Episode 104: What Sustainable Artist Development Really Looks Like (With John Hart)

Most artists don’t fail because they lack talent. They fail because they rush, chase the wrong signals, or hand over control before they understand what they own. I’m joined by John Hart, A&R consultant and artist management specialist, for a straight-talking look at what sustainable artist development really means in today’s music industry.

We get specific about what a good manager looks for and it’s not “who might get a hit”. John explains why he backs long-term career potential, why songwriting still sits at the centre of modern revenue, and how authenticity is built through clear identity rather than rigid genre rules. We also dig into audience thinking: who your fans are, what they value, and how that should shape everything from your visuals to your live strategy.

From there we go deep on deal structures and rights. We talk publishing deals that fund recording, working with producers as true creative partners, and why keeping control of masters can open up options later through licensing deals, catalogue value, and smarter investment. We also cover the unglamorous money: neighbouring rights, mechanicals, and metadata, plus the mistakes artists make by releasing too early and treating Spotify like a shop instead of a discovery platform. We finish with the big shifts ahead, including AI, market fragmentation, and the resilience you need to survive rejection and keep moving.

If you’re building a serious independent music career, hit subscribe, share this with an artist mate, and leave a review. Which part of your career needs a clearer plan right now?

Transcript

Welcome And Why John Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Music Business Body, the podcast decoding how the modern music industry actually works. I'm Johnny Amort, industry consultant, artist manager, producer, educator, and author of the music business for music creators. Every Wednesday I explore the ideas, technology, and industry shifts shaping the future of music. This show helps creators navigate the rapidly changing business of music. Okay, I've got a treat for you this week, a very insightful conversation with a man by the name of John Hart, uh, who is an AR consultant and artist management specialist. Uh, guys, I'm gonna level with you about something. John Hart is one of the first guests that I ever wanted to get on this podcast. And just over two years into it now, I've finally got him on as a guest. He's a busy boy, right? This is how much I trust him. When I wrote the book, The Music Business for Music Creators, I needed to kind of get like a fact checker, right? Somebody that just when the book was finished, go over it, right, and just make sure that everything that I said in that book was kind of like, is that right? Is that accurate, etc., right? I mean, I was kind of hoping it would be the case, but nevertheless, hiring a fact checker when you write a book is actually quite a good thing, right? Uh, and so I brought in John, right? That is how much I trust him. Uh, as you'll see from the conversation today, he and I are pals, we have been for many years, we get on very well. We talk a lot, right? We talk a lot about, well, we talk a lot about football, but I won't bore you about that. We talk a lot about the music industry, we compare notes over the uh the artists that we manage, we talk about new deals, new deal structures, all sorts of different things, new technologies, AI, all sorts of different things. He's a fascinating guy, and he's finally on the music business, buddy. I hope that you enjoy this conversation. I'm gonna play it now. John Hart in the house. At last, you are here. Hello, mate. At last, hello, mate. Good to see you. Yeah, good to see you too, man. John, I really appreciate you doing this because you know, I know what a busy boy you are, and uh, you know, and I never, you know, I've tried and tried to get you on. I know it's like it's hard, right, to find the time and stuff, but uh you are one of the most knowledgeable and valuable people I know, right? You are so lovely. It's true, man. It's true. Um, so thank you for uh for joining me. There's loads of things we could talk about, John, right? Because, you know, but if you think about some of the things that you really specialise in, you know about a lot of stuff, but like artist development, artist management, these are things that you kind of like, you know, moved into as your career's progressed. Um, so uh, you know, you you are currently uh managing uh how many artists for?

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Yeah, it's kind of a shifting thing, actually, because I I have a solid art roster, but I also do sort of consultancy management

What Modern Management Looks Like

SPEAKER_01 3:00

on on kind of so not ongoing, but you know, consultancy for a set period of time. So my current roster is four artists on a kind of more standard management roster, but then I'm also consulting on a couple of other projects as well. So one's a short-term project and one is a longer-term project. So in that and constant in that instance there, I would probably call myself, and the artist would probably call myself their manager, but it's not quite the same setup, basically.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Yeah, yeah. Nothing's ever easy and straightforward in this business, is it?

SPEAKER_01 3:30

No, it's not, but you know, I think it's probably we're probably going to talk about this quite a bit. I think one of the problems is that artists want things in so many different ways. And I think artists are very often skeptical of what management is or might be. They're very often ill-informed about what it is and and what people like us do. So um it's kind of understandable in the modern environment, really, that people would kind of look to vary and change that and chop it up. And you know, in the same way as record deals really have kind of chopped into different sizes and forms, and we went through 60 and 180. You know, I think just management now is about more flexibility.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Yeah, yeah, that's

What Managers Look For Long Term

SPEAKER_00 4:10

it. Yeah, well put. Well, let's go straight in with a question about what you hope to see in an artist. So let's say, for example, because this is a question that I think a lot of artists would like to know the answer to, uh, not just from you, but from a lot of people, really, which is, you know, what do they need to do to get the attention of, you know, a worthy manager that would then be able to look at them and think long term? Like what what you know, what what what kind of things uh, you know, are you looking for in them if you think, yeah, they're worth developing long term?

SPEAKER_01 4:42

I think the I think the key phrase in there is long term. Uh for me personally, it's about looking at that career and thinking, is is this an artist with the potential to have a career in the industry rather than have a hit? Now, that that's very much about horses for courses. There are different management styles, different managers, different artists. I'm not that manager at all who will go for, okay, big hit, smash your bust, you know. I'm more about long-term sustainable career growth. But that that kind of fits in more with where my career came from and also my kind of my approach to the music industry. So most, in fact, all of the artists I think I manage are essentially, you would you'd put them in that DIY camp, but I'm always a little bit skeptical about that. They are self-releasing artists around which we, i.e., we, the management team and the artists working together, build the right team for that artist to move forward in relation to that career. So that's what we're always looking to do. So I don't like the time the term unsigned or DIY, because I think in the modern industry it's about pulling together the right team of people to do the right thing for that artist to a move forwards, but also thinking about long-term sustainable careers. And that's very much my approach to management. So I never approached anyone for management, they've always come to me. And um I think that key thing, I mean, obviously there's the there's the there's the givens, the talent. Um I'm all about songwriting. I I'm all about songwriting, and all of my artists are, I would say this, wouldn't I, but are all brilliant songwriters because I just think in the modern industry we've got to be able to look into all potential revenue streams and exploit them in in all possible ways and without songwriting being in the in the a part of the picture. Again, that's a different job for a different manager. Um so they're all great songwriters, they're all great performers. Um, they can all perform live solo but with a band, so they have that sort of flexibility. So that they're they're the kind of givens, but then what I'm really looking at is like I say, that sort of ability to uh to envisage what a long career term career looks like. And all of my artists are all about building audiences and building relationships with audiences, um, and and that's the way we go about things.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Yeah, yeah, that that's that's a refreshingly honest answer. I really appreciate you saying that. Um If someone came to me, Johnny, and said, I want a major record deal, I would say I I'm not the guy for you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Pretty pretty much.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Yeah, yeah, no, that that means if you look at you know, thinking about what you do with your artists, that fits the bill. You know, you come from that background of like, you know, kind of build the mechanics yourself, um, get music to where it needs to be, um, in physical, in digital, and separating out those sides. And um, but what about okay? So let's say, for example, working with one of your artists

Authenticity Influences And Artist Identity

SPEAKER_00 8:00

then, you know, how do you kind of balance that sort of uh artistic authenticity, but also try and build like the commercial growth opportunity? Because that that's that's difficult sometimes, right? Authenticity is always that key word.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

I was talking about this with one of my artists yesterday, and we were reflecting on the nature of the industry we're in, and it's actually quite a very English thing to want to pigeonhole things into very strict genres. And if you move out of English or British, sometimes even English, that gets a lot easier and and and it's and it's not quite so so picky because the authenticity thing is really difficult, because you know, a lot of my artists are inspired by West Coast Americana songwriting or country songwriting, and you could argue that you know that that that therefore by default means that they lack authenticity. But but in the world that we work in, in this kind of joined up digital world where a young person's influences are as likely to have come from the west coast of America as they are from Rochdale, um, then that that makes its way into their songwriting. So I think what we're looking for is for an artist to have, and we're always looking to build with each artist, a very clear identity of what they stand for. So we're working really hard on brand, not in a big spend way, but just really good quality conversations about what are the values that this audience well, uh firstly, who is this audience? Where are they? What do they look like? What do they you know, where do they shop? Um, and then when we know about them, what are the values that are gonna get people to engage in you as an artist? And that might be kind of lyrically, melodically, it could be the songwriting, but also part of that is the look and uh the look and the feel of things. So we're we're looking for authenticity in something that the audience can can relate to and engage with.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Okay, yeah, that's that's a sensible uh answer, as always, from you, Mr. Hart. Um, you know, it it's a funny one, authenticity, isn't it? Because um I know that a lot of uh you and I are around a lot of young artists, right? Um, that are kind of trying to make their way and forge their career, and they see a lot of stuff on social media and they see a lot of AI clickbaity-y stuff, and then there comes that subject of like how important authenticity is, and I get it to a certain degree. However, what do you think about this, right? Let's take someone like Mick Jagger, right? And we go, you know, he's done pretty well for himself, right? Um, but he's lose. Yeah, and he's like, you know, like he it's almost like he's well, he's he's a home counties boy, right? He's from the southeast of England, but he sings like he's from like the deep south of America, and that's kind of it's never really gone against him. And if you compare, let's go a bit more modern, let's say Adele, you look at Adele's singing voice compared to her talking voice, it's quite it's quite different, but but she's she's the near flawless artist, like her songwriting, everything about her is completely and utterly authentic.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

That's one of those things and unique, and you you know it's her, and you can identify with all of those. Let's call them for the sake of it, let's call them core values. What does that artist stand for? It's very, very clear. She keeps herself to her soul, she's not in the public eye. You know, all of those are quite specific core values around someone like that. And that that ultimately is what we end up talking about when we talk about authenticity. Because in the joined up world that we live in, you know, music's just you know, my kid my kids growing up were as likely to find a skate punk band from the west coast of Australia than the as they were, do you know what I mean, someone in the UK. Because when the world went like that through the digital explosion, everything became available. My space.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Do you remember that, Donnie? Oh, I certainly do. I certainly do.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

So, you know, I I think our influence has gaped forward. I talk about this a lot with with with my artists because authenticity for me is is is not about being non-American, it's about recognizing the influence that comes in from that great, great body of songwriting, but also making it feel utterly unique in your own space.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Yeah, yeah, that's that's a that's uh that's a great way to

A Growth Story From Folk To Pop

SPEAKER_00 12:20

uh to put it. Um can you walk me through a sort of you know, specific artist growth story that you're proud of, right? And the sort of the key decisions that kind of help to make the difference.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Well you you know me, Johnny. I'm never I'm never proud of because I never I'm never one to sort of rest on my laurels and go, that's I'm never one to sort of go, that's done when that's finished and that's achieved. And that I guess that's probably one of my flaws as well, is that I'm not very good at going, we've done that, we've achieved that, isn't that great? I'm always like, what's next, what's next, what's next. But um one of my artists uh came very much out of the folk scene, and we started talking about working together, and and obviously my history as a musician and an artist comes from that sort of folk, acoustic sort of crossover scene, and that's where I I I worked as an artist for years and years and years. Um so I I tend to attract people within that sphere, and they'd made a brilliant first album, but it was it was very much in that folk mold. And the conversation we had went along the lines of if if that's the place where you want to stay as an artist, that's absolutely great, but I don't think that's where this relationship is gonna be at its best. I think what this particular artist had is is a a real kind of fantastic pop sensibility in their songwriting, which was not really getting recognised in in the genre within the which it was in. And and when me and the artist started talking, all the influences that come out, they're not necessarily from that, they're not all from that folk genre, they're all sorts of things, you know, they're like Joni Mitchell, Joan Byers, but they're also through to you know you know Jeff Buckley and you know, etc. etc. So we started talking about what songwriting is, and that's been a very long, slow development process where the artist is relatively successful within that folk world, but we're looking to sort of move, not move away from it, but develop the sound of the artist and real and recognize this real great sort of talent for songwriting. So the interim was we did an EP and that that worked really, really well. And then I sent that to a friend of mine at a publishing company. And I better be careful what I say here, but I I I I I sent it to a friend who is the head of Sync, uh a very well-known independent publishing company, uh, with a view to you know, talking about publishing. Because what we'd recognised is that in order to go forwards, we were going to need to engage a fairly good producer to kind of really mould this sound. We ended up doing a publishing deal with MyMet's publishing company, which was good enough for us then to engage a producer, and the relationship with that producer has been such that it's more than you know, press record, it it's the classic sort of producer role where the producer has been really, really involved in forging the sound, talking about these influences and you know, working out what this unique sound feels like. And that artist has been working with the producer now for six to eight months on an album, just grabbing bits of demos and then bits of stuff in the studio over dubbing, getting some session musicians in. It's kind of really weird because a lot of the vocal types that have ended up on the album, which we've just about finished now, actually came out of those original demo sessions classic. Um so just just not being afraid to go, what's what's the best thing? Doesn't have to be recorded in the best studio. It's like what's the best thing for the track. And we've worked with uh a producer called Steve Osborne on that record. And Steve's just um well, he's you know Steve, don't you? He's just a he's a he's a legend. He's a legend. Um you two, Kate Tunstall, well, you know, discography as long as you're on that, but he's he's just been absolutely brilliant in working with this particular artist and recognising that the songs are there, but what really needed forging was that kind of sound and that arrangement. And they've spent a very long time doing it, and we've just finished that. And now, of course, that gives us finished product to do with what we want. And our conversation has always been um, let's not limit it. You know, we could self-release this, have a long-term relationship with absolute label services who I love, they're just they're brilliant, the team there is fantastic. That's an option, but are we also should we necessarily rule out and label it because that's a well-prescribed route? And it's that thing I say about making sure the route for each artist is the right route for that artist at that time. What we're starting to find is there's a few labels bubbling up now that are really getting interested again in artist development, you know, investing in in sort of longer-term artist development. I think we saw a period where labels were just starting to think about quick fixes a little bit more, and you know, obviously the pressure on sales is immense on record labels. So um, but we're starting to see a few labels think about artist development and you know, having conversations with a few labels there, and we'll make the right choices, and and the key thing is not rushing the decisions, is making the right choices at the right time. So we have a finished album, which we could license, we could assign, but but what we've been able to do there through that prescribed careful route is all the balls are in our court, so we we can decide how we go forward. So I I think that's kind of one of my key tips here is just making sure you're in control of as much as you can possibly be in control of.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Okay, that's wow, what a fascinating case study. That's like uh well, for first of all, mate, well bloody done, right? Because that that honestly that's not it's not how yet, Johnny. Yeah, but it it setting up those partnerships, like it starts with that intervention of like, yes, you're folk, but there's a pop sensibility. Let's go over here to work with the right publishing partner. Um, then let's bring in the right producer. Um, and and you know, uh what that's that's absolutely superb. What's

Publishing Funding Producers And Album Control

SPEAKER_00 18:30

really interesting there, John, is a slight shift in your I don't want to say blueprint because you don't have a blueprint, you have loads of information.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Yeah, no, it's interesting you pick up on that.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

I thought you might. Because you're a you're an indie guy, right? And you're you know, you're a do it yours do-it-yourself guy. Well, you know, we I know we say we don't say do it, do it DIY doesn't really mean do it yourself anymore. It never really did, did it? But self-releasing. Um, but um, so that's that's a shift, right? But it is is that shift, John? Is it because you're looking at a licensing model for the album instead? So you're like taking it to a label and going, we can license this to you for X amount of time and then get it back in say five years.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

And I'm looking for that route, but it's that I'm not excluding that route.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

So because now we we're in control of all of the assets. Okay, the publishing is done, and that's been used to fund the recording. But we because we're in control of everything, we can look at everything. We could do a you know, an assignment um deal on a record deal, we could do a licensing deal, we could retain all the rights ourselves and assign it. But one of the things I'm finding is, and this is a I've always been, yeah, like you say, do it yourself, self-release, get it out there. But do you remember when well of course you you do, but some of some of your viewers may not, you know, when the whole internet bubble burst and there was a very conventional way of releasing music, and it changed overnight. And what we saw enter that space was lots and lots of companies to fill that space for getting music online to you know DSPs, um Ditto, distro community, you know, lots and lots of providers coming into that space. But what we've now seen as labels have been slightly more cautious about signing, and more artists have been prone or or encouraged to self-release and find those routes. What we've found is coming into that space is lots and lots of provision to help self-releasing artists get their music to where it needs to be, which is great, but it also unfortunately it comes at a cost. There's lots of providers now. Well, we can do we can plug your music to radio, we can plug you to non-editorial playlists, and we can didn't know there's all this these kind of huge raft of services you can bring in, but all of those ultimately come at a cost. So the costs in self-releasing have increased significantly over the last sort of five years. And capital really is something that is is uh is a big part of the equation. So if a record label is into the ice, buys into the vision, because we're holding all the cards, we can decide. If they buy into the vision of what we want to do, and they're willing to put some investment into that journey, then we'll have that conversation. Um you know, ideally, if we're gonna look at a sort of licensing deal, three to five year licensing deal, something like that.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

That's pretty good. That's pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Yeah, I mean they vary massively, obviously. You know, you hear some horrific stories, but there are five year licensing deals around three to five, and and this is that thing about long term vision in that a five year licensing deal may to some artists feel like a long time. But the beauty of it is is by the time you get to the end of that five years and you're now on to album two, I And three of your career is building. When those rights now revert to you, you're now in control of that catalogue and you can do with it what you wish. Because as we all know, there's residual sales around the new album into back catalogue. So it's that thing about making sure that you're either in control of all of your assets, essentially you're publishing and your recordings, or you have a plan to be able to get them back and exploit them further down the line as your career develops.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

Yeah, yeah. Okay. A very, very, very interesting model. God, that is so in keeping with the times we're in. Do you know, John, I'm just going to draw a connection to something that you've just said there to uh somebody who I met on the show a few months ago, um uh Elliot, who's the head of growth at Duetti, right? So uh, you know, a fintech partner that that uh that that would be very interested in speaking to you and your artists five years after let's say if you were to do that licensing deal. Um because one of the things that a fintech company would then do is to like pick up those masters five years down the line and go, right, we'll we'll we'll we'll advance you for what you think what we think you're gonna make off that. Um you give us half of it. Um and the half that we take, we also plow into a mega marketing machine as well. That's really interesting. So that so all of a sudden that that licensing deal over a sort of assignment of those masters then becomes a okay, let's just keep the publishing where it is and then look at that. But the recorded masters then become an actual long-term scalable financial asset, which is what we want artists to see their work as, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Exactly that. And you can see if I just talk my camera around a little bit, just my my whole office is racks and merch. We we we self-fulfill from my office. Sometimes we use fulfillment companies, there's another cost, yeah. But sometimes with an artist, it's about me putting alms into a bag and walking to the post office and sending them out there. So if if that's the journey, but that that the important thing about that is is owning the catalogue, because then obviously you can press the catalogue, etc. So getting that catalogue back to to build the value in that catalogue, and of course, you know, the thing is here, we're not talking about your massive, massive selling artists, we're talking about your hard-working day-to-day, you know, getting out there artists. That catalogue is a massive part of the of the jigsaw. The way I the way I try and think of it, and we we always talk about this with with our with the artists, is we've got to think about every single revenue stream and how are we exploiting that revenue stream to its maximum potential. Where's our neighbouring? What's happening? The publishing deal we just referred to. I I hope, and I really plan for that to be a long-term, really fulfilling publishing deal where the publisher is bringing syncs and bringing co-writes, and and that's already starting to come to fruition. Co-writes have come in, and as soon as we signed that deal, the sync came in uh for the artist on Home and Away. Oh

Touring Australia Sync And Support Networks

SPEAKER_01 25:10

renew Home and Away was a thing, but apparently it's a massive thing, you know, still still streams around the world and blah blah blah. We've got some stuff onto Home and Away, and um and now the authors are coming in, it's like there's there's a there's a revenue stream, you know.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Wow, so it's just like you've got a track record of sync placements in Australia. What's that all about?

SPEAKER_01 25:29

Well, I just have connections. So my connection to Australia is the the longest-term artist I've been managing is is a is a wonderful, wonderful man called Blair Dunlock. I've been working with Blair for about 12 years, maybe it might be nearly 15. And when I first started working with Blair, he was signed to a small independent record label uh and uh we set up his that's how we developed the relationship with absolute label services. But also Blair's publisher is Stuart Onglick from SGO Music, which is self-publishing through BMG, but Stu's in Ozzy. And it is to be honest, it's down to Stuart. He took Blair out, he helped us take Blair out there on Blair's first tour. And Blair's now been out to Australia five? It's just been in February, March, maybe the fifth, sixth time festival runs and shows. Wow. So we we've developed quite an audience there, and you know, he's worked it as hard as one can work, Australia. So um, yeah, that was that that works really well. So obviously, and and the Australian music industry, I find it to be really beautifully open to collaborative working. There's there's an organization called Sounds Australia who promote Australian artists around the world. Yeah, they're really proactive, they're just so good, and they and they're I don't know. I was at a conference, Folk Alliance, which is a kind of it's like a mini South by Southwest for the kind of acoustic folk industry. And Sounds Australia are there, and they're just having a meet and greet dinner, and like here's our Australian artists, and here's our UK managers and agents, and that's just you know, they're just doing very positive, proactive work to just kind of create engagement. And um and I like the way over there, they sit they're very positive, but um yeah. Sounds good. I mean we try and do that in every territory, you know. Blair's been into Canada and uh US is obviously a little challenging these days for various reasons, which probably we won't go into, but you know, visas in the US is just pretty much impossible at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Yeah. Um maybe that'll clear up in in due course, but yeah, yeah. That's interesting to hear about the Australian stuff because I mean I I I a big big hello to Australian listeners because I do get a lot of listeners on this show from Australia, yeah. And and uh and it always seems like so far away, yet they're so connected to everything that's going on in music.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

It's incredible, it's incredible, and it's down to organisations like but they're they're their collection societies are very proactive as well. Yeah, you know, and Apera have got an office in in London and they do songwriting camps, and you know, they're just just really supporting Australian artists all the time. And uh there used to be a thing that the Australian industry was ten years behind than the UK industry. And I I I just don't find that to be the case anyway.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

No, I think maybe it was at one point, I don't think it is anymore. I was talking to uh Ralph W Peer from Peer Music on the show a few few months back, yeah. And he's really active in Australia, um, you know, and uh like he he sets up some big camps in in Australia for people from all over the world to go there, and he's you know, he's really positive about what's happening there. So yeah, good for you.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

It's a great scene out there, it's a great festival scene, it's a great touring scene. I mean, obviously the drives are a bit longer, but you know, there's some good venues, good promoters. I think they've struggled a little bit recently because the whole situation that's going on in the Gulf. Because obviously most of the flights to from Australia go through Dubai. I mean, we certainly came across on the last tour because all of our flights got divert diverted um at great cost. Oh gosh. But you know, that's that can't be helped.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

So

Neighbouring Rights And Missing Royalties

SPEAKER_00 29:10

um you mentioned about neighbouring rights there a moment ago, John. We I I know you and I have spoken before, you know, sort of off-air, let's say, about neighbouring rights. Um I'm definitely seeing like um an increase in in neighbouring rights collection, you know, globally, but also it is a rather complex beast in as much as that.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Do you mean an increase in the amounts coming in, or do you mean the in the number of providers in the space?

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Uh both really. I meant on the um number of um people's NR royalties going up in um but but certainly there's a lot more people um you know out there. I think I think the one of the things that I've noticed is that um A, a lot of artists don't necessarily know that they've got neighbouring rights available to them. Yeah. Um and and and and B knowing what to do about it because sometimes when you go directly to a CMO to look for help on it, it can be quite slow.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Um and Yeah, I mean it's uh you've you may have covered it on this uh this podcast in the past, and I'm not going to be critical of any one organization, but PPL website feels feels a little bit clunky at times, probably the best way to phrase it. And and responses, like you say, they can be a little bit slow, and sometimes it's really difficult to work. I mean, what I find artists don't understand the the key one in a world where artists are self-releasing more and more and more, what that actually means is they are being record labels. But what they don't understand is what that means is they've got the right zone a share to pull in as well as the performer's share. And um I spend a lot of time on consultances first thing just doing that. It's like you've been claiming your performance share, but you've not actually claimed your rights owner's share, and you're actually in a label, so you know there's revenue there. And that's the thing, is like where where's those pockets of revenue? Same thing happens on mechanicals as well. If an artist doesn't have a publishing deal, they don't always realize and they've been on a label, they don't always realise they've been paying mechanicals. And one of my artists, we've self-registered them for MCPS, and they've been playing playing mechanicals for four years over a pretty, you know, within its niece successful album, and there's a chunk of money sitting there to collect. So, yeah, knowing is difficult, advice and guidance is difficult. There are a number of people who do um kind of neighbouring rights packages. I I'll do it with absolute. We have the option of a neighbouring rights package, which we use on one of the labels but not on the other. Um, and that works really, really well. Uh essentially it's about how well plugged in digitally the organization is that's doing it, yeah. And and what can they bring in terms of data management and ultimately revenue beyond what the PPL uh you know the CMS systems are are bringing us in. But it it is an increasing area because uh digitally players are more able to be trapped. So, you know, on on Apple Music for Artists now, you can see all your radio players on the uh on the on the app. That's great. Because now you can start to trap where things are getting played not only on the songwriting but on the recording side, and you can actually go, look, this has been played here. Is it is this you can start to check if it's coming through, and sometimes it requires that fastidious going through statements going, I know it's played here, have we seen that one yet? You know, it can be a bit of a pain, but I think I'm a firm believer that it's all sitting out there in the pennies, and if you go and bring the pennies in, the pennies become pounds, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it's a it's an old saying that's never true, uh uh never been truer when it comes to uh neighbouring rights. Yeah, um, yeah, that that falls in line with a lot of the people that I talk to on the podcast about about neighbouring rights. Um and just the fact that there are just so many different nuances around the world on on where things work, things work differently in Australia. For you know, things work differently in America. They don't really exist in America. Okay, they've got sort of digital performance rights through things, but it's not quite the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

But um, but uh yeah, that's um but yeah, I think the people I'd love it if we if we could get to a space where where we have independent publishing sector uh uh alongside the song, I'd love it to get to a space where there's as much choice for people to manage labouring rights uh on the recording side, and then you can start to really choose based on people's performance and how you know what percentages of royalties are they pulling in, da da da da. And um and and and also you'd expect uh you'd expect a music publisher to work your catalogue. Obviously, now if you're on the label side, you're being the label, but why why couldn't a collection, why couldn't uh an organization who was looking after neighbour rights promote the catalogue of the recordings in the same way as a publisher does the songs? Yeah, I think there's a space in the market there, really, but I'm sure you were telling me someone's in it now.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

I do know people in that space, yeah, yeah. Um but uh but but but not so much in the UK, weirdly. Um you know, uh like I I I met a guy again through the podcast recently called uh Amit Dubay, who runs Beach Street uh music publishing um and rights management stuff in India, and um and he was telling me that in India, you know, so many of the of the labels um are actually publishers as well. And they're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Yeah, they tend to I'd I toured India years ago as a musician. I mean, it's not at all like it it is now, but I worked there as a consultant for a music school there as well, doing some work. And they tend to have a much more kind of 360 approach to things where they're managing all of all of the portfolio assets for the artist. Um, same really in China. I did some consultancy out in China. I remember going and talking about how um because obviously copyright is is didn't exist essentially in China, really. It's a it's a it's a fairly new initiative. And um I would say, well, how how are you managing artists' careers if there's no intellectual property? And they their response was we don't we don't care about intellectual property, we just make them celebrities. And I just thought, yeah, I can see I can see that mirrors into our industry in some places as well, you know. So uh they do yeah, they have a much more kind of 360-degree kind of approach to things. We're very fragmented, fragmented in the UK, and I think what that gives us is a great choice and a very kind of buoyant, diverse market, but also makes things very confusing.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does. Things can slip through the radar and you know, because to to to some music creators, you know, the the neighboring right side is well, that's that's a label thing, and then to other people it's like, well, no, that's that's actually your publisher could do that. And then it's like, no, that publisher can't. They have a partnership, but they don't do that. Therefore, maybe I could just go to uh, you know, I was talking to a company today called Lime Blue. Oh yeah, yeah, they're really good.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

Um we have one artist where the publisher also c uh manages a neighbour and writes for us.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Uh just because they set up with the systems for it, so so they do it. That was an early arrangement, they do it for us and they they do it really well. Yeah. Um, but then another artist, we do it as a kind of add-on through absolute, and then another artist, we don't really have it in place yet, but with that artist, we're just about to go into big album campaigns. So that's on my list here to tidy up a few things, get into PPL and sort out dots and metadata.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Yeah, yeah, no, that that that makes have a look at line blue for that option. They're very good, they're very good. Um, what what are the

Releasing Too Soon And Using Spotify Well

SPEAKER_00 36:50

um this is a bit more of a generic question here, John, but I'm interested to see what you think about this. What are the biggest mistakes that you notice emerging artists making when it comes to growing their careers too quickly?

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Yeah, uh I think I think one of the things I see is is is getting into DSPs, getting into Spotify too early. That this kind of thinking that we've got to have a track out there, but not actually knowing who the audience is. And I I know there's a strong argument for saying you could use Spotify to grow the audience, but uh this is probably a reflection on my the way I do things. I'm a firm believer in building audiences in ones and twos and kind of getting to know them and build them. Um all of one of my artists, but most of them, do really well, connect really well through maidenness for having good authentic conversations. So they tend to get onto Spotify really early and then not really kind of think about what it's there for. And and sometimes the music that's released early on onto DSPs is is not the standard that they should be aspiring to. So releasing not good enough music too early, maybe that's the answer.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

Just just wait until you've got something which is more than a hundred percent represents what you are. I know there's no more than a hundred percent, but you know, I I very often meet with artists and they go, Well, I put that out. Is it good? It's okay. Yeah, I kind of think it's alright. It shouldn't be there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It shouldn't be there. If I want you to say to me, it's the best thing I can do right now. Giving my constraints, which might be money, might be time, whatever, give him my constraints. That is absolutely represents me, and that is the best thing I can do right now. And and then what we then tend to do is we don't really view we still pick for editorials and non-editorials, and you know, all of those things. We play all of those games, but for us, Spotify is not really a revenue generator, it's more um a discovery platform.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

So it's making sure that you treat your Spotify profile as a social media platform. Images, biog, is your merchandise available there? Um you know, or you call you are your gigs plugged in. So thinking of it as a social media page more than thinking of it as a as a as a retail platform. And artists will very often go into that space without having thought about those other things. And you you know, you're not gonna make anything unless you sort of get plugged straight into a new music Friday or a really good playlist, and that's great if you do, but it's unlikely that given the odds, that's good you're gonna get that massive boom on the first release. But if someone scrolls down and they see that you're playing in their town and there's a great image there, and the bio really connects in terms of reference points, oh oh look, they've got an EP app and I can actually buy it, you know, through a Shopify account and I can get it mailed to me, that that level of engagement.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

I think having a plan for that leveling of engagement is what's

Name Changes Chasing Numbers And Trust

SPEAKER_00 39:55

really, really important. Do you do you yeah, that makes a lot of sense. John, do you find that like um because we're in a time now where you can an artist okay, so I'll I'll say it well I really think, right? So you know when an artist says, I was doing that music two years ago, it no longer represents me, I'm gonna go over here instead. It's logical, it makes sense, and it's kind of a clean exit point algorithmically, right? To so you don't create any sort of distortion and going, that's what I used to do now. It makes sense. However, it does open the door into kind of going, let me just erase my past and start again, which you in the physical world, of course, you could never do. You just have to leave it there and go, well, you know, yeah, I don't like it anymore, but it represented me then, and this is where I am now. And you know, is that kind of because we can erase the past effectively, is that kind of making artists more um pedantic?

SPEAKER_01 40:50

God, that's such a great question. I mean, it's not it's not something I normally deal with because my artists are it brings that authenticity question, doesn't it? I thought artists that I work with are who they are, and they couldn't even contemplate really making any other music. They write the songs that they write and they fall out. We can talk sometimes about the way that they're shaped, like we did with the the production conversation, but ultimately the songs are the songs. If you literally I guess what you're talking about there is changing genres and changing names and creating a new profile, i.e., that's how you delete the past. But um eventually for me, uh maybe I'm all maybe this is my age, authenticity just comes through. And if you're skipping into a new genre that you've not lived in, I think people will start to see it and and and see that kind of lack of authenticity. What you're really doing now is you're just chasing numbers. I just and when you ask me what um what am I looking for in an artist, not that. Yeah. What I'm looking for is just I want you to know who you are. Not not have fully realised it yet, but know who you are, know what you do, and um and have a really clear idea of how you want to develop that, and in what capacity, what you know, what promoters might you want to work with, what venues might you want to play at? What labels do you think are the right labels for you? Uh is it labels, is it about autonomy, is it about you know, just I want artists to come to me and and have a strong idea, and I and I and I I want to have arguments with them. You know, I I talked to one artist yesterday about um the kind of a cluttered up space on DSPs and like would it make sense to think about a name change and stuff like that? And the artists were like, absolutely not, it's my name. Yeah. But I like that, I like that to and fro, you know. So I I think it's really important to have that and I to have that dialogue because it helps you really forge out the look and the feel of the thing, you know. But um, yeah, I don't know. I do see a lot of artists. I mean, I do know one we know one person who was literally making music and plugging it in through um through some management company label type set up in Miami, who was getting millions and millions and millions of streams and has now moved on to other things because it's just got that kind of lift up. So there's an argument for doing that, but um yeah, difficult. Not not really the world I'm in.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

Yeah, but then what what he was doing was something very specific in house music, right? That that you know, it was like it was absolutely there, and he actually he wanted to go over there and start doing something else, and was he was quite happy to acknowledge that this is not really where I want to be.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

I want to be over here, but this gets me here. I mean, what was he sitting on at one time, 32 million monthly listers or something? Which is crazy, right? Yeah, but that was that was a world I didn't I don't really know. That that person spoke to me and you about management and lawyers and accountants, and we gave them. Of help, but I wouldn't have ever offered to manage an artist like that because I just don't know that world in that way.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

Yeah, yeah. No, that's that's fair. Um, so John, we spoke quite a lot about like the things that artists can be doing in order to kind of prepare themselves. I suppose to cut a part I've put a fine point on that, patience is a part of it, right? You know, kind of like instead of going too soon, you know, when you're when you're 20, 21, doing a couple of singles, disappearing for a year, actually hold everything back. If you're not ready until you're 27, don't worry, you'll make a bigger impact when you're 27 with all that back catalogue, right? But outside of that sort of artist development

AI Risks Practical Upside And Patience

SPEAKER_00 44:40

realm, let's say, um what changes do you see ahead in the music industry that artists need to be aware of?

SPEAKER_01 44:50

I mean, the obvious one which you've covered really well on here is where AI takes us. And uh, you know, people will fall down on both sides of the debate, and you know, how do you feel about AI? In in my world, there was a a successful folk artist who had an album appear on their Spotify profile that they'd had nothing to do with at all.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

It was completely AI generated in their name on their Spotify profile, like and had mirrored their songwriting and their voice. I mean, anyone who knew the artist could instantly tell it wasn't them. But anyone who was a sort of superficial fan of the artist could have been convinced that it might have been them. I mean, the the songs were rubbish, obviously, but um they got it taken down. But I I see benefits to AI when it's helping us do the work that we need to do on a daily basis. Unloading metadata, you know, the the painful tasks, long-winded tasks that our friend Eric always says, what's you know, when asked what's the most important skill in the in the music industry, he will always respond uh at a solid command of Microsoft Excel, which is a great answer. But you know, there are there are things to help us do those things now which are brilliant because they make the workflow faster, which allow us to think about the creativity. But when it interferes on the creative side, and this is probably an age thing for me, but I I I worry about that. I worry about infringements on intellectual property, I worry about where it's going, I worry about our government's um take on it. Uh, that sort of divide between do we do we go with AI and make ourselves at the front of AI, or or or do we stick with the value in IP and the kind of creative industries? That that's a that's a big concern. I I don't really fully know how it's gonna play out. Uh the old punk rocker and me would say hopefully it just all eats itself and we end up with two music industries, one which is entirely AI generated, which is utter nonsense. And then over here we've got this vibrant space of creators just making amazing music, but it'll never be that binary, will it? So I think AI is is it is a difficult one. I think one of the things that we kind of referred to earlier is because there's a there's such a fragmentation in in our marketplace now, there's a tendency for different providers of services to want to get involved really early. I'll be your manager, I'll be your I'll be your plugger, I'll do your PR. And there's a tendency to think that you need to take those things on really early because that's some kind of indicator of success. But actually holding those off and making sure that you've got a really solid plan for what you want to do, and then you engage the right people to do the things that you want to do at the right time is a much more prudent approach. So pay patience has always been the way in the industry, right? Yeah, yeah. Um but look but but patience not to the point because we also know those people who sit in their bedrooms producing tracks and argue with themselves about the delay, this you know, the the length of a reverb for weeks and weeks and weeks and never let anything go out. And then when they let someone hear something, they realise that no one cares about the reverb of the snow. It's like they're not even hearing it, and you've messed around with it for 20 hours, and and they've they're so protective of their work, they never let it go. So it's being patient, but to the point where when you get something that you're fully confident in, then being bold enough to go for it and to put your neck out there and go, I'm good, this is good.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

Yeah, that's that's really, really nice advice. Very, very, very well put. Um, yeah, it's uh there's a lot to think about, isn't there? Because, you know, I on the one hand, you know, an awful lot has changed in this business and continues to change all the time. But the same thing that underpins absolutely everything about it is that we love it, right? Yeah, we love it. And and and it's we need it, right? You know, look and think about how algorithms work, they're completely and utterly reliant upon the flow of new music, and new can be new, new, and new can be undiscovered, old, and all that kind of stuff. But like, you know, we we we can we can have music that sat there dormant for years that all of a sudden finds its audience and then bam, off it goes. But then you still need to pick up all those other things.

SPEAKER_01 49:19

I always as a because I was a releasing artist, you know. I was in a touring artist. We toured the world for years, we were signed to Cookie Binal, and we were we were signed to um pure uh to uh pure bliss, which became the big chill. We were signed to Zomba Records and BMG Publishing, and we toured the world, blah blah blah. And I always thought that I wouldn't find the same buzz in uh management as I did in that. I I would argue that I find more buzz in management than I did in that.

SPEAKER_03 49:51

Really?

SPEAKER_01 49:51

Because with that comes the being away from home and the touring, which I used to love, but then it got to a point where I said, I just can I envisage myself at 65 years old lifting a fender twin out in the back of the car at four o'clock in the morning. No, no, I can't. Um but what I love is working with the guys I

Rejection Resilience And Proving Value

SPEAKER_01 50:10

work with and just pushing and it's really hard, constant and utter rejection all of the time. What is it that makes us just go and go again and go again and go again? I think Einstein would would that what's the Einstein quote? Doing the same thing over and over and again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. Uh yeah, we're insane, we're insane, but we're creatives as well. And I just, you know, that constant rejection, and and then you get that little glimmer of had it yesterday, literally had it yesterday, talking to an artist about one needing a certain thing to happen and it wasn't happening. And was this person doing something wrong, or was this not working? And then at the end of the day, an email came through, it's like, oh, we've got you this. Bing.

SPEAKER_00 50:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

That's the that's the thing we needed.

SPEAKER_00 50:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

Just came, you know.

SPEAKER_00 51:00

Oh, that's good. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

And then you go, okay, okay, there's hope, there's hope, there's hope. And you go again, and you go again. So yeah, I mean, we're relentless, we're idiots.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

Um do you know what, John? What else would you do? That's well, that's true, yeah. Um, but the that the idea of rejection there is an interesting one, right? Because I I used to think that when I was younger, I used to think, yeah, okay, I've had loads of rejection, but like that'll stop as you get older, right? No, it doesn't, does it? It's just it just it just takes a different form.

SPEAKER_01 51:30

It just what what the thing that changes is not the rejection, it's your resilience to it.

SPEAKER_00 51:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:35

So when you get to our stage in life, you don't you don't even really hear it. You just go, okay, what whatever next? Yeah whatever next, whatever next. Whereas at an earlier stage in your career, you're more prone to kind of go, oh, that really hurt, that rejection really hurt. Whereas we don't we don't feel the pain anymore.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

Yeah. Do you know? I I I yeah, you know, you're totally right, mate. I wish with all my heart that I could get that message across to um to emerging artists that that rejection is absolutely a necessary part of this path. And but the trouble is you only actually realise that with experience, don't you? And I suppose that's like a lot of things in life.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

I do, and but it also, you know, is that kind of natural selection element to it. It kind of creates some natural wastage. Because, you know, when you asked me what the things that I look for in an artist, did the other thing I didn't say is is that that drive that like no, I am do I'm doing this. Yeah, no, I'm doing no, I'm doing this. You know, that drive is absolutely important. And if that drive's not there, it's it may not be the industry for you. And yeah, the rejection might be a a kind of natural way of finding the art because if you don't take rejection well, you're you're not gonna succeed.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

Yeah, yeah. Oh god, absolutely. God, it's Joe, it's very reassuring. You and I, well, we've known each other for years ago. We all say the same thing. We do, don't we? It's so funny, isn't it? I you know, when I'm when I'm doing like consultancy work for artists, and I'll I'll I'll kind of look at uh ideas and say, this would be a good partner, not just yet, but after this, that would be the right time for this partnership. So I'll set that up and let get get get you talking together. But when you talk to them, don't ask them for help, right? Yeah, like just and and and also make it really clear, without being aggressive in any way, make it really clear that this thing that you're gonna do, you're gonna do it anyway with or without puff. Yeah, yeah. So so uh which actually makes you more, you know, uh more appealing anyway.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

Exactly, exactly that. Yeah, they're on the path because then you my job as a manager is more difficult to define, and I need to work harder to define it because I'm gonna like well, you're on that path. I'm now I need to now let you know when I'm adding value to that. Because if I'm not adding value, there's no point in the relationship.

SPEAKER_00 53:45

Yeah, yeah, good point.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

You know, and that's the key thing. And being being a manager is it's about knowing when it's not working as well as when it is working. Yeah, but let that's a whole different podcast.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

Yeah, well, we'll do that one another time then. Um, John, thanks so much,

Final Thoughts And Sign Off

SPEAKER_00 54:00

man, for being here.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

You know, I've I love what you're doing, Johnny. It's amazing. I'm a I'm a big fan of it, uh, as you know, and uh all power to you, buddy.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

Oh, mate, likewise, likewise, big love, mate. Okay, there you have it. Uh insightful dude, right? He's done it all, you know, in the music industry. He has been uh an artist, right? You know, as you probably heard him talk about just a few moments ago there. You know, he was signed to Zomba, he's done all sorts of things as an artist, he's toured the world, and then he kind of you know transitions into artist management, an AR consultancy. You know, he's very respected by a lot of uh labels and publishers. Um, he's very, very well connected, and you know, he's well connected because he works hard, he's very trustworthy. Um, and uh he's a great guy, right? A really, really great guy. Uh so uh I'm just so grateful that he finally came on the podcast. It's been so hard trying to get him on. Not because he's awkward or anything, because he's just he's a busy boy, you know. Anyway, he was here, it's done, right? Another box ticked in life. John Hart on the podcast. That's how much it meant to me. I hope it meant something to you too. He dropped some gems in that episode. If there's anything you missed, just roll back and just listen to some of the stuff he said or read the transcript. I guarantee you can't give many guarantees in the music industry, can you? But I guarantee someone somewhere will have learned something from the things that he said. I hope that I am talking to you when I say that. Okay, enough from me today. Have a great day, everybody, and may the force be with you.