Art, Play & Healing: Expressive Therapy for Neurodivergent Minds

Is talk therapy not working for you or your child? Discover how expressive arts therapy—using art, play, and creativity—can unlock healing for neurodivergent minds.

In this episode, therapist Emily Cox shares her expertise in working with autistic, ADHD, and otherwise neurodivergent kids, teens, and young adults. We explore why traditional therapy sometimes falls short, and how creative approaches can make all the difference.

You’ll learn: • What expressive arts therapy is (and how it’s different from art therapy) • Why neurodivergent people may need more than just talk • Real stories of transformation through art, play, and movement • How to find the right therapist for your needs

Want to be a guest on Leta's Tap Styles (And My Autistic Life)? Send Amanda Trisdale a message on PodMatch: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/letastapstylesguest

Visit our website: https://www.letatapstyles.com

Transcript

0:08

I am me. That is my mom. That is person I. And And that is her introduction. Emily, thank you so much for agreeing to be on the podcast today. I am absolutely positively so terrible with introducing our guest. When I read the introduction that AI has clocked me as being, or the computers have clocked me as being an AI generated voice. Do you just living your life turns into AI generated voice. I know, I'm like, I'm not ai. I promise you I'm not ai, but I guess I read it so robotically that it thinks it's ai, It flags you as ai. That's amazing. Do, do you think you might be able to introduce yourself? Sure, I'll do my best shot. Let's see if I get flagged as ai. I'm Emily Cox. I'm a licensed therapist. I've been licensed and practicing for about 12 years now. I mainly work with tweens and teens and young adults with NeuroD. That can spread the whole spectrum of things. And I specialize in using expressive arts and creative interventions outside the realms of traditional talk therapy. So I love talking about neurodivergence autistic needs and then just general strengths and what makes people special and unique in their own special ways. I wish when I was going through all my therapies that they had something more than just talk therapy.'cause talk therapy doesn't necessarily work for the neurodivergent mind. No. Well, and it's also this thing of, and stop me if I go on tangents of like talk therapy was a developed by white men, but also developed for a really specific like subset of humans that it's really effective for, but it's kind of like neurodivergence of like the ones outside of that subset and the ones below that subset, like both of those needs aren't getting met. There's some people who are super highly articulate and highly aware. This happens a lot of time with Neurodivergence. We know what's going wrong, we know what we're doing wrong. We know what's happening. Um, but so like, that's not the problem. Awareness isn't everything. It's like, well, why am I not doing it? Or like, what can I do about it? Like, I want actual tools or like things to do. Like, yeah, sitting and talking about it. I do that all the time in my own brain. Why are we here? And then some were like emotional awareness or like. Uh, emotional effective emotional expression. That's really challenging. It's like, how dare you force me to sit and talk about emotions? That sounds awful. I want to do anything other than that. So like, this is terrible. So it's like not meeting the needs of so many. And I was going through therapy for a very traumatic situation, so I was already on edge. Right, which we even scratch the surface of how like talk therapy or sometimes CBT is like super not the best thing for trauma, just how trauma is encoded our brain. So just to like do a thought record and make it feel better isn't exactly the best way for what trauma needs. So it's a whole other adventure. Oh yeah. I remember my therapist going, why isn't this working? And my scientific mind was like, could I see the journals please? Can you look myself please? Yeah. It turns out that was not the proper thing to say. My parents got called into a meeting. Could be for worse things. But therapy is important, especially for neurodivergent. And neurodivergent, like you said, runs a spectrum. It's not just autism, it's a DHD, it's dyslexia. It's a whole slew of issues that make us not neurotypical, um, which sometimes I know. know With her studio. I get to work with a lot of parents, and I've been an advocate for a while. It makes it hard to find the proper therapies or to get the general practitioner to know which therapy to sign off on. Mm. Definitely a challenge. And it's one of the, like, there's so many cracks in general in our healthcare system and especially our mental healthcare system, but it's one of the most like frustrating and upsetting cracks that like the parents oftentimes have to become these experts in like children and what the children's needs are, and those needs are ever changing, right? So it's not like, well, this is the thing. We found the thing, this is the one thing that worked. And now we'll stick with this thing for the next 20 years. It's like, doesn't work that way. Um, but that like, there are so many gaps in like knowledge or awareness or interventions that a lot of time the effort and the energy and the labor is on the parent and the family to find the need or find the right fit instead of the system coming to them with resources and having it already prepared and kind of ready to go to access. And that's assuming you can even access it once it happens.'cause I know with. Autism. A lot of the parents are like, I have a general practitioner, and I'm like, that's cute. We need to get you with someone who knows what autism is. And they're like, well, didn't my child's pediatrician learn about autism in medical school? One would see her hitting her head. yeah, this is like a total side story, but I dunno if y'all have them where you are. And a lot of school for IEP stuff, it suggested to have a behavioral support plan or BSPI was in the schools for like, I know, maybe eight years. I've never seen A BSP. I've never seen a psychologist do it. I've never seen anyone create it. I've never seen it implemented in the schools. I've never seen an educational school psychologist do it. So it's like, great. You're recommending everyone get A BSP and have a specialized individualized. Behavioral support plan that everyone's aware of on the page and meeting all of kid behavioral needs, it doesn't exist. So writing it as a referral or recommendation is not the most effective for getting all the needs met when it's like, that's beautiful. That sounds great. That sounds like it would be really helpful. What psychologist is out here that's gonna do that? And you have to find like a behavioral psychiatrist to do that, and those are few and far between. Number one. And two, most general pediatricians don't know, like when we her dad's military and we've moved and they're like, okay, so like I can do this. I'm like, could you get me to Developmental Ped, a pediatric neurologist what? And we've had doctors of hers who are like, I've been practicing for 20 years. What are you talking about? Right. and luckily I'd been an advocate for 10 years before we had her, so I was like, this is what I need. You have the perfect skills training for it. And they're like, wait, how do you know this though? Her pediatrician, when we got her diagnosed was just like, I know exactly who you need to go see because you're autistic and you need to go see the autistic developmental pediatrician. And I was like, oh, so he does autism, and she's like. No, he's autistic. He also does autism. But but also this I was like, that's a one I hadn't heard of before. The autistic parent needs to deal with the autistic doc. provider. Yeah. Just go with it. And I have to admit it worked much better for us 'cause we were on the same wavelength Yeah. Everyone is speaking languages now. and he's like, I'm just gonna go ahead and do a three hour, uh. For her.'cause we're gonna go on tangents and we know we're gonna go on tangents. Totally. Um, but that's another thing I wanted to talk to you about because you're a therapist. A lot of what my parents are that I've worked with are like, I have to go with the first therapist. I can't go find one that works for my child that I know with a lot of the insurance I work with. They will let you go get a different therapist, uh, as a therapist. What's your thought process on just going with the one that the doctor puts you with? It is an excellent question and it's a conundrum because it's the scarcity mindset and like model two of like, We need help, we need this as soon as possible. So the pediatrician's giving us this name. we'll call and, okay, the wait list is weeks long. We'll just wait and do it as soon as possible. So I understand the like, urging and behind it. But it's also like where sometimes yes, there's more limitations on like sometimes child providers or affirming providers or gender affirming care providers, that sometimes the accessibility of those providers is not as widespread as like someone who treats anxiety. With that being said, I'm really big on like patient advocacy and people having advocacy for like rightness of fit and care that feels better for them. That means more than one option or more than one choice. that too is like having different styles and accesses of different things that we need. So if we're only being referred to A CBT specialist for depression, but that's not necessarily what our presenting need is, or that it's like, no, we're really having struggles with like hygiene or executive functioning or getting to one place on time, or transitions are really hard for us. We might get some benefit from that CBT specialist, but what would be really helpful for us is someone who can meet us where we are of executive functioning or hygiene or transitions, or give us support that way. so I kind of lean towards having options, having choices, and then seeking out kind of what provider feels like the best fit for each client. That too is like, sometimes when we're in the position of needing help, we're just like, looking for water in a desert. Like, I'll grab anything, Give me anything and I'll try it and I'll just wanna do it. I just wanna get them in as soon as possible. Like, please, please, please help us. But also like. There's a power dynamic that clients can have privilege and power as well of that, like what's gonna be best for the family, what's gonna be best fit for kiddo? What is best for client to engage with and connect with, and kind of fuels the vibe. It may not be the first person on the list, it may not be the third person on the list. Um, it may be something that we weren't looking for at all, but all of a sudden we found this person and they seem to be interesting and we're interested in trying this thing, and we'll go for it. The thing I tell clients too, a lot is that like a lot of clinicians will do consultations before scheduling the first intake. They should be like brief like 10 to 15 minute phone calls just to like make sure that everyone's on the same page and like that things are being met how they should be. The other thing is like if treatment starts, that's not a good fit, then it's an ethical like consideration of the therapist to have. Continuity of care. There we go. So many C's and O's and N's, um, of like transitioning to the next provider. So it's not this like we failed therapy. This sucked. We had to wait so long and it was so terrible. And then they failed this from therapy, but like. Hey, this is not vibing. This is not the best thing. We might like someone else. You know what? It seems like we need a more structured approach. I really would recommend like a DBT specialist for regulation skills. It seems like they would really benefit from that, and that's just not the kind of care that I specialize in, but I recommend these people who are really excellent with it. So like even if we get into a situation that it's not like unicorns and rainbows. That's also a learning experience of like, it doesn't have to be the sky is falling, end all, be all, that we can't transition and still find the help that we need. And there are so many more therapies than when like I was going through it 30, 40 years ago, there was like not many different options of therapies. Um, I tend to think these kids these days are spoiled rotten by how many therapies they have. In a good way, But spoiled by riches. That is important to know and more extending and learning every day. It goes through trends too, right? Like in the early days of psychology as a field, it was all this psychoanalytic, psychodynamic. Lemme talk about your mom, lemme talk about your family. Everything comes from. Well, aren't you really just wanting to hook up with your mother? Like really you're having sexual feelings towards your dad and it's like, Hmm, but yeah, right. Like, but maybe not where my depression is coming from, or like, maybe not where I get anxiety before performances is all connected to that. So. That phase went from there to then more of the analytical CBT. Let's just think through it. Think yourself. Mindset. Mindset, happy, which like similar things. Some people found it really helpful and some people were like, Hmm, this really isn't assessing or really helping me with my like overthinking or anxiety management. Just to like think about it harder. Right now. We're kind of in a trend of like somatic therapy, of like body center kind of connecting E mdr, RIFS, all the abbreviations, which same thing some people find really hopeful and wonderful. Some people are like, how dare you make me feel in my body? I am trying to avoid my body at all costs. But at least there's some choice out there now, guys, because I gotta tell you, the eighties and nineties, the choices were a slim Pickens. They were like, this is the only option And you get this person that everyone else in town sees too. So get ready. Hi. My parents did do the one that the pediatrician told them to take me to. She was the one who went out to all the big events, and I am aging myself. She was the one who did all the school shootings back in the day, and a lot of my friends who were at Columbine High went to her and they're like, she is A-P-T-S-D expert. And she wrote articles. And looking back, I'm like, what were you thinking? Because even as a child, I knew that wasn't working. They're like, that's great for all the PTSD Ts needs, but that might not be what I was going. I was going for PTSD, and I can tell you it was not the way to treat PTSD. It was, we're just gonna get over this, and I'm like, oh, we're just getting over this. At which point did you think this was just a, we get over this situation? it's historically written, you can't get over it, especially when people keep it up. Bridge are getting over it. It's just forgetting its existence and just going. In the dark, passing the darkest corner, which I shall never find. Never ever. You, you mold, uh, autism and my severe need to know everything with, uh, going to therapy for PTSD and them going, okay, well if you can't get past it, here's a pill. And I'm like, can I see the journals? Right. Can I get a reference list? She was like, no, I'm the expert. I'm like, I'm not trying to say you're not. And yeah, my parents were like, might be the expert, but I'm the expert of my own body and what I feel comfortable doing, so. Yeah, And she was not, in any case, didn't her sink every Rev folks. Hopefully they have, again, this is society, so definitely not I. Since then, they have determined talk therapy may not be the best way to get over PTSD. Oh, it's not like everybody would like to just forget that trauma, not bring up the trauma. That's probably also giving them depression and thinking, yeah, maybe I'll just die. Hmm. I also got told because it, I had only wound up. Coming up with the plan, that it wasn't suicidal tendencies because I'd only written down the plan and had gone to do the plan. And so they told my parents, that's not suicidal tendencies. And I'm like, I get you are the biggest name and PTSD at the moment, but well, I dunno if you know anything about Bessel VanDerKolk, but he was, he wrote, body Keeps Score and he was the biggest name and stuff for a while, but then all of his stuff came out. about like sexual harassment and assault of his like, um. Subordinates. Yeah. And so it's like, doesn't matter how like specialized or expert you are, although I made that face because I'm just horrified of how many stories I hear of like people who are actively sharing, like endorsing suicidal ideation or suicidal plans or thoughts and means and people are like, nah, you're just faking it. You're just doing it for attention. I was friends with Dylan Ki and Eric, Mm. Wow. and Dylan was one of her clients. Wow. And I'm sitting there going, you did it. And my parents were like, well, I mean, Dylan was just beyond saving. And I'm like, but how bad do you have to be Right, when you didn't notice he was going to do that? right. Also the, like this whole, whole thing of duty to warn of, like, and it's huge in schools now too, among like school counselors of taking it super duper seriously and kind of erring on the side of having over caution versus under caution because it's like, well, if we have a client in our office, or if someone isn't indicating this, even if they're just, you know, being 12 and saying inappropriate things, but like, no. Serious words have serious consequences, and then serious talks are gonna happen from them because it's like, well, you're gonna tell me that we're gonna do that. We need to have these talks, and we need to be somewhere that we are safe and everyone else is gonna be safe too. Oh, Dylan was fine. He was just cutting himself is what she told his parents. Wow. And I as a teenager was like, I don't trust them. And if you don't trust your provider, you're not getting very No, you're not getting anywhere. But I was interested 'cause like I, um, you do arts and crafts and a lot more than just the talkie talkie part of all this. And that is something that is newer. I was not brought up on it. Obviously we were in the dark ages of, uh, psychiatry when I was doing all this. How is that accepted by some of the parents that are bringing their kids? Are they like, oh, you're just doing arts and crafts? Are you even helping my child? Excellent question. Um, also caveat, I'm in Asheville, North Carolina, which is a very like mountain hippie, crunchy granola community. So I probably get a response that might not be typical in everywhere else in the nation. But most of the time, honestly, the people who are seeking me out for the expressive art support have tried traditional talk therapy and have found it lacking or have found like, eh, it was okay. Like I talked to them. But like, I don't really vibe with them or like, I wasn't really into it. So like they're kind of seeking something other than that in the first place. So they don't come to it with a sense of like distrust or uncertainty or like, why am I here? What am I doing? Um, so they're usually seeking it out for a reason and they're kind of interested and driven to learn more about it. Sometimes too, I tie in a lot of like expressive arts and trauma work because I found it really frustrating that a lot of people doing like direct care with kiddos or like really traumatized kiddos, um, have this thing of like, well, they're resistant. Well, they're not talking in session. Well, they're not compliant. Well, they're not sharing. It's like, well, we, have we done anything nonverbal? Have we done anything with play? Have we done anything with art? And why that's important, is that like developmentally. Elementary age, younger kiddos, their languages play. They're not sitting down and going, well, I had a sense of disgust today. So then I did some inner introspection and thought about it some more. And really that sense of disgust is coming from my own insecurity. But where, no, there's six and they wanna talk about unicorns. And they wanna play around and be bluey and swing on the swings. So like, if you're not gonna meet them where they're, and you're expecting them to sit in a room, I can't sit in a room for an hour half the time, and I'm like a full a human. So how can I expect a little human to do it? Like their language is playing. I was around that age when they were wanting me to do talk therapy and it was, looking back, I'm like, what were you thinking? Even when I was 10, 11, 12 talk therapy wasn't, It's just not the fit. Some kiddos, there are some specific ones that really like it, but sometimes it's just not the best. It's not where we are developmentally, it's not what is helpful for us. So that's where kind of like the expressive arts, kind of more creative interventions can be really helpful. The play therapy side of it is like you can meet with them and the level of play and language of play, there are therapeutic interventions with it, but like sometimes parents sit in sessions and I tell them, I'm like, it's gonna look really boring. Like, you're welcome to play on your phone or like read whatever, because like this is going to be extremely boring for you and look like I'm just doing this. But like actually there's therapeutic like tracking and parallel play and connection and assessment going on while kiddo is like doing certain things. The thing with the expressive arts is like, it gives us ways of communication that don't have to be verbal, which can unlock so many things for so many different kinds of kids. So, you know, meeting with a stranger and being like, hi, nice to meet you. Can I tell, ask you all these horrible questions about everything horrible? That what, not everything that you're insecure about or not sure about, or get in trouble for at home or at school. Tell them, tell me all about them right now. Like, I would hate that. I would hate that now as an adult. I hated that as a kid and like, it's not fun or enjoyable. So to be like, okay, like let draw me what your family looks like. Draw me your house. Okay. If you were a magic fairy, where would you live? If we were a sailboat in the middle of the ocean, what would our sailboat look like? Like those are all jumping off points that we're still engaging therapeutically, we're still getting therapy done, but it doesn't have to be that like what you see on tv, sitting on couches, maintaining eye contact, having back and forth conversations. It's much more collaborative and then it's much more. Of like kind of clients driving what they need and then me just like reflecting and supporting and then pointing out like strengths or themes or patterns. And maintaining eye contact is not something neurodivergent people like to do without trauma in there. Mm-hmm. And I know the more I even, three decades removed from the trauma, if I'm talking about the trauma, I need to be fiddling with something. And all of my therapists were like, no, you need to be sitting with your hands quietly in your lap looking me straight on while you're talking about it. More trauma. I feel like trauma with trauma just makes depression and then more drama. There are some kids my age who believe that therapy costs half of our trauma. That's understandable. of your trauma. I think the trauma you had would've gone away quicker if you didn't get the trauma from therapy. I'm pretty sure little trauma wasn't because of therapy, is one of the reasons I was interested in the, because play therapy is a lot newer and the arts therapy and the idea that you're bringing these. It's just amazing to me. of not giving them more trauma on top of the trauma. Yeah, that's the goal. To lessen the trauma. Also like what you're saying of like, there used to be this focus on like you have to describe it in every detail, and they've done some research of like. That that's actively re-traumatizing and like lights up area of the brain that is like, can put people into flashbacks or have people have some of the somatic symptoms similar to what they experienced at the initial trauma. Um, I also use EMDR, which is a kind of a somatic method, but one of the things I love about EMDR as a modality is that you don't have to, like in T-F-C-B-T, there's this huge, so people are like T-F-C-B-T, it's great with kids. It's uh, evidence-based. It's wonderful. It has this emphasis on the trauma narrative and the kids have to write one out or draw one out or whatever. One thing about EMDR is that you don't have to go into detail. You don't have to talk about it. You don't have to write about it. You don't have to do whatever. It's all like an internal. Like, um, your internal like determination of distress and you kind of work on like decreasing that distress through the bilateral stimulation, but it's not like, hi, tell me your horror story. Let's get into every detail of all the things that happen, because for the majority of people, that's not helpful. And then it's like, okay, we're opening the bullet wound. Raping off the scab and letting it bleed everywhere and then saying, we've hit our time. Have a great week. Bye. Like, how is that helpful for anyone? Or like beneficial to treatment versus like, hi, we can like, you know, start on these things. Where are we having the distress? And then kind of adjust it in a different way that doesn't have to be so like confrontational or icky. And they had me going to a therapist, a psychiatrist, and a psychologist, all at the same time on the same week, all with 90 minute sessions. The medication has its check. And top of Well, no, And top of trauma. Only freaking place that belongs, which is just one place, you know? she, the places. yeah, she's heard, uh, they just kept increasing, like my antidepressants and my anxiety. Back when I was in it, it was, let's keep increasing your Paxil, which now giving Paxil to a teenager, you know, they'd beside eye everyone. Right. And looking back going, hi. Did you guys know that the, uh, papers on how bad it was came out while you were prescribing it to me? At what point did you have no excuse? Yeah. Boomers, you have no excuse. Okay. Most of my therapists were boomers and silent generations. So you can get that. rights, But I think that's one of the things that I'm so interested about the new ways you guys are doing things, is that it's so different than how the silent generation and the boomers looked at it even within. The mental health field.'cause looking back, I still question, it's like, why did you come into mental health if you didn't? I do believe a few of them didn't believe mental health was really a thing Mm-hmm. or they were all students of Freud. I'm also pretty sure a few of them did not like children and. Teenagers, young adults. I have unfortunately interacted with a lot of providers who work with children who do not seem to like or understand or have any interest in children, which is like, you don't have to be a full on like kindergarten teacher, like rainbows come out of your everywhere every time you speak. But like, if you actively dislike children, maybe try something else. You know what? If you go into a field with children and don't like children, how about just. Go into a, You had one speech therapist, you actually did tell me she went into pediatrics speech 'cause that's where the money was. But she did not like pediatrics. And I'm sitting there going, What a reassuring thing. It was like other places to make she was trying to argue with me because I was trying to get her kicked out of her other position on the school university as a professor.'cause I'm like, you do not need to be teaching. out. Mm-hmm. She. Get kicked out.'cause I, I was talking to the dean going, uh, I don't my mother's wrath. bless her little heart. Uh, she was. Uh, she had a speech therapist that because of some of her sensory issues with food and texture issues with food was like, oh, we're just gonna. Force her to eat this, and I'm like, her food issues are junk food and I am fine with this, You're like, this actually works out for me. See, it I got respect. Yeah. Little me was more concerned 'cause it was speech and language pathology. She has an auto processory disorder. She was not fully speaking at the time and I'm like, I also couldn't do ours. Right. you right. I'm sitting there as a parent going, not trying to be mean, but she is where we can't understand her speaking and you are more concerned about her learning how to eat pizza. One of these seems like a life problem. Oh, and we were living in New Mexico. interesting. I, I may have gone to the dean because she was with UTEP and it was the UTEP teaching. Uh, and so she was training all the new SLPs and I called the dean up and went, we need to have a discussion yesterday 'cause you've got a problem. We need to have a talk And she's like, well, he's not gonna respect you 'cause you just have a PhD. And I'm like, one, I know your dean and two PhDs are, and she's like, well, my son's getting. Physics degree, and he's just now doing calculus. And I'm like, well, is he a freshman? And she's like, no, he's a senior in doing, uh, advanced calculus. Shouldn't have you done that as a freshman? And I'm like, he's doing Hmm. Advanced is a 400 level class. You have to have calc one, two and three plus dq, plus linear plus numbers, plus abstract before you get to advance. And she was like, no, no. That's just like high school out calculus. Right. That Doom Child No, But she was definitely, she had gotten her degree in the seventies and I'm like, also, probably not in the state that she was in. No. she went to University of Kansas, I knew that person wasn't from New Mexico uh, and you were on, if you are saying you're supposed to eat pizza in New Mexico, I'm just saying you're not from that state. There's like barely any pizza places there in a few pizza places. leave to go to. next door that is in Texas. Trauma therapy is a thing. Um, it should not be a thing. Uh, but yeah, it. That's her best ot and I loved her for it. Did a very play-based ot and she said, what? You said this is gonna be boring. And I was like taking notes from the observation window going, okay. Yeah, no, that's interesting. Where did you find this?'cause this is working. right. Um, 'cause like she was having major issues with gross motor skills and the OT was like, well, let's go put up a cool, um, obstacle course for her to do. Mm-hmm. And then like, what? And she's like, let's do that. And then talking to her through it and her OTs like, this looks boring. And I'm like, no, this actually looks cutting edge to me. Just bear with me as I'm taking notes. And she's like, most parents are like, this looks boring. How are you working on? Because it was also for her eye tracking. And I'm like, okay, you gotta walk me through this 'cause this looks amazing that you were using clay versus sitting there and like making her run through the lines, which are boring as heck for a 7-year-old. Yep. And that's where like even the art therapy, 'cause uh, it's probably boring to everyone else. I'm just amazed that the therapies work. the thing of like, I do expressive arts therapy, which is technically different than art therapy, but the main difference is expressive art therapies is kind of, it's kinda like neurodivergence of like, it's an umbrella. So it can be narrative, it can be dance, it can be sound, it can be music, it can be. Um, drawing. It can be clay, it can be all these things, but the focus with expressive arts is about like the creative process itself and not the product at the end. So art therapy itself is like, there's all these registrations and training and like certifications you can do for art therapy. It's wonderful and amazing. It focuses more on the end product and like, this line means this, and this color means this, and this color here means this. Whereas the expressive arts is more about like the act of creativity and then like whatever. That we kind of don't throw away the end product, but more of like, we're not focusing on like, ah, the tree isn't exactly how the tree I wanted to look, but more of like, was it helpful for us to make the tree? What are the roots of the tree look like? What are the leaves of the tree looks like? Do you have other birds in the tree? Kind of that stuff of like, we're talking to our own strengths and what I really enjoy about it is like it's super flexible, so it's like there's a kiddo that is not, you know. Talking is not the fun activity or that like they don't wanna sit in a room with a stranger. Understood. Like, got it. That you know, we can sit and we can draw, we can sit and we can color, we can draw our superheroes, we can draw our anger monsters, we can draw all these certain things that then we talk about and it's kind of like a jumping off point. And we're still communicating and expressing and like trying the creative ex avenues and outlets without having it to be like, now you must draw now. See, I, I kind of thought the end product, and this is what I had a discussion with that one, SLP over was. To get through the therapy and have what we went to therapy worked on. Right. So let me thinking that was the end product. You forgot. They were also trying to work on my dyslexia while being across a six inch table while having their arms across behind them and trying to make me read something I could not see. I couldn't even see the picture. Well, me being nonverbal at six. That sounds challenging. it was, and she's like, she's not I wondered why I cried Well, that's my thing too, of like to pull me back there. understandable why people have difficult experiences or challenging experiences, or it's like, well, they're non-compliant. Well, they're resistant. Well, they're, A lot of kiddos get slapped with this diagnosis of ODD, oppositional defiant disorder, which also discriminately like is overdiagnosed with neurodivergent kiddos as well. The issue with ODD is that it's often the precursor diagnosis for conduct disorder, which is also off. So the pre like. Precurring diagnosis for antisocial personality disorder, which, you know, kind of sets up this whole thing towards like institutionalization and like, not really helping people, but more like demonizing and like, um, making things worse than they are for people versus like, are we defiant or are things not meeting our needs? Are we oppositional or is the world really overwhelming and challenging and this is really frustrating and this is how we express our frustration? Are we like. Defiant of all things, or do we have like a pervasive need for autonomy? Like all those kind of different things of how you frame it is like, well, if we're just being like they're resistant and they're not engaging, and dude, how dare you not look at this teeny tiny thing as I stretch my arm out as zero as a small child and it's tiny letters and we don't know and I don't like you any way, and you smell weird. Like they're just not engaging in therapy. They're just not a good client. Like that's not helpful for everybody. big Teeny tiny teen. They were that big. I was the mean mom and I decided that could be handled by another person. So I called her ophthalmologist and went, Hey, you'll never believe what's going on. Sarah walked across town and got labeled as ODD, and antisocial behavior by the SLP, and she is like one of us. Is an ophthalmologist. I can be introverted if I wanna be introverted, and it's so. Mm-hmm. Sarah was trying to explain how dyslexia is, you know, a neurodivergent issue, plus you have the eye issues and the speech. And language pathologist was like, no, that's not what dyslexia is. And she's like, what did they teach you in the seventies? I'm like, I also would like to know that. Okay. There is a thing too of like that kind of an older school of thought or sometimes people just have a more bridges school of thought of like, it focuses it more of like, they're not trying or like they need to push through. They're not trying hard enough and it's like, no, no, no. Like the brain isn't processing the information or like the information isn't. Filtering the same way as it is for neurotypicals or this person or that person. So it's like, it's not that they're not trying hard enough or that they're stupid or lazy or silly or dumb, it's that the world is not built to like have the successful outcomes that is easier for other people. So it's like instead of being like, you suck and need to try harder, it's like what can the world do to make this more accommodating for this human? Like I said, I was the terrible parent that just went and got the ophthalmologist and went, you go do with. Right. you know what, El least that was better than that time where they really had an argument with your 6-year-old over what your last name is. Because it not MS. Run's Ms. Still. I don't give a damn what you think. I know what legal stuff is. I don't care that you were born in the seventies. This is the 21st century. think you're echoing slightly, but yeah, no, uh, that's the expressive art therapy, I am guessing does not. Have this as the results. Sometimes. I meant the like trauma that she's still talking about Oh yeah. The good thing about expressive arts too is that a big piece of it is like consent. As it should be for all therapies really, of like consent to treatment, consent to care. But it's always are we open to trying this? Are we curious about this? Are we interested in this? Would we like to draw today? this happens in play therapy too, of like, there's um, like openings built in for no, or change or transition. at any point if we're like, Nope, that's too much. Same thing with like how certain talk therapies are set up, like EMDR. it's not this expectation of You know, person tell me everything. Client divulge everything. But more of like what we are comfortable sharing, what we are drawn to share, what we are curious to talk about. If there's things that feel icky and not comfortable to talk about and we don't have the distress tolerance to or cope, that's okay. We don't have to go there. So it's not this pressure to like keep picking or keep opening or keep digging, but more of like, okay, as long as we are comfortable with this and we are comfortable talking about it, if we don't wanna talk about it, we don't wanna share it. We don't wanna sign our drawing. That's allowed, you are allowed to say no or to transition at any time. So it's this thing of like hopefully not setting up more trauma or more like abuser, like child, you have to draw or else it's always set up of like a conversation because that builds a skill too, of like there are so many things in life that we might not enjoy, we might not wanna do, or that we. Or feeling uncomfortable with, but it's like, stop. I don't wanna do this. And we can have a conversation around it instead of just like, no, you have to get your shoe on or da da You know, there's certain things where that needs to happen and we can't have a full on like come to Jesus conversation, but like therapy should be the play space that we're working in to practice those like practical skills. Practical skills are important, but. That consent, that respect. Enough to consent. You wanted to say something? minutes. She's my little producer over there. Um, I cannot believe it's already been 42 minutes, Emily. this to go out, but we have Anothering after this, so if you want this, we go out. You she. She has found her calling for when she grows up, she can just become so detail oriented. I love it. Um, we have enjoyed having you on, Emily. If you don't mind, we would love to have you on again. back on the podcast, I would love to have me clearly, I off on tangent, off things you have out, If you haven't noticed, blah, blah. warn people both. is happening. definitely wanna hear more about. Where can people find you on social choice and also the thing you do and work for on socials? Has my spiel down. Yeah, I love it. The best place people can find me is larksburg therapy.com. It's L-A-R-K-S-P-U-R therapy. Uh, my Instagram I think is larksburg therapy, NC, uh, but yeah, that's the best place to find me. Uh, I think all my contact info, my email is there, so if anyone has any questions or kind of is like, wait, what's more about this? Or like, how do I find an EMDR provider in my area? Or how do I find someone who specializes in expressive art? So my area, feel free to like reach out by email, um, and we can kind of get you connected to what best resources are out there. And since we're definitely having you on again, uh, on the link that this is gonna be on, on Facebook or, uh, tiktoks, feel free to like. Add questions for Emily on there, for the next one She's not that hard to make things. Go quick and wells not that hard we did. Uh, but yeah, I definitely enjoyed having you on. I am, like I said, this new generation and they should be spoiled.'cause the They deserve it. you're Yeah. And the therapies you're drink from a house. alpha has so many issues. Mm-hmm. I can't drink from a house. Someone needs to start studying what COVID restrictions did to these kiddos. Ah, You may nail all the ones, right? And like the younger ones. kindergartners this. year I don't think are gonna be that bad. the kindergartners the last four years have been wild. Yes. Well, and she was a I'm Cho liver. Because apparently there's only kindergartens because apparently Jen Alpha was born into COVID. So like the rest of us were like eight, not like eight, seven. So singing, going into COVID, I think a lot of the elder alphas kind of feel unseen with the COVID thing, I younger gen. Um, and I know with her, uh, she was still in physical therapy, occupational therapy and speech therapy and all those. Went online for three months, try doing physical therapy over Zoom, right. So and then when they put her back, Fair enough. so if you're looking, I really do want someone to study these kids 'cause uh, I think they all need trauma therapy. Thank you Emily for coming on the podcast. It's helpful. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Um, and we will talk to you later. Okay, have a good one. Thanks y'all. bye. Okay, well thank you for watching the podcast and please subscribe and also look at the Adorable, don't You watch, subscribe Forward and also please like, and don't pick it if you'll to us, if you'll miss any of our new podcast. And also you see the Adorable, don't you like it?