Overcoming Ageism & Perfectionism in Business: Lessons from Netflix Shows ‘Younger’ & ‘Running Point’

We’re tackling the unspoken rules women face—straight from the storylines of Younger and Running Point on Netflix. Michelle and Joanna dive into the double standards around age, credibility, and perfectionism that hold women to impossible standards while men get more room to stumble and grow.

Time Stamps:

02:06 Deep Dive into 'Younger'

04:16 Ageism in the Workplace

07:37 Exploring 'Running Point'

09:30 Women in Sports and Media

09:57 Age Bias and Internal Narratives

16:36 Double Standards and Perfectionism

22:00 Appearance and Credibility

28:46 Burden of Proof and Opportunity Trajectories

34:50 Mindset and Limiting Beliefs

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Transcript

Episode 087: Age & Perfectionism
===

Michelle Pualani: [00:00:00] And I think age can be a limiting factor when we go back to those stories that I mentioned, right? Am I too an experienced, am I too young for this? Am I too old for this? Is this a good representation of me with the clothes that I'm wearing, with the makeup that I've got on? And so kind of starting to find that internal narrative for yourself and deciding how you feel about your age and what that means.

Accepting and owning the age that you are and knowing that your age does not affect your experience, it does not affect your authority, it does not affect your ability to pitch. Be successful, put yourself out there in any way.


Welcome back to the Her First podcast. Today we're talking about two television shows that have been rather popular on Netflix recently, specifically younger and Running Point. Our conversation today is gonna center around ageism that women experience in business and life, [00:01:00] and the expectation of perfectionism when it comes to your work, how you're showing up your appearance and everything, and kind of how to manage and navigate that as a woman in business, as someone who maybe shows up on camera as someone who's putting themselves out into the world.

Or looking for more leadership opportunities, and we'll talk about the implications of the show, how things kind of played out, and what the main characters were able to do in response and how they were able to be successful in spite of those assumptions, in spite of what we deal with as women in business. 

Hi, I'm Michelle Houston, founder of To Be Honest Beverage Company, a functional spirit alternative, and coach and mentor for where personal development meets personal branding.

Joanna Newton: I am Joanna Newton. I'm the co-founder of Millennial Marketer and Agency that helps creators build their own online digital businesses.

Michelle Pualani: So let's talk a little background on the shows. Maybe you've seen it, maybe you haven't. I binge watched both of them recently. No judgment. Sometimes I can't sleep. Sometimes I just need a little bit of time off. And Netflix recently [00:02:00] has been, I. The relaxation and the brain break that I need. Healthiest, maybe not, but no judgment zone here.

So firstly, let's talk a little bit about the background of younger.

So as a TV series, it's a seven season show. It was actually released originally in 2013, but it is now on Netflix and has become a bit more popular. I feel like, again, whenever you create an audience, this is a great example, as you're listening of, if you have an audience of. People, captive viewers, people who are paying attention to you, you can put things in front of them and it will be successful, right?

Younger was released a long time ago. I didn't even know when it was released or that it happened. Even though Hillary Duff plays one of the main characters as well as Sutton Foster, the main character, Eliza Miller, now because it's on Netflix and being promoted so much more attention, so much more conversation, so much more traction.

So keep that in mind. Build your audience. Get that attention now back to younger. So it's a TV series where a divorced New Jersey housewife has been out of the [00:03:00] publishing industry for about 15 years in order to raise her daughter. And after leaving her husband, because he has issues with gambling and they had to file bankruptcy, she moves into the city and has to get a job in New York.

As a 40-year-old woman, she's going on all these interviews and no one will hire her because she's been out of the industry for so long and ultimately because of her age. So her very good friend proposes that she actually pretends to be 26 and applies to the jobs. Lo and behold, she gets hired at empirical publishing then of course her life progresses as having to kind of one live these dual lives of mother, 40-year-old divorcee like That whole thing. And then 26-year-old assistant at a publishing company based in Manhattan. So everything evolves from there. Her personal relationships, her friendships, and she kinda gets ingrained into what it is that she's doing, but she faces this issue of one ageism in the workplace. Two, how she deals with and manages looks and appearance, [00:04:00] needing to be 26 in the face of everything, as well as attuned to the trends and everything that's happening, which is absolutely hilarious.

Everything kind of unravels over time. Of course, there are cracks in the facade and things come out and there are issues of course, that progress in that way. I won't spoil anything. You can watch the show, but we'll chat a little bit about that ageism in the workplace and how in business you can kind of combat some of these things that our main characters dealt with.

Joanna Newton: I think aging can be challenging for women and getting jobs and deals and all of that when you're older can be challenging as a woman, I'm in, I'm in my last year of my forties right now. I just turned 39, not my, my last year in my forties. Oh my, I mean, last year in my thirties I would look really good if I was 49 for a 49-year-old. But I, you know, I'm in my last year of my thirties and I definitely, especially when I first became an entrepreneur, felt like I needed [00:05:00] to fake being younger. I am to get deals, you know, be in this space, be like a techie person that, people wanna work with. I will tell you, like no one asks me my age.

I think people do assume I'm younger than I am. I do make sure I have a nice light for giving light on my face to help with that, but. I feel that pressure to stay young and stay youthful, to stay relevant, and I'm sure we'll unpack that more as we go through the episode. I saw the show, I loved it and it's, funny to watch someone navigate those really real life situations.

I think women. really have this like shelf life, it feels like sometimes of you know, mid twenties to early thirties. And there is actually data that looks at women's wages and we actually track with men's wages until we hit our like childbearing years, whether you have a child or not. So there's actually data to support the fact that women, when they reach a certain age, they start.

Plateauing in their career. progress where men [00:06:00] continue to grow. So we're combating real issues here. It's a funny show. It's entertaining, but there's like real issues here that we face in society.

Michelle Pualani: So before I give you the lowdown on Running Point, the other show that's gonna help kind of underscore our themes for today. We are gonna talk about some of the concepts that. I feel like can be pulled out of the show and how it can be relevant to us as creators, as business owners, as essentially women in the workforce.

Even if you're not at a corporate entity or you don't work for someone else, we are helping establish what that workforce looks like. So I think it's important to discuss. So some of those key themes that we'll be talking about today are age bias for women and how the expectations of age are set upon us, especially in terms of how we.

Relate and are credible to what's happening in a pop culture or what's happening digitally at the time of perfectionism and double standards for expectations of women in order to perform and deliver. We're talking appearance and [00:07:00] credibility, so the way in which women are expected to appear and how we're perceived to be credible or not based on our appearance, the burden of having to prove ourselves as opposed to assumed authority and assumed trust, which men I feel like.

Tend to have, we've got male versus female opportunity trajectories and what that looks like for the potential of you moving forward in what it is that you're doing. And then we'll kind of close out with the role of pop culture and how that breeds self-doubt and fears that creates limitations on us in our businesses and in what we pitch, what we propose, what we reach for in terms of opportunities.

So. Running Point. That's another show that kind of underscores this conversation. Isla Gordon played by Kate Hudson is the daughter of essentially a basketball family. Her dad was the president and owner of the LA Waves, a huge and predominant basketball company.

Now, there are brothers and sons that ultimately have important roles within the [00:08:00] company, and she's kind of relegated to the quote unquote charities after she lives. This like party lifestyle is not well represented in the media and is kind of seen as like the bimbo. Now, she loves basketball, she. Pays attention to all of the stats.

And she's always kind of tried to have her voice be heard, but it's always been oh, you're the woman. So what you have to say in sports really isn't important. that shows up in so many industries that again, the assumed. The presumption is that women don't know what they're talking about, so she faces a lot of scrutiny due to her age, her gender, the fact that she's even blonde.

The fact that she comes from a privileged background and therefore is wealthy and can't know what she's talking about because she's just been given everything her entire life. ultimately the show is about her proving herself and actually turning the team around because of what she was handed. So that's kind of a look at Running Point Isla Gordon, played by Kate Hudson and what that sort of story looks like that we'll be chatting about today. I.

Joanna Newton: I haven't [00:09:00] seen that show yet. I'll have to put it on my list. I actually just started, my husband and I just started watching Zena, the Warrior Princess. It's on Amazon and I think we're canceling our Amazon membership. It renews in May, so I'm like, oh my gosh, we need to like watch this. 

Michelle Pualani: I love that the choice was Zena Warrior Princess. You're like, okay, we've gotta watch all of the important things. This is, this is the one.

Joanna Newton: Well, I think I have to watch it and we'll have to do an episode on it and talk about Xena. It's actually, so far I've been very feminist. It's been enjoyable to watch. So, you know, but it, it's such a. Interesting look, because I think women in sports, there's already stigma. She is, you know, there are sons, there's all of this stuff and, and women kind of can get pigeonholed into, in a corporate entity, in a family entity of what role they fill.

when you take on a new role, there's always that, stigma, that back and forth, that sort of difficulty coming into that place. And so I'm sure it's really fascinating to watch.

Michelle Pualani: So the first theme, we're gonna talk about a little bit of this [00:10:00] age bias. You may have experienced this before. I know that as a woman, it's often internal. A lot of times the narrative for me, like as I start to get wrinkles, am I okay to show up on camera? am I too inexperienced at age 25 to create a successful business?

Am I at age 40 to. Old to even get started, and so this conversation of age very frequently comes up for women. I am 35 and I should be at this place already. I am supposed to have children by now. I'm supposed to have a house, I'm supposed to have a partner. Like all of these things are dictated and determined by this idea and concept of age that is supposed to push us into or steer us away from opportunities as we move throughout our lives.

So from our stories, Liza, being that 40-year-old woman has to pretend to be 26 in order to even get the opportunity, get the job in the first place in order to be successful, whereas men are seen in a [00:11:00] totally and completely different light. Right. Their age isn't questioned as much. If they're a little bit older, we assume they're more experienced.

If women are a little bit older, we maybe assume that they're washed up. Now Isla is constantly referred to in the story as already being too old. She's seen as too old, but she is seen as inexperienced, even though her age would say otherwise. If you saw a man in that role at that age, you would think, oh, he's got experience, life experience. We can trust him. He has authority, one of the things I think we have to do is first internally combat this narrative and decide that age is not going to determine the opportunities that we take or how we present ourselves. There are so many ways we can go about content. Personal brand marketing, sales, business creation, pitching for speeching, pitching for podcasts, pitching for all of these things.

And I think age can be a limiting [00:12:00] factor when we go back to those stories that I mentioned, right? Am I too an experienced, am I too young for this? Am I too old for this? Is this a good representation of me with the clothes that I'm wearing, with the makeup that I've got on? And so kind of starting to find that internal narrative for yourself and deciding how you feel about your age and what that means.

Accepting and owning the age that you are and knowing that your age does not affect your experience, it does not affect your authority, it does not affect your ability to pitch. Be successful, put yourself out there in any way. So I want us to kind of get rid of the notion of age in this thought experiment for you to decide independent of my age, how do I feel about myself.

What does this mean for me? Where am I at and am I okay with the way that I'm presenting myself independent of that age so that I don't have to worry about it being a limiting factor? I.

Joanna Newton: And of course men have their own sort of biases that they go up against in the workplace, in the world, and all of that. [00:13:00] But today we're, we're talking about women, right? And what, what we face. And I feel like there's so much of the world. You're right, Michelle, that is saying, you know, as a 22-year-old woman, well you don't have enough experience for this. But a 22 year, year old man or boy as we'll call him, would probably not get that sort of reaction if a 22-year-old boy was going out for that role. They probably say, wow, he's ambitious, Not inexperienced. He's ambitious. He's going for it. Let's give him this opportunity. that woman, it's like, well, when she's a little more experienced, we'll give her that opportunity. Now on, on that same end, you hit. 35 even. And it's like, hmm, I don't know if she's, she's too old for this. She's not gonna be up with the technology. She's not gonna be up with what's needed. She's gonna be distracted by her kids and her family, and unable to fulfill this role. So if you're kind of taught that narrative your whole life as a woman in the corporate world trying to own a business or any of those things, you're gonna say, well, I have this tiny window. I am from [00:14:00] 25 to 35 to figure it out. if I'm not where I wanna be when I'm 35, well I'm done. That's it. I'll tell you, I kind of felt that way, but for me, I feel like my good career years really didn't start till I was 35. And I've spent the past four years really growing and really changing and really working on my mindset.

I feel like I'm at a point when I get on a discovery call or I'm pitching myself or any of those things, I don't even think anybody thinks about my age or my gender. They just think, wow, she's talented. She knows what she's doing. I have to work with her. And so as much as bias is real, I. You can out talent it and you can make it work for you like it is possible.

So it's good to be aware of the existence of it, but you also have to change your mindset to say, it actually doesn't matter how old I am. It doesn't matter how little or how much experience, any of those things. I can do this and this is my plan to do it in whatever way that is. we have to change our mindsets first. then I think as we change our [00:15:00] mindsets, the people that work with us and that we come across start to also change their mindset, at least about you. And maybe you'll help them realize, maybe, hopefully, hopefully in life. I help people realize that 40-year-old women can be really great business owners. let's hope that I can do that. That'd be really cool. But at least I'm changing that perception about me, right? At least I can do that for myself.

Michelle Pualani: it's such a great reminder that we cannot control or change necessarily our external circumstances all the time. We talk a lot about themes and narratives, popular culture and women, high achieving women in different industries, and the animosity that we face, the experiences that we face, the narratives, the culture that we face.

All of the themes and concepts that we pull out. But that doesn't mean that you need to be dictated and determined by them. And I think that's what we're constantly trying to encourage for you is that let's recognize that this is a thing. Let's work to try to change that narrative. We just had a great episode about Reese Witherspoon and how [00:16:00] she's changing the narrative about women's voices in media, pop culture and entertainment.

So go back and listen to that, but also. What do we get to be in charge of? That's our internal narrative. That's our own thoughts. That's the way that we see ourselves. Those are our belief systems. And when you recognize that you are in full control and have the autonomy to make those decisions and determine that for yourself, that's when everything else doesn't matter, falls away.

They can think what they think, they can feel what they feel, and you're still gonna pave your path. You're still gonna charge forward, and you're still gonna carve out the opportunity for you. That makes sense. So perfect conversation around the double standards and the perfectionism that we feel like women are held to.

I forget the exact statistics and it has more to do with employment, but men will see a job say they, actually have experience in 20 to 30% of it they'll apply. Women will look for about 80% of what the job requirements are in terms of their experience before they apply. So that's a self-imposed [00:17:00] limitation that we are gonna try to.

Break free from, this idea and concept of perfectionism is that women are typically held to a higher standard. So we are expecting them to move forward and progress without any issues, without any missteps, without any mis. Stakes. Oftentimes men from a double standards perspective are able to get into a CEO position, make some key mistakes, waffle around a little bit, and that's just them, quote unquote getting their sea legs or getting themselves situated.

It's part of the process. I a and Liza both face instances of. Dealing with those mistakes and being judged and criticized so much more harshly and having that scrutiny. But what is important is that they don't quit. They don't shy away from it. They lean into it. They identify and acknowledge that they made mistakes, but then they figure out how to solve that problem, how to move forward, how to keep going.

that's an important thing for us to learn, that if we do deal with. Troll comments. If we do deal with an upset customer, if we present on [00:18:00] stage and maybe we missed a thing or two, or our PowerPoint wasn't working, we identify and acknowledge that, that that's okay. Mistakes are a part of the process.

Failures are a part of the process and a part of our story, and that we can keep moving forward anyway. We have the resilience, the grit to continue to progress, and you're gonna keep going in spite of those things.

Joanna Newton: Yeah. And this double standard, is real and it's something that I really experienced in the corporate world when I was there there's reality and then there's our mindset and we have to, we have to have our mindset work against reality. But there is a reality that the men I've worked with in the corporate world, I. We were given so much more le leniency than the women, you know what I mean? Them forgetting to do something or dropping the ball on something, or needing to be followed up with three times, four times, five times to do something was always forgiven. And I always thought in the back of my head, what if I did that? What if I just didn't answer my emails for three days? What if I just like [00:19:00] forgot to do things like what would happen? what would happen to me? And I thought about in the corporate office, I worked my ass off like day in, day out, did as much as I could and could only inch my way forward. In terms of, levels in a company and salary and all of that. Because I was working away. While these other people were getting so much leniency for what they did, not showing up to meetings, not being present, not getting their work done, was somehow always excused just for some reason We excuse the behavior of men and, and the truth is, in the corporate world, women end up working twice as hard to kind of cover for it.

And I saw this and I'm sure, I'm sure there are exceptions, and I'm sure there are women who aren't great to work with and all of those things. But as a general rule, I saw that double standard. I think there was a time in my life where I was like. There's a double standard. It sucks. I'm never gonna get ahead because of X, Y, Z, right?

We can like say while it's here, it sucks. I [00:20:00] can't get through it. Or we can pick ourselves up, know, work twice as hard and make our own companies so we can get paid what we're worth, right? Like we can just like, make our own way and make it happen. And then be a different kind of business owner.

For, for our own selves and, and create that so that need for that perfectionism and that feeling, it's there, At the same time, we don't have to let ourselves get encompassed by it. Because what if I did in my last corporate job, I started saying no to things. I started not responding to emails that I thought were stupid and unimportant. I started being like, you know what? Let me just not follow up with people three times. If they're not doing their job, I'm just gonna move on without them. Like I started to say like, what would a man do in this situation? And I did that. And the truth is. I got promoted more. So like there is something about us changing our mindset, being aware that this is real, but then how can I break the mold and not just keep doing the things that get me the same result and change the [00:21:00] narrative?

What's what's going on in my head and get better results.

Michelle Pualani: Yeah. The thing that I really pull away from that is that sometimes you have to be kind of confident in your choices or the way that you're working and others will believe in you. Like I think that the reason sometimes that men get so much assumed, trust, assumed authority and get away with things more often is because they don't.

Care, like they just move through it, they do it, and then they move on and they keep working or they do this thing, whereas women, it becomes like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. Very apologetic. I should have done this differently. People pleasing, like all of that kind of comes out. They're very unsure. There's a lot of self doubt and that is not seen as a strong leadership quality, so.

You know, shifting it to be a little bit more confident and have belief in what you're doing. Again, knowing that you can make those missteps, have those failures, but maybe thinking a little bit more like a man can sometimes be helpful as an exercise [00:22:00] perhaps. So one of the other things in terms of themes that we pull out of these shows and that women really deal with is appearance and credibility.

One quick story from the younger show is there's actually a billionaire female character who ends up doing the publishing of the book through Empirical, and then she runs for a political candidacy position. in the polls, apparently wearing glasses. Makes her more relatable and seem and appear to be more intelligent as opposed to being, you know, beautiful pretty and therefore unqualified.

And I hate to say it, but we are judgmental. We are perception based. Animals, humans, like we operate off of how we see things and there is a certain perception of how you're presenting yourself. this is something that I am hoping to kind of like fight against in my own small way, is that I think a lot of times female founders, and I notice this at some of the events that I go to and the [00:23:00] opportunities that I've been to need to be more like business suit jacket.

Put together, and I really wanna make like business ownership a little bit more sexy and that you can be sensual and a woman and have that while also being respected. That being said, the interpretation of other people is always going to be what it's going to be. So we have to, I think, be thoughtful, conscious about that to some degree, if you're looking for affecting the perception of those around you.

Makeup versus no makeup. I think there's a statistic data point on this is that women are more well respected and perhaps paid more and and work up through the ladder a little bit more if they don't wear makeup to work versus those women who do wear makeup to work. So perception is. A thing. It is a reality, right?

But how can we think about our appearance in the way that makes sense for us and our brand without letting the assumptions, the expectation of others, dictate and determine how we show up? If [00:24:00] we enjoy a certain type of dress and look. Is that a good representation of our personal brand? And do I wanna move forward with that and be strong in my choices?

Or am I gonna change it? Am am I gonna be pivoting? you know, Liza, in terms of her 40-year-old mom real life, she needs to change her appearance. She needs to change her look. In order to fit into that 26-year-old kind of personality, she needs to also sustain that youthful look in the. Conversation and narrative of the workplace, and then ALA's dismissed because one, she's older, but two, she's also fricking blonde, and so she's just labeled as Za Bimbo, which I.

We have, again, these narratives and from media and culture, legally blonde, for example, which of course she ends up being super smart in Harvard law, which is amazing. But we have these narratives that come from our culture that says, this person, if they look this way, then they are this type of human being.

And I think that as much as we possibly can, we have to work to fight against [00:25:00] those narratives. And whether you're leaning into it wholeheartedly and. Being blonde and being sexy, but also intelligent and smart, and capable and strong. Or whether you choose to wear glasses and wear a high neck shirt and not any makeup, and Present yourself in that way for your personal brand. I think that the important thing here is just to identify that we have these perception based biases. That appearance is an important part of how we present ourselves to the world, that we get to ultimately choose and decide how we show up.

Joanna Newton: Yeah. And that that perception. It affects us, but that means that we can use. Our appearance and the way we show up as part of our branding and part of our story and make it work for us. I am not someone who wears a suit like ever, like I, I like a cute blazer and like jeans or something, you know, like that kinda look, but I'm just like not a power suit woman and that is okay and it's just not part of who I am so I can make my look part of my brand.

I actually [00:26:00] um, saw something from, a autistic and a DHD life coach that I follow on. what's the name of that platform? TikTok. And he said something really powerful about parents that really stuck with me. So. One of the people that people with A DHD or who are on the spectrum struggle with relationships is because people don't know how to categorize them.

They like don't really like fit a category and if you have a DHD or autism and you likely experience masking, so you're trying to like fit a specific mold or a narrative. he found that when A DHD and autistic people. Actually let their looks be a little bit more quirky and not cookie cutter and not so accepted. They actually became more likable cause what would happen is if you're masking, you're like, I'm gonna be a straight laced, say, say, I decided I was gonna be a straight-laced woman in a business suit. People would look at me and they'd be like. Something's like off. Do you know? Like, like they're gonna be like, I get that she looks the part, but like [00:27:00] something's off there. Right. But if I. Have messy hair and in myself and in my own look and all of that, they'll be like, it feels natural, and they won't know what to expect because they, they were expecting a woman in a business suit.

Instead, they got me and then they, they're like open to the possibility of whatever I give them, right? Because I'm not giving them a stereotype. They're then. to expect the unexpected. wearing interesting colors or graphic t-shirts or having an interesting hairstyle or whatever that is, can actually help people connect with you.

So we don't have to get way deep into this conversation today, but you can actually use your appearance. As part of your brand to help people relate to you in a way that's actually authentic to you without having to pretend to be something you are not. But we do have to recognize that the way people perceive us will affect our relationships with them.

Michelle Pualani: And being okay with that. I think that comes with building a niche, following in a niche audience is you're gonna polarize some people and we [00:28:00] have to be okay with that. We talk so much on this podcast about genuine authenticity and showing up as yourself, I think it's so important from a brand perspective, but even more so, it's actually really important from a mental health perspective.

If you constantly feel like you're putting on a facade in order to meet the need of your business, your clients, your audience, it's going to create. This disparity between how you show up professionally and how you show up personally. it's gonna build a sense of lack and incongruency, and your mental and emotional health will suffer as a result of that because you don't feel like you're fully embodying who you are.

And it can have larger repercussions than just your business or just your following, or your income. So being thoughtful about it is key. The next two themes are burden of proof as well as kind of like the opportunity trajectories, and I think they fit into one another.

So women are kind of expected to continuously [00:29:00] overperform over deliver in order to be taken seriously. In doing so, we often struggle with that imposter syndrome of, am I good enough to be doing this because I have to do all of these things in order to be qualified to sustain this job or qualified than other people.

And whereas Joanna mentioned, men are often seen as leaders or rising stars, or they're coming up, women can just kind of be seen as. Unqualified or not able to do their jobs, they're just not given as much leniency. I feel like sometimes when we think about the business ownership, the founder space, the coach, creator, the personal brand, we are often trying to prove and demonstrate that we are good at what we do.

And I think I see this the most in practitioners. When you're transitioning from either like a brick and mortar in person or one-to-one, to building an audience in the digital space, is that you are trying to figure out how to prove [00:30:00] that they can trust you and how to be an authority. And a lot of times.

You're working too hard, and so what we were just talking about, about genuine authenticity, showing up as yourself, speaking your truth, leaning into your passion and not feeling like you have to look a certain way when you show up on camera. Not feeling like you have to never mess up in what it is that you say, Not having to have 36 certifications in order to get started, not having to demonstrate all of your experience all the time. I feel like people are trying to prove, prove, prove when from a content perspective, when you speak meaningfully about the care and compassion that you have for what it is that you do, and who you help and who you serve.

There's so much more connection that is built there. There's so much more reach, there's so much more impact, and you know, in terms of either viral content or people sharing things, or people connecting with you in order to take the next [00:31:00] step. They don't necessarily care about the certifications like it's.

Such a bummer for me to say, especially coming from my background. But ultimately, like people don't care about the certifications as much as they used to. People are more interested in what you can do for them because a lot of people come from a ton of experienced certified background, but aren't very good at delivering the client service.

When you're thinking about your brand, when you're thinking about how you're creating your persona or you're demonstrating your worth, it's more about that emotional connection and relationship you're building with the viewer, with the prospective client, with your customer, than it is about, Hey, look at me.

This is everything that I've done successfully and I need to prove myself in order to be here. letting go of a lot of that and just kind of, again, tuning back into your purpose, your mission, and how you help people and continue to refine and hone in on that, make that your focus as opposed to, oh my God, my hair, and I like this, and da, da, da.

And stop thinking about all of those things and let them go.

Joanna Newton: If I were to like [00:32:00] start over. Do you know what I mean? Like people ask you those questions like, if I were to start over, get me wrong, I'm not one of those people that's like re full of regrets. I've had a great, interesting life and every job that I've had, boss that I've had experience I went through has led me to this point, right? But if I were to start over. Knowing what I know now, I would care a whole lot less about what the people around me thought about me. Because when you're in that, when you're in the corporate world or you are so focused on the clients and everything that they think about you, you kind of can lose the point. the things that I would've focused on rather than does this person like me, so they'll give me a promotion and give me more money, I would've thought, what can I do to prove results? can I do to build my brand? What can I do to build relationships and connections and network? How can I, with data, show what I'm doing as valuable? Because then if the person I'm working with doesn't see it as valuable, I can use that and go find someone else who does. And I think I would've started that a lot earlier actually I will [00:33:00] say first 12 years of my career, I was like, well, the results speak for themselves. I am here, I'm dedicated. I'm always available. I'm always doing stuff. The results speak for themselves. Well, the results didn't speak for themselves. People need you to make those connections for them. So I think that's actually one thing that I I think there is a general bias, right? Men and women and what we have to do to prove ourselves and what they have to do to prove ourselves. But I think, from looking back at my corporate experiences, I think men do a better job of connecting what they do to results. And women kind of expect that picture to just, because we're like, well, it happened. Like, look, isn't it obvious? is not obvious. You think it's obvious, you might be really lucky and get a boss that gets it and, and makes those connections.

But not everybody can make those connections. You have to make them for them. And so again, we can say, oh, bias this, bias that it's real, it's there. But I think we can combat that by putting our results forward. it is so hard. I'll tell you, like I still think I'm like bad at [00:34:00] sales. I do, there's this message that women are bad at sales. I still think I'm bad at sales and like. I think I sold like $10,000 in new business yesterday. And while we were talking, have like three emails from people who want invoices, and I think I'm bad at sales because of that narrative. why, you know, I know we have episodes about this, talking about like mindset and all of that.

That's why all of this stuff is important because the whole world says women are bad at sales. Men are the good ones at sales. Women are bad at sales. And I have the. The receipts to prove that I'm good at it, and I still sometimes don't think I'm a good salesperson. Like it's wild. But it's true. And, that's something that we have to face as women if we're trying to be entrepreneurs, build businesses, build empires. We are not only battling society's expectations of us, but like our own preconceived notions of our abilities.

Michelle Pualani: Being able to demonstrate your work and what it is that you do well is an important part of your content creation, your storytelling, and your personal brand. So when we say, you [00:35:00] know. Prove it in that regard, or demonstrate the customer success or what it is that you've been able to do. That's different than saying like, Hey, look at me.

I'm so good at what I do. That's speaking candidly about your results, and that does take a lot of self-discovery and it takes. Releasing a lot of those narratives that you have about whether you're successful or not, or good at what you do or not. And I think as women, because you know everything that we talked about today, we have these unrealistic expectations.

We have these assumptions, we have this ageism, we have all of these things that we are dealing with from a narrative perspective. But the through line of this conversation is how you are internalizing those things, and that is what leads to self-doubt. Limiting beliefs and fears that keep you from what it is that you're working towards, that keep you from your goals, that keep you from taking action, that keep you from the opportunities that you are meant for and that you are driving toward with so [00:36:00] much idealistic.

Vision, but aren't allowing yourself to embrace. And so that's what we wanna close this conversation with today, is that you can really take some time to reflect. These are the things that are happening. We see them in TV shows, we see them in entertainment, in movies, in the real world, in politics, in business.

We see it all over the place, but that doesn't mean we have to internalize that and we can create our own narratives for ourself that then change our actions and the way in which we engage with the world. So when you're facing a lot of these internal narratives, it's important to first identify and acknowledge that you have them, right?

Joanna is identifying and acknowledging I have the story or the belief system that I am bad at sales independent of the receipts. Independent of the experiences, independent of being a over seven figure agency, I am bad at sales and I've continued that narrative. So just identifying it in the first place is really important.

So take a moment after this episode to sit down and just write [00:37:00] out the beliefs that you feel like you have about yourself. I'm not good on camera. I don't speak clearly in social settings. I am not experienced enough to be able to offer this service. Whatever it is for you, whatever that self-doubt is, that kind of limiting thought process, belief system that you may have internally, Affecting you and impacting your business, your content creation, the way that you're showing up in the world. I want you to start writing it out then move through that experience of just owning it, recognizing it. This is something that I deal with. And then I have, we don't have the time to get into how we deal with that experience, but just starting to identify it is where we want you to start today, 

Joanna Newton: I really encourage you to do this exercise, working on your mindset. I know it can feel like you do not have time for it. I get it. I have been there, but I know that the work I've done on my own mindset and, and what I do with my limiting beliefs has. changed my life. Like I've [00:38:00] had an amazing year so far and amazing last year.

I am so excited for my future I know that that comes from working on my mindset and my limiting beliefs for myself. so take the time. Do the exercise Michelle shared and we'd love to see you talk about it with us in our Facebook group. So if you haven't joined us, we'll put the link in the show notes.

We do have a Facebook group if you wanna talk about your limiting beliefs and get some insight from us, just come on in there and we will have a conversation with you there.

Michelle Pualani: Again, that awareness piece is such an important part of the process to be able to. Change, evolve and grow from that place and deal with a lot of these things that we feel like we deal with. Especially as women. We've been kind of taught, we've had experiences, we've had education. We've grown up to a certain point and have all these underlying stories about how we're living our life and consciously or subconsciously, they're dictating our actions.

They're [00:39:00] dictating what we go for, what we reach for, who we become in our lives. And if we want change, which I assume that you do, because most of our podcast listeners are high achieving women who are looking for growth, looking for scale, working to build their audience, create a course, establish a membership, like do these big things in the world that they maybe haven't done before.

part of that process is letting go of the old story and welcoming that new narrative that you can then operate from, and that's gonna make a huge difference in how you're showing up, how you approach your workday and the outcomes that you see. So if you enjoyed this episode, hit subscribe. We. Are so appreciative of you investing the time and energy to be here with us for this journey.

Your time is the most valuable thing that you have, and we appreciate you in your investment here with us at the Her First Podcast. All right, we'll see you in the next one.[00:40:00]