Episode 84: How Artists Can Fund Their Music Without Giving Up Ownership

Money changes the music you can make, and control changes the way you make it. I sit down with Duetti’s Head of Growth, Elliot Bahmoul, to unpack how music creators can sell a slice of their catalogue for upfront cash and pair that capital with genuine marketing muscle. Instead of waiting on a label advance, we explore how creators can fund albums, tours, and studio upgrades while choosing their own collaborators and keeping their options open.

Elliot breaks down why music IP has matured into a credible asset class, how streaming stabilised royalties, and why catalogue deals aren’t just for superstars. We dig into Duetti’s toolkit: building owned playlist networks optimised for Spotify search, running targeted Meta and TikTok ads that convert short-form spikes into streams, and using data to identify which tracks deserve spend. He also shares how genre-aware remixing—think Brazil’s baile funk—can reinvigorate catalogue songs and unlock regional growth that compounds over time.

Beyond funding, we talk brand building and the wider creator economy. With no-strings cash, artists can invest in products, content, and experiences that increase lifetime value per fan, rather than chasing short-lived playlist highs. We also look ahead: planning for AI voice models, derivative works, and long-term rights, so today’s choices support tomorrow’s autonomy. If you’re weighing a publishing deal, eyeing independence, or simply need a smarter way to finance your next move, this conversation offers clear, practical paths forward.

If this helped you think differently about music funding and growth, subscribe, share the episode with a fellow artist, and leave a quick review to support the show.

https://www.duetti.co

Transcript

Introducing Duetti And Artist Funding

Who Qualifies And Why It Matters

The Case For Flexible Financing

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Hello everybody, and a very warm welcome to you. You're listening to the Music Business Buddy with me, Johnny Amos, podcasting out of Birmingham in England. I'm the author of the book, The Music Business for Music Creators, available in hardback, paperback, and ebook format. I'm a music creator with a variety of credits. I'm a consultant, an artist manager, and a senior lecturer in both music business and music creation. Wherever you are and whatever you do, consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of this community. I'm here to try and educate and inspire music creators from all over the world in their quest to achieve their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. Okay, so this week I am joined by Elliot Barmall from Duetti. He's the head of growth at Duetti. Um if you've never heard of Duetti before, I have mentioned them before on the podcast because I'm fascinated by the whole fintech artist funding thing. But Dueti is a music financing platform, right? They help independent artists to get upfront cash by selling all or a part of their music catalogues. When I say music catalogues, I'm talking about two different things. So either songs that you would traditionally sign, perhaps, or assign or license to a music publisher, or recorded music that you would traditionally sign to a record company. If you don't do either of those things, instead you could work with Duetti by gaining upfront cash for kind of giving them either all of those rights or part of them. Right. This is something we're seeing a lot of. On top of that, they also provide data-driven marketing, distribution, um, catalogue optimization, uh royalty optimization services to grow their careers. So they offer pretty fast, transparent deals for artists to unlock capital, basically, to, you know, for new projects, life goals, or whatever you want to spend the money on. Uh now the other thing that they also do is catalogue monetization, right? So and this is beyond just kind of like big name stars, right? So they use technology to kind of value and market songs effectively, right? So that's what they do, and they fascinate me. And I'll be honest with you, I've been trying to get um a chance to talk to them um for a uh a little while now, and I've been patient because I I've really wanted to talk to them about what it is they offer. Because one of the things, in case you're wondering, by the way, oh, this is just for the big name stars, it isn't, it really isn't. So if you earn£2,000 per year from your music, you would be eligible to work with Duetti, right? So either you're at that level right now, in which case you could go and work with them straight away, or that might be something that you work towards. So if you, for example, you go, Well, my my my you know, I'm not making two grand a year just from my music yet. However, when I do, and I can see myself doing that because of this, this, this, this, this, and this over here, then all of a sudden this becomes an option. And that's the goal of today, right? I really want you to be able to kind of go, okay, I could work with a music publisher. There is immense value to doing that. I could go and sign my recorded music to a record company. Nothing wrong with that. I'm not rubbishing either of those solutions. They've worked for decades and I think that they'll work for many, many, many decades to come. However, we are seeing other routes into market now. Artists need money, right? There's no denying that. And this is a different way of getting that money so that you can spend it and you can live life as a musician and do the things that you want to do. It's impossible to do it fully and properly professionally without money. So that is where Duetti come in, right? They offer that money. So I've been wanting to talk to them for a while, as I say. I think they're really, really fascinating. I think they're an early market mover. They've just kind of they've started to add all of these extra marketing tools to what they do as well. You don't have to work with them on that level, but it is most certainly an area that they are expanding into. And Elliot that I interview in today's episode is an expert in that field. Okay, I will hand over to the interview, take note, enjoy. Here we go. Elliot, welcome to the music business buddy. It's good to have you here. How are you? Thanks for having me. Doing well. Good, good. Um, Elliot, I've been familiar with Duetti for quite some time, um, and I'm really, really excited to be talking to you. You're the first person from Duetti, or even really from the sort of FinTech artist funding that I've spoken to on the pod. Uh, so I am delighted to uh to have you here. So I'll hit you with the first question. Um, so the first thing is this the intellectual property um of general song copyrights and of recorded music rights, you know, is becoming a very kind of future-proof asset class in the creator economy. Why is it, do you think, that we've begun to kind of witness more um whole or partial catalogue sales in this decade so far? Is there a reason for it?

Elliot Barmall Joins The Conversation

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Sure. So I think at a high level, music IP is just matured into a credible asset class. Um streaming overall has stabilized consumption a lot and it's made cash flows much more predictable. For superstar artists, the motivation is primarily financial, you know, diversifying wealth, estate planning, et cetera. Uh, but further downstream, really where we focus, I believe there's a bit of a growing disillusionment with the traditional label ecosystem. Artists are really looking for flexibility, optionality, uh, which includes remaining independent. So artists are now finding that these financial solutions that were previously only available for those A-list artists are now applicable to them as well. And that's where Duetti is kind of playing a part in that story.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

That makes perfect sense. Yeah. Um, so one of the things that um I've focused on on the podcast in recent months, in recent months, is the idea of like this kind of artist-centered ecosystem. Um, now, Duetti, there's a lot of people talking about that. Duetti are actually doing something about that. Um, so perhaps that term artist-centred truly actually relates to artists not really being at the mercy of a traditional record company or a traditional music publisher. Um, so offering financial tools and independence to creators means that they can actually that they're changing, you know, you're changing the business model of how that music creator can actually operate. Is that the goal, amongst other things?

Why Catalogue Deals Are Rising

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Yeah, exactly. I I think there's generally a lot less reliance these days on traditional music companies for kind of that baseline or table stake support that artists need in their in their careers. And I know as it's very well documented, right? Artists can connect directly with fans now, right? They can talk to them, they can sell directly to them. Um, and and really savvy artists can own that entire 360 experience without outside assistance. Um, so we think the new business model is really about flexibility, transparency, etc. You know, you can partner with us, you can get cash to invest in whatever you see is the best next fit for you. You know, that can apply directly to your music career, funding your new tour, your new album, upgrading the studio, et cetera. But it can also apply to other things outside of music as well.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Interesting. Yeah, that makes um that makes perfect sense. Um, do you know, uh if you think about it, you know, some of the things that can often happen when an artist signs to a traditional record company, they're at the mercy of the personnel that's there, right? They can't kind of suddenly say, hey, I would like to work with this person and this person and this person, because those people are salaried by the record company. Um, so you're also giving that sense of flexibility to you know, have creators work with who they actually want to work with.

Building An Artist-Centred Model

SPEAKER_02 7:56

Absolutely. Um, I think you know, one of the biggest value ads for us is that it truly is no strings attached. Artists can be as good of a partner as they want to be with Duedi. Obviously, we love super involved artist partners who want to, you know, continue to work with us on marketing and other things uh post post-deal. Um, but by no means are they beholden to um you know what we want to do or um influences that we're trying to exert onto them.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Yeah, okay, yeah, that's uh that's nice. Um so let's think about um market. Marketing is kind of one of your wheelhouses, Elliot, right? Um so let's think about marketing and optimization. Um that is something that Dueti very much offer. Um so would that be in sort of the the creative sync licensing, playlist pitching, uh perhaps advertising as well? Could you talk us through that side of it?

No-Strings Capital And Choice

SPEAKER_02 8:53

For sure. So sync and playlisting are part of it. Um I would say I've spent the last three years at Duetti trying to build a full service suite of marketing uh programs for our catalog. Um so I guess speaking directly to Sync first, we do work with supervisors, agencies, et cetera, on licensing our stuff out for traditional placements. Um, with playlisting in particular, we've actually found better success building and advertising our own playlist network in-house rather than pitching for third-party opportunities on the platforms. Um basically we figured out a way to measure search volume on Spotify, similar to the way you would see it on Google or other search engines. And we'll basically build playlists that are very like keyword optimized based on the intended search term. Um and so we advertise these playlists. Obviously, we're driving streams as a direct result of those advertisement advertisements. But we're also effectively kind of bidding on that certain keyword for Spotify SEO. Uh, meaning that as we advertise these playlists, there's a better chance that when a user goes and organically searches Brain Rot or TikTok audios or any sort of keyword on Spotify, they'll see our playlists organically. Um, and so our aim essentially with all of these playlists is to be the first playlist that a user sees when they go and search a given keyword on Spotify. And this allows these playlists to kind of grow in the long term, um, driving streams in a more effective way, and also just trying to try to capture all of those very high-intent Spotify super users, if you will, um, who are more likely to go out and add these songs to their own playlists, save it to the library, et cetera.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Um Wow. Sorry, can I just ask you about that? That's really, I didn't know. I didn't know you were doing that. That's so smart, right? To kind of build your own playlist system with that kind of um algorithmic approach in mind. Um, because otherwise you're always at the mercy of other people's curation, right? And other tastemakers. That's so I didn't realize that was a step you're taking. Congrats, that's a great step.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Exactly. For us, you know, we really we understand that we are long-term partners and we're trying to build programs that are sustainable, right? Um, playlist placements on the editorial side can be very impactful, but in many cases they are time limited, right? Um, and we want to be building things that are going to be able to sustain um improve performance for the portfolio over a long period of time.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, if you think about the kind of uh like the editorial playlist side of it, um, you know, let's say some an artist has got a track and it's done well, but it's had a major spike, but then it kind of goes up, comes back down again. Um, I've spoken to many artists that kind of feel quite happy about it to begin with and then quite despondent afterwards, to which I always say, well, hey, you know, that's still a huge data spill for collaborative filtering. There's a lot of data that could be pulled on there that can actually then trigger more algorithmic reaction to further your growth. However, if you're not reliant upon that and you've actually got your own infrastructure that you're trying to build, that's absolutely foolproof because um that means you don't have to rely on other partners. Um I I love it that you're doing that.

SPEAKER_02 12:10

Exactly. Um we build these playlists with kind of those incremental streaming opportunities in mind, right? We're trying to drive high-intent listenership and active discovery on the playlists, which then signals additional playlist ads, safes, etc. Those streams also improve Spotify popularity score. The idea is that those three factors combined will lead to increased radio uplift, et cetera.

Duetti’s Marketing And Optimisation Suite

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Okay, yeah, yeah, that all adds up. Yeah, very good. Okay. Um, what about advertisements? Do is that something you get involved with, you know, sort of meta advertisements and things like that?

SPEAKER_02 12:48

A bit, yeah. So with the when it comes to playlisting, we do advertise these playlists on Meta, TikTok, et cetera. We also run a variety of campaigns on short form channels like TikTok and Instagram Reels. The idea here is to identify and amplify tracks which already have some momentum on these platforms at a very small scale. We're identifying short-term spikes in engagement on short-form channels and how that translates to DSP activity. We'll then double down on those opportunities with paid spend in the effort to increase DSP conversion.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Gotcha. Okay. Wow, there's so much um thought and strategy here. This is great. Um, so I'm mindful that when it comes to trends and movements and stuff, a lot of it can be quite sort of reactive. If we're not careful, you can end up chasing your own tail sometimes, trying to understand the latest spikes. Is a part of your research uh for optimization, is it around genre trends as well? So, for example, um looking at you know what's kind of bubbling up from the underground that might turn mainstream, what countries are kind of having that kind of local impact on a global level. Uh, is that a part of the research as well?

SPEAKER_02 14:04

Yes, absolutely. We also run a remix program in-house. Um, and for example, we're seeing a lot of success in Brazil with the bailey funk and some of the other regional funk genres. So trying to find ways to reinterpret and reinvigorate some songs in our catalog um specific to that genre.

Playlist SEO And Owned Networks

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Ah, okay. Wow, that's very interesting. Okay. Uh to kind of capitalize on that growth movement and then, yeah, okay. That makes uh that makes a lot of sense. Um, so um, you know, we're starting uh to see the dawn of a new era, right, where music creators sit more deeply inside the creator economy. And so by working with Duetti, it seems to me um that it gives creators the opportunity to explore their kind of ancillary income streams that sit outside of their music IP. Am I right in thinking that or am I off the mark?

SPEAKER_02 15:03

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the good things about working with Duetti is that the money as a result of our partnership is no strings attached, right? And we speak to artists all the time who don't just do one thing, they don't just make music. Um, and so partnering with Duetti allows creators to invest in projects outside of music.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Interesting. Okay, we'd see a lot of kind of paralleling now with music creators that kind of have like their music career or their music IP on the left side, let's say. The right side might be like their their YouTube, their cookery channel or whatever it is. And then in the middle is kind of their brand. Um, you know, is that something that you're seeing?

SPEAKER_02 15:45

Absolutely. And I I think when we speak about artists in the context of marketing, the the big emphasis now is to build a brand, right? Um, and what's cool about that, and especially with the way that you're able to directly access your fans, is that you can, while you may, while you may be an artist first, there are a lot of other ancillary income streams that you can explore, whether it be live streaming, merch, actual products themselves, yeah. There's a lot more ways to capitalize on the fan base that you've built and kind of improve that LTV calculation.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Yeah, yeah, that uh that makes that makes a lot of sense. Um very, very good. Okay. Um so how how long have you been involved with with uh with with Duety?

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Yeah, I've been at Duety a bit over three years now. Um so I was one of the early employees and and the first marketing hire here, so was really brought in to try and build some of these programs from from the ground up.

Paid Ads And Short-Form Momentum

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Wow, you're doing a great job, Elliot. You really are. I mean, um that says a lot. So you've been in there since the beginning, really. Great. Wow, wow. That's um that's that's legacy, man. Good for you for doing that. That's seriously, that's amazing. Um, and and so, and so tell tell me more about you, Elliot. Where where was that was that the like the beginning of your career? Or what does your story look like up until that point?

Trend Spotting And Remix Strategy

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Yeah, um I would say my my my story with music really began in high school. Um, I was writing for a couple different music blogs. Um, and this was back when Hype Machine was very relevant and blogs kind of still had some sway, right? So I was writing uh at Ear Milk and some of these other um blogs, covering new releases, interviewing artists at shows, et cetera. I kind of parlayed that into starting my own freelance PR company and uh and management company as well. Um, one of the artists I I managed um back in college is actually now a Duati partner, coincidentally, which is which is very cool. Oh and then started a label as well, uh, which became a subsidiary of Ultra. Um, I would say after college, I took a bit of a pivot. Um, I was really interested in data-driven marketing in general. I thought there was a big kind of gap in the market as it pertains to music specifically. Um, so I began to work at a growth marketing agency, um, was running some campaigns for frontline releases from the majors and festivals and stuff like that, but also very classic D2C marketing and stuff like that. Um and yeah, Duetti was the perfect opportunity to kind of bring those tactics to life in the music industry. Um, so uh we were put in touch pretty early on and it was a no-brainer.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Okay, yeah, yeah. Oh, it makes perfect sense to me. They must have saw you come in and go, we need this guy. Like with that kind of background, right? I mean, doing what you did there writing for the likes of ear milk, setting up your PR, you know, that makes you a tastemaker. Like that's a very well, it's interesting because um, you know, I I talk to a lot of ARs, it's record companies and stuff, and they that's very often like that first pivot point, early career, you know, let's head into AR. You could have done that, right? Um, oh you still could, but the fact that you did, you moved into FinTech, you know, when you did, uh, speaks volumes about the growth of that sector.

Beyond Music: Funding The Wider Brand

SPEAKER_02 19:25

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I I still do love to think about Duetti as a music company, and my job is you know, a highly creative role that's very close to the music. And you know, we take we do take editorial decisions um when it when it pertains to the marketing. So I think that that background comes comes in handy for sure.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Oh yeah, yeah. That's a lot of stuff all kind of connected together that uh that uniquely positions you into this. That's very, very cool. Um, so um let me just finally ask you a little bit more um about FinTech, because you know it's It's a relatively new thing. You know, a lot of people still don't necessarily understand it. I did a podcast episode actually explaining kind of what it was and where the hybridization came from in the terminology and that kind of thing. It feels to me very much like it could be, you know, the answer that a lot of people have been looking for all this time, right? As in the answer to artist funding. You know, it feels like it's the beginning of a new era in that respect. Would you agree with that?

Elliot’s Path And Growth Role

SPEAKER_02 20:30

For sure. I mean, I think I think it all plays back into the narrative that more and more artists want to remain independent. There are more opportunities available outside of signing a traditional record deal, right? One of the hardest things as an independent artist is getting capital, right? And the traditional method of doing that for a long time is signing a record deal or a publishing deal, and you get in advance, but you know, you're locking away uh control of your records in the future for a very long time, right? Um so the idea that you're able to sell an old song that you may be less attached to or um doesn't directly impact your future creative endeavors and be able to use that money to really fuel the next stage in your career, I think that's a massive step for the music industry.

Fintech As The New Artist Advance

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Um, good stuff. Okay, well, I I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me here today. Um, Elliot, thank you so much for your time here. Good luck with all of your projects, all your ideas. I fully support what you're doing at Duetti. I think it's absolutely pioneering. Uh keep up the good work. Thank you for joining me on the podcast. Thanks, Johnny. Wow, very interesting. Okay, um, top guy, uh, top company. I'm very impressed uh by Elliot and by what Duetti do. I really uh am grateful for the chance to have spoken to them uh, you know, and to Elliot today about this. Um one of the things, one of the many interesting things that Elliot referred to was the traditional way of doing things and how that might be changing. Now, that's really the key thing as to why I wanted to talk to Elliot in today's episode. Um the other thing to bear in mind is this, everybody, right? Yes, people have worked a certain way in music, right, for many, many years. But music IP is changing, right? Um not the core concept of it, but how it's valued, that is changing. And also it's very healthy to think long-term, you know. I've mentioned before about the idea of a certain sense of independence, even if you've got other financial stakeholders uh in place in your career. So an example of that would be signing rights to a company. But what do those rights look like if you to add an AI voice model or an AI interpretive model of that music, right? You know, by working, I guess, with a company like Duetti, you have a lot more control over that stuff. Now, the other thing is this a lot of people will kind of say, well, you know, I if I sign my rights away, then you know, I need money for it, right? Because that's what a record company would do. But that is what Duetti would do. They replace a music publisher or a record company in that respect. But then you might lose out on the personnel that you would get from working with one of those companies. However, to switch it on its head again, the money that you get from that you can then spend how you wish. You can bring in personnel that you want to work with. Um, also, you know, this is just a different way of doing things. I think there are a lot of music creators that are starting to switch into this model and for good reason, it makes sense, and I can see why they do it. The question is what's right for you? Um, and when I say what's right for you, I'm not just asking what's right for you right now, because you've got to look ahead, right? And I don't just mean a year or two as to what your plans and your strategy might look like then, but also what you want your music IP to look like several decades from now. I know it's almost unfathomable to think that way, but it's important, it's all a part of your legacy, and the copyright on anything you create will expire one day. So it's good to think about all of these things. I know there's a lot to think about, but hey, there we go. So I wanted to share that with you. I hope that's been useful. Feel free to leave comments, reach out to me, ask questions, all that kind of stuff. I'm here to help everybody. Okay, have a great day. Until next time, may the force be with you.