Episode 101: How Independent Artists Build Funding Without Giving Away Ownership

When you approach crowdfunding with a plan, it becomes one of the most powerful tools an independent artist can use to fund an album, a tour, a music video, or the next career step without handing over control.

I am joined by Ella Kuijpers and Remy Van Leeuwen, the founders of Crowdable; a crowdfunding platform built specifically for music. Remy and Ella kindly explain why their work is as much about hands on strategic support as it is about raising capital, and what “success” looks like behind the scenes. We talk through the practical mechanics that many artists miss: setting a realistic funding goal, building a clear project page with video and story, choosing rewards you can actually deliver, and communicating with urgency across socials, newsletters, and gigs.

One of the most useful frameworks they share is the three group rollout: start with close friends and family to create momentum, then widen to peers and existing fans, and only then reach future fans who do not know you yet. We also get into the emotional side, including the fear of asking for money, and how to reframe a donation as giving supporters a real chance to be part of the work. Along the way, we place music crowdfunding in the wider UK music industry funding landscape as a tool that can sit alongside grants, distributor deals, and label investment, while also proving you have an engaged fan base.

If you’re planning a crowdfunding campaign or wondering whether it can fit your artist business model, you’ll leave with a clearer strategy and fewer pitfalls. Subscribe, share this with an artist friend, and leave a review with the project you’d crowdfund next.

https://www.crowdable.co.uk/

Transcript

Welcome And Why Funding Matters

SPEAKER_02 0:15

Hello, and welcome to the Music Business Buddy with me, Johnny Amos, podcasting out of Birmingham in England. I'm the author of the book, The Music Business for Music Creators. I'm a music creator myself. I'm a music industry consultant, an artist manager, and also a senior lecturer in both music business and music creation. Wherever you are and whatever you do, consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of the community that is around it. My goal is to inspire and educate music creators from wherever they are in the world in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. Okay, so I am joined this week, everybody, by Remy and Ella from Crowdable. Um I am very, very, very fascinated by what crowdable do. Think of crowdfunding but for music, right? So, you know, crowdfunding, okay, nothing new about it, but it has evolved, right, in recent years. Uh-huh. And it's become a very, very, very important and perhaps even sometimes overlooked piece of the music industry. Especially when, you know, artists need money, right? And there's a few different ways of getting out, and sometimes it has to come out of your own pocket or whatever it might be. But but creating a project on Crowdable is a way to fund a project in music, and it most certainly should not be overlooked. So I reached out to Crowdable and I talked to their two owners and I asked them all about what it is and how an artist sets up a project and how it works and what to think about and what the pitfalls are and all that kind of good stuff. And I'll tell you, it's a very positive outcome. So I'm gonna play the interview

Meet Crowdable And Their Approach

SPEAKER_02 1:49

now. Ella and Remy, welcome to the music business buddy. I'm thrilled you're here. How are you both?

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Yeah, thank you. We're also very excited to to be here. Uh we're doing well. Uh the sun is shining outside. It's uh it's a good day. And um yeah, like um it's the first time we're we're doing a podcast, so it's uh it's uh it's an exciting new thing for us. Wow, this is this is a crowdable exclusive.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Exactly. Wow. Hey, I'm I'm I'm honored. I uh I didn't know that. Um so wow, okay. That that's that's good. Okay, I'll take that. I'll take that. Um so Leska, I I'm fascinated by by what you've built. Um it it didn't come out of nowhere, right? Because you both come from, you know, uh, you know, an economic or funding background. Ellie, you come from a kind of funding background and and Remy, you've music management on your side, Remy. And so between you, right, you've kind of got like this well set up to be able to kind of understand where it sits in the wider picture of things. Um, would I be correct in saying that what you've built is just as much about kind of strategic support as it is about raising capital? Is that is that accurate?

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Yeah, that's that's really accurate actually, because it's uh the the support that we give is a really important part, uh, we believe of crowdfunding because um crowdfunding can be quite a tricky thing to do, you know. It's um it doesn't always uh it's it's not always a success when you start a crowdfunding campaign. Uh, but when you do it the right way, you have a much higher chance of actually making it to your funding goal. And uh we have a lot of expertise in crowdfunding, and um for us it's really important that an artist really you know is successful in in making it to their to the funding goal that that's that they set out at the beginning of a campaign. Um, and that's important to us because we just love music and we want to help artists uh you know make their projects a reality. And um uh for us it's fairly important to when they start a campaign to also make it successful, and uh we do that by offering advice. And um, yeah, that's that's so that's really as important as just the the other stuff that we offer, like the platform and the sort of digital infrastructure of the of Crowdable.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Yeah, yeah, that that that makes a lot of sense because I think it ha it it it's helpful, right, to have that because um you know people can click a button and kind of you know invest in something or donate, but you know, it it that's kind of only a part of it, isn't it, really? You know, I mean a lot of artists you know that that may not know much about what you do or how this works might just think that it's a case of like posting a link and kind of just hoping that things will work.

What A Successful Campaign Takes

SPEAKER_02 4:45

But you know, what what does a uh like a successful campaign look like to you behind the scenes?

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Yeah, well, uh I think it's true that some artists do believe like it's it's very simple that by um uh creating a campaign and posting a link is enough, but it's it's quite a lot of work to do a crowdfunding campaign. There's there's much more to it. Um and that's that also happens in the preparation phase and the execution phase as well. Uh so we start giving advice um in the preparation phase, and we believe that every artist or organization who starts a crowdfunding campaign should um apply a certain strategy. And um this means that you have to reach out to certain uh yeah groups of people, and um we divide them in in three different groups. We think that all artists have uh like a group of family and close friends who'd like to donate to their campaign, uh, but also uh like their their bigger network of friends, peers, and colleagues, and then the last group um is uh our future fans, so people you don't know yet, but you're reaching out to through the crowdfunding campaign. And we think that it's it's wise to um uh reach out to these groups step by step. So you start with your family and close friends because they are most likely to donate to your campaign because they know you well, they know what you're working on. Uh so this really helps you take the crowdfunding campaign off the ground. And after reaching this group, you can start reaching out to your peers and colleagues and people who follow you on social media, so also your fans. And this is quite a big group of people, so it takes a lot of time to reach out to all of them. Um it always takes uh some reminders that you have to send out before people actually um donate to your campaign because they want to see a bit more about the behind the scenes or the reasons behind the project. They maybe want to know what uh types of rewards you are offering. Uh but if this group has um donated as well, you maybe have reached um 70% of your funding goal. And after this, you can start trying um reaching new audiences and new fans. Um and yeah, you reach out to these people by maybe some media coverage or by asking friends to post uh about your crowdfunding campaign. Um, and this group will only donate if they see that the crowdfunding is already quite successful and is most likely to be a success or to be um yeah, successfully completed. So you really have to reach out to these groups step by step, and um yeah, we believe that's the quickest way to collect donations in the first phase of your crowdfunding campaign, which motivates other people to uh make a donation as well. Um because people are more inclined to support a campaign if they see that others uh already contributed and yeah, the campaign is doing well.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Um yeah, that that makes sense when you can see right, there's some people already started here, let me add to this. There seems to be a bit more momentum, and yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:32

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

That that makes a lot of mistakes. A lot of a lot of a lot of um that makes a lot of sense. That's what I meant to say. Which is ironic because what I just said makes no sense. Um but um what what would you say are kind of like the biggest because there's I guess like anything, there's ways of like doing things right and doing things kind of like, oh, I wish I'd known that, you know.

Common Crowdfunding Mistakes To Avoid

SPEAKER_02 8:56

What are the common mistakes that you tend to see in artists and and how do people tr try and avoid them?

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Yeah, so sometimes we see that artists approach a campaign a bit too casually, um, that they just don't post a lot about it or they don't mention it to their friends enough, or uh because in reality it's really crucial to convey the urgency of a campaign. Um and your campaign uh should be the most important thing that you're working on at that time. Um that's so you should be communicating about it in all your available channels, so on your social media channels, but also in a newsletter if you have one, and if you're doing a gig, you should talk about it during the uh in between the songs, of course. Um just to make sure that you that everyone around you knows that this is really important to you and that you're 100% focused on this during the duration of the campaign, which is usually about five weeks. Um, because if people don't really feel that you care that much about it, then you know why should they care enough to actually make a donation? So that's a really important thing. And sometimes we see that that that artists take it a bit too lightly, but then we also advise about that. Of course, we say, Hey, you can maybe post a little bit more, or uh you should talk a little bit more about the campaign, or maybe you could you can say this or that, and that's often helps uh with that. Yeah, um, and also we see that sometimes artists feel a bit um scared or embarrassed to ask for donations, which is very understandable, of course. You're asking for money from other people, that's what crowdfunding uh essentially is. Um, but we also always tell them that it's not really about you know asking for money, it's more about giving your audience the opportunity to become a part of this project that you're working on, which is exactly really exciting because as a fan, you don't often have a good opportunity to really become a part of a project or to really uh you know see how the project is uh being made, you know, or um, so that's that's sort of different way of approaching it, and that often helps as well.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Um that's a good yeah, that's a no no I was just thinking actually, there's you know, sometimes where you've got like a you know an axe, a band, a singer, a DJ, whoever, and and and sometimes they might have kind of like family members that say, Look, I really, really want you to do well. Um, you know, can I help you? And and you know, that might be, you know, I know somebody from the music industry who works down the road, or it might be um, you know, some kind of advice which is sent with love but is not always that useful. Uh or or it might be um, you know, can I give you some money? Right? And and actually it's a weird thing to ask, but but I think people are a lot uh there's a lot of people that are actually happy to do that if they know how that money will be spent if they were to give it, you know. Um so that that kind of preparation for um I suppose it's the same in in in asking for a grant or something. It's like in order to get it, you've got to say how you're gonna spend it, how you're gonna use it. Presumably that's a big part of the process here.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Yeah,

Make Your Budget And Purpose Clear

SPEAKER_00 12:10

it is. Um it it should be very clear what you're starting a crowdfunding campaign for because people like to know what you're uh yeah, what their m money is being used for. Um so if you're clear about that, that also um yeah, helps with transparency. And um uh it's also nice for people to know what they are contributing to because they sometimes can see the end results. So if you're, for example, um uh starting a crowdfunding campaign for a live show and there are certain elements in the show that you want to create with the funds of your backers, um then in the end, if the backers uh come to your show and have a ticket, they can see the elements that they uh contributed to with the with the with their donations. So that's really nice for them as well to see or hear or experience the the project that they are part of.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Yeah, yeah. So they can actually get the impact of what they're what they're sort of investing in, I suppose. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Turning Backers Into Real Community

SPEAKER_02 13:18

Um so how should artists be thinking about fan relationships before they launch a campaign?

SPEAKER_00 13:27

Yeah. It's a good question. Uh uh yeah, we believe artists uh shouldn't underestimate the willingness of their fans and and friends to be part of something uh they create and also their willingness to um financially support it. Um because, like you said, a lot of people like to make a contribution uh or want to be part of something, and fans especially are very curious always about uh the next step of the artists that they follow. Um, and it feels very special for them to be able to be part of it through a crowdfunding campaign. So it's a crowdfunding can be a great way to uh capitalize on this and to also create stronger relationships with existing fans but also new fans that you um are able to reach out to with the crowdfunding. Um and I think that uh the artists we already worked with uh also uh realized that this uh relationship they have with our fans is actually very strong. And um I think they kind of well, they sometimes were surprised surprised by the feedback they uh got from their fans uh through the crowdfunding campaign in terms of support in um in yeah, money-wise, like the donations they received, but also uh the the kind messages they received uh from people who responded to their campaigns. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

That's a good point, actually. Yeah, that must be quite touching for artists to be able to say, oh, you know that person that like we don't really know that well because we just spoke to once at that gig. They really seem to get what we're doing and why we're doing it and where we want to take it. And look what they've said. Wow, that's a I would never have known that if I hadn't started this campaign. You know, that's I guess must be all sorts of uh surprising uh things that kind of go beyond a regular expectation with something like that. That's that's very that's very interesting. So

Crowdfunding As Long Term Strategy

SPEAKER_02 15:41

so let's think about this in the wider sort of context, then right, because you know, artists kind of need you know, they need money, right, to be able to do the things that they want to do and to be able to speculate, to accumulate. Um, and if they could activate uh this release model over here, maybe they want to record this music and they know how it wants to sound, they know what producer they want to work with, they know how much it's gonna cost to spend to get it on particular playlists or time spent on you know pushing it to sync agents or whatever it might be. Um, so it's about I think it would be good for people to understand where this sits in the sort of the wider music business models. Um, should artists see this, what you've built, as a sort of one-off tool, or is it more of a sort of long-term strategic thing for them?

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Yeah, so all of our campaigns on our platform are project-based, so meaning that you you're crowdfunding for to fund a one-off project, so it could be a recording or a tour, or you're uh creating a music video, or you need to uh you know um fix your fix some gear that you have, or it can be all kinds of things as long as it's you know music related. Um but and of course, a project helps the artists to take this next step in their career. You know, if you record an EP and you're able to release it you know professionally, then that helps an artist, of course. Uh, but crowdfunding in itself is already uh beneficial because it's basically a five-week-long uh promotion campaign for not only the project that you're working on, but also uh for yourself as an artist. Um, because you can and and also through crowdfunding, you potentially reach new fans who even who've never even heard of you. Uh so in that way, it's it's I we believe doing a crowdfunding campaign is is is often a really good move for an artist in an artist's career. Um and also because after you've done a successful crowdfunding campaign, you've shown to yourself, your audience, and maybe other stakeholders, like uh like you mentioned record labels or or or managers or funding bodies that you have a substantial uh engaged fan base that's invested in your career as an artist, and that's a really good sign, uh, we think. Um and after the campaign ends, it's really also good for as if an artist really nurtures this fan base and to keep them engaged so you can so they can then promote uh the next project or even maybe do another campaign in the future, yeah. Um, so that's really how we think about it. And then yeah, in terms of where sort of crowdable as a platform sits in the wider industry, we feel it's not really um sort of competition for other ways of funding a music project. You know, we sit uh we think we sit alongside funding bodies and label investments and things like that. That's just another way of another tool for artists to use if they need some funding uh for a project. Um yeah, so that's kind of how we look at it.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

Yeah, yeah, that that that's smart because it doesn't uh to me, it doesn't seem like Crowdable needs to sit in an isolated space, but more of a strategic partner as well, right? You know, so kind of like kind of like how match funding works in a way, you know. Um so you know, you can this is the aim of the target on Crowdable, but that there is also going to be coupled with this small advance from this music distributor, and together that and that builds the kind of landscape as to what the artist needs at that time, and it also fits inside that sort of you know, that e that artist-centric model that we're seeing now where artists have more control over their rights and they have the same tools as labels and all that kind of stuff. Um, if there were, you know, an artist, independent artist listening to this uh right now, as they will be, um, and I can thinking that this is this is appealing, this could work for me, you know. Um

Step By Step Launch With Crowdable

SPEAKER_02 19:44

what let's say, for example, they wanted to raise, let's say, I don't know, five thousand pounds. Um, it's quite a lot of money, isn't it, to raise. But what what would what would be kind of like a a sort of step-by-step approach from kind of nothing to launch? What would that look like?

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Yeah. Yeah, so it usually starts with uh um somebody messaging us uh or um us reaching out to artists uh on conferences conferences, uh and yeah, we have a chat about the idea of the crowdfunding campaign, how crowdfunding works, so we uh kind of explore the basics of a crowdfunding campaign, and um after that we give advice about the certain elements of your crowdfunding. Uh so we help determining the right uh crowdfunding goal, um, but also the funding goal you said, like if it's um maybe um uh five um 5,000 pounds, or maybe you need a little more to uh cover those extra costs, or even the costs of a crowdfunding campaign itself, because you also have to deliver rewards, for example. So we help with that, and after that, we give advice about the um project page you're uh creating on our website on our platform. Um and it it it includes uh a video, uh also a description of your project and a list of all the rewards you're offering. Um after that, um the artists uh uh start collecting the video, the text uh images, and we will assemble the project page. And we always discuss this with the artist so they can uh tweak a little if they want to. Um and after the project page is is finished, they can launch their campaign. And it usually takes about five weeks, and uh during this time we monitor the process, and we have um yeah, a lot of chats and calls with the artists to discuss any questions they might have or uh their plans for the next. Next week of the crowdfunding campaign. So I think at least every week we we check in and have a short call. And yeah, then hopefully the campaign is a success. And if so, people uh then receive the funds and also a list uh with all the contact details of their backers so they can start creating the project, but also engage with uh yeah with their backers and uh afterwards deliver the rewards. Um yeah, so that's that's kind of it in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

No, no, that's that's that's brilliant. Um I you know what you two are so impressive, you know. You really are you are it's like when when I first became aware of of what you've built, it was one of those moments in my mind where I thought, how's no one done that before for music? You know, it's like it's just yeah, it's very often like some of the best ideas, isn't it? It's like, oh, that was staring at us right in the face for years. Why did no one do that until now? You know, it's so clever. It really is. Thank you. But I I think one of the things that I mean it fits into the absolute, you know, the future of the landscape is the next 10 years as to where we're at right now, where things are headed, and where this clicks into it perfectly on so many levels for so many for so many stakeholders, for for artists that want to retain their rights to to have independent control over what they do.

Thinking Like A Project Based Business

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Um, I think do you feel like um one of the key things that helps this further and further is for artists to kind of see themselves as a business asset, right? To be able to kind of go, um, you know, we're not asking someone to be charitable about making my dreams come true, but more so to kind of position this next phase that's missing in my career right now. And the only thing that I need to get that goal done is capital. So if I get it, it puts me there, which then means I can do that and that and that, and you can watch that grow. And that's actually it becomes something very rewardable for somebody that's watching it, that's playing a part of it. Surely that's a part of the tapestry here, is for people to watch that happen.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think yeah, you couldn't have have this you couldn't have described it any better. I think it's it's uh yeah, it's it's a combination of of fans becoming a part of it and then but also helping the artists uh yeah take that extra that next step in their career. Um, but it's also you're asking not sort of for money for yourself, but also for the project, you know, you're doing this really cool project, and uh a backer then uh donates to it and then actually made this project happen, and you and that's something if it's like uh uh pressing a vinyl, you know, they have the final as a reward, and that's something that that uh a fan made happen, and that's such a yeah, such a rewarding thing for any fan, I think. And um and yeah, and crowdfunding is is I mean it's not the the most innovative uh new business model in the music industry, but it's a tried and tested funding model which works if it's done well, and that's what we really believe in, and where we saw this sort of gap in the market, and um hopefully we can we can really add some value with it to to the UK music industry as well.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

Yeah, I think so, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

And it's also like a different type of funding you can use in a certain stage uh of uh yeah of your career or for a certain project. So sometimes it's really nice to see that that artists, uh grassroots artists, really need an album um to be able to go to a label or find a manager. So they uh don't have the money to to create an album or record in the studio. Um so crowdfunding can be a tool to uh yeah, get collect that money to be able to make something that they can help that they can use uh when reaching out to other stakeholders, um which can help them uh yeah go to the next phase in their career, which is really nice uh to see. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

I I think that's the key thing, isn't it? Ella, that what exactly what you just said there, that that that next phase, you know. Yeah. Um I think if if you were to talk to many artists and say, you know, what's what's the goal? You know maybe the answers will be well to make a living from this or to make my music as accessible as possible. And it makes perfect sense, those things are totally possible, but they've got to be done in stages, right? You know, and it's like right to be able to get there, let's go backwards. We need to get there, you need to have an album, you have to cycle into it with some singles, you have to do this, this, this, this, you've got to get the socials right. There's all these things, it's like, whoa, that's a lot, right? Let's just compartmentalize it on a with a scale of like chronology to be able to start here and go that there, that's that's the goal, you know. Yeah, yeah. Um, and and uh what you've built is tailored to exactly that, and and and I think it's wonderful. I really do. I think it's absolutely fantastic. Um, I mean you your your background, both of you individually, your your backgrounds have really helped you to be able to kind of spot the market, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Um

Partnerships Personal Support And Future Tech

SPEAKER_01 27:26

yeah, that's true. I mean, I'm I come from more of a music industry background, having worked with uh, you know, in sort of the record label and and management side of things. And then uh Ella uh used to work for a crowdfunding platform for also arts projects, but also music. And we sort of yeah, combined our expertises to to create this new thing, and it's uh yeah, it's a it's a really nice way to work together as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

Wow, what a combination that is. The two of you, um, with both of your backgrounds individually and what you bring this together, you know, it's wonderful. I mean, it really is. To because the thing is, is uh a part of what you do here, like I like I asked you in that first question, in this right, is like it's it's it's what you bring on an advice level for people because it might be that an artist says, Oh, I'd love to do crowdable, but like I don't know where to start. Like, where what do I need next? I don't even know. And actually, sometimes that could that can be, ah, okay, let's see where you're at. It's this thing here. Oh, yeah, yeah, that would be good. Yeah, let's start it. Oh wow, it's worked. Oh, wow, look what all these people have said about me. This is so lovely. Oh wow, and then it just kind of gives them an enthusiasm, puts that fire inside them, and then says, Yeah, I can do this. And because I've done that, I'm now there, you know. And I can't think of anything that's music-specific where that's really happened before. I know you both know the crowdfunding model from your background, but to have it specifically it positioned in the way that you got it, um, is is just so now, you know, it really is. Um it's great.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Yeah, I think there are many ways to collaborate with different uh stakeholders in the industry, and we already set up some really nice partnerships. Yeah, so it's it's really nice to see that we're yeah, part of the or that we are a body in the industry that uh could collaborate with a lot of different uh stakeholders.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

So yeah, yeah, I think so. I like that word body as well, it's a good word, that isn't it? Um no, no, I said it makes a lot of sense. I mean, especially like when it comes to like the use of um like predictive AI, for example, and and and hedge funds, and like the ability to be able to go, right? There's like 16 projects on the go at the minute, three of those are predicted to grow really quick because of the niche that they're in, and all of a sudden, that then becomes like you know, a hedge fund language, a VC language where people can go, right, let's back that. We'll be you know, uh there's just so many options when you partner this up with greater technology, it's really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Yeah, that's that's uh that's that would be really interesting. Well, the the thing with uh with our platform though is that it's really uh sort of labor intense because we're doing all this this advice that we're giving, this personal advice is um so it's really um to sort of combine that with something that's a bit more tech savvy or like a bit more uh like AI stuff is is uh it might be a bit of a challenge, but you know, there's a lot of opportunities, of course. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, I had to throw AI into the mix, didn't I?

SPEAKER_02 30:34

Sorry, sorry, sorry. No worries. You don't you don't need AI when you got you two because you got the double eye of intelligence for you two. So uh you know you are what makes it what it is, right? Because people come to you and they go, Wow, okay, those guys know what they're doing, you know.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

That's also what what drives us and what motivates us to uh have conversations with artists and to meet them and to hear about their their plans. Uh so for us, every campaign is different, and that's what we like about the work. And yeah, uh, so yeah, I think the personal aspect is really important for a crowdfunding campaign, but it's also really important for us. That's also a reason why we started this, and to be able to work with uh artists, musicians, organizations, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:21

Yeah, totally, yeah. One

Key Takeaways And Closing

SPEAKER_02 31:23

one of the many things that I've taken today from talking to you both is the understanding of the importance, I should say, really, for artists to think about things on a project-by-project basis rather than the sort of longer term goal of like I want to be successful making music. It's more like just think about it in segments, and that kind of compartmentalization is key to this. I think it's it's a bit it's a useful way for artists to work anyway. You know, if if if a booking agent wants to know what an artist is up to, they're gonna send us the next 12 months, what you're doing. You know, it's like it's like, oh, okay, yeah, this clicks into that, and then you know, it's a it's it's perfect. Uh thank thank you both so very, very much for coming and talking to me today. You know, I what I you know, I appreciate I reached out to you and I was like, these guys are great, let's let's get them on. And and I appreciate you like you're not knowing me and just going, yeah, okay, who's this guy? Let's take let's go and talk to him. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Yeah, of course. Yeah, thank you too, of course. Yeah, it's a pleasure. Thank you for inviting us.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

Oh, I know the pleasure is mine. Okay, there you go. I hope you found that useful. Two absolutely fantastic people, right? In Remy and in Ella. Uh, they really care about what they do, and you know, and in in a world full of you know, very uh heavy AI companies, you know, they're kind of the opposite, right? They are people that you can connect with and you can talk to about what you're trying to do and how you can build a project around it and how you can fund it, what the best approaches are to do that. I think this absolutely clicks perfectly into several aspects of the artist-centred ecosystem that now is uh the uh landscape that we know in the modern music industry. Um I think they are a very, very, very important or kind of crucial step in uh combining all of those things. I think that that what they've created is not only brilliant for artists but also brilliant for music for fans that can then connect to that music. Uh they really care about what they do, and I think they're great people, and I think that what they've built is hugely important. So I hope that you enjoyed that. Feel free to reach out and to ask any questions um and reach out to them, right? As I say, they're very good, they're very knowledgeable, and they're really nice, right? And that goes a long way, doesn't it? Okay, anyway, wherever you are, have a great day, and may the force be with you.