Kenneth Mims on Building Schools with Love for Neurodivergent Kids

Kenneth Mims, founder of NERC (Neurodiversity Education Research Center) and author of "The Mother's Guide to Autism," joins Amanda and Leta to talk about what's broken in autism education — and what love, science, and smaller learning environments can fix. From his journey as a physics teacher discovering autism through a strength-based lens, to founding a private STEM school for neurodivergent students in Phoenix, Ken shares why parents are the real experts, why IEPs often fail families, and how research can drive real change. Plus, Leta weighs in on therapists, geologists, and why scientists have no survival instincts.

Links:

• Kenneth Mims: https://kennethmimsii.wixsite.com/mysite
• Leta Tap Styles Podcast: https://www.letatapstyles.com
• Want to be a guest on Leta's Tap Styles (And My Autistic Life)? Send Amanda Trisdale a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/letastapstylesguest

Transcript

0:08

All right, Leta, do you think you can introduce a podcast? I that my mom, dad's human being, we are good. Um, Kenneth, that is Leta's version of introducing people on the podcast. Um, thank you so much for coming on Leta's Tap Styles and My Autistic Life. I would introduce you, but the computer AI systems are convinced when I introduce our guests that I must also be ai. So do you mind introducing yourself? So this gets labeled as, you know, like actual human content. Oh yeah, no problem. No problem. Uh, Ken Mims, um, I'm the founder of NERC Neurodiversity Education Research Center. We operate a private middle school STEM school for students who are neurodivergent, um, and based out of Phoenix, Arizona. And, um, been an educator about 25 years. And, um. Just became passionate about autism and neurodiversity and, um, it has been a, a, a wonderful, wonderful experience, you know, over my, over my career, both, um, well, I can't just say wonderful, it's, it is been an experience, but it's, I've been grateful and thankful, uh, both personally and profess. It is rare to hear someone go, I am. Dealing with autism education and not the next words out of their mouth being like, I work with public schools and I deal with IEPs. So can you explain a little bit more about what your schools are all about? I. Oh Lord. Okay. That's a good question. That's that's a mom's question. That's a veteran. That's a veteran's question right there, because. Um, you know, I have a story. You know, I've been in education for 25 years and I was, it wasn't until I, I was in a, a meeting, um, with a parent who had a child who's autistic, a mom specifically, and, you know, I was a science teacher. My background was in physics, so I, I love science. I'm just going over everything, the data and the test scores, and, and the mom just, you know, just was, wasn't impressed and she just looked at me and said. Yeah, this is nice, Mr. Meson, but I took my child to the movie theater over the weekend, and their child may have been in 10th grade and, you know, I'm, you know, I took my child to the movie theater and gave 'em $10 or $20 to see how they would, you know, respond by pro, you know, purchasing the ticket. And when they gave the, the person at the counted the money, they, their child just skipped off. And, and the mom just looked at me like, you know, I'm, I'm concerned about, you know, like transitioning into adulthood. Like, and I just was at first as an educator. You know, I just was like, I don't know. Like we, I just realized as educators, we're disconnected from reality. We're in our own, you know, you know, reality, but really to understand what a parent needs, what a mom needs, what a child needs, and it just made me realize that, oh, there's a disconnect. And being more, having more empathy, understanding a desire or respect of valuing. You know, love, you know, those type of things is really needed. And unfortunately within the machine, the matrix or whatever you wanna call 'em, bureaucratic systems, you know, public schools, unfortunately, it just doesn't permit that. I mean, and so, you know, um, when we talk about specifically the special education where you have indi individualized education plans that are federally governed, you know, uh, you know, their, their legal contracts, um. You know, I think school systems I've found is more concerned about, you know, the legality and so that creates, you know, a host of other challenges. If you don't have legal representation or you don't have, you know, a posture that you, you know, understand the law, that you can get a lawyer, you know, it's just, it's um, it's a lot of injustice going on, unfortunately. But more importantly, from my standpoint, there's a lot of potential in the, in the lives of children. You know, that are just not being reached due to, um, a current model, you know, in, in school systems. So I, uh, used my teacher retirement and, uh, created a, um, created a school, you know, that I just thought, you know, was good work from research based, you know, um, models that I've, you know, observed and used over the years. And the foundation is, um, a micro school model, a smaller learning. Smaller learning environment that's just positive and, and just has love. look like you had something to. A, and I couldn't tell. I was fak. And all my dance teachers kind sought this process. Why? That's a plus I would've helped my life severely. It made me feel less creeped out because I over set boundaries, always using my mail name. Why? Yeah. You know, but it's, but I have a unique journey though. I have a unique journey, you know, you know, so everybody just doesn't have, you know, certain experiences to put 'em in a position to, to connect the dots and see. But yeah, you, you, you're right. You're absolutely right. You mentioned two things and then I wanna get into your journey. Um. Uh, potential of kids and love and Lita has never had an IEP 'cause I was definitely the mom going, let me remove her from the system.'cause I've worked with the system too long on the, uh, and um, I work with getting IEP straightened for military families across the country and people are like, I bet it's better in this state. And I'm like, no, no, it is not. Oh But it is rare to hear. Any educator say the potential and love and respect these kids, they get so in the weeds on, oh my gosh, I have to follow this. IEP. I think sometimes they fail to see the children child in front of them. Um, how has coming at it from a different perspective of coming at it from. The love perspective changed how you're approaching education. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when I discovered, so I, I got exposed to autism from a, from a science standpoint, I was a science teacher. Had a kid ask a high level question. I'm like, oh, who's this? Who's this guy? You know? Then I found out he was diagnosed with autism, never heard of it before. Started studying, you know, autism. Um. While I was working on a master's degree, so I became science, I became what they call broad field certified. I'm able to, I became certified to teach every science subject in every grade level, but I was doing research for some of my classes on autism, and I discovered that the characteristics reminded me of myself, but also my peers in the physics community, like my professors, my graduate students. And so later on I realized years later I realized like I was exposed to autism from a strength based perspective. Which is totally different from the average child or family or individual. And so autism is presented as a deficit or a disability and you know, and a weakness. And, but I didn't see it like that. And so that kind of distorted my perception of reality in a good way because, you know, I saw like potential, I saw value, you know, and I just was like, and I just, just, I just saw something. And so, um. You know, I, I think that's, that, that's one of the, the biggest things. But from a, from a IEP standpoint, and, and, and, and you're right. Um, you know, I feel, I feel I have reservations of saying it as an educator, it's almost like a gang where you don't say certain, you know, you're not supposed to say certain things. I'm sure that you kind of feel that way when you're in IEP meetings with teachers. It's just, it's like, you don't say, you don't just, you know, but you know. I don't know. You know, so from a professional standpoint and a per, I think my personal, my personal life, you know, you know, created that. But, um, yeah, there's some, there's, there's some opportunities to change some things on a, on a, a legislative standpoint, on a policy standpoint to, from, you know, that that will open up, you know, some doors and, and change some systematic things when it, specifically, when it comes to autism. And you know, and I could talk about that for hours. Uh, we will probably have to have you back on to talk about that for hours. Yeah. this one's gonna sound weird, but coming from a physics and math, math blah, physics and math background, myself. Um, I know we used to joke as a few people found out I was autistic, had been diagnosed with autism and A DHD Young. They're like, oh, you're neurodivergent. And I'm like, no, you need to go see people.'cause I think you're so much like me. You are not neurotypical. And uh, the joke used to be that if you were neurotypical, you were the weird one out in our physics department. There, there. Um, how. Uh, did being around, like you said, you were around all these physicists, how did that kind of change your perspective when like you started realizing, oh, these guys are all not normal. We're just all our own version of weird. Yeah. Yeah. So there used to be a saying, um, it's not rocket science. Right? You know, I don't know if you remember that like, so. But I used to, in my mind, I used to be like, well, I'm a physicist. Like, this is just how, you know, I think I just think in a certain way. And so I just, I, I kind of like, just, I, I don't know. I just, I, I didn't, how can I say? I just thought I was a scientist. I didn't think I was, you know, nor divergent or had, you know, any social emotional, like, you know, delays or, or, or, or areas of growth, you know, blah, blah, blah. So, you know, I mean, 'cause I talk, I was talking to somebody about like, you know, scientists that study light, if you look at like, um, Einstein Study light or like George Washington Carver studied a peanut their whole life. Their whole life. And then if you just look at the average researcher, like, you know, you know, take me physics. I mean, they're just studying like the most minute detail their whole life. You know, the wiring of the mind, the brain is, is, is, you know, you know, it's not a weakness. I just didn't look at it like a weakness. I looked at it as, as, I don't wanna say superpower, 'cause that's kind of cliche now, but it, it, it, it's a strength. It's a huge strength. And so I just saw the value in it. So, so, yeah. But, but when you start to look at like, outside of like professional, uh, capacities outside of like work, you start looking at like social and emotional stuff like. Re responses to like marriage and, and dating and, you know, that type of stuff. You, you can quickly see, you know, some triggers that, that, that, that, you know, show like the, the other side of, of these gifts, I used to joke with my husband's professors 'cause he's trained in geology and they would be sitting there going, we're normal. And I'm like, you guys study rocks for a people like rocks. Your people keep stopping on the side of the road for rocks. Your people would literally jump off of a cliff for rocks. Everybody else decided, and it's like if your friends drop off of a cliff, would you jump off of Cliff and decided the same thing to here is don't jump off of a cliff just because you want to look at the pointy rocks. It's not gonna die. I never thought about it from that perspective. rocks. Yeah, I never thought about it. Just they love looking at rocks. That's, that's funny. Uh, we were out with his professor one day looking for ash.'cause that was my husband still of taking me on. Our first date was, Hey, I've gotta go do a field study. You wanna come Hey, hey. like, and everyone in his department's like, oh, that's a great first date. And I'm like, guys, this is not normal outside of science. Hey, do you wanna come to my, uh. Help me do my field study, not normal. And they're like, it it is right? Hey. his professor like just was gung-ho and super excited and acting like a little kid.'cause he had figured out he had been wrong. And I'm like, you know, normal people, 'cause I've dealt with normal people, they're not super excited when they find out they've been wrong.'cause now they have all these new papers to write. Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny you say that. I mean, so the science for me was just like the glue. I, I wouldn't be, I would have went down this path, you know, particularly, you know, focused on students who are divers. But it's, it's, it's, it's science, the commonality. You know, I love science. The students love science. You know, we had a common love and that just is what, you know, just provided a solid foundation. And, um, and that's what keeps things going. You know, this, this love, this curiosity. I did wanna touch a little bit on, you've got a new book out on, uh, the Mother's Guide to Autism, which being a scientist. It is slightly different than like some of the books I was given when she was a kid that I'm like, these are great kindling that were like, you need to mourn your child 'cause they will never be perfect. I'm sorry, breathing? Living thing in front of everybody's lives. It is very much breathing and living. And if that's our child, then that's ghost, and then we have to question whether or not the child is haunted. Now, It. it was more. that your child's not neurotypical and where I was like, yay, she's neurodivergent. I can handle this. Yeah. You know, most parents, their first. Time, sometimes even really hearing the word autism except outside of like the Good Doctor or whatever new autistic character there is on not accept that, whatever the hell that is. We just do not accept its existence. So if you say teaching show, no. No. Not in any part of that department. No, not on the doctor part. Not on the autisms part. Not on the doctor part. We ignore that existence. She's heard me get upset at people who are like, oh, I've watched The Good Doctor, or, oh, I've watched the Big Bang Theory. I now know all about autism. No. No, you don't anymore on. Yeah. Um, I've referenced, um, I've referenced, um, what was it, the Big Bang, but, uh, young Sheldon in a, in a, in a talk that I did, I referenced it. And so a young Sheldon, they really didn't get into anything, you know, but it, it highlighted, you know, some, some social emotional gaps. But, but, you know, he was bright. Um, and so I just highlight the aspect.'cause people don't know that autism has nothing to do with, uh, intellectual, like iq, you know? Like they, you know, and, and really nobody really, they don't, people don't really get that. And so, and actually some people. Can have, you know, on average, above average iq, you know, and, um, so that's a, that's a, that's a, that's an interesting piece that you know, that, that people don't know. So I don't know. It's, we still have a long ways to go. What would you want a mom to know of? A kid who's coming, they've just got that diagnosis and their child is possibly crazy like my husband. And playing with rocks and stopping in the middle of the street to look at rocks Yeah. Yeah. or they're, you know, a physicist and they can't stop discussing how atoms can be split. Um, and they're concerned about their child. Yeah. What? She's laughing 'cause she's had. Parents go this way and she's like, your kid might become a scientist. just get over it. be more concerned if it becomes a scientist, because then it'll die quicker because they have no sense life. And we'll just die quicker if comes to scientists. Just try to make sure it doesn't make up a scientist. You shall be good. All the scientists she knows are research scientist and They every freaking Tuesday and Monday and Wednesday and freaking every day Well, of them are, yeah, they don't end up in the grave, I'll be nah, I, I, I know. Listen, but I agree. I actually agree with what you're saying. You know, I, you know, coming from the educator standpoint and talking to all that stuff, and then realizing, talking with moms like you, you really need to focus on that social emotional piece that you need to focus on that living piece. You know, like, like just real life, like school is fine, it's great, but it's not particularly kids who are, you know, who are autistic and nor diversion that need that social emotional development and support. You, you can't, you can't get it from school. So that's where, you know, going back to like that public school model and no form or fashion, does public school provide, I mean, listen, I mean, just be honest. It's, it's unsafe, you know, we look at the stories, you know. It's, it's traumatic, it's traumatizing. Just the thought of going to school for many is like, from this, it's what we watch. It is. Unfortunately, that's the reality of, of this day and time. Right? And so from an individual who needs support socially, emotionally, like that, that, that, that environment is, you know, is not the place. But I'm just saying, the point I'm just trying to say is for mothers, right? You know, first of all I would say, you know, um, you know. I don't wanna say there's hope, but, but I, I do have to say that because many times, you know, this aspect, you know, like information that's presented is, is, is, is, uh, like the end, you know? Um, and it's, and it's challenging. Um, but staying positive, being around good people, people that believe, you know, that's probably one of the biggest thing I found with, with parents, with moms. And that was the purpose of the book. You know, just that belief, you know, believe in your child. Find people that believe in them, you know, you know, cancel out the noise. Um, and um, and, um, you know, look at, I look at moms as superheroes and the reason why I say that is because there's battles, you know, and, and parents and moms many times are on that front line battling. And so the book is just meant to be a guide, support to identify, you know, those challenges. And just provide, you know, uh, inspiration and tools. But, um, but yeah, just hope, um, strength because it is a battle. And sometimes, yeah, you gotta kick butt, but at the same time, you know, you, you, you all that fighting, you, you gotta, um, you, you gotta rest Also, you gotta, you can't be in that kind of fight all the time. And is that you, you said something that was so, you know, right on. And this is what I say, and I think if, if you're in a situation like with school or public schools and it's just, you know, and it's not the right fit and you're advocating and arguing for your rights, sometimes it's just best to leave. Because if you're always fighting for what's right, you may just be dealing with the wrong being, the wrong relationship. You, you know what I mean? I was, uh, she was in private school even by when we got really upset 'cause she had a private school that kept losing her. And I'm like, I am paying too much money for you to lose my I mean, I only almost got hit by a car four times. I'm still alive. They also may have accidentally left her behind at the New Mex, Southern New Mexico State Fair. They forgot they had her. Oh wow. Oh wow. And I am definitely, I mean, having fought for other people's kids, I'm like, and I will remove her for my sanity and she can be homeschooled. And people were like, I got rib in treats though. A small town, the sheriff's department was called and they called me going, we have Leta and we have hot her hyped up on sugar. Do you want her back? And I'm like, this seems like a you consequence now. At that. But she was nonverbal, so it was lucky that the sheriff's department knew exactly who she was. Ooh. Oh yeah. Oh. Because the magician they had left her with was traveling into the area and he's like, does anyone know who this kid belongs to? Um, but If forgot, they left me on stage. They, they looked down, it was time to leave. They forgot she was on stage doing stuff and left and. I've talked to other parents who would be, were like, well, I would be upset, but I don't think I would have gone, okay, well I guess we're homeschooling. And I'm like, you have that choice. You can move. Yeah, you have a choice, you know, and that's the beautiful thing about. You know, more and more, you know, you know, every day, you know, just having that choice, you know? Um, yeah. And homeschool. do think sometimes moms get overwhelmed and they've got so many people who claim they're experts Yeah. and they may not be experts. And then I'll talk to the mom and go, have they seen this paper or this paper?'cause of course I go down the rabbit hole of papers. If you're gonna tell me something, there's a paper out there for me to double check you on. Yeah. And the moms are like, but I can't. They're the teachers. I have to do what the teachers want. Um. And I'm coming from totally outside the educational world, uh, little academia, but I'm coming in with the Pentagon and Congress backing me, going, hi, yeah, I could listen to you, but here's all the papers. yeah, yeah. You know, um, that's a kind of interesting point though, because you know, educators aren't really. They're Ed, they're experts when it comes to standards. You know, you know, at, you know, math, science, you know, the core subject standards and hopefully, you know, teaching instructions, you know, instructional strategies, you know, and those type of things. Uh, assessment, development, you know, curriculum design. But when, when it comes to this, this specialization in, in social and emotional, you know, development and support. You know, um, I have to be honest and say, no, this is something that was totally, that I learned totally outside through, you know, through more of psychology, you know, and understanding, you know, um, you know, how, how the mind works, how behaviors, excuse me, are established and then, you know, the emotional piece. Emotional. And so schools and educators are not really, are not the experts when it comes to, um, social development. Is the reality of it's not, that's not so, um, and we just have to be honest. And even the experts that's in the school system, like sometimes you may have behavior therapists, but they don't, they don't operate in the same capacity as the medical environment. And so you may have that type of support. Even speech and ot, they don't operate in the same capacity as a medical or clinical setting, um, in the, in the public line, but maybe in the private. No, she. Is only gone to private therapists. And even they were like, I'm like, hi, did you know there's papers on this? And they're like, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just, you know, it's just some gap. Unfortunately, there's some, some major gaps and so I don't position myself necessarily as a expert. I really position myself more as a guide, you know, just to support parents. I think parents, mothers, parents are the, are the experts. They're definitely the experts. And they just need a little bit of maybe guidance and support on the journey. And sometimes just a little reminder that they are the parents and they know stuff. Yeah. Oh yeah. I know. They know a lot of stuff. What were you gonna say, kiddo? I'm sorry. Don't most of these experts be child free and want to be child free for the rest of their lives because apparently children are only paychecks that you need to pay for. And don't Most of them dislike children and don't, most of them just see children as something they have to pay for, so another bill in their bank account. How are the experts if they're all child free and single? has had a lot of therapists that were experts if you're child free and single and convincing a bunch of children. You Jean, that they're only paychecks to pay. No, but you, you, yeah, you, you, you tap on, you touch on something, you know, I know you, you saying in a jokingly manner, but there's some systematic things. Even the reality, like most the, in the therapy model, most individuals that are technicians are young. You know, just the way that the, the, the model is, is created and so. The technicians are young, they're getting either, you know, and they ha they don't really have that, um, same, um, ability perspective as like someone who is older with children who have that experience and that's consistent. Hmm. had some therapists who have told her that they are child free and they don't want kids. Yeah. that's what she was talking Mm-hmm. like, why would a parent listen to someone who's like, oh, if I had kids, they'd ruin my life. And she's like, then I'm not listening to you about how to raise my child. Also, why would you actively tell a child you are working with in a child environment? That you don't like children because they would ruin your lives. Like, why would you work with children if you think having a child would ruin your life, why? Yeah, that's definitely unfortunate, but. You know, sometimes those, those things do you know, do happen. I don't. Yeah. And even with the full SLPs and the full OTs, they don't have that science background that I think a lot of parents just automatically assume, well, they've studied autism. No, they've studied how to teach your kids speech, and I think a lot of moms. Feel like they have to give over that power to the experts. And they're like, well, they know how to teach my child. And it's like, but you know, your child. Correct. Yeah. You know, your child, um, you know their strengths, you know their weaknesses, but also this is, you bring up a really important point. Which, so socially and emotionally, that goes into like culture. And those cultural or social expectations are defined by you and your family and your household, you know, so this is where your voice is, is really the dominant voice. You know, we want our child to develop, you know? So you have to play a role in, in the goals, you know, and the expectations and the vision, you know, because if you don't, and you're mute and you don't, you know, they're. It's not gonna be connected to, you know, your, your family and, and, and the potential that you see. So, but it's a, it's a journey I've realized, and some, and it takes a while sometimes for parents, moms, for parents to just kind of, um, come out of, you know, some of the emotional battles, you know, from, you know, you know, from initial diagnosis to, you know, you know, um, you know, to, you know, years after. You know, you know, and then like you said, like kind of trusting and going with the flow, and then having, you know, challenges and then seeing, you know, you know, and realizing like, oh, oh, this is not working out. So it's a, it's unfortunately a lot of time wasted, you know, wasted, you know, going through that, that, that, you know, on that journey. And I think, I mean, like I said, I was lucky. I came in from the community, so there were a lot of times when I was butting heads with her care team, it was. Me going, hi. I know this is what it says to do, but you are not paying attention to this over here. And every now and then I'd go, I know my degree is only a PhD in quantum physics and I obviously am not the smart one in the room, but would you like to explain that in smaller, Yeah. Yeah. and I, I may have thrown that physics degree a couple times around. But like she had a speech therapist. She was like, we have to focus on the tone of her voice. And I'm like, she can't annunciate words yet That person couldn't say my first name and don't accept the boundary called I am not your child. Can you please stop using my middle name and can you please stop trying to have a Latina accent please? It's just weird. Just weird, freaking weird and disturbing. I finally convinced them you need to be working on the fact she can't say cat, and you're concerned. Her voice is too high pitched. One of these is important in life. And a few of the parents I've talked to at dance are like, wait, you can come in and go, Hmm. I cannot understand my child. Let's think this through. Yeah, yeah. You, you, you touched on something very important because, you know, most parents don't really realize that, don't know that, you know, even in, in the school systems where IEPs it is the same way. I just, you know, watched, been in meetings where it's, it's, you know, parents don't really understand and, but I do notice though when parents have like an advocate. Or they have an attorney, but particularly an advocate that the county knows. Oh, it's attention. What, what you, what, what you, oh, you like this, you want this? Oh, okay. Yeah. And I'm just like, oh. But then other parents who don't understand their rights, don't know their rights, you know, they get kind of like, what they call it, the wool pulled over their eyes or something, you know, like they just, they just get the, so you're right, you're right. We have a school system around here who's telling parents they don't get a copy of the IEP and I'm like, hi. Hand it over and the parents are like, they didn't even bat an eye. And I am like, yeah.'cause I've had 20 years of experience that when I walk through the door, I'm bringing the attorney, they don't wanna speak to me, Hmm. they want me outta there as quickly as humanly possible. that's horrible. You know, like, yes. Yes. At least I am not the attorney who's on a first name basis with their attorney. We do have an attorney in town that I am pretty sure his entire paycheck is based off that one school system. It's, Wow. Hmm. but it's because, I mean. It goes back to they're not experts themselves and they come up with some of the dumbest things, not just with autism, where you're like, hi, if we could just think this through, Yeah. Do you, are you seeing that in other places throughout the nation by chance? there's a few school districts throughout the nation that it's like, just think this through 'cause it's not. That complicated. Mm-hmm. But I think sometimes the parents are so convinced that the educators have gotten an education, they have not gotten on the science behind autism, um, that they give in.'cause they're so overwhelmed with all this. And it's like, um, yeah. And then the educators are overwhelmed because what they're doing isn't necessarily the best option out there. Yeah. And I, I do have to say that I'm not trying to beat up on definitely teachers, you know? It is, it's uh, it's not their fault, you know, for the most part, you know, they don't design school systems, they don't design anything, you know, so it is a lot of factors that are just totally overwhelming. I mean, it takes developmental pediatrician and behavioral psychiatrist, 18 years to become an expert in, uh, autism. Yeah, that is true. you're not going to become an expert in autism in four years without those classes. I mean, the people who are experts are all autistic themselves, let's be honest. I mean, but you're talking neurologist, you're talking behavioral psychiatrist who went to get a psychiatry degree and then went on to get a degree in how behaviors actually work, and then went on to get a degree in autism specific. That's your entire adult life practically before you go work with anyone. Yeah. Yeah, you're right about that. can't expect teachers who are in school for like four years. To even scratch the surface of any of this. Um, we had, I had one teacher who's like, she honestly did not know how an A a C could help a child communicate, and no one had taken the time to explain to her what an A a C was. And so she had banned it from the classroom and couldn't figure out why the child wasn't speaking to her. Oh wow. Good And the parents were like, but the teacher says it's distracting. And I'm like, what's more distracting here? Not talking to the child. About what grade? What? What grade was that? What grade level? It was kindergarten. It was the first, yeah, it, was the first a a C the teacher had ever seen. And she's like, well, she can just leave her iPad at home. oh, wow. I thought it was more like middle school or high school. I mean middle schoolers, but that's, yeah, that's critical. I found, you know, fundamentally foundational. They Oh, but no one had bothered to tell this teacher, this isn't just a normal iPad this child is bringing. Okay. And she thought she was doing what was best 'cause she's like, well, screen time is bad. I'm like, yeah. Assuming that's not how you speak to the world. And she's like, wait, what are you talking about? I'm like, do you even know, um, what this is? I remember when I was in third grade, I had a friend who was hard of hearing. I'm hard of hearing. Um, our teacher, she was more hard of hearing than me. Our teacher was return. Grades and she tried to give her the okay sign, not realizing that that's okay in the hearing world. She just told my friend that she'd gotten an F on the test, but she hadn't ever been told that that's the okay signal for the hearing world. And she was, the teacher was devastated going, no, you got an A plus. Yeah, yeah. You, you bring up a point where, so when I started the, the school, we transitioned to a research center. And so the plan, you know, became taking the research and using the school as opportunity to, you know, provide documentation and evidence and so we can leverage and advocate, you know, and, and, and, and, and, you know. Create policy or advocate for policy that would impact the, you know, the whole nation. And, you know, and so there, there's a need for research, you know, and, and, and hopefully that will drive, but within school systems, um, not school systems within, uh, education departments on universities that's preparing teachers. You know, there's, um, you know, there's, there's no content, you know, around this, you know. And when you talk about neurodiversity, there's no like legislation, you know, codified from federal, state, local that recognizes the word, the term, you know, and let alone like teaching strategies and practices. So yeah, these are some of the major, you know, systematic things that really, you know, I look forward to, um, seeing cha, you know, change over the next, I don't know, five to 10 years. That's one thing I am annoying some of the parents, I think.'cause we're getting a lot of data out of the dance studio and they're like, Ooh. What are you doing? I'm like, I am calling friends up, going, hi, would you like a paper? I don't have time to write it. And it's not my field, but like we've got kids who are starting to speak after dancing for three months. And I'm like, okay, well the bio evolutionary biologist are saying dance is language. Maybe we could. Go a little further, and these parents are going to their teachers and their teachers are like, what's evolutionary biology? And I'm like, that's what we, you know, up at the college world, call it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's interesting. I didn't think about that. I didn't think about that because. At our school, we use, um, adaptive rec, you know, program. And I, and I use that from the beginning as far as like basketball was my sport, but we use it, integrating it with like positive behavior support. And so like from a biological, physiological standpoint and, and, and a, like a neurodevelopmental standpoint, you know, that, that physical movement. Now you, you really have me thinking, you know. I may have to come out there and, and visit a studio or visit a performance. I would love to see it because I can only imagine what's going on. And all the good, uh, studies being done on night are like, nor over in Norway and Sweden and Denmark, and I'm like, could we get someone over here in the US to do this study? Yeah, that's funny. I was in Sweden, uh, a couple years ago and I didn't get time. To to do like research on autism and connect with anybody. But yeah, I can see not even the autism researchers coming up with it, it's the evolutionary biologist. And I hate giving them their dues 'cause you know, they're the baby science, We went 40 minutes, so they usually come up with a good chunk of stuff for humans in the medical fields. And this is just being sad at this point, that the evolutionary biologist is coming up with more, this is how certain medical things work than the medical field. This is just sad at this point. This is just sad. What medical field, you know, their whole job is this. She, she is used to hanging. Around a bunch of professors, so she gets to hear about that academia hierarchy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean that, you know, you're touching on something very, very important. Very important. But, um, I mean, I think it would be good to look into this, but these are. Papers that no teacher, I mean, they have way too much else on their plate. They're not going down the rabbit hole of, oh, what are the evolutionary biologists saying about dance? No, no. Teachers just don't, we don't have the bandwidth to do anything like that. Um, but it, it's, you know, it is gonna take groups, it's gonna take, you know, you know, groups and associations. You know, there should be some teacher associations that transition, you know, into that space, you know, and, um, that can help advocate and support. We, we, we created some fellowship programs for teachers and provided them with instruction, uh, from instructional design standpoint. And we look forward to the transition to, you know, beyond the instructional piece, you know, in the academics, you know. So you were discussing, uh, the research part of everything. Uh, can you. Go. I know we're starting to get towards the end of time and we are definitely gonna have to have you back again, Ken, if you're okay with Oh yeah, please. I, I, I appreciate it. But just, um, you, you wanted to, uh, talk about just the research piece. Yeah. And like what, um, that's all about and how that can be applied. I know that's probably a whole podcast in and of itself. Yeah, but just to summarize it, I, I actually, I was a, um, there's a program de funded by the department of, uh, energy called, um, uh, Albert Einstein, distinguished Educators. And so it's a fellowship for, that's been around over 30 years and it brings STEM educators to Washington, DC So I was able to participate in that program somewhere around 2021. And so I spent time on Capitol Hill as a legislative fellow. And, you know, got a lot of pro professional development and I saw that there was a disconnect between the practice of education, research, and then policy and legislation. And so when I came back, um, uh, I, I decided to take the organization to a slight pivot to a research center with the goal to con, you know, to, to take what we're doing, document it, publish, you know, and, and our research. And advocate, you know, um, for policy, you know, legislation, you know, to, to have a huge, a larger, a larger impact. And so we were able to secure a National Science Foundation grant in partnership with Arizona State, uh, for a program that looked at computational thinking instructional models for, for neurodivergent individuals. And that was great. You know, we, we learned a lot and we were able to be exposed to the research world. Um. But now what we wanna do is, uh, focus on one of our, our programs, which is A-P-B-I-S program that's integrated with therapy, with behavior therapy, actually. But we have a unique model that we use in our school setting, and we want to, uh, we want to look at the, the impact of how, like what you're talking about in your center. You know, you know, these, these practices and these, I don't wanna say alternative, but I guess maybe they're, but they're based on science. And, and, and, and, but we, we know that it works. You know, we're seeing the impact, we're seeing a change in our, in our students. And so, you know, we want to document that, um, as well as continue with providing training and professional development for teachers, um, and, and school leaders. And so there's that, the consideration of a traditional approach. But what we're realizing, and we talked on it, talked about it, there's also. A non-traditional approach that has to, that we have to take, um, with this kind of, this kind of movement.'cause the traditional approach is getting us what we currently have. And so we don't want to be, you know, too alternative. But we, we, we may do some, you know, do some different things, but also we're in a position to just be ahead of the curve, you know? So when we first started the school, the term no diversity didn't exist. And now, you know, almost 10 years later, there's a, you know, there's a, the word, the language, but more importantly the perception, the beliefs, you know, the understanding about capacities of individuals have changed. And also, you know, from a mental health standpoint, from a social emotional standpoint. And so we anticipate for the next five to 10 years that society will catch up, you know, also, and, and shift. And things will just naturally progress, you know, um, to be in a line, you know, with our, our mission and our vision. I am kind of curious, and this is just probably, you know, the crazy scientist in me who's always curious about stuff. What would happen if we took the way we're teaching, like at the dance studio and the way you guys are finding stuff in the research center and applied it to the neurotypical students, would it, I mean, and that's just. Me going, maybe what we're doing is leading education into the direction it needs to be for all the kids. Yeah. And in some aspects of it may just be re return to the original ways of, of, of, of educating, you know, kids, which is, you know, prior to, you know, like the industrial revolution, you know, prior to, you know, prior to, you know, large school systems where schools were more like, you know, school, like homes, you know, house, you know, you know, like, you know, people had schools out of their house. Smaller, more intimate, you know, you know, and so like from a neurological standpoint, from a social emotional standpoint, you're able to build those, you know, positive, like, you know, connections and feel that, you know, feel that energy. But when you talk about that dance, and I just didn't see it, I didn't think about it before, but the combination of the music and the movements, you know, and then if you're singing, you know, like you're, you're tapping into something so positive. And I, and I was reading, reading a, a book today about that the, the, the benefits just of being in a positive environment as it relates to learning. You know, you, you know, so if you're in a positive environment like that and then you infuse some type of learning, you know, that's going to escalate, that's going to increase, you know, the ability to learn compared to if you were in an environment where you were scared for your safety, unfortunately. Right. So, yeah. I know I've annoyed a few of our parents 'cause outside of the amazing, uh, strides our kids are making with speaking and like following instructions. And stuff. Um, a lot of times they are actually progressing in their dance studies faster than their neurotypical counterparts and their parents will be like, really excited. They did something. And our dance teachers are like, hold that thought. That usually takes a neurotypical dancer three years to learn. And your kid learned it in like four months. Nice. them be naive. Mm-hmm. telling you, well just let them be naive. She's just like, let the parents be naive, but it's like You need to remember the difference between dance world and the rest of society, or the difference between congress world and the rest of society. And the only one reminding you there is such thing that two different here. but I'm wonder, I've been wondering over the last like years we're looking at this, if having. early class preschool and early, um, fundamental dance classes, instead of having 10 to 25 5 year olds in a class, if having two to three would make things a lot easier on the children learning. Oh yeah. I, I, I always advocate for the small environments, but I also, I advocate for both. You know, to, to, you know, like, to maybe have those, those both opportunities, you know, so the larger environment. Then also that additional separate small environment. And so then that's, you know, what I, that's where I, that's what I call inclusion, you know, like, so you want, you, you want them to, that's the goal, the larger environment, right? Um, so, but you, they just need some, maybe they benefit, you know, from that, you know, you know that, um. That small environment and, you know, whatever time it takes, if it takes a year, if it takes five years, if they never transition, okay, whatever. It doesn't make a difference. But just my whole philosophy is really just providing, providing opportunities. That's all we could, that's all we could control as, as educators and as you know, um, you know, trainers or, um, coaches, like that's all we can provide is an opportunity and a fear chance, you know, for, for, for students to. Reach their potential. And like you said, when when you give, I, what, what I've found is when you give, you know, individuals that are neuro diversion, a fair chance, a fair chance in a positive environment. Listen, I I got too many stories and, and, and I've seen some amazing things. I've seen some things, and I'm sure you've heard and seen with your own eyes. There's some, there's some greatness. And we're not talking about superpower. I mean, yeah, people say superpower, but there's some greatness. It really is and, and once you see that a couple times, you know for sure like, oh, this, this is something, this is, there's something going on. Oh yeah. And they may be. Crazy, uh, to the rest of the world, but something is going on. Something's. minutes if you don't want this to go hour. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, yeah, you raised me. We would love to have you back on the show again if you're okay with it. Yeah. Yeah, I, I definitely, I definitely if, but before I go, can I add Leta one question, Sure. Leta, I noticed, you know, you have a story, but I just, one quick question. How do you remain so positive? You know, you know, how do you remain so positive? I am really good at dark humor. Yeah. I have to work on humor myself. You know, I need to get a little, a little bit of that from you. I think, um, sometimes because she did grow up with people who. Not camera between the academia and her dad's military friend. She learned rock humor fixes everything. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. but before we let you go, can you tell people where to find out more about your work and where to find your new book? Yeah, yeah. I'm located on kenneth mims.com. Um, and you can just, you know, um, uh, go to website, um, learn more information about my background, about the book. And actually we have a, a free, uh, parent course, uh, and, and, uh, community, um, that we, that we've created and, um, always, you know, looking forward opportunities to speak. So if you're ever looking for people, looking for a speaker, um, I, I love, you know, I love talking about this work and, and just wanna help people and, um, yeah. I appreciate you. Well, we will have all that in the description below. Thank you again for your time today, Ken. Alright, thank you. All right. Okay, well thank you for watching the podcast and please subscribe and also look at the Adorable, don't You watch, subscribe Forward and also please like, and don't pick it if you'll to us, if you'll miss any of our new podcast. And also you see the Adorable, don't you like it?