Jessica Noon & Why It Sucks to Work with Founders

Ever had some issues working with founders—those idea-generating machines who keep you on your toes. Together with Jessica Noon, we explore the ups and downs of managing opportunity costs, staying aligned with company values, and balancing personal branding with effective leadership. With a mix of personal stories and practical strategies, we unpack how founders can avoid falling into the ‘cult of personality’ trap, manage their ideas without overwhelming their team, and foster a balanced, self-aware leadership style that supports growth and collaboration.

Connect with Jessica:
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/daybreak_jess/
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicahnoon/
Offer: https://www.daybreakideas.com/swt

Time Stamps:
01:26 Why It Sucks to Work with Founders
06:53 The Cult of Personality in Business
08:18 Challenges of Scaling a Founder-Led Business
15:44 The Importance of Self-Awareness for Founders
17:41 Hiring and Managing a Team as a Founder
23:24 Managing Ideas and Priorities in a Founder-Led Business

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Transcript

Episode 069: Jessica Noon
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Jessica Noon: [00:00:00] if there's also an opportunity cost, if you're constantly adding, adding, adding without looking at, well, what are we supposed to do with the things that we were already supposed to do?

Do we stop? Do we delay them? Do we? change the deadlines? Don't just assume. I think this would be my advice, too, if you're in a founder led business or working for a founder right now. It's really let them know, hey, here's the opportunity cost. I just want to make sure that this is in line with your thoughts, right?



Joanna Newton: Welcome back to another episode of Her First. Today we are talking all about why it sucks to work with founders, um, which is going to be a fun topic because I'm a founder and I've worked for founders and we've got a lot to talk about. And we have a very special guest joining us to help us along the way.

With our conversation. Jessica Noon is here with us [00:01:00] today. She is a transformation coach for individuals and businesses. She works with entrepreneurs, making the leap from solopreneur to CEO and helps them restructure their role and their team for maximum scalability and helps founders develop the core skill sets they need to make them inspiring leaders, which is something I think lots of leaders need is great training. Welcome, Jessica. So glad you're here.

Jessica Noon: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. 

Joanna Newton: again, why I think it's so interesting as all three of us in this conversation, our founders and have worked with founders. So we really can see both sides of the coin and what that takes.

I'd love for you to get us started by just telling a story to us about why it works. Sucks to work with founders

Jessica Noon: I have worked for truly incredible founders, um, who were great leaders, really professional, and I have also worked for quite frightful founders who made their businesses all about them, and [00:02:00] it's, feel like we should retitle this episode How Not to be a Cult Leader, because sometimes that's the same person, right? So you asked for a story. I'm going to anonymize this story very heavily. I worked for a founder who was an incredible visionary. Really clear about the change that they were trying to make in the world, it was really inspiring when I first started there. It was, I think I wrote on a feedback form that I would rather be there than Disney World, which is a weird thing to say.

Now, looking back, and maybe should have been my first First sign that that's not like a normal thing to say, right? for a time, it was, it was amazing. We were all working together towards this bigger goal. That part worked really well. And then I watched this person. Devolve a bit into it so personal and that's where things really went off the rails.

It was less about what we were trying to do [00:03:00] together and it was more about like making him feel about it instead of us feeling great about it. Does that make sense? It was like the messaging became about him and not us. So what that looks like in practice was, We started out having very defined work hours and prioritize a lot of personal time and then it evolved into Well, you better answer my emails within six minutes or less and That's not really good for anyone right including that person then it became you got a bad glass door review and we're going to hunt down and find and talk to the person and get them to take it down like that just took over their team's time and energy. And like, these are the things that when it becomes, we came about this person and not about the work, it really damaged the company. And honestly, it was, it became really, really [00:04:00] hard. learning, one takeaway is that it is not about. managing the founders feelings where it shouldn't be but in so many environments it is but it's hard because very few of us have seen another way. Of doing this. And so you don't have any other model other than, well, I'm the magic of the business and the, so this business is me.

And so it becomes about you when it should be still about the mission. It's easy to lose track of that. The bigger your company gets.

Michelle Pualani: So it sounds like a founder instance in which started with the vision, the mission in mind. I mean, we've had this great conversation on the podcast before about visionary integrator and the roles that are played within the EOS worldwide kind of ideation of small business. I identify as a founder visionary.

Joanna definitely, although is a founder, identifies as the integrator more so in terms of day to day operations, making sure that the details are [00:05:00] taken care of. And I think big picture vision. And so it can be really challenging with the personality type that is more inclined to like my personality type, which is thinking, front facing person who shows up with character, like wanting to drive the culture, wanting to think forward in terms of, Oh, we're going to do this.

And we're going to do this and we're going to do this. And I do think that within organizations, we have to be careful because even though you are the founder and the visionary, it doesn't mean that the world revolves around that person. And oftentimes it becomes, and I've seen this too, with founders that are also personal brands, you know, it's.

It's a little bit different if you have a physical product business, because it's more about the product and about the consumers and how they respond to the product. But when you have personal brands that are also being built alongside whatever the product or program is, say in the digital space, that founder, that visionary is going to want to take over a little bit.

And then it does become a little bit more about them. And that can be really challenging and navigating that, [00:06:00] especially when that person is the Your boss, or that person is driving the ship. I think that we see that in terms of personalities, in terms of how people show up in their personal brands.

And it's something that we're going to chat about today and how to kind of guard against as either a founder and a personal brand of your own, or if you're working with or supporting in some way, other founders. So if you're a founder, Transcribed by https: otter. ai Personal brands, coaches, and creators, you might have to deal with those energies at some point.

And how do you work with them positively while motivating them forward and still supporting the business and the mission and the vision as a whole? So thank you for sharing the story. Completely understand the people that we're going to talk about today are real people. We're not going to point out who they are.

We're not trying to cut anyone down. We're just talking about examples. let's go ahead and dive into it. You mentioned this term cult leader. Can you explain that to me and how not to be one?

Jessica Noon: So I use it a [00:07:00] little bit facetiously, but I think all of us, either we have experienced this ourselves or we know someone who has been in one of those cult of personality type businesses where there is the business has built around a person and the larger it gets, the more tightly that person holds to every detail of the business. And so you could be at the very, you know, I hate this term, but like the lower levels of the business and still the founder is in every single detail a founder who has really not let go of anything in the business that those are businesses that are really vulnerable to becoming these like personality. Organizations. It's okay to have a personal brand. It's absolutely necessary. And it's also completely normal, especially for people like coaches, course creators, for a person to be the top of the [00:08:00] business there is a very special magic that founders bring to the table. And that's always true.

And that's a good thing. And the trouble starts when becomes it. more about control than about

Joanna Newton: 100%. And there's, there's this startup culture that I think exists when it, when a founder create something from scratch and they're all about the mission and they're really pushing some sort of idea or agenda forward, making it feel like a family and unit of people working together likely gets them to have people work harder than They're getting paid for, And it benefits them. It can push projects forward. When you think of like Silicon Valley startups, you think of a bunch of coders getting paid nothing to work 24 seven in a garage, right? Like that is like kind of this [00:09:00] archetype of a startup that happens and sometimes That sort of you need that kind of personality that gets people to buy in and go for it and it can get you started, but you can't really scale that like you could get people to buy in and be there for you for maybe six months, but then that doesn't scale long term because people will leave people will be unhappy. It will become like a toxic culture I kind of think of like the startup. Steve Jobs and you think of these, you know, big name people that just get people to rally all together, get people to work really hard, but they typically at some point need to let go of those day to day operations. You know, still be that visionary, that name, but someone else is actually handling the the day to day in a way that is healthy, that is not toxic, that is following labor laws, that is doing, doing those things because it's so easy founders to get off track. [00:10:00] And part of the reason is have an idea and they probably have a fantastic visionary type of idea, but they're not always business people.

not They're not marketers. They're not operators. They're not necessarily aware of like business laws and procedures, but I think it's easy for them to think they, they are, and not really connect the two that having the idea, initiating the idea, getting that initial sale, that initial success is not the same as scaling a business.

Like they're two different things. 

Jessica Noon: You hit the nail on the head, I think, when you said that. That, that's exactly what I was thinking as you were talking. It was what got you to Let's say hire your first team member. It's not the same thing as The success factors that are going to take your business a business to a company, very likely that the same processes are going to become they're not scalable as you say They're going to become very heavy they were built for you when you were like, you know One person, [00:11:00] or even when you were five people, things that made you successful at those levels are not the same as when you grow to 30, if that's your goal, or 1000. and I've seen. That all across the spectrum, um, over the last 17 years, I've worked for companies of all sizes and sometimes helps them to grow through these initial culture stages. And that's the main thing you, summed it up perfectly. It's really about the ability to let go, which is counterintuitive. When you're the magic.

Michelle Pualani: This is a really important distinction for me when it comes to business. And I believe more and more in this as I learn and grow and evolve and see others and experience is there's a little bit of a perspective that two things here is that when someone says like, my business is my baby, or like I am my business and the business does not happen or work without me.

And on one hand you have a personal brand where obviously your face is what you're marketing How you show up, your character, like people buy into you in a [00:12:00] big sense. But at the same time, when you affiliate the business as either part of you or something that you care about, you know, your child to some degree, there's no distinction and separation.

And I really think it's so important to distinguish between this is me. I am Michelle. I am a human being. I am a person. I have value. Independent of all of these other things. And then this is my business and this is a structure and it has a model and there is pricing and there is strategy and there is marketing and there's operations and there's accounting and there's taxes and there are team members and there's growth and scale and there's everything that you're building within your business.

And I think it's important to distinguish between the two. So often with personal brands, or if you are a service provider, you're a coach, you're actually helping people with what you know, That can be really difficult to distinguish against, and that's one of the things that we talk about on this podcast that I think is so important, especially as you're building a business, especially as you're getting things going, is from the get go.

See it [00:13:00] as its own entity. See it as its own business structure. And you maybe the founder, you may be the creator, you may be the face of the entire brand. But it's still separate from you. And that can really lead to the positive things that we want to see within a company. When you have growth, when you have scale, when you have team members that need to move forward and do the things that you can't do anymore, because you're always going to be the thing that gets in the way from your growth.

So when it comes to some of the things that you've mentioned, like. You know, the visionary stepping in as a founder, looking over your shoulder, being a part of everything. How would you advise someone to kind of separate out being that visionary, being that personal brand, but not micromanaging, not trying to control every little piece of the day to day operations? 

Jessica Noon: It's a great question. And it's one of the hardest things to master actually, when you start bringing on more people into your world, most founders don't realize you might be. your business might be you, [00:14:00] but you are not just your business. That's not all you are and disappearing into your business is not a formula for success.

It's just a formula for disappearing. And when you have disappeared into your business, it's usually because you haven't taken the time as you add people to not just get things off your plate, but to actually operationalize. Okay, why does this work? Not just how it works. This is an important distinction. Most founders. Focus only on the how and you can playbook pretty much anything, many founders for their first couple of hires are usually super disappointed because the person isn't doing it how they would even, even though they've given them a playbook and they've tried to train them and it's just not working.

And sometimes that's true. There's a lot of factors that go into why some hires don't work out, but. A lot of times they haven't just engineered this success [00:15:00] formula. it's like diving into your own brain and understanding the success factors and the needle movers and why it works when you do it and maybe not when someone else does.

What is the magic? it's not actually magic. There is something. Some engineering to it that most of us just develop because we try stuff and then something works and then we're like, great, that thing worked. Let's do that thing again. Let me replicate myself, So, uh, you know, understanding those success factors and really why they work is probably the first step. And also, what are you going to, once you give a task away, are you going to replace it with? That also comes back to, to knowing what the needle movers are and why they're needle movers.

Joanna Newton: That just makes me think about how self aware founders need to be.

Jessica Noon: Yeah.

Joanna Newton: And when you think about the kind of people who tend to like go found businesses and start businesses, they're likely people who struggled like with a boss [00:16:00] in with someone telling them what to do, right? Like someone who, you know, And I'm this kind of person, like when a company is saying this is the most efficient way to do it, this is the process, I always like this process sucks.

I can make one so much better. Like the way you're doing this is stupid and I don't want to do it, right? And that kind of attitude, have that towards your team, that can be really, really hard. Now, one thing that I, That I'd say made the transition from employee to founder not so hard for me is I, as an employee, I always was much harder on the people above me or laterally for me than people below me. And again, I don't like this term, but like below me on the hierarchy. So if someone was like lateral to me or my superior, I was much more critical of their work, their processes, their output those under me. I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt and I tend to hold the people above me accountable.

It's just like my nature and how I [00:17:00] am. That actually lent itself really well for me with moving to a founder level because I hold myself to a standard that I don't necessarily expect of my team. I recognize they have a role to play. I want them to take their job seriously. I want them to do a good job, but I don't expect them to be me. And I'm sure there are plenty of blind spots I have as a founder, by the way. This happens to just not be one of them, but I think as founders, we have to be super self aware because if we want to grow, we have to kind of know our strengths, our weaknesses. We need to. Be aware of that so that we don't let our limitations become our team's limitations. and you know, what's interesting, I think that first hire is so important, right, for a founder How to set an employee up for success so important to think through. Do you have any thoughts on that? Like that first hire, hiring a team, it's such a pivotal role for a founder. What can founders [00:18:00] do to make sure when they bring someone on that they're set up for success from the beginning and they don't have this tendency to hover, to micromanage, like how do they do that? 

Jessica Noon: I acknowledge it. This is really hard when it's yours. Even if you have corporate management experience, is always so much harder when you're a founder because you kind of have to let go of something that you created. You mentioned self awareness and I think it's really, really important before you start writing a job description adjust your own expectations. I heard someone else say recently, it's, that they had to learn the hard way that. want someone who cares about the business like they do, and you can get somebody who cares about the business and you can teach them why the business is valuable and how to make an impact. You can teach some of it, but you You can never find someone who cares about a business that you [00:19:00] made the way that you do and do everything the way that you would do it. There has to be space for people to bring in their own ideas and that requires you to challenge yourself, to challenge what might be a habit in favor of Of innovation of bringing on someone with a brain that's different than yours and allowing it to add to the process or to refine a process. So yes you should playbook yes you should definitely document understand your your needle movers really do the work ahead of time to envision how not just this list of tasks. But how this function that you're adding to your business could evolve. And that allows you to open your mind up a little bit what you are doing now, that is working now really design something new and different.

This is the benefit of being an entrepreneur and leading an entrepreneurial business is [00:20:00] that you get to redefine the game. And the best way to do that is to add more brains that are different than yours.

Michelle Pualani: I think it's the best thing when you are not the smartest person in the room. Really you should be hiring and looking for complimentary skill sets. And that's such an important tool to utilize and be aware of as a founder, as a business owner. In general, you know, thinking about, I think one of the things we've talked about on the podcast before in other episodes is Gallup StrengthsFinder.

It's one of my favorite tools when it comes to working skill sets and analyzing team members and seeing where they really excel. Thinking of Take the Leap, the book, in terms of your four zones of Incompetence, competence, excellence, and genius and really working. I think the most important thing as a founder and a visionary is working with your team members to empower them to be the best in their role so that they're satisfied, so they get what they're doing, so that they excel at what they're doing, and you can really thrive and grow.

[00:21:00] And that's where the opportunity of scale. Make so much sense. So there's a lot to consider when it comes to teams as the founder and visionary. There's a lot to consider in terms of people and how you engage with them. Now I'll tell a little story in terms of when I worked with a founder. She did not have physical products.

She was more in line with digital products and programs. And she was very big in the personal development and wellness space. And when I started working with her, I was so inspired and motivated and like looking forward to All that she brought to that founder and visionary role. And unfortunately was sorely disappointed when it seemed like front facing, she had this beautiful persona and kind and compassionate, but the way that she navigated teams was terrible.

Like we did a whole like value assessment and she didn't align with a lot of the values that she wanted to represent in the company. And I worked with, you know, 13 other team members or so who didn't feel like she aligned with them. And it was really challenging because. There [00:22:00] was a lack of continuity with how she wanted her brand to present to the world, but then how she treated her contractors, her team members, and the people that she was working with.

And so it felt difficult for us to show up in the best way that we could in order to fulfill on the work that we were doing when we weren't getting paid. the treatment that we felt like her personal brand was trying to bring to the world. I think there's a lot for us to think about in how we navigate our outward personas, but then also on the back end, treat people.

And you hear stories sometimes about it all the time about Oh, that person is amazing. They're wonderful. But then they speak to an assistant or they speak to someone really poorly. And it just is, it's kind of surprising. So when it comes to founders and visionaries, I think it's important to keep in mind that they have the big vision.

They have the big picture. But one of the challenges that I found, not just with the treatment of this founder, was that they. They constantly wanted to go from idea to idea, or they [00:23:00] had products and programs that we were trying to scale, to grow, to sell, but then they wanted to do this thing or, Hey, let's try this, or, Hey, let's do this.

And I know that I'm guilty of that as a founder as well, is kind of thinking like, Oh, I want to go from idea to idea or concept to concept. I want to create this new thing. We haven't really fully leveraged this other thing. But can we just pivot and do this other thing? And I know that Joanna talks about this as well, is that it can kind of cause whiplash within the company.

So, for those of us who identify as kind of like the scattered founder visionary types where we want to do all these different things all at the same time, or if we're working with them, how do you How do you manage that? How do you kind of plan for it and how do you navigate the ideas supporting them while also doing it a little bit more strategically so that you focus on the scale, the marketing, and then pivot when it's the right time.

Jessica Noon: I love this. I am an idea person and I already know that this is something that I'm going to have to work on because I have worked for a lot of other idea people and [00:24:00] idea management. This is something that there's this doesn't exist. I don't think in any leadership program that's out there. Nobody talks about this idea management is ideas are one of the most motivational factors of working in a founder led business and ideas. if they're not managed well, one of the things that will burn out your people and erode your performance and your impact. So how do you do it? I mean, it's, I love what you said about values as well, but values are not supposed to be just part of your marketing. They have to be part of the organization works. values are how you prioritize values are how you make decisions they are tangible they are real and their decision factors it's part of what i said before about the needle movers really understanding them how what you value what actions are rewarded what decisions are supported in the [00:25:00] organization and. That has to supersede an idea being new. It's so easy to fall down into shiny object syndrome, as I've heard it termed. It's so easy to chase this new idea because we want to be innovative, but actual innovation we, we're going to throw out what we're doing then add this new thing on. It's often a recipe for burnout for you too, as a founder. So if we're always doing the new things, what are we keeping from before? And how do we evaluate a new idea to see if it's really worth people dropping other things that could be the core of the business, because that's what ends up happening. People want. As a founder, you have a lot of power and your ideas have a lot of power and people are eager to support you.

If you've built a great team, they're going to be excited to [00:26:00] run with anything that you think is a good idea. They trust you. it's your responsibility to filter your ideas through this framework of, is this a needle mover? is this very values aligned? Is this going to change the game? So my, our business is unrecognizable or is it a helpful improvement?

That's going to help us to serve our clients better. In some respects, only you can go through this process as a founder. You have to be really honest with yourself and to avoid chasing just every new thing. Really thinking about the whole strategy think beyond next quarter think long term how is this idea going to add to the long term vision and strategy and that's something that not many founders are trained to do because in the beginning it's it's so there's so much energy and there you know new things are good things and they probably made you better But as you scale, scaling means [00:27:00] refining that. Scaling means thinking way longer term towards how you want your business to evolve. then to add things on that make sense for that vision.

Joanna Newton: Really good points. And I think, you know, we've talked about how traditionally founders tend to be that like visionary archetype and idea person throwing things out. If you are a visionary founder, there's a lot of value with that. There's a lot of value in new ideas. But if you're not able to your ideas yourself and you just throw them out to your team, depending on On who they are and their skill set, they may have zero pushback, go for it, run with it. And like you said, you have that whiplash products from one place to another place, building things, spending money on things that you never use. so I think if you're that visionary founder type, you have that self awareness, you know, I just throw out ideas. You can try to get good at [00:28:00] idea management by yourself, right?

Think through what's going to change, what this idea change impacts the rest of the business and what that is mapping out to be. or you can find someone to help you with that, that you trust and that you, Actually will empower to be that person for you. And I think that's really important here, because if you bring someone on to help you with that, that can be a very contentious relationship, right?

Like having someone who has to be your no person. That's tough. I've been in that role at companies. It's a hard role to be in. And actually being that person that says, no, one thing that works out really well, myself and my, my co founder, he's definitely like that visionary idea. Person is going to run with things.

And I'm very much that style of person who can kind of come in, map out the implications and all of that. And we really trust each other and we really work on it together. And, you know, there's a shift we're going to be making in our business over the next. year and, [00:29:00] um, you know, I think it's an important shift for us now, you know, he'll come on.

He has this idea might want it to happen right away. And then I say, like, okay, this is a great idea. I agree. This is a great idea. This is our process for getting to point A and point B. I could be, you know, there is a downside to, to, I think, being that more practical integrator style of leader and things that we can learn from those visionary types. could say, Nope, we decided we're doing this way. It's making us money. We're staying that way. I could like be stubborn in the opposite direction or say, Oh, we can't do that. It will take us three years to get there, right? Like I could lean in that opposite direction, but those two energies and those two personalities working together and kind of listening to each other, him may be pushing on me being too slow to change me, pushing on him to be too quick to change. Actually makes that change happen and probably the right way. so having that, ebb and flow of energies, [00:30:00] I think is actually really, really important. But the visionary style leader has to be self aware enough to say, I know this is too far. And that more integrator operation style leader has to say, I know I need someone to push me than I would go for it to work and whether you're finding a co, if you're that visionary type, whether you're finding a co founder or finding an employee to do that, you have to trust and that person and that person has to trust you for that relationship to, to work and push you outside of that.

Jessica Noon: This makes me think of a story that happened not to me, but to a friend of mine. Um, this person got, let go from a founder led business the founder was always throwing new ideas at my friend and My friend was super supportive and super passionate, thinks they can do it all and didn't see this as a problem.

[00:31:00] Didn't know to say no, thought, well, the founder has a priority. This is the priority now. But in the end, got let go because of quote unquote performance because because The founder had added so many things that it would have taken I don't remember the number but it was something like an extra month in the year to accomplish both that core list also the new ideas in the new priorities that were added and you know in the end the conversation was sort of. Well, why didn't you flag that this was a problem? Well, they had no concept that this was a problem. This was supposed to be the founder was leading the vision. And so I guess my point is, if there's also an opportunity cost, if you're constantly adding, adding, adding without looking at, well, what are we supposed to do with the things that we were already supposed to do?

Do we stop? Do we delay them? Do we? change the deadlines? Don't just assume. [00:32:00] I think this would be my advice, too, if you're in a founder led business or working for a founder right now. It's really let them know, hey, here's the opportunity cost. I just want to make sure that this is in line with your thoughts, right?

This is, this is the new date for this deliverable I was working on. If we add this here, is this, which one should be the priority, right? And, and allow them to, Allow them to make a decision with, with more information, but then also if you are a founder, go through this process first, because your team isn't going to have the same lens that you have to the importance of this, the priority of this, whether or not it can take three months so we can get done with our original deadlines first. so it's really important and it really will save you from losing. Great people who are really dedicated to the business and do you care about it? And you know you you can save yourself from thinking everything is bad performance when it's really just Maybe stuff isn't clear. [00:33:00] Maybe your priorities aren't clear.

Maybe you haven't engineered them. you haven't engineered how works, how it's aligned to the vision. you're really responsible as the founder to communicate those things and to consider what, the cost could be. 

Michelle Pualani: there are a lot of challenges as a founder, as a personal brand and how you're showing up running your organization, being the business owner. It's a lot of pressure. It can feel stressful and you might have all these wonderful ideas,

and implementing those can be a struggle. So it's important to consider the strategy. It's important to consider the expense. It's important to consider how it's going to affect you and affect your business. If you're Feeling if that start stop things aren't kind of tractioning. It might be because there's too many pivots.

You're implementing too many ideas. If you're having trouble with your team, it might be your leadership. And so I think, to kind of start to wrap up this conversation when we have that idea, like, Founders can really suck or they're challenging to work with, or they're difficult. There's a lot of self awareness and ownership that has to come from the [00:34:00] creator, the founder, the business owner that says, okay, how can we shift?

How can we change this? How can we work with people differently? How can we set the strategy differently? How can we think forward an intentional way that is going to lead us toward where we want to go. Cause a lot of times it will, will derail our goals. It will derail our growth and our scale.

And that's what we're looking to do and our impact. If we're looking to impact and influence, we can get distracted with. small, menial things, and we're limiting the amount of influence and impacts that we can have. So Jessica, thank you so much for joining us today and contributing to this conversation.

I think there's a lot that we can learn as founders and especially a lot of times as coaches and creators, we're guiding other founders. We're working with them. We're moving them forward in their goals, their hopes, and their dreams. So if someone wanted to get in touch with you, where can they find you?

Jessica Noon: Sure. I am on Instagram as daybreak underscore Jess, and you can find me on LinkedIn at the link in the show notes.

Joanna Newton: Thank you so much for talking with us today. And if you listened to this [00:35:00] episode and you liked it and met something to you, please share it with a fellow founder to give them some advice on how not to be a founder. That sucks to work with and make sure you, Subscribe, connected.

We can't wait to share the next episode with you.