From earth to easel: Kirsten Kurtz paints with soil

Kirsten Kurtz, assistant director of the Cornell Soil Health Lab, discusses her practice of painting with soil, the need for creativity in science and why “the skin of the earth” is more than just dirt.

Transcript

David Nutt  0:05  
Welcome to the Innovators and Impact podcast, where we speak with the Cornell researchers behind our latest headlines about how they came to make their discoveries and what their discoveries mean for the world. Today We're talking with Kirsten Kurtz, an extension support specialist and assistant director of the Cornell Soil Health Lab. She's also a painter, a painter who paints with soil. Kirsten, which came first. Your interest in soil science or painting?

Kirsten Kurtz  0:34  
Well, I've always been an artist, since I was very, very young, and I actually was focused on video, like really artsy, video, art kind of stuff, and illustration. And then I got into painting after I got interested in soil, because I was inspired by the colors of soil that came into the Cornell Soil Health Lab. 

David Nutt  1:04  
Describe those colors like, what about them inspired you? 

Kirsten Kurtz  1:09  
Yeah. So of course, they're earth tones, right? As you would expect. You know, reds and browns and yellows and gold. But what really surprises me and gets me excited is that you'll see blues and greens and purples, and some of the minerals will add a sparkle, or the texture can be very, very smooth or very rough. There's sands, there's clays. The colors are almost anything you can imagine in a earth based palette.

David Nutt  1:44  
I've never seen blue soil, so this is surprising to me, and where are these samples coming from? And tell me a little bit about what the lab does. Why are these showing up in the mail? 

Kirsten Kurtz  1:53  
So the Cornell Soil Health Lab is the top lab of its kind. We were the first soil health testing lab, and we remain the leaders in the world. So we receive samples from around the planet. We receive samples from basically any type of agricultural system you can imagine, but also from botanic gardens, from zoos, from the National Monument, like just a very, very wide range of sources. 

David Nutt  2:25  
And what are they looking for when they send you the soil? 

Kirsten Kurtz  2:27  
So we look at soil for physical, chemical and biological properties. So typically soil testing, we would refer to it as a chemical testing. So that's looking at major, minor nutrients. It's looking at pH, it's looking at organic matter percentage. But what's really different about what we do, and now there are a lot of labs that are modeling themselves after us, is that we also look at the physical and the biological properties all together in a holistic way, so they're all weighted evenly, and then we rate the results against all of the other many 10s of 1000s of samples we have received in our lab, and we report them back in an easy to understand way that involves a color coded rating system. It involves an explanation of what these different soil properties are, how they're going to affect your farming system, as well as short- and long-term management suggestions that you could use in order to improve the soil health on your farm.

David Nutt  3:37  
Aside from the colors, like, what's it like working with that medium, you know, how do you prepare it? How do you apply it? How's it different from using, you know, normal acrylic paint?

Kirsten Kurtz  3:50  
Yeah, so I got interested in it because I really didn't like the colors of acrylic paint, or even watercolors, like, I can find them to be kind of like, garish, you know? And honestly, I wasn't that great at sort of like color matching with acrylic paint. I started out painting with acrylic, but then when I started to work with soil, I found that every color of soil looks beautiful with every other color of soil. So my method involves mixing sieved dried soil with water and clear gesso. And what that does is it captures the color exactly as it would appear in the skin of the Earth. It was a unique method. People have been painting with soil, you know, since, like the caves, right, forever. So I certainly didn't invent using soil to make paint or using soil as an art form. There's a lot of artists that use soil as an art form, but I did develop the method that I use, and I've shared my methods publicly, and now they're used around the world by soil science like educators as well as other fine artists.

David Nutt  5:01  
And you know what's what's like, what's distinct about about that method, like, what are the virtues of it?

Kirsten Kurtz  5:06  
My paintings usually involve at least 10 layers of soil, up to 20, sometimes a little bit less, if I'm going for a less intense kind of texture for my paintings. But what it does is they look like soil, right? Like, I almost want it to look like soil is being poured onto the canvas. So if you were to touch it, which, of course, I'm like, please don't touch my paintings. But if you were to touch it, it's very, very bumpy, you know, and it's highly textured, which lends something really powerful, I think, to the paintings, and it also keeps them from being too perfect. Although I am, you know, somewhat of a representational, you know, kind of like realistic style painter. So I love the challenge of that. I'm like, how much can I actually, you know, paint this hand and get it to really look like a hand with soil, but then it can never be too perfect, like the soil is almost the other artist that I'm collaborating with.

David Nutt  6:11  
How long does it last? Does it have the same like lifespan as traditional paint? Or Are there limitations to that?

Kirsten Kurtz  6:20  
No, I believe that they'll last forever. I did a painting for this contest that was put on by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization, an international soil painting contest that was based off of the work that I was already doing. And when we framed that, it's called "Three Sisters in Soil." I donated it to Cornell. It's hanging in the entrance to the Bradfield Emerson complex on campus. But when we framed it, we left a space in case any soil was going to kind of like chip off. Because it was one of my earliest pieces, I didn't know exactly what was going to happen, and nothing has moved at all. It's kind of like painting with plaster, or almost like making concrete, you know. So it's very, very, very stable. And then I also seal it with a high quality, museum grade varnish in the thoughts that at some point they might need to be cleaned or something like that.

David Nutt  7:17  
And tell me a little bit about the things you like to paint, like the subjects. When you say realism, you know, is it people? Is it landscapes? Is there anything that you're particularly drawn to?

Kirsten Kurtz  7:29  
I've done a lot of paintings of hands. I think a lot about, you know, putting our hands in the soil, feeling the soil. You know, we know that putting your hands in the soil actually, like, helps you to feel more happy. I mean, science has proven that, which is really amazing to me, and I can attest to it personally. So I like to paint hands. I like to paint portraits of people, but I've painted landscapes. I've painted a lot of logos for companies. I've painted a lot of dogs, because once somebody sees a dog painted in soil, then other people will commission portraits of their dogs in soil. I think I could paint almost anything in soil.

David Nutt  8:14  
Tell me a little bit about the community component of your work.

Kirsten Kurtz  8:20  
Yeah, community is really important to me. I've been actively working on building community in my personal life, and I'm always interested in building community professionally. I believe that together, we can do so much more than we can alone. So I've integrated that mindset into my art, and I hold these community soil painting events, and I have a bunch of different methods for doing that. Sometimes I will design a simple canvas and invite the public to paint it with me. Sometimes I work on a complex piece so that people can see the potential of it as an art form while they're painting their own paintings, maybe on a small canvas that they can bring home. I also recently did some illustrations of I like to call them soil creatures, so like the tardigrade or the dung beetle, things that we know live in the soil and help make up that life of the soil. So I did these illustrations, and I had them made into stamps, and I stamped canvases, and then people have the opportunity to, you know, paint their own tardigrade, which I found really successful, because it's a way for me to talk about the life of the soil, to talk about the science. And I've also noticed that a lot of people are scared of a white canvas. So if I just hand out these little mini white canvases for them to paint with soil, everyone's kind of like, 'I don't know what to paint.' But mostly, what I love about it the most is that I think that we need more creativity in science, and we need to attract more creative people to science and learn to communicate the important work that we're doing here at Cornell or across scientific institutions across the world. We need to share that with the public in a way that's interesting and not just like deathly boring. So when I'm having these events, I'm able to talk about, you know, the chemistry behind the colors. I'm able to talk about the texture of the soils and how that would influence farming systems. I'm able to talk about, you know, that life of the soil, and it's a way to get people to think about soil in a new way, to think about how beautiful it is, how interesting it is. And also, you know, I hope to inspire the next generation to also want to study soil science, because it's so important for our future. 

David Nutt  10:50  
When you're talking to people about this stuff, you know, what do you think is like the what's the biggest misperception about soil.

Kirsten Kurtz  10:56  
That it's just dirt, which I can't even believe I use that word, because I can't stand it. You know, dirt is soil that's somewhere you don't want it to be like your jeans, right? Soil is the skin of the earth. It's what gives our food the nutrients that we need to survive. I think that if people understood that the healthier soil is, the healthier their food is that that could make a really big difference. We've lost a lot of the arable or farmable soil on our planet at this point, which is really scary. You know, the FAO says we've lost about a third of the arable soil on our planet. But the technology, the knowledge, the passion, you know, the science, is there to preserve and improve the soil that we have. So I hope that I can get people to see it as this important, even sacred, thing that is worth protecting. 

David Nutt  11:59  
We're going to lose even more soil if people are painting with it.

Kirsten Kurtz  12:03  
Well, I paint with soil that comes into our lab. So people send samples to our lab, and if it comes from an area that's not regulated by APHIS... So APHIS is the part of the government that kind of controls imports and helps us to be safe from invasive species and things like that. So there's a lot of regulations around soil when it comes to APHIS. So soil that comes from a non-APHIS location, I'm able to save the leftover soil. So I'm actually saving us from having to pay to dispose of that soil. And now all of our lab techs, our crew, they know if it's a really cool color, they'll, like, set it aside for me. They're like, Kirsten, oh my gosh, this amazing red just came in. Like, you have to see this. So I pretty much already have a lifetime supply of soil, but I continue to save more, because I do use a lot of it at these events, in addition to personally as an artist.

David Nutt  13:04  
I understand that for your first three years at Cornell, you didn't tell anyone you were an artist.

Kirsten Kurtz  13:11  
Yeah, that's true. When I came to Cornell, I was actually an art school dropout. And I think I'm brave enough to, like, admit that publicly now, because I became obsessed with agriculture, right? So I was in art school, and I was listening to everyone tell me that I would never make money, and I was always kind of brainy and getting good grades and things like that. But like, all I cared about was art. But when I got introduced to agriculture in a more formal way, I was raised on a farm also, but I wasn't really excited about farming as a child, you know. But when I started working in vineyards, I got really interested in soil, and I decided, OK, this is a way that I can, like, make money, contribute to society, and also hopefully still have time to be an artist on the side. And then eventually I got introduced to the director of our lab, and he offered me a job like taking soil samples, which I love, just going out in the fields, and like busting it, working these really long, hard days taking a bunch of samples, but and I started to think, like, maybe I could be a scientist, you know, like, even though I don't have this, like, super analytical mind, it turns out that's not true. Like, I do have an analytical mind, but I never knew it. I was also homeschooled, so I didn't have the chance to, like, compare myself to other kids in the way that a lot of people do. So I didn't really get an idea of who I was until I went to college, you know, and I did really well in college anyway. But I was like, 'OK, I care about ag, I'm dropping out of art school. I'll never make money as an artist.' Blah, blah, blah. So then I started working up here. And I got really obsessed with soil. I moved into the lab, kind of out of the field. Got really interested in, like, the steps involved with doing analysis, like following those directions, seeing the results, you know, really learning something about every sample. It was, like, really fascinating to me. But I didn't know anyone who was an artist, who was also a soil scientist, right? And like, representation is really important. So to have someone to, like, look up to, to have an example, I think, is really important, especially as, like, a woman artist, you know, or a woman scientist, rather like, that was, like, a little more rare when I first started. But yeah, I just didn't think that anyone would take me seriously, or maybe they would like question my results, right? And then once I started to put them together, I still didn't really tell anyone. I went back to art school, like while working full time, and got my undergrad in fine art, because, of course, Cornell, you know, we care about education. And then I started my master's here at Cornell right after that. But I was getting interviewed by this woman Summer Rayne Oakes, about what we were doing in the lab. And then I mentioned my art. She saw some of my art, and she was like, 'Oh my gosh, this is really cool. I want to do something about this also,' and I think that that helped me to see the power behind it. And I also think that like understanding that I could use my art as a communication tool helped me to understand that it was OK for me to bring them together and bring both sides of myself to bear as part of my position here at Cornell. And then also, finally, sorry, really long answer, I think, our famous slogan is any person, any study, right? And because of my unconventional background, and because of this belief that I can create my own future and create my own position that is like appropriate for me. You know, now I'm the assistant director of the lab, and I'm able to bring in my passion for communication, my passion for art, with the analytical side, and I believe it makes me actually a more successful scientist.

David Nutt  17:22  
Tell me about where you grew up. You mentioned it was on a farm. Is it New York State?

Kirsten Kurtz  17:27  
Yeah, I grew up near Alfred in Western New York on a 200-acre organic farm. My mother homeschooled me and my four siblings, as well as a bunch of other random kids, honestly, our friends and such. So my mom had a genius IQ, and she did a really amazing job, I think, with our education, in that she had us propose how we would learn things, right? So she would say, OK, beginning of the school year, these are all of the things that you need to learn this year. Come back to me with a proposal as to how you're going to learn this. So for anatomy, for example, you know, of course, I did illustrations, right? And things like that, and that really helped to prepare me for graduate school, because graduate school is very much an independent process, which I didn't really understand when I first started graduate school. I thought it was a little more like hand holding, but of course, it's not. It's about teaching you to be an independent researcher. So that was really helpful. And then she also would get us like tutors, right? So, anything. So I had, like a French tutor. I had MFA students, you know, master of fine arts students for my art tutors my whole childhood. So I ended up getting this, like, really amazing education, especially in art, but then also in farming, right? So it'd be half the day, really, only four hours a day we would spend on school. And I went to public school for two weeks, once in middle school, and because I thought I wanted to go, my mom said, OK, you can go for two weeks and see if you like it, and if you do, I'll send you next year. And I couldn't take it because it was so boring and slow, and there was all these, like, study periods and, like, not a lot of content all at once. It just wasn't what I was used to. I was used to kind of, like this intense study time, you know. And I did a lot of reading when I was a kid, also. Anyway, so the other half of the day was spent, like, working on the farm, like my parents were, I say this often, but like, very pro child labor, I think in a good way, you know. So it was like me and my siblings were out mucking out the barn, you know, moving the manure to the garden. We had at least an acre garden. We fed ourselves, mostly from the farm that I grew up on. You know, I learned about composting, I learned about crop rotations, I learned about soil management at a really young age, which ended up being so beneficial to me. Like, when I came to Cornell and I started taking classes here, 100% like, there were things that I wasn't really prepared for, like, sometimes I would have to work harder than the other students for some, like, background information that they maybe learn in, like, prep school or something that just wasn't the kind of education that I had. But then, on the other hand, there were so many things that I just always knew about in agriculture, especially and in soil science that gave me a real advantage. So it sort of evened out with, like, being like, oh my gosh, my chemistry was definitely not exactly like some of these kids. You know? What they already know about chemistry. I'm like, studying chemistry on the side in my soil chemistry class, right? And then, on the other hand, I'm understanding, like, you know, big deal, like farming systems and, like, how that actually works in a way that maybe they had never been exposed to. So I think that it, it really prepared me for Cornell, especially in the like, kind of, as I said earlier, like the making your own future, right? Like, I don't feel at this point anyway, at all weird about being a scientist and an artist and a communicator and a writer. I've started doing a lot of writing for like, fine gardening and such. You know, it's it makes sense to me that I'm a complex person, working on a complex subject and sharing that information in in a complex way, but I respect the intelligence of the world, and it seems like people can handle it

David Nutt  21:46  
Wnd what brought you to Cornell like, what appealed to you about, about this university?

Kirsten Kurtz  21:52  
I was introduced to the director of our lab by a friend of mine who is going here for his MPS in soil science with Johannes Lehman, and they just needed help in the lab, right? So I met the director, and we hit it off. I like to say, he doesn't think it's true, but I think he, you know, decided to keep me on and kind of, you know, he became my mentor once you saw me handle a shovel. I've done a lot of digging in my life, and I can go out and bust it and take a lot of samples very accurately, very quickly. I mean, I can almost tell, like other kids that were raised on farms, you just learn how to, like, work hard, and also to work efficiently, like, for the goal, right? So he's big on that. It's like, it's about getting the tasks done. I'm not really big on wasting time. You know, if I'm on campus, I work from home also. But like, I just, like, I want to do a really good job, but I do it as efficiently as I possibly can, and just knock through it, and that's part of what allows me to have room for my other creative endeavors, right? Like, I think if I wasn't efficient within my my main job, which is, you know, basically overseeing this really serious lab, then they probably wouldn't be so cool about me going to music festivals and doing soil painting events, or, you know, all these various other side projects I do.

David Nutt  23:26  
So which is more difficult, the life of the scientist or the life of the artist?

Kirsten Kurtz  23:30  
The life of the artist, of course.

David Nutt  23:31  
Yeah. 

Kirsten Kurtz  23:32  
I mean science, science is like clear, you know. We have a clear approach. You have a question, you have methods, you have you know your conclusion. Art is this thing that, like burns inside your soul that needs to get out. And I'm a very visual person, so when I have... I'm about to start a new painting, and I've been thinking about this painting for at least three months, right? And exactly what it's going to look like, and I've been talking to people I trust about my plan for this painting and and refining this idea. And you know, now I'm setting up with a friend to take the photo that I need to use as reference for this painting. I'm thinking about what soil is going to come out. So, like, it's this thing that, just like, bubbles up inside of you that needs to be realized. Whereas, for me, with science, it's more, I'm really passionate about it, but it's, it's like, self explanatory, it's, it's the job, right? And you know that you have these clear goals, like, I don't see the answer to a scientific question, like, as a visual thing in my mind, whereas something I'm trying to communicate within my art, I yeah, I write it, or, like, don't write it, but like, I create it, and then I have to get it on paper right, and then you're trying to get it as close as you possibly can to what was in your mind. This last painting I did, I did this portrait of a dog, and I would imagine that that painting had like, 25 layers, because I just couldn't get it right. And then I thought I had it, and I thought it was finished, and I sent a photo of it to the client, and she said, 'No, like, it's not the nose isn't white enough.' And I was like, 'Oh my God. Like, what are you talking about? I already sealed this thing. Like, I spent, like, three times as much time on this painting as I should have spent on this painting, you know.' And I was like, so bummed. And I had never had, I've sold a lot of paintings, and I've never had someone come back and be like, No, I don't like it. It's not right, you know, anyway, but I wasn't able to find the white that I usually use, which is this kaolinite clay. And I've been looking and looking like I said, I have this gigantic stash of soil. And then she said that, and I was like, I need to find that kaolinite clay. And then I remembered where it was, and sure enough, it was exactly where I thought it was. And I changed it, and I made the white super bright white, like what she was asking for, and it was so much better. And she was completely right. And then the painting was, like, done, and that was a really interesting experience for me, just to have to kind of change it when it was done, and then also realize that, like it's her dog. She knows what that dog looks like, and she's actually the one who's going to know when that painting is finished. It was, it was a very important experience for me, I think, as an artist and as someone who's painting on commission, which is, it can be very challenging, you know, especially when somebody wants something that doesn't necessarily have soil colors. And I'm like, 'Well, this is the palette. You know what I mean, I can't do like neon here.'

David Nutt  27:10  
And do you, I mean, do you go back and forth between working on commissions and then working on, on, on your own stuff, or, or, like, how do you find that balance of making time to do what you want to do, but also, yeah, doing things for others?

Kirsten Kurtz  27:30  
So I had received this really prestigious art residency this year, and then it ended up falling through because, you know, the economy is crazy right now, or whatever, but as part of this residency, basically, they were going to pay me to put together a show, right? And they were going to bring me to Paris, and I was going to meet with these fashion houses. It's very devastating, but it might still work out in the future when they kind of get their grants ironed out. Anyway. But because I applied for and, you know, received this residency, I developed an entire idea for a show, right? And then, you know, they said I got it, and then I didn't get it. And I was just so bummed, but I was like, I can still do this show. I don't need someone to pay me to do this show. I just came up with this, like, beautiful idea, and I need to still realize it, right? So I'm about to start on a large series of very, large-scale soil paintings that are what I want to paint, and I'm excited to show what I can do with it as a medium, and to show sort of like my own vision for it. But, yeah, it's always tricky, you know? It's, I'm a mother, you know, and I have a very serious job. Our lab is incredibly busy, you know, and I'm an artist, and I just bought a house, and I'm trying to start a little farm, and I've got some over achievement issues, to put it mildly. So it's about like, balancing that time. But for me, art makes me so, so happy, and it like releases this sort of like pent up, like energy that I have inside myself. And it's also I've said before, but it's really true. It's like my form of meditation. So I'm really thankful that I found it, and I found a way to squeeze so many different goals into one little life.

David Nutt  29:45  
Do you ever feel like you're stretched too thin?

Kirsten Kurtz  29:48  
I would say I'm always stretched thin. But the truth is, is that when I have like a day off, I feel a little lost, and I think that my personality functions best with just a little too many things on my plate. Like I thrive under pressure, frankly.

David Nutt  30:09  
Maybe this might not be the case for you. But do you feel like when you're like having ambitions and working really hard towards stuff, does that often kind of set... are you more susceptible to disappointment because you're kind of aiming for for something very high.

Kirsten Kurtz  30:25  
I have a saying for myself, which is, I don't believe it until the check shows up in the mail, right? Not that I get paid for, honestly, most of what I do, but like, that's fine, of course, it's all a lot of it's part of my position here. But I, I've had so many things come along where it's like, oh my gosh, this amazing, crazy opportunity. And then, you know, even so, this company paid me to do these three paintings of farm workers, and then they made, like a film about the paintings, and me like giving them to the farm workers, and it was this huge deal. And then the film, like never came out, right? And I've been told that, like it will eventually or something, but this is, we're talking four years ago or something at this point, right? I doubt that it will. And I was told by some of my friends who are more connected in like, major media than I am, that that's, like, pretty standard that, like, it was part of this ad agency was doing this big project, and they probably had like, two or three different angles for how they were gonna promote this project. And then one of those other angles ended up being like the stronger angle, right? But, you know, I got paid for the paintings really well, and I traveled, and I had this, like, epic, amazing experience, meeting these farm workers, presenting them with the paintings, working with these, like large-scale, like media companies. So I learned a ton from that experience. So when something like falls through, I always look to see what the lesson in that is, you know. And even with like something like this, like an interview, I always like, look at the interview, you know, once it comes out, and I see things that I could have done better, you know? And I see things that I'm like, Oh, why didn't I say that? Or why did you talk, typically, why did you talk so long about that? You know what I mean? Because I'm obviously a chatter so I don't, I don't allow myself to be disappointed, because it's all part of the learning experience, and I'm just trying to become like, a stronger communicator, you know, a stronger person. Like I did cry a little bit about losing that art residency with the trip to Paris. I'm not gonna lie, that one like hurt. You know, it was, it was a bummer, but I learned how to write a proposal, and I got an art residency from this amazing company, you know? And I didn't know... I had never done that before, right? And, like, who knows? They're like, Oh yeah, maybe it'll work out in the future. Maybe it will, or maybe I'll apply for a different residency. It's all worth it, as long as you learn something.

David Nutt  33:21  
Is there anything... do you have, like, a bucket list of things that you still creatively really want to do, and you can sort of see it on the horizon, and what are those things?

Kirsten Kurtz  33:32  
Yeah, so I'm working on a movie with like this Hollywood producer, and we've been working on it for a couple years. He came here with a whole crew, and we filmed a promo reel, which is basically like a short version of the movie, and then we pitched it to studios. Amazing experience, you know what I mean? And basically the feedback that we got back from the studios is that we have to have someone famous attached to the project. So, like, I need to find some kind of, like, movie star or something like that, who wants to, like, I guess, come along and learn about soil or even as, like, an executive producer kind of role. So that's like, another example of like, I don't know if that's ever gonna happen, but I continue to work on it. I continue to talk to people about it, I would like to create a series or a movie about what's going on with the soil on our planet. What are the solutions? I know these, like, beautiful in every way, people all around the world working on just like, epic, crazy things related to soil. And I kind of see it is like, almost like Anthony Bourdain style. You know what I mean? I also am planning on writing a book someday. I have a couple different ideas for books and like, we'll see which way I go. I've been working on a coloring book concept, which I've also thought about maybe pairing with some kind of like, maybe like a soil painting kit, something along those lines, like starting to work on some of these things that I do, turning them into, like an educational product to share, because so many people are copying what I'm doing, which was, like, uncomfortable for me initially as an artist, because, like, artists are always inspired by other artists, but you don't like copy other artists, right? But in science, you're like, you take something that someone else did and you build off of it, right? And I didn't understand that at first. I was like, Why are these people, like, running with my stuff? You know what I mean? And then I'm like, no, no. It's like, that's the point. You put it out there. You're trying to get other people to use these tools right as ways to educate the public. So now I'm very pro, so I guess, like, what I'm saying is kind of more formal products, you know, that will share the beauty and interest of soil like at on a global scale.

David Nutt  36:07  
Hypothetical, if you had to give one up, art or science, which would it be?

Kirsten Kurtz  36:16  
I mean, it's like hard to answer that question on a interview at Cornell University, but I'll just be honest, like, if I could just be an artist, I would love that, um, but even if I wasn't working in soil science, formally, I would always be educating the public about soil. So I do a lot of talks, and I take PowerPoints like, super, super seriously, you know. And I'm doing a big thing on soil science communication at the Tri Society meeting this year, which is the soil scientists, the agronomists and the crop scientists. We all come together once a year, and I'm hoping to educate other scientists about communicating in a more effective way, you know, like nothing drives me more crazy than watching someone read their bullet points on a PowerPoint. I can't even tell you how much that bugs me, you know. And I got to do a keynote a couple years ago, um, in North Carolina for this farm worker conference. And it was long, you know, it was an hour talk, and I challenged myself, and I succeeded in having no words on any of my slides. I just had, you know, pictures of farms and mostly pictures of my art, and it was really effective. You know, I'm almost more passionate honestly about scientific communication than I am about art or science, because if we don't get the public to understand what we do as scientists, or even understand like what science is. I think we're in a really dangerous place. Science is always evolving. It's this is the best that we know right now, and we're always working to have more knowledge and to be more efficient. And a lot of people don't understand what science is Like, I didn't know what science was growing up truly. I just thought it was a bunch of facts I didn't know. It's almost like a philosophy, you know. And I think a creative approach to that philosophy of science is going to excite so many more people to get into this. You know what I mean? And that's really what we need, because, you know, up here we're solving these really big world problems, but so many people who are scientists, and I don't blame them for it, but I do think they need training. Don't understand how to explain to the public, in a simple way, what they're actually doing and, more importantly, like why it matters in their life.

David Nutt  39:12  
OK, final question, what gives you hope these days?

Kirsten Kurtz  39:17  
You know, I had an event at the reggae fest a couple weeks ago, and I had my little illustrations of tardigrades and other types of soil creatures. And almost every little kid knew what a tardigrade was, you know, which blew my mind. So if anyone doesn't know what a tardigrade is, you know, it's the most resilient creature on the planet, right? It can live in space. It can live like next to a volcano. It can handle it can be frozen for years and rejuvenate. It's this amazing, resilient creature. And the fact that little kids, like 8 year olds, were like, 'Yeah, I know what a tardigrade is. You don't need to tell me,' just it made me so happy, you know, because I didn't learn about tardigrades until I was at Cornell. And that means something's changing. You know, what we're doing here, what we're doing with soil science, it's trickling down into the minds of like the next generation and the minds of our country and our world, and I'm filled with a lot of hope for the future.

David Nutt  40:30  
That's wonderful. Thanks for talking about this today. 

Kirsten Kurtz  40:33  
My pleasure.