Episode 86: An Interview With Catalogue and Rights Specialist Robin Maddicott

What if the biggest lever on your music’s success isn’t a new single, but the data behind it? We sit down with music catalogue specialist Robin Maddicott to unpack the hidden systems that decide where your tracks land, who discovers them, and how the money finds its way back. From artist-page mapping to remixer credit strategy, Robin shows how small metadata choices create outsized results on Spotify, Apple Music, and beyond.

We also lift the hood on catalogue as an asset class. Clean data isn’t just tidy admin; it’s enterprise value. Robin explains why verified splits, consistent identifiers, and transparent collections command better multiples, and how deep audits can surface black-box income in neglected territories. For buyers, broken data can be opportunity. For creators, discipline at the point of creation is the cheapest way to protect long-term value.

Then we confront the AI frontier. Can provenance standards like C2PA embed authorship into audio and make attribution machine-readable? Where do detection tools work, and where do they fail when a human re-records an AI seed? Robin maps a path toward fair licensing of training data and recognition of reused “music DNA” without stifling creativity. Finally, we talk campaign strategy: why integrity is the new scarcity, how catalogue storytelling (like the José González anniversary) expands audiences, and why the pendulum may swing from always-on posting back to crafted, seasonal moments that restore a bit of mystique.

If you care about discovery, royalties, and future-proofing your rights in an AI-driven market, this conversation gives you a playbook and a compass. Subscribe, share with a fellow creator, and leave a review with the one metadata fix you’ll implement this week.

Transcript

Why A Catalogue Specialist Matters

Meet Robin Madicott

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Hello everybody, hello everyone, welcome to you're listening to the music business body with me, Johnny Amos, podcasting out of Birmingham in England. I'm the author of the book, The Music Business for Music Creators, available in hardback, paperback, and ebook format. I am a music creator with a variety of credits, I'm a consultant, an artist manager, and a senior lecturer in both music business and music creation. Wherever you are and whatever you do, consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of this community. I'm here to try and educate and inspire music creators from all over the world in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. Okay, something that dawned on me uh in recent weeks, everybody, I it was in fact it was after my conversation uh with Elliot from Duetti. It made me think that actually what we really need is a really high-end music catalogue specialist. So I did some research, right? I looked around the room, I looked around the internet, uh, and I found a guy on LinkedIn called Robin Madicott. And oh my god, I am so glad I found him. He is my guest for this week's episode. Let me tell you a little bit about him because some of the things that he reveals in today's episode are absolutely fascinating. He has a brilliant mind. So he is a music catalogue specialist, right, with over 20 years of experience uh across metadata, distribution, auditing, rights management. He's currently the chief growth officer at Telegram Studios, uh, where he focuses on maximizing the value of the company's master and publishing portfolios through collaborations with artists and labels and catalogue activation, long-term rights strategy, that kind of thing. Um his work basically combines creative catalogue activation with deep operational and financial optimization, right? So on the creative side, that includes sort of you know AR-driven collaborations, sync, remix, reissue strategies, shaping how catalogues are presented, uh that kind of thing. On the data and infrastructure side, uh it spans large-scale catalogue audits, metadata, royalty analysis, uh you know, multi-partner servicing designed to ensure accuracy, long-term value, etc. Alongside that, he's also involved with catalogue acquisitions, right? So actively sourcing new opportunities, supporting valuations, structuring transactions and that kind of thing. Um, you know, his focus is on building durable ethical growth from music rights, right? Whether that's on the publishing side or on the recording side. And his knowledge is so good, it's so now. Some of the things he talks about in this interview today, um, you know, were a real education, a real eye-opener for me, um, especially when he talks about where uh how to solve some of the AI problems. You know, you've heard me talk about, and when I say the problems, by the way, what I really mean I I you know I do embrace AI, but um some of the problems in regards to music rights, right? So uh the remunerative side of usage when copyright usage is used, you know, to uh as training data, right? We've talked about that before in the podcast. It's a big subject at the top of the mainstream agenda, but the reason I mention it right now is because Robin addresses something that might actually solve it. Uh there's a long way to go in it, but um it's knowing where to start is often the difficulty, and Robin presents that very beautifully in this interview, alongside many other things, uh especially in regards to kind of you know um a true collection of rights and the nuances between different organizations around the world. Um it will pay dividends to hear some of the things that he says. So I'm gonna hand over to the interview now. Robin, welcome to the music business, buddy. Uh, it's really, really good to have you here. Thank you for joining me. First and foremost, Robin, how are you?

SPEAKER_01 3:56

I'm very well, thanks, Johnny. I'm very well. Yeah, it's a cold, rainy day here in Copenhagen, but I'm hopeful that spring is just around the corner and feeling over over all quite positive.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Yes, yes, yeah. Do you find that um, you know, being a Brit but being in Denmark, do you find that it takes Denmark a little longer to reach spring than it does in the UK?

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Yes, and I also every year get sort of tripped up by this period we're coming into now, which is the sort of post-new year, well, basically the the main part of winter, because I I kind of get past the new year, I think, okay, that's it, because you know, winters can be pretty bleak here in uh in Scandinavia. And so I get to this stage and I'm like, right, as I said, you know, spring's on its way, etc. And then I it gets to kind of February, and then it's like this is when it gets really cold, and you know, uh it can start to get even more grueling, and then but then you know, again, it's like yeah, to answer your point, it does feel like it takes longer, but but when it does arrive, it's a it's a glorious thing. So there you go.

Metadata As The Instruction Manual

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's uh it's worth it when you get there, absolutely. Um, Robin, there's loads of things I could ask you about, but uh let's start with with metadata, right, or the importance of it. Um in regards to distribution to the DSPs in particular, um, how important is it, just as you know, for labels and for you know independent artists, uh, to be able to kind of uh get their metadata right? What can they do to ensure accuracy?

Fixes, Optimisation And Royalty Flow

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Yeah, well, the way I tend to think about it is this it's basically metadata is the instruction manual that you're sending out when you're when you're delivering music to DSPs and uh and also to other services, um, you know, such as CMOs and PROs, etc., um, which will become, you know, is also extremely relevant. Um basically what you're doing is you're telling, you're giving them an instruction on how to process the product or the or the asset that you're sending them. And uh as it's getting processed by these by these systems downstream, it's a very sort of on their side, a very black and white process, if that's the right term. It's there's no there's not really any room for nuance. So basically, a small error or seemingly small error on on the label or the artist's side when it comes to you know putting the data together and delivering it can result in a sort of um a much you know a more dramatic, should we say, um issue on the other end. And examples of that can be things like um, you know, if you have a slight formatting issue in your artist's name, it can create a completely new profile on a DSP, and then your product gets mapped to completely the wrong page. Um, you know, I've I've seen that so many times um over the years on on the catalogs I've worked with, uh, even for like really significant big, big artists, and and you just dig a tiny little bit um on big platforms as well, you know, on on Spotify's and Titles and Apple, um, you know, Amazon, etc. So that that's kind of just creating a lot of mess. It's it's you know, you're you're missing out on audience because you know your discoverability is is you know seriously kind of uh impacted by that. And then um there's other things such as like you know, when it comes down to how you format kind of um things like featured artists and remixes and stuff like that, that can also have a big kind of downstream knock-on effect in the sense that if you have a high-profile remix set involved with your track and you deliver it incorrectly, and again, I see this all the time, that uh remixer might just appear like in the title field, or it might not be linked to their correct artist profiles. So there's all these sort of like exponential knock-on effects that can end up being quite significant. Um, and if you do it right and you know how to you know properly you know input and manage the data, there's ways you can sort of optimize as well. So something I've seen happening a lot more recently is when it comes to just to stay on the remix um example, rather than uh you know, listing a remix as of as a featured artist, I'm seeing people increasingly list them as sort of secondary primary artists. And the advantage to that is that release will then show up on the remixes page as a new release, sort of at the top of their profile, as yeah, as if it was a new release by them basically, rather than being tucked away on the sort of appears on section. Um, which obviously, you know, you're sort of increasing your your visibility significantly by doing that, and obviously you need to have the permission of the artists involved um to do that, which is obviously super important, but you know, if possible, that's a great little trick just to kind of as I said increase your visibility on the platforms. Um and that's sort of and then in terms of like what's happening on the back end, like there's been this there's a lot of sort of back-end processes on the DSP side that they're using to determine like algorithmically where your music's go likely to be placed, um, in sort of you know, algorithmic playlists, um and and you know, based on genre and based on um yeah different fields, and and basically um so the the more accurate you can make it basically from the outset the better. Um and that's becoming you know more and more important, um, I would say, which I'm I'm guessing we may get to, but you know, in the advent of AI and so on, it's like you know, there's uh increased focus on on metadata and it's um yeah, so it on that side is super important, and then another kind of equally important um area to look at with it is is in terms of how you're sort of uh on on the revenue side basically. And uh again, it's it's a case of your essentially instructing these services how to you know push your product out, how to um display it on the shopfront within the shopfront, and and also then how to return the money to um you know the correct parties. Um and again, you know, if if you if you don't kind of deliver it with the correct data in the first place, the trouble is systems start to, you know, once the data's out there, it starts to get multiplied across many different types of systems. It's it's in you know UGC libraries, it's in Lyric uh libraries potentially, etc. etc. Um in when you kind of go back and start to try and unravel that, it's a bit like unraveling spaghetti, you know, it's it's sort of meshed in.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Yeah, I can imagine.

Clean Data As Catalogue Value

SPEAKER_01 11:44

So um, yeah, so it's I mean, it's very, very important, I would say. And then as a third sort of final point, increasingly, as I'm sort of work on the you know, on the music, um, finance, you know, catalogue side of things, having a catalogue with clean and accurate metadata is ultimately adding sort of long-term value to your catalog, should you ever wish to sort of explore a sale in the future. I can tell you from experience, you know, having that data just you know properly verified and and stored um as you go is is a really sensible thing to do. And also by far and away the best time to do it is just after the creation of the music or or during the process, because that's when all the you know other people that you're they're involved in the making of the record are sort of you know um nearby and you're able to get all the details you need, you can remember who played what and everything, etc. etc. It's a little a little bit of admin that can have a you know um disproportionately large effect on on the actual outcome of what it is you're recording. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

In that sense. Yeah, got um solid advice. There's a lot to uh there's a lot to think about there. Do you know just um just linking back to that last point there, Robin, um the uh the just the idea of music I being IP being like you know an asset class these days, you know, much more so perhaps than even before in terms of like catalogue sales on the publishing side and on the recording side. I was talking recently to um to Elliot, head of growth at Duetti, he was on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, and he was he was talking about that subject. And actually, just linking what he was saying then to something that you just said, surely a part of trying to value a catalogue uh and that due diligence that goes into it on an accountancy level, surely a part of that has to be uh, you know, how accurate is the collection? Um, and you know, and which subsequently links back to exactly what you just said, right? About like accuracy on uh metadata. Um it's perhaps something that you know, certainly not you, but many people might overlook sometimes, but surely that's going to be a part of uh of catalogue value as well, is to how well it's been collected on for years.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

100%, yeah. I mean, I think even within the last sort of six months or so, I'm starting to see a bit more focus on it, honestly, because I think there's been a lot of um examples in the past basically where exactly what you're talking about happened. Someone's spent a lot of money, a very high multiple for a catalogue, and then when they sort of you know dig into it, they realize actually, you know, there's a lot of things they can't do with the catalogue essentially, or or at least they're not able to sort of maximize the return in the way that they initially um expected to, without some serious uh you know, operational lift to get it into shape.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Um but I think you know, on the flip side of that, there's also sometimes an opportunity because if you're if you know what you're looking for, and very important if you know how to um you know fix it as much as it's able to be fixed, there can be a lot of latent opportunity in catalogs because you might have a you know a major artist catalog that's been generating a lot of money for over a long period of time, but is missing some you know deep dive audits and and you know uh you know the data and so many catalogues that I've looked at, when you get into the data, it's honestly well to me it's not shocking anymore because I've seen this so many times, but like um if you didn't sort of have that context to look at it in it's amazing actually, like this the kind of the issues data-wise with with some really big, big catalogs, you know, oftentimes is just yeah, key fields missing from the data, like super kind of yeah, everything I talked about in the first point really things to do with like you know, artist pages being incorrectly mapped, and uh yeah, so you know, and and a ton of money being left um sort of in a lot of blacks black box um areas as well, you know. So that again it's sort of it's a risk, but if you know, depending on the resources available to the buyer and and the sort of knowledge base, it can potentially be flipped into an advantage.

Global Collection Nuances And Silos

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um I was talking on on here a few weeks ago to Ralph W. Peer at Peer Music, and he was talking in great detail about you know the um the advantages of having boots on the ground in different territories in terms of collection on the on the song publishing side of things. And you know, he he kind of you know he he pointed out something I hadn't really thought about before. He was like he said to me, you know, the nuances of collection from like PRO to PRO to culture to culture are like absolutely massive. Um yeah, um you must deal with that all the time.

C2PA, Provenance And Adoption Hurdles

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Yes, I mean that's one of the biggest issues on the data side in the industry currently, I would say, is basically that sort of interaction and and communication between the different CMOs and PROs um you know around the world. Because exactly as you say, you know, they all have sort of different um requirements and different frameworks that they that they use internally. And you know, data is it's a strange thing because to break it down a bit, like data is a very sort of valuable thing, basically. And in an ideal world, and I think it's something which is achievable potentially over time, there would be essentially a single source of truth when it comes to data. It's something I come across all the time, and you know, not just in the music industry, I've spoken to people in like in like the gaming industries and the uh film and TV industries, and it's sort of the same thing, it comes up again and again and again. It's it's these sort of siloed off databases that don't have the kind of validation that's needed to be able to sort of fully trust it, and also when you start to move the data between the different silos, there's the mapping is just off and it and it creates a lot of sort of mess and issues. So I think you know it's it's something I the way that that can be it's a yeah, it's a big subject. I mean, there's there's some people working on some potential solutions. There's this um, it's a group called the C2PA, and they're developing basically a a kind of um like a cryptographic signature system that will be embedded into the actual audio file at the time of its creation. And the idea behind that is to sort of make like an immutable stamp that no matter where that file then travels to, it's able to be sort of referenced back and and you know, then that also potentially combats a lot of the issues that you know, the vast number of issues that are starting to come up around AI. Wow, that AI music as well.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

How how close is that to happening, do you think, Robin? The the is it C2PA, you say?

SPEAKER_01 19:20

C2PA, yeah. I mean, as with anything in the music industry, it comes down to like adoption, I think. And it's uh, you know, there's a lot of people out there who are sort of very vocally advocating for it. Um there's a person called Virginie Bajer, who who's sort of um one of the top voices, I would say, in in this area, particularly around AI and and um and uh attribution. And and I she's involved with the the C2PA and sort of um helping to push that through as far as I'm aware. Um but in terms of it actually happening, I it's really difficult to say. You know, I think in the short term it's pretty unlikely, frankly, because the other thing is. You know, the music industry is notoriously kind of political and territorial, and these databases, there's not just, you know, you know, it's the DSPs as well, it's the labels, it's all different kinds of um, you know, uh parties within the industry. It's as I said, data inherently is valuable, and they view their own data as valuable. And so to utilize something like the C2PA or like some kind of blockchain technology, which is another area people have talked about a lot in this uh with regards to this, would essentially mean them sort of relinquishing some control of their data. And you know, I think from a sort of conceptual point of view and in terms of what would you know ultimately very likely benefit the the composers and creators and the rights holders, um it would be a great thing, but whether or not, as I said, that's actually likely to be you know actually scalable, implementable in the in the near term, I have no idea.

AI Detection Limits And Grey Areas

SPEAKER_00 21:05

Yeah, that that would be it'd be so nice, wouldn't it? It would solve so many problems. I mean, we are beginning to kind of see new standards, you know, for DDEX, whereby the use of AI tools in the creation of recorded music must be declared by right holders. But if it's not declared, um then, you know, you know, in theory, the technology on something like that is there to then detect it if it's not declared. Is that the idea?

SPEAKER_01 21:32

It is, but I mean, it's interesting. There are there are services out there, um, probably the most well known at the moment being Deezer, who claim to be able to detect like 100% you know, AI generated uh audio. Um, and I I think the results of that are looking pretty good. Um, but there's a lot when you start to kind of dig into it, there's a lot of other sort of discrepancies and issues to look at. And you know, I think firstly, just on that audio side, something that's happening a lot at the moment is people are finding ways to sort of game the system. And with relatively you know, few tweaks, you're able to disguise sort of a lot of the artifacts that are left over in sort of fully AI-generated audio by doing things like you know, messing with the EQ or re-recording things and and so on and so forth. It's a little bit similar. I don't know if you remember this, but sort of in in the 2000s, um, you know, at the kind of somewhat at the start of the digital side of the industry, there was quite a few sort of um companies out there who would take like PD, you know, public domain uh material and they'd like re-record it through like a speaker or something, and then claim that as a new master, and therefore try and sort of monetize it worldwide. And it's somewhat I think it's somewhat analogous to that, the current situation uh in terms of what people are able to do with AI and and you know, and it's gonna become more sophisticated. And and so, you know, I think there's already, you know, as I said, detection systems at work um at Deezer and some other DSP design understand it. But then you can also kind of get into like the semantics of it in terms of like, well, what is you know, what is AI generated music? You know, is it just audio? You know, because if if it's just audio, I think the answer is there's you know, there's a good probability that you know people will be able to flag the majority of you know purely AI generated audio in in the near future. But then what happens when someone is using AI to complete a melody line or to finish a lyric or you know, um, or taking like a AI generated song and then recording it on organic instruments and and as a band or whatever, you know, it's it becomes much more of like a musicologist question, I think. And um, and then that's really, really difficult to unpack because that brings up a whole question of well, you know, some people might say, isn't that just the same as um you know plagiarism and and you know influence or subconscious influences existed for you know a long, long time, isn't this just the same thing?

Towards Fair Licensing For AI Training

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Well, I do I do I do worry a little bit long-term there about the music publishing sector in regards to that, because the intangible is becoming harder to protect. If the tangible is easier to protect, i.e. what you alluded to there, the recorded music, uh, then we can say, okay, we can build that into future technologies and we can detect it and keep a track of it, trace it, remunerate it based on usage, etc. However, the difficulty behind that is the point of ideation. And I know a lot of people now are using IDA, AI, I should say, for that initial starting point. You know, let's use this tool to get this idea going, and then we'll replace it with humans or different technologies so that we can't track it. And I understand that and it makes sense, but there's a problem with it, and that sits in the intangible, right? You know, what songs were being listened to, what what point can you prove, you know, uh the traditional aspects of like, you know, uh infringement on a song copyright as opposed to the recording? Um, I'm not sure. I that's I do worry a little bit about the music publishing future. I by the way, I'm a big supporter of AI, but that aspect, uh, it does make me think, oh, does that diminish the actual power of the song and empower the actual recording of it?

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Yeah, I think it's a it's a really good point. And you know, I think I know there are services out there now that are kind of looking at it more on or attempting to look at it more on on this level in terms of analysing the actual music, the melody, and and the chord structures, etc., to look for sort of um patterns that are recognized against you know pre-existing um you know configurations. But you know, the trouble is again, it's like, well, how can you prove that that's AI, or is that just inspiration? Or you know, it's it's a really difficult thing. And and all I'm seeing so far, really on the publishing side, it's it's you know, it's great that they're already starting to take some steps. I think you know it's important that they are overall, I would say generally speaking, siding siding on the side of the songwriter and sort of trying to um you know uh yeah, respect that. But a lot of it seems to be coming down to sort of um you know, essentially people having to volunteer the information at the point of registration, and like you said, unless you've got a very sort of strong moral compass, as a you know, a very good portion of songwriters do, um, you know, because I'm sure a lot of them would be you know at pains to point out that something isn't generated, or at least in in total, you know what I mean? So it's kind of um, but you know, if you're if you're sort of relying on goodwill and and and trust, it's yeah, it's a bit tenuous to say the least.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

I suppose really then the ultimate question from that then becomes do you think that we'll ever reach a point whereby, you know, technology and legislation can actually fuse together at some point in the future? I know a little bit way off it yet, but in order to support that sort of deeper recognition and remuneration for rights holders when their pre-existing copyrights are used within new copyrights. So instead of, let's say, I don't know, boycotting tools like Suno, they exist in a new ecosystem that respects data that it trains on and actually recognises fragments of use within new recordings and then credits the original rights holders. I know we have to have the technology in order to get there, and that's probably going to come before legislation anyway. But do you think it's possible, Robin?

SPEAKER_01 28:12

I think the answer is yes, but it's basically only if the sort of um the structures and economic frameworks that are being built at the moment can catch up with the technology. I think to me, honestly, it feels like it's we're already at the stage where it's somewhat comparable to Napster.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Yeah in the early noughties, you know, because except this time, the assets that are being copied aren't files, they're basically creative DNA. So it's uh it's a tough one. I think the scraping's already happened, basically, and um we can't put the genie back in the bottle, so it becomes now like can can we build a fair system on top of that? I think with Napster, it was very well known that it took too long to respond, and then it was essentially or ultimately artists that paid the price for that. Um so I think yeah, like licensing, provenance, rights infrastructure, it needs to become mandatory and and sort of um machine readable before the economics collapse, not after, basically.

Campaign Rollouts And Artist Trust

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Yeah, uh the recognition leads to then building a model to license it, doesn't it? I suppose it's a bit of a way to go, isn't it? But that but things are moving so quickly that it's so hard to keep up with sometimes. Um let's let's talk about um campaign rollouts. So what what sort of differences are you seeing in sort of marketing tactics now compared to say a decade ago?

SPEAKER_01 29:45

I think there's been a sort of um a bit of a switch in terms of I think we've gone from artists looking to labels for sort of scale and um to amplify them to labels looking to artists for sort of integrity and uh trust, you know, you know, audience trust.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Um so yeah, I think that's there's a lot of different factors that have got into that. I think you know the pandemic obviously was an interesting time because suddenly there was you know a scarcity of of product um in the marketplace, so they kind of had to become a bit more looking at the sort of stories and narratives around artists and sort of long-form content and things like that. You know, it's kind of as as again to you know, not to keep going on about AI, but it it's uh it's a very big part of the conversation right now. I think it's like, you know, now anything is sort of you know infinitely scalable very, very, very, very quickly for basically anybody. But the scarcity is coming in integrity, as I said, and sort of and that connection between an art, an artist and and their audience. So I think it's sort of you know, it's becoming well, it's already become, you know, much more sort of um targeted, much more um about building, you know, context and and you know, storytelling around around the artist and around campaigns. Um at least that's that's what I've been seeing. And I think on the catalogue side, which is mostly where I'm involved, it's it's actually been a really positive thing, I would say. Um it's kind of it's it's forced uh the industry to sort of become a bit more um you know, kind of creative around how we celebrate these types of you know legacy artists or products.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

Yeah.

Catalogue Storytelling And Jose González

The Next Shift: Mystique Over Always-On

SPEAKER_01 31:42

And it's not just like, oh, let's stick out another reissue or whatever. And now it's you know one of the main artists um that I'm involved with at the moment is Jose Gonzalez. Um and I worked with him and his team on the uh on the 2023 uh anniversary reissue of his veneer album. And that was a really great experience because we sort of decided early on that you know the campaign was about the album, but really we were celebrating Jose and his story, and so you know, we did a really nice um, you know, physical uh you know double album with a with a live set as well. Um we commissioned some new remixes from some sort of contemporary artists to reimagine the tracks, and we you know, we said we had Logic 1000, we had Bibbio um and Portico Quartet do sort of versions of his songs, and it was great because you know they were all big Jose fans and it sort of opened up different audience segments for him as well, I think. But overall, you know, I take when it comes to you know catalogue marketing, I take the attitude of like a rising tide lifts all ships. So if there's anything that I can do or you know that we can do to you know uh increase visibility for the artist and you know kind of provide growth, even if it's not directly related to the assets that we're specifically, you know, managing, then I nearly always do it because it's sort of a no-brainer, and then there's always knock on effects. If the front line starts doing well, then the catalogue starts doing well. And and and you know, if the catalogue's being well promoted and there's new new releases coming out, that also has a positive impact. So it's a real nice sort of symbiotic thing, and that's something that I'm you know increasingly seeing as an opportunity, I think, um, on the catalogue side of things is sort of you know fundamentally looking at legacy and and you know and working that side of the catalogue, but then doing it in collaboration with um you know the artists and and if there's any you know labels or licensees involved or whatever, um to sort of just drive overall growth for the artist in general. Um so yeah, so that's kind of on my side, like where I where I've what I've been seeing over the last few years. But then it's it's interesting, isn't it? Because I I think that you know, sort of in the same way that music culture of music itself has a way of sort of reacting to things and and that have come before and new generations sort of wipe the slate clean, um, you know, thing like punk and then post punk and whatever it might be. Um it kind of I feel like it's it kind of works the same way in marketing, you know. So it's for quite a long time as I've sort of been mentioning there, there's this like very much sort of behind the curtain is a is a positive thing, and let's let's let the artist direct connect, you know, connect directly with the fans and and all this stuff, which is you know, for the right artist and the right campaign, it's a fantastic idea. I'm starting to get the sense that maybe it's reached saturation point though, because there with anything, you know, once it becomes formulaic, then it can start to feel you know a bit tired and a bit performative. Right. If you know what I'm saying, and and so I'm starting to just sense a little change, and and you know, I wouldn't put it this way, I wouldn't be surprised if in the relatively near future things take a shift again and go back to slightly more kind of label-led campaigns and and artists sort of try and reclaim a little bit of that mystique, you know, the the whole that association that people have with the old industry, you know, of mystique and and and so on, which has been very much sort of like a no-no recently.

Closing Reflections And Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 35:39

But you know, yeah, I just that's my that's no, it's really interesting, Robin. Can I just say, like, you are so knowledgeable, man. Like, no wonder you're so popular. Yeah, honestly, it's amazing. Is that that I mean, there's many things that you you're saying that was kind of nodding along with going, crikey, this guy knows his onions. Um, but uh cheers me. Oh, yeah, yeah, it's true. But that last point's very interesting, right? So the idea of kind of campaign marketing coming back over sort of brand marketing, if you think about social media, it's basically brand marketing. I know loads of managers that'll that really like come down hard on their artists of like, don't just post when you release, like be on there, be on there. And then a lot of artists come to me and I go, Oh god, I don't know what to post. I'm sick of this, it's not me, I'm not funny, I don't want to be on TikTok. And and actually, all that falls in line with the previous point you just made, right? Operating in seasons and off-seasons. It's not a coincidence that record companies have been doing that for decades, you know, pooling resources into particular points of the year where they really need them the most is what gives them impact. So, you know, but perhaps perhaps that might be a way a way forward. Um I'm I'm I'm mindful of time, Robin, but I I am I'm enormously grateful to you for your insight here. You know, I I I just uh it's brilliant, right? It's fascinating for me to listen to the things that you're saying because there's so much experience, there's so much knowledge, and your knowledge is not okay, it's informed by your past, but it's not preoccupied by your past. Your knowledge is right now in 2026, and you're an absolute asset to anybody that works with you, mate. You really are. Oh, cheers, man. Appreciate it. Yeah, yeah. Thank you very much. Thank you for joining me on the podcast here today, Robin. I really appreciate it, and it'd be great to talk to you again at some point in the future.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

Of course. No, it was my pleasure, Johnny, and uh yeah, great to meet you.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

Oh, pleasure to meet you too, Robin. What a dude. Um, wow, you know, there are so many things I I can just tell that there's certain things that Robin said there in that interview that I'm gonna come back to in future episodes, especially the mention of C2PA. Go and have a look at who they are, everybody. I'm gonna return back to that subject uh later in the podcast um on another episode. But um, yeah, fascinating guy, right? Some of the things that he uh he outlines there. Absolutely superb. It's very important, everybody, to be thinking long term about um, you know, especially in this world, right? Everything's very instant, isn't it? Nobody's fault, right? It's just it's technology, it's the times we're in. But the point is that we have to look ahead, right? We have to look ahead to, you know, let's say you know uh having a song optimised for this and that, it's done there, it's gone on this editorial place, it's been synced. Wow, wow, wow, look brilliant. But you've got to think about how you're gonna collect on that, what that value looks like, especially if you sell it again one day. You might not be planning to do that right now. But later down the line, you might need to know about that. And then somebody like Robin who comes along with that kind of knowledge that's so detailed, so now, so resourceful, so useful. So I am thrilled that I managed to meet him, to track him down and to have him on the podcast to share with us some of the things that he knows about, because they are of paramount importance to music creators and to music executives, people from all over the world. Anyway, thank you, Robin. Uh, thank you for being here with me today, everybody. Have a great day ahead, and may the force be with you.

SPEAKER_02 39:06

The music, business already. The music, business already.