The Power of Therapy Dogs: Enhancing Education and Reducing Stress

In this episode of Leta’s Tap Styles Podcast, host Leta and her mom, Amanda, discuss the impact of therapy dogs in educational settings with Dr. Barbara Vokatis, half of an amazing therapy dog team, and a professor of Education. They explore the differences between therapy dogs, service dogs, and emotional support animals. Dr. Barb shares unique experiences of including her dog, Carmel, in classroom activities, enhancing learning and reducing stress among children. The conversation also delves into potential applications of therapy dogs in dance studios and other environments, stressing the importance of creativity and adaptability in integrating therapy animals.

You can find Barb (and Carmel) at

⁠https://barbaravokatis.com⁠

⁠https://www.instagram.com/dr.barb.educator/⁠

https://www.facebook.com/barbara.vokatis

⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbara-vokatis-ph-d-530649a/⁠

You can find Leta and Amanda at

The Podcast's Website: https://www.letatapstyles.com

The Podcast's TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@letatapstylespodcast

The Podcast's Facebook https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61562557047377

The Podcast/Leta's YouTube Channel http://www.youtube.com/@letatapstyles

Leta's Instagram Account https://www.instagram.com/@letatapstyles

Autistic Wings Dance Company https://www.autisticwingsdancecompany.org

Transcript

Dr. Barb: 0:00

Bring in someone in, uh, with a dog who will be just present. So being present means laying down, sitting down, being petted by children, just touching the fur right is going to create this, uh, different kind of mind. Sort of thinking because all of a sudden, I mean that's why it works with kids who have like attention deficit in school. You bring the dog, all of a sudden they, uh, they play a little bit with the dog, they pet the dog, and all of a sudden the mind is totally focused on the dog and they forget that they were supposed to maybe misbehave in different.

Leta: 0:40

This is Leta and this is me and my mommy's my mommy, and there's me and I'm just talking about this stuff. And there's me tap dancing because this is the tap Dancing Autism podcast and there's bunch animals and I'll be trying to in my hair and this bunch saying, and. Dancing. Oh, also, they're my boots. My boots are amazing. Also, dance, me trying not to have a panic attack. Also, this is a podcast that we autism and kept dancing and blah, blah, blah. I'm A DHD. This thing also. This your adorable puppy.

. Amanda: 1:30

Leta, are you good at introducing the podcast this week?

Leta: 1:37

I am Leta. That's my mommy. This is a human being if, but he says anything bad about my mother. I will couple your career. I don't care if I'm a tap dancer. I darn well care if I'm I'll come after your career if you say anything bad about my mommy. I love my mommy with all my heart.

Dr. Barb: 1:54

Ah, that's awesome.

Amanda: 1:57

Jesus a sweetheart, um, to. Today we have Dr. Barb on the podcast. I am absolutely terrible at introducing people. Do you mind introducing yourself to our audience like you're meeting 'em at a coffee shop?

Dr. Barb: 2:09

Sure. I mean any, any, any way I'm, I'm good with any way. Uh, the quick thing would be, the quick introduction would be I am a full-time professor and, uh, working at the university teaching teachers and those who want to be teachers who are about to. Become teachers, but I also, um, am passionate about dog therapy and, uh, including therapy, animals in education. So in schools, that's where I go with my dog. Carmel, who by the way, is a Golden Doral visible ray here on the cover of my book, so that's Carmel. So my introduction cannot happen without introducing my dog too. If you're lucky enough, you will hear her bark, but that depends on the surroundings. So I, uh, go with my dog to school and I also, um, experiment with different ways of including my dog to help children in all kinds of ways. And we've seen children, uh, doing better with writing math and now recently social studies and science because of some creative inclusion of my dog.

Amanda: 3:22

I really wanna get into that, but, uh, if you don't mind explaining to everyone, because I know there's some confusion among the general public on the difference between ESA therapy dogs and service docs.

Dr. Barb: 3:38

Sure. And there is still a lot of confusion, really. Uh, again, the quick explanation would be, uh, therapy dogs are dogs, um, that go to facilities such as they can go to hospitals, they can go to nursing homes, they can go to schools, and they, um. Help people there in just being calmer and, and all kinds of other ways. And in order to do this work to meet with all these different children and patients, they have to have some sort of certification really. And they have to be able to. Uh, allow others, pet them and interact with them in certain ways. So a dog like that needs to have a certain, um, disposition that's really very important. Not every dog can be a therapy dog. Even if they're very obedient and go through training and they can do all kinds of commands, it doesn't mean they can be a therapy dog. So it's a, it's an elite group, I should say, to become a therapy dog. You are an elite dog. Not every dog can do this. And by the way, there's also other animals who can be therapy animals. Now, service dog is a little bit different. Service dog does not serve, uh. Populations such as school or patients, um, or people in nursing home service dog serves one concrete person and that service dog, um, does some kind of task for the person. Usually the person would have some kind of disability and the dog would perform a concrete task that helps. In that disability. It could be something like detecting a seizure, a common seizure. Some dogs can do it, and which is unbelievable. Um, so, and these dogs, service dogs, they can, they have access anywhere they can go with, uh, owner to, um. Anywhere, even to restaurants even, they can fly with them. Uh, not many people, like, not everybody likes it and there's sometimes issues with giving access to these dogs, which is really sometimes breaking the law because these service dogs have, I. Access if they are real, real service dogs. And then there is a third time, right? Of course, just because they were a vest, that's a service dog. Doesn't make 'em service dog. And um, also there's another type of animal, uh, emotional support animal, and that's an animal. Um, you can have, for instance, uh, you can get a paper from a doctor or from your therapist that says that. Your dog is your emotional support animal. And let's say if you live somewhere where dogs are not allowed by the landlord, let's say, uh, you might be able to have your dog there because your dog is emotional support animal. So kind of a quick explanation of these three types.

Amanda: 6:36

I know a lot of people seem to think at least where we are, that service dogs and therapy dogs are equal to ESAs, and it's like, no, these guys go through a little bit more training, like a lot.

Dr. Barb: 6:49

It's, it's, it can be very different. There are service dogs that are trained, but certain organizations that train service dogs for a variety of of disabilities. But, uh. But it's possible to even have your own dog trained by yourself to perform a task for you. Um, if I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure you don't have to have your service dog go through any kind of in formal certified training at all. And, um, and that's, you protect it as a person with disability. And, um, these people need to also know, um. What kind of questions are allowed If you appear with your service dog somewhere, people can ask you certain questions, but not just about anything. So it's important really to know your, uh, know your rights as a service dog, um, owner, and understand how that works, which doesn't sometimes mean that it will be honored.

Amanda: 7:52

Yeah,

Dr. Barb: 7:54

Yeah.

Amanda: 7:55

there's not, uh, there are a lot of people around here in Colorado who are getting so tired of those fake service dogs that they're starting to not own honor the real service dogs.

Dr. Barb: 8:05

That can be a problem because sometimes there's so-called fake service dogs. So that is a red flag and that can, uh, unfortunately this can do some harm to real authentic service dogs. Uh, definitely so. The more we can do it to kind of, I don't know, spread awareness about it. I mean, you always have people who will try to bend the rules and do certain things that are not really right. I don't think they understand that they do harm to real service dogs who perform sometimes life saving tasks for the people who have these service dogs.

Amanda: 8:46

Know, I've got some friends, uh, who have PTSD service dogs and people are like, oh, so they're just like an E, SA and it's like not quite.

Dr. Barb: 8:55

Right. It's not, it's not the same at all. Yeah.

Amanda: 8:58

But I did wanna ask you, 'cause you're taking therapy dogs, which, you know, usually people think of as going to court, going to the airport now.'cause TSA is so stressful to everyone,

Dr. Barb: 9:09

Yeah. Yeah.

Amanda: 9:10

um, going to, you know, senior ci, senior citizen centers and to hospitals and you're bringing them into the school and seeing some amazing results.

Dr. Barb: 9:22

Yes. Yes, we, yes we do. Uh, well, the field of therapy dogs, it, it's, it's really who has a therapy dog is going to be a member of some kind of therapy dog organization, right? And this therapy dog organization. Um. Had a test, uh, and, and, and you pass the test, you get certified and then you pay your dues and you belong to the organization. Be because you have to have a valid, um, active, uh, therapy doc. You have to submit, uh, medical records. These dogs have to go to, uh, annual checkups. There is some, there is some, uh, responsibilities here and every therapy dog organization is a little bit different. So dogs would usually. Go, uh, to the classroom. And there is some activities they do that are pretty well known and also very well researched, such as the dog will sit down or lay down and will, uh, just sort of listen to some children reading to the dog. And this is really. Awesome activity because the kid just reads to the dog. The dog doesn't correct any, you know, mispronunciation, the dog is just there to comfort the child, listen to their reading and be happy and, uh, reduce stress, uh, anxiety and all that. So this is well known. There's quite, um. A lot of benefits to that. The dogs can be, uh, included in all different ways. Um, with my dog, what we do often, what we used to do quite a lot was just, uh, going into the classroom and just like going around the classroom. You have a class of 20 kids or more and they're doing something. They learning right? Math, social studies or something else. And I'm just walking around with my dog and. Wherever we stop, the kid gets a chance to pet Carmel talk to her, and then we just go to the next child and everybody keeps learning. It's not like we are there for half an hour and the learning stops. It doesn't, we are just a part of this learning. Um. So that worked very, very well because it allows the whole class to benefit from interacting with my dog children. Children and teachers love this activity. But then, um, about three year ago, three years ago, I think we started, um, I. Experimenting with including car in other ways, in learning. And that's when we discovered what else and how much you can do if you, um, have a little bit of. Curious and experimental and innovative mind and include your dog in ways that your dog will find enjoyable and children will as well. So that really totally opened a different door to, uh, results and to what we saw.

Amanda: 12:21

Uh. That I know in our pre-interview we discussed that you have to have a lot of imagination and creativity to do what you're doing.

Dr. Barb: 12:30

Yeah, but really it's not that hard because, I mean, obviously you work with someone with a teacher who, um, with whom you, you. You have pleasure to work with, right? You both want to help children. You are both, both creative and you understand the value of trying different things in teaching. You understand that teaching is about that, right? So if you do that and you understand that together, you can just. Come up with ideas that literally comes, they come from nowhere. We just get together sometimes because we live not so far away from each other. Sometimes we'll just, um, go to Starbucks and, uh, we talk about it. What happened last time in the classroom. There is so much joy in talking about it because you talk about what you noticed, what children were doing, what they were saying when you were with Carmel. It's just amazing stuff. And then, uh, okay, what we gonna do next time? And things just come out of. Literally nowhere. Let's do this. Oh, I got this unit. So how about if we do that? How about if we do that? All right. And sometimes she has maybe not as much time, so I come up more with the activity and sometimes, um, it just, these things are just, they just happen on the go. It's absolutely amazing. I think I should write an article just about that.

Amanda: 13:49

Definitely I, I would read it. Um, 'cause I think that what you're talking about would be amazing in a lot of different educational situations.

Dr. Barb: 13:59

Totally, totally. Because we've seen kids, um, for instance in math, simple activity. It was really cool. The teacher, she created like paper leaves. Like what happens in the fall? The leaves fall right from the trees depending on where you live. We are here in upstate New York, so, and she laminated those leaves and every leaf had a math fact, let's say one plus two. Two plus three, whatever. And she just like threw those leaves on the car pad. So kids already had fun because it was like, it was just so awesome. You know, they were on their feet, they were moving around and they were, they were having fun seeing Carmel sniffing those leaves too. So you can imagine all that fun. And then, and then we asked them, well, everybody, and there was a group of like very, very small group of children. Whose math skills were very, very, very weak, you know, and they didn't even, it was a remedial math group. They didn't even want to go to this group because when you in that group, you know you are weak, right? And you have to go there. There is a reason why. And, um, so everybody pick, um, two, three leads, all right? And, uh, they. Show three leaves or four leaves to Carmel, my dog sniffs, uh, or touches one of those leaves. So the kid gets so excited, oh my gosh, Carmel picked that. I will do this math fact one plus two, let's say. Right? And then they work on that fact and they just like so motivated to do this work. And, and then they have to go and match the math fact with the answer. And these answers were on like laminated circles I think. So they go, so again, they move a little, move their bodies. They go and match the leaf with the circle, and then they call me and Carmel. I was like, Mrs. V and Carmel, can you come and check my math fact if it's okay? So I come with my dog. And when we come to that leave matched with the circle, my dog would usually sit down 'cause that's just what she does. Or she would just like sniff the leave touched with her nose and the kid screams, I'm right, I'm right because Carol just confirmed that my answer is right. It was so, it was just I, we couldn't believe it. And actually. It was the children's idea to, um, to show Carmel more leaves than one. I want Carmel to pick which math fact I'm going to do, and it's just like, and kids believing that Carmel is a math dog. She knows math. These were, I think, first graders or second graders. So obviously you're going to have a little bit different variation in which age group you teach. Uh, but um, and just to finish this, and it was like half an hour and then at the end it's like, what? The time is up? We are done with the activity. We wanna keep doing math with Carmel. Totally crazy. And, uh, everybody's entertained and moving around. Kids were playing math, hide and seek with Carmel too. Uh, when she found someone in the classroom, they would have to tell her like the time or the value of the money, whatever we were working on. And they were just so excited. And now we are working with fifth graders. And it's also amazing, uh, they, and it's interesting because some of these kids, they had my dog when they were in second grade and now they're in fifth grade and they know, remember Carmel from second grade and I think this is going to be such an amazing experience from their, like, years of school, elementary school. They will remember that they had therapy dog that they learn with the dog. And what they learn, they will remember all that stuff. It's amazing. And we hear from them. Uh, I remember when we were doing the book project, several months after that, the kids were talking to me about it. I still have my book we did with Carmel. They just talking about this by themselves without me asking, oh, do you still remember your book? I don't have to say it. They telling me on their own.

Amanda: 18:14

I am kind of wondering if it would help with remedial. Math classes at college too.

Dr. Barb: 18:21

Definitely that's another level college. Um, when I take my dog, sometimes I take a, to where I work in college and uh, normally they don't see dogs, animals in the hallways or in the classrooms. And I remember one time, um. I was walking with my dog and all of a sudden I hear someone screaming, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. I hear a dog and it's just this college student, you know, 21, 22 years old, and they just running in the hallway. They look like a kindergartner. When they do this and they just come and, oh my gosh, there's a dog here in the car. Thank you so much. This is gonna make my day. And at this moment, you cannot really even make a difference. This is a kindergartner or college student. Everybody's just so happy that they see. A dog, then, Kay, they can pet the dog. Sometimes they, they not sure. They want to ask, is it okay to pet the dog? Because again, some people think, oh, maybe it's a service dog, right? Maybe I shouldn't touch it. Maybe I should ask. Which is nice. So I'm like, sure, yes, she's a therapy dog, so you're very welcome to pet her. And then, um, it's, it's, it's unbelievable. I think that. And any age, uh, at any place, almost animals would just do so much, um, goodness for people who are stressed out. And, um, and then it's just opens people and as far as conversations, sharing and, and feeling better.

Amanda: 19:56

I think dogs are definitely, you just spent the entire weekend with your grandparents, puppies, and you're like.

Dr. Barb: 20:02

Yeah. That's awesome. Uh,

Leta: 20:06

better then. Grandparents

Dr. Barb: 20:10

and adult dogs who, I mean you can, puppies, they cannot do the therapy dog work. You have to be, the dog has to be at least 1-year-old, but they are kind of like puppies still.

Amanda: 20:22

Uh, yeah, we adopted our two, they were covid puppies. We adopted 'em when they were a year old, and we usually adopt senior dogs, and I did not realize how much energy 1-year-old dogs still have.

Dr. Barb: 20:34

Oh yeah. Yeah. And my dog had so much energy that we were, we had, we struggled with even walking her. And that's how the journey to therapy really started because we had to hire literally a trainer who would help us walk our dog. It was, it was unbelievable.

Amanda: 20:54

We had a trainer try to teach the one that's not down here, but uh, is in her bedroom because she does not behave while we're doing podcast. She, the trainer, was like, I can get her to walk on a leash. And I'm like, someone took a working line, beagle. What?

Leta: 21:12

our Big Ado. Lily wants to murder every human being inside. I dunno how badly Scotch does before us human SCO her, but they did something to her.

Amanda: 21:23

She definitely came with some, uh, reactiveness to humans, but they were trying to get her to walk on a leash and someone took a working hunting line beagle and put, crossed it with a working hunting line lab. Those things don't enjoy walking on leashes.

Leta: 21:39

Who is that And does not like you, but did the slide this and think, oh, hey, let's be train her. That's like, that's probably inly going kill me and mama, find me.

Amanda: 21:53

She just likes fluffing.'cause we have two dogs and the other one's a staffy pity mix. And he'll love you to death and everyone's scared of him 'cause he's a bully breed. Of course.

Dr. Barb: 22:02

Yeah. Oh, they are

Amanda: 22:04

the Beagle Lab mixer, like, oh, she's so pretty. Can I pet her? And I'm like, I don't think you understand. Beagles are not exactly human friendly.

Leta: 22:12

Can't sue me if I have video Proof of you not

Dr. Barb: 22:16

I don't, I don't know many of them, but I know that, I know our neighbor had a beagle and, uh, I mean, every dog has a different personality, so there is no such a thing like, you know, uh, uh, that certain breeds are better for therapy work. I don't know how many, there are many beagles doing therapy work that I don't know. There are more hunting dogs. I mean, my dog is a hunting mix of hunting breeds too, the retriever and mostly pto, but. Beagles are quite hunters, I think.

Amanda: 22:49

The, and she was being trained to leash by someone who works with hunting dogs, and they were like, yeah, maybe you shouldn't mix. Two dog breeds because she's hunting line on top of it versus, you know, show line. And it's like there's a difference between show line and hunting line.

Dr. Barb: 23:07

Yeah. They will have certain predispositions for sure.

Amanda: 23:11

But, um, then there's dirt over here who's scared of his own shadow. And people are like, but he's a bully breed. So I'm scared of him and I'm like, each dog has their own personality.

Leta: 23:22

brain. He has no brain. The only thing in this brain is rpdu, dur, dur, dur. Let me sleep and like disturb.

Amanda: 23:35

is definitely more about dogs than people, which yes.

Leta: 23:40

wing this. This

Dr. Barb: 23:41

Which, which is not bad then at all. Well, animals are amazing.

Leta: 23:46

Little Angel. Oh,

Dr. Barb: 23:48

You're so cute.

Amanda: 23:50

They are attached at the hip. If you can't tell, she is his emotional support person 'cause he needs an emotional support person. Yep.

Dr. Barb: 24:02

totally.

Amanda: 24:04

I wanted to, 'cause um, I mentioned in our pre-interview that Leta had started a dance studio specifically for autistic kids. And I know her old dance studio, the owner had a therapy dog, which of course attracted Leta, like a magnet.

Dr. Barb: 24:20

Yeah. Awesome.

Amanda: 24:22

and we had talked a little bit, but I know you can't, since you're not here, you're not working with the kids and everything, but if. Would it be something that like possibly with the right, uh, combo working team, it could work in a dance studio?

Dr. Barb: 24:41

I think so, uh, it's, it's, it's really about trying things and, uh, you have to remember, um, there are, so most of the therapy organizations, they are, um. How would I say that? They kind of, you know, they certified, uh, your dog, meaning that your dog is, uh, able to interact in certain ways with people, but they don't necessarily teach you in what ways. So like all this creativity that I did, that was a result of just what we have tried together with my dog. Um, I didn't learn it anywhere, but there are, there is one specific organization and they are actually international and they are called, uh, it's an International Institute of Animal Play Therapy, and this is something super cool because. In that institute, they really, um, look at how an animal, if they consent, if they, if they okay with certain activities, how they can be, uh, incorporated in activities in all different ways and in more playful ways, in ways that it will work with everybody involved. So it's a combination of animal therapy and play therapy, which is a kind of like two separate fields, but they're combined together in that practice. So I think that generally someone who is, um, certified through that organization and they have quite a intensive, uh, process of certification, but they will have more knowledge and skills through learning. About different ways, creative ways of including a therapy animal in a dance studio like that. Again, like I said, re therapy organizations, they just mostly, uh, make sure that you're certified to go in and your dog is, um, has a good demeanor. Is okay with being petted, but they don't really, uh, try or teach about all different ways of interacting. So again, it's the international, um, Institute of Animal Assisted, uh, play therapy. They do more of that kind of work.

Amanda: 27:12

I'm also, I know a lot of the, the or dance studios, not just us, but the neurotypical, we don't do it 'cause I, uh, have meltdowns myself when, uh, I go to competitions. So why would I put my dancers through it? But I know a lot of the studios are doing competitions and these kids are getting super stressed at these competitions and I'm, after talking to you, I'm like, maybe therapy dogs wouldn't be a bad idea at the competitions.

Dr. Barb: 27:40

Yeah. And even in the most simple way, like even if you don't learn, um. If you don't, uh, have anybody around in your area who is certified through that animal assisted play therapy, but even just, uh, bringing someone in, uh, with the dog who will be just present. So being present means. Laying down, sitting down, being petted by children, just touching the fur, right? Uh, is going to create this, uh, different kind of mind. Sort of thinking because all of a sudden, I mean that's why it works with kids who have like attention deficit in school. You bring the dog, all of a sudden they, uh, they play a little bit with the dog, they pet the dog, and all of a sudden the mind is totally focused on the dog and they forget that they were supposed to maybe misbehave, act differently. They're focused on the animal and then it's just so much easier than to connect it with something so reduces distress, reduces this. Pressure. So again, even just regular, uh, dog sort of bean and being petted, that would already, uh, do, uh, do a lot.

Amanda: 28:58

I know she definitely did a lot better at her neurotypical studio when the dog was at the studio because like you said, she could sit down, she could pet the dog.

Dr. Barb: 29:07

Mm-hmm.

Amanda: 29:07

a lot of the. Reasons she can't be at a neurotypical studio is things like they were getting onto her for not looking people in the eye. And if you're not looking me in the eye, and that's, you know, an autistic trait 1 0 1.

Dr. Barb: 29:22

This is, so this is just, yeah, we just touching on another important area of just people not understanding for whatever reason, not wanting to, and just kind of like. Operating within this normal, what's normal and when you don't look into the eye, that is not normal. Therefore, we don't want it. We only promote what we think should be happening. It's just very, um, unfortunate. And I mean, what we trying to do right on social media. You, I and other people too. I'll be interviewing someone who's really doing a lot of work in this area. It's just, um, really spreading more awareness. I mean, neurotypical people, I mean, yes, they might be a little bit different, but, uh. If you kind of understand them a little bit and let them be who they are and just like curious about them, you actually can learn a lot from them. So it's like, why do you deprive yourself of this opportunity? Right? And by only operating with some kind of normal, uh, what is really normal? I mean, I don't even understand how people can still think that there is something that's called normal really. And, uh, but. You know, we are just trying to do what we can to spread this awareness about our children and about, uh, how we should be a little bit more open to just the wide scope of personalities, talents, and, you know, being living. Right? That's what this world is about. It's like, why are we so some of us still so closed, uh, to these ideas? I'm not sure about that.

Amanda: 31:04

The other thing she would get, there's a lot of reading and dance, which you wouldn't know but, 'cause it doesn't sound like something and

Dr. Barb: 31:11

No. Right.

Amanda: 31:13

you're like, really? You need to read and dance. Um, she would come out after being. They would be forcing her to read. And finally when we left one of the last dance studios, they're like, well, dyslexia doesn't mean she can't read. It just means she's too lazy to make the words stop floating. And I'm like, she has severe dyslexia. That's but am I right Leta, that if cash was around you felt better at the dance studio? She's like, I'm sleeping on my puppy.

Dr. Barb: 31:41

But even saying something like that, you know, that someone is lazy, I mean, things like that, we would maybe hear like. 20, 30 years ago, but right now when people should know a little bit more about, uh, autism and, uh, and, and just how these children function, that is totally unacceptable to say something like that about a child to me. And again, I mean, I can be surprised that it's happening, but yeah, sure. These things are still happening, so it's like what do we do about it? The more we can be vocal about these things, um, on our podcast. And, and to be honest with you, um, because I listened to some big podcasts out there, not many, but several. There are not, that there is not that much conversation about autistic people, how they function. I, I, I don't, I mean, there are podcasts devoted to autism. Okay. I get it. And that's important. But I wish, um, this, um, people who live with this condition and are successful because a lot of them are, they should be talking about this more. They should be invited to this. To these big podcasts to talk about this because everybody can benefit from understanding this, right?

Amanda: 33:01

Oh yes. Um, because there are a, even a lot of big autism podcasts, they're just talking about like, I don't know how to put it. My brain is not function, figuring out how I wanna do it, but they're not talking about exactly how these. Like Leta and I function, I had someone get upset at me 'cause I do notes on decks and they're like, well you can't do notes that way. And I'm like, uh, well, but that's how my brain does it. And they're like, but that's not typical. And I'm like, I get it. But that's

Dr. Barb: 33:34

not typical of, okay, so what? This is funny, right? Almost.

Amanda: 33:40

and it's the silly things like that that we're not talking about or, uh, stemming. I think there's still a lot of misconceptions as to what stemming is.

Dr. Barb: 33:52

Yeah.

Amanda: 33:52

She's like, you got off the topic of puppies, but I

Dr. Barb: 33:56

It all goes together because therapy docs, they can really, they can help so much, um, every child, including autistic children. And right now there is also, because I can see there are some people, um, who are like, uh, doing PhD degrees in this area of interactions between animal and humans, and they want to study this more and more. So the influenza of therapy animals on autistic individuals, and it would be cool definitely to have more research in this area. No doubt about it,

Amanda: 34:29

And they're starting to, and I say starting to, but you know, I've got a PhD in physics, so anything that's less than 30 years old is a new study. Right?

Dr. Barb: 34:37

right?

Amanda: 34:39

they're starting to have autistic service dogs, which I don't think a lot of people understand. You have to give accommodations to that service doc.

Dr. Barb: 34:49

There is an issue with this area, however, because, um, to be a service dog, I just spoke about it on my podcast, with someone, to be a service dog, you have to complete, you have to do a concrete task for the person. And uh, for many autistic people, they don't have epilepsy, right? And they don't have this, they don't have that. So it's like they don't need this concrete task. The task for them is a little bit different. It make them function better, but the law is just too strict about the definition of a service dog. So right now we have a serious problem with getting more service dogs for autistic individuals because in many cases, I. The task that needs to be performed with them is not a concrete task, such as detection when the epilepsy, uh, seizure is coming. Right? So, uh, it, it's, it's, it's a, it's a problematic, uh, situation here that doesn't serve well autistic individuals, they need service dogs. So hopefully something can be changed with this, which usually will take quite a while as we know.

Amanda: 35:59

It's the same issue you find with the TBIs and PTSD dogs that are, you know, there to help keep the pressure when they're going into meltdowns and everything. And it's like, well, how do you explain that? That's actually a useful task.

Dr. Barb: 36:16

Right, right. So there is some, it's just not easy to, uh, there is a problem with that. I didn't realize it, but when I talked to that expert, she, she told me she works with a lot of autistic children and she also is certify, um, professional in the area of animal assisted intervention. And this is a big problem right now. And again, we need some kind of advocacy to change the law to kind of, uh. Alter it a little bit so it works for autistic people. So again, autistic people are just like, it's just there's a lot of struggle. They don't get what they need. Um, still.

Amanda: 36:59

Uh, I think part of it is we haven't been allowed at the table a lot. You see a lot of the autism groups are all run by neurotypical people,

Dr. Barb: 37:10

Yeah.

Amanda: 37:10

you're like, do you know what's going on? Um, but I think that this is about puppy. She's like, I'm pouting.'cause I thought this was about puppies mommy. Um, but I think there's, I've seen her, I've seen me, I've seen so many other people react so much better to the dogs. When the dogs are there, we react better.

Dr. Barb: 37:39

Let me just connect, uh, my computer right here. Here we go. I didn't notice it. I didn't have connect. I mean, uh, interacting with animals is just so beneficial to everyone. And one thing that we notice and that is very important and that is about puppies, that when you have a therapy animal in the classroom, you can create a better community. And better inclusion for autistic children within the classroom. We noticed this, we noticed that we, and when we included my dog kids who normally would not work with each other, all of a sudden they were working with each other on some projects and we were noticing these things. There is such a huge opportunity to create a better kinder classroom community and teach kids about kindness in not generic ways. Not by saying we should all be friends or we should all. Be kind to each other. That is just not going to happen. Kids, um, they see if something is not authentic, that for them, it's just fake. They just like see right through it. Right?

Amanda: 38:56

Um, you're like, I am just snuggling my dog over here. She is kind of peopled out this week.

Dr. Barb: 39:03

Yeah.

Amanda: 39:04

And I don't think people understand how people to out autistic, uh, people can get, it's an actual symptom of autism.

Dr. Barb: 39:13

Yeah, it's very interesting. I learned so much from my own child who is autistic. I would not know that. Uh, and I, and I get this, but, but I think the way we get this information out and encourage people to be more attentive to autistic people and be interested in them is if we talk more about benefits of interacting with autistic individuals.'cause there's. There's quite a few benefits and you can learn from these people, but maybe not everybody knows. Maybe they're afraid of those interactions, you know what I mean? There's just not enough information.

Amanda: 39:44

I know a few of her dance teachers before we moved.'cause you know I can control now who's in our studio and we've told some people, no you can't work with us 'cause we're not allowing our children to mask. They're like, she needs to mask. So I feel more comfortable. She needs to lower her voice before it lowered.'cause like most autistic kids, her voice didn't lower in time. She needs to quit stemming. She needs to do this. And I'm like, what of this is hurting anything in the classroom?

Dr. Barb: 40:13

Right, exactly. Um, well, we need to, well, I'll tell you what, Amanda, we have some more work to do.

Amanda: 40:21

We have a lot more work to do and your generation's gonna have a lot of work to do. She's giving me an ugly look like. Yes. Thanks for leaving me all this work, mom.

Dr. Barb: 40:29

Yeah. But I believe with now, with social media, with uh, with, with podcasts, things we are doing, uh, I think we can get some more work done. Definitely. I really believe it.'cause these times are kind of better because we can get more things out there. Uh, so I think it's going to get better, but it's just always a process You.

Amanda: 40:52

And I noticed, uh. My in-laws dogs are farm dogs, so they're not therapy dogs. They're not trained, and they were born in August, so they have, they're not even old enough to begin therapy training, obviously, but she was out tap dancing and one of them got up and started dancing with her.

Dr. Barb: 41:11

exactly. So, um, it's just a way of, um. Experimenting with the therapy dog. The therapy dog can also be kind of included a little bit in a dance, can dance with the child a little bit. There's just so you can experiment, there's just one very important aspect. Therapy dog has to be okay with this activity. They have to give consent to this activity if they don't like to do it. You cannot force the therapy doc to do it just because you think it would work with the child. No. Um, it's a. Important to consider that.

Amanda: 41:49

Weedy definitely gave his consent. It wasn't like us pushing, uh, Leta and dancing. Was that fun? Dancing with Weedy? You're like, I'm wagging my tail like a puppy dog right now. Um, 'cause he just, he was over by my husband, not in the shot at all. She starts going really fast and Wheatie just bounce up and starts dancing

Dr. Barb: 42:10

Yeah, yeah, sure. They would naturally do it. And that's fun. And um, and the dog is providing dog therapy, so to speak, and it's just a little bit different way because that's how it is. Whatever works, right. And whatever works for everybody, obviously. Yeah.

Amanda: 42:28

Uh, and that's where I was like, I need to talk to Barb when she comes on.'cause that was, I, you know, her dogs are trained to kind of stay out of the shot, but. A non-trained dog just comes in and goes, I'm going to bounce, and he even got his paws trying to go as fast as her feet were going.

Dr. Barb: 42:47

So again, like the classic therapy dog for most of these organizations, they just kind of like, you know, they, they listen, they are nice, they are petted. Um, but uh, there are a lot of people in this, um, group of therapy, animal handlers. Who are starting to do more things, are starting to experiment more. And, um, that Institute of Animal Assisted Play Therapy is also quite influential. They have a, they have a certification, they have conference every year. It's a. Actually, it's a remote conference and anybody could come in and learn about it. And they have some resources too. And like I said, and they certify people all over the world actually, because in it's international, there may be someone who knows about this therapy and has animals And does animal assisted play therapy in your area? It's just you don't know about it yet? Not yet.

Amanda: 43:49

Yet.'cause I am going to go look them up and go, hi, you don't know me, but we've got this silly idea going on. Uh, you guys willing to maybe collaborate on an idea?

Dr. Barb: 44:01

No, so seriously, and I wonder if they ever heard about the dancing studios and, and in, but it's just, they include therapy animals in such wide ranges of interactions. Uh, that, uh, I don't think they would be surprised, but I can give you the website for the, for the society and for that institute. And, um, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's, it's a very just incredible group of people. I just interviewed one of the leaders of that group and the podcast with her will be coming out, uh, April, April 7th. So just that you could listen to the episode two and see what she says to what they do. And, and there is so much more, of course, when you connect with them. Yeah.

Amanda: 44:49

I'm also wondering if I should suggest it to one of my friends, because I know her doc students might need some play therapy at the moment as they're going through their dissertations.

Dr. Barb: 44:59

Yeah. Oh sure. Yeah. And uh, they can benefit from it. They can maybe even. Uh, do something to collaborate and study or get into collaborations with other people to help in studying these interactions. There is still a lot that we need to do as far as studying these interactions.

Amanda: 45:22

Well, I called her and went, hi, this is another one of those podcasts you guys all need to listen to in your department. And she. Is like all you do anymore is call me going. I talked to someone in the education field. You need to be listening to them.

Dr. Barb: 45:35

Yeah. Right.

Amanda: 45:37

But that's what friends are for is to call you up and go, hi. I know you've got like 17 other papers you're writing.

Dr. Barb: 45:46

But it's all about just getting together, collaborating, and it's just, these days it's, this is more easier than before. And I know there's a lot of information out there and social media and all that, but this is such a cool field and I can do so much for education, for children, again, for all children. I.

Amanda: 46:06

Yeah.

Dr. Barb: 46:06

It doesn't matter if they have disabilities or not, but, but the bottom line is that everybody's stressed. So even kids who are like, so, like these eagles, they just do so well in every subject. Guess what? They're stressed too, right.

Amanda: 46:21

Yeah, her field of study, uh, she's right on the border and uh, her field of study has mostly been the kids who have to cross the border every day from Mexico to America, and the stress it puts on their education. And I'm like, I think I have an idea for you. These therapy dogs might be.

Dr. Barb: 46:40

Yeah. Yeah. They can help everybody and you know, if, if somebody, I mean, not everybody likes even dogs, right? But, uh, but there are other incredible therapy animals that can be therapy. Um. Bunnies, llamas, um, Guinea pigs. And recently I found out about therapy rats. It was just like so cute. Like just a nice, cute therapy rat. And they like certify those animals to be therapy animals. Um, just and therapy. Uh, mini a horses. Very cute too. Kids could dance outside the horse. I mean, I see so many possibilities like imitating the horse, how he, how the horse walks, or just like walking together and like connecting them with the dance or just. Interacting with the animal is a way of motivating themselves to do good in the therapy, in in, in the dance, um, workshop. So I think that possibilities are really limitless here.

Amanda: 47:43

I am so excited to see where all of your research goes on all this.

Dr. Barb: 47:48

So I mostly research like the, these interactions in the classroom. So right now it's, uh, we are doing science and social studies with fifth graders, which is really interesting. So that's what I'm doing now.

Amanda: 47:59

where it goes with science and social studies with fifth graders, I'm interested to see where it goes in the classroom.

Dr. Barb: 48:05

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And, uh, I try to post on social media too, or whatever we doing in the classroom, and, uh, and it's, uh, people are amazed what can happen in the classroom when you include dogs in creative ways. But to be honest with you, I am myself amazed.

Amanda: 48:23

That's always the best still is when you're in the middle of research and you're like, I am so amazed at what this research is

Dr. Barb: 48:29

Right. Like what's happening? Like we had no idea what was going to happen. And I'm looking at my collaborative teacher, she's looking at me, I'm like, wow, I can't believe this is happening.

Amanda: 48:39

That's when you know you're actually onto something is where it didn't go exactly the way you were expecting the research to go.

Dr. Barb: 48:46

Right. Or you, you didn't really even know. Right. You didn't even know. And, and then you just kind of see what's happening. And that's very encouraging too. But then is it really that surprising animals in the school? Uh, they just do so much for children and for teachers and for teachers. For stressed out teachers too.

Amanda: 49:04

The teachers probably need them too.

Dr. Barb: 49:06

Oh, they really do.

Amanda: 49:08

Oh yeah.

Dr. Barb: 49:09

They do.

Amanda: 49:09

They probably need, uh, the emotional support with, uh, I mean, not trying to be mean, but they have to deal with administrations and.

Dr. Barb: 49:18

Yeah. And administrators also can benefit from therapy, animals. And actually, you know, I have to say that administrators, they have, they have a huge role in this because administrators are the ones who can say yes or no to starting therapy. Animal therapy program in the school. There are schools whose administrators say no, they don't wanna know about it. Or they do, but they don't wanna try it. They don't want, uh, they think it's gonna be additional problems. They're not willing to explore it, which unfortunately is, um, it is the service to children who will benefit from it. I mean, I understand that not everybody likes dogs. There is some people with, uh, potentially severe allergies, but there is ways of mitigating these stents. And in that field there are ways to make sure that everybody is happy, satisfied, and nobody forces. Others to pet their dog. I mean, this is a choice and that's how this needs to be, um, introduced, uh, approached. So it's not like therapy animal comes and everybody has to interact with the therapy animal. So administrators really are huge gatekeepers to this practice.

Amanda: 50:46

They do. I've been in IEP meetings for other people's children's all week, so that's my deal with administrators this week is I'm like, hi. I dunno if you're aware of this, but, uh, everything you guys said I didn't like.

Dr. Barb: 51:01

Oh, gosh. Yeah. It's all about negotiation and just, uh, yeah, uh, these, it's, it's, it's not easy, but, but I think that like, uh. If somebody asks me, uh, how do I introduce it to an administrator who doesn't know anything about it? Well read about it first. Get knowledgeable about it, find out about benefits of it. So you come equipped knowing about the results, right? And that's, I think, how you can, um, make this happen and work slowly on administrators, uh, trying this. Sometimes they don't even know that they could do it. N they have no idea. They haven't heard much about it. Um, but um, but they should really, uh, explore that more and more.

Amanda: 51:52

We need better continuing education for even the administrators.

Dr. Barb: 51:56

We do. Sometimes I think the continuing education is just not going the right way. Like, it's like it's, I don't know, like. Like the teachers are maybe, um, just overloaded with all kinds of tasks that are actually taking their time from doing good professional development to get better with, uh, how to work autistic individuals and others. Do they have time for that? I'm not so sure about it.

Amanda: 52:26

I was dealing with someone who was in the SPED office and I was saying something about one of the. Newer papers, at least as far as science is concerned.'cause it was a 2010 paper, so it's newer there. Right. And she was like, wait, I've never heard of this. And I'm like, yeah, that's 'cause we're not having you guys keep up to date on the newest stuff out there.

Dr. Barb: 52:51

And I totally get it, that they might not even have time because they might be overloaded with doing other tasks that are not related as much with keeping up to the, with the professional development, unfortunately. And, um, we have to change this. Um,

Amanda: 53:09

We do.'cause um, especially, you know, the administrators, they kind of need, I get the teachers are all, all bogged down with like actually teaching.

Dr. Barb: 53:19

Yeah.

Amanda: 53:21

But if you're at the office for and not in the school, maybe we should be giving you guys a per professional development too.

Dr. Barb: 53:32

I think that administrator, good administrator should be good teachers first. They, they should be good teacher first and then they can administer. Uh, I'm not so sure how someone who, uh, was not in a classroom that much or maybe just doing physical, um, education, how they can administer. Properly without having this experience. That's kind of tricky here.

Amanda: 54:03

The, one of the people I was talking to this week does not even have an education degree. They. I have always been office management. I'm like, then you, how are you telling any which, I mean, I understand, but you kinda need to have a little educational background.

Dr. Barb: 54:21

Yeah, or some kind of professional development continuing. I mean, for whatever reason this person ended up in this position, but they are obligated to work towards being better, I think. Yeah,

Amanda: 54:37

Um, we enjoyed having you on Barb. It was so much fun. Um,

Dr. Barb: 54:42

I enjoyed it as well.

Amanda: 54:45

do you mind if we reach out in like a few months to see what's going on with research?

Dr. Barb: 54:49

Of course, of course. That would be just fabulous. And thank you so much for having me. Oh, I heard my dog barking slowly a little bit. Uh,

Amanda: 54:58

us like next time bring the puppy on the podcast.

Dr. Barb: 55:01

yeah. 65 pound pound puppy, but still, right.

Amanda: 55:05

Uh, that one's on a diet, but he's 72.

Dr. Barb: 55:09

Yeah. Uh, but uh, yes, she's someplace in a different room, but sure. Thank you so much for having me. Please let me know when, uh, the episode is out so I can help in promoting too and, uh, you know where to

Amanda: 55:21

that. Where can people find you on the web?

Dr. Barb: 55:25

So I am on, um, on major, uh, social media platform. I am on LinkedIn, so Barbara Vo, I am on Instagram. Um, Dr. Do Barb educator. I can give you those links to if you would like to include them in the show notes. Yeah, and I'm also on Facebook as Barbara s and um, that's mainly where I am, where my activity is, and I post about these, uh, activities too, and also about autism a little bit too, because my daughter is autistic, and it just kind of all goes together too very well.

Amanda: 56:05

We're gonna make sure all that's in, uh, the show notes. We're also going to make sure that's on our website. We keep a running tab of all. All of our guests and where you can find them and everything,

Dr. Barb: 56:16

That's awesome. And should I send you the links to, um, to your, to your email or to, or in like chat on Messenger.

Amanda: 56:25

just uh, send it to my email. That would probably be best. And, um, I will let you know when this comes out. it should,

Dr. Barb: 56:34

you.

Amanda: 56:34

I think if my deal is, my brain is serving me right, it's probably gonna be about April 18th or 25th.

Dr. Barb: 56:42

Sounds good. Thank you so much.

Amanda: 56:45

Thanks so much for coming on, Barb.

Dr. Barb: 56:47

Of course. Have a wonderful, wonderful rest of the Friday and the weekend and uh, thank you so much for having me. It was so awesome to talk about this and now we know we have more work to do,

Amanda: 56:58

Oh yeah, thanks. Uh, can you say bye, Leta. She's like, bye.

Dr. Barb: 57:03

Bye Lida and doggie. It was such a pleasure to see you, to get to know you. You're an amazing young, uh, person and uh, I can't wait to hear more about your adventures too. Right. In dance and not only

Amanda: 57:18

Yeah. Thanks so much for coming on, Barb.

Dr. Barb: 57:21

Thank you. Bye-bye for now. Thank you so much. Bye bye. Bye.

Leta: 57:25

Okay, well thank you for watching the PIT podcast and please subscribe and also look at the Adorable Don't Watch Subscribe for. And also please like, and if you'll, if you'll any of our new podcast and also you see the Adorable Don, you Like It.