Leta's Tap Styles
Thirteen years old Leta is a member of Chloe Arnold's international youth tap company, SoleTalk, a podcaster, a founder of a nonprofit dance studio for autistic dancers like her, severely dyslexic, and has autism. Along with her mom, Amanda, Leta discusses a varity of issues from the bullying Leta has faced in dance studios because of her autism and dyslexia, to the difficulties of starting a new nonprofit. Along the way, Leta and Amanda also talk about Leta's love of tap dancing. They also host special guests ranging from Leta's dance family and friends, to experts in ASD, to parents and advocates of complex kids.
Leta's Tap Styles
Navigating Neurodivergence with Michael Cole
In this episode of the 'Tap Styles' podcast, hosts Leta and Amanda welcome Michael. They discuss Michael's autism diagnosis journey, workplace challenges, and the importance of accommodations for autistic individuals. They emphasize the need for understanding and supportive environments, particularly in work and school settings. The conversation critiques traditional ABA therapy and how traditional ABA promotes harmful practices. Michael talks about his own advocacy work and podcast, stressing the significance of safe spaces and authentic living for neurodivergent individuals. Leta shares her experiences with dance teachers and the importance of a supportive, inclusive environment in her dance studio. The episode underscores the value of embracing neurodiversity and the detrimental effects of masking.
The Deep Dive Podcast website – http://www.deepdiveau.net
Check out Michael's socials –
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61560333886558
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-deep-dive-podcast
Instagram - @thedeepdiveau
TikTok - @thedeepdiveau
Check Michael's YouTube Channel http://www.youtube.com/@TheDeepDiveAU
Check out Michael's Interviews on other podcasts - http://linktr.ee/michaelcoles
Hi, this is editing Amanda from the future. I know you haven't listened to the podcast yet cause I'm coming on before we even started the podcast. Our guest today, Michael, uh, lives in Australia. He's in Queensland area. I have contacted him, which I know everyone wants to know, or is going to ask, is he safe from the, uh, cyclone? He is safe from the cyclone. He and his family, uh, have. Survive the floodings, uh, our hearts and our prayers go out to everyone affected in Australia with the cyclone and the historical floods that they're facing. If you can donate anything to the. That to the non government organizations who are helping out. Do so, if you can't, we understand, but Michael and his family are safe and that is the important part.
Leta:Hello, this is Leta, and this is me and my mommy's podcast. And there's my mommy, and there's me, and I'm just talking about this stuff. And there's me tap dancing, because this is a tap dancing slash autism podcast. And there's a bunch of animals, and a wallby trying to eat my hair. And there's a bunch of sand and ocean. Also, there's all the SoleTalk stuff. I love all my mentors and friends. All that going on, so old. Yeah, it's like life's coming to an end. Oh, and also, there's my boots. My boots are amazing. Also, there's me, trying not to have a panic attack. Also, this is a podcast about me. my autism, tap dancing, and blah, blah, blah. I'm just ADHD and this is it. Also, there's my cute, adorable puppies.. Hello, and it's me, Leta, and that is my mummy, and this is a human being, and we are doing the podcast, Tap Styles. Welcome back, if you've been here before. If you haven't been here before, we are talking about tap, and autism, and craziness. And then it's gonna be a bunch of ADHD.
Amanda:Um, so today we have a special guest Michael Cole's from the deep dive podcast. Michael. I am absolutely terrible at introducing our guests. Do you mind. Telling our listeners a little bit about yourself,
Michael:Okay. So I'm a 50 year old autistic that basically, well, firstly, I was diagnosed with a condition called PDD NOS when I was three back in 1978. And then there was diagnosed with autism, um, with Asperger's syndrome back in 2010. So that was obviously when I was 35 and then I got re diagnosed with, um, Autism spectrum disorder back in 2017. Um, I had a meltdown in November, November, 2023 after quite a few, um, quite a few changes in my workplace. So what actually happened is basically there was a couple of people that actually left and then what, uh, what occurred was basically sort of, they changed all these sort of like, you know, My workplace sort of like the way I do my work and all that type of thing, which basically sort of like, you know, caused a lot of stress and stuff like that within my life. And then basically sort of, I couldn't tolerate it anymore. And then basically sort of, it caused a big meltdown. So yeah, so I had to be hospitalized. Um, With that, because basically I sort of, I, I basically like my wife texts me and basically sort of like, you know, notice, are you okay, are you okay and all that type of thing. And then what actually happened is I couldn't, I tried to sort of like, you know, play around and then basically 10 o'clock in the morning. What actually happened is basically I sort of take the, I rang the one three health number, which was the health number in Queensland. And basically they called an ambulance. So they were quite concerned about my mental health at the time.
Amanda:um, you were mentioning the changes at your workplace. Uh, a lot of our listeners are either new parents to, um, the road of autism or people who work in the entertainment industry, but don't know what autism is. They don't completely understand why. Changes to the workplace would cause issues. Do you mind going into a little bit about that?
Michael:Well, it's basically, I have a sort of like, you know, a system that basically works for me. So basically I developed a system that basically worked for me. And also sort of like, you know, I like to ask a lot of questions in relation to sort of like, you know, um, with my autism. Basically sort of supply to sort of document how my autism affects me, how I like to work with my autism and stuff like that. And obviously sort of like, you know, um, with my condition sometimes I like, I mean, I have decision paralysis sometimes, so I need to sort of get sort of like some advice from others and stuff like that. Um, well, I had people that basically sort of worked with me and basically sort of knew exactly what I was, you know, talking about and stuff like that. And they could understand me, but this new person decided to basically sort of, so I'd say the, look, this is not good enough. You've got to make the own decisions and stuff like that. And it's, yeah, it's just. They sort of didn't understand my autism at the time. And the fact is basically they sort of, even though I sort of explained it in sort of my own words and stuff like that, they just still ignored me.
Amanda:I think both of us can understand that. Can you understand that Leta? She's giving me a look like I'm not sure I'm talky today.
Michael:Okay.
Amanda:She's kind of been, she gets a little heated when talking about this because even at 13, she's had dance teachers who are like, I understand your autism, but I won't give you the accommodations you need because I don't understand. Dan, why you need those accommodations.
Michael:Yeah. Which is, it just feels like, you know, a lot of people just still don't understand the autism, the autistic condition and stuff like that. And they decided to sort of like, you know, make their own decisions. And I just feel like, you know. Basically it's, it's better to work in a collaborative type of way, rather than sort of like, you know, going, going with, you know, the sort of like, you know, the, the, like, it's basically the, my way, the highway approach. So it's sort of like, it's not really collaborative. It's not really sort of like integrating and stuff like that. What you can do, like a strengths first approach and stuff like that. So. Because I know sort of a lot of people, a lot of us autistics, they can sort of do very well in one particular area. So, I mean, sort of like for a fact is that, you know, um, You know, basically sometimes, you know, people just don't understand me and stuff like that. And they sort of have their own sort of like ways and means of doing things. So it's, yeah, sometimes it just doesn't make sense and stuff like that. You know, basically we just, we've got our own way of working. We've got our own strengths. So why not embrace them?
Amanda:That makes perfect sense. I know she's had dance teachers who were like, um, she's got an eye tracking issues. So she tracks right to left bottom to top
Michael:Yep. Yep. Yep.
Amanda:and the way they teach a pirouette involves eye tracking and they're like, for some reason. Leta will not do this properly and I'm like, cause her eyes don't work that way.
Michael:Exactly. Cause it's sort of like, you know, it's sort of, it's, it's, it's, you know, we, we just, you know, just, we, we actually sort of like, you know, in, interpret the world a lot differently than what others do. So it's sort of, you know, we're trying to sort of like close the gap in sort of one way or another, but sort of like, you know, we're not trying to sort of, we're just trying to sort of. Help people to sort of like, you know, interpret the world and be their authentic self rather than having to make them change and stuff like that to suit them, which I just feel it's wrong.
Amanda:I think you hit the nail on the head right there with the authentic self. Cause, uh, Leta, you wanna. Jump in and say anything. I will let you speak. I told her she couldn't use a lot of cuss words this episode What would you like to say?
Leta:I don't know.
Amanda:She's like, I
Michael:It's all right. I must have confused you to a degree. I do apologize.
Amanda:That's okay. Uh, I think that's the authentic self She's had a few teacher dance teachers because we homeschool her cuz I was like I'm not dealing with the dance world and school world and Private school world. I'm only able to deal with one of you crazy world
Michael:Yeah, exactly. Cause I know, I know sort of like, you know, a lot of people when they sort of like, you know, They try and sort of like, you know, we mentioned we're openly autistic and stuff like that. Um, I know our daughter went to another sort of like school and stuff like that, which we had to change schools because they basically discriminated against us. She couldn't cope with the amount of students that were there. She basically got, you know, um, they didn't put any accommodations and stuff like that, even though sort of like, you know, we were paying sort of like a big amount of, of money and stuff like that for that particular school. But I mean, we are sort of at the. We're at a novice school now, which is basically sort of very accommodating. And I know sort of like, you know, there was sort of trying to embrace her authentic self and they, and she's doing really well out of that. So, I mean, sometimes when you just feel that, you know, some people are just not listening or just, you know, just not feeling, you know, just not integral, not sort of like, like this sort of like, you know, basically sort of saying, you know, it's. You gotta sort of do it our way. And just, I just feel like, you know, that's, it's better to sort of like, you know, basically sort of like, you know, it's, it makes sense to sort of like, you know, just, you know, basically sort of like, you know, have a bit of a balance and stuff like that. So we can sort of try and sort of, you know, have a working solution.
Amanda:It does. And I know we were talking earlier lead and I that Masking and, uh, being who they want you to be causes a lot of emotional strain. I don't think that these adults know it causes.
Michael:Yeah. And exactly. Well, I think there's sort of. Well, I have to say a little bit ignorant of the fact because, um, we're sort of like, you know, I know in the States and stuff like that, um, a lot of, uh, um, applied behavioral, um, I don't know what it's ABA and stuff like that. I don't know what it's caused by, but so yeah, but it's, yeah, it's, it's not very healthy and it's, it's basically sort of like, you know, teaching people not to be their authentic self. They're basically teaching them how to mask and how to like assimilate and stuff like that, which is. It's not very healthy. I mean, sort of like, it's sort of, isn't it better to sort of like, you know, basically sort of like, you know, this is, this is how I sort of like act in, in sort of like a regular basis. Like we'll have to sort of encourage people to sort of like, you know, do their own stimming and stuff like that. Why is there criticism about stimming and stuff like that? So, you know, you need to sort of like stim to be able to sort of like, you know, get your emotions out and stuff like that. I mean, this is how I am and stuff. This is how I am. And sometimes when I get nervous, if my speech is a little bit broken, by the way, I do have, um, uh, expressive language disorder and receptive language disorder as well, which I got diagnosed by a speech therapist early this year. So sometimes I do don't make sense or I make sort of like, you know, comments from, or I make sort of like, you know, stats. Sentences like in the middle of a, uh, middle of a story, rather the beginning of a story. So sometimes it doesn't make sense or it's a bit jumbled and all that type of thing. It tends to happen when I'm stressed though, as well.
Amanda:You look like
Leta:Well, if it helps, my mother may never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever make sense.
Michael:Yeah,
Amanda:I tend to start in the middle of stories too. So don't worry about it, Michael. It
Michael:all good because you know, it's sort of like, this is the way we talk and stuff like that. We just, we can just relate, which is, I think, excellent, I think.
Amanda:Oh yeah. Leta, did you want to talk about ABA for just a minute? Because I saw you
Leta:Pure evil. I'm pretty sure they made an agreement with the devil.
Michael:Yes, I have to sort of agree with that because they're trying to sort of like, well, there's been sort of like, you know, some in some areas of the world, they're trying to sort of like, you know, put the, the ABA sort of system and stuff like that in place and stuff like that for autistics. It's not very healthy and stuff like that. So it's better to have the neuroaffirming way and it's a more accepting way because I mean, sort of, it's more strengths based. It's also also you're trying to sort of like, you know, you want to make sure that sort of like, you know, people can, you know, basically bring their authentic selves to the table. And I mean, sort of like, you know, everybody. Is except, I know a lot of people more accepting of, you know, people's authentic self. We just don't sort of tolerate that sort of like, you know, the thing that we're trying to sort of like, you know, get put on us and stuff like that, rather than sort of like, you know, we don't want to be silenced. We want to be sort of like who we are. We want to try and sort of like, you know, be authentic with who we are and we just don't. take that sort of like, you know, um, crap.
Amanda:yeah, she was in ABA therapy for five weeks and it has scarred her for life.
Michael:Yeah. So that's why we're trying to sort of like, you know, I'm part of the Australian Neurodivergent Parents Association and we're trying to sort of like, you know, trying to sort of like, you know, get that thing or get those sort of like treatments away from people and stuff like that. So that's what we're trying to do here.
Amanda:We have a problem in the U. S. that the people who are pushing for it the hardest are actually parents of autistic kids.
Michael:Yeah, which I feel it's a shame.
Amanda:it is, uh, they're pretty much, you can take it if you want to real quick.
Leta:I think. This helps. Essentially, there's a good amount of those people who only support the puzzle people.
Amanda:I will need to explain that for people who don't understand, uh, autism speaks, uh, wants to cure autism and wants to find the genes
Michael:yeah. And they're trying to cure autism and yeah, no, I know a lot of people don't want autism to be cured. They want to basically sort of be themselves. So I think it's sort of like, it's sort of like there's a rhetoric of sort of in some way around the world. I think sort of like, uh, there was a Dali Mail article, I think it was like. Couple of days ago, basically sort of saying this is miracle drugs and stuff like that, that can cure autism and stuff like that, or, you know, make people sort of verbal and stuff like that, where, you know, it's sort of like, I mean, autism is a condition and stuff like that. It's a, it's, it's a difference in being and stuff like that. And you just want to basically make sure that you're, you could exist how you authentically are and not having to change. You know, basically yourself and then what they're trying to do is basically change yourself. And I don't, I don't think that's right.
Amanda:it is definitely not right. And autism speaks, uh, was very clear that there could be no one with autism on their board.
Leta:They're evil. They help, they try to murder unborn baby. That's just evil. That's just evil. That's crossing lines you should not cross. That's evil.
Michael:Yeah, well, I have to sort of say something about this lived experience. I mean, lived experience is most vital for people on boards and stuff like that. If, if people, you know, basically just all the neurotypical, so to speak, you know, just have sort of like, you know, people with just themselves, rather than sort of like, you know, having the lived experience on their boards, because, you know, most commonly. It's, you know, the child is autistic, but it's most likely it's hereditary as well. So you could sort of say the parents are autistic. So, I mean, it's sort of like, it can be hereditary and stuff like that, because it's sort of like, it's, it's part of their DNA, so to speak. So, you know, you've got, you know, sometimes, you know, if it's sort of like, you know, it can sort of like, you know, be in the parents and the child, but it most commonly gets diagnosed with the child first. And then sort of like, you know, with the parent, it Does actually sort of like, you know, being the parent. So, you mean you sort of, it's like, I mean, I've been living sort of like, you know, 50 years on this planet. I mean, basically just trying to sort of tell me to. Not be myself and stuff like that. And sort of try and sort of like, you know, integrate within sort of like, you know, our society, but you know, there's been more, there's a lot more acceptance now compared to what there was even like 10, 15 years ago. I mean, there's a lot of people that sort of like, you know, except my daughter for who she is, they accept me for who I am. I found my neuro kin and that's also very important to me as well. I've joined a, uh, a, um. A group called Neuro Access, which is, uh, a, a group run by a person, a neuro, uh, access, or sorry, a neurodivergent advocate called Annie Crow, who is actually sort of like a, a human rights lawyer by trade. Um, and she wants to basically try and sort of like, you know, Help people to be their authentic self. And they want to make sure they can, they can sort of join with their uniform with the, with, you know, basically sort of join with their neuro kin, because I know sort of like, you know, they can share their issues with their neuro kin. They could sort of like not be judged because of their neuro, because of their autism and that type of thing. So I think it's very important to sort of, you know, basically have that connection as well.
Amanda:It definitely is. I think a lot of these parents on, uh, it's not just autism. Speaks. There's the, uh, parents of severely autistic kids and a bunch of other boards or nonprofit groups in the U S don't think they got the support to be their authentic self and just be parents who love their kids.
Michael:Exactly. And sort of like, you know, isn't it better to sort of like, you know, the parents that love their kids and try and get the best out of. Get the best for them and stuff like that. So I think, I think it's essential to get the best for them and stuff like that. Cause it's sort of like, it's a more caring society and sort of like the importance of connection and also sort of like, you know, basically feeling that they're supported. They're loved. They're sort of like, you know, they sort of appreciate it for who they are. Very, very important.
Amanda:It definitely is. And, um, We, I know we here in the U. S. have been finally starting to do some research into masking and into what all masking does to the human body.
Michael:Yeah, it does cause meltdowns and shutdowns. And also sort of in my case, it basically caused a meltdown, which basically called, which I needed to go to hospital for, because I was, I mean, like a lot of people, like, you know, they're trying to sort of like, you know, they're trying to sort of society's getting them to mask. And that's not fair on them because they sort of need to sort of like be their authentic self. They want to bring this sort of authentic, the top selves to the table. But in the corporate world, especially they're sort of like, you know, they sort of don't accept us for who, who we are. It's, you know, this is, this is the way we work. I mean, sort of, I'm trying to sort of like, you know, do it in a nice sort of like gentle way. And I want to try and sort of like, you know, um, you know, try and work with you rather than You know, basically it's, it's the us against them sort of rhetoric and the us against them, it's not sort of really neurotherming or, you know, we're trying to sort of like, you know, trying to work with, we'd like to try and work with people, it's better to sort of have the conversation open and sort of discuss this openly and sort of like, you know, bring this to the table. We need to discuss this more because, you know, it's sort of like. I mean, sort of some people are affecting and shutting us up and that's not fair and stuff like that to, you know, people and stuff like that. So I want to bring their authentic selves to the table.
Amanda:The only time I've gotten really annoyed is when the teachers are like, um, it's on her to tell us all about it, and I'm like, she's a child.
Leta:I'm not doing free labor. Pay me. I'm not doing free labor. Pay me. I'm paying you. Pay me.
Amanda:I'm doing this a bit and then it's like, you know, I'm the adult come give, have a conversation with me and don't make the 8, 9, 10 year old talk to you about it.
Michael:Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I think sort of like the more the people can be sort of like who that themselves and who they are, the better it is. And I know sort of like, you know, um, I went to a sort of like a convention yesterday where sort of like, you know, um, there was a social enterprise where sort of like, you know, a nonver, nonverbal autistic person, a normal with non, so NVLD is the condition. Formal condition that we, that she had, but, you know, basically she was like, you know, uh, bringing books to the table. She was selling her own sort of like squishies and all that type of thing. And those type of sort of like, you know, businesses need to be celebrated and stuff like that, because she's doing, she's doing like, she's putting a hundred percent of her best and stuff like that to other people. And I think with us neurodivergent people, we do appreciate that. And we do celebrate that. And it's great to sort of like, you know, connect us with, connect, um, other people with, uh, sorry, connect autistic and neurodivergent people with other people. So I think it's sort of like with my podcast, the deep dive podcast, I basically have people who want to sort of like overshare and basically talk about one subject and they can talk about it to death. So. It's sort of like, I've had some really sort of good success with it so far. Um, I've had some really good feedback and it's good to sort of like, you know, get this sort of like, you know, we like establishing ourselves a bit of a network, so to speak, where they can sort of like, you know, they can talk to us. They could sort of like, you know, they can communicate with other people, uh, and they can sort of like promote their ways to other, you know, basically neurodivergent people. So it's good in terms of like having that sort of like. They're, they're, they're people who actually have your back. And I think that's quite important.
Amanda:It is, um, I don't know if you guys have your own way of talking down there. I noticed a lot of the neurodivergent, uh, groups up here in the U. S. will say things like when you're doing a deep dive and you're really into 1 thing. That's your trains.
Michael:Well, it's not just trains and stuff like that. They have all
Amanda:not just trains. It's
Michael:yeah, if you meet one autistic person, you meet one autistic person. So they have their own sort of like interests or spins, that type of thing. And it's great to actually sort of like, you know, celebrate their spins or special interests, so to speak. And basically, you know, it's a, it's a, it's
Amanda:trains is not like trains is not legitimately just trains. It's just the guy who started it. His interest was trains.
Leta:It's a joke.
Michael:Yes, but you know, it's sort of, it's not just trains who, I mean, like, you know, you can have actually sort of like interest in trains. There's nothing wrong with that. Um, but they have their own sort of like, you know, special interests, but it varies from scopes. From scope to scope. Sorry about that. I'll just have a bit of a frog in my throat. Um, but it's sort of like, you know, I mean, they're sort of like, have their own, have their own special interests, which is quite unique, like arts and craft for instance. They can sort of like, you know, put together some like, you know, uh, like, you know, that person at the, the convention was yesterday. They did their own sort of like, you know, squishies, which has been really good. They can kind of make their own businesses out of that, which I think is really, really good as well.'cause I know sort of people, there's one person. Which I know that basically has, uh, an interest in sort of like the human body and how it operates and all that type of thing. So it's sort of like, it's interesting to sort of deep dive in that and not be judged with that. So that's what we're trying to do.
Amanda:No, we just the gap. It was, um, the reason we all call it trains and it's not just trains for anyone who's listening from overseas. It is whatever your special interest is because the guy. Whose mom was a neuroscientist who was like, Oh, everyone has their unique thing. They focus on, uh, we just all started just calling it trains for some reason. It's like, like my, uh, nephew does, uh, world championship level Rubik's cube competitions.
Michael:Uh, okay. So it's like, they do sort of like, you know, have their own sort of unique sort of passions and sort of like, you know, you know, it's, it's a passion and you shouldn't really sort of like downgrade their passion and stuff like that, because you're on your own agenda. Well,
Amanda:we just like, within the community, people will joke. So I'll be like, oh, yeah, my nephew is going up over to worlds and they're like, oh, yeah, his trains are Rubik's cubes. Aren't they?
Michael:the Rubik's cube is really popular in the eighties and stuff like that. And they're still sort of popular now. So it's sort of like, you know, it's interesting says the way they do it. I'm not really sort of into Rubik's cube as such. That's not my spin, but I'm more in sort of into radio and podcasts and stuff, but it's, you know, um, It's more sort of the fact that sort of, you know, basically you can sort of deep dive in your interests and you can, we can explore that interest and stuff like that. So that's what's really, you know, you can, you can, um, talk to those groups and they can sort of be really embracing of your interests. If that makes sense. I'm sorry if I'm not
Amanda:makes perfect sense. I just wanted to because I know when we say trains, I've talked to a few of my Canadian friends were like, what are you guys talking about? You guys seem to have some weird language in the US and it's like, yeah, we just came up with our own language. So the neurotypicals can't understand us when we're all together.
Michael:Well, it's not their own languages. We just communicate differently and that's all it is.
Amanda:Um.
Michael:And there's nothing wrong with that either.
Amanda:There's nothing wrong with it, uh, but I have noticed the more we're dealing with, uh, starting her dance studio that we've got going on, the more I'm using the terminology and people are like, I don't understand what you're saying, but then I'll go talk to someone else in the autistic community and they pick it up right away.
Michael:Yeah, so it's, you know, it's sort of, we just get it and that's the, that's the biggest, that's the biggest thing.
Amanda:Oh, yeah. Um, getting back to, uh, your podcast, cause that sounds amazing to me. Um, I am guessing you have had a lot of positive, uh, feedback from people having a safe space to just go off on their passion.
Michael:Yes. Which has been really, really good. I've been sort of like a guest on other people's podcasts as well, trying to promote the podcast and also promoting my advocacy work as well, which I think has been really, really positive, uh, especially here. Cause I know sort of like, you know, there's a lot of people, people backing us within the neurodiversity community or with the autism community. And I know sort of. There's a lot of people who embrace the neuro affirming type of way of not life, which I think is sort of, it's brilliant. Um, the way we're trying to sort of like, you know, promote a movement where people can be accepted and people will be accepted and stuff like that in, in society, which I think is really, really important. I've been calling out for this sort of like, you know, these services for like. You know, decades, and we're just starting to get the sort of the results now, which I think sort of like, it's better to sort of like get the results and bring that passion into it rather than sort of like, you know, basically sort of saying, Oh, we're just, we're just trying to ignore it. We should be embracing who we are.
Amanda:That I think is the biggest takeaway from a lot of this stuff is not only should we be embracing, but it would be helpful if some of the neurotypical community could start learning to embrace it, too.
Michael:Well, it's, I think we're trying to do that. I think we're trying to sort of. You know, basically communicate to the neurotypical community that like basically work with us. We're trying to sort of like, you know, trying to help you guys to understand us. And I think sort of like, you know, it's, it's better for me to sort of like, you know, communicate with the neurotypical community because I've done that before. But, you know, it's sort of better to sort of like, you know, we, we need to try and sort of like, you know, um, we need to try and communicate to them. This is like, we can bring a lot of positives and. You know, the positives can actually benefit the community rather than sort of like, you know, downgrade it. So it's better for me to sort of like, you know, you know, well, you know, we're not trying to sort of like, you know, make sure we deal with it. We're trying to make sure that sort of other people can understand us and we can be part of this community as long as you can, you know, basically understand this is the way we work, this is the way we operate and stuff like that. So it's better for them to understand how we work.
Amanda:It definitely is, um, because that I think she will disagree with me because she's a child and teenagers disagree with everything. Right?
Michael:Yeah, but you know, it's, it's all good though.
Amanda:a lot of the teachers who caused the most harm, they meant the most good. They really felt like they were doing something good, but they would later on go, Well, I thought autism meant she had the brain of a three year old.
Michael:That's not right. Because I mean, sort of like it's a, it's a different way of thinking. We've got sort of like advocates here, like Chloe Hayden, for example, he's done really sort of big things in the heartbreak high and she's, and the storylines are basically sort of like, you know, how she authentically feels with autism, what she feels and stuff like that. So it's good to have her within our community and stuff like that to sort of like, you know, try and have that sort of like, you know. Displayed and stuff like that so openly and I think that's really needs to be embraced.
Amanda:I think you're right. I think and the more we can educate people because the number of teachers who have also said things like, oh, well, it's just her being lazy. I'm with her severe dyslexia. And I'm like, I don't think you know how dyslexia works.
Michael:Yeah, it's, it's more case that they just don't know, you know, they don't know what they don't know. So it's better for them, it's better for us to sort of like, you know, gently sort of like, you know, bring them, you know, trying to sort of like convince them that sort of like, you know, it's, you know, it's, it's not. our way of the highway, we can sort of help you and stuff like that to understand us. I think that's really important.
Amanda:She's just 13. She had to deal with them and she's like, no, I don't believe you that they were trying to do this from a place of good. I think they're just all horrible. Um, but I'm just yeah. Um. Masking, I think it all comes back to having to mask to be in, um, society. Sometimes masking tends to, or at least the papers we've got coming out of the U S, uh, claims masking is tending to cause the breakdowns and cause, um, All the stress that autistic people have been going through.
Michael:Yeah. And it's trying to sort of like, you know, trying to make people be something who they're not, and it's sort of, it's not really sort of fair on them. I think it's, it's better to sort of like, you know, embrace who they authentically are who they really are and stuff like that. So isn't it better to sort of like, you know, just basically sort of embrace who you are and try and sort of like, you know, this is who we are. You mean you can't change us. It's better to sort of not change us. We need to sort of like, you know, educate others. This is how we sort of operate. And this is how we think. This is how we need to de stress. We can't take stress very well. And I know sort of a lot of people in our society just ashamed that sort of like, you know, stress is a big part and stuff of that, of the community. And we just have to sort of deal with it. We just can't deal with it. So we need to sort of like, you know, we need to sort of help educate people that sort of like, you know, we can't deal with these things. We need to sort of like to have accommodations to be able to sort of like, you know, to be able to sort of cope within our society. And I think it's also very important to sort of like, you know, know that. We need to sort of like, you know, be who we are to be able to sort of like, you know, Eventually, well, we're trying to sort of teach people that sort of masking is not right. And it's better to sort of like, you know, just be who we are. We don't have to sort of like, you know, do anything that sort of will eventually cause harm to the lot of us.
Amanda:She's being quiet. Cause she's usually yelling at me going, quit masking mom. It's a new century.
Michael:Yeah. That makes sense. But mind you, we sort of like, you know, as we, as you know, people have been older, we, we sort of like, you know, we've been told to mask. We've been told to sort of like, you know, hide who we are. Isn't it better to sort of like, you know, just, isn't it a refreshing sort of change that we don't have to sort of like mask anymore?
Amanda:Oh, it is. She's heard this story a few times. Um, but when I was younger, I was put into therapies to learn how to mask.
Michael:Yeah.
Amanda:one of the things that all my therapists were saying was you need to be exactly the friend that all these other kids want, um, not you be there who they want. I've run into them, you know, four decades later, and they're like, I don't know who you are, you're totally different. And I'm like, this was the person I always was. You just didn't get to meet that person.
Michael:Yeah. And it's sort of, it's not fair to sort of like, you know, just basically sort of like a shame that How to sort of like, you know, describe it. It's, it's not being who you authentically are and it's better to sort of like, you know, in inside out, there's sort of like, you know, there's sort of like the anxiety and all those types of things. Um, when we're sort of up to about teenage, the teenage years, we could sort of, it's a lot more simpler and it's a lot less stressful. Whereas sort of like, you know, in the high school years, you know, basically people are taught. How to mask and, and all that type of thing. And sort of like, it's, we can't cope with that type of thing. So it's, it's better for other people to sort of like, you know, just, you know, basically sort of like, this is who, how we act and stuff like that. There's nothing wrong with us. Although it, all it is, is basically sort of a different version of ourselves.
Amanda:I love, one of the things we've got going on at the dance studio is none of our teachers are going to ask a dancer to mask. They're all like, you will be your authentic self. And. Leta's gotten annoyed at a few parents because the parents are so worried we're going to judge their kid for being, uh, go ahead.
Leta:Like, seriously, if you're yelling in the back of the classroom, you're not the teacher, well, what do you have in class? Well, the teacher is trying to do the teaching job. Well, you're probably confusing your child's brain because you're acting like you're the teacher. Well, also confusing me with your child, probably. I'm just saying it helps no one, and it teaches your child nothing because you're acting like you're the teacher, while the teacher's trying to teach it and it does not help your child.
Amanda:Translation is we've had parents in the middle of class because we don't have a place for them to wait. They're trying to keep their kids from being their authentic self and they're like,
Michael:Yeah, that's not fair at all.
Amanda:and it's because they've been judged so much in society and they're like, wait, you're not going to judge me for my kid running around and clapping when they're excited.
Michael:Hmm. Yeah. You need to sort of like, you know, that's their way of stemming. They need to sort of like, you know, get that sort of energy out of their sort of like, you know, system. This is the way they cope. So, I mean, you can't sort of prevent people from, you know, basically sort of like having to stim and, you know, basically you need to sort of, you know, they're excited, it's autistic joy and stuff like that. So it's, you know, it's a way they express their autistic joy. So it's, you know, you can't keep them from doing that.
Amanda:But all these parents have been told by the other adults in their own lives to Keep their kids from doing that and I
Leta:a child, do they not know what a child is? It is a child, every single child in the universe does that. It is a chi i i i i i i i i i i i i i i l e, idiots.
Amanda:mean, it is kind of hard as a parent. Well, I didn't experience because I was more on the what do you want? Expect she's stemming. So get over yourselves to the adults. But I'd had, you know, decades of adults telling me what to do. And I was. A little less likely to take it from them as an adult. I
Michael:Anyway, yeah, I think sort of like, I don't know what to say, to be honest, I'm a sort of loss for words. I mean, sort of like, you know, sometimes it's sort of like, you sort of like, you know, have that sort of those periods where you sort of, you're lost for words. You don't know exactly what to say. So you sort of like, you know, that's the word finding difficulty I've got. So you sort of, you know, you sort of like, you know, you do have that lost track of thought and all that type of thing. So I do apologize for that.
Amanda:have that on a regular basis. I do not worry about it.
Michael:Oh, good.
Amanda:Um, no, it's, we have to train the parents just as much because a lot of these parents, they're new to the idea of autism. They haven't been in the community before, and they're coming from, all their friends are neurotypical and they don't, it's not that the parents are. Our friends are jerks. They just don't know what autism is. So when their kid is running around clapping, the rest of us are like, they're excited. And the parents are like, oh, no, they're making a scene.
Michael:Yeah, we're not making a scene. This is the way we communicate. So why judge us from that for that?
Amanda:Um, I know Leta has had some dance teachers because 1 of her stems is a complicated 3 point tap move that she just does because she's bored and you're talking to her and the teachers have come out to me and gone. I can't seem to correct it. And I'm like, what part of subconscious? Uh, did you not catch in that statement?
Michael:Yep. Yep. Uh, can you just stop for a minute? I'm just going to change my camera if that's all right. Sorry about that. I can't change it while recording. Okay. Uh, don't worry about it. It's all good. We can continue.
Amanda:Okay, did you want to say something, Leta? Because I saw you grab your microphone. She
Michael:Hmm.
Leta:In my defense, if you're trying to teach me a move, just do the move and not just talk about the move. It's just boring as hell. Like, seriously, it's dance class. Nah, let's just talkie talkie over and over and over and talkie talkie talkie and not do dancey dancey. It's just talkie talkie talkie talkie. Like a barky little talkie.
Amanda:kind of, she has an autoprocessory disorder, so understanding what you want her to do sometimes is difficult. She's in dance. They should be able to physically show her, and they're trying to talk her through the new moves.
Michael:it's very important. I know, um, you're probably sort of interested. There's also a dance school, which is very inclusive and stuff like that with, uh, autism and disabilities as well called TADA and stuff like that here on the Gold Coast. So sort of, we're trying to sort of like, you know, do a very similar thing and stuff like that, and we're sort of more embracing and stuff like that of people with disabilities. And I'm sort of like, you know, These sort of people can be appreciative of, you know, basically who they are. They want to basically make sure they can sort of be exactly who they are, not having to sort of like, you know, change people or, you know, change themselves to sort of please others. And that's sort of not fair. Um, there's also that support, those support workers there, they'll be able to sort of help them to sort of like, you know, Perform at their best. So it's sort of like, you know, great. It's great. That's sort of like, you know, I know sort of like, you know, you are doing like an inclusive dance school over in the States, but, um, I know this sort of inclusive dance schools here in Australia and stuff like that. And I know my daughter's involved with one of them. So congratulations on, um, like, you know, basically sort of establishing those things over and over in the U. S. A.
Amanda:I'm excited to hear they're all over the world, because I know the other inclusive ones around here, they're not evil. Um, a lot of it, It's done by people who don't understand. Um, they don't know what they don't know and there's the rules. Like, you have to be verbal in order to go into dance class. You have to be potty trained, which with autistic kids, that could be a while.
Michael:Exactly. And they're sort of like, they've got that slow developmental type of thing. So you can't force them to sort of do things faster just because of the neurotypical community expects it. You just can't force it.
Amanda:Oh, no. And then on top of it, like, Leta's got a talent in tap dance, so she doesn't qualify for the autistic programs because she's not, you have to be. We've also had a bunch of our families have come up to us and gotten, and this is the other reason, Leta, they get concerned. They've been kicked out of autistic, uh, activities here around town because their kids have been too autistic.
Michael:And that's also the, the, the two E sort of like, have you heard of the, um, the, um, phrase twice exceptional.
Amanda:Yeah, I have a lot of friends who do papers on Twice Exceptional.
Michael:Cause I think sort of like the twice exceptional, I think people can be really, really exceptional in one ability and stuff like that for, you know, leader, for example, she's good at tape dancing and stuff like that. So it's better to sort of embrace that and stuff like that and be accepting of that. So I know people can do fantastic things if their strength can be sort of like embraced and encouraged rather than sort of like, you know, brought back.
Amanda:Well, I will, one of our, uh, dancers who likes to turn around in circles when she's excited. It's almost a perfect pirouette when she gets excited.
Michael:Hmm.
Leta:adorable.
Michael:Very good. I mean, sort of like, you know, the twice exceptional that's the twice exceptional type of means. I mean, people can be really good. I mean, sort of like some people can be really good at their job and stuff like that, but it's only sort of that one thing and they sort of have deficits and the other thing to basically sort of, you know, because they sort of like, you know, they do. How does it describe, they basically sort of put it, all their energy and stuff like that into the one thing that they're really passionate about and really sort of excited about, but then sort of like, you know, at the end of the day, they're very, very tired and they need to sort of like, you know, they're sort of brain needs to, you know, basically needs to rest in order to sort of recoup for the next day.
Amanda:Sounds so familiar. Like, uh, me, maybe. Uh,
Michael:Yeah.
Amanda:no, I, but, no, this one girl, she got kicked out of another dance studio because they're like, well, when she gets excited she turns, and I'm like, okay, well, You know, I'm sorry, she's pirouetting for you at five, but y'all can,
Leta:It's a child? Like, even an atypical child would like, probably turn for no reason? It is a child! It is a little child! Do these people not know what children are? Do
Michael:Yes, I know.
Leta:were a child once?
Michael:And the fact is it's sort of like, you know, sometimes it's part of their childhood or something like that. It's part of who, you know, basically they were a child and stuff like that. So sometimes they just, I mean, some people just expect. Yeah, they have to sort of change who they are for them. And that's not right as well, because it's better to sort of like, you know, bright embrace people for who they are. I know I'm sort of, I know I'm repeating myself and stuff like that. And I do repeat myself when I'm a little bit stressed and a little bit nervous. And I don't know what to exactly say, but it's the same message right through.
Amanda:yeah, no, I know I really do think Leta's convinced that it's all for money, that they've realized that the autism community needs activities and they're just. Trying to make money off of them.
Michael:Yeah. And they sort of don't realize that sort of like, you know, it's sort of like, you know, they're just in it for. You know, the wrong reasons and that's not right. We need to sort of like, you know, the lived experience advocates, they sort of know what exactly they want and they want to basically sort of help you to sort of understand it and work with you. So isn't it better to sort of like, you know, let them sort of like, you know, be on those boards and stuff like that, contribute and stuff like that, because they can contribute so much to society in general.
Amanda:And I do think a lot of these dance studios, they do have a heart, but they're seeing autism as broken. Um, they're seeing it as, because I've had so many of her teachers who have gone, Oh, she's broken. And we're just wanting to make sure she feels loved, even though she's broken. And I'm like, um, I appreciate what you're saying.
Michael:But it's better to sort of like, you know, fully embrace it and fully, you know, basically sort of like, you know, be who you are. Don't have to change for people. You just have to sort of like, you know, just be like people sort of saying just be yourself, but you know, people are trying to sort of like change you to be their version of yourself. That isn't right.
Amanda:We, I was reading an article, uh, this week in one of our dance magazines, where they were talking about how inclusive dances. Um, I'm not sure if I said that sarcastic enough, but it was sarcastic. Um, and 1 of the autistic dancers they interviewed was like, well. When I was little, I needed them to explain why this step had to be done this way, what all the mechanics were about. And she's like, once I realized that I was not supposed to ask questions, even though the teacher said to ask any questions I had, life was better. And I was better at the school. And I'm like, that's not inclusive.
Michael:Yeah. It's sort of like, you know, they're sort of version of inclusive may need to be checked,
Amanda:Yeah, and the article was just like, look at how inclusive these studios are. Now we're training autistic dancers to, you know, function in our typical classes. And I'm like,
Michael:but it's, it's sort of like their vision of, you know, being inclusive versus our version of being included, truly inclusive,
Amanda:definitely,
Michael:it's definitely different. And we need to sort of like, you know, show them, you know, basically the benefits of being truly inclusive,
Amanda:I know Leta had a dance teacher who was like, we are really inclusive. I let her sit on the side of the dance class while we're doing dance.
Michael:but that's sort of, isn't that an exclusion?
Amanda:She, to this day, will swear up and down and she truly believed she was being inclusive.
Michael:That sort of really sort of like, that really gets my gut sometimes because they sort of like, you know, say like, this has been inclusive, but it's not been inclusive. You're, you're trying to exclude them and stuff like that to be, you know, yeah, it just baffles me.
Amanda:Oh, yeah. And they have, you want to say something real quick?
Leta:the same person who locked me in the office a few
Amanda:No. It was a different one.
Michael:Oh, okay. Interestingly, sort of like, you know, hopefully this still isn't occurring because, you know, it's, it's, it's cruelty. If they sort of lock people, you know, basically just to be on their own, it's cruelty.
Amanda:That's still being allowed here in the U. S., uh, thanks to ABA and all that. Because that's
Michael:Yeah. So that's why we're trying to sort of like, you know, promote the newer, newer inclusive, a newer affirming sort of way of things. And I think it's sort of, it's more sort of accepting and it's sort of like brings their strengths to the table, which I think sort of like, which we actually sort of need in the entire world, rather than sort of like, you know, trying to basically sort of say it's my way, the highway, and they're trying to sort of like, you know, basically shut us out and that's not fair.
Amanda:Yeah, no, I, we've had a couple people who are like, but you aren't inclusive at your studio. And I'm like, yeah, I know we're not inclusive. I know we only do autism, but that's because there has to be a safe space for all these dancers.
Michael:And it's also, it's sort of like, you know, they're trying to sort of like, you know, it's, it's basically a safe space where they're basically sort of like, they can be who they are, they don't have to mask, they can basically sort of bring their authentic self to the table. And that's what sort of like, you know, our sort of like, you know, we've got a few sort of groups around here, which are truly neuroinclusive. Um, and I sort of use the word neuroinclusive because they're basically sort of like, you know, we just don't. It just accepts autism, we accept ADHD and all the neuro sort of divergent sort of like, you know, uh, aspects and stuff like that. They can bring them all to the table and stuff like that. We could just help them to sort of like, you know, bring their sort of like, you know, help them through their, their, um, Well, basically help them and stuff like that to a degree, because if they sort of have issues and stuff like that, I mean, no, most of the time it's from the neurotypical world, but it's also, it's a safe space for them to be who they are and they don't have to sort of like, you know, they, we sort of like, you know, we could see what, you know, basically sort of what issues they're experiencing and stuff like that. So we'd want to sort of make sure it's a safe space for them to sort of, you know, basically express that and not be judged. Okay. Yeah,
Amanda:accept like ADHD and all those and students what I'm not going to accept because I am not going to be inclusive, but it's because of that safe space. If you. Our neurotypical and you can work at the neurotypical studios. They're just down the street. We have 46 of them here in town.
Michael:but it's, it's best to sort of like, you know, have that sort of safe space for them to sort of like, you know, be exactly who they are. And it's sort of, it's critical for that. So it's better to sort of have those sort of like, you know, those sort of like, you know, safe spaces for them to truly Damask, uh, truly sort of like, you know, yeah, it's a basically sort of like, you know, it's their area and stuff like that. They can truly be themselves and that's critical.
Amanda:And for our kids, um, the number of their therapist who've called us up going, what are you guys doing over there? And I'm like, why? And they're like, cause these kids are thriving now. And I'm like,
Michael:And thriving is the biggest thing because basically if they've truly, they can truly be who they are, they can sort of like really sort of thrive and they sort of, it's a, it's a big relief to them because like, you know, a lot of people like, you know, if there's sort of like, you know, had that sort of like, you know, ABA therapy, it's sort of, it's a relief to them to basically sort of like, you know, you It's sort of like, it's a weight off your shoulders. It's better for, you know, they can sort of like truly thrive. They can truly be who they are. And it's sort of like, it's. It feels like it's a big relief, like you're being listened to.
Amanda:and the moment you have that, you can actually thrive as a human being.
Michael:Yes, exactly. And I think that needs to be embraced.
Amanda:Oh, yeah. I know I told you we were only going to go an hour. We're pushing an hour right now. Um, we would love to have you back on the podcast at some point in time, Michael, because this conversation has been amazing.
Michael:I know. I hope I haven't been sort of like, you know, uh, I haven't, haven't sort of like, you know, it's sort of like more an info dump for me. So, um, yeah, definitely. Um, I would love to be back.
Amanda:Yeah, no, and hopefully we did not, uh, stress you out too much and didn't scare you off.
Michael:It's all good. It's all good. I've been on podcasts longer than an hour, so it's all good. So, yeah, so I'm happy to sort of like, you know, basically sort of talk about it for a, like a big period of time. So it's sort of one of my passions of mine.
Amanda:Understandable. Uh, I probably need to feed her because it's pushing up dinner time over here.
Michael:All right. Well, I'll let you guys go on and I'm looking forward to be back on the podcast at some stage.
Amanda:before you go, can you tell people where to find you on the internet?
Michael:Okay, so it's, uh, www.deepdiveau.net is my, uh, the, the address for the podcast, uh, the Neuro Access Network. Um, and there's some, there's a offer and stuff like that for, for people who can join the Neuro Access Network at the moment. Uh, www.neuroaccess.com au. Forward slash the network. Uh, and there's sort of like, you know, some great meetups and also some good sort of like, you know, um, uh, there's also, there's some meetups, there's also sort of like, you know, a message board, there's some resources and stuff like that there. So, yeah, so that's probably the two biggest ones that, uh, I like people to go to, so, and, um, basically embrace our, uh, your autism and neurodivergence.
Amanda:We will make sure that those links are in the description below. And, uh, as always, we've got a list of our, uh, long amount of guests, uh, now on the website. And so you can always go to our website to find all of Michael's information. Thank you so much for coming on.
Michael:Appreciate that. Thank you so much.
Amanda:All right. You want to say bye Leta? She's waving bye.
Leta:Hey well, thank you for watching the podcast and please subscribe and also look at that adorable pittie. Don't you want to subscribe for it and also please leave a like and don't forget if you subscribe to our stuff you won't miss any of our new podcast stuffies and also you can see that adorable pittie. Don't you like it?
