Ep. 72 with Dr. Michelle Haggerty | Founder & CEO, Fourth Trimester Doc

Revolutionizing the Fourth Trimester - IYKYK

A quiet revolution can start with tea, a newborn on a chest, and a doctor who sits on the edge of your bed and actually listens. That scene—simple, human, and overdue—is how Dr. Michelle Haggerty rebuilt postpartum care from the ground up after her own losses and years inside a system that treats the fourth trimester like an afterthought.

We go deep on matrescence, the often-ignored transformation into motherhood that begins long before birth and reshapes identity, hormones, work, money, and relationships. Michelle shares how fetal cells can remain in a mother’s body, why that matters for grief and belonging, and how narrative medicine—structured birth-story debriefs with both partners—can dissolve trauma before it hardens. Then we zoom out to the hard numbers: the U.S. leads developed nations in maternal mortality, 65 percent of deaths happen postpartum, and 85 percent are preventable. Mental health tops the list, while cardiovascular risks hit communities of color hardest. Ten-minute visits miss what home-based care can catch.

You’ll hear how Michelle left corporate medicine to build Fourth Trimester Doc, where physicians do home visits, answer texts, reduce ER trips, and coordinate lactation, mental health, and pediatric support. We explore direct primary care pediatrics, tiny patient panels, and a bold plan to make postpartum support an employer-paid benefit with onsite groups and well-child checks. Scaling without losing soul means facing the insurance maze, gathering outcomes data, and learning the art of marketing so families can actually find help.

Threaded through it all is trust—faith in intuition, in the “baby” of a new business, and in the power of Ikigai, that sweet overlap of passion, skill, need, and income that turns work into energy. If you care about maternal health, mental health, or just better care that meets people where they are, this conversation will stay with you. Subscribe, share with a friend who’s expecting, and leave a review with the one change you wish every new parent received.

Resources:

Connect with Michelle:

• Website: www.fourthtrimesterdoc.com
• Email: info@fourthtrimesterdoc.com
• IG: @fourthtrimesterdoc
• Facebook: @Fourth Trimester Doc
• LinkedIn: Michelle Haggerty
• YouTube: Fourth Trimester Doc
• Juna Pediatrics: www.junapediatrics.com

Contact the Host, Kelly Kirk:

• Email: info.ryh7@gmail.com

Get Connected/Follow:

• The Hue Drop Newsletter: Subscribe Here
• IG: @ryh_pod & @thekelly.tanke.kirk
• Facebook: Reclaiming Your Hue Facebook Page
• CAKES Affiliate Link: KELLYKIRK

Credits:

• Editor: Joseph Kirk
• Music: Kristofer Tanke

Thanks for listening & cheers to Reclaiming Your Hue!

Chapters

• 0:00 How We Met And Why It Matters
• 3:20 Motherhood, Loss, And Identity
• 6:45 From Clinic Hamster Wheel To Why
• 10:50 Miscarriage, Molar Pregnancy, And Care Gaps
• 16:40 Are You A Mother Without A Baby
• 20:50 Matrescence Defined And Expanded
• 26:20 The U.S. Maternal Health Crisis
• 31:40 Mental Health, Clots, And Missed Signs
• 36:30 Postpartum Should Be At Home
• 42:10 Corporate Medicine And Burnout
• 49:20 A Friend Sparks A New Practice
• 54:30 Birth Stories As Healing Medicine
• 1:01:40 Leaving The System, Building A Team
• 1:07:20 Direct Primary Care For Kids
• 1:12:30 Marketing, Access, And Hidden Gems
• 1:18:30 Employer Benefits And Onsite Care
• 1:24:10 Scaling Pains And CEO Shift
• 1:28:40 Insurance Barriers And Data
• 1:34:10 Trust, Faith, And First Times
• 1:39:40 Motherhood, Ikigai, And Energy
• 1:45:00 Grief, Valleys, And Coasting

Transcript

Kelly: 0:00

Good morning, Michelle.

Michelle H. : 0:02

Good morning.

Kelly: 0:03

How are you? I'm great. Fabulous. I'm so happy that you're here. I'm so excited to be here. I'm just really thrilled. Yes, this is gonna be awesome. Well, and for the listeners, we talked, gosh, how many months ago was it? I was trying to think. I was it four? Probably four months ago. Maybe longer. Yeah. Yeah. And before the summer. This is actually a really nice lead into the question that I start off with all of my guests, which is how is it that you and I know one another? Do you remember how we got connected? Uh-oh, I'm on the spot.

Michelle H. : 0:37

Uh no, we got connected. Well, it was through somebody. It was another person who had connected us. No, I'm not remembering off the top of my head now. Courtney Tanaka.

Kelly: 0:47

Yes. With Renew Me PT. Yes, with PT. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's my physical therapist, by the way. And she's also um, so we we have known each other for years and years and years. We met at a wedding of a mutual friend and stayed like got connected on Facebook. Yeah. But other than that, we didn't speak for years. Like it was just like, hey, hi, we I enjoy you, you enjoy me at a wedding. And then sure enough, she ended up quitting what she was doing with um corporate healthcare.

Michelle H. : 1:20

Yes, yes, yes.

Kelly: 1:21

And then made the full swing into entrepreneurship. And she saw what I was doing with the podcast and reached out. Yeah. And then she was like, Oh, I've got some amazing people that you have to connect with, you being one of them. Well, she is a great connector. Yeah.

Michelle H. : 1:34

Shout out, seriously, shout out to her because she um we we've had some incredible conversations and really um yeah, feel very aligned on many things. So it's been, yeah. Yeah, she's great.

Kelly: 1:45

She's a rock star, and I'm so excited to hear and see how she really fine-tunes everything with her business. Completely. And she's already doing an a bang up job with harmonizing it with motherhood. So she's been on the podcast too. Yes, yes, yeah. Okay, so that is how we know one another. Tell us and tell the listeners what came first for you. Was it motherhood or was it entrepreneurship? And then let's dive into what it is that you do and how you got to what you're doing today. Yeah, absolutely. Um, it was motherhood.

Michelle H. : 2:20

Motherhood came first. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Um, how many kiddos do you have? So I have three birthside and two angel babies. So I lost my first and then I had my first birthside, and then I had another loss, and then I had another baby. And then my third, I expected to have another loss before having my third, just because I was like, that was my pattern. Um, and then um, nope, my third stuck around. So yeah.

Kelly: 2:46

Interesting that you had that thought pattern in your head. You know what I mean?

Michelle H. : 2:51

I was very much expecting it. My I my husband was as well. Um, and so when we were sort of trying and ready for our third, we're like, well, we should probably start trying now because we know we'll have a loss and then we'll have, you know, so we should sort of have the spacing. And no, that's not what happens.

Kelly: 3:05

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So I know that I had sort of guided you through like answering this first question and then sharing with the listeners what it is that you're doing and how you got there. Yeah. But I want to dive into this area of loss as well. Yes. Um, I do want to just sort of bring the listeners along on the journey as well. So when did you decide to move from what you were doing to starting your entrepreneurial business? When was that? Was like what year or was it like in between babies?

Michelle H. : 3:40

Was it after all? It was in between kiddos. Yep. So I started uh my practice in 2020. Um, and so that was between my second and my third. Okay. Um, so yeah. Okay. Um and sort of the vision of it actually started when I was pregnant with my first um my earth, I must my second pregnancy. Um, that's where sort of the vision of the practice started, but I didn't really sort of launch into it until a couple years later.

Kelly: 4:12

Okay. Yeah. We're gonna dive into this. So um what was the trigger point for you in terms of the why behind wanting to create what you have now?

Michelle H. : 4:23

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so the why was sort of a little background. So I'm a physician, um, family medicine physician, um, and I worked in a um federally qualified health center immediately after graduating from residency. Um, for those who don't know, a federally qualified health center is a clinic that basically is a catch-all. So they we see everyone from um from various countries, from various backgrounds, from um various economics, so socioeconomic statuses. Um sort of if you had insurance or didn't, we saw you. And um, so it was a really diverse patient population and really lovely and wonderful. Where was this? North Minneapolis. Okay. And um I loved working there. However, I was sort of feeling like um I sort of felt like a uh on the hamster wheel, basically. So I felt like I was just sort of going through the motions of seeing patients and not really doing the work that I had intended to go into medicine for. Um, so then uh when I got pregnant, I sort of was realizing what this system was doing to people who are pregnant or who have had babies.

Speaker 3: 5:30

Yeah.

Michelle H. : 5:31

Um, and the lack of care and the lack of support people truly did have. And so I, you know, as I was going through my own personal pregnancy, um, actually I should start with the the loss, the the uh my first loss, uh um, we named her Olive. Um, and so with her, sh I um I had this, I had the miscarriage and I ended up ended up having a um uh D and Eve is basically where they do the procedure to remove the products. And um it was it was considered a miss miscarriage, meaning that I didn't we I didn't have uh bleeding on my own. I sort of they had to remove the pregnancy itself. And um I uh they found that it was uh considered a partial molar pregnancy, meaning that it was something that um the tissue from the pregnancy was growing abnormally. And with that, it can actually transition into cancer. So what I had to do then is I had to go into the into the clinic every once a week for months and get um hormone levels tested to make sure that they were continuing to decrease and I wasn't getting it wasn't transitioning into cancer. Um so I would have to walk into a clinic full of pregnant people for months, every single week, and see you know, these people who are very pregnant and going through their journeys and just being basically tortured every week and going into this into this um space. Um and I so it started there. I was like, why can't somebody, why do I have to go into this space to get this done? Why can't I why can't somebody come to me? Why can't I go into um I guess a lab somewhere else? Like, why do I have to be in a space where I'm visually tortured every single week to sort of remind myself that I'm no longer pregnant and I could be like these other women that are there? Um, so that's where it started. It really started in the space of like we are not doing justice to people who are going through these, you know, this these life experiences. And I was postpartum. Like I was pregnant and no longer pregnant anymore. So I was going through my own hormonal hormonal shifts and things as well. And that was not being recognized, or I mean, I was I felt completely alone, completely isolated. And and then the other uh thought or the other sort of thing around that was was I a mother? I had gone through, I didn't have a baby in my arms. I had gone through the whole process of planning a life around this baby, and making, you know, telling my family, telling me your friends, being super excited about this pregnancy and feeling this love and connection to this being and this soul that was part of my body. Um and you know, but was I defined as a mother then? Because I didn't have anyone that was I was in my I was in my arms at that point. I think I absolutely was, and I defined myself as that. Yeah. Um, and but trying to sort of present that to the world was very different as well, right? Um, and I still say I mother those babies, and those babies are still part of my life, and they are they are they're my guiding souls, and they are so a part of this this journey. And so that's why I name them. That's why we we talk about them, you know, on holidays and we we celebrate them. And my my all my boys know that they have two sisters and um that they're like and they're the ones that guided them into this world. And um, I I 100% know that I've like birthed them into you know, sort of my space and my um uh my my world, my world, yeah, but not this world.

Kelly: 8:56

I sort of had this um epiphany. I'm reading, have you ever read the emotion code? No emotional code. Um so it talks about how our body um holds on to negativity and how that can translate into physical and emotional pain.

Speaker 3: 9:18

Yeah.

Kelly: 9:19

And um, the individual who who wrote the book, the the author is escaping me right now. So sorry, listeners, but I'll make sure to drop this into the show notes. Um he talked about how, and he's a man of faith, right? So he very much gave this very interesting perspective about how the body is energy, absolutely. Like and it's our souls within we have uh our souls, and then the body is just essentially the temple that we our souls are kept in.

Speaker 3: 9:52

Completely.

Kelly: 9:53

And he backs this up with science-based facts about um if science scientists have actually um, I promise, like this ties in. Okay, we're gonna we're gonna love this. Bear with me. Scientists at one point studied um energy field around a leaf. And when the leaf was cut in half, they could still see the outline of the whole leaf, the energy field around the whole leaf. Fascinating, huh?

Speaker 3: 10:26

Fascinating.

Kelly: 10:26

So in my head, immediately when you like you proposed this question about how whether you were a mother or not, well, you had a soul within you. And whether whether that soul was birthed from you or was within you, it doesn't matter. You were a mom for sure. Exactly. Exactly. I would 100% back that up. Fight me about it, people. Fight me about it.

Michelle H. : 10:52

I call I call our bodies our meat suit. It is our um, it it that's what it sort of like gets us through, you know, the world and things. Um, but it's I love it. It's quite but it's it is our energy and our soul is what what makes us, right? Um and we want to be nice to our meat suits. We want to be kind to them to help them sort of like go move along through life.

Kelly: 11:13

But it was a little bit of that too, like, oh, I should really be nicer to my body, both in like a mindset, yeah, a mindset thought process, but then also what I'm fueling it with. Right. Right, my soil just loves when I fuel the body in all the right ways, and it does not when it's the opposite.

Michelle H. : 11:33

Yes, no, exactly. Um, the other thing I want to well bring up with that too, though, is that there is there's a word for it. I'm blanking completely on it. Well, again, maybe in the show notes we can drop it in. But um, the uh whenever we carry uh a baby in our um within our bodies, actually leave parts of them into the the maternal body. Um there's there's cells that are left then. Um so we are actually made up of our babies as well. So my babies are always even part of my meat suit, right? Like even that beyond even my soul, you know, and my and the energy with it. So um, so yeah, absolutely they are.

Kelly: 12:13

Do you remember when we were talking, our initial like Zoom conversation? And I was like, I'm obsessed with what you're doing, Michelle. Because I, you know, I had the introduction, like Courtney was like, You need to meet Dr. Michelle Haggerty. And so I and she had mentioned the name of your business, which is Fourth Trimester Doc. Fourth trimester doc. And I was like, Yes. And so I started like looking through your website and stuff, and I came upon one of your pages that had brought up this process of matrescence. Yes, yes, and I think about the matrescence in respect to what you're speaking to with 100% how the cells of our children stay with us. Oh, yeah. No wonder there's this massive transition from you know, for your first initially not having a child to then all of a sudden having a child, and then nobody is talking about this process of the fourth trimester. Yes, right. I should say, I should back up. Initially, I do feel as if it's sort of catching fire, you know, like the wind has picked up and the fire of the fourth trimester is starting to spread. It's starting to spread. Yes, exactly. But I would love for you to speak to the term matrescence. Um, we talked through this versus like adolescence, right? Yes. So why don't you go ahead and share what it is um like the definition of matrescence?

Michelle H. : 14:01

Yeah, so the um the definition actually comes from uh an anthropologist, um, Dr. Dina Raphael, um, who um was actually I'm not sure if she's a PhD. I'm thinking about it. She might just be Dina, not Doctor. She might be Dana Raphael.

Kelly: 14:18

But it would be nice in this moment. Do you ever watch Joe Rogan, by the way? Yes. And he's got his um person, Jesse, Jesse? I I think like whoever the person there's like up there doing the research. He's like, hey, can you just look up? I'm like, I want somebody like that, right?

Michelle H. : 14:35

Give us the deeds. Um, so but she was the one that coined the term um matrescence. And she actually also, um, interestingly enough, coined the term doula as well. So she's sort of got this like read meaning, yeah, um, sort of historical, you know, um aspect with it from this. Um, but so uh it was originally coined in the like 1970s, and then just sat dormant for forever.

Kelly: 14:59

And then much like many things with women and completely like who cares about that, right?

Michelle H. : 15:05

Um, and which is what sort of society sort of puts out there, and um and then it was uh re-sort of brought into the mainstream and um by an anthro by a um sorry psychologist um from Columbia, and she sort of brought this back into um the world. Um and basically matrescence is a uh the the definition is truly just the birth of a mother. Um, but to me it means so much more than that. Um, and it sort of brings back to, you know, was I a mother or not? This whole idea behind I personally believe this birth of a mother comes from when you first even start thinking about if you want to be a mother. Is this something that you even want to do want to be a parent? Um, because at even at that point, you are making decisions that shift your life. You are making health decisions, you may start taking prenatal vitamins, you may start eating healthier, you may start being more um in tune with the environment or the world, or maybe even becoming more political because you're worried about what the political climate is looking like. Um, you may even, you know, talk to doctors about fertility and um and things like that. So you motherhood starts way before even having a baby, years before, years before. Um and uh and so to me that there's it's this journey, this huge process that really happens. And it's not just this timing of like the birth, it's like this, you know, this this whole experience. Um, and it continues obviously much further after the birth. Yeah. So um, so yeah, so I think that there's there's so much more to be be said and sort of talk about with this this sort of idea and experience. But matrescence in um it rhymes with adolescence, as you said. So that's an easy way to sort of remember how to how to um phrase it. But it's it's this this shift in our emotions, our physical, our um psychological, the hormones, the again, the environmental, how we interact with our environment, financial, right? So you start thinking about how your finances are different. Um there's, you know, you how you present to the world, how the world sees you. All of these things happen, and it's just this huge transformation that occurs and really very similar to adolescence, where in adolescence, you know, we we recognize and acknowledge that there's a lot of shifts that happen during that stage, right?

Speaker 3: 17:28

Yes.

Michelle H. : 17:28

Um and there's a lot of research around that stage, and there's a lot of um uh even there's there's whole you know, uh professions around specifically focused in that. Um, but the same isn't true in matrescence, and um, and there's just sort of this loss of, and which is why I think people feel so isolated and um and feel sort of uh you know shunned from like the evangelical medical community, and it just feels like people are sort of put out to the side when they they're going through this whole huge transformation. And to your point, I do think that's shifting. I think that there's more people that are speaking out and and sort of demanding that care and that support and and frankly the the research around it. Yeah.

Kelly: 18:09

Um Do you know Katie Sievert with Let's Talk Women? Yes, okay. So she's also she's interviewed here on the podcast, and um, she threw out some pretty staggering statistics in terms of just the the lack of information and um sort of science backing of like women and supporting women and women's health. And it's fascinating to me. And I think a lot of what you're doing ties incredibly with what she is talking through and um having people come on for panels and stuff, and so um, you know, another little tie-in to just serving women, yes, yes, continuing to like serve women the best way that we can in the current moment, in the current environment and economic um environment that we're in.

Michelle H. : 19:08

Yes, completely, completely. And and and and we matter, right? Like our, you know, um for having mothers leave um the workplace, having mothers uh die, frankly, is a huge, has a huge effect on our economy. And there even that is not being addressed, right? Um and so, and and you know, we talk about statistics. I mean, when you're when we're looking at maternal health and the the statistics around that in the United States specifically, it's astounding what we're dealing with and why it's not being addressed. I'm gonna throw out some for you because I don't know if she talked about this, but we'll add it. Um so in the United States, we have the highest maternal mortality rate amongst developed countries in the world, the highest. So we are spending umpteen billions of dollars on health, but yet our mothers are dying, right? The highest.

Kelly: 19:59

How is this possible?

Michelle H. : 20:01

Yeah.

Kelly: 20:01

I mean, one has to ask that and beg that question.

Michelle H. : 20:04

We can talk through that because I think there's there's some obvious reasons why and what's what's why this is happening, and sort of what I'm doing to try and combat that. Um, so highest maternal mortality rate in uh amongst developing countries, um, or amongst developed countries in the world. Um, and then of that, um, 65% of maternal deaths happen postpartum. So not during the pregnancy when we have, you know, 13, 14, 15 different visits during the pregnancy, not during the birth when everyone's so hyper focused on all the things that you know could go wrong in the birth and um making sure that you know the people are um surviving the birth, right? Yeah um, and you know, so that's that's a time that we have 24-hour care and people are in the hospital and they're sort of getting all this this support. It's postpartum when people have one postpartum visit as six weeks postpartum. So let's talk about right why why because people are not being seen, they're not being acknowledged, they're not being supported. So then the next statistic that will go with that is that 85% of those maternal deaths, those deaths that happen, 85% are preventable. Okay, 85% are considered preventable. So we've got these 65% of post of deaths happening postpartum, 85% considered preventable. Again, if somebody had seen them, if somebody had listened to them, if somebody had acknowledged what they're going through and the huge shift their bodies are, you know, their bodies, their minds, and all the things that they're going the matrescence for sure, they would be alive.

Kelly: 21:39

Okay. I have questions. Yeah. So do you know like above and beyond those statistics, the reasonings behind those deaths?

Michelle H. : 21:52

So the number one reason is is mental health. I want this is why I asked the question. Right. Um, if you break it down actually by um by race, uh, it actually breaks down a little differently. Um the uh BIPOC uh community, they tend to have actually more um issues with uh like clots and cardiovascular issues and things like that. Um so their number one is a little different. But if you look at the whole picture, it's um and and typically white people have um it's maternal health or some mental health. Mental health side of it. Um so yeah, but there is so there is, we're not acknowledging again, these shifts are happening and seeing um, you know, what we can do to prevent. So with cardiovascular things, like we should be people need physical exams. They need to be seen, they need to be, you know, if you're having um, you know, swelling in your leg, it's not just because of postpartum, it could be because you have a clot there. It could be you're getting, you know, if you're having trouble breathing, it could be you have a clot in your lung. If you're having, it's not just you know, being tired, right?

Speaker 3: 23:00

Yeah.

Michelle H. : 23:00

Um, if you are you could be having um uh uh congestive heart failure as well. There's there's heart failure at postpartum. And um, and again, it's not just because you're you're tired.

Kelly: 23:11

It's yeah, it's like there's other things that are happening. What's the timeline of of these um postpartum deaths that occur? Is it within a data should is up to a year, is what they're looking at.

Michelle H. : 23:24

Um, of course, there's other things that happen after a year, but um, but it's really that first year is the one that's that's okay the highest risk. Um so yeah, there's there's so many things that we could be doing to support people in this space and it's not just seeing them one time for a 10-minute visit.

Kelly: 23:43

Let's tie this in with what you are actively doing now in your business. So let's um let's go back to what you were initially speaking to um being a physician and um being in that healthcare world and then the transition into your now business.

Michelle H. : 24:05

Yeah. So as I was saying, I was sort of seeing people um in my clinic space and thinking like I would see these babies and these moms come in for their six-week visit. And I'm like, gosh, you should be at home. Like, why are you coming in here? Um, you I we need to be able to see you there. Like, what is happening? Like, this does not look um, this is this is not right. And then when I had my own babies, I thought I was, you know, in my in my bed um in my jammies and my diaper because I was still incontinent and um and half naked and thinking, why in the world do I want to get out of my bed and go into the clinic to take, you know, to see for sure. Um, and they don't care about me anyway, they just want to see my baby. So why? Like, what am I doing?

Kelly: 24:48

Oh, you're like, I'm getting a little bit of uh PTSD from this. It's the the anxiety of like having to get ready and prepared to be there, get your get your child prepared and in the car seat. That was the first time like I was, it wasn't six weeks, but like it was like a few weeks after, and I it was my first time taking Maddie, yes, driving, and I was like, this is terrible. Terrible.

Michelle H. : 25:18

I'm terrified of tearing the car seats, all these things, right? Yeah, no, none of it should be happening. It shouldn't that um you know, like men get a vasectomy, and then you know, they're not allowed to carry anything over five pounds for you know days afterwards at the front door. Like this is this is our front door the front door is that for real, yeah. I mean 10 pounds, but yeah, yeah.

unknown: 25:41

Mm-hmm.

Kelly: 25:41

Mm-hmm.

Michelle H. : 25:42

Yeah. So this is this is the world we live in. Like we don't, they're not allowed to get off the, you know, they're supposed to relax and heal and all these things, and we're we're supposed to be carrying our babies in after we just pushed a watermelon under a vagina or or had a major abdominal surgery, right? Those are the two things that how these babies come out. Um I'm still stuck in this vasectomy.

Kelly: 26:02

Like I'm still stuck on it. I am like being triggered by this so badly, right?

Michelle H. : 26:07

It's wild how we we treat people so differently, right? So um, so yeah, so I, you know, had my own babies and was thinking, gosh, there's I do not, I'm saying I'm leaking from every orifice. I was crying, my breasts were leaking, my I was, you know, incontinent, all these things were happening, and here I am going into the doctor thinking, why am I here? This does not feel right. So, but just feeling like that, like, okay, this is you know, what do we do with this? This is this is what we're doing.

Kelly: 26:34

Full steam ahead.

Michelle H. : 26:35

Um, so after my second, I uh I sort of went through this process of like thinking through like there's gotta be a different way. There's gotta be another way that we can do this. Like, what is what's the what can we do? But I was coming up, coming up against in medical school and residency, as physicians, we're told we're never gonna own our own business. We are always gonna work for somebody else, whether it be a hospital or clinic system. We're always gonna have administrators. We are never we will never make it on our own. So don't even think about it.

Kelly: 27:06

Unbelievable. But interestingly enough, I wanted, I was thinking about this when you were initially talking about you know, being in the healthcare system as a physician and um like what that world looked like before I want to say like insurance really kind of took over and like healthcare became what it is now. Physicians had their own practices. Yeah, yeah. And then I th and then I think it was like businessmen came in and and were like, hey, this can look so much more efficient, this can look so much better. Yep. Entered like the true like corporate healthcare umbrella. We're gonna assign administrators to you, it's gonna be so much more smooth for you Yeah, you don't need to worry about the business.

Michelle H. : 27:54

We will take care of the business part, you just do the medicine part, right?

Kelly: 27:57

But then what ended up happening was the pressure to meet specific quotas, right? Yep, and this is where physician burnout came. Yes. The reason I bring this up is because last week I had three women on who were all widows, and two of those, actually, one of them, her husband was a physician and committed suicide because of physician burnout.

Michelle H. : 28:21

Oh my gosh.

Kelly: 28:22

Oh and the mental load. And he was an oncologist, so it was like, I mean, he it was just awesome. I mean, really, but I I thought, wow, think about what it could look like and how much different life could be if physicians did have the opportunity to go through schooling and have the opportunity to learn what the business side could look like.

Speaker: 28:48

Absolutely. It could be a good idea. But then also like you can choose your path.

Michelle H. : 28:53

Right, I guess. But that doesn't serve the big hospital systems and the big corporate systems, right? So they don't want us to know that because they they want us to be just sort of the worker bees, right? Um, and these administrators are making millions and millions and millions of dollars. And the physicians are making doctors who are making less and less every year. Yeah. And they're doing less and less of what they thought they were going into medicine for, right? We thought we were going, we we want to help people, we want to connect with people, we want to hear stories. And um that doesn't happen in the system because you have you 10-minute visits that you're just like are trying to get through, and um, and that's sort of where I got to. Um, so what happened in 2020 was that then I had a um a dear friend of mine come to me and say, I'm pregnant. I want my my baby to come see you in clinic. I'm so excited. Can you be our doctor? And I sort of had this feeling, and I looked at her and I said, I Can't she said, what do you mean? Like she thought there was something wrong with her, right? Um, like or her friendship was, you know, there's something wrong with her friendship. And I I said, No, no, it's it's not you, it's me. Um, I don't like who I am in the clinic. I don't like the way I practice medicine. I don't feel I wouldn't feel like I was actually serving you appropriately. Um, I feel like uh I couldn't do the the job that I really wanted to in that space, and so I can't be your doctor there. I don't want you to see me in that light. It's a different I'm a different person there. Wow. But I have this vision of this practice where you're at home in your jammies, you gave birth a couple days ago. I come in, it's in the evening, the candles are lit, we make some tea together, and I sit down with you on your bed and snuggle up with you and your baby, and we talk about your birth, and we talk about um you know how things went, how you're feeling. We examine your baby on your on your chest when their baby's all snuggled into you. We you know make sure breastfeeding is going well and we make sure you're feeling okay and that all the things are happening in the way that we expect. I'm gonna answer any of the questions that you have, and then I'm gonna leave you there in that same spot where I where I came into. And um, and we'll just, you know, I'll come in a couple days later and you can text me and you can ask questions as things come up, and I'm there for you in a way that looks different than what the system is. What do you think?

Kelly: 31:59

She's like, I think I'm incredible. Your friend, aka guinea pig for the start of an incredible business. Like, she had such an amazing blessed stroke of luck. Yeah. But it was meant to be, right?

Michelle H. : 32:18

Because she was the one. So then she paid me up front. I created the LLC, did all the things that I needed to do to sort of, you know, launch the business. I had six months to do it because she was early in her pregnancy, so I had time. Um, so it's almost this proof of concept because I already had like, you know, your first client or your first, you know, um paying customer. And uh, and so I, you know, sort of built it from there. And so from there it was just word of mouth. I did it on the side, I continued to work in the clinic, um, didn't advertise. You just sort of like, you know, I'd have one patient for a couple months and then I had another one a couple months later. And so basically it just sort of, you know, grew very organically from there.

Kelly: 32:58

And um there wasn't anything in terms of um like non-compete, right? Like I think of when I read the one of the widows, she wrote a book about um, it's called The Illusion of a Perfect Career or something like that. Yeah, wait. Oh my gosh, that's even if the if that's not the title, that's a perfect title. It's did I put it in here? I didn't. No, I don't have it in here, anyways. Um, sorry, Betsy Gall. I'm totally butchering the name, but it's the illusion of the perfect something. And um the illusion of a perfect profession is what it is. Yes. So anyway, she she talked about like her husband at that time had um transitioned from uh the group he was with here in Minnesota to um a smaller practice in North Carolina, and he had this non-compete for I think it was like a year. Well, things that's when things really started to go south, was when he was with this other practice in North Carolina, and it was like within three months. It that's when everything happened. All she kept saying was like, let's go back to Minnesota, and he's like, I can't, I have to, like, I've got this non-compete. And it was just like devastating to continue to read through this part portion of the book. So, did you have anything like that in place, or did you ever have any sort of like I've gotta be careful about how I approach this and how I'm having conversations with people because I'm sure you're having people like come through the healthcare system knowing that they are just not gonna be tended to after birth the way that they are tended to before.

Michelle H. : 34:51

Yeah, absolutely. So um luckily for me, and actually this is another sort of stroke of luck that I had um early on, is that I my um our residency manager um looked at our our uh contracts when we first got our initial contracts uh for first jobs or first attending jobs. And one of the things she really focused on was um making sure that we didn't have non-competes in our first contracts. And um, and mainly actually because I was thinking about going back and teaching for that uh residency program. Um so she's like, just make sure you don't have a non-compete so you can come back and teach, you know, in between.

Kelly: 35:28

Yeah.

Michelle H. : 35:29

Um, so I actively made sure that I didn't have a non-compete in my initial contract right from the start. Everything happens for a reason, Michelle. 100%. And then I had an incredible boss at the um at the clinic I worked at. And I I I was very upfront with what I was doing and said that I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't sort of poach on any of the patients that were at the clinic, I wouldn't take any clinics, any patients from there. Um, and what I was doing was so different than what the clinic was doing that it wasn't really a uh, you know, something that we're was competing with what they were doing in general anyway, because they weren't providing that service anyway. Like there was no.

Kelly: 36:05

I I was gonna ask a question like, did it ever prompt any sort of like reaction from them, like, hey, we should really evaluate what we're doing within this.

Michelle H. : 36:15

No, because it couldn't, like they couldn't within their, you know, the confines of the system. And so it wasn't something that they felt like they would be doing anyway. And in fact, it was probably in their eyes a a loss of fun money because it was gonna be seeing less patients and in you know, that amount of time and things. So devastating. Um, so it wasn't something that they were really interested in anyway. Um one thing I want to back up on as far as the you know, physicians owning their own practices and things as well, is that physicians actually aren't legally allowed to own hospitals. Um, there's a there's a law against that, which is one of the things that has happened in why medicine has changed and shifted the way it does, because there is, and why administrators and all these business people are the ones that are owning hospital systems and why the hospital systems are run the way they are, is because there aren't altruistic people doing the care and and owning the businesses and actually supporting the um, you know, the the the patients in the way that they you know should be. Um, so that is one of the the huge issues in our in our system and and why it's because again, they're they they are sort of pushing down physicians and not allowing them to rise up and be able to um to do the work and and really shift the way that medicine is practiced these days. So there's a number of factors that have come into play that have really caused that illusion of the perfect profession. Because it's it's definitely not. Um which is why and sort of for me then what's really incredible is I've been able to create my perfect profession then because I what I went into medicine for now I'm able to do. Yeah. Because I'm able to do exactly what I what I sort of set out to do and wanted to do and and care for people in the way that meet people where they're at and actually make a difference in their lives. Um and be connected with them and have them know me. And I'm I'm a person too, right? And in the system, we're not seen as that.

Kelly: 38:14

No. Um so matter of fact, it's almost at to a point now where there's such a huge I think that there's a divided scope in the sense of trust.

Michelle H. : 38:27

Completely.

Kelly: 38:27

Either, you know, there's 50% of people that are full-on trust with the healthcare system and whatever their doctor says to them, they follow to a T. And sometimes, like depending on who their their doctor is, that might be the right thing. And then there's the other percentage of us, and I will I fall in this category where it's like, I'm gonna avoid going to the hospital or the doctor, or just the general, like, I'm gonna avoid it at all costs. Yeah, absolutely. And there's and I because I don't trust. I have zero trust anymore.

Michelle H. : 39:02

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that there's the problem is that physicians are being blamed for it when really they're trying their darn best to work in a system that is pushing them down and pushing them out, not allowing them to do what they really want to be able to do. Um, there's a very, I mean, of course, there's you know, exceptions to the rule, but or exceptions to, you know, in general, but the vast majority of of physicians want to help people and they want to provide support and evidence and um and care that you know meets people where they're at and really be able to, but you can't hear somebody's story if you don't have time. Ten minutes it doesn't work that way. So, of course, you know, I I was in a system then where I was like, okay, well, we'll give you some more insulin or we'll give you some more medication as opposed to how do we meet you and figure out how do we then support you in a way that really feels um and makes sense to you, you know, and how do you how do you find that you know space of wellness and um and connection with that?

Kelly: 40:01

Okay, so I'm just looking up real quick a book. I might have asked you about this. Um when we had our initial Zoom call. Have you read the book Good Energy by Casey Means? Or have you heard of Casey Means? Why does that sound familiar to me? Okay, this is the summary. And I'll make sure to drop this in the show notes for the other 50% that doesn't trust the healthcare system. A bold new vision for optimizing our health now and in the future. What if depression, anxiety, infertility, insomnia, heart disease, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, um, and many other health conditions that torture and short-turn our lives actually have the same root cause. Our ability to prevent and reverse these conditions and feel incredible today is under our control and simpler than we think. Dr. Casey Means explains in that groundbreaking book nearly every health problem we face can be explained by how well the cells of our body energy create and use energy to live free from frustrating symptoms and life-threatening disease. We need our cells to be optimally powered so that they can create good energy, the essential fuel that impacts every aspect of our physical and mental well-being. Um, let's see here. I wanted to see if it gave any um more information about Dr. Casey Means herself. Um, but it doesn't. So that's sort of the the uh genesis of what that is. I encourage you to listen to or read.

Michelle H. : 41:35

There's another book that's sort of similar to that. It's a different, um, a different another physician wrote it and oh gosh, I'm blanking on it as well. But it's um it's sort of yeah, the metabolic um disease is sort of like the the underlying cause of so much, so many things with like how again how the cells use utilize energy.

Kelly: 41:52

Yeah, I think I know the book that you're talking about and the name of it and the author's escaping. Yeah, same. We'll find it.

Michelle H. : 41:58

We'll figure it out.

Kelly: 41:59

There's so many amazing books. Uh I can't even keep track of it. And I think like on a weekly basis, I have another one or two books that are um suggested for me to read. Completely.

Michelle H. : 42:09

I've got this running list I'm like never gonna keep up with, but I love it. Well, one thing I want to bring up with that is that, you know, so I um I treat a lot of um perinatal mental health, obviously. There's um there's I do it within within my practice, within people that uh, you know, I'm I'm seeing, but then also um people seek me out for um second opinions or um sort of you know additional um treatment options for um perinatal mental health because there's so many um unfortunately uh what happens in the system again is that most people end up getting sort of prescribed Zoloft or Cetalipram or some, you know, whatever Certrilline Um and they sort of given given the medication and sent on their way. There's like, here's your pills and go, you know. Um and again, this is what's killing a lot of people, right? This is this is number one cause.

Kelly: 42:55

I have to just piggyback off of this because one of the other widows oh yeah, is uh she's a um drug advocate now and serves on one of the FDA boards. Kim Forgive Me, um Witchek, Kim Witchek. Okay, anyways, her husband was prescribed Zoloft, and this was about 20 plus years ago when more research, like there was already research that had been done on Zolof.

Michelle H. : 43:25

Yeah, yes.

Kelly: 43:26

But there was there was research that had been done on how it impacted um adolescents. Yes, teenagers. Yes, yeah, increases on suicide and suicide. Yes. Sounds like you have some understanding of the case. Yes, very much yourself about this.

Michelle H. : 43:44

Yeah, we um it is one of the sort of black box warnings on um on the city. She fought for that, and that's that's the reason.

Kelly: 43:50

Yes, yes, because of her. Amazing. The black box label, black box is on the lab, on the box now, which is so important, right?

Michelle H. : 43:59

Like we, you know, it's it does treat um, you know, these can these illnesses and these um these concerns, but it also does put people at increased risk as well. So you can't just send people, and there's side effects, right? So you can't just send people, you know, give people a prescription and say, you know, be on your way and good luck, right? Um, and frankly, I love medication. I do, I think it's amazing. I think it there's there's space for it, and there is um, there is definitely need for it, and there's, but it's one tool out of hundreds.

Speaker 3: 44:30

Yeah.

Michelle H. : 44:30

And what I'm finding in the system is that um it seems people act like it's the only tool. It's the only thing that and therapy, which again, amazing, love it. Yeah. Um, but there's so much more that we can do to f to help people that is beyond that. Um and you know, so I talk a lot about like, you know, we need the building blocks to help build serotonin, not just blocking it from being, you know, sort of, you know, uh uh broken down and elevating in that way. Um, you know, what are the things we need the cofactors that so like the vitamins and minerals that are important to actually build serotonin? And we need those, those those supplements are really important. Um if people feel wellness through energy medicine, for example, um What do you mean by energy Reiki, for example? Okay, um for many people if they've used it in the past and it's been something that's really resonated with them, it has to resonate with the person getting the the treatment. Otherwise, they're never gonna be well from whatever you're doing. Um, and so for me it's it's how do we how do we connect with people and find out what what that is for them? What are the things that resonate with you that feel really I mean even with medications? Like there's some people like I need a medication that's sort of like what that's that makes sense to me. Um other people are like, you know, if I take a medication, there's no way I'm gonna feel better because I'm gonna I'm gonna be so focused on the side effects and other things that are with it that they're never gonna feel good about putting the medication in their mouth every day. So that's not gonna work for them. Um so you know, looking at acupuncture, how do we use that? How do we use um manual medicine? So how do we use like sort of physical medicine and the way we move our body, yoga, um chiropractors, chiropractors, right? Exactly. Osteopathic manipulation, there's um uh use for that, cranial sacral therapy, right? There's all these different um narrative medicine where you sort of tell your story and what and use your wisdom. Um and uh and I really think if we were to use narrative medicine more in the birth process and after after the birth, there would be so much more healing that would happen, and people wouldn't move into that anxiety and move into the the um the other sort of mental health stuff that comes up postpartum because they're so traumatized by what happened in the birth, right? And as opposed to sort of sort of this is a um an aside, but um you know, I talk to families glad about okay, tell me your birth story. Like, and I don't want to just hear, oh, I had a cesarean or oh, I had you know vaginal birth and it was fine. Like I want to hear all the details. So we're like an hour long, like tell me everything. And what I love is sitting down with their partner as well, or whoever their support person is, um, and having them sit next to and and tell their story too. So the two of them tell their story together, what that what that looks like, and it fills the gaps. So, for example, um, somebody who's giving uh giving birth vaginally and um is sort of doing it all natural and doesn't have any pain medication and sort of goes through this this thing and then um they're going through their transformation stage of the birth, and so they're roaring, screaming, you know, they're reeling, their body is moving, right? Can't do this, like all these things are happening, right? And um their partner is watching watching this and thinking they're dying. Like this is they're I'm seeing a different side of the what is happening with my wife, right? Um, and uh and so there's or my partner or whoever, and uh and so they're like watching this thinking, oh my god, like what is happening? And you know, the birth the person who's giving birth is like, oh no, I was in my power. I was in my I I was, you know, this was my moment, you know, I was feeling like I turning in the animal, it's sort of like energy, right? And um, and so by having that story, but by saying that and having the partner realize, oh, that okay, okay, all right, we're okay, right? Now we can maybe consider having another baby down the line. So many of these spirits are like, there's no way I can watch that again. That it's not happening. I will not let my my partner go through that again. They were they were on the verge. And I'm like, no, actually, this was very much part of their journey. Oh, incredible. And they sort of came into their power in that moment. Reverse it and have um, you know, somebody who maybe has to go on for a cesarean birth for whatever reason, they maybe it's an emergency and the baby's heart rate was dropping and things were happening very quickly. They go into the um into the um OR and their partner's next to them, and uh, you know, the baby comes out and they hear nothing. No cries, nothing's happening. The partner sees that baby and the baby's looking around like everything's fine, you know, all good, just hasn't cried yet. The person on the table who hasn't heard that baby scream yet is thinking that baby just died. Yeah. Where is that? Why is that baby not breathing? Yeah, there's something wrong. The partner's seeing it looking like, no, this baby's great. They're just like alert and looking around now, everything's good. They didn't hear that story, they don't know that story. So now in their mind they're ruminating on there's some, there's, you know, my baby has brain, you know, didn't get oxygen for a long period of time. There's something I'm gonna be worried about them forever. Um, you know, this whole scary scenario over and over and over again, versus you know, the partner who's like, oh no, everything's good.

Kelly: 49:54

Yeah.

Michelle H. : 49:55

But they didn't know, you know. So if you have those, if you tell those stories together, it fills in those gaps and then it prevents that those that anxiety, those ruminating thoughts, the fear. Um, and you can sort of move forward with, you know, away from the trauma of what that birth could have been. Now, there's obviously real more in in-depth trauma and things that happen, but a lot of times it's those little nuances that people really sort of fixate on that end up being very, very scary for them for the long term. And we can prevent that, which again prevents some mental health stuff down the line, which prevents deaths, right? Like these are these are things that are very easy, quote unquote, to sort of um treat or deal with, but and and prevent in the first place. But we we're we're not given the time, the energy, the space to do so. So how do we, you know, yeah, and sometimes this is the only time that people are actually telling their whole story, right? Like when else do they have a time or space or energy so to somebody to sit and listen and say yeah, like hey, I want to hear all, I want to hear everything, all the pieces. Yeah, the scary ones, exciting ones, the the moments, the you know, I want to hear all of it. So it's interesting.

Kelly: 51:05

You're you're kind of making me think about talking through that with my husband too. Like I I didn't have any sort of like real trauma that came out of that, but I will interestingly enough.

Michelle H. : 51:21

So I get yeah, there's yeah.

Kelly: 51:24

My husband had never, so he's remarried. We're now we're married, and with his two sons, they were both born via C section C-section. So he never got to experience uh a vaginal birth. Right. And he did, and at first, like he did, he's like he has no problem commun with communication. Yes, so the communication was happening um probably within a like a week or two. And he right away was like that was the most beautiful experience, seeing you in your power, essentially. Not his words, but like in your power and talking to my daughter. Like I was talking to her, coaching her to okay, you're doing this. I can do this, honey, let's go. It's like I want to meet you and we want to meet you, let's do this, let's go, girlfriend. Right, yes, and he was like, that was the coolest thing ever. And he actually got, dare I say this. He got a video, he took video of the process of her coming out, and he was like, it was, I mean, it I think he was sort of having this like kind of catch 22 moment, like that was something. Yeah. And then that was something.

Michelle H. : 52:49

Yeah, same. My husband's very similar, yes, yes, yes.

Kelly: 52:55

So, but it you have me kind of thinking, like, how how therapeutic could that be to have this moment with your significant other, your your partner, and going, let's talk about that day. Yeah. And what you experienced versus what I experienced. And what were those highs and lows and stuff?

Michelle H. : 53:14

And it's really cool to hear like them seeing you, yeah, and saying, Wow, I acknowledge that I see that you were in your power or whatever, whatever terminology they use. Um, or maybe I was a little afraid at that moment. And this was scary for me and felt very vulnerable and that I was about to lose, you know, the the my human, my person, you know. Um, so yeah, I think that there's a lot to be, and and you won't, it's interesting because I think that most people don't know what those would be very surprised at what moments those are that are very the vulnerable moments. This the the the scary ones, the ones, or maybe the that you didn't even know was happening. Like maybe you maybe he heard the nurse and the doctor talking in the background at one point, and you were like, and you didn't even know that that was a thing, right? Yeah, um, like off to the side or something. And uh, and so having it's it's just sort of completes the puzzle, I think, and um and really sort of brings together this whole transformative, you know, moment, really for sure.

Kelly: 54:17

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so I want to pivot um and talk through the process of you going into business and how long the transition took for you because you had mentioned I was really doing this on the side, a sort of a side gig. But then when did you decide I'm gonna fully commit to this?

Michelle H. : 54:38

Yeah. Um so I had my third, and uh at first I was gonna take um three months off, like you know, 12 weeks, like everyone does. Um but I was like, gosh, I this may be my last kid, I don't know. And I have this business, and sort of the whole point of doing that is be able to to have the flexibility in my life with you know having these kids and being able to be a part of their lives early on and things. So um, so I said to the clinic I was working at, I want nine months. And they said, Oh, and I was ready to walk. Yeah, they wouldn't give me nine months. Yeah. Um, but they said yeah. So they gave me nine months. So I took nine months and um set my business during that time, took uh beautiful nine months with my my my third one, it was incredible, and then went back to work at the clinic again nine months later and realized very quickly within the first couple weeks of being back that I didn't want to be there anymore. It just wasn't the space that for me um that I really wanted to dive into my private practice. And um, so I gave my three-month notice then to the clinic, and um, so in April of 2023 is when I left. Um love them. I think I mean I have so many good things to say about that clinic in general, it just wasn't where I my where my space was anymore. Um and yeah, so went off on my own then. Um I also in the meantime had also added uh another physician um who was working with me, was incredible, Dr. Melissa Hardy. Um, and she that name sounds so familiar. She's an incredible pediatrician, absolutely incredible.

Kelly: 56:24

Okay.

Michelle H. : 56:25

You might have seen her along the line in one of in a clinic somewhere. We're gonna talk something. We're gonna talk off air. Yeah, yeah. We'll figure it out. It sounds, it sounds so familiar, but um she's um she's yeah, she's absolutely incredible. She's taught in a lot of the um residency programs, and I'm just so grateful, grateful for um having her along the ride. And is she full-time? She um no, so she works at another or was working at another clinic actually um part-time as well, and then with me. Okay. And similar to sort of like on the side. Um, and then now she has uh decided to leave corporate medicine completely, and we're she's sort of under our wing and doing um full-on pediatric care as well. So not just fourth trimester, but also um seeing folks all the way through 20 years of old, 20 years old or so. So um full-on uh does she have like a virtual does she do stuff virtually? Um yes. Uh she goes by Dr. Mel on um I got it. Yeah, I'm trying to think what her handle is off the top of my head off Instagram, but we can put that into the show notes too. Yeah. Um, but so she so Juna Pediatrics is her now practice as well. Um, and so she does direct primary care, meaning that we have she people pay her a monthly membership. Okay, and they have direct access to her. So she only has a panel, she will only have a panel of about 150 patients, versus in the in the regular clinic system, it's 2,000 to 3,000. Um so you can imagine the access, the availability, the connectedness, the you know, sort of knowing she does home visits. Okay. Um, so it's really absolutely incredible.

Kelly: 58:06

And we're really talking about this because I've been having some major reservations about what this looks like moving forward for me at pediatric care for my daughter. Yeah. Um, and so I would love to learn a little bit more about that. Yeah, we'll talk to it.

Michelle H. : 58:22

It's it's it's again, so she's it's it's avoiding this burnout stuff, and it's also providing this care that's you know, that is so much more um about what people are looking for. They're looking for guidance and support and sort of away from this sort of patriarchal kind of um, you know, uh the way the system is right now.

Kelly: 58:44

This is a blessing in disguise right now because this is something that's been really heavily weighing on my heart. And so I'm like, okay. It can look different. Dr. Dr. Melissa Melissa. Yeah, Dr. Melissa Hardy is an incredible, yes, yes, yeah, yeah. So I I think um so interesting we can have some fun conversations off air about what this looks like, both on my end as somebody who's seeking, yeah, um, for my daughter, but then for me too. As a woman who's like, I've avoided going in for my annual visit because I'm like, I just have such a huge lack of trust now for the healthcare system. And it's sometimes it's like that that care and attentiveness is not felt anymore. Yes, I used to feel it years and years ago, but since like like in the woman who um was my OBGYN, um like pre and then post, she retired. Uh yeah. And I I'm wondering why she retired because it happened very suddenly. And I'm like, I'm wondering if she just had burnout herself, uh or some of these systems are pushing people out.

Michelle H. : 59:59

So there's there's like Clinics are getting shut down, and depending on what clinic system, some of them have actually she was here any dinner.

Kelly: 1:00:06

That one's not shutting down anytime soon. So I'm wondering if it had something to do with uh yeah, like her just I'm fed up with this.

Michelle H. : 1:00:15

Yeah, could be very well.

Kelly: 1:00:17

Um, and yeah, a lot of physicians are leaving because of that, which is yeah, we're sort of which is unfortunate because um there's also a lack of physicians too, right? Like there's such a a process that you as physicians go through for for education, yes, and when there's a loss in any way, shape, or form, whether it's death, yeah, right, exactly. Or it's I am so burned out retiring early. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just can't do this anymore. And the replacement is just not happening at the speed that it's necessarily needed. So there's such a lot of people.

Michelle H. : 1:00:56

Yeah, um, right, exactly. So there's there's I'm a little worried about who's gonna take care of me when I'm old, honestly. Children, yeah, yeah, right, yeah. But I mean, but also in the healthcare system, right? So like who's gonna, you know, that yeah, like whereas, you know, when I get sick, who's gonna be there and who's gonna be the one that, you know, um, hopefully I won't get sick very often. But um but in general, we you know, there's there's need that is there. Um so yeah, so we're sort of at that crossroads and we'll see what happens moving forward. But maybe I think that there's there's this shift that's happening, that there's a lot more doctors that are moving outside the system and knowing that they can start practices, yeah. Um, and I've uh been in contact with um and connected with a a large number of them in the Twin Cities here who are are moving into that space, which is really quite lovely um and exciting. So we're we're saying like no. I'm gonna keep you in my back pocket. Yeah, seriously. I mean, honestly, and uh like listeners too, like if you are there are people that you're like, I need some support. I mean, reach out, like I'm happy to get people connected. Um unfortunately, a lot of these doctors, it's hard to because they're not in the system, they're not getting referred to. Yeah. Um, and so it's hard, like it's hard to know who's out there, like who's, you know, because they're sort of these, you know, they're they're kind of hidden gems, you know.

Kelly: 1:02:14

As a doctor too, or a physician, it's not, it isn't a part of your day-to-day routine to go and sell yourself, right? Right. Or even have the the knowledge and sort of understanding of operations of a business, which is really what I want to segue into, is for you in in transitioning into entrepreneurship, you had your LLC and stuff. And so you sort of had your footholdings in in a part-time respect, right? But let's talk through this for the listeners, for for the individuals, the women who are listening right now, that are they're they're sort of nibbling on the edge of entrepreneurship, and they're very intimidated by what the process of building a business looks like. So let's talk through this. It's scary.

Michelle H. : 1:03:04

It's it's it is scary, and it is a wild ride, I will say. There's and there are months that you're like, wow, this is absolutely incredible. And then there's months that are like, okay, is everything going under it? I'm never gonna get it. Yeah, because this is going, you know, um, not gonna be a thing anymore next month. Um, and right, and I think that that's uh weathering those storms and being able to sort of you know move through that is challenging. And the and honestly, the only way that I've been able to do so is by connecting with other entrepreneurs.

Kelly: 1:03:37

Yeah.

Michelle H. : 1:03:38

Because they get it, you know, they're the people that so it's not I don't have those colleagues in the medical system that understand what I'm doing. It's the you know, the mom and pop shop down the street that understands more of what I'm doing. And it's um what's interesting to me is that really as an entrepreneur, 90% of what 99%, 95% of what we do is identical. Like we're having to, you know, deal with the you know, taxes and the you know, accounting stuff and the marketing and all the things of running a business. And we've got this like 5% or 10% niche that we're like sort of working in, right? Yeah. Whatever it is our our actual businesses. So being able to connect with other people who may not be doing exactly what I'm doing, but the vast majority of what I'm doing, they're dealing with too. So they're so we're getting, you know, referrals you know from each other and you know, recommendations and how do we deal with social media and how do you deal with you know all the different things, right? Yeah. Um, marketing for me has been the hardest, I think, because um, again, I sort of grew organically, word of mouth, and now I've got um there's actually four physicians who work with me now.

Speaker: 1:04:43

I've got um that's incredible.

Michelle H. : 1:04:45

Yeah, it's it's absolutely amazing, and I I love and adore each and every one of them. I think they're absolutely incredible. Um, and uh and they do such incredible work and they just their hearts are in the right space, and they're just they know they're they're such a blessing to their patients. Um and uh so with that, uh they one's in Rochester, so that's Leslie Coomer. Um Leslie Morris Coomer, she's incredible. So she's uh she's working in Rochester area, so she's seeing folks there. Um Dr. Katie Swanson is in Marine on St. Croix, so she's actually basically Western Wisconsin and Stillwater, kind of that area. Um, and then Dr. Laura Hagemeyer is in um like Brooklyn Park, Brooklyn Center, kind of north Anoka, kind of that area. Um, and then Melissa Hardy is in um Plymouth. So it's one of our radiuses that we see folks in. How about you?

Kelly: 1:05:38

What's your in Plymouth as well? Okay. Yeah, Northwest Metro. I mean, Plymouth is pretty, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Michelle H. : 1:05:46

I I tend to sort of she's a little bit more north, so she does like Medina and um Orno and kind of that. And even down into like um, I guess Excelsior. And I'm sort of South, I go down into South Minneapolis, okay um Edina, yeah. Kind of this area. So we're a little bit on each side of Plymouth. Um, but we cover for each other and all of that too. So um, but uh what was I saying with that? So it's so it's uh it's been really incredible working with all these different different uh physicians and who are who are, you know, but that I'm who are working with me, but also now I've got other people that I'm sort of responsible for. So I'm so now marketing is kind of a big thing, right? So now I feel like we have sort of outgrown the organic growth.

Kelly: 1:06:28

Yeah.

Michelle H. : 1:06:29

And now I need to soon move into the space of how do I because I what I hear the most often is I wish I had known about you. I wish I'd heard about and I'm like, okay, that's on me because you didn't hear about me because I'm not marketing.

Kelly: 1:06:41

Yeah.

Michelle H. : 1:06:42

If you know about it, no about you seriously, right? So, like that's so so I have to get into this mindset of I'm not I'm it's okay to sell ourselves and it's okay to put ourselves out there and kind of maybe look foolish or whatever in our minds, it's it seems like it. Um, and uh and just be vulnerable in that space. And um, because then the people who need you or want you are then able to find you and then they're able to, you know, utilize your services. Yeah. So we're doing a service to them by marketing, right? But that's a hard, it's a hard shift to for me and my brain to sort of move into. So and I don't understand marketing because I don't like I never again, I don't have a business background at all. So I'm how do you do that on social media? What are Google ads? What's Facebook ads? Like, what does that what does all this stuff sort of look like? Mailers, like whatever, like what totally there are so many different aspects to it, and how does that and then and then there's a lot of people that sort of I don't say prey on that, but it feels like there's a lot of that that comes in that like, oh, you should be doing this for $9.99 a month, you can be, you know, whatever. And I'm like, you know, is that really helpful or is it not? And is it, you know, you're just sort of throwing money at things?

Kelly: 1:07:55

I may have some resources for you, and again, this is we can talk about this off-air, but this is sort of the whole purpose of what I'm I would say, it's part of the purpose of what I'm doing with the podcast is I was mentioning this to my husband yesterday after we had an incredible call with an individual that will be on the podcast in the future, but can also serve as a vendor for us in our real estate business as well. Yeah, yeah. He was like, She brought up how she loves being a connector. And I resonated with that and I said, Yes, you know, something that I've thought about with what I want to continue to build with the podcast, and then just the community beyond that is being the connective tissue. Yeah. And my husband was like, You should consider yourselves builders. Ah and I was like, okay, I mean, sure, like you could you can sort of like do this, like, yes, this or that and that, like we're builders, but then we're also the connectors and the connective tissue. Yeah, absolutely. Too. So I I pride myself in like who I continue to have as guests on the podcast, and then going, who could they serve? Yes, or who could um who could who could they serve and then who could serve them as well. I love that. So, anyways, I yes, I hear you because the marketing aspect of it is I think there are many women who are gonna be listening to this part of the podcast interview and go, yes, that in itself. And I we always want to flock towards like what is the social media aspect of it, because it's free. We can do that for free, but it's not free because it's time to do that, and time is money as well. Not only time, but energy.

Michelle H. : 1:09:53

I find that it it sucks my positive energy out, and I because then you're on it and you're on it, and I'm getting connected to like the likes and the things, and like, you know, and and sort of it it doesn't it's not a not a positive space in many aspects. And then um, and then I'm like, oh, why didn't you know, why didn't this not get as many likes? And it, you know, you sort of feel and it so much of it has to do with just the algorithms and all these things. It's nothing to do with completely outside of your control, right? Um and uh and then it feels like, oh, well, I should be a presence on there because there's so much bad information, you know, that's being perpetuated in that space. So, like in some ways, I almost feel like an obligation to have some you know, some accurate information, some facts to you know, put behind things because people are looking for that, and that's where where people are. But you know, so yeah, it's not it's not free. It's not free at all. Um, so how do you where you know where's that balance and how do you kind of find um what makes sense?

Kelly: 1:10:58

Well, what has that looked like for you so far? And and um, you know, above and beyond that, I think that we know that this is an area of opportunity for you right now. And so I think that that's a good like ask of the listeners, like who who could potentially serve this. I already had mentioned that I think I might have a few connections for you just in the Rolodex of guests that I've had on the podcast, but there's nothing wrong with like putting out there onto this interview specifically, like this is a need, this is what we're seeking. And um, you know, it's it's to emphasize the story behind what you're doing, right? Because storytelling is so important. And believe me, I like I understand that there's there's a story behind the mission of the podcast. I struggle with that too. Yeah, right. I struggle with like how do I continue to market, right? So you're not alone in that boat, but like partnering with somebody who can where there's alignment, it fits the budget because that's really important too. Yes, exactly. And can properly emphasize your story so that it resonates with individuals and they go, Yes, I'm pregnant and I need that.

Michelle H. : 1:12:19

Yes, exactly.

Kelly: 1:12:19

Yes, and I need it because of my mental health. I need it because I want to properly be attended to after I have my child and not only have the focus on my child because mama is important also.

Michelle H. : 1:12:34

That's the thing. You need it because you deserve it. Right, right. Like it's we we deserve to have care and compassion and support in a time that is so vulnerable. Um, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so there's there's yeah, these sort of spaces that I'm moving into that the other thing that we're trying to do is um become part of a benefits package for businesses, right? So like a business will say, like, this is you know, you get your health benefits or whatever, but also if you or your partner has a baby, you can have this care and we'll pay for it. So again, how do you get into that space, right? Yeah. Um, so who do you connect with? Is it HR people? Is it brokers? Is it who? You know, like who is it that um, but yeah, so you think about like, you know, all these different companies um, I think are trying to find innovative ways to support their employees, right? Um, especially families. Like they're, you know, they have these um, you know, mothers are leaving the work or birthing people are leaving the workplace quite frequently and quite at a quite high rate because the lack of supports, they're not getting the support that they need. Um, so how do we we can combat that? We can help employers retain and um and bring in talent then by having us as a benefit.

Kelly: 1:13:50

Okay, curious, how about the individuals that you serve that own their own businesses?

Michelle H. : 1:13:58

Yeah, yeah.

Kelly: 1:13:59

What does that look like as well?

Michelle H. : 1:14:00

So different? Um different is similar, right? So it's so what we can do is because we were we also are entrepreneurs, so we know then how to how what does that look like? How do we help get you back into doing what you love and doing your your you know your um workspace while also having, you know, your babies. Um so how do we best support your physical and mental health so then you can be optimal then when you sort of move into the job space? Um so and access. So we have, you know, you can text us, we can come in between hours. I've met people at their workspace to help treat them for mastitis, for example. And so they don't have to leave their workspace even. Like they're they can have the support they need where where they're um where they're at. And so they don't need to, you know, take a whole half day or a full day off of work because the then they're able to have the support that they need. Um, you know, there's there's a lot of things. We're we're able to um, you know, we're we're available via text message so people can message us directly quickly and get answers quickly, so they're not having to sort of figure out like what do I do in this situation, you know, um uh so that that becomes sort of a burden for people. Um, and then like the uh, you know, if they're creating their own, so if they have an uh S-corp, for example, they have their own benefits packages, they could have their own benefits for themselves, that then they could it would be a write-off, right? Like sure it would just be, you know, because they're the sole, um, the sole owner or whatever they could be able to have that be part of their their benefits. Um, or if they have got a small, you know, group of folks, then they could provide the benefit for fans. Fascinating.

Kelly: 1:15:33

You got my mind reeling right now.

Michelle H. : 1:15:35

There's there's a lot of things. And then on the even for employers that then have people coming back to work, how do we support the employer then who has these employees coming back? So what you know, what does the space need to be like? What is the, you know, the um how do you support their mental health? How do you support their um them being a parent? What does that flexibility you know look like potentially? And how, but then how do you also sort of um do that around the restrictions of the what the job is? So we can help them help the employers actually be better employers, the employees are coming back to work. So that then they're again retention, right? Yeah. Um and and better productivity because now they're not worried about the health of themselves or their baby, and they're they're sort of working in optimal, you know, an optimal space as opposed to just just barely hanging on, you know, just barely being able to get back there. And they don't the last place they want to be is at work. So we're able to sort of work through that with people so that then they have the support, the resources, all the things that both sides need to be able to best, you know, sort of successfully, you know, make this transition.

Kelly: 1:16:42

Have you already started to do this, or is this something you envision?

Michelle H. : 1:16:47

This is something I envision. I'm working on trying to connect with companies at this point. Like this is I have the whole layout. I know exactly what um, well, and the other exactly in my mind, it seems like they would want.

Speaker 3: 1:16:58

Yeah.

Michelle H. : 1:16:58

But the other thing is we can be flexible. We can say, what do you think you need? Right. So there's, I mean, we could have a half clinics days, half-day clinic space on their site if they've got a big enough um, you know, population of employees. We could there's there's we could create mom groups within their workspace and helps help facilitate those. There, we could do well child visits on site. Like we can like there's some, like they've got a, you know, some some places like I don't know, Best Buy has like a child care center on site, right? We could do well visits right at the child care center. Like it would, they don't need to then take a day off of work and go to, you know, have to go to the doctor or whatever. We can do things right there. Wow. I mean, you the the the sort of space and ideas are limitless. It's just figuring out what you know where those pain points are for both the employers and employees and working with that to find something that sort of fits.

Kelly: 1:17:47

Interestingly enough, you talk about pain points. I bet when you do this, when it happens, yeah, and the manifestor, absolutely you're going to have your own pain points and how that growth happens because it, you know, there's only how many four, five of you total.

Speaker 3: 1:18:05

Yep.

Kelly: 1:18:07

And I think about how that that sort of stretches you beyond your limits too. So what the growth could look like from that, I mean, this is amazing. And I love what you're considering, but I, you know, we we put our CEO hats on.

Michelle H. : 1:18:23

Yeah, absolutely.

Kelly: 1:18:24

Too, and have to understand the impacts of what that looks like, positive impacts, but and the struggles behind it too.

Michelle H. : 1:18:31

The struggles behind it totally. Um, and I have physicians that are coming with me, coming up to me monthly saying, What do you do? How can I join? So I've I'm I've got a list of you know, physicians who want to do this who I just don't have the patience for because I don't have not paid the number of clients page. Right. C E right. Um, who uh you know, I just don't have the number yet. So like yet. So when that when that happens, then I can pull from that that pool and um start adding more more docs on board. So I I have sort of minimal concern about that piece of it. I really think that we're gonna be able to definitely tolerate and definitely um expand very, very well with that. Of course, it's gonna be bumps along the road. But um my other part of it though that I'm a little struggling with is, you know, I went into this to do the work and now I'm becoming the CEO, more and more the CEO and managing. Things are changing. Right. And so I'm working more on the business and less in the business, which I'm exploring and seeing how I feel about it. Um, but it's it's a shift because I again I didn't go into business school. Like I didn't go into business, I went went into medicine. I wanted to work with people. So I'm now having this uh very sort of delicate balance of working with a select few of patients and then more um sort of on the business side.

Kelly: 1:19:56

What's the equivalent of um we spoke about matrescence earlier on this interview? The equivalent of that as an entrepreneur, yeah, that is transitioning from being in the business and doing like the reason, the sole reason that they got into business versus then going into more of this like business role in that transition. Like we need to figure out coin a term. Coin a term.

Michelle H. : 1:20:20

There's gotta be, yes, yes. I don't know.

Kelly: 1:20:23

There is, and I think too, I think entrepreneurscence or something.

Michelle H. : 1:20:27

I don't know like I was like entrepreneurscence, but that's not right. Yeah, something shorter.

Kelly: 1:20:32

Or it's like it's like it.

Michelle H. : 1:20:38

It has to be like inflammation to me.

Kelly: 1:20:40

I know it has to mean it has to be something uh like matrescence essence. Yeah, essence. Because it's or something, yeah. Yeah, contra essence. Yeah. Hey, I love it. Did we just make up with it? I think we just did. I think we just did. You're there first. We are gonna be billionaires. Billionaires. I love it. Okay, so I want to make a little bit of a ship a shift, a pivot. Um, we and actually it's sort of in the vein of what we were talking about just now with this trans, you know, the the transition of like going from being in this space of working in the business to now like putting on a different hat. And I think when we talked via Zoom, I might have met mentioned the interesting um like phenomena of birthing a business. Yes. And how that sort of translates into matrescence as well. And so I don't exactly know where I want to go with this, but I'm wondering if you've had any um more thoughts about that.

Michelle H. : 1:21:50

Yeah, well, I uh even on my website, I I say the you know, our birth story. Like it's it is the birth of our business was definitely it was a birth. A story. It was a story, yeah. Um, and actually the the original, um, like my official name for the business is actually Olive and Hazel Health, which is my my babies. Um that Iavenly babies. My heavenly babies, yeah, exactly. Um so in many ways, like again, so I birthed them earthside based, you know, sort of through this, right? And um, so yeah, so I definitely think there's there's a story there, and it's it's this evolution and this, you know, this journey through you know what I originally thought it would look like to what it is now. And honestly, it's very similar to what I mean as far as like the practice and what we do in the practice. Um, so we see, you know, we we take care of people postpartum, where we come in the home, we take care of the moms and the babies, they don't need to go into the clinic at all. Um, we're able to, you know, reduce emergency department visits because we were able to, you know, connect with people there. Um, I think eventually we'll be able to have some data showing that we're preventing maternal deaths. Um, I do I just think that there's so many things that we're doing. That's really lovely. Um one thing we're transitioning to now is uh working to be in network with insurance. Um we haven't been up until this point.

Kelly: 1:23:07

Okay.

Michelle H. : 1:23:07

That has been a bear and something that I you don't say.

Kelly: 1:23:12

Yeah.

Michelle H. : 1:23:12

I mean, I uh sort of thinking through. I mean, uh one of the things you'd asked, you know, sort of in our initial stuff was um, is have you ever thought about you know quitting and being done? And honestly, through this process 100%. The insurance side the insurance side of it. So the insurance side has put me through the ringer. Um and talk about it. Yeah, it's it's it is wild what um the how corrupt and the the sort of level of fraud and um and how to even just go into getting connected for, you know, how getting in network and becoming you know contracted to accept insurance. Um, and like the amount of money I've had to spend and time and energy and all these things just to be able to accept insurance so that people can have access to care, um, which is what where I've sort of moved into and and wanted to be able to provide. I want to be able to have more people have access to our services, um, not only for that for access and for care, but also to be able to get some data on that and be able to um to eventually potentially publish on what we're doing, like maybe maybe shift our whole system into providing this care more for um for more people. And in order to do that, you have to show that it's making a difference. Even though I know it's making a difference. I know, you know, hand and foot. I mean, we got better lactation rates, we've got higher um mental, you know, mental health scores, we have, you know, less emergency department visits, we have all these benefits that are coming out of it. Um, but you know, we have to show the data on that. So eventually we'll have to show and do some studies with that. And in order to do that, we have to care for people from all spectrums of life, right? So that has to do with insurance aspect. And um, so yeah, I'm I'm it's been wild, and we're not there yet. It's been a year, and I've been trying to get these contracts, and I'm hoping by the end of the year we will, but that's just getting the contracts, and I'm not even sure what that's gonna look like once we actually start filing for reimbursement and getting claims and getting things denied and not having um not getting it paid for. And so we'll see. I mean, but it's wow, it is it's not awesome. I'll say though, yeah.

Kelly: 1:25:22

Yeah, you I don't even want to go down this rabbit hole to be frank with you. I just want to like sort of blanket statement that it's so unfortunate that the that money is more important than the livelihoods of human beings. Yes, that is 100% what we're doing really sort of encapsulates the the the essence of where our landscape of of well par particularly the United States looks like right now, and there's gotta be a crumbling at some point because it just can't sustain like this anymore. I mean, it's uh it's unobtainable at some points for human beings to be able to have access. And you know, for individuals like yourself that are advocating and advocating the best way that you know how, but then that involves you as an entrepreneur to put money into that advocating.

Michelle H. : 1:26:28

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's wild to me that I have to like spend so much time and energy and money on trying to provide a service for people that benefits that, you know, like it just doesn't like and it's not the thing is is it it in the grand scheme of things, things it's not actually a contract that I have with the insurance companies. It's the insurance companies have contracts with their members, so the the patients themselves. And so those contracts are what then dictates whether or not I'm gonna get paid, which is there's no other business that has some some middleman like that that is you know making you know the sort of millions upon billions of dollars, billions and billions and billions, yeah.

Kelly: 1:27:07

And and just raking people over the coals, anyways. I can't because this is not exactly not even solve, but exactly we can't solve it. Seriously, that that is something that you're able to move through and move through successfully, and that there's like these barriers that can just be broken down so that there can be accessibility through what you're providing, which is absolutely incredible. We're gonna make another pivot. Yeah, love it, love it. Okay, so I'm all over the place. Um I'm curious what faith has looked like for you through all of this. As a physician, you know, there's the science backing and all of that. And so I have to imagine that there's been some tension points at some point or another with what that's looked like for you. Maybe not. I have no idea. So talk me through and talk the listeners through what faith has looked like in all of this.

Michelle H. : 1:28:05

Yeah, I think um sort of the best analogy I have with that is that I when I am working with um families and especially um sort of mothers or brothers, what I what I talk a lot about is trusting themselves and trusting their babies, which is really hard to do. Um because it feels like everyone else is telling you what you should be doing. Lots of you know, unsolicited advice, you can't do that, you can do that, don't do that, you're gonna break the whatever, like all these things. Whatever. Um, and uh and what that comes down to is really tuning into themselves and tuning into their baby and and and acknowledging like does is my baby responding to this and what I'm doing, and is it um in a positive way and does it like it and you know, and it's sort of good, or is it not really working? And it feels like that there's tension, it feels like there's you know this space of um you know trying to force, right? Or again, or does it feel good in my body or not? Right. Um, so same, so the same thing with the business, because again, it's my baby. So um I come back to trusting myself and trusting my baby, my business. So as I'm going through and as I'm making decisions, like I sort of have faith in, you know, what leaning into that. Like so when I do something, whatever it is, when I make a decision about something, then I I lean into hey, is how is my business responding? Is it in a positive way? Does it feel like I'm forcing something? Does it feel like I'm sort of pushing it? Does it feel like it feels good to me? Does it feel like it feels good to the business? Or is that um and then trusting that what will come out of that is good then? If you know, if it's sort of making sense, not to go back to the insurance stuff, but I don't know that that's happening in this space. So we'll see. Um but uh and that's sort of where I'm struggling, I think, the most with it, and that's where I feel like. So you know, it's like, oh, just forget it. Done. Um, yeah.

Kelly: 1:30:03

And then the the better, better side of you is like, no, this is important.

Michelle H. : 1:30:09

This is important. I think it's it's maybe it's just a it's it's a rough patch, it's you know, I've got some barriers to overcome. It's it's I love Brittany Brown, it's a fucking first time, you know, it's an FF um FLP, right? So it's you know, when it's an FFP and um and that's hard, is it just hard? And I'm just I just need to get through it. I need to move through that challenge. And again, trust at the other at the other ends of the the, you know, that other other side of things is gonna be better and we're gonna find out, you know, and I won't have to do this again. I'm sort of like move through it because it I you do one, you know, something for the first time only once, like after that, then you're then you're yeah, you sort of learn from it, you can move forward. Um so that's where it I think it comes for me is this space of like how do then how do I continue to trust that things are gonna work out that the the way that they were meant to work out? Maybe it was different than what I envisioned it, that's okay, right? And we've even talked about the manifesting things. Um, so putting it out there in the world, like what do I see um as an end point? And maybe that journey there looks really wonky, and maybe it looks very different than what I expected, but we're gonna get there, whatever that is. So, um, so yeah, so that's where my faith sort of comes into the business aspect is is a huge part of that trust and really, you know, feeling through it.

Kelly: 1:31:35

Well, and I love that you made this point about how the way that we envision the way our business is gonna go versus how it actually turns out sometimes, um, is to have malleability in all of it, right? Um, I have spoken to this with the the gals in my mastermind group and I've I've talked about it with my accountability partner, and I'm like, I I am personally going through how to be malleable in you know being in business with my husband and then being in this space of podcasting and how I envisioned the podcast to go versus the reality of how it's going. Right. Right. And I mean it frankly, it's it's going better than I ever imagined, but I also have visions of what it's gonna look like. And don't we all yes, yes, it's it's alright? Just have these, you know, these visions and these dreams. And for you, it sounds like manifesting is a part of that process for you. And for me, I sort of do this like I I envision the positivity in all of it, yeah, but faith for me is God and prayer and just really leaning into that aspect to kind of guide my decisions, yeah, right. And it's it's pretty powerful, no matter what how you cut the cloth in this circumstance, when you put positivity towards something, how the momentum can keep going.

Michelle H. : 1:33:19

And trust, right? And trusting and support, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think that there's there's so much to be said about that. And like, how do you um it's sometimes it's so far out, like your your vision is so far out that you just there's you can't there's no like you know, line that you can possibly see that's gonna connect that. And that's where that faith comes in, that there's there's something in there that's going to happen that you're you have no idea why it happened. And maybe it was something that you did 10 years ago that's gonna make that connection there, which is wild because that happens all the time for me. That I'm like, thank goodness I did that thing back then and I had no idea. And now this is it it sort of allowed me to have this um this connection.

Kelly: 1:34:03

So I've quoted Steve Jobs multiple times on the on podcast interviews, but it's like, and I'm paraphrasing, but he had he had quoted about um you can only connect the dots backwards. That's my words. Oh my gosh, yes. And it's so applicable in this circumstance to what you're speaking to. So okay, yet another pivot because I want to honor and respect your time. Um, I want to start to land the plane. I do want to fold in motherhood into all of this too, because you know, this podcast is called Reclaiming Your Hue, and it it's about us as mothers sort of um reclaiming an identity for ourselves. And I am curious what that has looked like for you personally as you had transitioned into entrepreneurship and how you're harmonizing that with motherhood.

Michelle H. : 1:34:56

Yeah, I think that there's um when I was in the system, I was not, I did not feel like I was a good mother. I was coming home stressed. I was coming home that there I felt like energy was sucked from me. I felt like I was, I had nothing left to give when I'd come home to my kiddos. Um, so that was really hard, right? And but now I'm in a space where I'm in my iki guy. Are you familiar with that term? Have we talked about that? It's Japanese. Yes, yes. So you may have yeah. Um memory. Yeah. It's um it's where your, it's like a Venn diagram, where your um passion overlaps with what you're good at, with what the world needs, with what you can get paid for. Yes. So this like center circle of all of those sort of combine. Um, and when you're in your Ikigai, when you're in your space of, you know, um energy only flows then. Like it's just you know, like you, I get energy every day from my patients. I feel excited and positive and connected. And um, and so I come home a better mother because I'm happier. I'm happy, I feel like I'm I'm where I'm supposed to be. I'm feeling I'm I'm working in in my element.

Kelly: 1:36:06

Yeah.

Michelle H. : 1:36:06

Um, and and also I have the flexibility and some, you know, there's some other, you know, benefits to that. But um, you know, I just I think that the it the more of us who can work in that space and be, and and not everyone can, but you know, there's there's different things that sort of um uh hinder that. But um, but the more of us that that can work in that space and really work in that energy, we're just we're it it's inevitable you're gonna be a better parent. It's inevitable that you're gonna be a better partner, it's inevitable that you're gonna sort of feel like yourself to the greatest extent you possibly could, right? And then um, and then with that, and and whenever I sort of introduce myself, I I say I'm an I'm an entrepreneur, I'm an advocate, I'm a person, I love chocolate. I like these I'm a I'm a human for darker milk. Dark. I'm a dark, dark, yes. I'm a dark. Um, and then I'm a mother, and then I'm a physician. And so these other sort of labels that you know the sort of society has on us, um, those are those are other parts of me, but I I am a human and I have these, I'm an adventurer, I'm you know, there's all these other things about me that um that I do need to stand tall in and I need to sort of acknowledge and um and and put out to the world and really need to remind the world and myself of consistently. Um and uh and so yeah, so that's sort of the rounds of it all.

Kelly: 1:37:35

All right, so you had mentioned this will be sort of the the last question, meat and potatoes question for us to start landing the plane. You had mentioned the challenges that you were experiencing, you are currently facing and experiencing, like in the raw real right now, which is everything that's happening with the insurance, and I can imagine. And it like, believe me, listeners, I am like fuming inside, even thinking about it. It just frustrates me thinking about what you have to go through. In parallel to that, I'm curious if there has um whether it's through this experience of how everything is shaping up with the insurance stuff, or um in another point in time, if there was like a dark moment, like the deep valley. We talk about the peaks and valleys on this in on this podcast. I'm curious uh if there has been a deep valley that you're willing to take the listeners to and how you have moved through that.

Michelle H. : 1:38:46

Yeah, I think that most recently was um as of going through all this insurance stuff and sort of navigating all of this, we've also had at the same time this shift in um in the political climate where I think people were very sort of um held on their the economy sort of was shifting, and so people were holding on to their money and there weren't they they didn't want to pay for wellness things, right? That things were extraneous or whatever. Um, and so there was sort of this this um sort of a bigger dip in uh we went we were doing sort of the best we have ever been, and then we sort of came down and was like, oh my gosh, what is happening here? Um and at the same time my dad ended being being very sick with cancer and ended passing away around in in the midst of all of that. And so it just felt like, what am I doing? You know, like it was like all this energy was like sort of not aligned, like it just felt like it was everything was all over the place. And um, so it was it was uh definitely a huge struggle. And then after he passed, I had a lot of um a lot of challenge with a lot of panic attacks and things around the energy that I had put into supporting him, um, didn't know where to go. Like it was sort of like floating and and you know, moving in my brain and all this um in a not healthy way, um, while at the same time I wasn't feeling very grounded in my business. So it was like all of this all at once. And um, and so that was a huge struggle. And I'm coming out of that now. He he died in April. Um, and um so it's uh we're we're moving through it now. This month we had the best month we've ever had. So like it's we're I know that there's this like these ebbs and flows that happen, but it's hard when there's several things that happen all at once, you know, sort of in the same space. Um and you know, again, I sort of leaned into my you know, fellow entrepreneurs, other, you know, other people that my colleagues of people that you know sort of know this space and had more, you know, wisdom in what that can look like. And um, we're moving through it. So yeah.

Kelly: 1:40:46

And did you had you talked through sort of this phenomena of, you know, not only am I experiencing what I am with the business, but I'm also having these personal components. And did you ask, like, what's your perspective on this? Have you have any of you gone through this? Not no one's experience is gonna be exactly the same, but to speak to the loss of a parent or the loss of a family member and also having to navigate being a business owner too, because the business has to keep going. Yeah, yep, yeah. But you're you're on this other side managing through a different kind of stress.

Michelle H. : 1:41:35

Yeah, no, and I think that was I think the biggest thing that they sort of emphasize is that we're all gonna go through times where we the business can't be the number one, and you're having to sort of focus on something else. It's an ancillary thing and or the side, whatever it is. And um, and so trusting again, coming back to the trust, like trusting that the business can flow, you don't have to push it forward, it can just sort of be coast for a little while. Like you can coast and that can be that can be okay, and then you can come back to it when you have that energy, that space that makes more sense. Um, so it doesn't necessarily have to be the death, it can be uh of a loved one, it can be a move, it can be, you know, there's a baby, it can be you know, all these other shifts that can happen. Um, and those you're gonna have times when that that business is gonna coast and you're gonna be gonna have to be okay with that. Totally. Which is hard for you know type A personality folks that are just like drive, drive, drive, like push, push, push, you know. Are you type A? Oh, absolutely. Yes. One hundred percent.

Kelly: 1:42:31

I can confirm. Yes, yes, yeah. Okay, thank you for um sharing some of the vulnerability around that. I can't imagine that that was easy, but these are true realities that we as entrepreneurs experience, right? And it's no one experiences exactly the same, like I had mentioned, but to speak to loss in any way, shape, or form, or just a transition to what you were speaking to as well, like moving that's stressful. Yes, yeah, having a child, that's stressful, yeah, beautiful, but stressful. Just energy in a different space, yes, time. Yeah, so that's okay. Absolutely. I have thoroughly enjoyed this. We are gonna start to land the plane, and so I always love to ask what's a piece of advice you would give a younger version of yourself, knowing all that you know in this moment.

Speaker 3: 1:43:29

Hmm.

Michelle H. : 1:43:30

Um, I again trusting the process. I think there's nothing that would have changed along the way because so many of those pieces needed to happen in order to like sort of, you know, again, connecting the dots, like um come into place. And you know, people read my bio or they'll they'll talk to me and they're like, You like you couldn't be working in a better, like this is exactly where you're meant to be because you've done all these different things that sort of have pulled you into this, yeah. This one, and there's nobody else in the world that has the same training as me because I've done random things throughout, you know, that sort of just brought me here. Um, and uh, and some of it was during medical school, some was some of it was during, you know, like undergrad. Like there's there, you know, I would never have known that this was where this is all gonna come together. Um and yet, you know, here we are. And so, you know, like taking one step, taking that first step is really always it's like that's what I when I started the business, it was like just one step a day, whatever it was, just do one thing. And it'll eventually it'll all sort of come together. One thing each day. And it could be sending one email, it could be signing one document, it could be just looking up one resource. But as long as I'm doing one thing each day, the tiniest little thing, it's just gonna come together eventually. And so yeah, I did.

Kelly: 1:44:45

Amazing. Yeah. On the heels of that, what's a piece of advice you would give a woman who is um maybe in their first couple of years of entrepreneurship right now? And this is like the piece of advice that you wish was spoken to you during that time frame.

Michelle H. : 1:45:05

Um, yeah, I think coming back to that, like just one step in front of the other. Really, there's coming back, like really truly um don't feel like you have to do it all. Like you you're never gonna be able, there's it, it feels it feels too big when you first start. Um, and it can feel like, wow, there's no way I can pull this all together.

Speaker: 1:45:23

Yeah.

Michelle H. : 1:45:24

And really just come like when you break it down into the tiny pieces, it it's not so hard, you know. Um, and the the failures or the things that like have gone wrong have gone right then because they sort of lead you into the other direction that then it ends up being the path that you were supposed to be on. So there's not you can't go wrong because going wrong is actually helpful.

Kelly: 1:45:46

Like it's good. Failures or going the wrong direction, and then all of a sudden realizing not exactly what I wanted to do is is the it's a a way to be able to pivot and pivot into the proper direction that you know. Exactly. Like, gosh, I wish I would have done that. Yes, however, yes, exactly. It's interesting. I have there's been many guests, many women who have been on, and the the piece of advice they would give a younger version of themselves versus a piece of advice, it oftentimes is very similar. Yeah, they're very much parallel to one another. So thank you. Who would be a good connection for you?

Michelle H. : 1:46:26

Oh, that's such a um I what I would again coming back to if there is um a business out there that's looking for us to be a part of their benefits package, like just the first one, I know that we would be able to, you know, sort of rock their world. Um and that's you know, or a or a broker that sort of knows how to navigate this space. Um yeah, so that's that's it's a little it's outside my reach that I don't, it's outside my bubble, and so I'm trying to figure out how to how to navigate that. Okay, wonderful.

Kelly: 1:47:01

How can our lovely listeners get connected to you or find you?

Michelle H. : 1:47:05

Yeah, so um connected through our website www.fourth F-O-U-R-T-H Trimester, T-R-I-M-E-S-T-E-R docdo com. Um I am on social media working to be more so uh at uh yeah, fourth trimesterdock.com. Or not dot not fourth trimester doc dot com. So fourth trimester doc. Um I'm on on um LinkedIn, I'm on uh um TikTok, I'm on Instagram, Facebook. Wow. So we're we're around. Um I do I trying to do this uh this sort of um series of the shit no one warns you about postpartum. So it's all the the wild stuff that our bodies go through that nobody sort of warns you about. So um it can be incredible keep putting that out there. Um we can be like, I mean, I've got hundreds of ideas, I just gotta put it on there.

Kelly: 1:48:00

Uh so yeah. So that's where we are. I'll make sure to add all of that into the show notes. Truly such an honor and a privilege to have you on here to share your wisdom. So thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you so much for yeah, having me in your space. I appreciate it. You're so welcome. I hope you have a great day. Thank you. Take care. Thanks.