been doing. But I I was I had to be willing to say to myself, all these things that I'm rushing after, I'll get them, and then what? And then what? That's and and if I did not do that, my marriage will be in a crisis, I wouldn't have a good relationship with my daughters, and my son will pass down, I wouldn't have even time for my grandchildren. Mobufelung, in the end, in the end, it is not how much hustling I've done, how much I have achieved in life, in the end, it is how much love did I give to myself, to my immediate family, and to the people of God in the church. By the way, I won't pause out this one, but let me say I I realized, Hore, um as a bishop, let me use my role as a bishop. Hore, I had three dioceses to look after. The first diocese is called the Diocese Steve Morel. The second diocese is the diocese I call my family, and the third diocese is this diocese that I was elected into by the people. And I have always said this is diocese number one, and it is so, so important. And if I don't look after this diocese, all the two are not going to work. And and because this one, which is a family, that's the diocese that I go to after I've been clobbered by this diocese. So therefore, I must look after myself and then this one. And if I have to sacrifice this one for the sake of these two, so be it. Sure. So that has been my way of living out this comp, you know. I I feel for you guys. I mean, you during our time, we did not have all these cell phones and all these social things. We didn't have them. But I think still, you can still make good out of this. They are not bad things. Yeah, it is just how do you use them to make sure that you live life fully for yourself, for your family, and then for those you serve in the community.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

I love that. Um, and I so so I think, you know, earlier this year I I called you and I said to you, I sat in church and I I felt empty, right? Um, and I think it's sometimes when you're a priest specifically, you feel you feel like you should never at any point feel like you're far from God or you're not in touch with God. Um, because even praying was uncomfortable. Yeah, um, worshiping didn't make sense. And and for me, that was it felt really weird. And I was just like, what the hell is happening to me? You know? Um, and even in a chat with one of my friends, I was like, maybe I should go back to corporate, because clearly um God has left me, or the voice of God is no longer present in my life. Um, and and when we had a chat, um, you then said, you know, this is exactly where God wants you to be, right? It's it's how do we navigate dry seasons in our lives? And I think dry seasons don't just happen spiritually, but I find that somehow a sense of spirituality is what helps you manage and cope with dry seasons. Um, and and and and maybe that's that's something I'd like you to get into is how how did you manage your dry seasons, both when you were a priest and when you were a bishop? Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

And and I remember that day when you when you when you said you feel uh dry, yeah, you feel prayerless, yeah, uh, you feel godless. And I said, wow, you should actually celebrate that.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:50

It's it's a very good season. God can only uh water when we're dry.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Dryness attracts the Holy Spirit to come and refresh us. When there were many times when I felt, God needs to call me again. Yeah, there was a time when I wanted to leave ministry, but I knew that that was a very important season in my journey for God to recall me to become what God wants me to become. And for people who say to me, uh Murtika Bel who say to me that they don't feel God, I always say to them, that's the time actually when God feels you picked up, you might not be feeling God. And actually, it's yeah, you see now what's talk, let's talk about the real thing. Yeah, the real thing is not about God, whether I feel God. What has made me survive in ministry and as as as uh and in my role in different spheres of communal life is understanding that God loves me unconditionally. Richard Raw says, and I know that you read Richard Raw, we are divine first. We're just struggling to understand what is it to be human. So I'm divine. So God will never leave me. And in that scripture, you know, I always quote nothing, Romans chapter 8. Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing will separate me from the love of God. Three seasons, godlessness, prayerlessness, those will never separate me from the love of God. And I think that is that has kept me going. Um but I suppose Majitama will say, hey, but Ike koki, you know, therefore, hey, I keep close to Mudim. We must know who is everywhere. That's that we understand. Mudimu everywhere. Yeah, uh, so you cannot say because I'm partying, therefore I should do whatever I I want to do, because God is not there. And oh rather blind until it's just fella, I just enjoy, but know that yeah, it it has to be responsibly. So that that is how I I acknowledging and welcoming each season of life as it comes. Uh next time we can talk about my wife's illness, we can talk about my son who struggled with the drugs, and and we we can talk about that just to encourage other parents who are struggling with that. Um, acknowledging a season where you are. It's not easy. It's not easy, but but that's where you are in that particular moment.

SPEAKER_03 21:18

But but but how do you hold how do you hold others whilst you're in that moment? Because I think for me that that was that was my biggest struggle was how do I hold space for others when I myself am not feeling held um or spiritually strong? Because in my mind, that is that is when one is more spiritually vulnerable. Um and and and and that's it becomes tricky to then hold space for the other individuals that you serve and work with.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

In my journey as a as a as a as a as a both as a priest and as a bishop, I have found when you are vulnerable to God's people, they connect with you much better. There were there were times when I would say, Bazaluan, uh today uh today I can't preach. I am empty, I've got nothing to offer you today. And it is amazing that when I did that, but I have to be careful, otherwise you can be lazy, you know. Uh you and then you always say that, yeah. But when when you you when you do that, when you say to the family, I'm not in a good space, say to the church, I'm not in a good space. I I've got nothing to offer you today, but all I can offer you today, it is my presence. All I can offer you today, it is just to hold your hands and cry with you. That's all I can do. And that way I found people then will call me, and a number of times people will call me and say to me, Neil, let's pray for you. So they become ministers to me. But if you know, people want to be, we always want to be heroes. To be a zero sometimes is good. And say, I can't today, I can't. You're expecting me to give so much. I can't. I'm empty today.

Spiritual Disciplines That Anchor Men

SPEAKER_03 23:39

So being a zero, right? Um I like that because I think once again, being a zero means people expect less from you, um, but also it means they there there's no anticipation of any sort of performance. But I think for me, once again, it's it's the it's the emptying of oneself, yeah, so that you can you can be able to receive. And and and it goes back to to what you said at the beginning where you said, you know, find someone who can hold your hand. Um is it is only in those moments of vulnerability that you I guess figure out who's there for you. Um in those moments of vulnerability that you find others who are probably in the same on the same journey. Um, and that in itself is is is is a form of of I guess structure and stability, right? Um and I was I was at a conference two years ago or so, um, and I think it was Dr. Suleiman, um, gift um you know, gift of the givers, who in his speech, you know, said in any sphere of life, do not trust any man or woman without a spirituality. Um, and that stood out for me. And it was like, it's it's not about being Christian or Muslim or Hindu or um or or or Judaic, but it's actually about being grounded in the knowledge of and understanding that there is a God and that God works. Like anyone in any leadership position without a spirituality should not be trusted. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

This is deep. As a bishop, I have always been saying I don't want to ordain anyone who's definitely sure that God has called them. Ah no. That one, I doubt. No, no, no, no. I always have been attracted and want to lay hands on people who are not sure about their calling. Because if you are not sure, then you are vulnerable and you'd want to be open to more of God. But fill people, people who are full cannot be filled. It's only people who are empty who can be emptied. And and it's and and exactly what uh he said, this guy was gift of the givers. Recently, I I've been reading um a very interesting translation, um, and in one of the commentaries, this guy says, We are fully physical and we are fully spiritual. Yeah. So a person who does not look after the their spirituality and live only as a human being, that they are not balanced. So, you know, you I wouldn't hang around that person. But a person who says, I'm divine, I'm divine, and I'm struggling to be human, I will hang around that person. And I think what you're saying, it's uh we we we we should, I'm not saying um look down on ourselves, I'm not saying that. But to always say that, wow, there are moments in my life where I need more than what I think I need in others to help me and and God, whatever God you believe in. In my case, it is God who has um um shown God's self in in Jesus the Christ and and the power of the Holy Spirit. That is at least I've got something that I'm I can refer to. I can Jesus is my reference all the time in whatever I I go through. But if you want to live a life without reference to anything, hey, that's dangerous, in my view. Sure. Yeah, yeah. And um my my dream is when when when a young person says to me they don't believe in God, sure, I like it, man. I like it. That's a very important uh space that God creates for me, not to tell them about Jesus, but to love them.

SPEAKER_03 28:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

Um you see, the the more I acknowledge the need for God, it is the more I'll be able to love myself much easier, my family and other people around me.

SPEAKER_03 29:07

So I I I want to go, I want to deviate slightly. Um one of my friends, uh Dr. Nzam, um shared about uh his experience of his brother taking his life. Um, and that then took him through a journey of um, you know, he then started, he went and read suicide notes. He read like more than 2,000, 3,000 plus suicide notes from men. Um and he said the key words that he found in all of these suicide notes were I am useless and I am worthless. Um and that for me connects quite quite quite deeply with what you like, you know, when you were speaking about the importance of caring for both. This person, loving this person, prioritizing this individual, but also prioritizing this individual's relationship with the spiritual nature of one's existence, I guess, and the physical. And for me, it went back to exactly that is there are so many men who are struggling to exist, who are struggling to be, to be men, who are struggling to be heads of their households. And out of the 13,000 plus, 10,000 plus are men. And so when you link that to I am useless, I am worthless, where is the space for God to work for a man that feels like that or a young person that feels like that?

SPEAKER_02 31:16

You you are quoting stats according to the researchers. Yes. For me, just driving around Johannesburg tells me the story. Very few women are standing street corners. Now using religious language, I want to say that I I I think I think Satan or Diabolus, whatever you want to call the spirit knows the scripture very well that the first person God created was man. And the authority and the spiritual authority of men, and the only way to destroy family is to make sure that you put in men's minds that they are useless. I I've been saying I'm not answering directly, I've been saying that in your case, you cannot delegate your spiritual headship of your family to your wife. You can't because that's who you are. And now yeah, it's it's it's it's it's it's it's a it's a it's a difficult one because if you've got more men who always tell themselves that they are worthless, they are useless, that's going to affect the whole community and their families. That's the way it is, and that is why I've been saying it is time for us men who by the grace of God or God has saved us because you and I could have been there. If each one of us can just mentor one young man, yeah, not not three or four, just one making a difference in one person, you are making a difference in so many people around that person. Uh, like my son, um his way of life affected us so much as a family. So I think actually your your question is it's not just a question, it's a challenge to other men um to make sure that just one man that you can meet with regularly, just share with them, I'm sure we'll have a different world altogether. Um just before I came here, I I was I'm in a in a process of doing a an assessment of that's the other thing, assessment of where you are. And I think as men we are we are scared of checking on ourselves. Uh we're scared of that. It it was not easy, but it was it was challenging.

SPEAKER_03 35:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

But I knew when I leave that place being happy, I will go back into my family, to my wife, to my children, my grandchildren, being and I will I will infect them with a positive, happy spirit. Yeah. Yeah, it's uh yeah, I'm sorry I don't have um an answer for that. I think it's because also it's touching on what I went through with my son. And and and who felt yeah I'm useless, uh can't do anything, yeah.

When Life Breaks You

SPEAKER_03 35:46

And a part of me, and a part of me feels I think it's at one day, um, and maybe not today, that that's a conversation that you you can share with us. Um just I think you know, we we did an episode recently on on addictions, um, and we're looking at how that in itself is a huge displacer of men, um, and and and and and just the impact that it actually has on the people around you, on your own mental health, on your spirituality, and so forth. Um, and I find that I think part of what I'm I'm I'm noticing with probably my generation is it's the addiction to not investing in ourselves spiritually. Um, because spiritual spirituality demands a very high level of of vulnerability that we're not willing to surrender. Um and it's also about letting go. Uh so and and and and I'm very keen to to hear just understand that that impact that as a father watching your son struggle with with drugs um whilst your calling was to serve the community, um, and and and what that did to your own ministry, what type of reflections did it put you into? Um, because I I I I don't think you you walked away unchanged. I think I think it oh yeah, it changed a big part of who you are.

SPEAKER_02 37:27

Um big big time, big time, big time, Rudy. Um yeah, I'm I'm happy to come and obviously I have to check with family first. Yes, um, just check, you know, um uh but they are aware of this, and and I'm happy to come and and and share that story, yeah. Um in order to help parents who are going through what I went through.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

And let me just say, and that will be my introduction when we talk about that, yeah, that there's no parent who wants to give birth to a drug addict or whatever addict. No parents. And God does not form in any woman's womb a drug addict or whatever addict never.

Hope, Redemption & Calling

SPEAKER_03 38:29

Sure. I'm even struggling to continue from this point now. Because that's I think it's such a it's such a powerful thing that I think many of us are not reminded of consistently is a lot of us are victims of our circumstances or decision making. Um, but that was not what we were destined to be. Um, you know, at no point did God create men to be useless or create men to be without spirituality or create men to be um abusers, right? Um when we when we speak about gender-based violence in South Africa, the face of that are men. Um you know, there is no point in the story of God where God says, I'm going to create a bunch of men who are going to be useless abusers who are drunkards with no spirituality and want to destroy society. Um and that's part of what we're wanting to unlearn, right? And that's why men's playing came about. It was a bunch of magita saying, Amen, homies are not doing okay. We're struggling with, like Ustex was saying, you know, in in one of our one of our one of our shows, that, you know, as a young man at 21, a girl, you know, came to his family and said, I'm pregnant and he's the dad. Um and after they'd done DNA tests to find out that actually he's not the dad. Um, and I think there's so many stories out there of men who have raised kids that are not theirs, um, who have accepted, I guess, burdens that are not theirs because that's just where they found themselves at that point in time. But I think also very few survived that. Right? Very few survived that experience that Ustex had, and then start their own family and become present dads. Um, and and and once again, it goes back to none of us were created to be disappointments or failures. Um, and it's a very it's a very profound thing, right? Um I think it's it's it's Maya Angelo that says to the same extent that some of us could be a Martin Luther King or a Malcolm X or whoever it may be, we're all capable of murder. We're all capable of being criminals and rapists because it is a human condition. It's not a specific calling for certain individuals. It's just in the right situation with the right circumstances, you can be a murderer, um, or an addict to alcohol, to drugs, to sex, whatever it may be. Um, and so what is possible for one human is available to you. You're you're yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

I I always used to say that we are all prisoners who are not in prison yet. Yeah, it's just you know, by in my case, by the grace of God that God keeps on coming back and saying, No, I don't want that you guys, all of them come back, come back so that you can help others. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, so in our next conversation I'll have uh I'll share deeply uh with uh about my son and also the the importance of forgiveness um as men. Yeah, yeah. I'll share a story of um going to my father's grave at the age of 55 to forgive him, and I believe that unforgiving spirit is also what is holding men big time.

Closing Reflections

SPEAKER_03 42:21

That's the bishop. Um there's I think a lot that we can talk about. We could probably be here for days on end. Yeah. Um but I think currently I just ask you to maybe just give just five steps on how one begins a spiritual journey for themselves in creating the sacred in themselves and in the environments that they live in. So just five tips on on how we begin that.

SPEAKER_02 42:49

Um the the all I all I can only share my own experience. And yeah, there's the scripture that I hold on to big time, it is Jeremiah chapter one. Whilst you were in your mother's womb, I knew you. There is not one single human being who's known by God. Secondly, I formed you. So, in other words, as uh Francis Ditois say, uh the pastor says, you are you originate, I originate in the mind of God. I originate in the mind of God, and and for me that's important. I was formed by God, I or I origin I originate from God, and I was known by God before I was in my mother's womb. And then I would suggest that remind yourself every day that I am divine. I have the godness in me. And the fifth one is get somebody you can hang around hang around with and be open to that person, whether you call that person a coach, a whatever, what a mentor, whatever, but have somebody you can be open to from time to time.

SPEAKER_03 44:39

Kellwahant Bishop. And yeah, once again, this is men's plane, a place where we speak about what it means to be a man in the 21st century, but also looking at how do we become better, how do we go back to, I guess, the original source of what God intended us to be. And so as we journey, as we learn, as we read, as we pray, as we spend time with ourselves and with God, may we find those moments of finding somebody to hold our hands as we figured out what it means to be a man. Um, there's no need to do this life thing on your own. There's many people who have journeyed before you, and their wisdom can be the exact thing that you need. And so from the main splendid team, Ralu Bokanta Tepishop, uh Murato, um, thank you for joining us, and we look forward to our next conversations with you. Awesome. Um I think I think many people are are going to be very keen um to hear that. But I but I I I pray that as you pray through what what it is that will come out on that day, that uh Mudimu gives you, I guess, the wisdom and and the heart and the courage to just yeah speak from the heart, but also in a way that honors your that honors you, your family, and your son. Um in telling the story. Yeah. Radulhandisho. Kalebuharra, thank you. Thank you. And this is Mansplane, and I'm Kabel Mutakan.