Leta's Tap Styles
Thirteen years old Leta is a member of Chloe Arnold's international youth tap company, SoleTalk, a podcaster, a founder of a nonprofit dance studio for autistic dancers like her, severely dyslexic, and has autism. Along with her mom, Amanda, Leta discusses a varity of issues from the bullying Leta has faced in dance studios because of her autism and dyslexia, to the difficulties of starting a new nonprofit. Along the way, Leta and Amanda also talk about Leta's love of tap dancing. They also host special guests ranging from Leta's dance family and friends, to experts in ASD, to parents and advocates of complex kids.
Leta's Tap Styles
Redefining Education and Inclusion with Dr. Bibi Pirayesh
In this episode of Leta Tap Styles podcast, guest Dr. Bibi Pirayesh, an educational therapist and adjunct faculty at Pepperdine University, joins us to discuss neurodiversity as a social justice. Especially when it comes to the needs of neurodiverse students in the world of education. Leta shares her personal experience with dance teachers. Dr. Bibi emphasizes the need to see neurodiversity as a social justice issue. She also discusses the need to critique the educational system's neurotypical structures. The conversation delves into the challenges faced by neurodivergent individuals, the importance of inclusive teaching methods, and the role of advocacy in achieving equity. Throughout, Leta's energetic personality and love for her adorable puppies shine through.
Visit Dr Bibi's website to learn more about Dr Bibi.
Visit Leta's Tap Styles to learn more about the podcast.
Interested in being a guest on Leta's Tap Styles? Use our PodMatch link to reach out to us.
Support Leta's non-profit dance studio for autistic dancers by clicking this link. Every donation helps keep the lights on, and allows Leta to provide quality dance classes for autistic dancers at the same cost as the neurotypical dance studios in town.
Hello, this is Leta, and this is me and my mommy's podcast. And there's my mommy, and there's me, and I'm just talking about this stuff. And there's me tap dancing, because this is a tap dancing slash autism podcast. And there's a bunch of animals, and a wallby trying to eat my hair. And there's a bunch of sand and ocean. Also, there's all my SoleTalk stuff. I love all my mentors and friends. All that going on, so old. Yeah, it's like life's stuff. Oh, and also, there's my boots. My boots are amazing. Also, there's me, trying not to have a panic attack. Also, this is a podcast about me. my autism, dancing, and blah, blah, blah. I'm just ADHD and this is it. Also, there's my cute, adorable puppies.
Amanda:Hi, welcome to this week's friends Friday here on Leta's tap style., we have with us Dr. Bibi today. I have tried to introduce guests. I sound like a robot when I'm reading between trying to make sure my speech impediment doesn't show up and you know, the minor dyslexia I have. Do you mind introducing yourself to our audience?
Dr Bibi:So my name is Dr. Bibi Pirayesh. I work, um, as an educational therapist, um, as well as a, um, therapist, advocate and trainer. Um, I've been in practice, oh, over 15 years. I live in the Southern California, California. Los Angeles area, which is primarily where my practice is. Um, and a big part of my work is centered around advocating for the learning rights of children in schools. So I'm really, really happy to be on your podcast today. Um, especially with all the new news that we have about changes coming down the pipeline about our school system. So.
Amanda:There are just a few coming down the pipeline. Um, I really, uh, when I saw your stuff on pod match and looked into you, and I'm been trying all week to figure out how to put this. I like how you keep saying it's a social justice issue because with Leta with her tap. And her dance and everything, the number of teachers who were like, she's great. She needs to become neurotypical in order for me to work with her. I
Dr Bibi:I mean, I think that's actually the, the, the biggest, I mean, that for me. For, for me on my own personal journey as an educator, um, what really shifted my work and what really kind of forced me to begin to look at learning disability, um, as a learning, uh, as, as a social justice issue was the realization that. What we were really doing, um, was teaching kids how to mask, um, and forcing them to learn how to mask, uh, or to become neurotypical. I can't believe someone actually said that out loud, um, but that is certainly the underlying, um, kind of push, I think, in a lot of, uh, Special education circles, um, I mean, I'm a big believer in remediation where it's appropriate. Um, but I, I really came to understand in my own practice that. Where I thought I was advocating for students, and I was supporting them. I was actually supporting the status quo of the systems, which requires everyone to be neurotypical. Um, so, yeah, that's 1 of the biggest ways that, um, I think we can. Kind of understand learning disability as a social justice issue, because we're asking in every single situation. I think we have to be asking. Are we doing this for the child? Are we doing this for the student for the person? Or are we doing this to make things easier for the system in place?
Amanda:attended to a lot of the things they were complaining about, where it's like, she's autistic. She doesn't like looking people in the eyes and I'm like, you can just get over that.
Dr Bibi:Yes, right. Exactly. And and it's exactly that. I mean, to me, neurotypical is really like the dominance culture more than anything else. So it's this constant ask where. It's always, um, the basically the child or the students. I mean, that's the population I work with, but obviously it applies to adults as well. Um, where, where that individual has to pretzel themselves and that is always the expectation. There's never an expectation of, well, can we try to. Take a step to be more, um, to, to change. Um, so the burden of the change is always placed on, um, the, the individual who's sort of not fitting into that neurotypical culture.
Amanda:Leta will tell you she had teachers and you can jump in on here. The ones that told you you needed to teach them about autism. They didn't have the time to learn it.
Dr Bibi:Oh,
Leta:Oh yes, I'm paying you to do labor. If you're not doing free labor, I'm not doing free labor. And also, it's illegal for children under the age of 14 to do free labor. Also, it's illegal to make children do free labor.
Dr Bibi:so glad that you are able to advocate for yourself so well and to articulate that so clearly. I think it is exactly that. I mean, and it doesn't just fall on children. I, I feel like we, we see this across the board. We see it, um, you know, when we talk about. woman's issue. If a woman is in a male dominated setting or we see it, you know, around race, if a person of color is sort of in a primarily white space, the burden always falls on that person to have to kind of like teach everybody else and also make a case for why they need to be Why they're allowed to belong. Um, and I think that's a big problem.
Amanda:It is a huge problem. I know. So, since we've started, uh, Autistic Wings, Dance Studios have reached out to me and gone, Okay, how do I make my neurodivergent kids fit into my neurotypical class? You can say what you want, Leta.
Leta:We could just steal your children. We just take them, and I don't give a damn about annoying you. Why do you give a damn? We could just steal their children. I mean, they're not playing fair. We don't play fair. It's called fire with fire. You kill fire with fire.
Dr Bibi:I don't like her. We need to get her elected into office. Um,
Amanda:new generation is a lot better than my generation
Dr Bibi:yeah.
Amanda:advocating for themselves.
Dr Bibi:I feel like she's gonna do a lot more, you know, get a lot more done than the people we have in office right now.. So life fire with Smart girl.
Amanda:And the reason, Leta, is that some of these kids do not live in Colorado Springs. Um, and these are studios from around the country asking.
Dr Bibi:Mm-hmm
Leta:We could just make more studios. We'll let them find more people to make their own damn studio.
Amanda:Okay, she may have opinions.
Dr Bibi:I love it.
Amanda:Um, but yeah, that, like you were saying, we have, um, We have not had in our studio yet, but Leta and I have friends who have both neurodivergency and they're people of color and they're in dance is still, you know, a predominantly white dominated space
Dr Bibi:Hmm hmm.
Amanda:these teachers are like, you need to teach me. All about your stuff. And it's like, it's not the child's job.
Dr Bibi:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I don't know a lot about the dance world. I like, I, I. I don't
Amanda:It's like most of the education world.
Dr Bibi:Okay. Okay. Um, yeah, I mean, I, I think that it's just like, it's just our larger cultural, um, you know, there's some people who always say that if you really want to understand the root of any marginalization, um, try to understand ableism and I think ableism is just so, um, Deep in our culture, because we have a cult, we have a capitalist culture, which essentially means you're only as valuable as what you can produce. Um, and so that steeps into everything, um, even something like dance, which, um, you know, is not about production necessarily. Although I know there's some people that, you know, are. It's like, it's very different for them when it comes to dance, but, um, yeah, we, we turn everything we, we sort of, we, we push everything through that same lens and we apply our same ableist thinking, um, across the board. So, I, the way that you change the culture, though, is, I think exactly what you and we are doing, which is to kind of push back on these, um. Expectations and ask people to critically examine what it is that they're saying and what it is that they're asking for and what that actually means. Um, it's easier said than done. Of course.
Amanda:You can say whatever's on your mind.
Leta:I'm supposed to ask? I mean, they didn't ask me on anything, and when they did ask me about anything, they just threw it out the window, or that, or, or, dumpster fire, so why, why, why should I ask stuff? I'm just gonna drag their asses.
Amanda:Yeah, she's like, I'm not asking anymore. We've had people, going back to the ableism, who have tried to explain why the neurodivergent community needs to make the neurotypical community feel Welcome and safe.
Leta:I also kept looking up autism, and kept saying, I have white skin, because my, uh, white as hell skin, because my autism gave me cancer. Freakin cancer because I have, uh, I have dyslexia, blah, blah, blah, cancer. DON'T CANCER FOR EVERYTHING.
Amanda:down just a little bit. She had a few dance teachers that use Dr. Google.
Dr Bibi:Oh, what?
Amanda:And the autism explained like, Oh, you're so pale because of your autism. It's like, or her dad's Irish,
Dr Bibi:I've never heard that before.
Amanda:you know, you can find a lot of crazy stuff on Google.
Dr Bibi:Oh, my goodness. Um, yeah, you know, I, I really, I mean, in all honesty, I think even the use of terms like neurotypical, neurodivergent, neurodiverse, um, I feel like even those terms are kind of Segregating because what does that any what does that even really mean? And I don't mean this in a way to kind of erase anyone's identity, but but we're all neurodiverse in different ways. Um, I do not mean that in a, you know, um,
Amanda:know what you're mean.
Dr Bibi:yeah, but I, I just think that I think the second that we, the reason that I think that that's a mistake is that Neurotypical is not really a thing. It's not like there is some scientifically, uh, you know, researchable brain out there that is supposed to be the typical brain and then like some people fall outside of that. There is no such thing. That's why I really think neurotypical is more cultural. It's sort of what our culture considers the norm. Um. And anyone who falls outside of that culture is othered. Um, so, uh, yeah, I, so, and then, yes, and then from there, you get this idea of like, oh, well, you know, you have to help us better understand how to, I mean, it's all the same conversations that we've had around race for the last, um, God knows how long. Uh, so, yeah, this, this idea of placing the burden. Um, as if, as if, like, All of the things that we see, all of the diversity that we see around us isn't just part of what it means to be human, and as a result, all of our responsibility, um, and, and desire to learn and understand about it. Um, so yeah, that's really frustrating.
Amanda:She had a developmental pediatrician that I think put it best. And I use the neurodiversity and neurotypical just cause I know there are people in our audience who. Claim their neurotypical, but her developmental pede was like, find me a neurotypical kid. Cause that means you have to have hit every thing exactly when you were supposed to.
Dr Bibi:Yes, and but I think there's also a question of like, what is the supposed to like, where do we where do we determine the supposed to mean, I just, there's nothing. There's nothing about human development. There's nothing about. Brain development, there's nothing about nature. That is that black and white. And that is that exact like, I don't understand. Um, I mean, we, we have some of this language to help us navigate. I, I, I sort of get that, but I, the danger is when we, um, you know, when, when we just get stuck in it.
Amanda:Oh, yeah. No, I mean, I definitely agree. She's having too much fun with the puppy over there now.
Dr Bibi:Oh my God, this puppy is just so I wish my dog was this loving and relaxed.
Amanda:He's a
Leta:This thing has anxiety and then this thing takes out the anxiety by barking and this thing can bark while eating kibble. Also bark while tooting. It sounds weird. Also bark in
Amanda:Leta, it's okay. Shhh. He, he's a rescue puppy and he barks, he's, um, barks a lot when he's not, but he needs his people to feel safe.
Dr Bibi:Oh,
Leta:bark when he's drinking water and not choke somehow.
Dr Bibi:How old is your puppy? Li
Amanda:Do you know? She's like, I don't know. I don't keep track of their ages. He was born, um, He's a rescue puppy. We know how old he was because the family who had him first adopted him from the shelter he was born at. And this is the first time I've had a rescue dog that I'm like, I know his birthday,
Dr Bibi:Oh wow.
Amanda:he was born a month into COVID.
Dr Bibi:Oh, okay. So also a Covid puppy. That's also why he is probably anxious
Amanda:Yeah. We've got two COVID puppies. The other one gets put up for podcasts cause she gets a little too anxious, but they were both rest, you know. People got them as puppies during covid and then his family had never had a dog before so they went with a staffy, uh, pit bull puppy as their first dog. Probably not the best option.
Dr Bibi:my, I could never. I just don't understand that. I, I could never give up. I mean, I, um, my dog had, um, about two years. Uh, I, I got him when he was like, Just a couple months old and then he had about two years of really, really severe, um, kind of different illnesses. We almost lost him a couple times and at no point would I have ever been able to give him up. I don't understand how
Amanda:I will.
Dr Bibi:judge people, but
Amanda:I don't understand it. I could never give up dog. Uh, he kind of, uh, forced their hand though because he kept getting out of the, their yard and then he started running to our house and we didn't know them.
Dr Bibi:oh, so he always knew he was Leta's puppy. Oh
Leta:they had a fence collar and forgot to turn on the FENCE.
Amanda:they, they didn't quite understand dogs and they got one of those, you know, buried electric, invisible fences and they didn't know you had to have the collar to go with it.
Leta:You're also supposed to put on the collar. You're also supposed to set the barrier.
Amanda:It's not, I'm not a big fan of letting my dog just run free. So
Dr Bibi:Well, I mean, again, I think that it was all just part of what was meant to happen, that they were meant to find each other because look at him. Oh, my
Amanda:oh he is Tiny Shot reason, just . Um. And I wanted to circle back to the ableism and I mean, I have a love hate relationship with that word as well. Um, we've had a lot of people get very defensive when I'm like, I don't fully call out it. Hey, you're being ableist. But when I'm. point out their ableism. You do a lot more in the social justice realm than I do. Is there a decent way you've learned of how to explain nicely, hey, you're being ableist without hitting someone on the back of the head like Leta wants to half the time?
Dr Bibi:well, tell me first why you have a love hate relationship with the word. Is it because of the kind of reaction it
Amanda:It's the reaction. I mean, They're the love part is, you know, it actually points out exactly what you guys are doing. You're being ableist, but the defensiveness that people get, especially in certain communities. There's I get well, I'm black. So I can't be ableist. I'm Hispanic. So I can't be ableist. I'm lgbtq. So I can't be ableist. I'm like, okay, how many labels would you like to go through?
Dr Bibi:Wow. Really?
Amanda:Yeah, and I'm like, I understand that, but who you are doesn't mean you can't have it's inherent in the system.
Dr Bibi:I don't understand that. I, I, I think you can be. You can be black and be racist. Like,
Amanda:Yeah. Oh, I meant the inherent in the system of like, with dance classes, like Leta has an eye tracking issue and the way they were trying to teach her to do pirouettes did not work with her. I tracking issue. It made her dizzier.
Leta:Don't forget to teach us. That's it. I cannot have a bad right hip because I have autism. I didn't mean to put quotation marks near the autism.
Amanda:She's also, she does have a deformed right hip and she, we've been told, you know, well, maybe we can pop it into place, right? with ballet.
Leta:It's been 13 f Fuckin years. Up to now that I'm 11 months old, I know things poppin back in, and I fuckin give a fuck back, and that would be medical problems as hell.
Amanda:You can tell she has a little bit of a, she's found her voice.
Dr Bibi:love that. No, that's, that's really important. I, um, to be honest, I think that any, if we ever were to just kind of say that to someone, like you're being ableist or that's ableist, um, human beings are going to put up their defenses because they, they sort of are like, Oh no, you're categorizing me. Um, and, and I think that exactly because of what you said, because it's in the culture and because all of us have it, all of us have it just like we all have racism. Um, you have to have really intentionally done the work or have had experiences that, um, you know, kind of really help you to see, um, So, I think the biggest thing, you know, that, I mean, I'd like to say that I try to give people some grace, but it, but I don't always, especially when people are in certain positions. So, like, for example, I really think that if you're an educator, um, you do part, you know, doing the work of reflecting on all of that as part of your ethical responsibility. Your professional ethical responsibility, um, I think if it's just sort of like, you know, random people on the street, there's, there's a way to, um, kind of unpack it in such a way that's. Slightly more empathic, not that that is your responsibility, but I do think that I do think that ultimately communicating in such a way that wins people people over is essential. Um, I don't necessarily, like I said, extend that same kind of grace to people who are in positions where they're supposed to have done that work.
Amanda:I will admit I've had, cause I've done advocacy helping parents get IEPs. And I do get a little annoyed at the school administrators going, you should know this by now.
Dr Bibi:Yeah. Yeah, um, it is, you know, the, the, the, the thing is the thing with our entire special education law and special education system is that it is actually built on the pillars of ableism. Right. It's all about, you know, this is the way that we teach for like your typical kid. You fall outside of that. We are going to be these nice saviors now that are going to allow you some access despite your problem. Um, however, we're also going to fight you every single step of the way. And only if you have money or have resources and education, can you fight us on it? So, um, it's not like, You know, people tend to think like, oh, you know, we have a special education system. We're just so wonderful. Um, but no, it's, it's very much based on the same principles. I
Amanda:a lot of dance teachers and I'm trying to extend the grace I should a lot of times. So I have a 13 year old pushing me in the background who doesn't necessarily. A lot of them are educators in their 9 to 5. They're special ed educators. And I'm like, I'm concerned that you don't know how to teach her and dance if you're teaching kids and
Dr Bibi:It's, it's unfortunate to say, uh, but that's the fact. A lot of educators and especially special ed educators, um, haven't, haven't really done the reflection and because again, the training, right? All of special education training is rooted in ableism. So we're all. Trained to think that way. Um, and you really do have to go through, um, you know, I mean, I, I, I'm going to use this word carefully, um, but you have to kind of go through a decolonization process because colonization is this idea of training everyone to be neurotypical, like training sameness among everyone. Um, so, so, yeah, they, they haven't done that. So it, it, it doesn't surprise me, unfortunately.
Amanda:it shouldn't surprise me, but it does. I'm like, how and. Blame it on one of my best friends. She's works with an amazing, uh, professor who does special education. And I'm like, if everyone had you as a teacher, as your professor, but
Dr Bibi:and I mean, that's 1 of the reasons that, um, I, I, I really think the, the place to really kind of insert, uh, the, you know, the, the pushback is in the training that is the most important, uh, time to kind of ask people to. Critically examine what it is that they're learning. I mean, that's that's I think again, surprising, but unfortunate for people who are in fields like education is, you know, you go through teacher training programs and there's actually very little critical thought about. You know, questioning the curriculum that we're being given or questioning the pedagogy that's being used to teach us. We just kind of accepted. We take it on and then we replicate it with students and then we get mad and we say, well, why aren't our students, you know, critical thinkers? Well, that's because we weren't and we didn't do that work. So, yeah, that is, I, I, I agree with you. Um, that is the place where we have to insert, I think, at the current moment anyway. I think it's going to become more and more difficult to, to do that.
Amanda:yeah, and they're down in New Mexico, Texas area. So they've been having. His claws just got into her leg and she stretched. Um,
Dr Bibi:Oh my
Amanda:like, this is my person. I don't know if
Dr Bibi:I know, she's
Amanda:my person.
Dr Bibi:rude to her. I love it. So lucky.
Amanda:does not like it when she goes to the dance studio or when we're traveling for her dance He sits and whimpers at the door. I've been told by my husband waiting for her to come home.
Dr Bibi:They are, yeah, that is her dog. That is her soul mate.
Amanda:Oh, yeah She's like i'm laughing because He is he is her puppy. I did get, we have a rule at our studio that we do allow service dogs and I had a few dance studios in town go, wait, you can have service dogs for autism.
Dr Bibi:Oh my god.
Amanda:saying you're ableist. I'm just saying. Service dogs do exist because I've never used the word ableist, but I'm like, yeah, no, you can have service dogs for autism. Autism has a lot of service dogs
Dr Bibi:You're not even allowed to ask that question. I don't understand.
Leta:plus when we have a building where we can allow every other animal of service animal.
Amanda:She's like, we're offering every service and you're not allowed to ask the question, but the number of these dance studios who don't understand what the ADA is.
Dr Bibi:Yeah. You know, you know one way that they will learn very quickly though is to let them know that it's illegal to ask that question.
Amanda:Yeah. Um, the only reason I have made it clear is because I don't want parents thinking, oh, I can't come because the number of parents who've called us. The number of parents who have called us up going, Oh, my child needs X, Y, Z accommodation. And I'm like, of course we're going to give them the accommodation. I just need you to tell me what you need. So we're trying to be proactive and go, if you've got a service dog, I'm not asking you any questions other than what accommodations does your child need?
Dr Bibi:Yeah. Oh, well, I think it's incredible that, I mean, I, I do want to kind of emphasize You know, sometimes we, we don't recognize, but all the shifts are actually happening within these small conversations and these small interactions. That is the way that we. That we slowly chip away at the culture and change it. It's exhausting. Um, but I think kind of reframing and recognizing that it's not, um, you know, it's, it's, you're not just kind of like doing this in the void, you might not see it, you might not kind of see the impact of it, but it will, it does have an impact on people and they will begin to think, um, and be a little bit more reflective. So, I hope that you guys don't ever stop pushing back.
Amanda:I don't think she knows how to stop pushing back. I am this newer gen, younger generation.
Leta:Oh yes, unlike you, I know a thing called I GOT RIGHTS! And if I don't got rights, I don't will get rights, and I don't, well, don't care about prison, I will go to prison!
Dr Bibi:Well, let's hope it doesn't go there, but yeah. You,
Amanda:When I was her age, you know, a lot of the therapies were to try and teach you to be neurotypical
Dr Bibi:yeah, I mean, I think they still are in many ways. They still are. Um, but, you know, certainly we, we have, um, I think a lot more positive conversation around these issues now than before. We'll see though how, if that changes moving forward.
Amanda:a little bit of stuff going on in DC right now I
Dr Bibi:how, um, changing the Department of Education could impact special education law. I mean, that's huge. Uh, so we'll see.
Amanda:will admit there's like one or two things I'm like, can we tweak just this part? I just want to tweak just a little bit of the autism laws from the 70s. I
Dr Bibi:Uh, there's so, there's so much that we need to tweak and change. Yeah.
Amanda:know I have to tell people with TRICARE that if they get services through the schools, they no longer can get services through TRICARE, but the schools don't know that. And they tell the parents, well, we'll get you the services through the schools, but because the schools then go, goes and charges their TRICARE. It takes away their insurance benefits.
Dr Bibi:Oh my gosh.
Amanda:And it's a 1978 law. And I'm like that law right there. Can I change that law?
Dr Bibi:Well, you know, maybe we, we get together and try to advocate to change that law.
Amanda:I've worked from inside and the problem seems to be some of those older, it's the education committee keeps going, but we need this right. And I'm like, I love you guys over at the education committee, but could you come see how this works on this side? I think she's been pushed off her couch.
Dr Bibi:I was just gonna say, I love how now the dog is like completely taken over and he is like on the floor.
Amanda:He's a little spoiled rotten if you
Dr Bibi:Oh my goodness. What a sweetheart.
Amanda:Circling back because I do have ADHD, I'm sure that's become apparent by now. Um, she's having way too much fun over there.
Dr Bibi:So cute.
Amanda:social justice issue, I don't think, I wanted to circle back to that because I've had a lot of the dance studio owners that we know across the country go. But why do they need extra rights? And it's like, I'm not asking for extra rights. we're asking for equal rights.
Dr Bibi:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's sort of, it's this idea of, um, I mean, it's a little bit like all the conversation around DEI right now, where it's this assumption of if we, if, if we cut, if we level the playing field, so everyone is able to kind of compete, not compete, but like participate, then that's somehow taking away. The rights of people who were there before we leveled the playing field. So, um, yeah, I mean, I, I, I think the, the, uh, one way that I think people tend to understand, um, is if you give them concrete examples, um, so. You know, like, 1 thing that people tend to not always, but tend to understand is, like, more around, um, physical disabilities that are very, um, you know, easy to see and understand and think about. Um, so sometimes kind of. Trying to unpack it in that way to help them see, like, it's, it's not anything extra. It's just enough for everyone to be able to, um, to participate, but it, it, it's difficult because, you know, the, the other reason, again, coming back to this issue of disability being a social justice, um, problem, is that, We really do think that if someone is not able bodied and neurotypical, that they're dispensable. Um, and again, that comes from our capitalist thinking, like, um, this question of, well, why should everybody else be uncomfortable? Because this 1 person, um, you know, that's really the, the mentality and I think, unfortunately, 1 of the things that people don't recognize is how, how close we all are to being a member of society. The disability community, um, and, you know, that, that's something that just doesn't really enter people's minds until they are in it. Um, and, and, and what that means once, once you have, uh, you know, once you're not really part of the productive force in the same way, in the same way. Um, and ironically, I think COVID. Maybe helped with that. I think some people maybe began to see like, oh, like something could happen. And all of a sudden a large, you know, you can have a mass disabling events, um, but then ultimately, in some ways, it didn't because we're all back to the, the cultural force is very strong.
Amanda:It is definitely extremely strong. Um, I know a few dance teachers,'cause we know people across the country and across the world, uh, because of her dance career. And they're like, well, Leta did it. And I'm like, well, one. She pushed through and she did what she had to do. She, you know, dealt with you guys until she got fed up and went, I'm not dealing with you anymore.
Dr Bibi:Mm hmm.
Amanda:But you shouldn't to deal with it. If that makes any sense at all.
Dr Bibi:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, it's, it's sort of like, well, you suffered through it. Why can't everyone else also suffer through it? And it's like, well, why should everyone, why should anyone suffer through it if we all just kind of, um, extend a bit more understanding and humanity? Um, but yeah, it's, it's, again, it's really difficult to constantly come up against these things again and again, but it's also important to remember that that is the work, that, that is what is, you know, changes things. You just keep, you just keep pushing back.
Amanda:I'm totally off the dance stuff, but we've had Within the dance studio, I'm mentoring a lot of these young parents who are new to the journey of having an autistic kid who didn't go through it themselves. And I know you work with IEPs and things, and I asked this to all my guests so that maybe I can get this through my parents head. One of our school systems in town doesn't like handing over copies of the IEPs to parents.
Dr Bibi:What? Yet
Amanda:So I'm asking all of my guests who deal with IEPs, are parents allowed copies of the IEP?
Dr Bibi:allowed, the school is required by law to provide that. That's unbelievable to me.
Amanda:That's saying which school, but I'm
Dr Bibi:How would they get a signature without providing it?
Amanda:they're having the parents sign it in the meeting. And then they're like, we keep this and you guys don't get a copy.
Dr Bibi:So, the first thing that I actually always say to any parent, um, is do not ever agree to sign anything at the meeting, ever, ever, ever. Always say, please forward that to me, I will sign it and send it back. So that's the first thing. Um, don't ever sign anything, don't ever agree to anything, um, especially in writing at the meetings. Um, And then, yeah, no, they are not the response to that is always you're required to give me a copy of that, but I wouldn't even let them. I wouldn't even let it go there. I wouldn't sign it at the meeting period because you really do need time. You real that is a big, difficult document to go through. You have to understand it. I always recommend parents have an advocate with them. If, if they're able to afford a professional advocate, get that. If not, see within your community if there are people who offer that service for free. If not, take your neighbor, take your aunt, take your cousin, whoever you can. Just having someone else there with you is hugely important. Um, and then always with any documentation, say please. Send that to me. I will review it. Do take the time to review it. If you can't take an advocate with you, see if you can get someone to review it with you, um, outside of the meeting, um, and then always keep a copy. And I think right now, um, definitely keep a physical copy of everything.
Amanda:Yeah. I mean, I've got, we only went through it once with her and her preschool teacher. She was in Montessori came with us and I. Spent half my time telling her Montessori teacher to take 500 deep breaths because she'd never been in an IEP meeting that got that contentious
Dr Bibi:Yes, they're unfortunately, it's so, I mean, again, it links back to the ableism. Like, this should actually be a meeting that is, you know, where the family and the school comes together to support a student and the fact that it is Always, one against the other, tells you everything you need to know about our culture, um, and how we treat our friends.
Amanda:yeah, the school system thought her teacher would be on her side and I'm sitting there going. I don't know if you understand how Montessori works. It's not the way your public school system works,
Dr Bibi:Wow.
Amanda:but they were, she was young, she was four years old when we were going through it and I'm sitting there going, I'm just doing this so that I can say no at the end and get my insurance to pay for it.
Leta:They said I was aggressive, and yet they looked at a freakin boy throwing a freakin hammer and almost giving everyone a freakin concussion, telling some of the girls he just liked them, yeah, definitely when a boy is giving you almost giving you a concussion, he definitely likes you, yeah. And yet they look at the crying girl because she doesn't know what the fuck is going on, and they say, That's aggressive! Definitely not the boy that is giving almost everyone death's door!
Amanda:So
Dr Bibi:know, that is a whole other, that is a whole other, um, very related, but like, she's, you know, that is, um, issues of sexism coming out, even in settings like that.
Amanda:And that was her Montessori teacher the whole time was like, cause I filled it out having done multiple years of it, lying on some stuff going, I'm not going to do that. Cause I know how they're going to react to it. I'm not, and her teacher was like, yeah, she's having meltdowns in class because she can't understand me and we need to work on this. And they're like, oh, so she's aggressive. And her teacher was like, no, that's not what I said. I said, she's having meltdowns. And I'm like. No, that's what you said. You just called the child aggressive because she's a girl and she's crying. So,
Dr Bibi:Well, that's the other thing is, you know, it's sort of this idea of treating, like, even if we use the word aggressive, right? Treating that as something concrete in the character or the brain and the body of the child, as opposed to, okay, well, you know, what is in the environment that could be bringing up this aggression? Um, I think that's another way in which our systems,
Amanda:and her Montessori teacher had a list of what she thought was bringing up the issues that she was hoping the school system would help fix.
Dr Bibi:Yeah, yeah,
Amanda:And they were like, looking at her like she'd grown a second head going, no, no, she's just aggressive. And her Montessori teacher's like, but this is because she doesn't understand me. She's not receptive to my language. How do we make her receptive to my language?
Dr Bibi:Yeah, we do. It's just so much easier to put the blame on the individual. Than to ask and, you know, this is something that happens, you know, not just in schools. I mean, I feel like this even happens in families, right? And, and work with families, um, often, you know, cause I, I do a lot of home visits and like, over time, I observe, you know, parents, then the child's environment's a lot and I think one of the really tragic things that we also do in our system is we You know, we're so quick to kind of give a child a diagnosis, um, like a personality disorder or, you know, whatever, um, without, I mean, I don't know how many psychologists actually do home visits over a long period of time before they make a site, you know, a diagnosis. So, yeah, it's, um, unfortunately, it's just the way that our system is.
Amanda:I will say that's the first IEP meeting I'd ever been in where the school was against the school system.
Dr Bibi:Hmm.
Amanda:like, I, this is weird for me. I've done 10 years of this. Uh, you're supposed to be on the other side, like, arguing she doesn't need this.
Dr Bibi:Aye, aye, aye.
Amanda:I got to sit back and go, yeah, you just go argue that. I'm just going to be here trying to be the one mediating. And she still calls me up going, I've got another 1 and the system is just sitting there going, well, she's a girl. This is what's wrong with her. And she's like, or she doesn't understand language. How do we work with this?
Dr Bibi:Well, that's, you know, since you're bringing up language, I think, again, I think that's another big, big thing, because when, when we do teacher training, and even with special education, we really focus on reading and writing, um, and we forget that there's this whole language component, um, that, you know, begins in much earlier childhood, and because so much of teacher training is sort of after the child enters the school, there is no training or understanding on language. Um,
Amanda:Tried to explain that to her because she was, you know, in a young Montessori school, it's a 3 to 6 year old group. So they had that early childhood and Leta was at the point. She didn't understand. You need to go to the bathroom before you go. Outside. Unbelievably enough, she did not have receptive or expressive language until she was like six. And now I can't get her to shut up sometimes.
Dr Bibi:She's just a late bloomer.
Amanda:She was, uh, she's like, it's not my fault. She's like, it's not my fault. Her Montessori teacher was sitting there going, Oh, the school system's here to help. Famous last words in some situations, most situations. And she was like, I can't get through to her. What do you guys know? Because you're the speech therapist. What do you know that can help me in this situation? And I was like, yeah.
Dr Bibi:exactly. Exactly. Oh,
Amanda:school speech therapist was like, well, we can't work with her until she has receptive and expressive language.
Dr Bibi:my God.
Amanda:And I was like, that is all I needed you to say so that I can go to her doctor and go, look, they can't do it. My insurance is now paying for
Dr Bibi:yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, sometimes, unfortunately, that is kind of the, the strategy that you have to take with schools is instead of trying to get them to understand and get them to do what's necessary, you need to get them to say they can't do it so you can go somewhere where they can do it. So yeah, that's probably pretty smart.
Amanda:it. Came from years of having done it with other parents going. So we're going into this meeting for them to say the words I can't, and hopefully put it down on paper for me.
Dr Bibi:Yeah, yeah,
Amanda:Cause while I don't want you to sign anything in the meeting, I desperately want them to sign something in this meeting.
Dr Bibi:yes, yes. Gosh,
Amanda:I've spent way too much time. Arguing with school districts on what they have to give children.
Dr Bibi:yeah, I mean, that, that is, that is sort of the, the battleground and this is another reason why I think, uh, it's so, um, you know, people just really don't understand that. They're like, oh, we have these laws, right? We have these programs. So we've got this figured out, um, and they don't understand that. It's like a daily. non stop battle for every single thing. Even once you get everything on paper, um, and
Amanda:still a battle.
Dr Bibi:it's still a battle.
Amanda:My other favorite one is we'll go into a meeting and someone will at the meeting go, Oh, can we 504 this? No, because I know you're trying to get out of it at this point.
Dr Bibi:Yeah, they don't want to pay for it.
Amanda:Yeah. I'm like, you are not 504 ing. Anything that involves speech O. T. Any of that? No, no. 504 is not going to happen.
Dr Bibi:And that's, you know, again, you are very well informed on this. Like most, most parents don't even understand what that means. They're just, and, and they put their trust in the school system. That is the issue. They, they trust that the people who are in charge of their child's education are going to do right by them. Um, and they just sort of blindly go with whatever they say, not recognizing that. Actually, the school is not doing what's best for your child. That's a fact. Yes, I'd love to
Amanda:You have a thought in that head.
Leta:switch it out, guess what I should say? It's 48 and 43, 44 minutes into this in seconds. So, uh, are you planning to go full hour?
Amanda:Yeah, she's over there keeping track of time because she knows I like to go over.
Leta:Like, seriously, are you thinking about going full hour or not? Tell me!
Amanda:I'm just I'm enjoying the conversation. We're gonna have to have you back on again.
Leta:tell me how long you wanted this to be?
Dr Bibi:stop at three o'clock. So, four more minutes.
Amanda:Um, let's, uh, go ahead and wrap this up then. Um, if you'd like to, if you'd be willing to come back on in a few months, we'd love to have you on again.
Dr Bibi:Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Leta:you need to
Dr Bibi:Um, my, uh, book, which is actually meant for educators, um, is fully, hopefully, if all out, if all goes well, we'll be out, um, in August, so maybe kind of in anticipation of that, I can come and we can chat about,
Amanda:We would love to have you. Come on in August to do that if you don't mind.
Dr Bibi:yeah, yeah, yeah, just, um, let me know, keep, keep in touch and, and I'm sure that we can. We can find the time again.
Amanda:I will definitely thank you so much for coming on. Where can people find you on the web?
Dr Bibi:Um, so the best way my website is w it's kind of long. It's www. oneofonekids. org. Um, I'm also pretty active on LinkedIn. It's sort of where I try to put out as much information as I can around social justice issues, um, around, uh, around disability. Um, so that's another good place to kind of find me.
Amanda:We will make sure all that's in the description below. And we keep a list of all our, uh, former guests and all of the current upcoming guests on the website. So you'll be able to find all the information on the website as well.
Dr Bibi:Okay, sounds good. Um,
Amanda:much for coming on.
Dr Bibi:Thank you so much for having me. Leta, I do, I was going to ask, I was going to request to see if I can get a picture of your dog at some point.
Amanda:We
Dr Bibi:to show it to a couple of my students and show them, like, how cool a dog he is.
Amanda:We will definitely send a picture. He heard his daddy come home, so he ran upstairs.
Dr Bibi:Oh, God.
Leta:how, Shelby, do you want him to look in the picture? Cause I got ones where he looks potato as potato can get.
Dr Bibi:I think the bigger the better.
Leta:Let us in, Monroe. Okay, great.
Dr Bibi:Yeah.
Amanda:Well, we better let you go so you can get to your next appointment.
Dr Bibi:Thank you so much. Great to see you guys. Big hugs to the puppy. Take care.
Amanda:Alright, bye.
Dr Bibi:Bye.
Leta:Hey well, thank you for watching the podcast and please subscribe and also look at that adorable paper. Don't you want to subscribe for it and also please leave a like and don't forget if you subscribe to our stuff you won't miss any of our new podcast stuffies and also you can see that adorable paper. Don't you like it?
