Episode 103: What Great Music Producers Actually Do (With TenRoc)

Most music producers spend years trying to be louder, faster, and more impressive in the room. Tenroc argues the opposite;l the real edge is knowing what the song needs, then doing only that. Jonny Amos sits down with the New York songwriter-producer behind work connected to artists like Jon Bellion, Rihanna, the Jonas Brothers and Julia Michaels, and pulls back the curtain on how modern sessions actually function.

We dig into the messy, practical question every producer faces - am I here to write, to build tracks, to programme drums, to play instruments, or to get out of the way? Tenroc explains how he reads the room, protects the creative flow, and builds relationships that last even when the song never gets released. He also shares a personal turning point: moving from behind-the-scenes work into putting out an album as an artist, driven by a clear sense of purpose.

If you love craft, you will enjoy the nerdy details. Tenroc breaks down how he learned “commercial” sound through chart study and reverse-engineering, why emotion is often innate, and how tools like GarageBand, Logic Pro and FL Studio shaped his workflow. We also tackle the underrated skill that gets producers paid: finishing songs, using song structure to hold attention, and understanding when a verse, pre-chorus, hook, or bridge should appear.

Finally, we talk music publishing in plain language - what a good publisher actually does, and why taste and collaborator fit matter more than chasing the biggest name on paper. If you want practical music production advice, major label session reality, and a clearer path for artist development, press play, then subscribe, share with a producer friend, and leave us a review.

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Tenrock

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Music Business Body, the podcast decoding how the modern music industry actually works. I'm Johnny Amart, industry consultant, artist manager, producer, educator, and author of the music business for music creators. Every Wednesday I explore the ideas, technology, and industry shifts shaping the future of music. This show helps creators navigate the rapidly changing business of music. Okay, so in this week's session, I am joined by one of New York City's finest 21st century songsmiths, a young man by the name of Ten Rock. If you've never heard of Ten Rock before, as a writer-producer, he has contributed to the careers of people like John Belliant, Rihanna, the Jonas brothers, Julia Michaels. This could be a long list, by the way. He's still only 26 years old, but he has achieved so much. And he is now putting out an album as an artist. He has a fascinating story. It's all captured within the things that I asked him about in this week's interview, and I'm going to play it now. Tenrock, it's good to meet you, man. Really good to meet you. Uh you're in New York, right? Yeah, I'm in New York. I'm in New York, Queens. Oh, wow. Do you know what? It really is my favorite city in the whole world. I love New York.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Um I I absolutely love it too. I can I literally don't see myself ever leaving here. Um people always ask me, like, yo, like, you gotta come to LA or you gotta come to Nashville, you know. And I've been to those cities, they're great. Um, but there's just something about New York that like I think I'm gonna be here for the rest of my life.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'd I'd say that's time well spent. It's in it's a beautiful, special, magnificent place. Um, so no, I don't blame you at all,

Finding Your Role In Sessions

SPEAKER_00 1:58

man. Um, Tenrott, you've you've you've worked with some some big artists, right, across a lot of different genres, um, you know, k-pop and hip-hop and RB, singer-songwriter, but the role of a producer, right? It kind of there's a lot of variables to it, right? When you first kind of go into a session, uh, let's say like with an artist and you're the producer, how do you figure out what your role is creatively with them?

SPEAKER_02 2:25

That's great. Um, I mean, typically what happens is it depends on like who else is in the room, you know. Um, and so I've been in sessions where there's, you know, three, there's two writers, and the artist is also a writer in the room. And then there's another producer that plays keys. And so that those were kind of like the LaRoy sessions. They were kind of like that. And so my role was like, yo, I'm just gonna do the drums. Like, I'm gonna do the drums, I'm gonna do the bass, I'll play guitar, but I'm probably not gonna play keys and I'm probably not gonna write because they're you know, those people are already there. Yeah. Um, then I've had sessions where um, you know, with my buddy Corbin, where we have one other writer, and it's just me and him. And so I'm kind of producing everything and writing, and we have a co-writer, and he writes, and so it it all just depends on, you know, who else is in the room. Um, and I've learned over the years kind of how to like navigate that and and uh just fit in my little puzzle piece.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Okay, interesting. Yeah, because that's a tough one, right? For producers sometimes to kind of go, right? Am I am I writing the song here? Am I am I just laying down some tracks? Am I just gonna mix what those loops you send me? Like what it you know, so um, but I suppose the part of the art form there is kind of trying to balance that and figure it out, you know. Um but you know, I'd say you're doing a fine job of it, sir. So you know thank you, thank you, thank you. Um

Relationships That Outlast A Song

SPEAKER_00 3:54

do you know, for for a lot, there's a lot of people out there that create music that kind of tend to sometimes think that success might come from like one big placement or like you know, uh one whatever a hit record is in this day and age, right? Um, but you know, your your success, you know, your career, let's say, is kind of built on relationships and consistency. Um, what would you say were like the key relationships or habits perhaps that actually moved your career forward behind the scenes? That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

Um I feel like all of the stuff that has moved my career forward has been things that I feel fulfilled, like after I make them. You know, there's some things you work on, and um it's like, okay, cool, that was, you know, that was fun, and and I did that and it was great, and I'm sure it'll be big and like people will, you know, resonate with it. Um, but you don't necessarily feel fulfilled after. And for some reason there's certain projects like that where, you know, after having worked on them, I'm like, man, I really feel like I'm doing what I'm supposed to do, you know. Um, and it's been those projects that have that have moved my my career forward, you know. Um and like you said, even you know, all the connections I make, they've made so many connections that like we meet and we work on songs, and even if those songs don't come out, um, the connection remains. Um and it's it's those sort of connections that have done a ton for for me, you know, as well.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, because you might be with the right people um and you just didn't get the song you were looking for that day, but it doesn't mean you're not gonna get it another day with those same people.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Yeah.

From Producer To Artist Calling

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Um you're um you know, you're a you're a producer that's that's moved, you know, this year into being the artist, right? Um that must be really exciting. Um is was that always like a part of the plan?

SPEAKER_02 6:00

It's funny that it it was it was really never it was really never a part of the plan. Um I love just being behind the scenes, I love you know, no one really knowing who I am, just being able to like make a ton of really sick, cool sounding things, and then just like sending the artist up with it. Like, all right, yo, I I gave you some heat, like go do your thing, you know, go tour and do all these interviews and do your thing. It was never really in my plans. Um, but there was one day last year that um I had been driving and I felt God speak to me in my spirit, um, and he basically commanded me to make an album. Um an album that was you know, speaking and and and singing about him in a really explicit manner, and so saying, you know, Jesus and God, not these like generic songs that are just inspirational. God told me to make songs about him, um, and that people so people would know that they're about him.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Wow, that's powerful. Yeah, gee. Okay, so you had to be the person to carry that as opposed to, you know, finding another vehicle or another lane for it. Interesting.

Emotion Versus Radio Ready Sound

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Wow. Your work as let's say as a producer as as as well as as well as an artist, you know, you your productions feel very kind of um emotional and and kind of cinematic, but also they also sound very kind of commercially competitive, of course, right? What what is your process for kind of trying to get that balance right between, you know, that that sort of uh trying to get the emotion in, but also trying to get that slick, glossy kind of sound. Like that must be tough. You you do a really good job of it. Like, is there any kind of has that be just been a years of like, you know, working hard, or did you kind of if you stumbled across a little formula that you feel works in different ways, you know, in different places?

SPEAKER_02 7:55

Yeah, that's that's such a great question. I feel like um I feel like the emotion part has sort of always been there. Um, even like when I was younger and making these sort of like unfinished like scraps of ideas, um, they always felt emotional because I think that is something that's just embedded in somebody. Um the commercial part of it is something that I had to build and like practice a lot. Um, and so like when I was younger, you know, I started producing on a MacBook when I was seven years old, was like the first time I I actually began producing in in Garage Band. Um, what I would do is I would spend hours on end, like every single day, just looking at the charts, looking at the pop charts, and recreating those sounds like one for one, like trying to make them sound as close as possible, mix-wise, sound selection-wise. And so I think it was kind of the years of doing that that built that commercial thing of like me being able, like in my mind, like, oh, like this is how a radio song should sound and feel, this is how the drums should hit, this is how loud the bass should be. Like just kind of recreating other people's hits has given me that sort of instinct. Um, but I think the emotion was always there. It's just now I'm able to sort of uh you know merge the two and apply them together. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

You were that's really interesting. You were seven years old doing that on Garage Band. Seven, yeah. That's crazy. I think that sets some kind of new record. That's maybe I'll tell you what, I wasn't doing that when I was seven years old. Wow, that's crazy, man. Um wow, and so you were kind so that's because it all kind of started with like back engineering, then, right? How do I make that sound like that? And that's what set you up. Wow, that's so interesting. A thousand percent. Yeah. Wow, okay. So then it's like you develop your taste as a result of kind of replicating something else that you've heard and going, I like that, I know how to do it. I now know how to do that myself in other ways.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Wow, that's exactly goodness me. And then it just got out of hand, and billions of streams later, you got a lot to answer for. It just got out of hand. Wow. Do you know what? It's all got to start somewhere though, right? And um, but I've just never heard anybody say, Yeah, seven years old garage band. Like, wow, man, that's amazing.

GarageBand Beginnings And DAW Choices

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Yeah, and and it was it was awesome. I mean, like, my dad is still in this role, he but he does tech, he's like into tech. And at the time he was working at uh this TV network, and he would bring home computers, he'd bring home MacBooks, laptops that he had been working on. Like people would bring him, you know, laptops like this doesn't work. Can you fix it? Um, and so the company would let him sort of use the laptops, and one day he comes home with a MacBook and he just gives it to me. He's like, Hey, you know, if you want to like watch YouTube on this or whatever, you can you know mess around with it. Um and I opened it, I found GarageBand and I was like, what is this thing? I opened it up, and um, you know, GarageBand, they have a ton of loops and sounds built into it that you can use to sort of make beats and and put loops together and you know, make little compositions. And so I started doing that. Um, and I was like, whoa, I can like make songs in this thing. That my seven-year-old brain was like, and at the time I had been listening to a ton of Justin Timberlake and you know, Timberland produced stuff, Pharrell produced stuff at that time. Um, and so I started to remake that stuff. I started to remake like the Katy Perry things once that came out. I was really into pop music as a kid, and so those naturally were the things I was recreating and and gravitating towards. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

So did so that that laptop then that that your your dad gave you and said, hey, you know, maybe watch YouTube or whatever. And uh so did that laptop, did it have to get like worked on, reconditioned, and go back to somebody else, or did you get to keep it?

SPEAKER_02 12:09

I got to keep it. I got to keep it for several years. Um and then he and then we swapped and he gave me a newer one when I was like 12 or something, and so I got a newer MacBook Pro and it just kept going. He kept giving me like, hey, like I think you know, is that one getting a little slow? He's like, all right, just you take this one. And so then I started using Logic. Um when I was like 10 or 11, I started using Logic Pro. Um, and I've literally been on Logic Pro ever since. I just turned 26 and I've been using Logic Pro for like over a decade.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

It's really fun. Wow, that's so cool. I was just I just had pictures in my mind then of like, you know, some some guy on the other side of New York get his laptop back. Yeah, thank you very much. It's been fixed now, and then all of a sudden, this like bombshell drops on him, this Eureka beautiful moment where he says, Tenrock, you learned how to produce on this thing, right? I'm gonna keep this old machine. Okay, that's insane. I wonder where it is. That's crazy. Wow, that's so exciting. I love things like that. That's brilliant. Yeah. Um, do you like do you do stuff on other DAW software now, or do you just solely work in Logic?

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Yeah, so in the past like five or six years, I've been using FL Studio as well. Like in addition to it, um, FL Studio just has like whatever sound cards it uses, um, and like the clipper, the soft clipper in it, it makes the drums sound really, really good, especially like for rap and hip-hop. Um, I'm typically gonna use that. If I if you ever see me like make a rap song or like a hip-hop record, it's probably the drums have probably been made in FL.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Interesting. Okay, so then so let's say you've done that process in FL. Would you like bounce those out of there and put them back in Logic as audio to to carry on working on a mix and stuff? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Bounce the stems, throw them in logic. Nowadays I sort of have some workarounds to how to get the clipping sound of FL in Logic. And so I've been using Logic a little more alone. Um like I haven't used FL in a little while. Um, but you know, there's there's tricks. It's just like all clipping and saturation and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Okay, you're still back engineering, you can't let that seven you're gonna.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

Every single day, every single day, I'm back engineering. Always.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Yeah, always wow. That's so cool. I love that. Uh thank you for uh like an insight into your process as well. It's really interesting to know that.

Major Label Sessions Need Restraint

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Um, what tell me something about like um about major label sessions or working with like top artists that newer producers might misunderstand, you know, like something around the creative process because you're involved with uh so many different processes, right? Like I was reading about uh John Bellion's wash and like how many different people were in that process. It's like you obviously you understand, like, right, I'm gonna click in here because that's what's needed here. Over there, I'm gonna click in there, and that's what's needed there, right? But is there anything like about those kind of sessions that you go into that might be useful to know for like younger emerging producers?

SPEAKER_02 15:20

Yeah, um, I think an important thing is actually just that is like learning how to fit where you fit and um you know not not uh imposing on the session. Um because I think early on, like a big thing is like wanting to prove yourself and like wanting to be like, yo, like I'm good, I'm good at what I do. Like I want people to understand that and see like what I can do. Um but that's not that's usually not like what it requires, what the song requires to be good. Sometimes a song requires like the minimum, like for Wash, like I did the drums and we had the chords, and then I kind of just sat back and I'm like, let me let him just flow and find and find what it is, you know. And a lot of times working with Belly and it's awesome, um, because his mind is just insane, and he'll have all these really weird ideas that kind of take a long time to get to. Um, but at the end of them, it's worth it. Um, but you have to be willing to kind of just like sit back and ride it out, you know. And that's something that when I was younger, I probably wouldn't have understood, and I didn't when I was starting sessions. I just wanted everything to go quick and like I wanted to do everything myself. I wanted people to see how sick I was, you know, how all my talents and all this. When really it's like, let me just sit back and like kind of just wait and see what the room needs, you know. Right. That pace it's patience, really.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very, very, very good point. Um, yeah, because you play like a lot of different instruments, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:00

I do. So I played guitar, bass, drums, and keys. Um, it's so funny. Last week I just started learning trumpet. So I'm I'm I'm learning trumpet now. It's going really well, too. Wow. Um did you say just last week?

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Yeah, last week I started learning trumpet. Yeah. Jeez, that's that's such an unusual sentence. Last week I started learning trumpet. Yeah. Yeah. So I just pick it up real quick, right? Just be one of those people that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Yeah, and I also have this. Um, I got this too. A violin. And so sometimes I'll put this on records. I'm really bad at it. Like I'm really bad at playing it, technically. Um, but I can like get what I need, sort of like in a pinch. If I just need like stabs or something, I can just do it. You know, my mic's right here.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

And so I just have like all this stuff in here, you know. That's interesting. That do you know? I had a conversation um on here a few weeks back with a couple of uh like TV composers from Bleeding Fingers, you know, Hans Immers guys, and uh and they were talking they were talking very, very, very similarly to you in that regard. They were like, they got loads of stuff around them because they're under such pressure to kind of like make sounds original, you know. Um, and so they would like sample like you know, like a clarinet and then put it inside serum too as like a wavetable and all this kind of. I was like, whoa, that's interesting. So if you pluck something on there and you just want to chuck it into a sampler and get it to where you want to go, then yeah, then only you, only you has got that sound, right? No one else has got that sound.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Exactly, and that's how you get that unique, you know, that unique stuff that people are like, what's what patch is that? And it's like you can't get it. Like, I I made that patch, you know. That's the stuff that I that nerd stuff, I really love that.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Yeah, that's very, very interesting. Um, okay, so um, so let's let's let's leap back in

Start Today By Learning Song Structure

SPEAKER_00 19:04

time. Final question, right? So if you were to, I'm trying to think of the best way of phrasing this, right? Because you you're young, but you started such a long time ago. Um, you know, so um if you were to start out as a producer like today, like this year, 2026, and start from like nothing, no contacts, no credits, no industry access, nothing, like what would your strategy be like going from like the very beginning? What would you start with as a producer? That's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

Wow, that's a great question. Um I suppose um I'd probably start with just learning about songs, um and so like learning about song structure that's something I use that is like I believe what makes me a good producer. It's not like my like I play instruments and that's great and stuff, but um just over the years working with the people I've been working with, I know about song structure, and so like I know what a verse is, I know what a chorus is, I know what a bridge is, I know when those things are needed in a song, I know when a song is too long, I know when a song feels too short, um, and so it that is like that's priceless stuff. Like you can't really teach that. And so I would probably study that before I, you know, obviously you're you're making your drafts and everything. Um but the thing for me when I was starting is that I was really good at making stuff that sounded cool, but I didn't know how to finish a song. Like I didn't I just didn't know like how to finish one. So all my songs were like a minute long. Um and it wasn't until I started doing sessions and you know working with Bellion that he was like, yo, like the thing that gets you paid is knowing how to finish songs because not many people know how to finish songs. Everyone knows how to start a song, not many people know how to finish. And so I would study that. I would I would kind of focus on that, you know, while creating.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

That's very interesting. Yeah. Do you know I'm just thinking about um some of the younger artists and producers that I'm around sometimes, and that is a big barrier for them, actually. You know, I've yeah, they might have like an A and a B, and it's like a minute long, and it sounds great, and it's got all the potential in the world, but it just sits on the desktop don't doing nothing because it's like, how do you get it from that into like that next thing? So actually, song structure, yeah, that's a very, very good point. Very underrated skill, in fact.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Song structure is like huge and it takes maturity, which it's it sounds like exaggerated, and it's like, dude, you just finish it, it's really not that simple, you. Know, like a lot of hit records are hit records because of the structure and because of the way the pre comes in and the hook comes in, and then if it were to go into a post, you would lose people's attention. So sometimes you have to go right back into V2. It's like things like that, you know, that are just priceless. And you know, I'm grateful enough to have learned them early on, you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Yeah, yeah, very, very, very good point. Um, actually, I I can I ask you one more question?

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Please.

What A Music Publisher Should Do

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Um, okay, it's about music publishing because it's a subject that um I get a lot of questions about because a lot a lot of people get kind of confused about like what music publishers do and whatnot, you know. Um, could you talk to us about what your expectations are of a music publisher? You know, is it just solicitation and setting up collaborations? Is it help with collection? Is it an expectation on sync exploitation? You know, what what are the things that you sort of expect from a music publisher?

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Yeah, I mean, for me personally, um, just so you know, I'm not really like into like the business side of things. Like, I kind of am just solely, I'm very creative. And like I love my team, I love my manager because I'm like, yo, can you just handle that? Like, I just want to cook, you know.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Um great sentence. Yeah, yeah, I just want to cook. But the thing that Americans are so much better with language than we are. Like, I just want to cook. Like, I know what you mean. Yeah, but like I just want to cook. Uh like the way that we say that though, is like, oh, I'm so sorry. Like, would you mind just helping out with that little bit there, just while we work on this thing? And you just say, I just want to cook. Like, that's so much trouble.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

I just want to cook. Like, you deal with that over there. I'm trying to cook, bro. And so, but I will say something that I admire in a publisher is them having a good ear. Having a good ear and being able, you know, and not just looking at who's big and like, yo, you know, I let's set up a session between you and this person. They're huge, like it'll be great. That doesn't necessarily mean we would work together. It doesn't mean our sounds would mesh well together. It doesn't mean our processes are compatible. And so having someone that is like, they've seen how other people they've seen how other people work, they've seen how you work, and they're like, oh, wow. These two people would be insane because you're a lyric guy, he's a melody guy, he's you know, he plays guitar, you play keys, it's so things like that were like it's not just cutting dry and going by stats of like, yeah, well, you know, he's huge, like just work with him. Or like he just did this song, like work with him. I've done sessions like that, and then it's been like I actually hated that. I didn't I I probably am not gonna work with that person again because our processes didn't really mesh well, you know, we were clashing a little bit. Um, but it's been people that like aren't necessarily the biggest writer in the world, um, but just we work really well together because of the processes we have, because of the inclin inclinations we have, because of our instincts melodically and or lyrically, you know, they just fit together. And so having someone, you know, a publisher that is able to discern that and be like, oh, I've seen how these two people work. I think they would make magic together. Having someone that understands that aspect of it is huge to me.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

That's a very good point. Yeah, yeah. That it takes a certain amount of thoughtfulness there, right? Not just like names on paper, but like, I think they get on well as people, you know. Exactly. Just as people, I think they'd get along. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I bet they say about you? I bet I bet they say, just let him cook. Let him cook. Just let me cook. Let me cook. Make him a cup of coffee, get that laptop open and let him cook. Let me cook. That's it. I mean, that's literally it. That's the quote of the year, man. I love that quote. I just want to cook. Facts.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Facts,

Closing Thoughts On Being Good Company

SPEAKER_01 26:13

facts.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Um, Ted, I know you're a busy boy, so I'll I will let you go, but before I do, I want to say a massive thank you to you, right, for your contribution here today. Um, and um, and good luck, right, with with the album, with everything you're doing, and um and just you know, keep being you, man. You're great. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me for real. This was fun. Oh, pleasure. Oh, what a lovely dude. Do you know what you can see, can't you, why so many people want to have him in on their session, right? Not only is he absolutely superb musically, of course, but he's such a great guy, right? And that should be a lesson to everybody, shouldn't it? You know, he is the guy that you want in the room, not just because of what he can do, but because of who he is, right? A fine example for us all. Uh, anyway, that's enough from me today. I hope that you enjoyed that interview. I know I certainly enjoyed talking to him. I had a lot of fun. I hope you did too. Until next time, have a great day, and may the force be with you.