Leta's Tap Styles

Kerie Logan on Parenting and the Power of Authenticity

• Leta and Amanda • Season 2

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In this episode, host Leta and her mom welcome guest Kerie Logan, a therapist, empowerment specialist, podcast host, and parent of an autistic child with PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance). They delve into topics such as autism, masking, the importance of parental understanding, and how technical difficulties impacted their recording session. Carrie shares personal experiences and professional advice on diagnosing autism, managing masking behaviors, and the significance of creating supportive environments for neurodivergent individuals. The conversation also critiques traditional approaches like ABA therapy and emphasizes the value of being authentic.

 

Check out Kerie’s Website to listen to her podcast, follow her socials, and connect with Kerie https://mastertheupperrooms.com/

Kerie and Leta’s Tap Styles connected through PodMatch. PodMatch is like a dating site for podcasters and guest. Using the same algorithms as your favorite dating site, PodMatch connects podcasters and guests alike. Use Leta’s Tap Styles’ link to join today. (We receive a small amount of money for anyone who signs up using our link.) https://www.joinpodmatch.com/letastapstyles

Want to help support Leta's dream of a dance studio for autistic dancers? Donate today by visiting the website https://www.autisticwingsdancecompany.org


Leta:

Hello, this is Leta, and this is me and my mommy's podcast. And there's my mommy, and there's me, and I'm just talking about this stuff. And there's me tap dancing, because this is a tap dancing slash autism podcast. And there's a bunch of animals, and a wallby trying to eat my hair. And there's a bunch of sand and ocean. Also, there's all the SoleTalk stuff. I love all my mentors and friends. All that going on, so old. Yeah, it's like life's coming to an end. Oh, and also, there's my boots. My boots are amazing. Also, there's me, trying not to have a panic attack. Also, this is a podcast about me. my autism, tap dancing, and blah, blah, blah. I'm just ADHD and this is it. Also, there's my cute, adorable puppies.

Amanda:

Um, thank you so much for being so understanding with all the issues with the bad links and everything carry. I really appreciate it. I'm going to warn. Our audience that I messed up my Calendly link sent the wrong thing. We record on Riverside. For some reason, it sent zoom and then it was a mess trying to get carry on. So I really appreciate every bit of patience. You have granted us today. Carrie.

Kerie:

Oh, you're welcome. I completely understand technical difficulties.

Amanda:

Thanks so much for coming on the program. Do you mind? I absolutely. Fell miserably when I introduce our guests, could you introduce yourself to our audience? Like, you're introducing yourself to someone you met at a coffee shop.

Kerie:

Sure. So my name is Carrie Logan and I am a therapist, a empowerment specialist. I'm a podcaster, blogger, author. And hypnotherapist and I've been voted the best hypnotherapist for the past 14 consecutive years for Salem, Oregon. So I really love what I do and because of this podcast, I have a child that has autism and my kiddo has PDA as well and that's called pathological demand avoidance and not many people know about that because it's not in the DSM 5. So, um, we could unpack many subjects about, you know, autism and what it was like for me and maybe some of your listeners can, you know, relate or be like, Oh, that explains that. So that's why

Amanda:

I'm sure a lot of them can. Um, could you discuss just a little bit about what it was like getting that diagnosis? And, you know, not a lot of our listeners know the difficulty, but a lot of our listeners are coming from the neurotypical world and they're getting the diagnosis. Hey, your child is different. What was it like for you getting the diagnosis that your son had autism?

Kerie:

Oh, it was a huge relief because I knew something was up. I didn't know what was up. But I knew something was up and something was different and it was very frustrating because the, my partner, the other side of his family, um, hated it, were so irritated with me and they would keep saying, why can't you just let him be normal? Why can't you just let him be normal? And I'm like, no, this is not typical. Something is going on and I would rather find out now in his early developmental stages. You know just better support him and understand if there is something going on What can I do to help this child because it's not about me. It's about him

Amanda:

I'm smiling only because I heard that a lot from people who in our families knew I was autistic and they're like, well, why can't you just let lead a be normal? Um, I think Leta still gets that from members of the family. Don't you lead a. That you could just be normal.

Leta:

And I don't like the family members. What is your point? People say blood is thicker than water. I do not care. Noticals shouldn't say that. What

Amanda:

She kind of gets annoyed when the family members are still telling her you don't need to have autism.

Kerie:

Yeah, like they think it's just gonna go away and sometimes I think it could be that kiddos special power You know because they have so many wonderful gifts to me to me, you know autism there's there's There's nothing negative about it. It's just learning how to Um, better support one another and how to communicate.

Amanda:

It definitely, um, the communication thing. It's the hard part for some people because they don't understand you have to, I think, in a lot of ways, be a better communicator when you're dealing with someone who's neurodivergent than when you're dealing with someone who's neurotypical. You mentioned the PDA diagnosis and like you said, not a lot of people would know what that is. Do you mind telling our audience a bit about it?

Kerie:

So PDA is pathological demand avoidance and I kind of have a, a theory, a hypothesis and I, I've mentioned it to a few other therapists, friends of mine and actually people that are trauma informed and PDA does develop out of trauma. So what happens is. When a child is born, they usually have a secure attachment, hopefully, with that parent. Well, when the parent doesn't understand the child is neurotypical, they're going to try to parent the way that they were parented. And what happens with this child is there will be a lack of communication because there is The child can't really communicate sometimes when they have autism in the very beginning, you know, they're they they can't so their only form of communication is behaviors and reactions, and some people might take those behaviors and reactions. As the child being defiant, but the child isn't being defiant, the child is trying to communicate with you. And so the child's attachment style goes from secure to anxious to, um, disorganized. And disorganized is where you don't trust your caregiver. You don't trust authority figures. You have to be, you have to get angry to get your needs met because you feel like you're not being heard. And so this PDA creates kids where they, um, do not trust or respect authority figures. They do a lot of masking. And many people do not know what masking is, so they can mask at school, they can, um, they can really, they can mask around a dysfunctional parent, pretending that, especially the one that caused the PDA, the one that, you know, they're afraid of. So let's say you have a narcissistic or toxic parent, that, that child will be on their very best behavior with that parent, but then when they go home to the safe parent. They'll fall apart, they'll completely fall apart and the legal systems and a lot of judges and attorneys do not know about that fact, about, you know, masking, they, um, they sometimes will say things that they. Don't understand, like for example, my kiddo for a while kept saying Obama, Obama, Obama, and he would be like, why am I saying that? And it just came, came out, or he would mimic a certain person or, or certain voices. So what I suggest to a lot of people is research, if you can, exactly. You know, what are the traits and behaviors of PDA if you have a kid that has autism? Because it can answer a lot of questions and and even my son's therapist when he Didn't know what it was until a client of his started talking about the traits and behaviors and he was like bingo That's what that's the missing link with your kiddo. You know, this is what he you know Why we couldn't figure out He couldn't do this or, you know, was acting this way. It just made perfect sense.

Amanda:

Circling back a little bit to masking, because that's a topic we talk about. A lot. She's yawning because she's like, I'm not wanting to say what I want to say when I was younger. It was the suggestion was that I went to therapy to learn to mask we are starting to get away from that. Thank God. Um, can you discuss a bit about, uh, from a parent's point of view, did masking and your son's masking interfere with how you could. Interact with him and relate to him when he was masking and not being his true self.

Kerie:

Yes, because when he would mask, he's learned that he was really stuffing down his emotions and hiding how he feels, how he honestly, truly feels. And there have been times where he has actually apologized to me and my son's now 17, he's apologized and said. You know, I was masking, pretending that everything was okay and I was miserable inside. And let's be honest, how many people, we see these commercials for antidepressants, how many people are pretending that everything is fine and it's not fine. So he, he's learned now to, I want him to be his authentic self, whether I, and, and To express his emotions and not have to hide if he is angry or if he's disappointed or he feels like he's gonna, you know, explode. I want him to be able to self regulate his emotions and recognize them and find healthy coping skills. So that's been the real important thing is, is letting him know that I'm still that stuff safe space and you can trust me. Whether, you know, I agree with what you have to say or like what you have to say, I'm still here to support you because I love you unconditionally because this is not about me. This is about your well being.

Amanda:

I know a lot of our listeners. They are, like I said, coming from the neurotypical world. Um, I'm trying to figure out how to say this. Sometimes my brain wants to say it some way and I'm not sure it will be understood that way.

Kerie:

Yeah.

Amanda:

With the masking, did you see it interfere with any of his other relationships?

Kerie:

Hell yeah. And especially in school, especially in school, um, because his masking, his masking behaviors confused a lot of people. It confused a lot of teachers. It, it, It, it confused just a lot of people because they didn't know what it was or they didn't know. It's kind of like you appear one way, but in reality there's a whole different script. And so it's kind of like you're acting, pretending that everything is, is fine and you're not. And then when you fall apart, people, you know, they think, you know, what's wrong with you, what's wrong with you. But think about it as a soda can. When you mask. And you're stuffing down all those feelings. It's like you're shaking the can, shaking the can, shaking the can, but you haven't cracked the lid open yet. And when something happens and makes that kid snap and crack the lid open, then it's like all hell broke loose. I'm sure you know what I mean?

Amanda:

Yeah, I just, I am so excited. I keep telling ALeta, I'm excited that this generation gets to live with parents and with teachers and with therapists who are saying less and less, you need to mask and more and more. Let's be authentic.

Kerie:

Yeah.

Amanda:

Um, I know the, she's like, why did you put teachers in that statement? You want to say something? Don't you

Leta:

There's nothing like that. Noticals shouldn't say, shouldn't say. They literally quit a job at the, at the, quit a job by second thought to it. And you have to go off to Gen Alpha like, Oh, IPAC is

Amanda:

calm down?

Leta:

no, no, That's Gen Z, Gen Z is the IPAC is, At least we have brains.

Amanda:

so Gen Z's got a problem coming up behind them. It's called Jen alpha.

Kerie:

Yeah.

Amanda:

Um, she's had

Leta:

have brains! They do not! And

Amanda:

down.

Leta:

They keep putting people on there like, Gen Alpha is the IPAC is, Oh no, it's like Gen Z's the idiots. That

Amanda:

dance teachers have been older. Gen Z years who are like, you need to live your authentic self. And then when she starts unmasking, they're like, but not that authentic self.

Kerie:

Yeah. And, and that's where I look at it is. Well, that's a you problem, not a her problem because she, you told her to be her authentic self and you need to learn to adapt and cope with those, those behaviors and you need to know how to, let's say redirect her or get her, you know, to calm down or, or, or something. It's learning healthier communication skills. Is really what and and learning patience and tolerance because That's the other thing. Not many people know about the window of tolerance and everyone has a window of tolerance. So when someone has PDA, their window of tolerance is very paper thin. Like for you and me, it's probably like maybe like two or three inches. Imagine that. Theirs is like half an inch. And there's two things that's going to happen. They will either go into hyper arousal. Or hypo arousal. So hyper arousal is where they get very reactive. They can get angry, fight, flight, you know, they, they're very reactive, but the hypo arousal is really more dangerous. That's what my kiddo has. It's where his nervous system perceives a threat and it literally shuts. He can't talk. He can't move. He can't think straight. It's like his nervous system thinks or anticipates he's going to be attacked by a bear, but there is no bear and that's formed out of trauma. And so when we learn about. You know, which one is your kid's reaction to the window of tolerance? You have to think about it as a bell curve. When they start to react, that's your time to do the redirecting, the calming tools to, you know, try to support your kid better. But when it gets up to the top of the bell curve, now you got to ride it. You know, you got to write it out and you got to let them have their tantrum or whatever they're going to do. And then when it starts to deescalate, you have to stay calm. You have to stay patient and you got to give this kid grace because the kid went literally into their lizard brain, the survival brain, and just fell apart. And that happens to every single human being, not neuro neurotypical at all. This happens to everybody. And so learning about, you know, healthier coping skills is essential for anybody's well being.

Amanda:

Well, most of these dance teachers, they don't have an education. Their education is just having gone to dance classes themselves.

Leta:

all mostly Gen Z right now, And Gen Z. Like, seriously, why do I keep running into people and I'm like, You know what's the problem, shit, it's people! And it's like, no, shit, it's you, idiots.

Amanda:

Most of the teachers have done things like asking her to look them in the eye, which when you're autistic, looking someone in the eye is, you're shaking your head. And it's like, this is not a requirement. You, you could just skip this teacher or, uh, her voice will get higher pitched and with girls. That's a problem. And there you're like, well, you're just being a baby and it's like. I could save you, but I am tired of dealing with it. So I'll just let the 13 year old be a teenager to you right now.

Kerie:

Well, and telling someone that they're being a baby, that's shaming.

Amanda:

Yeah, and that's what these, they're doing is they're shaming and going, you have to act the way I want you to act. You can't have that high pitched voice. You can't stem leaders. Got a problem with noise. I mean, noise sensory runs with autism.

Kerie:

it does.

Amanda:

So when it gets really loud in studio spaces, she tends to put on her headphones and they're like, well, she's being disrespectful. And I'm like, oh, she's not in class. Why does she need to be listening to all the parents yelling, trying to talk over the kids?

Kerie:

And actually, you can flip it and say she's bearing, being extremely respectful because she knows what's going to happen if she doesn't put on the headphones. So she's actually doing you a favor by putting the headphones on.

Amanda:

Yeah,

Kerie:

how I would have responded.

Amanda:

we responded by building our own dance studio for autistic kids. So she's like, I don't know how we got here. Uh, mainly cause mom got upset too. And when mom and kiddo get upset at the same time, weird things happen

Kerie:

Yeah. Well, and a lot like if I was in a situation where I was 1 of those. Dance teachers, instead of saying, look me in the eyes, I literally would have sat down next to her, you know, took her hand and had a real gentle conversation. Like, what do I, what do you need from me? How can I support you? What's going on? You know, are you being, is it too overstimulating for you? What is it? And trying to, you know, have dialogue instead of immediately going into shame or you have to do what I say. And that's the hard thing I got to say, and I cannot preach this enough. I wish more high schools and even college would teach people about mental health, autism, neurodiversity as, as well as trauma, you know, to educate people about this, because then we know how to better support. Each other as a whole instead of, you know, separation and thinking that person's just crazy and you just, it's wrong. You're just immediately judging and labeling a person before you know what their life history is about.

Amanda:

and I was the bad parent going, well, they all claimed I was a problem parent. And I'm like, no, I'm asking questions. Cause I was like, is she disrupting the class by not looking at you? They're like, no, I'm like, is she doing exactly what you just asked her to do? Yes. Why does she need to look at you? Well, because she has to look at me. I'm not under.

Kerie:

Someone with Asperger's couldn't do that.

Amanda:

It took me decades of therapy to learn how to look someone in the eye and that was therapist back in the old days going. We will look each other in the eyes while you're talking to me or you're not leaving therapy today.

Kerie:

Even regular adults have a hard time looking someone in the eye. We do.

Amanda:

Yeah, and that's when they're like, well, no, you have to look us in the eye. Your voice has to be the pitch. I want your voice to be, which is just asking a child to mask and mask everything about them. And then they're when she would mass, they're like, oh, yeah, she's my friend now. And I'm like. No, no, she's not,

Leta:

I was supposed to be their friend, they're not plotting, Okay, how do I completely and totally destroy this studio, And probably also completely and totally destroy their soul, So their soul will die and go to heaven, alright!

Amanda:

which is not what you're supposed to be doing as a child is plotting revenge. Um,

Kerie:

And I think that's another thing that is part of PDA is they can get really, um, negative intrusive thoughts and, and that's very unfortunate that they have that.

Leta:

What do you mean by revenge? It's not

Kerie:

by intrusive thoughts? Intrusive thoughts could be a thought that pops in your head immediately and it's like, I want to kill that person. That person is to just die. That person's horrible. And you're conflicting. You're going, why am I thinking that thought? Um, you know, it's kind of like it just pops up in your head and, and you're, and it can cause confusion. Why do I have this intrusive thought? Why do I always have this angry voice in my head?

Amanda:

But my brain just went it has been one of those days where the ADHD is taking over the brain

Kerie:

It's okay. And that actually can be a trauma trigger. Having those intrusive negative thoughts can be correlated to trauma. So she experienced a traumatic experience with the teachers and stuff. That could be why her brain immediately wants to go to, I want to just eliminate them. I can't stand these people. They, they are not letting me be my authentic self. They're not listening to me. So her brain immediately goes into. You know, wanting to hurt those people and, and, and that's, you know, normal. And I tell people, everybody has intrusive thoughts. What matters is if you act on them or you don't. And it's good not to act on them.

Amanda:

But um, where did my brain go? I did want to that there's a reason I edit these things

Kerie:

Yeah.

Amanda:

Um, as someone who also works with the adults and not just with the kids, is there anything you could tell like, these young kids that are barely out of college and they keep telling me they're adults, but I'm like, if you're not really old enough to drink or I at this age, get to think you're a kid, right? If they're not, like I said, they're not trained. They haven't gone to college. Even if they did go to college for dance, they don't take any educational courses, though. They've been told by everyone, their educators, which I think gives them a little inflated sense of self because they're like, oh, I'm a teacher. I'm an educator. I know how to work with kids. What would your advice be to them on dealing with kids who have autism? Or any type of neurodiversity and

Kerie:

I would say really educate yourself about, about the subject, educate yourself about the window of tolerance, educate yourself about trauma. And even attachment styles, um, you can, you can learn a great deal about that. And then most importantly, learn what they call like emotional intelligence, you know, healthy communication skills, because the way you communicate has to, it is different than how you would communicate with a neurotypical person. And it's just giving, having more patience. More grace, more, more space in the whole thing and not trying to rush to, let's find a solution now, but really have it come where it's natural. Because as you know, their, their brain is different and the way they process is different. And sometimes they have to process a little bit slower. And it's understanding that and giving them grace and, and holding that space for silence because silence a lot of times allows them to process and think. You're not pushing them. Well, what is it? What is it? What is it? You get, I hope you get where I'm coming from.

Amanda:

I do, I can't tell you the number of times both of us have needed silence. She's showing off her puppy. He decided to come down to the podcasting booth. They are attached at the hip I wanted to also ask because. One of the big national dance magazines that all the dance teachers and all the studio owners read just published an article this week about parents being the problem when it comes to dealing with kids. Um, when you're dealing with a neuro divergent kid, should the studio, if you're an adult dealing with them, should you maybe ask their parents a little bit more about the child?

Kerie:

I would say yes. And, and. And really, this might be hard for some people to hear, but really ask, what is your intentions and motives behind getting your kid in this dance class? Like what do you, what do you want to get out of it? You know, what, what do you want your child to experience and, and tell me about your kid, you know, really wanting to understand, like, cause for me. With my kiddo. I tell people he struggles with personal space. He struggles with oversharing. You know, these are his his struggles when he, you know, gets overstimulated. This is what he's going to do. So then it's kind of preparing them for what might happen when I'm not there. And that's why it's important. So, and I can understand why the magazine says, A lot of it is with the parents because there are some parents out there that want their child to be a celebrity. They want their child to be a star that want their child to, you know, win all these competitions or whatever. And that child isn't being allowed to be a child,

Amanda:

Oh, I totally understood where the magazine was coming from, but. I know with Leta, I've tried to explain she has severe dyslexia and I had dance teachers that would work for her with her for a year and a half trying to teach her how to pirouette the way they wanted her to. Her eyes don't track that way. By time we were pulling her out of studio, they were like, well, I Googled dyslexia and decided if she just tried harder. And I'm like, sometimes the parents may be better than Google at what this specific diagnosis means

Kerie:

right? And you got to accept it is, um, maybe she can't do it perfect the way that you want it to be. And that's still okay.

Amanda:

they get really annoyed because she can do a pirouette. It's not the way they want it to, but she can make it look like everyone off stage doesn't realize. She's not tracking the way they want her to because. She's given herself accommodations to make it work

Kerie:

So then I say, who cares? She can do it. It's just not, you know,

Amanda:

because as much as they all say, they're neurotypical. I'm like, y'all seem to think these rules have to be followed a certain way. That seems a little neurodivergent to me. People.

Kerie:

yes. And I'm just going to say it rather anal retentive, you know,

Amanda:

Yeah, because they're like, no, she has to do it this way. I'm like, when she does it that way, she gets dizzy and has a headache and they're like, we don't care. And I'm like, okay,

Kerie:

well, let me tell you this. This is, that is why ABA did not work. I mean, there was a moment I had to throw them out of my house because they're all about forcing a child to do something they don't want to do. And, and one time I told them, if you did that to me when I was a kid, I'd be way worse, way worse than my son. I would have thrown stuff at you. I would have swore at you. I would have probably hit you because you're trying to force me to do something that I flat out said no. And so what part of no do you not understand? And it irritates me that ABA would play those games with children and that can cause and create PDA because you're forcing them against their will to do something that they flat out said, no, I don't want to do this.

Amanda:

She was an ABA for a grand total of five weeks before I called up her developmental pediatrician and went, Frank, one of two things is going to happen. You're going to get her out of this or mommy's trauma response is about to take over

Kerie:

Yeah.

Amanda:

and you're bailing me out of jail. And he, when I explained to him, he had never actually sat down and understood what ABA was doing. And he's like, well, now that it's coming from used apparent, I trust. No, she's out now, and all my other patients are out.

Kerie:

Yeah.

Amanda:

And I'm like, how did the MD not look into what this was all about?

Kerie:

Well, but I mean, it's just sad. I mean, the whole thing about that program is just sad and I don't. I don't believe in it. I mean, I know my son did the early intervention program and that was great where they had the little Laminated images with velcro where we're going to move to this net next task and it was great But they went kind of at the kids pace and they told him this is what we're gonna do. They showed him the structure And, and they made it fun. They didn't make it where it was, you know, like you're being punished.

Amanda:

ALeta, ABA therapist, in the 5 weeks she was there, she got, she's not picking up the microphone because she knows she'll go off on this. She was tied to a chair in ABA to make her sit at the table and she was 3 years old.

Kerie:

Wow.

Amanda:

She was quickly out of after I found out because they wouldn't let me back in the ABA because they were like, no parent. You're not allowed to come back here.

Kerie:

And to me, that's child abuse. That is a form of child abuse. I mean, I would have literally taken my kid down to the police station and reported them for child abuse. You're

Amanda:

I told both her pediatric general practitioner and a developmental and her neurology team. And I'm like, I'm not going to be able to go to the police station because I'm going to get upset

Kerie:

not allowed to restrain a child unless you are professionally trained. And there's a certain amount of seconds you can, even a school can only restrain a child for so long. There's a certain time and then you have to let them go. You cannot do that. So if anyone's listening,

Amanda:

It's not right. She had a speech therapist that was also forcing her until I. Got a little mad and made sure the speech therapist lost her license to eat a pizza because Leta has a texture issue with pizza. Like, you know, most autistic kids have texture issues with food. Hers happens to be junk food. And I was like, why are we trying to fix the junk food

Kerie:

Yeah.

Amanda:

and her speech therapist was like, but if we don't Forced her to eat it until she throws up.

Leta:

Like, they were like, like, my peers were praising me because I, I, I don't know if they didn't realize this but most children's parents don't want to be the child's parents. Like, I don't know if they realize this, but yes, this is America, but you can still be healthy in America and I got praised by my peers. So, uh, yeah. F them.

Amanda:

I mean, their kids won't necessarily tease you just because you don't like pizza. find something else to teach you on, probably.

Kerie:

Well, when I was a kid, my parents would, whenever they did the vacation, my dad would drive her around. And he would make us eat bologna sandwiches and I hate bologna. And there was one day where I told him if I eat this sandwich, I'm going to throw up. And of course they didn't believe me. But when I threw up, that was the last time I was ever given bologna again.

Amanda:

This speech therapist made Leta keep doing it until I figured it out and Then she brought me in to do I'm smarter than you and I'm, like, we can academia this because I have a P. H. D. and you have a doctorate of speech and we all know how this works in academia. Me bigger. The academia is very. We have our places and then she was telling me her. Son was, uh, getting his physics degree and she's like, why is he taking calculus and senior year? And I'm like, it's advanced calculus. That's a senior, which made me go. I don't really trust you if you don't know where your calculus is go, but, you know, I'm a math and physics major. So

Kerie:

Now people with autism are great with numbers. Like my kiddo, when he was like, like five years old, he, you tell him the, Um, what is it the year you, you know, how old you are and he would figure out right away, Oh, you were born this year. Yeah. And, and, and he even like, what, I think he was in first grade. I had a parent teacher conference and I was thanking them for teaching him the states and the capitals throughout the U S and they looked at me and they said, Oh no, he taught it himself. He literally looked at the, at the map every day and taught himself that. So that's why I'm saying some autistic traits are a superpower. They're great with music. They're great with numbers. You know, there's, you know, with dance, there's things that they can do that other people can't do. They're like, it's amazing.

Amanda:

Lead us pretty much self taught and tap dancing, because a lot of our tap teachers would tell her because of her autism, she needed to go sit in the corner so that they could work with the kids who weren't autistic, which now she likes corners because those are her safe spots and rooms now. But they also then, because she was so good, they wanted her on stage. She was like, 7 on stage with middle schoolers. She was like, 8 and on stage with the high schoolers, but they didn't want her interfering in class, which it's a whole you're like, I'm not completely. Sure. I understand where you guys are coming from.

Kerie:

Well, it kind of sounds like, um, Oh, let's show everyone what she can do. Um, you know, to, you know, look good, like, oh, we taught her this, but in reality, yeah, it's kind of wacko.

Amanda:

It is, and there were, but she's like, I like corners. I do understand coming back to the dance. I do understand. There are a lot of parents out there who do want that star who. Do you want to push their kids? Well, pass what they want. I do think though that what the doctor Google is not the best place to go look up anything Google will give you probably some really bad results. If you go look up what, like, autism is, um, do you have any advice as a perf? Professional therapist on places that these teachers could learn about autism or, uh, PDA or other types of neurodivergency.

Kerie:

Well, I would say to start is there's podcasts out there, you know, there, there really is. And listen to, to podcasts. There is, I think the neurodivergent university, um, that is great information. I mean, they have really good resources there as well. and try to find whatever tools you can get. Like for, for my kid, um, they had a, they gave him a tablet. Now they have apps out there all over, you know, but they gave him a tablet that actually helped him communicate with me in the beginning and maybe take some classes. Cause I took a 12 week course on, you know, play therapy with my son when he was nonverbal in the beginning to know how to Respond to him and him him. Learn how to respond with me. So there's and I read books, you know, I, I, I, I read books. I really didn't use Google to answer the questions. I wanted to get information from someone that had a degree and had a wealth of knowledge in in the area. So that's, you know, kind of the, the path I went, but I do want to cover 1 thing that we did talk about before. When you were interviewing me and that is the seriousness about masking because I did, um, lose custody of my son for eight months because his dad convinced the court that all of his bad behaviors was my fault. And, and I could understand why they would logically see that and feel that way because he would come home and he'd fall apart. And he would tell me about what happened and the, the abuse that he was experiencing. And it's hard because when you deal with another toxic parent, that parent can say, well, she's feeding him all that stuff. She's trying to make that child hate me and not like me. And not once did I say anything bad about this man. I was just like, no, I'm trying to help this child out. Something is wrong. If anyone is in the legal system and is dealing with this, um, your kid is autistic and the other parent is, um, trying to take custody or use those behaviors against you, you need to educate the judge, um, whether you have a parent coordinator, your attorney, you know, even school because the school didn't know what masking was. It's educating everyone. This is what that behavior is and, and talking to the child and saying, you know, why do you feel you need to mask and, and be quiet, go silent and let the kid tell you, this is why I'm masking because it traumatized my kid. I mean, it was, I, my, my son is still in trauma therapy because of what happened legally with, you know, cause I lost custody and it was, it was. A horrible experience and my son actually feels responsible for it because he realizes that if he didn't mask, that never would have happened.

Amanda:

making sure I'm on here. I did want to get back to that because I know a lot of our parents that listen. Um, and a lot of the parents at the studio, we have a, no masking, no judgment policy at the studio. We're not going to judge you for your kids, autistic traits and the number of parents who are told if you would just discipline your child, they would lose all these autistic traits.

Kerie:

And if you discipline them the way that your parents disciplined you, you will most likely damage that child. I'm going to just be flat out honest because we live in a world now where. Empathy is important. Vulnerability is important. And really, getting on that child's level to understand them of, of what, what's going, what is going on. Because the child is masking out of fear. Fear that I won't be liked. Fear that I won't be accepted. Fear that I won't make friends. Fear that I'll be punished. Fear that I'll be shamed or humiliated. And they, there's reasons why they're masking. You need to find out what the reason is. And you need to really talk with your kiddo to, Hey, even when you're angry, I still love you. You know, I mean, I tell that to my son all the time. When you lose it, I still love you. When you say hateful, mean things to me, I know you still love me and I love you because you always come around and apologize and say, I'm sorry.

Amanda:

the 1 that gets me with our studio is the kids will get so excited when they get a step right and go and want to, like, scream and have. A party for it, which they really should because I mean, dance is hard and then their parents are like, oh, I'm so sorry. They got excited.

Kerie:

You shouldn't be you should be celebrating with them because it's an achievement. It's not an embarrassment

Amanda:

and they're like, but everywhere else we've been, if my child does, and you can see it, because they'll be like, clapping, running around in circles and stuff. They're young. Let them have their excitement

Kerie:

Yes, don't shame them because then you're grooming them. You're literally grooming them to want to mask you're letting them know Unconsciously that they're not good enough.

Amanda:

And that I think hurt so much as these parents are apologizing for their kids being happy that they got something right. And I'm like, you as parents also shouldn't have been getting this from society that your kid can't be excited that they got something right.

Kerie:

Yeah. No, I I hear you

Amanda:

Which then leads me back to sometimes we have dance studios call up and go, how can we do this in our studio? And I'm like, you can't because you would have to change how you actually work. You would have to be okay with a kid going. Oh, my gosh, I, we had a really bad 2 weeks of storms and our kids came back and they're like, 5, Neurotypical kids are going to forget in that time. Our kids forgot. None of the steps they've been working on and our teachers were just thrilled and scream like wanting to scream. But remembering screaming in front of the little kids is bad, but they wanted to scream from joy going. You've been gone 2 weeks and you remembered everything I taught you. And then the parents are like, I am so sorry. My child is excited. They remembered and it's like. Be excited, they remembered after 2 weeks.

Kerie:

Yeah, be excited because some people wouldn't, you know, average person, you know, might not and so and that's the thing about kids with autism is they get really, really fixated, but that fixation can be a gift because they're perfecting it.

Amanda:

Yes. Well, um, I truly enjoyed having you on today. Carrie. Thank you so much for your time. We're

Kerie:

Thank you so much for having me on here. I really appreciate you. And if anyone wants to. Know where they can find me. You can just Google my name. It's really easy. It's spelled K E R I E, last name Logan.

Amanda:

going to have, um, your socials and your website in the description of the podcast. Um, it's also going to be, we keep a running. Page on our website of all of our previous guests, and you will have a spot on there too. If anyone's looking and going, oh, I don't remember where I can find her. We'll have it on the website and in the description.

Kerie:

Thank you so much. I appreciate that.

Amanda:

Thank you again for. Dealing with all the technical difficulties today. I really appreciate it.

Kerie:

And thank you, Leta, for being a wonderful host as well.

Amanda:

Can you say thank you?

Kerie:

She's smiling.

Amanda:

He said, thank you. She has kind of peopled out this week.

Kerie:

It's okay. It's okay. It's all,

Amanda:

It is Wednesday and she's already got like four more. She's guesting for next month on autism podcast and some, uh, mainstream podcasts, and she's been Monday. She was on camera from 9 AM to 5 PM. And she's like, I'm peopled out for the week. Mom,

Kerie:

I would too. So.

Amanda:

thanks again for your time, Carrie.

Kerie:

You're welcome, Amanda.

Amanda:

we can't wait to talk to you again. Possibly

Kerie:

Okay. Take care and many blessings to you. Okay. Bye.

Leta:

Hey well, thank you for watching the podcast and please subscribe and also look at that adorable paper. Don't you want to subscribe for it and also please leave a like and don't forget if you subscribe to our stuff you won't miss any of our new podcast stuffies and also you can see that adorable paper. Don't you like it?

People on this episode

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Amanda Trisdale

Host
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Leta Rundell

Host